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View Full Version : Is DDO A Grind Game, or Not?



Velexia
04-16-2010, 05:55 AM
It would seem that DDO is in a mid-life crisis, and has forgotten it's roots... or maybe we are just under entirely new management that has decided to take DDO in a "new" direction...

So, is DDO a game which has mechanics that promote/require grinding, or a game with mechanics that deter/prevent grinding?

If I leave anything out, please feel free to add your own.

Prevention and Deterrence
There is a bonus for completing a quest for the first time on a particular difficulty. This suggests to players that they will be rewarded for not getting stuck in a rut, grinding.

There is a penalty for repetition of the same quest, which does not diminish over time. Eventually repetition will result in 0 xp awarded. Again, this deters grinding.

Looting the same chests excessively results in a reduced reward, and then no reward which lasts for a week. This suggests that one should not grind as well, but allows for an eventual return to old stomping/looting grounds.

Promotion and Requirements
In the last two years, there has been a trend with quests, requiring a player to run the same quest an excessive number of times. Reaver's Refuge, Meridia/Shroud, Necropolis IV, Amrath, Inspired Quarter, Dreaming Dark... in fact, it seems that every quest since Gianthold, which was on the very edge itself, has required and promoted the grind.

In Reaver's Refuge players are given a reason to run a series of quests, 4 total between 4 and 400 times, give or take. The system is completely based upon luck, with fairly poor odds if the player is trying for something specific. If the player runs the same quest 26 times before finally getting the desired effect for ONE of three tiers... they are experiencing a dichotomy of incentives. On one side they are being deterred by not receiving experience points, and eventually loot, and on the other they are continuously being lured into trying again for another chance which may simply end in a failure, nothing gained, time lost. I personally spent 5 hours today in the Reaver's Refuge attempting to finally complete my Dragontouched Armor once and for all... and came out completely emptty handed. No XP, and no completed Dragontouched item to show for it. 600 Draconic Runes spent, 9-12 Prey on the Hunter quests run, and 2 Stealer of Souls quests run...and NOTHING to show for it. Nothing at all.

Next comes Meridia and the Shroud. Here the players are given incentive to run each of 5 quests possibly 4-5 times per item they wish to make a "Blank" for. Then they are required to run the Shroud raid an average of 18 times to create a decent item, or 36 times to create a good item (Single vs Double Imbue). They are also required to run at LEAST 20 times to cleanse an item if they decide they want to wear two items. By the completion of the first item, the character has long since stopped receiving experience points, and is simply grinding away, trying to create a single item from this Raid.

Necropolis III, Tome Pages, Shield Fragments, Tapestry Shreds, Sigil Pieces, and then a Raid which drops loot as per normal. This felt like maybe a step in the right direction... as it takes less runs overall and you are less likely to hit the 0 xp awarded mark on any particular quest.

Amrath, boot pieces... with such impossibly low drop rates for items required for Raid Participation that bind to character, this is a particularly bad grind mechanic... but then, is it as bad as that of Reaver's Refuge or the Shroud?

Inpspired Quarter, collect three shards or one disc, collect four discs for one chest, loot one chest for one chance.

Dreaming Dark, complete various quests several times over to receive 6 of each of 4 shards...

Epic. Run a quest multiple times at maximum level (thus no XP) and attempt to collect tokens, scrolls, augment crystals, what have you... to upgrade items you may or may not have.

True Reincarnation, play your favorite character from scratch again, now with 75% more XP required! Do it again for double the pain! Why not go for completionist?
__________________________________________________ _______________

I remember a time when I once said... "You know why I love DDO...? Because I never feel like I am grinding." That DDO is dead.

Is this a grinding game, or is it not, because if it is... I may just leave and never come back again... and stop recommending that my friends try it out, and come join the server on which I play...

Velexia
04-16-2010, 05:57 AM
Ah yes, and why is this in suggestions...? I am suggesting that something be done to fix the mixed signals we are getting. Either A: Remove the incentives to grind, or B: Remove the penalties for grinding.

I would prefer A, but I doubt we will see either A or B, honestly.

Danmor
04-16-2010, 06:39 AM
/signed

A MMO will always require some grind, which is ok.
But the ridiculously grind-tastic stuff like epic or Reaver's Refuge is definitely going over the top.

When you add something new, please make it less grind.

Buggss
04-16-2010, 06:44 AM
/very signed..

DDO has always tried to stand out from other mmo's by avoiding grinding as much as possible but it's heading in that direction.

Bacab
04-16-2010, 07:24 AM
100% agree

Though I do not mind the TR grind...I like playing my favorite toons...but with raid loot the second(third) time around...
BUT it starts to wear off at lvl 16-17ish when you realize you are essentially going to run out of content. The TR grind is not bad through the low levels to the mid levels. But the lack of lvl 20 content kinda roughs ya up a bit. Repeating quest at -60% almost forces you to drink XP pots (cha-ching). And the idea that you HAVE to run things N/N/N/N/N/H/E to not run out of content is silly. I do not even mind N/H/E...but come on, 5 Normal runs...

I think some more lvl 17-20 content would be nice.

Dingdongtudelu
04-16-2010, 07:33 AM
I agree.

I came to ddo, after grinding my brains out on wow, vowing to never play any game that got you hooked on repeating something ad nauseam to get a particular item that made your character more powerful, until a new patch got released that got you started all over again.

I came to ddo to quest, in dungeons. I play casually, I like to log on, enter a dungeon, and be immersed in the whole d&d experience by having a dungeon narrator that guides you through your adventure. I loved hearing that narration voice for the first time. It was such a refreshing concept from any other game. It made you feel like you actually were that little dwarf with his crappy armour and flaming axe, trying to fight off hordes of kobolds, while at the same time your DM was describing just how wet and foul smelling that sewer was that you were crawling around in. I loved having to actually COMPLETE a dungeon to get any rewards at all.

It feels like that kind of development was too rough to manage, and that more addictive concepts from other mmorpgs were implemented to keep the playerbase occupied. Slayers, rare spawns (basically outdoor areas feel very grindy, except the explorer touch), item crafting, etc...

I would love to see actual roleplay crafting. Grabbing your chunk of starmetal that you retrieved from that fallen dragon's hoard, venturing deep into the mountain, dragging along the cart of equipment you need to craft your greatsword with, vanquishing a huge demon to access the anvil and making your weapon. There would be no need to repeatedly do the dungeon to get the items. Your rewards, be they questrewards or a static item in the dungeon, would load 100%. The run is just so incredibly hard, it takes near perfect coordination to get it done. People would die, few would succeed, but the ones that succeed would have something to show for it. You could look at that dwarf with his huge flaming sword, or the elf with his glowing crown, and say: "Woha, that's one tough #@$#"%.", instead of 'jesus, that guy just spent 30 days, repetitively entering, spamming to the monster, chopping its head off and recalling'.

I think the whole roleplay aspect is key here, which is directly oposite to the random factor. The more random a drop gets, the more repetition is needed, which kills the roleplay experience. If you were sure to get an item, the adventure would feel more like a quest than a task. The problem is, the more content you add that focuses on running something once, the less times people would actually do the quest, which results in more pressure on the development team to release more and more content.

This is where profitability comes into play. A good solution was implemented in the way of having different difficulty settings, and adding the bonus xp for completing it the first time. Perhaps that chunk of starmetal you find on epic settings would simply be a chunk of ore on casual settings, resulting in less of a powerful item (perhaps even both in statistics as visual effects). In any case, solutions like the difficulty settings are far more desirable than the grinding ones, in my humble opinion atleast. Note that this primarily concerns endgame dungeons, as having to develop regular dungeons like this would be far too timeconsuming, which reduces profitability. It also kills your gaming experience, as you find yourself with an incredible challenge to gain that small chunk of xp on the way to level 20. I can already see the frustration among players grouping with a PUG, unable to complete 99% of the quests...

Endgame, or epic dungeons atleast, are for capped characters, and I hear plenty of them shouting that they want a "greater challenge" anyway. This could be a way to get rid of that whole grindy feel, while at the same time giving players an incentive to keep playing.

I'll stop rambling now :p.

Tumarek
04-16-2010, 07:41 AM
I think making drop rates on hard and elite much better could help... Thinking about Inspired quaters here. Nice casual quests on normal, but drop rate aint too good.
They really get a nice punch on elite and are challenging and fun at that point but there is no reason to run them on elite... drop rates are about the same.

So instead of forcing people who want a certain piece of equipment to grind the quest on normal 100 times, make them prepare and invest in 10 hard and fun runs. Actually make some named items exclusive drops for elite... more challenge, less grind -> more fun.

I still like the fact that DDO isnt a game were grind is required to level, but it still could do with less.

Mr_Ed7
04-16-2010, 07:43 AM
I think the game and perhpas even your own guild is what you make of it.

The game allows for grinding if you so choose.

I prefer a more casual laid back approach; it is not a race.

dunklezhan
04-16-2010, 07:54 AM
I think the game and perhpas even your own guild is what you make of it.

The game allows for grinding if you so choose.

I prefer a more casual laid back approach; it is not a race.

True. but there's no getting away from the fact that people want the best gear. However, the way to do that is to make it really *difficult*, which is not the same as *tediously repetitive*.

I'm with the OP and a couple of the other posters here: improve the drop rates to virtually guaranteed at certain difficulty levels, but make those difficulty levels truly mean something. You can run it on normal 100 times and never get the drop, sure. But run it somewhere between 1 and 5 times on Elite (I'd prefer once) and be practically guaranteed to get it - but you'd better bring your best game if you're playing it at level, or if you're playing a L20 quest on Elite and you don't already have the most tricked out items in the game (in which case why would you be doing it? TR and start again!).

That's the problem with end game for me, and why I probably won't spend any time there once I reach it - you're either grinding grinding grinding the same quests endlessly, chasing random drops which you need multiple of in order to craft/hand in for whatever uber item you want, or... nope. There's no 'or'. That's it. Which I don't like, so I'll hit 20, try a couple of epic instances and if they don't offer me anything exciting, I'll TR and head on up the line again exploring a new build/character/content/whatever (I think TR is a stroke of genius actually. Gives you a way to keep advancing your character once you reach cap).

I don't honestly see how any developer can effectively prevent the end game grind in an MMO - I mean, you aren't advancing - *its the end game* - what else would you be doing except grinding for gear if you aren't going to TR?

But the item/crafting grind on the way up just to be able to do end game content? That's what needs keeping an eye on.

Yaga_Nub
04-16-2010, 07:56 AM
Yes.

Rasczak
04-16-2010, 08:03 AM
Make something rare to find but worth getting. Then add in some feature that requires you to access said item, sigils, boot ingredients, shroud ingredients, relics, tokens, scrolls blah blah

Means it takes players awhile to gain that 1 item from new content and hoped that they will grind old content still for new characters recently made.

DDO has preety much always toed the line. Reflag a raid, randomly dropping flagging items, high amounts of items needed to flag, small random chance to drop item, bigger chance after 20 completions to find the item.

To be fair, the grind has gone up a lot over the years but you have to also make it difficult to find special items. If I completed a ToD and found exactly what I wanted 1st time as did everyone else then honestly what would we have to do around here? Why also would certain items be so expensive to buy, are included in most builds etc etc.
You can't make them easier to get since it takes some of their power away and new content gets adjusted to suit the explosion of say dt armours...

It's an MMORPG and so there will always be a grinding elemental. There has to be for balance and to keep players online.
The trick though is the random results, DT armour was an insult. At least with everything else we knew what we were going for and what the result would be.

The only true grind I find in DDO is Refuge. Everythign else you have a chance to drop it first time or receive it as a reward on your 20th.
Epic I do not consider a grind. Yes you need tokens but after a while there will be so many epic quests to run that it won't feel like a grind. Scrolls, Shards and Seals should be considered to be like the elusive bloodstone and raid loot. If you want it then you need to look for it. At the end of the day it's not like the be all and end all. The epic loot is awesome to have, so is shroud items, but there are ways of being almost effective without them.

Either way, Refuge needs a relook, the rest of it I can't complain. Hell, in pnp it took me 8months of campaigning to find one juicy item so it's not end of the world. I just think an Epic raid token should be worth more than an epic dugeon token, fix refuge, give people more loot options. And they heading that way, in another 4 years we'll probably have so many unique item choices it won't be a case of looking for that one ring or that one shield. We used to only get toughness on Minos, now I can get it on other items....less tapestry running more epic running. See what I'm saying?

Kriogen
04-16-2010, 08:08 AM
If you want casual/normal/hard, DDO is not a grind.

If you want elite/raid/epic and cool toys, DDO is huge grind.

"Flagging" for <insert quest> should be removed. Just that, removed. Specificaly that "get 20 tokens to enter" or "get item or fail" ****.

Other things? If I can do stuff on normal, maybe hard, i'm OK. If I have to do extra for elite/epic, it's also 'legit'.

Eladiun
04-16-2010, 08:23 AM
/signed more content less grind

Beherit_Baphomar
04-16-2010, 08:27 AM
Any MMO requires grinding, without it your playerbase would wither and dry up.

It's how you impliment that grind that matters.

GH, for example, isn't a grind. I've ran I don't know how many characters through those quests countless times. And the next character I create I'll still enjoy it.

The Vale, again not a grind IMO. After multiple characters and items created I still enjoy the quests.

SoS. I like the quests, but with no progression toward what I want/need this goes in the grind category.

Necro. Again, I like these quests and I can see an end in sight, so no grind.

Amrath/TOD. Too little progression (read **** poor boot ing/ring drop rate) this goes in the grind category.

So the game is both grindy and non-grindy IMO. I don't mind farming an item, I do mind seeing no progression toward that item.

Raiderone
04-16-2010, 08:42 AM
It is definitely a Grind. And has always been a grind game. It's just gotten worse with the addition of Reaver Refuge, Amrath and Epic.

I think Reaver Refuge is the worst of all Grinds. It's all about blind luck. I even complete more than one item per toon. So times that by 8 or 9 toons.

No wonder I'm thinking of deleting toons or just leave them in the Abyss...

Sometimes I choose not to Grind...hence running different toons.

Oh! And TR is the biggest grind due to the lack of additional levels to keep us preoccupied until DDO figures out it's future...Epic Levels?? Atari??

Tumarek
04-16-2010, 08:48 AM
It is definitely a Grind. And has always been a grind game. It's just gotten worse with the addition of Reaver Refuge, Amrath and Epic.

I think Reaver Refuge is the worst of all Grinds. It's all about blind luck. I even complete more than one item per toon. So times that by 8 or 9 toons.

No wonder I'm thinking of deleting toons or just leave them in the Abyss...

Sometimes I choose not to Grind...hence running different toons.

Oh! And TR is the biggest grind due to the lack of additional levels to keep us preoccupied until DDO figures out it's future...Epic Levels?? Atari??

Well i would consider a game to be a grind if you are forced to grind just to play it. In DDO you can do all content and get to level 20 without grinding, excluding epic. Grind in this game is still optional and so far they have kept it this way.

Josh
04-16-2010, 08:49 AM
Yes, and it has been since day one.

ArichValtrahn
04-16-2010, 08:49 AM
I find it amazing this question is even being asked. The Favor/TP system for F2P is grind city. For high levels, Greensteel, DT crafting, etc, serious grind. Reincarnate, double XP to level = more grind. Dont even mention Completionist.

grodon9999
04-16-2010, 08:50 AM
There is way too much grind in this game and Turbine keeps adding grind without lowering existing grind.

Lerincho
04-16-2010, 08:51 AM
Simple answer, it's the ultmiate grind. Saddly just recently even heard a WoW player state that it was too much grind for them compared to WoW.

This from a game that on the original box stated All the MMO without the grind. Oooops

Raiderone
04-16-2010, 08:55 AM
Well i would consider a game to be a grind if you are forced to grind just to play it. In DDO you can do all content and get to level 20 without grinding, excluding epic. Grind in this game is still optional and so far they have kept it this way.

If you want any potentially good equipment, you need to grind alot.

If you want level 20 toons with random chest equipment..then you dont need to grind.
But to the detriment of your character...and probably reputation.

Lerincho
04-16-2010, 08:57 AM
If you want any potentially good equipment, you need to grind alot.

If you want level 20 toons with random chest equipment..then you dont need to grind.
But to the detriment of your character...and probably reputation.

unless you are one hell of a good trader with people to get all things on first time. that would be one hell of a charisma and diplo score that player has.

Tumarek
04-16-2010, 09:01 AM
Simple answer, it's the ultmiate grind. Saddly just recently even heard a WoW player state that it was too much grind for them compared to WoW.

This from a game that on the original box stated All the MMO without the grind. Oooops

Are there games out there with less grind... probably, havnt played one yet...

Ultimate grinding? hell no, play one of those asian MMORPG, that is ultimate grinding, DDO is a joke in comparison...

In many you would have to sit your char on one place for like 10 hours and constantly click around without any challenge just to get to level 2 after getting the xp through questing. And I'm really not joking.

DDO has its fair amount of grind and its getting worse... but it still has a good headstart :)

grodon9999
04-16-2010, 09:02 AM
If you want any potentially good equipment, you need to grind alot.

If you want level 20 toons with random chest equipment..then you dont need to grind.
But to the detriment of your character...and probably reputation.

Not true at all, several quests require a silly amount of grinding to get flagged, it's not just about getting better gear.

Rasczak
04-16-2010, 09:04 AM
If you someone that wants every piece of a perfect equipment setup then yes you will grind.

Not everyone you meet though is interested in getting all those items only to be able to grind some more in epic. A lot of people do each quest, move on and enjoy the game. When they hit a peak they try something else.....4 years later they post on the forums because making new characters is boring, they have no slots left anyway, they tired of tangleroot and deleiras and there's nothing else for them to do except jump into ever raid they see for some 'special' loot

There's a big difference between playing for 4 years and playing for 4 months. After 4 years there's nothing left to do but try get all the 'ultimate' gear. Some new power gamers like this as well, loads of new players are just interested in experiencing everything and so don't do Xorian 20 times for a gird, Shadow for handwraps etc etc....For them the only grind is necro to flag because they heard so much about abbot and tod because noone lets them into the group without boots :p

Renvar
04-16-2010, 09:10 AM
The reality of DDO is that you have players who:

1) Want to play for 4+ hours per day 7 days a week (That's not even all that extreme)
2) They want to play the same character(or small set of characters)

No Developer can make content fast enough to satisfy this crowd. Heck, I only play 15-20 hours per week and I've run every quest multiple times and capped close to a dozen characters.

Creating Grind to make the same content re-usable is almost mandatory.

Although this bears the name D&D, you can't think in terms of PnP. For the following reasons:

1) In PnP you do not rerun a quest, even once.
2) In PnP you do not get to run the same character ad nauesum. At some point, when they cap you semi-retire them and start a new campaign. The character can come out of retirement occasionally for a quest but mostly, once they reach a certain point the campaign ends.
3) In PnP the unique loot is actually unique. Levik only made one set of bracers. Tharne only made one pair of goggles. Every member of the party can't have the same "unique" loot.

You can avoid the grind in DDO, you just have to institute rules to limit yourself and play DDO like PnP. There are roleplay guilds and PD guilds that do this. The grind is optional.

It would be nice if Turbine created a server for PD/Roleplay where quests could not be rerun and named loot dropped 100% of the time, but only one drop of each item so that only one person in the party could have it. ANd get rid of repetitive flagging requirements like the 20 relics in the gianthold. (Or just drop enough in the flagging quests to meet the requirement with one run of each quest).

But these things are not necessary to create a less grindy DDO. You can choose to participate in the grind or not.

Some cool things that Turbine could do to make re-runs of quests more fun (whether grinding or not):

1) randomize mob locations and sizes.
2) randomize loot chest locations
3) randomize trap locations and nature of damage.
4) randomize maps. (particularly for cave/sewer type settings. outdoor settings like redwillows, gwylans, or irestone inlet you would do more moving of mobs and chests)

Then every run would be unique and challenging.

Another idea would be to expand the favor system to be more complex. Favor for each patron could go up and down based on your actions. If you did quest x for house d, it annoys house k. And so on. Then the order in which you run quests, the number of quests you run for a particular house, etc would effect which rewards you got and which additional assignments (Quests) you could run for that patron. It could create a whole new dynamic and replay-ability.

I think there are lots of ways to play DDO and one is without Grind. There are also lots of things Turbine could do to increase the re-playability of existing content without using Grind. Unfortunately, Grind is the MMO standard path to keeping the player base busy while you make new content.

Raiderone
04-16-2010, 09:11 AM
I dont mind the Grind for the most part. I just wish some of it was easier.

For Instance; Reaver Refuge DT Armor three tier benefits and Amrath boots.

TR's are okay, I just wish the XP was a little lower. My 16th level TR is sitting at slightly over 2Million XP... I doubt I'll ever TR again.

1st: Reaver Tiers should be visible. Not Pot Luck.
2nd: Have Two or Three Tiers available and can select only One from Chest for End Reward (Tier based on Quest as is).

Amrath Boots should be automatic after getting Yugo Favor.

Tumarek
04-16-2010, 09:17 AM
I dont mind the Grind for the most part. I just wish some of it was easier.

For Instance; Reaver Refuge DT Armor three tier benefits and Amrath boots.

TR's are okay, I just wish the XP was a little lower. My 16th level TR is sitting at slightly over 2Million XP... I doubt I'll ever TR again.

1st: Reaver Tiers should be visible. Not Pot Luck.
2nd: Have Two or Three Tiers available and can select only One from Chest for End Reward (Tier based on Quest as is).

Amrath Boots should be automatic after getting Yugo Favor.

Aye stuff like that would help alot... you will still have to run the quests a couple times but you will at least see light at the end of the tunnel

And maybe for Revers Refuge:

On normal: random rune with no clue
On hard: one random rune which tells you what they will do to you armor
on elite: Selection of 3 random runes which tell you what they do

Raiderone
04-16-2010, 09:18 AM
Not true at all, several quests require a silly amount of grinding to get flagged, it's not just about getting better gear.

Thats not what i was replying too. Yes if you want to be flagged for certain quests,
you need to grind...some more than others.

But if your only interest is getting a toon Lvl 20, it's possible with limited grinding
for the casual player.

Raiderone
04-16-2010, 09:21 AM
Aye stuff like that would help alot... you will still have to run the quests a couple times but you will at least see light at the end of the tunnel

Just think of if they were visible, you could trade them in the chest with other toons.

You'd still have to grind...but it would be better.

Slowe
04-16-2010, 09:35 AM
Any MMO requires grinding, without it your playerbase would wither and dry up.

It's how you impliment that grind that matters.

GH, for example, isn't a grind. I've ran I don't know how many characters through those quests countless times. And the next character I create I'll still enjoy it.

The Vale, again not a grind IMO. After multiple characters and items created I still enjoy the quests.

SoS. I like the quests, but with no progression toward what I want/need this goes in the grind category.

Necro. Again, I like these quests and I can see an end in sight, so no grind.

Amrath/TOD. Too little progression (read **** poor boot ing/ring drop rate) this goes in the grind category.

So the game is both grindy and non-grindy IMO. I don't mind farming an item, I do mind seeing no progression toward that item.

+1, we share the opinion on this.

It's pretty cruel to have people play your game and have absolutely nothing to show for it, like in Reaver's Refuge. I hate the Amrath grind and absolutely loathe Reaver's Refuge grind (don't do it anymore, aside from the once-per character basis). Generally, I don't mind repeating the same old content as long as I have something to show for it.

To remedy this, they should probably look up to WoW, and make the rewards purchasable, in addition to having a chance to drop - just think - you can buy a scroll for 15 epic tokens, a seal for 20 epic + 5 raid tokens, shard for 30 epic + 10 raid tokens - one would need to do a considerable amount of epic dungeons to get a specific item, but it wouldn't be as futile as it is now. Reaver's Refuge and Amrath could also use a similar treatment, and raid 20th completion rewards should include all the items on the loot list.

Daggaz
04-16-2010, 09:52 AM
Good post, well put.

I am working on my dragontouched armor, and got lucky for an intermediate suit to wear while grinding my first greensteel (dual shard of course), but I know it will be back to that rat race once I have my goggles done. It would be nicer if it was more directable, like shroud crafting.

As for the shroud, well I am new ok, but I like that raid and think it is fun, even as the healer. But the drop rates on the larges are abyssmal and I shudder to think of how I am going to complete three GS items which I would like to have. Especially with the timer. On top of that, I have been feeling cheated everytime I complete and get my reward list. Usually a long list of total vendor trash, I have better luck running some of the flagging quests, honestly.

Of course, if they made it too fast and easy, the loot wouldnt feel special and everybody would be running around with multiple items of pwnership. Its not an easy balance to find, I think. You want the aspect of the lottery, but you dont want to turn it into an epic grind.

UncleThomson
04-16-2010, 09:58 AM
It would seem that DDO is in a mid-life crisis, and has forgotten it's roots... or maybe we are just under entirely new management that has decided to take DDO in a "new" direction...

DDO went into that direction when they changed static loot into semi static loot... IMO the worst decision they ever made.

I remember the arguments of they people on the bords which whined that static loot was to good. They mentioned items nobody would care for today anyways (One argued that Retribution should become raid loot...)

With the VoN chests everything went further downhill.

However, I am glad that you can now skip a bunch of the grind by buing things at the C-Store.

P.S:

I really totally don't care for that lottery aspect at all. It's rediculous. There will always be people who get the item they want with the first try and others who will never get it... that's statistics.

If you have 100.000 subscribers and everybody runs a quest for an item every day, and the chance to get the item is - say 1%, there are over 2500 who won't get it after a year, and still 65 who will not have it after two years, while 1000 will get it on the first day and 3000 within the first 3 days.

And if you're running the same stupid quest every day for two years, I can totally understand why you get frustrated.

The bad thing is that it's also statistically correct that you have far more winners than loosers in the long run, and since only the loosers kiss the game good by, the lottery principle is pretty successful. But basically it's a spit in the face for the unlucky.

And note: there is no skill involved. Just pure luck.

Kemoc
04-16-2010, 10:12 AM
I agree.

I came to ddo, after grinding my brains out on wow, vowing to never play any game that got you hooked on repeating something ad nauseam to get a particular item that made your character more powerful, until a new patch got released that got you started all over again.

I came to ddo to quest, in dungeons. I play casually, I like to log on, enter a dungeon, and be immersed in the whole d&d experience by having a dungeon narrator that guides you through your adventure. I loved hearing that narration voice for the first time. It was such a refreshing concept from any other game. It made you feel like you actually were that little dwarf with his crappy armour and flaming axe, trying to fight off hordes of kobolds, while at the same time your DM was describing just how wet and foul smelling that sewer was that you were crawling around in. I loved having to actually COMPLETE a dungeon to get any rewards at all.

It feels like that kind of development was too rough to manage, and that more addictive concepts from other mmorpgs were implemented to keep the playerbase occupied. Slayers, rare spawns (basically outdoor areas feel very grindy, except the explorer touch), item crafting, etc...

I would love to see actual roleplay crafting. Grabbing your chunk of starmetal that you retrieved from that fallen dragon's hoard, venturing deep into the mountain, dragging along the cart of equipment you need to craft your greatsword with, vanquishing a huge demon to access the anvil and making your weapon. There would be no need to repeatedly do the dungeon to get the items. Your rewards, be they questrewards or a static item in the dungeon, would load 100%. The run is just so incredibly hard, it takes near perfect coordination to get it done. People would die, few would succeed, but the ones that succeed would have something to show for it. You could look at that dwarf with his huge flaming sword, or the elf with his glowing crown, and say: "Woha, that's one tough #@$#"%.", instead of 'jesus, that guy just spent 30 days, repetitively entering, spamming to the monster, chopping its head off and recalling'.

I think the whole roleplay aspect is key here, which is directly oposite to the random factor. The more random a drop gets, the more repetition is needed, which kills the roleplay experience. If you were sure to get an item, the adventure would feel more like a quest than a task. The problem is, the more content you add that focuses on running something once, the less times people would actually do the quest, which results in more pressure on the development team to release more and more content.

This is where profitability comes into play. A good solution was implemented in the way of having different difficulty settings, and adding the bonus xp for completing it the first time. Perhaps that chunk of starmetal you find on epic settings would simply be a chunk of ore on casual settings, resulting in less of a powerful item (perhaps even both in statistics as visual effects). In any case, solutions like the difficulty settings are far more desirable than the grinding ones, in my humble opinion atleast. Note that this primarily concerns endgame dungeons, as having to develop regular dungeons like this would be far too timeconsuming, which reduces profitability. It also kills your gaming experience, as you find yourself with an incredible challenge to gain that small chunk of xp on the way to level 20. I can already see the frustration among players grouping with a PUG, unable to complete 99% of the quests...

Endgame, or epic dungeons atleast, are for capped characters, and I hear plenty of them shouting that they want a "greater challenge" anyway. This could be a way to get rid of that whole grindy feel, while at the same time giving players an incentive to keep playing.

I'll stop rambling now :p.

I would like this as well.

HallowedOne
04-16-2010, 10:18 AM
No MMO would survive if iy didn't have any grind on it. As someone already said, it is how you implement it that makes the difference.

I have a guildie that prefers to stay playing only until mid-lvls. He says that after that the game becomes a total grind, and he is correct. The ingredients you need to collect for boots, the countless repetitions of Shroud to make the item you want, and the dreaded, feared, loathsome lottery of the Reaver's Refuge, just to name a few.

IMO, this is a direct consequence of capping your toon. What many things rest for a 20 unless repeat everything he has done before? Or prepare for anything he still didn't do?

Personally, the most fun parts of the game for me are when you are leveling to 20. You see your toon growing in power and, with enough content, I only have to play each quest about 3 times max ( normal, hard, elite) to grab the XP bonuses so there is no crazy repetition over and over again.

And even when I reach 20, I still "enjoy" the grinding since the majority of it are fun to play (and not that long, mind you).

The only thing I really hated is Reaver's lottery. It is so bad that only by SHOWING THE DAMN PROPERTY ON RUNE YOU GET it would improve 1000%.

sirgog
04-16-2010, 10:47 AM
IMO the worst grind in the game is the Shroud.

At least it's a fun quest, but needing to do it literally 40+ times per character to optimize them is ridiculous.

Tharlak
04-16-2010, 10:54 AM
I dont mind the Grind for the most part. I just wish some of it was easier.

For Instance; Reaver Refuge DT Armor three tier benefits and Amrath boots.

TR's are okay, I just wish the XP was a little lower. My 16th level TR is sitting at slightly over 2Million XP... I doubt I'll ever TR again.

1st: Reaver Tiers should be visible. Not Pot Luck.
2nd: Have Two or Three Tiers available and can select only One from Chest for End Reward (Tier based on Quest as is).

Amrath Boots should be automatic after getting Yugo Favor.

Agreed for the most part, but what I would say is that I do not want the grind to be easier per se. I want the grind to be more predictable.

Random crafting is not crafting. The grind here is just playing the lottery , over and over, and over, and over.

Raid loot should get less random as you go. After 20 runs 1/2 avail, 40 runs 3/4, some sort of progression that at some point guarantees the item.

Let folks grind, but let them feel that they will be able to accomplish their goal. Not based on random chance.

ArichValtrahn
04-16-2010, 10:56 AM
DDO went into that direction when they changed static loot into semi static loot... IMO the worst decision they ever made.

I wasnt here when it was all static, but I can see how that change would hurt the game. For example, I dont mind running Deleras with every character I make because I know Ive got the VOM waiting for me at the end. I wouldnt mind running Shroud 30 times if I knew I could select the exact ingredients I wanted at the end of each section. Same with SOS. If I could pick the runes I got .. hell, Id be happy just seeing what they would do and having a few to choose from at the end of the quests.

tunabomber
04-16-2010, 11:13 AM
I agree with you,but hell its a friggin MMO.Isnt that what they all do? I wouldnt know because this was the only one that seemed worth playing.

Thalmor
04-16-2010, 11:52 AM
Basically any quest that you can re-run multiple time is essentially a grind ( Wether for favor or XP).

The fact that we have 7 servers and that you can have multiple characters on each server means that there will be a certain amount of grind to this game.

Having quests and creatures spawn at random locations would improve this some what, but the map is still the same. If there was a way to be able to randomize the map I think would do a lot to alieviate the grind. However I'm not to sure how easy this would be to implement.

Mind you I don't mind the grind part of the game, as this is a form of entertainment for me and I am a big fan of D'nD bith the PnP and various computer that have come out over the years. So when I got the e-mail that DDO was going FTP, I got back into DDO ( Orginally Played on a 10 day trial, but didn't want to spend that much money every month). So now I am a preimum player ( buying the minimum points bundle once a month).

Anyway now I am rambling.

MorningStarSE
04-16-2010, 11:38 PM
I remember a time when I once said... "You know why I love DDO...? Because I never feel like I am grinding." That DDO is dead.

Is this a grinding game, or is it not, because if it is... I may just leave and never come back again... and stop recommending that my friends try it out, and come join the server on which I play...


I said that with other games as well. I don't know why i could feel it less before and now i'm just tired of that ******** grind (yes i'm using the R word, cause i'm a pirate ! Arr !).


I grind for some item, i started to grind the shroud and the DT armor recently but i doubt i will ever complete it, at least i don't run it every 2-3 days and i've plenty of stuff to do with all my toons. That said, i'm not there yet, but i know the pain and seriously, grinding =/= fun, its not playing a game, its a stupid job, i stopped raiding because of that in other games... :rolleyes:

Jendrak
04-16-2010, 11:49 PM
As much as we would like to see a grind free MMO it will never happen and heres why

1. MMO's need players
2. Players like phat loots
3. phat loots require work
4. work in MMO's = grinding

Wether your trying to puul it from a chest or get the right stuff to make it yourself grinding is the way you get it. This is just how it is. It sucks bu they just cant give the good stuff away every time.

MorningStarSE
04-17-2010, 12:10 AM
As much as we would like to see a grind free MMO it will never happen and heres why

1. MMO's need players
2. Players like phat loots
3. phat loots require work
4. work in MMO's = grinding

Wether your trying to puul it from a chest or get the right stuff to make it yourself grinding is the way you get it. This is just how it is. It sucks bu they just cant give the good stuff away every time.


You forget to mention the part where the guy who get the phatest loot has to brag and say **** on the rest of the world because he so leet and got the biggest epeen ever ! :D

Velexia
04-19-2010, 03:01 AM
As much as we would like to see a grind free MMO it will never happen and heres why

1. MMO's need players
2. Players like phat loots
3. phat loots require work
4. work in MMO's = grinding

Wether your trying to puul it from a chest or get the right stuff to make it yourself grinding is the way you get it. This is just how it is. It sucks bu they just cant give the good stuff away every time.

You're wrong, and you don't even know why. It's called thinking outside of the box. You are inside of the box inside of the box inside of the box...

Rasczak
04-19-2010, 03:11 AM
You're wrong, and you don't even know why. It's called thinking outside of the box. You are inside of the box inside of the box inside of the box...

Shouldn't you then give a better scenario than the one accused of being wrong?

I'm just being Devil's Advocate but saying that the example is wrong and people need tro think outside of the box deserves an example to show why it's wrong

Velexia
04-19-2010, 03:55 AM
Shouldn't you then give a better scenario than the one accused of being wrong?

I'm just being Devil's Advocate but saying that the example is wrong and people need tro think outside of the box deserves an example to show why it's wrong

There is no point, DDO could never incorporate such an example. Especially this late in its life.

But here, indulge yourself in this: http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/velexia (http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/velexia) (Weblogs and Forum Topics by Velexia)
(http://forums.ddo.com/mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/velexia)

Rasczak
04-19-2010, 04:11 AM
There is no point, DDO could never incorporate such an example. Especially this late in its life.

But here, indulge yourself in this: http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/velexia
(http://forums.ddo.com/mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/velexia)

Interesting take, yet it will be a very fine line between grinding and waiting. I generally find that when people get to certain powerful levels based on the world they are in, it either becomes a massive waiting game, or like DDO, make them run for power or items.

Unless instanced worlds can release something every week for endgame, there will be grind.
The only time a box becomes involved in the line of thinking is how to make the waiting and/or grind less tedious. No-one has a result for that yet.

You could of course take a pointer from the click-based browser games with no level cap but then it becomes monotonous with people only going for power over pleasure.

Otherworld
04-19-2010, 04:22 AM
Maybe they should make a series of quests (maybe even existing ones) you have to complete (like a checklist) to get a chance at a high-tier epic item (which looks cool).

And just make the game choose a random selection of quests for the list.
Then when you complete the checklist, you can turn it in at some npc (who may or may not be at the end of a special quest).

Once you completed the list and turned in, your list resets with another random selection of quests.
(And maybe DON'T scale the quests to your lvl, but make it so that you have to re-do some low lvl quests. Also, quests from chains should be left out.)

Kyrn
04-19-2010, 04:38 AM
Necropolis III, Tome Pages, Shield Fragments, Tapestry Shreds, Sigil Pieces, and then a Raid which drops loot as per normal. This felt like maybe a step in the right direction... as it takes less runs overall and you are less likely to hit the 0 xp awarded mark on any particular quest.

Just a correction: Necropolis III is the Cursed Crypt series. You mean Necropolis IV.

Anderei
04-19-2010, 04:54 AM
What speaks for DDO as a non-grind game? It is very possible to reach the cap - level 20 (non-TR) without much feeling of a grind. Normal-Hard everything and you are easily at 1.900.000 XP. You do not need any of the uber gear to get there (contrary to what I heared of the top at WoW, if you don't have grindy-gear X dont even think about entering content Y).

What speaks for DDO a a grinding game? Well as been posted, a lot of things kept kreeping in that are very far on the grinding-side of the scale. Take a simple example Invaders, while I enjoyed running it 5 times, 25 tokens for your healing scepter/balance ring is just a tad too much to be counted non-grinding. And this is just the easy things, since you can solo invaders after a given level (13 for me, getting the WF-wiz hireling). Aside of the grind you need to get to epics (which is okay IMHO, since it is epic after all), some of the content can only been seen after much grind, which is bad (like the Y content from above), I never have seen the Abbot Raid - while Vol, Fleshmakers, and Ghosts aren't that bad, I couldn't push me to repeat inferno multiplle of times, 1-2 runs were enough. Same I never seen ToD, since the boots uhhhh, and nowadays you cannot enter without boots at all.

In total I think grind ist not be bad in a sense of itself. People actually like some kind of grind. Take e.g. Shroud, its a great Raid, I really enjoy doing it, it does feel kind of epic etc. I repeatedly do it with my 2 lvl 20is, altough I didn't even plan any greensteel yet. Its just when doing some stuff too much, you enjoy by itself too less it starts feeling ehhh. So IMHO DDO can just scrap the "non-grind-MMO" from its attribute list, its simply not true. The only way you could reeally stay non-grind while keeping people playing is by adding new content - continously - not 10 dungeon/year, but much more. Staying non-grind is done by more story-telling.

While I do realize there are some stories tied into DDO, in total it feels kind of story less, often with groups you don't even have given the time to read the text (my favorite bad example is catacombs, all 6 members have to talk with the abt, but only one can do so at the same time, try to start actually reading the story, you have 5 people mad at you, or you all take 60 minutes until everyone read the story - bad game design decission here). After playing DDO now for some months I kind of feel the itch to replay Baldurs Gate, altough it IMHO has a worser engine, it somehow has an appealing overall story. Sometimes I think with the TR mechanics DDO could have made some more stories, like actual decissions that lead you through your eberron live, save korthos or pillage it - while second decission might lead you to an all alternate stormreach. (I know the difficulties of this, but just a general idea, Yes there might be less players in each "universe" - but on the other hand, I never understood why a game that is 100%ly divided into instances has to seperate into servers again with unbreachable barriers between them).

TheDjinnFor
04-19-2010, 04:56 AM
As much as we would like to see a grind free MMO it will never happen and heres why

1. MMO's need players
2. Players like phat loots
3. phat loots require work
4. work in MMO's = grinding

Wether your trying to puul it from a chest or get the right stuff to make it yourself grinding is the way you get it. This is just how it is. It sucks bu they just cant give the good stuff away every time.

Bull. There are people still playing 5 and 10 year old games that haven't seen an update since they first came out, and they're still having fun. No, I'm not talking about online MMO's, I'm talking about console games/non-subscription games. See, what keeps players playing them is not because there's a grind, but because it's fun and competitive. People don't play counterstrike everyday to grind up phat lewtz, they play it because it's fun to do so and they enjoy facing other players. Players don't play Street Fighter games a lot so that they can level up; they do it because it is fun and they enjoy facing other players.

All an MMO needs to do is to make doing the same thing over and over 'fun', and they don't even need to provide rewards for it.

Kyrn
04-19-2010, 05:01 AM
Bull. There are people still playing 5 and 10 year old games that haven't seen an update since they first came out, and they're still having fun. No, I'm not talking about online MMO's, I'm talking about console games/non-subscription games. See, what keeps players playing them is not because there's a grind, but because it's fun and competitive. People don't play counterstrike everyday to grind up phat lewtz, they play it because it's fun to do so and they enjoy facing other players. Players don't play Street Fighter games a lot so that they can level up; they do it because it is fun and they enjoy facing other players.

All an MMO needs to do is to make doing the same thing over and over 'fun', and they don't even need to provide rewards for it.

Name me a single example of a cooperative (as opposed to competitive) online multiplayer game with a similar lifespan.

Tumarek
04-19-2010, 05:03 AM
...

Once you completed the list and turned in, your list resets with another random selection of quests.
(And maybe DON'T scale the quests to your lvl, but make it so that you have to re-do some low lvl quests. Also, quests from chains should be left out.)

Wow that sounds like a disgusting grind, without challenge :P

Well two things i'd like to add:

- The main problem is keeping people buisy. With no grind all powergamers would level 5 chars to level 20 in a week or 2 and leave the game again. Now I'm not saying i would miss them but Turbin as any company likes their money as much as yours. And grind without a reward isnt an option either, nobody would do it.

-There are other games out there that take a complete different approach like Second LIfe... but they are a different genre of game and attract different people. Lots of people here like the numbercrunching and a certain amount of grind.

To get a perfect balance in one game will just never work imho. Better have different games, some for flowersniffers, some For Powergamers and some for the "in between" folks. And from my experience i would put DDO in the "in between" area. No important PVP part helps there a lot... Just think what direction this game would take if you get out of a hard dungeon and 10 people are sitting infront of the door just to kill you and take your loot :)

Rice
04-19-2010, 05:22 AM
If there's no grind, then there's nothing to do. If there's nothing to do, you quit the game. It's that simple.

They can't pump out content as fast as you can finish them. That's a fact for any MMO. So in order to delay the players, they HAVE to put grind into the game.

How can they reduce they grind?

I think they should *increase* the timer for raids to at least 5-7 days. Then they can up the exp and drop rate dramatically on items/tokens. That way it'll feel less grindy, since you're running the instance less and getting more loot per run (but still the same loot per day on average). The 3 day timer that they currently have forces them to make the loot drops very low or require you to collect an enormous amount of tokens to get something, as well as forces the players to run the same place more often.


What speaks for DDO as a non-grind game? It is very possible to reach the cap - level 20 (non-TR) without much feeling of a grind. Normal-Hard everything and you are easily at 1.900.000 XP. You do not need any of the uber gear to get there (contrary to what I heared of the top at WoW, if you don't have grindy-gear X dont even think about entering content Y).

This is misleading. I have to correct this. You cannot compare leveling in DDO to end-game in WoW. You can certainly get to 1-80 in WoW just doing quests of your picking using any gear you want, just like you can get to 20 in DDO using pretty much anything. Yes, there is end-game content in WoW that will probably destroy you if you don't have X amount of gear, but the same can be said for DDO as well.

Don't have silver/pure good weapon that costs a fortune to the newcomer? Enjoy seeing your 10 damage hits and feeling worthless. Go grind plat in low level quests to buy the weapon off the AH. Don't have boots for ToD? Good luck. Want to make one piece of GS? Ho ho, good luck with chests 4 and 5.

Corebreach
04-19-2010, 05:24 AM
You can avoid the grind in DDO, you just have to institute rules to limit yourself and play DDO like PnP.
Can I have a flat leveling curve like PnP if I do this? Pretty-please?

emptysands
04-19-2010, 05:56 AM
Aye stuff like that would help alot... you will still have to run the quests a couple times but you will at least see light at the end of the tunnel

And maybe for Revers Refuge:

On normal: random rune with no clue
On hard: one random rune which tells you what they will do to you armor
on elite: Selection of 3 random runes which tell you what they do

Another option is increasing the drop rate and allowing more than two runes of the same type to stack. Allowing more chances and better ability to infer the collected items would make it much better but keep it within the existing framework.

Allow more than 2 of the same type to stack means you can be definite that each stack is of a different type. So you can grind runs until you have a good set (say 10 stacks of 2+), then try the lottery.

Marr0w1
04-19-2010, 06:18 AM
almost all these grind things are optional to enjoying the game, or being a good player/character, which is why I still think this game is relatively grind free.

With the exception of some things like Gianthold, restricting content (and thus, fun) until you have completed the grind for certain items, almost all other grinding is optional.

Some classes, and some builds are more gear intensive than others, but unlike other games where in a crowd of cookie cutter builds, only the top tier-gear people are effective, its perfectly possible to do without 90% of the gear in this game.

Basic requirements to have fun and participate in raids are: A decent build, heavy fort, and something to hit people with if you are a melee... sure its nice to know that your toon is as maxed out as possible, but really that +2 exceptional str on your ToD ring is just adding 1 damage per hit... hardly gimping anyone without it.

TL-DR: Its still grind-free imho, because all the stuff you grind for is pretty much optional to enjoying all the content the game has to offer (minus epic of course) :D

Antheal
04-19-2010, 06:29 AM
I think it's vitally important for player-developer respect for the developers to always, always, remember the cardinal rule: Grinding is only fun when you don't need to do it.

As long as you [the developers] bear that in mind and apply it to all decisions in the future direction of the game, you'll be set.

vhortex
04-19-2010, 07:38 AM
Are there games out there with less grind... probably, havnt played one yet...
there are lots of games out there that have less grind but totally less fun.


Ultimate grinding? hell no, play one of those asian MMORPG, that is ultimate grinding, DDO is a joke in comparison...

If you are comparing DDO's 20lvls cap from asian games which mostly have 60-250 lvls as cap. if you do comparison that way, where do you think those chars will get the XP?



In many you would have to sit your char on one place for like 10 hours and constantly click around without any challenge just to get to level 2 after getting the xp through questing. And I'm really not joking.

DDO has its fair amount of grind and its getting worse... but it still has a good headstart :)

I have played the worst game where killing monsters wont give any xp, you only get xp after submitting a quest which is kill 20-300monsters at lvl 1 to advance to lvl 2. if you have taken 10hours sitting and waiting to get your lvl 2 xp, you are doing something wrong. even the worst publisher wont make a game that will take 10 hours to get to a single lvl. counting up as xp progression and lvl progression wise, going to lvl 10 on your example will at least take 3 days and that is from lvl 9.


*******************
All MMOs are grind oriented, including DDO. DDO only have it on lower scale. As the other guys said, you can skip the other stuff that force you to grind.. Only the min/max persons will want all those uber items. And having all those items does not equate a good player, but a good player without those uber items can still shine with a lesser version.

grodon9999
04-19-2010, 08:57 AM
Most of our points which people seem to be missing is grind keeps getting added to the game without lessening the existing grind. Mid-level grind for raid flagging (GH and Necro4) is just ********, I can understand the grinding for gear but grinding for non-end-gaming flagging is just plain dumb.

pumagirl418
04-19-2010, 09:04 AM
yes ddo has moved away from its beginnings. anyone still have the original box... if so read one...

sigtrent
04-19-2010, 09:18 AM
yes ddo has moved away from its beginnings. anyone still have the original box... if so read one...

Yes.... but it is far more successful for having done so. Every MMO has grind, it is impossible to have an MMO and not have grind. Indeed the better the MMO the more grind it requires. Why?

Because people want to have something to work towards, an objective or goal. The capacity of people to make content for a game is far outmatched by the capacity of people to play the game. So you need to encourage people to play as many different parts of the game as many times as is possible. If the game is big enough and fun enough they will do so. If there is no reason to do anything more than once, then its pretty much a single player game and you will loose interest and move on to something else.

And believe it or not... people like grinding, its just that when they are having fun they don't call it grinding. One thing that sets ddo apart is it has a lot of different kinds of grinds you can do. They have the vertical grind of repeating the same content for increasing reward, and the horizontal grind of doing all the different quests for completion style rewards.

Some of the suggestions in this thread show a lack of experience with game design. For instance, one suggested you just make a quest super duper hard for the ultimate reward.....

The results
1. You have to repeat the dungeon a great many times until you succeed (grind)
2. You must level up on easier dungeons many times to gain the power to make the dungeon easier. (grind)
3. You fail repeatedly (negative play feedback resulting in quitting)
4. You must only play with the best of the best on such quests. (elitism and a lack of player support for new players)
5. The content you worked very hard on becomes mostly ignored (poor return on investment)
6. In a level based system you simply wait until you can trivialize the challenge (completely defeats the purpose of making it hard)

jomonkey527
04-19-2010, 09:18 AM
Yes. It is what drove me from WOW (among other things), and will drive me away from DDO too.
/end thread

Tumarek
04-19-2010, 09:29 AM
counting up as xp progression and lvl progression wise, going to lvl 10 on your example will at least take 3 days and that is from lvl 9.


Aye, there are games out there exactly like that... They of course have motivating elements like hardcore PVP in there to get you working. I played VCO for like 3 years and i think to max your char you would need like 3 month, 6 hours a day of solid grinding...

But back to topic... So some people are asking for no grind at all. I dont think that would be good either. It is hard to find the right balance but Turbine wants to please the casual gamer and the hardcore gamer. I actually agree with that. Sometimes i am willing to grind and sometimes i like a casual moment.

I mean you really dont need any of the grindable equipment for casual playing. Now i get that some people want to have a very challenging game without grinding but i think that is more a state of mind then gamedesign.

Look at permadeath... simple set of rules and you have that. You dont even need the permadeath part if you can get a few people together in a guild or static group:

-No actionhouse, no vendors
-Take hardest diff that you can beat
-No grinding quests or chests

And voila you have a challenging game with no grind and dont miss out on a thing contentwise (well except raids to some extent)
I think this is really a major part of DDO: Grind is not required to play, and thats te biggest difference to most other good games.

ghettoGenius
04-19-2010, 09:46 AM
I agree with the OP. It has become a grind, but most MMOs do at one point or another ... its just a simple fact of their current business models. It could be done with a little less pain tho IMO.

The XP penalty to TRs is pretty steep. It reminds me of the time when there was an XP penalty for death. Entire weekends could feel like you were going nowhere. It's pretty demoralizing actually.

nibelung
04-19-2010, 10:04 AM
400 runs in reavers reach? that sounds really unlucky or very over exaggerated...but then again i don't mind grinding for my gear, it makes me feel like I'm actually working for it. The opposite would be what, just everything being handed to you...

Anderei
04-19-2010, 10:19 AM
400 runs in reavers reach? that sounds really unlucky or very over exaggerated...but then again i don't mind grinding for my gear, it makes me feel like I'm actually working for it. The opposite would be what, just everything being handed to you...

well when you have a very explicit idea what you want on all 3 tiers this might be a reasonable number to get that.

Mr_Ed7
04-19-2010, 10:19 AM
Grinding is a choice.

Arguably you could say I "grind" for XP.

Or I "grind" by leveling several toons to max level.

...but running the same quest over and over again...in rapid succession, in the hopes of getting some elusive named magic item...

...is a type of grinding that I do not typically engage in nor deem as fun-worthy.

Choose not to Grind!

Hybro
04-19-2010, 10:21 AM
As has been stated many times, a MMO has to have a grind in order to give players something to do between updates.

But there are good and bad grinds in terms of player satisfaction. A good grind will have the player logging off with the feeling something was accomplished for their time. A bad grind will leave a player with the feeling nothing was accomplished. Reaver's seems to fit the latter.

One of the problems with DDO is that it is having a hard time keeping content and items fresh without being overpowered. AC being useless under a certain value for high level content seems to be an example of this. Most MMOs solve this overpowering issue by raising the lvl cap on a regular basis. DDO is semi-chained in this aspect as the game mechanics really don't support regular lvl cap increases. DDO might be able to address this by making content specifically for, and only accessible by, TR characters. So instead of 20+ content you have TR-only content. This would kill two birds with one stone. It would address the increased xp requirements and give players additional content to work towards. (maybe a third angle of increased revenue by making TR almost mandatory, hence people would buy TR items more?)

Other suggestions to make the grind more enjoyable would be to make more level progression rewards. Items, raids and tasks that start in the 1-5 range and build up through TR levels. A raid that requires one of every level character (1-20) might be an interesting idea, with tasks for each lvl range. Or a raid for lvls 1-5 that unlocks access for toons 6-10 and progresses there on (basically the lower lvls would be able to give the next tier higher access for a couple days).

Velexia
04-19-2010, 11:00 AM
Interesting take, yet it will be a very fine line between grinding and waiting. I generally find that when people get to certain powerful levels based on the world they are in, it either becomes a massive waiting game, or like DDO, make them run for power or items.

Unless instanced worlds can release something every week for endgame, there will be grind.
The only time a box becomes involved in the line of thinking is how to make the waiting and/or grind less tedious. No-one has a result for that yet.

You could of course take a pointer from the click-based browser games with no level cap but then it becomes monotonous with people only going for power over pleasure.

I'm not sure what you mean by waiting. If you've ever played Neverwinter Nights in Multiplayer, you'd know that even starting with a perfect set of gear at maximum level, the only thing you need to keep players interested is a roleplaying environment. Not only is a roleplaying environment more entertaining... it's also longer lasting.

What happens in DDO when you reach max level and get every single item you could ever want? Most people just make a new character or quit. In a game that doesn't focus on levels or gear, it's about playing to have fun, not playing to get somewhere.

Velexia
04-19-2010, 11:02 AM
Just a correction: Necropolis III is the Cursed Crypt series. You mean Necropolis IV.

Thanks ~_^

die
04-19-2010, 11:14 AM
/signed.. after reading your post V i just want too shoot my self .. i really like nwn (mod hordes of the under dark).. it gave you a option too collecting Ingr. then building a item... or if your like me you just take your (sword too a guy) and he gives you a list of options you can upgrade(.. fom ts perm haste,).. becasue i hate building stuff and collecting .. but what i really miss is just the chance at a random item droping in a chest ,ohhhh treasure cool. imo thats what i miss is just the chance at pulling somthing really cool from a chest REAL TREASURE...:)but its obviouse us vets tear threw things way faster than they the DEVS can build them so i see the point of the grind but its just not for me, :)

azrael4h
04-19-2010, 12:27 PM
Name me a single example of a cooperative (as opposed to competitive) online multiplayer game with a similar lifespan.

Age of Wonders 2 (and to a lesser extent AoW1) still has active MP communities. Granted, that's both cooperative and competitive, as it's entirely up to the players whether they act in alliances or not. It can get quite political on a good game.

Doom (yes, DOOM) has a active MP community, which includes both cooperative (playing through SP maps with friends) and competitive modes of play. Doom came out in what, '92?

For that matter, unless you're on DM, you're in a cooperative mode with any FPS online just about. CTF, Retrieval, Base Assault, HQ, etc, all require team work and cooperation in order to succeed. The players are separated into teams, and if one team tries to play DM during a CTF/Ret match, they will lose. Quickly. Call of Duty 1, Quake 1 and 2 (and 3), etc... all have 5-10 year life spans, and active mp communities with both competitive and cooperative modes.

Baldur's Gate series has a cooperative MP mode. NWN1 and 2 do as well, though I'm not sure they fall under the 5-10 year mark. My guild on Khyber used to play NWN, then NWN2 every friday, just as they do on DDO now.

Of course, all of these highly successful games have one thing in common; easily modified games, able to accept additional game modes, items, maps, NPCs, etc... As a result, people still play them regularly, and they stay fresh.

Perhaps Turbine just needs to look at adding something other than unending questing to DDO? PnP, you could craft weapons, enchant them, build a castle, rip said castle out of the ground and make it fly, etc... Maybe start moving towards giving players more options than just running Shroud or Reaver 500,000 times for items that never drop.

Or maybe give the community more involvement with it's development, like EUO does with it's map editor. A large chunk of EUO content is community-made, and of very good quality. Better, in fact, than a lot of the stuff I've played on DDO.

Anyone who says fan-made mods suck has never played one before in their life. Infinity Ward sucks compared to the mappers at the CoD:UO community that I've played with for 6 years straight. And that was when IW was a good developer.

And dammit, bring in the Druids! ;)

Thrudh
04-19-2010, 02:26 PM
Agreed for the most part, but what I would say is that I do not want the grind to be easier per se. I want the grind to be more predictable.

Random crafting is not crafting. The grind here is just playing the lottery , over and over, and over, and over.

Raid loot should get less random as you go. After 20 runs 1/2 avail, 40 runs 3/4, some sort of progression that at some point guarantees the item.

Let folks grind, but let them feel that they will be able to accomplish their goal. Not based on random chance.

This.

Purgatid
04-19-2010, 02:35 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by waiting. If you've ever played Neverwinter Nights in Multiplayer, you'd know that even starting with a perfect set of gear at maximum level, the only thing you need to keep players interested is a roleplaying environment. Not only is a roleplaying environment more entertaining... it's also longer lasting.

What happens in DDO when you reach max level and get every single item you could ever want? Most people just make a new character or quit. In a game that doesn't focus on levels or gear, it's about playing to have fun, not playing to get somewhere.

This is the difference. I played nwn1, on RP servers, from the release until about a year ago. On an RP server, your goal is not power. Some of the servers had rates, RP rates, which were much more desirable than xp or loot. In effect - you would log in, and basically play your character (like in a pnp game) all day. Sometimes, you wouldn't even leave the Inn you're staying at, because your character had no reason to go seek adventure. Yet you played, you acted as your character, in hopes that it would move you closer to one of the RP rates that were higher. Say you started off at 10 rp rate, and those considered the best rpers had 40 to rp rate. Well, that was your goal. To be considered a good rper. However, the venture there never became tedious - as RP by its very nature never demands of you to repeat things. Rather, it requiers you to be original. On these free servers, you could work towards a thing, and given time and good roleplaying, you could achieve it. I recall on one of my first servers, on which I played for 2 years, that my character wanted to create and run a fencing school. And towards the end - he did. The DMs implemented a facility, a guildhouse, where those who enrolled in the school went to practice. And these servers, in nwn1 - are still around. Isn't that amazing? This game, ment for single player gaming, is still around with their RP servers, even though everything in the game, from the engine to the content - is basically obsolete.

Everything from this point on is an opinion.
It is not facts, merley my view, and hopefully something to think about.

Nostalgia aside, an MMO like DDO can only have an RP enviroment if the players within it chooses to. In nwn - if you are not playing your character, if you went "lol, *** was that?" then the DMs would kick you from the server, possibly ban your IP for not playing and acting as a real character would. You were -requiered- to play your character. In nwn, which was free, the DMs had no obligation towards the players. They created a server, added content and rules, and if it ment fun, the server became successful and full of players. Here, in this game - the GM's have a responsibility towards the players. Because players pay for playing, the DM's cannot remove you for not RPing your character - hence any RP server will ultimatly fail. Players cannot be requiered to play their role, and if they choose not to (since they have paid to play the game) the DMs cannot remove them if they play their role poorly (or not at all).

Another thing the DEV's aught to be struggling with, is the wish for better gear, and the wish for challenging dungeons. This is a paradox. If players attain better gear, the DEVs are requiered to create more difficult dungeons. If they create more difficult dungeons, they are requiered to create gear that match the difficulty. If they do not, you will have players complaining about how the gear didn't match how difficult it was to complete the quest. If the gear is too epic, then players will complain about how easy every quest is if you just get items X Y Z.

And that is basically what the problem is in this thread (and the game in general). You want super gear (the best for your specific build), but you do not want to pull the labour to get there. If you do get the gear, if you do attain all that you wish for that build - then your problem will be that there is nothing for you to achieve. Every dungeon will be easy cake for your twinked out powerbuilt character. So you will lament over how turbine has too little challenging dungeons. And if they, god forbid, would introduce some really challenging dungeons, you will be back to whining about how hard it is to get the gear necessary to complete X Y Z.

It's a never ending story of whining. The fact is - you cannot have everything you want. And if you do want to have the best of the best, it will require you to do boring, repetitive, or ungrateful things. In that sense, DDO is just like RL. If you don't suffer the labour, you won't become a millionaire. Creating a super difficult dungeon to attain that special gear, will only make it so you have to do the same quest over and over, because chances are you will fail in 99 times out of 100.

I do not have any answers. I wish I did. I dislike saying that the problem lies with those who are disconent, but in this case, I cannot see any other reason. You want the bestest gear of the bestest gear - that is a choice you have made. You are not requiered to having this gear. You are not expected to. You have made the choice that you want the best of the best - and you consider it a flaw with turbine that you have to do repetitive and ungrateful labour to get it. If you had a more laid back attitude to the game, and wanted to play it for the sake of having a bit of fun with some friends, you wouldn't percieve this as a problem.

I know I don't. I am fully aware that me gaming here is a story with an end. I will get to level 20, and I will possibly level a few more characters to 20. But I always keep in mind that this is a game - it is nothing else.

On the nwn servers, we had a policy:
This is a game, the purpose of any game is to have fun. If you are not having fun - quit.

If grinding is fun - keep going.
If it is not - stop.

/ End of subjective thoughts.

Thrudh
04-20-2010, 09:25 AM
I think they should *increase* the timer for raids to at least 5-7 days. Then they can up the exp and drop rate dramatically on items/tokens. That way it'll feel less grindy, since you're running the instance less and getting more loot per run (but still the same loot per day on average). The 3 day timer that they currently have forces them to make the loot drops very low or require you to collect an enormous amount of tokens to get something, as well as forces the players to run the same place more often.

That's a good idea... as long as the drop rates were doubled (i.e. two large ingrediants out of the 5th part chest in Shroud, 33% chance for raid loot instead of 16% in other raids, etc.)

Thrudh
04-20-2010, 10:02 AM
but what i really miss is just the chance at a random item droping in a chest ,ohhhh treasure cool. imo thats what i miss is just the chance at pulling somthing really cool from a chest REAL TREASURE

I miss that too...

There needs to be GOOD random chest drops again..

sirgog
04-20-2010, 10:32 AM
I miss that too...

There needs to be GOOD random chest drops again..

/signed to that.

The Risia crafting actually helped achieve this. My old +1 Axiomatic Burst Falchion of Greater Dragon Bane was a nice-looking Velah beater that was outclassed against the (original) big red by some Shroud items (Lightning 2, triple Frost, Holy/Icy Burst/Icy Blast).

But add Icy Burst to it, and suddenly it's better than every possible Shroud weapon for Velah (and it came just in time for Epic Velah too :) )


A permanent version of the Risia games, preferably with materials obtained by playing DDO rather than by playing Mario Brothers in the DDO client, would make random loot more useful.

emptysands
04-21-2010, 11:47 PM
Another option is increasing the drop rate and allowing more than two runes of the same type to stack. Allowing more chances and better ability to infer the collected items would make it much better but keep it within the existing framework.

Allow more than 2 of the same type to stack means you can be definite that each stack is of a different type. So you can grind runs until you have a good set (say 10 stacks of 2+), then try the lottery.

Building on this, another option to make Reaver's Refuge less of a grind and more interesting. Make the three craft runes Bound to Account. Leave the Draconic Runes Bound to Character.

That way if you find a stack of +5 Resists on one character you can give it to another character. Restricting the Draconic, means armor can not be made for a character until they have flagged for SOS.

Morningfrost
04-22-2010, 12:17 AM
The TR grind is not bad through the low levels to the mid levels. But the lack of lvl 20 content kinda roughs ya up a bit. Repeating quest at -60% almost forces you to drink XP pots (cha-ching). And the idea that you HAVE to run things N/N/N/N/N/H/E to not run out of content is silly. I do not even mind N/H/E...but come on, 5 Normal runs...

By the way, how much the XP from slayer counts on a TR levelling? I personally like slayers (still doing them at level cap), but it is another form of grinding, from a certain point of view.

Side note: I like when things can be farmed in different way, like the relics in Gianthold. Everything (including large ingredients, although with a very low drop rate) should be found in rare chests.

Khelden
04-22-2010, 12:29 AM
I don't consider DDO a grinding game so far... I did not do everything, but at the moment, it is wayyyyyyyyyyy behind many games I've played grind-wise [aye, did some korean-translated games too ^^]

AylinIsAwesome
04-22-2010, 12:55 AM
I haven't read the entire thread (much too late at night and it's quite long), but I will say I want less grind. Not no grind, but less.

Three of my characters now each have over 3000 Undead kills in the Sands...and I've yet to pull a Bloodstone. My Paladin has done around 200 runs so far in Reaver's Reach...still don't have any of the effects I want on the DT armour.


I would like to see an incremental increase in the drop rates of named items based on how many times you've completed the quest (for items that drop in quests) or how many times you've ransacked the chest (Slayer area drops). Not to make it "guaranteed" that you'll get it, but if an item normally has a 2% drop rate, after ransacking the chest 10 times that percentage could go up to say 4%. Another 10 ransacks, 6% now. Capping at maybe a 10% drop rate. Someone who has a better knowledge than I would need to come up with actual numbers though.

But I think that giving players a better chance to find the item after so many runs would make things feel a lot less "grindy". It could easily be explained by your character "learning what to look for" in the quest eventually, or something like that.

Khelden
04-22-2010, 12:58 AM
Hehe, would be cool to have a skill like "Treasure Finding" :)

Folonius
04-22-2010, 03:15 PM
I'm relativly new to the DDO scene. I played in the very early stages when they said PvP wasn't going to be part of this game, and the lack of content, lack of players, dull content turned me away. I came back a few months ago to find that the game was F2P, and after about two weeks into it, went P2P. My knowledge of the game isn't overly extensive, but I come from a long line of previous MMO's for the last 16 years.



<...>
Prevention and Deterrence
There is a bonus for completing a quest for the first time on a particular difficulty. This suggests to players that they will be rewarded for not getting stuck in a rut, grinding.

There is a penalty for repetition of the same quest, which does not diminish over time. Eventually repetition will result in 0 xp awarded. Again, this deters grinding.

Looting the same chests excessively results in a reduced reward, and then no reward which lasts for a week. This suggests that one should not grind as well, but allows for an eventual return to old stomping/looting grounds.

IMO, the grind should be stopped on the journey to level 20. The above listed does that.



Promotion and Requirements
In the last two years, there has been a trend with quests, requiring a player to run the same quest an excessive number of times. Reaver's Refuge, Meridia/Shroud, Necropolis IV, Amrath, Inspired Quarter, Dreaming Dark... in fact, it seems that every quest since Gianthold, which was on the very edge itself, has required and promoted the grind.

<...>

I remember a time when I once said... "You know why I love DDO...? Because I never feel like I am grinding." That DDO is dead.

Is this a grinding game, or is it not, because if it is... I may just leave and never come back again... and stop recommending that my friends try it out, and come join the server on which I play...

The grinding doesn't come into play until you hit level 20. In my short stay here, I've been jumping from one zone to another, flagging each character for raids. I'm not to worried about grinding because the equipment that drops is good enough to get me to level 20. I don't need any of the uber loot. When I hit level 20, maybe I'll grind for what's needed to get the uber loots, but for now, I'll just run quests that give me xp. When I get higher than a -10% xp bonus for repeating a quest, I'll move on to a different zone.

So the question is .... To grind, or not to grind?

The decision is up to the individual player. I don't grind on levels 1-19 ... I don't have a level 20 yet, but I'm one level from 20.

Pyromaniac
04-23-2010, 05:45 PM
Yes DDO is a grind if you want it to be. Want to do epic, start grinding. Doing normal? Pretty minimal grind.

Velexia
04-24-2010, 01:42 AM
In the last week I've run Epic Vault of Night three times, and Epic Demon Queen one time. Every single time I've gotten an Epic Raid token (except the first one, didn't know that the purple thing on top was my raid token), and a little bonus in the chest every single time. (Chaosblade, Cloak of the Silver Concord, Shard of the Bloodstone, Seal of the Kundarak Delving suit, etc)

So, Epic doesn't feel like a grind to me at all. That could possibly be because I only do Epic Raids with my guild, and we rock.

In the last week I ran SoS twice and Prey on the Hunter about 12 times. Nothing to show for it, nothing at all. That feels very much like a grind.

I've also run the Shroud circuit with my three high level characters, I've collected some Shroud ingredients, but not enough to make anything just yet, feels less grindy than SoS, but certainly some.

Oh, and I just want to say, wow that was amazing tonight in Epic VoN. ThAC0 is the best ^_~

Velexia
04-24-2010, 01:55 AM
By the way, how much the XP from slayer counts on a TR levelling? I personally like slayers (still doing them at level cap), but it is another form of grinding, from a certain point of view.

Side note: I like when things can be farmed in different way, like the relics in Gianthold. Everything (including large ingredients, although with a very low drop rate) should be found in rare chests.

I think it would be nice if we got Slayer rewards for killing monsters inside of quests, it would definitely be a much better way of getting players to kill off the monsters they encounter than Dungeon Alert.

Then of course there is the "what about the capped characters?" retort, to which I say another nice feature would be tying the loot found in chests to the percentage of monsters dealt with. After all, isn't this chest mechanic basically just a way of preventing processor clutter with each monster dropping loot?

The scenario here is... Players get Slayer credit for dropping monsters in quests, for XP, and additionally, if they kill nothing and loot a chest they get lower than normal loot... If they kill a standard amount of enemies they get standard loot, and if they go for conquest they get extra loot!

I see a problem with this though... players holding chests closed until the very end and then going back through and looting with this conquest bonus loot... so maybe just make specific groups of enemies in specific areas tied to the amount of loot in relevant chests. Possibly also have the end reward affected...? Would that make sense and is it possible...?

Velexia
04-24-2010, 02:02 AM
Building on this, another option to make Reaver's Refuge less of a grind and more interesting. Make the three craft runes Bound to Account. Leave the Draconic Runes Bound to Character.

That way if you find a stack of +5 Resists on one character you can give it to another character. Restricting the Draconic, means armor can not be made for a character until they have flagged for SOS.

You can't talk to the guy to get armor until you have completed SoS anyway, regardless of how many runes you have.

sirgog
04-24-2010, 03:32 AM
In the last week I've run Epic Vault of Night three times, and Epic Demon Queen one time. Every single time I've gotten an Epic Raid token (except the first one, didn't know that the purple thing on top was my raid token), and a little bonus in the chest every single time. (Chaosblade, Cloak of the Silver Concord, Shard of the Bloodstone, Seal of the Kundarak Delving suit, etc)

So, Epic doesn't feel like a grind to me at all. That could possibly be because I only do Epic Raids with my guild, and we rock.

In the last week I ran SoS twice and Prey on the Hunter about 12 times. Nothing to show for it, nothing at all. That feels very much like a grind.

I've also run the Shroud circuit with my three high level characters, I've collected some Shroud ingredients, but not enough to make anything just yet, feels less grindy than SoS, but certainly some.

Oh, and I just want to say, wow that was amazing tonight in Epic VoN. ThAC0 is the best ^_~


That's pretty exceptional luck in the Epics. I've run about 30-40 Epic Dungeons and have one item from them - I'd have more available if I wanted them (i.e. if I wanted an Adherent's Pendant Epic I could make it by buying the scroll).

emptysands
04-25-2010, 03:31 AM
You can't talk to the guy to get armor until you have completed SoS anyway, regardless of how many runes you have.

Exactly. Should not remove the need to run the quests in order to get the reward. But reducing the need to run "each" character though the same grind would be nice.

Artos_Fabril
04-25-2010, 03:50 AM
Then of course there is the "what about the capped characters?" retort, to which I say another nice feature would be tying the loot found in chests to the percentage of monsters dealt with. After all, isn't this chest mechanic basically just a way of preventing processor clutter with each monster dropping loot?

The scenario here is... Players get Slayer credit for dropping monsters in quests, for XP, and additionally, if they kill nothing and loot a chest they get lower than normal loot... If they kill a standard amount of enemies they get standard loot, and if they go for conquest they get extra loot!

I see a problem with this though... players holding chests closed until the very end and then going back through and looting with this conquest bonus loot... so maybe just make specific groups of enemies in specific areas tied to the amount of loot in relevant chests. Possibly also have the end reward affected...? Would that make sense and is it possible...?
This has gone completely off topic, but would your plan also improve the loot for the opposite end of the slayer spectrum (discreet, etc) as well?

knightgf
04-25-2010, 06:19 PM
I believe that, in any MMORPG, repetition of certain content can be a good thing, especially for anything thats of superior quality.

However, DDO:EU proves to be the exception of 'good grinding'. This game goes WAY WAY too far with the grinding principle, and its mostly because the developers are too lazy(Or cant afford) to put more content in. They are pretty much like, "Ok, we REALLY are getting sick and tired of making new content, so we'll just make certain content repeatable to save us work. Grind away suckers!" It makes me mad that they do this.

With the new quests and all, I haven't seen as much unacceptable grinding. Its there, granted, but it can usually be tolerated. The pre-EU content was definately aimed towards grinding because the company was failing and tried to extend the length of their products in controversial ways. Still, I don't think DDO:EU should grind as it did in the past. We don't want to move in the direction of grinding again unless we release content even more epic than Shroud. And we also don't want to 'luck grind' like in Reavers Refuge, that is totally unacceptable.

Velexia
06-03-2010, 10:26 PM
To update, I have been running Prey on the Hunter 3x a day about 4 days a week before and after this thread was made. I still have never seen the sovereign effect I am looking for.

=(

SardaSlayer
06-04-2010, 11:19 AM
/signed for less grind

Unfortunately no new suggestions on how to accomplish that.

Eladiun
06-04-2010, 11:30 AM
Every MMO is a grind game. The no grind experiment failed. RIP. Developers just cannot generate content at a high enough clip to keep a player base interested and motivated without the grind. Add in a year without any content and it exacerbates the problem. The only other mechanism that so far has proven effective is PVP and player ranks which in essence is a grind of it's own and totally out here.

osirisisis
06-05-2010, 04:47 AM
/sighed

I talk alot about this in the opening of my post here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=248569)

To me grind creates grind burn. I think grind burn is a major reason players leave.

Grind seems to be some corporate strategy to keep players playing and paying.... but I find this strategy a very poor choice in that it my make them play for X amount of time and then when burned enuff they leave. It seem to create a revoling door effect with population IE players come free to play they play and then pay and then a year or so in grind burn takes effect and they leave. It's like trying to full up a bucket with a hole in it.

Binding is the core of grind. If everything was unbound then players could trade which would create dramatically less grind, (I.E. U pull something you cant use but is great so you trade it for that thing you want), and also offer other entertainment ave. in commerce.

Binded Grind is an old idea that is a major factor in many MMO's failing. Most MMO's that have Binded Grind and have been around for more then 2 years are now hemeraging population. WOW is a great example of this.

Players don't want to grind they want to be entertained. With TR now in place there no reason to continue binded gear to keep players occupied grinding.

Turbine doesn't seem to agree, in they seem almost promote grind thro bind with 95% of high end gear being binded, and now even binding random named loot like the bauble and others.

Hopefully turbine will learn in time by un binding gear and dramatically decreasing grind that many less players will leave due to grind burn and the population bucket will fill up and reach new heights with entertained paying customers.

Or maybe not and DDO will grind its way where so many other MMO have gone and are going that promote binded grind in the past ........... and that's right to low population and sever shut down..... which is right where DDO was before turbine pulled the rabbit out of the hat with free to play and TR after making the biggest mistake in the games history by introducing the shroud crafting system and nerfing wounding of puncturing thus destroying the random loot system and giving players mindless portal beating with a binded clone and grind drone system....... a context that defines grind to a Tee.

Now with Free and TR approaching its first year we see population peaking and then starting to drop these last 2 months from grind burn.... I.E Free to play good bringing players in and Binded Grind bad making players leave hence the revolving door effect. Turbine Development team wake up and see that you can't be the best MMO in the world if you insist on follow in the fail binded grind system

wax_on_wax_off
06-05-2010, 05:19 AM
I think the developers have consciously allowed people who want to grind to grind, and people who don't want to grind, to not grind.

Having the best gear in the game isn't really that important and if you really want it then id expect a bit of a grind.

My biggest gripe is that there isn't enough incentive to challenge yourself.
Why can't we get some bonuses for doing quests that are above the parties character level?

I suppose the obvious answer is that people who twink level up fast enough already.

Difficult to combat that but you won't get a fix on the question unless you get a solution to that.

Maybe we need a new difficulty setting where you can choose to go into a dungeon but can't take consumables or twinked items. Be much harder to complete and the ratio of time to effort wouldn't be worthwhile but it might satisfy some peoples craving for a challenge in each dungeon.

D-molisher
06-05-2010, 05:23 AM
/ signed.

I hate the grind for gs components, havent even got boots for ToD on 1 char yet.
Chance i get boot are wery low, since basicly doing same stuff over and over like a broked cd playing >>> KILLS MY DDO FUNN.
So could you PLZ PLZ add some fun to do high lvl not grind some for years based- cause it will kill my funn in ddo otherwise eventually.
Grinding sux period.
So i spend my time TR*ng my monk into a 40 point build - then i dont know what to do when done.
But gives me some to do till x-mas & hope update 6 actually adds some funn to do instead off grind based or epic ....

Velexia
06-29-2010, 11:09 AM
This has gone completely off topic, but would your plan also improve the loot for the opposite end of the slayer spectrum (discreet, etc) as well?

That's easier to implement than one might think. Add a pick pocketing system, and not a trite one either, but with a single roll on the appropriate loot table for each pocket picked. Thus giving you the opportunity to pull say, a +1 tome from a Minotaur in Stormcleave, or a +5 Silver Longsword of Pure Good from an Orthon in The Devil You Know, etc.

AyumiAmakusa
06-29-2010, 11:16 AM
Pretty much everything below level 10 is not a grind. This is Turbine's way of getting new players to get hooked to the game. Once they reach Gianthold, the grind starts to creep in. Players will be thinking, 'Well it's only 20 relics each, I'll just spend a day at most collecting them. How hard can it be?' (Similar argument can be used for Sentinels and Relic of Sovereign Past).

And then the real grind begins. Once you reach into the levels where you start collecting ingredients to craft items, you'll start losing track of how many times you've run that one quest over and over again. By then you'll be saying to yourself, 'I've already reached this far, just a little more and I'll be done'.

But you'll never be done, because after crafting that oh so Uber item that you worked so hard for, you'll be off working on the next and before you know it, they announce new content with even more grind.

And the cycle continues.

Seikojin
06-29-2010, 12:48 PM
I was thinking about this topic a while back. I like the mechanics they have in place to hamper the grind. Nothing says stop doing this over and over like getting nothing out of it.

Given that there is a less than 1% chance to get anything you want, thousands of players flock to the quests that offer their loot.

Does having a pair of scims (or kopeshes, or whatever) really make or break the gameplay experience for me? It shouldn't, but it unfortunately does.

In order to TR you need to get epic tokens to trade in for a heart. Then you can take it and get your TR on. The problem here is that epic quests are not very easy for someone without the best gear in the game.

If you want to get the heart from the Store, you have to pay cash or earn points to buy it. Soo many points, you could start from level 1 and play to 20 and not earn enough points to buy the heart on sale.

I understand the grind very well. Do I have to participate? If I want to evolve my characters, yes. If I want to sit at 20th lvl on my first life, no.

What I do like though is all the quests they are adding. Yeah, even low level ones. Because when I do TR, having all those fresh quests to do at low level will be nice and help take some of the grind factor out of it.

Though, in my professional opinion, I do think loot needs to come down differently to help prevent grinding.

They can easilly add a ++ to the loot that is less than 1% on the tables. This can be tied to the decay timer for chest ransacking. What this would cause is during the 20 times you repeat that chest grab, the chances of each ++ loot will increase, making it liklier that it will appear in your table. If the incriment is .001%, it will yield .020% on the last roll before ransacking. If the incriment is .01%, it would add .2% increase in possible on the last chance. If we are dealing with whole numbers, then it would be 1%, giving the big, huge 20% chance bonus to drop on the last pull.

Or, there is another option.
They can make you have loot choices. They can take most chests and offer a selection of loot. Much like von6 and Invaders rewards. You get a choice for one item, or two in my mind for Greensteel comps. I mentioned this in a lag reduction thread IIRC. This would alter what loot you get to your taste. Programatically, more to do. But it would allow the players to have less of a grind and feel more reward from the work in the quest.

Ormindo
06-29-2010, 01:22 PM
For long, DDO has been for me a new Eve for the MMOs. But since I'm higher-leveled, it is almost worse than other games...

Samiusbot
06-29-2010, 01:49 PM
I have to ask all of you that feel the game is too grindy “Who is making you grind?"

Because I don't think Turbine is forcing you to grind something out. Or is there some mail I have not gotten yet saying that if I don't get the ideal proprieties on my DT I will be killed? Or if I just have a single shard green steel item that I will become homeless.

And I love TRing replaying my favorite guys up the cap again with all that great old gear now just sitting in my back because I am capped and it is not so hot at cap. But If it is not fun to play my level 10 TR am I forced to play him until cap? No.

So who is making your play a grind? Sure there are some design things that the Devs have built that are more time intense then others, but if you put in the time you must have felt that it was worth the time or you would have done something else, right?

Is Turbine perfect? No. But it takes two to tango. I bet grinding takes at least two also.

KKDragonLord
06-29-2010, 04:31 PM
DDO is by no means the exception

The difference is, the quality of the content makes most of the game fun even if after you have already run it before.

Much of the grind is a choice for most people.

Running the same quest repeatedly to maximize XP gains while minimizing Time expenditure is a valid play style for lots of people, to these players, completing optionals, disabling traps, killing foes and breaking things is usually defined as a waste of time.

Obviously, we might change styles every now and then according to our objectives.

Optimizers want to become ever better acquiring the top notch Loot to their builds, and eventually thats where we all will end up after hitting cap.

It wouldnt be fair to consider TR as a grind by itself because, despite popular belief, acumulating XP is not the only driving goal in most players lives. It is a nice way to allow players to make their main characters marginally better while enjoying most of the great content of the low to medium level range.

Lots people has stuck with DDO for almost 4 years now and, while a great deal of players have abandoned the game and returned every now and then because of the sheer lack of content of the early years, those who remained have managed to keep themselves entertained through all these years (and changes).

The reason is because DDO is a game that inspires people to make and play several characters at once because of the sheer variety of builds and possibilities, and also because of the need of certain roles in parties, which makes people create more characters to support their guilds and friends whenever they can.

A lot has changed since Mod 9, thats for sure, and a lot of grind mechanics have been implemented well before that. with The shroud equipment and the dragontouched slotmachine system serving as relatively successful examples. Now that the game has hit the level cap Ring crafting, TR and Epic stuff are changing the balance of grind in DDO.

Considering those change to be a bad thing would be unfair, because without grind mechanics the average player would simply become bored and leave after a while. Now the game is getting richer with new quests every update (though the quality of these might be questioned) and there are new things being added, making constant changes to classes and play styles which in turn works as an incentive for veteran players to try making new characters or TRing.

I certainly have not reach my quota of DDO play, even though im not one for MMOs at all. I might come and go a lot (especially now i can just be premium forever) but i am not the kind of player that stands grinding too much, lucky for me, i can always play a different quest or a different class each time and still enjoy the game.

If my personal friends ever believed me when i tell them how good this game is and joined the game i would probably play it a lot more.

If you ever play sooo much you cant even have anymore fun anymore, try spicing things up a bit, making a static group to play every once and a while or even giving a shot at Perma Death play. I don't know much about other MMOs, but i don't care to know either as long as there are options to make DDO keep being fun.

If only it became possible to allow players to design quests (with the appropriate limitations in place for experience and Loot availability balanced with time completion). Then DDO would truly live forever.

Arintal
07-20-2010, 10:33 AM
Any MMO requires grinding, without it your playerbase would wither and dry up.

It's how you impliment that grind that matters.

GH, for example, isn't a grind. I've ran I don't know how many characters through those quests countless times. And the next character I create I'll still enjoy it.

The Vale, again not a grind IMO. After multiple characters and items created I still enjoy the quests.

SoS. I like the quests, but with no progression toward what I want/need this goes in the grind category.

Necro. Again, I like these quests and I can see an end in sight, so no grind.

Amrath/TOD. Too little progression (read **** poor boot ing/ring drop rate) this goes in the grind category.

So the game is both grindy and non-grindy IMO. I don't mind farming an item, I do mind seeing no progression toward that item.

Well Guild Wars ?

Top gear from start with pvp char. Or top gear in week with rpg char? And was it failure? Nope.