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View Full Version : Whats wrong with Greatswords?



Rexmundis
04-14-2010, 11:26 PM
It looks to statiscally do more damage due to the roll of 2d6 instead of 1d12 (the averages are slightly higher). But it crits less and for less damage. Which should I get a +4 greatsword or +4 Greataxe...or does it matter?

WeaselKing
04-14-2010, 11:29 PM
Greatswords are falchions with a bad crit range. So unless you are a Warforged FVS, or the greatsword is the Sword of Shadow, pick a falchion or a greataxe.

LunaCee
04-14-2010, 11:45 PM
Actually you would be better off going for a +1 Elemental Burst of Pure Good than a pure +4 unless you absolutely need the +4 to hit, in which case you have other problems.

To be honest a Carnifex from the Delera's end rewards would outdo either of the +4 weapons you mentioned.

WeaselKing
04-14-2010, 11:57 PM
Actually you would be better off going for a +1 Elemental Burst of Pure Good than a pure +4 unless you absolutely need the +4 to hit, in which case you have other problems.

To be honest a Carnifex from the Delera's end rewards would outdo either of the +4 weapons you mentioned.

/signed

A +1 elemental burst greatclub of pure good would probably even do better than those +4s.

Gadget2775
04-15-2010, 12:04 AM
Actually you would be better off going for a +1 Elemental Burst of Pure Good than a pure +4 unless you absolutely need the +4 to hit, in which case you have other problems.
**SNIP**

Soooo much wrong with that statement. You don't know what class, quest, difficulties, gear, build or playstyle. It's quite possible that he's not only a new player (IE gear deficient), but also a 3/4 BaB class that isn't min/maxed, which is used to run elite content. In that sort of situation it's quite easy to miss enough to want an additional +3 on a weapon. This is of course presuming he can afford a +1 Elemental Blast of Pure Good. Cause we all know that weapons like that don't go for an arm and a leg on the auction house right? I mean every single new player I come across is twinked out and good to go from the moment they sign up! Sheesh.

LordArkan
04-15-2010, 12:28 AM
In the pen 'n' paper RPG, the greatsword is by far your best option for a weapon, and power attack is a waste of time. (It was only worth using a falchion over a greatsword if you were power attacking for at least -10 and STILL hitting on about a 5+, AND the monster wasn't immune to critical hits)

However, in DDO, power attack is actually useful due to the increasing attack bonus on iterative attacks (in PnP your attack bonus decreased on later attacks, meaning that the attack penalty would lower your overall damage, since you were causing your 3rd and 4th attacks in the round to miss). More damage = even better critical hits, meaning you'll want more of them (falchion) or even better multipliers (greataxe).

Racial enhancements obviously steer this decision as well. Elves can get bonuses with Falchions, Dwarves can get bonuses with Greataxes.
Hopefully this was helpful and not too rambly. :)

Angelus_dead
04-15-2010, 12:29 AM
In the pen 'n' paper RPG, the greatsword is by far your best option for a weapon, and power attack is a waste of time.
That is contrary to the D&D 3.5 rules.


However, in DDO, power attack is actually useful due to the increasing attack bonus on iterative attacks (in PnP your attack bonus decreased on later attacks, meaning that the attack penalty would lower your overall damage, since you were causing your 3rd and 4th attacks in the round to miss).
You apparently overestimate the frequency of iterative attacks occurring under the D&D 3.5 rules.

LordArkan
04-15-2010, 12:38 AM
That is contrary to the D&D 3.5 rules.


You apparently overestimate the frequency of iterative attacks occurring under the D&D 3.5 rules.



There was quite a thread on the subject on the official Character Optimization forums back in the day, which was very heavy on the math. Power Attack is a feat you take because it opens up access to other, better feats. Outside of crazy stuff like Leap Attack builds or Duskblades with Arcane Strike, you are generally better off not doing it.

And iterative attacks happened all the time in 3.5. Free 5 foot step. Items and abilities granting extra move actions, or the myriad of ways to get pounce. Or the twelve different ways for casters to move you over there outside of your turn.

LunaCee
04-15-2010, 12:50 AM
I dunno about you but in PnP that power attack could come in pretty handy now and then.

Take a level of sorceror... take the spell True Strike. Have a fair number of levels of Psychic Warrior, take the Dragon Disciple prestige class for about 4 levels at least. Come out of it with 3 extra castings per day of True Strike, +4 STR. And the fact that you can Psionic Lion's Charge into a string of full attacks on somebody the round after you cast True Strike? BLISS!

LordArkan
04-15-2010, 12:54 AM
True Strike only applies to your next attack roll, and is a standard action to cast.

Arcane Strike, on the other hand, works on all of your attacks for 1 round, and is a swift action to activate...

Uska
04-15-2010, 12:56 AM
I dunno about you but in PnP that power attack could come in pretty handy now and then.

Take a level of sorceror... take the spell True Strike. Have a fair number of levels of Psychic Warrior, take the Dragon Disciple prestige class for about 4 levels at least. Come out of it with 3 extra castings per day of True Strike, +4 STR. And the fact that you can Psionic Lion's Charge into a string of full attacks on somebody the round after you cast True Strike? BLISS!

That kind of stuff is why I was never a super fan of 3.x and why I really limited what I allowed at con games(my players knew better)

valorik
04-15-2010, 12:58 AM
Greatswords are falchions with a bad crit range. So unless you are a Warforged FVS, or the greatsword is the Sword of Shadow, pick a falchion or a greataxe.

wrong, greatswords and falchions are both superior to greataxes or mauls, the average is x4 vs x3 with no improved crit and x8 vs x6, and the base damage is lower on greataxe.

Greatswords are a superior weapon for low levels, once you pick up power attack, start using falchions.

LunaCee
04-15-2010, 01:02 AM
Yes but if you were building it right you were using a two hander and you only *needed* that first hit. Any additional hits were a bonus. Besides, +4 STR from DD is +2 to hit, Charge is another +2 to hit and applies to all attacks that round. So a -5 power attack is when done right is really only giving you a -3 because its a charge attack. And if you are making the *most* of the true strike and its a -10 power attack. Well, either you get lucky and get another hit or two in or you don't. If you do its hurting and hurting BAD.

LordArkan
04-15-2010, 01:10 AM
Yeah, but at that point why bother with Psychic Warrior and Psionic Lion's Charge? Go Frenzied Berserker + Rage Mage for Supreme Power Attack along with Leap Attack and get something like +6 damage for every -1 on your attack roll (maybe even more, there were a lot of stacking abilities that modified that...)

LunaCee
04-15-2010, 01:36 AM
1) Flavor

2) Psychic Warrior being able to pull off things that aren't just damage. Same PW could be an absolutely sneaky fellow with some enchanted armor and the Chameleon style powers. Or using the psionic version of Dimension Door to cross a ravine or something...

3) That there methods of damage dealing aren't all one trick ponies. The ability to deal damage and self heal in the same round with things like Empathic Transfer, Hostile. The fact that with Weapon of Energy you could add an element to your weapon temporarily that you know your opponent is weak to.

4) That if you really wanted to you could burn a feat to give them a power from another list to open up some *very* unusual ways to do things. Such as gaining Fly and being able to now and then abuse a fly speed of 60ft.

Angelus_dead
04-15-2010, 02:39 AM
And iterative attacks happened all the time in 3.5. Free 5 foot step. Items and abilities granting extra move actions, or the myriad of ways to get pounce. Or the twelve different ways for casters to move you over there outside of your turn.
Gah. By listing a bunch of special techniques to enable iterative attacks, you have disproved your own claim that they are common.

LordArkan
04-15-2010, 02:55 AM
"Special Techniques"?

The free five foot step that EVERY CHARACTER CAN DO IF THEY DON'T OTHERWISE MOVE is a special technique?
What kind of 3.5 games have you been playing in? o.O

tihocan
04-15-2010, 08:06 AM
Greatswords are very good low level weapons. At higher levels the increased critical range of Falchions make those better, and Greataxes also tend to be favored compared to Greatswords because (1) Dwarves get bonuses with them, (2) More importantly, the x3 multiplier makes them more useful in auto-crit situations, which can be quite common in some high level quests.

Kralgnax
04-15-2010, 08:08 AM
Nothing's "wrong" with greatswords, and for lower level characters with finite resources, a greasword may well be your best readily available weapon.

At high levels and fighting crit-able creatures - where critical hit considerations rule, a Falchion or greataxe is almost certainly a better choice - unless you're a Paladin using Hloy sword or have that +12 Hackmaster the Sword of Shadows.

At (say) level 5, for a new main character with no cash to speak of, the Nicked greatsword from the Sharn AP may well be your best affordable two-hander.

Assuming you'e a level 6 or 7-ish character with limited cash, I'd buy whatever two-hander you can find cheap on the AH. If you get lucky and find a good one, great! With care or a decent group you can do the Delara's tomb AP and hope you get Carnifex (+2 Keen Greataxe, ML4) as an end reward, but many hearts have been broken that way :eek:

Bacab
04-15-2010, 08:10 AM
Greatswords are falchions with a bad crit range. So unless you are a Warforged FVS, or the greatsword is the Sword of Shadow, pick a falchion or a greataxe.


This...or if you happen to pull a Metalline+ holy/Pure good and you are fighting A Devil in a Raid...and you do not have a Falchion or Greataxe that breaks DR.