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View Full Version : To all you so called leaders!!??



Tummada
04-12-2010, 08:45 AM
This rant/suggestion is not intended for those leaders who stick with THEIR group even when the going gets tough, even when the party whips, even when the group is full of noobs and the out look is bleak!! This message is intended for those so called LEADERS who when the going gets tough they are the first to throw out an insult to the rest of the group and leave the party!!! These so called leaders in my opinion SUCK the big one and should be penalized!!!

I was Running crucible over the weekend on hard, we had a party wipe while navigating through the maze, the leader yells out "this party is full of noobs" then LEAVES group!?!...***...

I remember when I first started playing this game, when a party would wipe players were more willing to stick through it...everyone would recall except 1 and come back in with renown determination to complete the quest...where are those people? COME BACK!!!

So here is my suggestion; Once a party enters a quest if a party member LEAVES group because things are going south then that toon who left should be penalized next time they log on weather by XP penalty or some other means. What do you think?

Judo
04-12-2010, 08:51 AM
/not signed

Sometimes, the party members ARE all noobs.

You should be penalized for being a noob.

Oh wait, they did, then took it away.

LunaCee
04-12-2010, 08:54 AM
/notsigned

Why? Because if I bail on a party that is OBVIOUSLY incapable of doing the quest because I don't want to blow 4-5 times the resources it should require to "give" said group a completion... I should have every right to do so without penalty.

Do I lead parties? Now and then, usually not raids and the like though. I'll stick around if there is a decent chance of success and it was just lag or a failed save at the wrong time that rolled the party. If the problem is that people cannot do what is required. I am outta there no questions asked.

There is a big difference between ragequit at first sign of trouble and quitting because staying with said group of incompetents any longer is just wasting my time and plat.

LazarusPossum
04-12-2010, 08:54 AM
I agree with the part about patience, determination, and not throwing in the towel at the first sign of difficulty.

However, a computer can't really tell the difference between bad luck and noobishness.

Krag
04-12-2010, 08:56 AM
I think it's stupid to penalize people for not wishing to carry 5 pileons on their backs.

Memnir
04-12-2010, 08:58 AM
No.

Bunker
04-12-2010, 08:58 AM
If you want a penalty or wiping, just ask what happen when a character used to die in a quest. Since your whole party wiped, regardless of who stays or goes, everyone should be given a penalty, that is if you want one.

Breaking group should never give a penalty. More times then not, players have to split for R/L reasons, and break group, so why should something exsist that would bea negative for them.

In the old days, dying meant loss of XP, you want something, ask for that. At least then, evryone in your PARTY receives the same penalty for a PARTY wipe.

Gercho
04-12-2010, 09:03 AM
When you hit recall, there should pop a question "why are you leaving the quest? check one"

- Your party is full of noobs and there is no hope of completion
- You have some unexpected rl issue
- You are just farming and dont want the completion
- You are dead and need to recall to resurrect and come back
- You just opened the instance for some friends, never planned to run the quest

If the person answers the first option, then they get a xp penalty!

Tummada
04-12-2010, 09:05 AM
If you want a penalty or wiping, just ask what happen when a character used to die in a quest. Since your whole party wiped, regardless of who stays or goes, everyone should be given a penalty, that is if you want one.

Breaking group should never give a penalty. More times then not, players have to split for R/L reasons, and break group, so why should something exsist that would bea negative for them.

In the old days, dying meant loss of XP, you want something, ask for that. At least then, evryone in your PARTY receives the same penalty for a PARTY wipe.


R/L issues are different. I'm not talking about DC because everyone from time to time has computer/internet issue's that are out of their control. I'm only talking about people who LEAVE group when the going gets tough.

Lerincho
04-12-2010, 09:08 AM
negative

/not signed

/not supported

people don't stick it out in hard time in RL expecting them to do so in a game is insane.

Tummada
04-12-2010, 09:08 AM
When you hit recall, there should pop a question "why are you leaving the quest? check one"

- Your party is full of noobs and there is no hope of completion
- You have some unexpected rl issue
- You are just farming and dont want the completion
- You are dead and need to recall to resurrect and come back
- You just opened the instance for some friends, never planned to run the quest

If the person answers the first option, then they get a xp penalty!

option 1 =xp penalty
option 2 is a DC and does not apply
option 3 must have been agreed on by all members, if not xp penalty applies
option 4 no xp penalty for dedication
option 5 since you only opened the instance for friends you never actually went in the quest no xp penalty applies

see how easy it is..

Temko
04-12-2010, 09:10 AM
When you hit recall, there should pop a question "why are you leaving the quest? check one"

- Your party is full of noobs and there is no hope of completion
- You have some unexpected rl issue
- You are just farming and dont want the completion
- You are dead and need to recall to resurrect and come back
- You just opened the instance for some friends, never planned to run the quest

If the person answers the first option, then they get a xp penalty!

a foolproof method. :eyeroll:

Lerincho
04-12-2010, 09:11 AM
When you hit recall, there should pop a question "why are you leaving the quest? check one"

- Your party is full of noobs and there is no hope of completion
- You have some unexpected rl issue
- You are just farming and dont want the completion
- You are dead and need to recall to resurrect and come back
- You just opened the instance for some friends, never planned to run the quest

If the person answers the first option, then they get a xp penalty!

nope. can you not see why this would be horrible to implement? No one would answer anything that causes a penalty.

Tummada
04-12-2010, 09:11 AM
negative

/not signed

/not supported

people don't stick it out in hard time in RL expecting them to do so in a game is insane.

I really don't have much to say about this post it unfortunately speaks for it's self.

Rav'n
04-12-2010, 09:14 AM
option 1 =xp penalty
option 2 is a DC and does not apply
option 3 must have been agreed on by all members, if not xp penalty applies
option 4 no xp penalty for dedication
option 5 since you only opened the instance for friends you never actually went in the quest no xp penalty applies

see how easy it is..

Watch how many Unexpected Real Life situations pop up. :D

Sounds to me like you got bit and want to bite someone in turn. Easy fix... from now on, form your own groups... when someone bails on you... add them to your 'friends' list.

Bunker
04-12-2010, 09:16 AM
R/L issues are different. I'm not talking about DC because everyone from time to time has computer/internet issue's that are out of their control. I'm only talking about people who LEAVE group when the going gets tough.

I understand that is whom you are talking about. My point is how do you pick who leaves for what reason when it comes todetermining whm receives a penalty.

In this particular situation, sure the player that bailed didn't receive a penalty, but you sure did benifit from a bonus. What I mean is, the player was lame enough to bail on the group, probably has a sore personality, doesn't want to be there, maybe in whines a bit, yells at your fellow party members, ect ect ect..... Do you really want someone in that group.

Now if in fact it was the party leader, and the other 5 members, you included, have never been in the Crucible, sure you lost a good guide perhaps, but then you now benifit from the enjoyment and excitement of adventuring an learning a quest on your own.

What I'm trying to say is, yes that player is in fact lame. It is sad when players want to play a game, but dismiss any opportunit for a challenge. However, I find it much more enjoyable when the players in MY group want to be there. Don't you?

Tymoriel_Ayreweaver
04-12-2010, 09:17 AM
lol. So you want the leader to spend money on repair costs and resources to help a bunch of incompetents through a quest. That is quite amusing.

Gercho
04-12-2010, 09:18 AM
Nobody picked the sarchasm in my post? the point is that there is no way to know why someone is leaving, other than asking, and nobody would answer truthfully if that means a penalty...

taurean430
04-12-2010, 09:22 AM
This rant/suggestion is not intended for those leaders who stick with THEIR group even when the going gets tough, even when the party whips, even when the group is full of noobs and the out look is bleak!! This message is intended for those so called LEADERS who when the going gets tough they are the first to throw out an insult to the rest of the group and leave the party!!! These so called leaders in my opinion SUCK the big one and should be penalized!!!

I was Running crucible over the weekend on hard, we had a party wipe while navigating through the maze, the leader yells out "this party is full of noobs" then LEAVES group!?!...***...

I remember when I first started playing this game, when a party would wipe players were more willing to stick through it...everyone would recall except 1 and come back in with renown determination to complete the quest...where are those people? COME BACK!!!

So here is my suggestion; Once a party enters a quest if a party member LEAVES group because things are going south then that toon who left should be penalized next time they log on weather by XP penalty or some other means. What do you think?

If something goes bad like a failed save or what have you, and someone ragequits, that's fine. It's much easier to continue the quest and complete without a personality like that in group. Those who want to continue can res out and reset the quest by reforming. No penalty, no disadvantage really. I've had the pleasure of grouping with folks that stick things out, and I've had the pleasure of having ragequitters in group. I say pleasure both ways as it's comical to me most times to have someone exclaim something they think is abrasive, and then run away before anyone can actually respond to them.

There are times though that things just aren't going to work. I wasn't there and have no idea what the situation was. I can site some examples though of when it's better to try it with another mix rather than have repeat wipes.

I don't think I'd ever support a system that would force you to continue to be somewhere you don't want to be in the game though. I'd rather reserve the right for anyone to leave for whatever the situation might be. It's inconvenient at times, but it happens...

Aurora1979
04-12-2010, 09:22 AM
"Im sorry, i have to leave. Being around idiots give me sore knuckles."

Judo
04-12-2010, 09:24 AM
Nobody picked the sarchasm in my post? the point is that there is no way to know why someone is leaving, other than asking, and nobody would answer truthfully if that means a penalty...

I think the only one who failed was the OP lol

My favorite excuse ever was a guildy who left a failing pug lowby group, with the best excuse ive ever heard...

"Sorry guys, I just cr*p*ed my pants, i have to go"

That should totally be one of the options.

And to the OP, thankfully, DDO is not a socialist republic, where your betters get penalized for your underachievements. :rolleyes:

Shaamis
04-12-2010, 09:26 AM
that suggestion, while it might curb this behaviour, will not really help in the grand scheme.

It will cause people to become more selective on grouping in PUGs, and will cause more animosity between newer players and those who consider themselves "vets" which the line is beginning to blur on.

LunaCee
04-12-2010, 09:30 AM
Ohh actually now that I think further on it here is a *really* good reason that this will get the kiss of death and never see the light of day.

Griefing. Anytime you hand players a tool or effect that can be potentially abused to ruin the fun of other players there will be a number of people that go out of their way to do so.

With your suggestion we'd have pikers in darn near every quest... especially places like Misery's Peak for newcomers. They won't go into the room to let the quest complete, and furthermore you can't quit to get away from the griefer without taking a penalty... This would be even worse with griefers screwing up raids.

So yeah /notsigned yet again!

Tummada
04-12-2010, 09:30 AM
lol. So you want the leader to spend money on repair costs and resources to help a bunch of incompetents through a quest. That is quite amusing.

Oh I'm sorry I hate to make you use YOUR resources to help others! Don't ever play a cleric you'll hate it. And yes most low level toon like the one's i'm talking about are incompetent and need help, sometimes above and beyond help!!

it's amazing how many people are sticking up for quitting when the going gets tough or they think their fellow party goers are noobs. Just because someone does not know a quest and may hinder progress does not give anyone the right to leave group. It's not only a waist of your time not to complete the quest but your also wasting other peoples time by leaving!!

Lerincho
04-12-2010, 09:36 AM
Oh I'm sorry I hate to make you use YOUR resources to help others! Don't ever play a cleric you'll hate it. And yes most low level toon like the one's i'm talking about are incompetent and need help, sometimes above and beyond help!!

it's amazing how many people are sticking up for quitting when the going gets tough or they think their fellow party goers are noobs. Just because someone does not know a quest and may hinder progress does not give anyone the right to leave group. It's not only a waist of your time not to complete the quest but your also wasting other peoples time by leaving!!

I play cleric, and so does the person you were responding with. There is a difference though, we are not babysitters on our clerics, we actually determine how we want to use OUR resources. When it is cheaper spell point wise to ressurect you than to keep you healed, guess where you'll spend most of the quest? I have an entire bag slot waiting for soul stones.

taurean430
04-12-2010, 09:38 AM
Oh I'm sorry I hate to make you use YOUR resources to help others! Don't ever play a cleric you'll hate it. And yes most low level toon like the one's i'm talking about are incompetent and need help, sometimes above and beyond help!!

it's amazing how many people are sticking up for quitting when the going gets tough or they think their fellow party goers are noobs. Just because someone does not know a quest and may hinder progress does not give anyone the right to leave group. It's not only a waist of your time not to complete the quest but your also wasting other peoples time by leaving!!

I realize the you are upset regarding the event.

Yet promoting the expectation that people stick it out in a regular quest and burn their resources is a bit much. Sometimes quests fail. The logical thing to do is to find out why and do something about it. Raging at the person who quit when the party wiped, and anyone who finds reasons or scenarios where it's acceptable to do so is not the answer. I agree with you in that it sucks when that happens. Sometimes a failed save is all it takes to start a chain of deaths ending in complete party wipe. And the guy shouldn't have ranted as you say. But they had every right to drop if it seemed to them that the completion wouldn't happen without digging too far into consumable resources.

Lerincho
04-12-2010, 09:40 AM
Do not like that a party leader could leave after a party wipe? Be your own leader instead of rely on someone else.

CompAg
04-12-2010, 09:42 AM
While I agree with the sentiment, I cannot agree with the conclusion that a penalty is appropriate. There are various reason to leave a party and the program cannot tell the difference. The leader will be penalized as any player is who behaves poorly in groups. They don't get grouped with as much.

My main concern with your post is how many veteran posters actually posted that it's ok to drop party just because it isn't going well. If your party doesn't know the quest or isn't doing what you think they should, it is your job to guide them. Not yell at them and leave them looking for a replacement. You built the party, so you should know by levels and classes if you have an adequate party. Any party of appropriate level and makeup should be able to finish Crucible (or other very challenging quest) with the proper guidance.

And if there is a party wipe, due to inexperience, bad luck on traps, or someone just pulled a little too much, regroup. If you think it is a complete lost cause, say so as nicely as possible. Others will probably agree and be more than willing to follow you to a more challenge appropriate quest or retry the current quest on a lower difficulty. If handled diplomatically you can even leave the party to move on to a more profitable party. Try something like, "Guys I don't think we are ready for this." Followed by, "I think I am going to try that other quest on the group list."

There is never a reason to yell or be rude to your party, just because the party isn't doing well. 99% of the time, when a party fails, it is the leader's failure. Try leading a group instead of just building it and expecting everyone to know what to do.

Lagin
04-12-2010, 09:47 AM
HHMMM!!

99% of the time, I wont run with people I dont know!
That eliminated the problem you speak of!

About half of the new players we have in-game, have some real bad habits, or are too young to have common courtesy.

The other half seem ok!

As for a penalty! NO WAY!
That would have to be player monitored! Oh I can see the neg rep bar in game! lol

petegunn
04-12-2010, 09:53 AM
Whilst I know your intentions are honourable, I'm experienced enough to know when a situation is untenable lets look at what happened (you guys wiped in the maze of crucible on hard).Call it a day, obviously some players where snorkel deep over their heads best to save yourself the pain and get out early.

However I do not agree with how the party leader reacted a more socialble response should have been "sorry guys this isn't working out would you like to try casual"? :D

Cyr
04-12-2010, 09:54 AM
A penalty for someone who leaves group due to noob wipe after a party wipe. That sounds like the perfect reason to leave group...

I know it's totally in the games long term interest to penalize people for sticking with pugs which are driving them to drinking.

On the scale of bad suggestions this one rates a :
9/10

Bunker
04-12-2010, 09:54 AM
About half of the new players we have in-game, have some real bad habits, or are too young to have common courtesy.

The other half seem ok!

And of course, 100% of new players are NEW. That is something a lot of us vets seem to forget sometimes, is that new players are new. It may appear like rudeness, or bad habits, and I do agree with you ferd that those players definitly exsist, but for more then 1/2 of the new players that have joined in the past 3-5 months, they are simply just NEW.

I think some above have stated just like others have on similar threads, Rule #1 to avoid bad leaders is: BE THE LEADER AND START YOUR OWN GROUP.

BurningDownTheHouse
04-12-2010, 09:59 AM
Oh I'm sorry I hate to make you use YOUR resources to help others! Don't ever play a cleric you'll hate it. And yes most low level toon like the one's i'm talking about are incompetent and need help, sometimes above and beyond help!!

it's amazing how many people are sticking up for quitting when the going gets tough or they think their fellow party goers are noobs. Just because someone does not know a quest and may hinder progress does not give anyone the right to leave group. It's not only a waist of your time not to complete the quest but your also wasting other peoples time by leaving!!

Who the hell are you to tell anyone they have no right do somthing?
Lucky for me I don't live in your red-banered state...

JOTMON
04-12-2010, 10:05 AM
So here is my suggestion; Once a party enters a quest if a party member LEAVES group because things are going south then that toon who left should be penalized next time they log on weather by XP penalty or some other means. What do you think?

Not gonna get much support for this one.

Perhaps this party was full of noobs, but it appears like the leader wasn't prepared or was incapable of leading this party to a successful finish. Should you keep trying or move on and change a weak aspect of the group, like finding someone who would lead the party and maybe take some time to show the newbs the quest.

There is a place where you can add special people like the one that bailed on your party..

/squelch

or add him to your friends list with a comment as to why he is a special friend.


Shouldn't be anything stopping you or someone else in the party from taking over and reforming the group and running again, fill that now empty spot with someone usefull.

petegunn
04-12-2010, 10:08 AM
Who the hell are you to tell anyone they have no right do somthing?
Lucky for me I don't live in your red-banered state...

Careful burner when you mention RED Vetkin will pop out of the woodwork "surprise comrades" closely followed with the red angry face.

nbennet
04-12-2010, 10:11 AM
Not signed.

I have a question for the OP: when the leader left group, what did the rest of you do? Did the party regroup with someone else taking over, and come back to complete? Because if you didn't:
1. The rest of you also lacked determination, and your complaint is hypocritical
AND
2. You were hoping for a person to hold your hand through the quest, and were unable to complete without one

When someone drops out of a group I am in, it typically has limited impact because competent players will be able to shortman until they either find another or complete. If someone ragequits, you lol and keep going. If your group wasn't able to do that I can understand someone not wanting to waste their time, especially on a quest like Crucible. People have to leave all the time for all kinds of reasons, and the the loss of a single person is rarely insurmountable.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-12-2010, 10:12 AM
So here is my suggestion; Once a party enters a quest if a party member LEAVES group because things are going south then that toon who left should be penalized next time they log on weather by XP penalty or some other means. What do you think?

If anything you said had merit you lost all credibilty with this statement. All that would do is discourage grouping.

Hokiewa
04-12-2010, 10:17 AM
Oh I'm sorry I hate to make you use YOUR resources to help others! Don't ever play a cleric you'll hate it. And yes most low level toon like the one's i'm talking about are incompetent and need help, sometimes above and beyond help!!

it's amazing how many people are sticking up for quitting when the going gets tough or they think their fellow party goers are noobs. Just because someone does not know a quest and may hinder progress does not give anyone the right to leave group. It's not only a waist of your time not to complete the quest but your also wasting other peoples time by leaving!!

Amazing. To think your making anybody do anything is beyond absurd. It's pretty clear at this point where the problem is.

Judo
04-12-2010, 10:18 AM
Who the hell are you to tell anyone they have no right do somthing?
Lucky for me I don't live in your red-banered state...

I totally called the communist tendencies first.

Hokiewa
04-12-2010, 10:20 AM
I totally called the communist tendencies first.

Maybe true, but you win the prize with the **** your pants suggestion. One of the guilds I'm in has several ancient members. I'm not entirely sure that that would have been a lie when they dropped group.....:D

BurningDownTheHouse
04-12-2010, 10:21 AM
Careful burner when you mention RED Vetkin will pop out of the woodwork "surprise comrades" closely followed with the red angry face.



Lol, at least I don't live in his adopted state ither :p

BurningDownTheHouse
04-12-2010, 10:23 AM
I totally called the communist tendencies first.

I guess you're right.
In my deffence, I rarely bother to read your posts. :p

Judo
04-12-2010, 10:24 AM
Maybe true, but you win the prize with the **** your pants suggestion. One of the guilds I'm in has several ancient members. I'm not entirely sure that that would have been a lie when they dropped group.....:D

Where you live hokie, I'm in Harrisonburg :) and the fella in question is 30 lol, just a crazy mother****er lol


I guess you're right.
In my deffence, I rarely bother to read your posts. :p

Burn!

BurningDownTheHouse
04-12-2010, 10:26 AM
Burn!

Always do. :D

Tummada
04-12-2010, 10:29 AM
If something goes bad like a failed save or what have you, and someone ragequits, that's fine. It's much easier to continue the quest and complete without a personality like that in group. Those who want to continue can res out and reset the quest by reforming. No penalty, no disadvantage really. I've had the pleasure of grouping with folks that stick things out, and I've had the pleasure of having ragequitters in group. I say pleasure both ways as it's comical to me most times to have someone exclaim something they think is abrasive, and then run away before anyone can actually respond to them.

There are times though that things just aren't going to work. I wasn't there and have no idea what the situation was. I can site some examples though of when it's better to try it with another mix rather than have repeat wipes.

I don't think I'd ever support a system that would force you to continue to be somewhere you don't want to be in the game though. I'd rather reserve the right for anyone to leave for whatever the situation might be. It's inconvenient at times, but it happens...

I agree..if the party whips and everyone decides it best to quite that maybe their in over their head then it's legit. Unforgettably that was not the case. Everyone in my quest died when the floor fell out picking up a shard, apparently this was enough to **** off the leader so bad he/she left group. There should be a penalty.

Judo
04-12-2010, 10:30 AM
I agree..if the party whips and everyone decides it best to quite that maybe their in over their head then it's legit. Unforgettably that was not the case. Everyone in my quest died when the floor fell out picking up a shard, apparently this was enough to **** off the leader so bad he/she left group. There should be a penalty.

It just shows his lack of humor...i would have laughed my ass off and added to my noob kill count.

Tummada
04-12-2010, 10:31 AM
I think the only one who failed was the OP lol

My favorite excuse ever was a guildy who left a failing pug lowby group, with the best excuse ive ever heard...

"Sorry guys, I just cr*p*ed my pants, i have to go"

That should totally be one of the options.

And to the OP, thankfully, DDO is not a socialist republic, where your betters get penalized for your underachievements. :rolleyes:

If being a quitter makes you the winner then so be it, I'll take that loss.

dunklezhan
04-12-2010, 10:31 AM
I agree..if the party whips and everyone decides it best to quite that maybe their in over their head then it's legit. Unforgettably that was not the case. Everyone in my quest died when the floor fell out picking up a shard, apparently this was enough to **** off the leader so bad he/she left group. There should be a penalty.

Very well then - what exactly is your suggestion? You need to think about the following:

1. How will the game know the difference between a rage-quit and a 'we've decided to drop and regroup'-quit?
2. If this is to be some sort of player-voting system, how will griefing thus be prevented?
3. If this is to be some sort of automated system, how will griefing thus be prevented?
4. How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

Chai
04-12-2010, 10:37 AM
1. Having the star or putting the group together doesnt make someone a leader. It just means they invited everyone. Looking to that person alone for leadership is fail. I would have done the rest of the quest, then sent them a tell with the xp I just got lol.

2. Noobs is such a UO and EQ term. Its not 1999 anymore, and I dont see a Delorian with flaming tire tracks behind it outside in the parking lot. Jeez man up to artards and pileons already gawd!

3. The people that do the most talking and bragging, are usually the pileons who have no idea. If you are level 20, and have 275 hp and 50% fort, shaaaadaaap!!!

4. /ragequitting after a wipe is a biatch move. I prefer to /ragejoin and pike after the third blind invite from the same person. I usually play smooth jazz over the voice chat system while doing so. This holds alot more entertainment value than getting all emotionally charged, yelling, and quitting.

Lerincho
04-12-2010, 10:41 AM
I agree..if the party whips and everyone decides it best to quite that maybe their in over their head then it's legit. Unforgettably that was not the case. Everyone in my quest died when the floor fell out picking up a shard, apparently this was enough to **** off the leader so bad he/she left group. There should be a penalty.

drama much? so the party leader left, not like the quest was uncompletable at that point. would it have been any different had he just DC'd and never returned?

Xeraphim
04-12-2010, 10:44 AM
Apparently the Original Post is whining about people having none of these traits.

Generally, folks lose these traits when they start doing Epic for better gear.


As for abandoning the group, just remember the person's name and try to avoid them in the future. If it gets bad, and their name pops up on the LFM in a group, tell the person who has the star about your prior experience. I've seen groups actually drop these specific people thanks to a kind warning ahead of time.

Tummada
04-12-2010, 10:49 AM
I realize the you are upset regarding the event.

Yet promoting the expectation that people stick it out in a regular quest and burn their resources is a bit much. Sometimes quests fail. The logical thing to do is to find out why and do something about it. Raging at the person who quit when the party wiped, and anyone who finds reasons or scenarios where it's acceptable to do so is not the answer. I agree with you in that it sucks when that happens. Sometimes a failed save is all it takes to start a chain of deaths ending in complete party wipe. And the guy shouldn't have ranted as you say. But they had every right to drop if it seemed to them that the completion wouldn't happen without digging too far into consumable resources.

Ok so let's think about this..whole party is killed by a trap because the person picking up the shard failed his save and we were standing to close. We all die and leader rants and leaves group...hmmm...What he should have done was take the higher ground express to everyone that sometimes this happens and appoint specific people including the cleric to recall heal up come back in and raise the rest of the party and hopefully complete out..yes a little bump in the road but the right choice in my opinion. Quitting, unless agreed upon by the whole party should be shunned.

Chai
04-12-2010, 10:55 AM
I agree..if the party whips and everyone decides it best to quite that maybe their in over their head then it's legit. Unforgettably that was not the case. Everyone in my quest died when the floor fell out picking up a shard, apparently this was enough to **** off the leader so bad he/she left group. There should be a penalty.

I simply dont see why people get so emotionally charged when they see this type of thing. It usually has me rolling around on the floor laughing. Heck if I know it was your first run, I would have asked you to go get it as a hazing ritual.

The fact that the entire group wiped when picking that up tells me there was no communication, or the "leader" was just as much of a "noob" as everyone else. Everyone just stood around the shard when someone picked it up? Sounds like 6 first timers to me...Classic DnD "hey guys look at this treasure right in the middle of the floor with no danger around it" BLAM!!!! Indiana Jones style.

Its not hard to tell who is new when running the Crucible, because they usually dont even know how to get there. When FIVE PEOPLE dont know how to get there, or are confused on who to talk to in order to get the quest rolling, that is a major red flag style clue to your "leader" that they got some es'splainin ta dew...in order to complete the quest with a party of first timers.

dunklezhan
04-12-2010, 10:55 AM
Quitting, unless agreed upon by the whole party should be shunned.

Well, *disruptive* or *grief* quitting should be shunned, yes. But 'Shun' is a social term, not a technical one. Therefore you shun them by doing what all the other posters have said - black list the player, warn others about them etc. Not lobbying for a mechanics change that is arbitrary and would penalise plenty of people in similar but legitimate situations.

But I'm guessing from your posts so far that you're so caught up in your own anger that you aren't going to listen to anyone who disagrees with you however calmly or logically they approach your issue. Which is a shame.

Tummada
04-12-2010, 10:57 AM
drama much? so the party leader left, not like the quest was uncompletable at that point. would it have been any different had he just DC'd and never returned?

yes...DC could be for any # of reasons and would be easier to justify.

eonfreon
04-12-2010, 10:57 AM
Ok so let's think about this..whole party is killed by a trap because the person picking up the shard failed his save and we were standing to close. We all die and leader rants and leaves group...hmmm...What he should have done was take the higher ground express to everyone that sometimes this happens and appoint specific people including the cleric to recall heal up come back in and raise the rest of the party and hopefully complete out..yes a little bump in the road but the right choice in my opinion. Quitting, unless agreed upon by the whole party should be shunned.

So shun them.
To suggest the game be programmed to force people to stay together or face a penalty is a very bad idea.
That's the social aspect of the game, not the mechanics, and that's something that's just silly to try to police.
I appreciate that you've had a bad experience and are not thinking it through.
Really, I don't think this suggestion has the slightest legs so I am far more amused by this idea then worried that it'll ever be implemented.
This type of penalty will just make people even more selective of whom they allow into their groups.
Just not worth it.
How will forcing someone to stay really improve your odds of succeeding.
If he doesn't want to take the penalty or use his resources he'll just find a safe place to hide until the quest is completed or abandoned.
Not that it's needed but:
/Not Signed

Chai
04-12-2010, 11:00 AM
Ok so let's think about this..whole party is killed by a trap because the person picking up the shard failed his save and we were standing to close. We all die and leader rants and leaves group...hmmm...What he should have done was take the higher ground express to everyone that sometimes this happens and appoint specific people including the cleric to recall heal up come back in and raise the rest of the party and hopefully complete out..yes a little bump in the road but the right choice in my opinion. Quitting, unless agreed upon by the whole party should be shunned.


The person picking up the shard may or may not have failed their save. If they were standing onthe platform it would not have mattered if they disarmed the trap. The fact that the other 5 people were standing in the room when the shard was picked up tells me they didnt know what was going to happen - including your proclaimed "leader".

Or they failed their communication roll and wanted some entertainment at the expense of others. This would not cause them to become emotionally charged and /ragequit however....

Next time only send one person to get the item - preferably someone with rogue levels and evasion.

We also dont need to program another way for a-holes to grief people into the game. We already have a failed forum rep system.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-12-2010, 11:01 AM
drama much? so the party leader left, not like the quest was uncompletable at that point. would it have been any different had he just DC'd and never returned?

Kind of sounds like the rest of the group couldn't complete within the leader..which may tell you the leader was correct in their assessment.


Ok so let's think about this..whole party is killed by a trap because the person picking up the shard failed his save and we were standing to close.

Wait, I take it back, if none of them knew the floor fell out they were all noobs or newbs :p (love that trap first time through by the way)


We all die and leader rants and leaves group...hmmm...What he should have done was take the higher ground express to everyone that sometimes this happens and appoint specific people including the cleric to recall heal up come back in and raise the rest of the party and hopefully complete out..yes a little bump in the road but the right choice in my opinion. Quitting, unless
agreed upon by the whole party should be shunned.

What does the leader leaving have to do with anything? So they left. Why didn't the 5 of you continue as you suggest?

Frankly that early on in the quest it's not worth the HUGE XP penalities that get imposed, restart. Really, you expect a cleric to leave and come back in with a 40% penalty? - 20% rentry, -10% no persistance -10% for no flawless. It's just not worth it to lose that much when you are only 10min into a quest.

And if you want to "shun" them, don't run with them again. There, that was easy.

Hafeal
04-12-2010, 11:01 AM
I was Running crucible over the weekend on hard ...


...whole party is killed by a trap because the person picking up the shard failed his save and we were standing to close.

Ok, stop yourself, please. If you are running on Hard, Elite or Epic, please know your quest - if you don't know it, run on casual or normal. As for standing too close - uh, you should not be standing in the room other than the person getting the Shard. Sure, failed saves happen, on any setting. If you are running on Hard, this should be common knowledge to the group.

My guess is that the wipe was the last of a series of events which led the person to leave. We are only getting one side to the story here.

Piece of advice, just 'cause someone can open on Hard as a vet does not mean you should ... ;)

Lerincho
04-12-2010, 11:02 AM
Ok so let's think about this..whole party is killed by a trap because the person picking up the shard failed his save and we were standing to close. We all die and leader rants and leaves group..

No one took a second to think, maybe because of the location, whether you got a trap sense spot or not? I mean come on, if you do not walk into that section and immediately think "this is a great spot for a trap or ambush" then there is no helping.

.hmmm...What he should have done was take the higher ground express to everyone that sometimes this happens and appoint specific people including the cleric to recall heal up come back in and raise the rest of the party and hopefully complete out..yes a little bump in the road but the right choice in my opinion.

So you purpose, that instead of everyone recalls, and let the instant reset, you are not that far in, you want to go ahead and eliminate the other bonus you were going to get because of re-entry. On top of that, you want those "appointed" people to take an xp penalty for coming back into the quest? That is far of you how?

Quitting, unless agreed upon by the whole party should be shunned.

Do you pay his subscription fee? No? Then what gives you the right to dictate how he should act. Just as he has no right to dictate how you should behave. So by your logic, we should all ask if we can quit for the right, and only allowed if all the party agrees?

cwfergtx
04-12-2010, 11:02 AM
There can be numbers of different reasons a party wipes. But when the leader put the party togather it should be his job to ask who has or has not done the quest if it is not in his LFM. Then based on the response from the party member he should be explaining things. But at no time do I feel it is right to use foul language to your fellow players. We have wives, girllfriends, and daughters playing this game so please watch the language. How would you like it if someone used this foul language to your mother, wife or daughter? If it is a party of all noobies then it is considered a learning experience. But if the party leader does not put in the LFM that experience players only then it is his responsibility explain it for the noobies. As a person that has numerous clerics if it is not a quest I do often I will ask about it. And I personally hate after joining a party they state that they are zerging so keep up. If you get where I cannot heal you slow down. There is no in game way to penalize a person so just make a list of the jerks you don't want to run with again.

Lerincho
04-12-2010, 11:03 AM
yes...DC could be for any # of reasons and would be easier to justify.

ALT F4 shows as DCing.

Phidius
04-12-2010, 11:03 AM
No thanks.


...

But I'm guessing from your posts so far that you're so caught up in your own anger that you aren't going to listen to anyone who disagrees with you however calmly or logically they approach your issue. Which is a shame.

This

Tummada
04-12-2010, 11:04 AM
Well, *disruptive* or *grief* quitting should be shunned, yes. But 'Shun' is a social term, not a technical one. Therefore you shun them by doing what all the other posters have said - black list the player, warn others about them etc. Not lobbying for a mechanics change that is arbitrary and would penalise plenty of people in similar but legitimate situations.

But I'm guessing from your posts so far that you're so caught up in your own anger that you aren't going to listen to anyone who disagrees with you however calmly or logically they approach your issue. Which is a shame.


Would you feel better if I said "deter"? as in Turbine should deter poor sportsmanship by penalizing people who "rageout" and LEAVE group (not DC) mid quest....is that better?

To be honest I could careless. I have a level 20 cleric I'm use to it. I just like to bring up issues that I see in game here on the forums and debate it...

Lerincho
04-12-2010, 11:07 AM
I just like to bring up issues that I see in game here on the forums and debate it...

Except for the fact that this issue is not going to generate the sympathy you were hoping for. also, you stated that you could careless about what happened? so if you could careless, why even post?

Turbine should deter poor sportsmanship? Really? Only thing Turbine cares about is "what have you done for us lately?" As in, have you given us money?

Tendare
04-12-2010, 11:09 AM
Everyone just stood around the shard when someone picked it up? Sounds like 6 first timers to me...Classic DnD "hey guys look at this treasure right in the middle of the floor with no danger around it" BLAM!!!! Indiana Jones style.



Now this statement is hilarious. +1 rep for making me laugh at picturing this in my head.

Haven't had a kodak moment like this in a while?

I have to go, think I just peed myself.

Chai
04-12-2010, 11:10 AM
There can be numbers of different reasons a party wipes. But when the leader put the party togather it should be his job to ask who has or has not done the quest if it is not in his LFM. Then based on the response from the party member he should be explaining things. But at no time do I feel it is right to use foul language to your fellow players. We have wives, girllfriends, and daughters playing this game so please what the language. How would you like it if someone used this foul language to your mother, wife or daughter? If it is a party of all noobies then it is considered a learning experience. But if the party leader does not put in the LFM that experience players only then it is his responsibility explain it for the noobies. As a person that has numerous clerics if it is not a quest I do often I will ask about it. And I personally hate after joining a party they state that they are zerging so keep up. If you get where I cannot heal you slow down. There is no in game way to penalize a person so just make a list of the jerks you don't want to run with again.

Having the star =/= leader. It just means they invited everyone.

The fact that all 6 of them were in the room when the trap went off tells me its 6 first timers. How do you expect a pileon to lead other pileons through a quest? No responsibility falls on anyones shoulders more than any other just because they have the asterisk next to their name.

You can also make a list of jerks who decided to turn up the effingheimer when your wife / daughter was in the room....

The penalty for being a jerk is each time it happens the group pool gets smaller and smaller for you. Believe it or not I have seen a few people on our server who will join raids and half the people will leave because they will not group with a specific person. It does get that bad for repeat offenders, eventually.

Memnir
04-12-2010, 11:11 AM
You want to penalize them - make and maintain a blacklist of players and guilds whom you find to be disagreeable. Spread the word, in a manner that does not violate the EULA or COde of Conduct, and news of their actions will spread.

You have a Friends List - put them on it, and make a note of why you put them there. Hell, 75% or more of my Friends List is filled with anything but pals - but rather people I never want to group with again.


How would you propose the mechanics of your idea work? How would the game understand that a person left the group for anything other than a legit reason? And, if this were to be peer moderated - how could you guarantee that this would not be abused, because without such up-front guarantees... it would be. Please be specific in terms other than, "Please Turbine, make the bad man stop."

With your system, as proposed, in place - I'd just pass the star to some other schmuck before bailing, and stick them with the penalty. And that is pretty much the opposite of what you intend. And yet... that is what would happen every time if your proposal were to be enacted. Thus, your proposal is an utter waste of time.

Look, Turbine is not a social worker - nor is the game set up to be one either. If you have a problem with how a group leader handles the job - it's up to you to handle the situation.


I get it. Your frustrated. So man up, and deal with it yourself and stop looking to other people to resolve your grievance. Either lead your own groups, maintain your 'Friends' list to keep track of people you don't want to group with... whatever. But, your proposal is not worth the digital media it's printed on. This kind of tantrum is unseemly - and frankly about on par maturity-wise as the guy who bailed on you.

Lagin
04-12-2010, 11:15 AM
And of course, 100% of new players are NEW. That is something a lot of us vets seem to forget sometimes, is that new players are new. It may appear like rudeness, or bad habits, and I do agree with you ferd that those players definitly exsist, but for more then 1/2 of the new players that have joined in the past 3-5 months, they are simply just NEW.

I think some above have stated just like others have on similar threads, Rule #1 to avoid bad leaders is: BE THE LEADER AND START YOUR OWN GROUP.
/signed

scampb
04-12-2010, 11:19 AM
This rant/suggestion is not intended for those leaders who stick with THEIR group even when the going gets tough, even when the party whips, even when the group is full of noobs and the out look is bleak!! This message is intended for those so called LEADERS who when the going gets tough they are the first to throw out an insult to the rest of the group and leave the party!!! These so called leaders in my opinion SUCK the big one and should be penalized!!!

I was Running crucible over the weekend on hard, we had a party wipe while navigating through the maze, the leader yells out "this party is full of noobs" then LEAVES group!?!...***...

I remember when I first started playing this game, when a party would wipe players were more willing to stick through it...everyone would recall except 1 and come back in with renown determination to complete the quest...where are those people? COME BACK!!!

So here is my suggestion; Once a party enters a quest if a party member LEAVES group because things are going south then that toon who left should be penalized next time they log on weather by XP penalty or some other means. What do you think?

Hmmm, could you really call this guy a 'leader'. Probably not. If he was 'leader' and put PUG together without asking pertinent questions and finding out how much knowledge of quest was out there than it was all his fault anyway. Did he give instructions to party members? Probably not. He was not a 'leader'. But for your solution, nah, won't work. Just don't PUG with that so called 'leader' again.

dunklezhan
04-12-2010, 11:21 AM
Would you feel better if I said "deter"? as in Turbine should deter poor sportsmanship by penalizing people who "rageout" and LEAVE group (not DC) mid quest....is that better?

Yes.


To be honest I could careless. >snip<

Fair enough. I'll stop bothering with this thread then, as I'm sure you will since you could care less.

Excellent news.

JayDubya
04-12-2010, 11:21 AM
These are the things that will make me give up on a PuG i organized:

1) Not admitting to noobness - I can't help you if you won't admit you don't know the quest.
2) Not listening - I can't help you if you won't listen to what I'm saying
3) Not cooperating - deliberately defying my requests/orders, in a way that makes it harder for everyone else.

If you can follow those instructions, I'll be very patient - most any fight can be beaten with good tactics instead of good weapons, but most of those fights involve listening and cooperating. In fact, in a lot of cases, I prefer good tactics to good weapons, since the result is more intellectually challenging.

But I will not be held hostage to people who can't or won't cooperate, listen, and admit to inexperience. And there's no reason anyone else should either.

Chai
04-12-2010, 11:24 AM
There is no way for Turbine to police the actions of others and determine they should get a penalty, without it becoming the new /autogrief button.

There are, however, ways to make sure that you never have to group with people who do this type of thing ever again.

Lorz
04-12-2010, 11:27 AM
To OP...your solution does not work because you will end up penalizing those who do not deserve it.

There is already a system in for this...it is called DO NOT GROUP WITH THAT PERSON AGAIN.
This is the ultimate penalty. Sure it may not be much penalty for some...but then again....it will be great for others.

But your idea is just not workable....basically people would just quit LFMing and then you would not get to run anything. I understand your frustration...A lot of my toons have in their bio's a simple line....

"Never give up"

I have occasionally put up super-human efforts to save a party/group. I tend to hate failures...but there is a limit...when you cross it...im gone....I dont need your group to complete anything for me. I can solo most things and if need be...have a very good guild i can count on.
What you need to do is add that leader to your special persons list....then move on. Sounds like to me with the leader gone....you could enjoy the quest...but if you didnt just 5 man it...then your party was doomed before you ever began....and that is the harsh reality you must face....

Also dont start with "the people used to just stick through it"....nope back in XP debt days that kinda **** got you on a list of a dark color and no one wanted to run with ya...cause XP debt made death have a real penalty unlike now ... where it is a joke...


Funny how the good old days...arent always so grand when really recalled properly.

krud
04-12-2010, 11:29 AM
What kind of penalty can we give the bonehead who caused the wipe? :p

maybe turbine could add a tradeable "dunce" cap to the skinnable headgear options.

Chai
04-12-2010, 11:29 AM
These are the things that will make me give up on a PuG i organized:

1) Not admitting to noobness - I can't help you if you won't admit you don't know the quest.
2) Not listening - I can't help you if you won't listen to what I'm saying
3) Not cooperating - deliberately defying my requests/orders, in a way that makes it harder for everyone else.

If you can follow those instructions, I'll be very patient - most any fight can be beaten with good tactics instead of good weapons, but most of those fights involve listening and cooperating. In fact, in a lot of cases, I prefer good tactics to good weapons, since the result is more intellectually challenging.

1) Not admitting to noobness - I can't help you if you won't admit you don't know the quest.

Chaotic Neutral for the win - I can help those who express the desire to help themselves.


But I will not be held hostage to people who can't or won't cooperate, listen, and admit to inexperience. And there's no reason anyone else should either.

But if you dont I will mash the autogrief button like I am trying to build up speed in Track and FieldĀ® which will continually penalize your xp until you carry my pileon @$$ through the dungeon.

sigtrent
04-12-2010, 11:30 AM
Having the star =/= leader. It just means they invited everyone.

The fact that all 6 of them were in the room when the trap went off tells me its 6 first timers. How do you expect a pileon to lead other pileons through a quest? No responsibility falls on anyones shoulders more than any other just because they have the asterisk next to their name.

I disagree. I think when you have the star you take a certain amount of responsibility for the group you form, at least for the duration of a given quest. Its one of the reasons I hesitate before starting a group and why many people never start groups.

When I have the star in a group I make sure that folks get the quest done. I would only leave if the players were clearly intentionally fouling up the quest. I also would not start a group that I didn't think could complete the quest. Crucible can be a real challenge for an inexperienced group but a good leader should be able to get them through it. If you know the quest you should be able to easily instruct people on what they need to do. You should know an inexperienced group may take a while to get through it, it has lots of ways to kill you. Its good training for the harder quests in the game.

I agree with the OP in principle but his remedy will not work and is not a good idea. You can't require people to be responsible in a game. Their reputation is what ultimately enforces good behavior. Bad reps get around. Each server has its annals of legendarily bad players as well as its legendarily good ones.

I understand some folks play the game to farm loot, to get bigger characters so that everything is easy, but I don't much respect them. I respect the folks most who like a challenge and overcome through smarts and persistence. Who find a group of newbies to be a challenge to overcome and not a challenge to flee from.

Ive also found that when people "rage quit" because "this party is a bunch of newbs!" those that stay in the group after a few new players are added usually complete the quest. This tends to tell me that the folks that bail with shouts of newbieness are often the ones enabling the failure. I presume it is because they are used to riding on the coat-tails of very good players with very powerful characters and can't actually pull their own weight, they only think they can because its all very easy when others are playing at the top of their game. When they have to carry the water themselves, they break and then they blame it on everyone else.

If I am leading a quest, barring real life things I must deal with, we will complete the quest or we will find a quest we can complete.

Tummada
04-12-2010, 11:32 AM
To OP...your solution does not work because you will end up penalizing those who do not deserve it.

There is already a system in for this...it is called DO NOT GROUP WITH THAT PERSON AGAIN.
This is the ultimate penalty. Sure it may not be much penalty for some...but then again....it will be great for others.

But your idea is just not workable....basically people would just quit LFMing and then you would not get to run anything. I understand your frustration...A lot of my toons have in their bio's a simple line....

"Never give up"

I have occasionally put up super-human efforts to save a party/group. I tend to hate failures...but there is a limit...when you cross it...im gone....I dont need your group to complete anything for me. I can solo most things and if need be...have a very good guild i can count on.
What you need to do is add that leader to your special persons list....then move on. Sounds like to me with the leader gone....you could enjoy the quest...but if you didnt just 5 man it...then your party was doomed before you ever began....and that is the harsh reality you must face....

Also dont start with "the people used to just stick through it"....nope back in XP debt days that kinda **** got you on a list of a dark color and no one wanted to run with ya...cause XP debt made death have a real penalty unlike now ... where it is a joke...


Funny how the good old days...arent always so grand when really recalled properly .

I joined just as the xp penalty was being abolished.

Tummada
04-12-2010, 11:39 AM
Except for the fact that this issue is not going to generate the sympathy you were hoping for. also, you stated that you could careless about what happened? so if you could careless, why even post?

Turbine should deter poor sportsmanship? Really? Only thing Turbine cares about is "what have you done for us lately?" As in, have you given us money?

Why? Because it's a valid issue that needs some attention. Just bringing it to light may be enough to curb some peoples negative behavior in game...one can only hope!

Lerincho
04-12-2010, 11:44 AM
Why? Because it's a valid issue that needs some attention. Just bringing it to light may be enough to curb some peoples negative behavior in game...one can only hope!

How is it going to curb the negative behavior by bring it to the forums? Only about 20% of the players of DDO actually read the forums, and without the ability to call out specific people (against CoC) the individual goes on doing what they see fit as THEIR enjoyment for THEIR gaming time.

If YOU want to be different, than be different. You, nor I, nor Borror have any right to force our beliefs on anyone else. Whether you like that thought or not, does not matter, because you, nor Turbine have the right (as long as individual is adhering to the EULA) to alter behavior of anyone.

Until you start paying other people's subscription, you have no right to tell others how they "should" be playing.

You can deal in hope, I will deal with reality of the fact that no one will ever live to your expectations. So accept or reject everyone on their own merits, instead of pigeon-holing people into certain behaviors.

Chai
04-12-2010, 11:50 AM
I disagree. I think when you have the star you take a certain amount of responsibility for the group you form, at least for the duration of a given quest. Its one of the reasons I hesitate before starting a group and why many people never start groups.


I am sorry, but having that little star next to your name does not obligate you to anything else than any other party member is or is not obligated to.

Communication is everyones job, and not the job of the "leader" to make sure everyone else is communicating. Even if what you say is true, leader still =/= babysitter. There is a different between being a new player but being competent and skilled enough in playing and communication, vs say, being a complete pileon who doesnt talk, doesnt listen, dies, and then wants to mash the xp penalty button to hold the situation hostage and make you carry them through the quest. ROFL no thanks. This is all moot because....

.....In this example, 6 people all stood there while one of them picked up the item. They all died. This tells me that even if the person was trying to be the leader with the star as you outline, he or she didnt know any more or less about the quest than anyone else did. The fact that they cried noob and left would earn them a spot on the tard list for sure. They would not have been able to "lead" if they tried.

They could have put the group together and asked for a guide, but this means admitting to not knowing whats up ahead, which seems to be the hardest thing to get first timers to do.

Tummada
04-12-2010, 11:55 AM
How is it going to curb the negative behavior by bring it to the forums? Only about 20% of the players of DDO actually read the forums, and without the ability to call out specific people (against CoC) the individual goes on doing what they see fit as THEIR enjoyment for THEIR gaming time.

If YOU want to be different, than be different. You, nor I, nor Borror have any right to force our beliefs on anyone else. Whether you like that thought or not, does not matter, because you, nor Turbine have the right (as long as individual is adhering to the EULA) to alter behavior of anyone.

Until you start paying other people's subscription, you have no right to tell others how they "should" be playing.

You can deal in hope, I will deal with reality of the fact that no one will ever live to your expectations. So accept or reject everyone on their own merits, instead of pigeon-holing people into certain behaviors.

I disagree, when i run solo it's My game time and My enjoyment but when I'm part of a group it's OUR game time and OUR enjoyment. why, Because i have an OBLIGATION to the OTHER people in group and that OBLIGATION goes beyond my OWN SELFISH needs or preconceived expectations! And yes sometimes it means putting up w/people who are noobs especially when your the leader running a pug group.

Chai
04-12-2010, 11:56 AM
Now this statement is hilarious. +1 rep for making me laugh at picturing this in my head.

Haven't had a kodak moment like this in a while?

I have to go, think I just peed myself.

Yeah, I almost wish I could have been there / been the person who grabbed the horn and substituted a ball wraped in cloth for it hoping nothing would go wrong....

Tummada
04-12-2010, 11:58 AM
Having the star =/= leader. It just means they invited everyone.

The fact that all 6 of them were in the room when the trap went off tells me its 6 first timers. How do you expect a pileon to lead other pileons through a quest? No responsibility falls on anyones shoulders more than any other just because they have the asterisk next to their name.

You can also make a list of jerks who decided to turn up the effingheimer when your wife / daughter was in the room....

The penalty for being a jerk is each time it happens the group pool gets smaller and smaller for you. Believe it or not I have seen a few people on our server who will join raids and half the people will leave because they will not group with a specific person. It does get that bad for repeat offenders, eventually.

Having the star/leader means more then just "well I only invite"...If your the leader and your LFM does not state "looking for a guide" then those joining look to you as the guide!

Chai
04-12-2010, 11:59 AM
I disagree, when i run solo it's My game time and My enjoyment but when I'm part of a group it's OUR game time and OUR enjoyment. why, Because i have an OBLIGATION to the OTHER people in group and that OBLIGATION goes beyond my OWN SELFISH needs or preconceived expectations! And yes sometimes it means putting up w/people who are noobs especially when your the leader running a pug group.

Sure, and in your explanation, the rest of the group members in your group have an obligation to not be complete pileons, admit they dont know something (this seems to be the tough one), not get emotionally charged, and not want to add an autogrief button they can mash to penalize your xp until you agree to lead them through the module and do all the heavy lifting simply because you agreed to join.

Kepli_Moonshadow
04-12-2010, 11:59 AM
Add them to your friends list, with a little note- DO NOT RUN WITH

That way the devs can keep working on Shroud lag FTW

I heart ddo :D

Lerincho
04-12-2010, 12:01 PM
I disagree, when i run solo it's My game time and My enjoyment but when I'm part of a group it's OUR game time and OUR enjoyment. why, Because i have an OBLIGATION to the OTHER people in group and that OBLIGATION goes beyond my OWN SELFISH needs or preconceived expectations! And yes sometimes it means putting up w/people who are noobs especially when your the leader running a pug group.

we will have to agree to disagree.

here is bottom line for you:

It is a video game

and finally:

your suggestion of a penalty to party leaders would absolutely be a waste of developer time.

Quikster
04-12-2010, 12:03 PM
Having the star/leader means more then just "well I only invite"...If your the leader and your LFM does not state "looking for a guide" then those joining look to you as the guide!

They may look at the person with the star as a guide, but that certainly doesnt mean he is one. Try doing what everyone else does, take note of that person and move on. No reason to add a method of griefing people, just avoid them. Its pretty simple really.

DoctorWhofan
04-12-2010, 12:05 PM
This rant/suggestion is not intended for those leaders who stick with THEIR group even when the going gets tough, even when the party whips, even when the group is full of noobs and the out look is bleak!! This message is intended for those so called LEADERS who when the going gets tough they are the first to throw out an insult to the rest of the group and leave the party!!! These so called leaders in my opinion SUCK the big one and should be penalized!!!

I was Running crucible over the weekend on hard, we had a party wipe while navigating through the maze, the leader yells out "this party is full of noobs" then LEAVES group!?!...***...

I remember when I first started playing this game, when a party would wipe players were more willing to stick through it...everyone would recall except 1 and come back in with renown determination to complete the quest...where are those people? COME BACK!!!

So here is my suggestion; Once a party enters a quest if a party member LEAVES group because things are going south then that toon who left should be penalized next time they log on weather by XP penalty or some other means. What do you think?

It's Mcgyverism. Alot of "leaders" don't have that ability. Unless there is no hope at all, one should never give up. As a leader of a party, you use the tools you have. It is a rare gift you are asking people to have. But I agree with you, and my guild is founded under those criteria.

Tummada
04-12-2010, 12:11 PM
Sure, and in your explanation, the rest of the group members in your group have an obligation to not be complete pileons, admit they dont know something (this seems to be the tough one), not get emotionally charged, and not want to add an autogrief button they can mash to penalize your xp until you agree to lead them through the module and do all the heavy lifting simply because you agreed to join.


a pile-on..huh.. so now everyone needs to know a quest before running it? Hell i take new people through "running with devils" all the time do I care if their a pile-on or not, no! I don't hold it against them or use it as a reason to drop group just because they are and didn't let me know ahead of time. As long as one person knows the quest and can provide good leadership/direction is fine...well unless that one person happens to rage-out mid quest because things aren't going as planned and leaves group because his wittle feelings got hurt....so he should get an xp penalty...

LunaCee
04-12-2010, 12:30 PM
The moment the XP griefing option is put in I'm going to stop pugging ENTIRELY and only guild group. If you have an issue with a specific player simply add them to your friend list and add the little note.

DNG - (Reason not to group)

Done! Hey presto you can avoid said player from that point on. But the **** am I going to be held hostage by n00bs (read that is actually different than newbs) whose only purpose is to pike and grief so they can have an "uber" character by ruining the fun for everyone else.

If it does get in I can only ask for the XP Revenge button. So I can madly mash it every time somebody dies costing the party that 10% bonus XP. That is about on par with the penalty you are asking for. A tool with which to grief other players. That is ALL it will be used as the majority of the time.

Delt
04-12-2010, 12:32 PM
People dropping group sucks. Especially in a chain series. For a noob. I remember when that used to happen when I first started the game. Your time is wasted. You don't have the ability to solo it, carry 5 others through it or lead it. Yup yup, been there, done that.

Sucks to be a noob.

Solution isn't an xp loss for people who drop. The solution is to make liberal use of your friends list and to strive to stop being a noob.

PS - as a funny aside, I have someone on my..."friends" list with a similar name. You wouldn't happen to play on Thelanis, do you?

Lorien_the_First_One
04-12-2010, 12:38 PM
Having the star/leader means more then just "well I only invite"...If your the leader and your LFM does not state "looking for a guide" then those joining look to you as the guide!

No, the star means that I'm the guy who got the party going. I've lead groups with the star and without the star. Unless my LFM says "looking for people to guide" then people shouldn't expect me to be a tour guide, they should expect that they will be joining me as partners in completing a quest.

I can see why you were disappointed if you wanted a babysitter to lead you.

Tymoriel_Ayreweaver
04-12-2010, 12:45 PM
The notion that Turbine should create a process where by an individual is penalized for leaving a group midquest is completely rediculous. Forcing people to stay grouped regardless of the situation or take a penalty for leaving will give way to two likely out comes:

1. You will see far fewer pugs started by those who are in guilds. This is already the case for many in this game.. why run with strangers if you can run with friends. Who will want to take a chance that your group is awful if you can't leave without taking an xp hit.

2. Turbine starts forcing people to group together and stay in groups together... people will take their ball and go home. Some of us are already aggrivated at the lack of quality content and the neglecting of significant issues in favor of fluff. Something like this is sure to irritate as much as (if not more than) Dungeon Alert.

Murderface
04-12-2010, 12:48 PM
i dont usually but if im not leader im more likely to leave a poorly lead group.

Loki
04-12-2010, 01:31 PM
<snip>

Just because someone does not know a quest and may hinder progress does not give anyone the right to leave group.
Turbine gave me that right via the Recall and Leave Party functions.


It's not only a waist of your time not to complete the quest but your also wasting other peoples time by leaving!!
It's a waste of my time to complete a 20-30 minute quest in 60, 90, or 180 minutes. To paraphrase:

I swear, by my DDO play-time and my love of it, that I will never play for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to play for me.

DragonDrago77
04-12-2010, 01:35 PM
People have only so much patience.

You can't expect every leader to be patient, hard-working and stick with his group.

People play DDO to have fun, not to babysit a bunch of kids.

If people are new, listening and ready to learn- then you can get mad at the leader for leaving. But if people are being annoying, obnoxious and they are not listening-I would leave if I was the leader in this case.

And you can't punish people for not wanting to stick with their group.
Would you put a man in jail because he quit his job?No.

As well I noticed the topic starter said that in a party that "it's our experience." It's not "our experience."
It's my experience. I don't feel other people's emotions and feelings.

/notsigned.

Lerincho
04-12-2010, 01:38 PM
I swear, by my DDO play-time and my love of it, that I will never play for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to play for me.

/Ditto

krud
04-12-2010, 04:47 PM
No, the star means that I'm the guy who got the party going. I've lead groups with the star and without the star. Unless my LFM says "looking for people to guide" then people shouldn't expect me to be a tour guide, they should expect that they will be joining me as partners in completing a quest.

I can see why you were disappointed if you wanted a babysitter to lead you.
/agreed

I never look at the person with the star as the leader/guide, unless he indicates it, or takes charge in voice/party chat.

Pyromaniac
04-12-2010, 06:04 PM
I'm adding another /not signed.

Sometimes the group is just so bad, you have to throw in the towel. I personally try to stick things out as much as possible - but sometimes its just too much.

There are too many current players in DDO that come unprepared, expect too much and don't contribute to the success of the party.

If a player has a habit of dropping group for poor reasons, they get a reputation for it. Then they don't get accepted into groups as a result. Self-policing is the best policy.

Samadhi
04-12-2010, 06:21 PM
Nobody picked the sarchasm in my post? the point is that there is no way to know why someone is leaving, other than asking, and nobody would answer truthfully if that means a penalty...

I thought it was pretty obvious :D

Hambo
04-12-2010, 07:09 PM
When you hit recall, there should pop a question "why are you leaving the quest? check one"

- Your party is full of noobs and there is no hope of completion
- You have some unexpected rl issue
- You are just farming and dont want the completion
- You are dead and need to recall to resurrect and come back
- You just opened the instance for some friends, never planned to run the quest

If the person answers the first option, then they get a xp penalty!


nope. can you not see why this would be horrible to implement? No one would answer honestly to anything that causes a penalty.

Fixed that for ya. :D

Waukeen
04-12-2010, 07:38 PM
Just because someone does not know a quest and may hinder progress does not give anyone the right to leave group. It's not only a waist of your time not to complete the quest but your also wasting other peoples time by leaving!!

I have the right to leave.

If its my raid, and there is no chance to salvage it without massive amounts of resources, it is my right to call it.

If it is someone else's raid, I will not leave unless they are unresponsive and not leading.

If I am in a PuG quest (not epic) run. I have the right to leave for any reason I see fit... RL, spite, cigarette, coffee, girlfriend, guild, friends, lfm, whatever... if they dislike the reason I give then add me to a list.

Quests are easy to inprogress-fill, shortman, or redo quickly.

Hambo
04-12-2010, 07:38 PM
Except for the fact that this issue is not going to generate the sympathy you were hoping for. also, you stated that you could careless about what happened? so if you could careless, why even post?

Turbine should deter poor sportsmanship? Really? Only thing Turbine cares about is "what have you done for us lately?" As in, have you given us money?

If they did this the forums wouldn't be a fun place anymore, would it? :D

Phidius
04-12-2010, 07:42 PM
...Would you put a man in jail because he quit his job?...

Only after he had the man publicly flogged first, methinks.

Chillie
04-19-2010, 08:02 PM
This rant/suggestion is not intended for those leaders who stick with THEIR group even when the going gets tough, even when the party whips, even when the group is full of noobs and the out look is bleak!! This message is intended for those so called LEADERS who when the going gets tough they are the first to throw out an insult to the rest of the group and leave the party!!! These so called leaders in my opinion SUCK the big one and should be penalized!!!

I was Running crucible over the weekend on hard, we had a party wipe while navigating through the maze, the leader yells out "this party is full of noobs" then LEAVES group!?!...***...

I remember when I first started playing this game, when a party would wipe players were more willing to stick through it...everyone would recall except 1 and come back in with renown determination to complete the quest...where are those people? COME BACK!!!

So here is my suggestion; Once a party enters a quest if a party member LEAVES group because things are going south then that toon who left should be penalized next time they log on weather by XP penalty or some other means. What do you think?

I hear ya, first off i do want to point out I am a guild leader but that is irrelevant to this post. I would LOVE to know the answer to that question my self I get sick and plain tired of that. It's like what happened to players doing this **** everyone has turned into wimps and those that does do the EPIC quests just about always belittles the ones that has never played the EPIC quests. I'm not directing my opinion to anyone or any one player out there it is about RESPECT isn't that right, yes?

Chillie
04-19-2010, 08:22 PM
No wonder the DDOU dev's doesn't listen to 95% of the people on this forum why would they with so many here that has so much to say and really just competes with each others reply. Hell if i worked for Turbine i would never take the time to read every post in here just to help the gamers game better and fix all the bugs we complaine so much about.

I know this post has NOTHING to do with this thread but my god people you sure love to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk oh oh and a lot more talking.

Judo
04-19-2010, 08:31 PM
No wonder the DDOU dev's doesn't listen to 95% of the people on this forum why would they with so many here that has so much to say and really just competes with each others reply. Hell if i worked for Turbine i would never take the time to read every post in here just to help the gamers game better and fix all the bugs we complaine so much about.

I know this post has NOTHING to do with this thread but my god people you sure love to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk oh oh and a lot more talking.

Thanks for the filler, Pot McKettleson.

Pyromaniac
04-20-2010, 07:10 AM
those that does do the EPIC quests just about always belittles the ones that has never played the EPIC quests. I'm not directing my opinion to anyone or any one player out there it is about RESPECT isn't that right, yes?

Change of topic, but those 'that does do' the epic quests are tired of the lack of respect from those who do not come prepared for epic, hit the LFM, then spam nasty tells when they are not accepted and told why. Respect goes both ways.

Daggaz
04-20-2010, 07:14 AM
/signed. But only if they give me a sixth backpack slot for all the soulstones Im gonna pack around. =D

Morningfrost
04-20-2010, 07:29 AM
If you want a penalty or wiping, just ask what happen when a character used to die in a quest.

Ok, what happened? I often read about XP penalty but I don't know how it was. Nowadays, you loose the XP bonus, so there is still one form of group penalty, isn't it?

MorningStarSE
04-20-2010, 10:50 AM
This rant/suggestion is not intended for those leaders who stick with THEIR group even when the going gets tough, even when the party whips, even when the group is full of noobs and the out look is bleak!! This message is intended for those so called LEADERS who when the going gets tough they are the first to throw out an insult to the rest of the group and leave the party!!! These so called leaders in my opinion SUCK the big one and should be penalized!!!

I was Running crucible over the weekend on hard, we had a party wipe while navigating through the maze, the leader yells out "this party is full of noobs" then LEAVES group!?!...***...

I remember when I first started playing this game, when a party would wipe players were more willing to stick through it...everyone would recall except 1 and come back in with renown determination to complete the quest...where are those people? COME BACK!!!

So here is my suggestion; Once a party enters a quest if a party member LEAVES group because things are going south then that toon who left should be penalized next time they log on weather by XP penalty or some other means. What do you think?


No - There are good leader, bad leader, but there are also bad player and good player. Penalizing freedom is silly. And on a social level, there are 5 guy that will never play with him again, so he's penalizing himself in the long run.

Though if you still play with that guy.. the problem is elsewhere..

Ashurr
04-20-2010, 06:08 PM
I may be the most patient player in the world ( I regularly start Guild groups and PUG's expressly for pikers) But sometimes, peeps are just plain not worth running with. Accept that you may be one of these undesirables and move on.