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View Full Version : Adding the Opportunist ability to DDO Rogues



Angelus_dead
04-09-2010, 01:24 PM
Problems
1. The D&D 3.5e Player's Handbook includes Opportunist as a selectable class feature for Rogues, but DDO doesn't have it.

2. Rogues are lacking in attractive special abilities. Crippling Strike and Improved Evasion are pretty cool, but after that the others are "Eh whatever, better than nothing". In fact, it has become rather common for experts to suggest that players drop the Rogue class after level 13 because that's when you've got both good ability choices.

3. Rogues lack a bit of combat power compared to other melee classes at the high levels. Nearly every other melee class has an ability for a long-lasting increase to attack speed: Tempest I, Tempest III, Zeal, Fighter Capstone, Wind Stance, or Unarmed Strike. (Barbarians don't have a speed boost either, but they do have a crit mult bonus which is similar in some ways). Increased speed is important when monsters are being defeated by means other than hitpoint damage, like Vorpal or Weighted.

4. It is thematically odd that a Rogue is not as consistently "quick" at fighting as say a Paladin or 8-dex Tempest with dual Waraxes.

Note
The D&D rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#specialAbilities) for Opportunist is:
Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

Suggestions
1. Add a special ability choice for Rogues with this description:
"Opportunist- When making an attack against an opponent who most recently has been damaged by someone other than you, you have an X% chance to make an instant additional attack"

2. Let's say X% is 10% as an example, as that is a typical number used in speed boosts for other classes. The actual number can be chosen to be whatever gives Rogues a decent boost in effectiveness.

3. How it would be implemented is that each monster's data includes the id of the last creature to damage it. Whenever a Rogue with Opportunist gets an attack against a creature, the server checks if that recent-damager-id is different from the Rogue, and if so rolls the 10% chance. On a success then a bonus attack is processed before the main one. (Being careful to avoid infinite recursion)

4. This feature would uphold the traditional Rogue role of being better as a team combatant, as it only works well if another character is consistently damaging the same enemy.

5. Unlike most Rogue combat benefits, this works equally well against Undead, Constructs, and other things immune to Sneak Attack. Thus the Rogue is a little better at functioning in other themes of content, but in the same group composition as always.

6. Note that this suggestion gives a larger benefit to SWF characters than TWF ones. Assuming other players are attacking frequently, a Rogue with a single weapon could expect to get a net +10% attack rate. But a TWF character will already be making two attacks simultaneously, so his offhand attack will never qualify for "most recently damaged by someone else" (unless his mainhand attack missed, which will be uncommon). It could be considered beneficial that non-TWF Rogues gain more from the feature.

Variations
7. Instead of a percentage chance, the extra attack could be limited in some other way, such as once per 3 seconds or once per attack combo chain. The latter would be closer to the exact D&D rule.

8. A minor change which adds a lot of programming complexity and makes the ability more useful when your teammates are weak (such as a hireling) would be to activate the Opportunist opportunity whenever someone besides you damages the monster, and let it last until it triggers. (That's a bit too hard to explain though)

9. Some Rogue players might prefer a feature they can toggle off to avoid sometimes pulling aggro too fast, but that is quite unimportant.

10. If desired, the ability could be made more powerful for TWFs by making it grant two extra attacks if it triggers on an animation which includes two attacks anyhow. (That means check the conditional for it to trigger at an earlier point in the processing). However, one could simply declare that non-TWF Rogues are permitted to gain more from Opportunist because they were already worse off in general.

11. If it were desired to encourage use of some less-powerful weapons, a bonus to the trigger chance could be given to certain types. Maybe +1% for finesseable, another +1% for light, and +1% more for dagger.

Borror0
04-09-2010, 06:47 PM
2. Rogues are lacking in attractive special abilities. Crippling Strike and Improved Evasion are pretty cool, but after that the others are "Eh whatever, better than nothing". In fact, it has become rather common for experts to suggest that players drop the Rogue class after level 13 because that's when you've got both good ability choices.
Another suggestion to address problem this would be to allow to pick a bonus feat at 10, 13, 16 or 19, as per PnP rules.

LazarusPossum
04-09-2010, 08:27 PM
Sounds good to me. Being a rogue, I'll spring at any opportunity. ;)

Artos_Fabril
04-09-2010, 08:32 PM
Suggestions3. How it would be implemented is that each monster's data includes the id of the last creature to damage it. Whenever a Rogue with Opportunist gets an attack against a creature, the server checks if that recent-damager-id is different from the Rogue, and if so rolls the 10% chance. On a success then a bonus attack is processed before the main one. (Being careful to avoid infinite recursion)
While I like this idea in general, I think requiring more client-server time-sensitive communication is a bad idea until the standing lag issues are resolved.

7. Instead of a percentage chance, the extra attack could be limited in some other way, such as once per 3 seconds or once per attack combo chain. The latter would be closer to the exact D&D rule.This would seem a much easier implementation as you no longer have to track who the last person to damage the mob was, only that it received damage from another source since the last time the ability was cooled down. It would have to be a passive ability though, or it becomes as useless as cleave, if not more so.

Angelus_dead
04-09-2010, 08:40 PM
While I like this idea in general, I think requiring more client-server time-sensitive communication is a bad idea
This suggestion doesn't involve additional time-sensitive client-server communication. Everything is handled strictly on the server, aside from informing the client of the damage resulting from the extra attack. Whether that message is timely or not is unimportant.

The only way it could increase lag is in the sense that giving Rogues use of the Fighter cpastone would also increase lag. There is truth to that, but it is very unfair to say that some classes get to have such features and some don't.


This would seem a much easier implementation as you no longer have to track who the last person to damage the mob was, only that it received damage from another source since the last time the ability was cooled down.
That variation is identical to the first suggestion in terms of how much data must be retained about when creatures are damaged. It does require an insignificant amount of extra data regarding if the Opportunistic attack is still on cooldown or not.

As the old programmers say: Premature optimization is the root of all evil.

Coldin
05-29-2010, 02:27 PM
Thread necro!

Since Borror linked this thread, might as well bring it back.

With double strike looking like a for sure thing coming, Opportunist could be a feat that gives 10% chance to double strike. If they want to make it more restrictive, perhaps the rogue only gets that chance when he doesn't have aggro.

Angelus_dead
05-29-2010, 02:30 PM
Yes, this Opportunist suggestion has a great similarity to the new Doublestrike feature.


If they want to make it more restrictive, perhaps the rogue only gets that chance when he doesn't have aggro.
Or if you want to obey the D&D rule more closely (and make the feat a little stronger), it only works when the rogue was not the last person to damage that enemy.

For the server to have each enemy keep track of the ID number for the last source of damage should be a negligible extra workload, and it would mean that the Rogue still gets the bonus in situations where he has primary aggro, so long as some other player is also attacking.

Coldin
05-29-2010, 02:36 PM
Yes, this Opportunist suggestion has a great similarity to the new Doublestrike feature.


Or if you want to obey the D&D rule more closely (and make the feat a little stronger), it only works when the rogue was not the last person to damage that enemy.

For the server to have each enemy keep track of the ID number for the last source of damage should be a negligible extra workload, and it would mean that the Rogue still gets the bonus in situations where he has primary aggro, so long as some other player is also attacking.

Negligible workload, but perhaps nothing that could be implemented by Update 5.

Then, who knows if even a bare bones special ability that simply gave +10% double strike could make it in Update 5.

Lithic
05-29-2010, 02:54 PM
I agree that rogues definately need something to give them +10% DPS to get them even close to other melees (And no acrobat bonuses don't count). It's rediculous that the class that would be doing 2-3 times more damage while sneak attacking in PnP, can't even keep up WITH sneak damage to a normal barbarian.

A fix to this could be adding sneak damage before crit multipliers, or enhancements to get through a monster's fortification (for the sneak damage, if not for true crits) while simultaneously increasing the number of endgame monsters with fort. An enhancement that gives each swing a chance to proc deception would be nice for when the rogue is the only melee around.

kamimitsu
05-29-2010, 03:28 PM
Options are almost always a good thing, and being forced to choose Skill Mastery is just dumb.