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Gnorbert
04-06-2010, 03:51 PM
I've seen many suggestions about balancing AC and lots of griping about the fact that someone wearing cloth can have a higher AC than a full plate armor can provide. The result is that it's LESS appealing to wear heavy armor since you are somehow better protected while wearing robes. I want to add more incentive to wear heavy armor such that you feel you are wearing more protection by doing so.

I don't know if this suggestion has been made before but I was thinking that all armors should be given a certain amount of DR that stacks with other sources of DR. The DR would scale with the armor type of course and could perhaps be the same amount as the unenhanced armor bonus provided by the armor.

Some examples:
Plate = 8 DR
Breastplate = 5 DR
Studded Leather = 3 DR
robes, outfits = 0 DR

Mithral property might even decrease the DR of the armor making it a trade off, you get 2 extra AC but you lose 2 DR.

Just spitballing here. Looking from the point of view of my barbarian, this would give me a reason to wear medium armor aside... given that my AC will still never be good enough to matter I would still wear a breatplate to get some extra DR.

The DR might need to be scaled based on the enhancement bonus of the armor so that low level armor is not totally overpowered by giving level 1 characters 8 DR right out of the gate. Something like each '+' of enhancement bonus on the armor gives 20% of the final DR of the armor. (+1 Plate would give 1 DR while +3 plate would give 5 DR and +5 plate gives full 8 DR)

Warforged would maybe get some DR based on the enhancement bonus of their Docent combined with whichever body feat they might have taken. Warforged barbarians will hate this idea since they don't typically take the mithral body feat. Maybe some natural warforged DR could be made stackable or something, needs exploration.


So... am I way out there?

grodon9999
04-06-2010, 03:53 PM
As a pajama-wearing monkey, I have to say that I agree with your concept if not your numbers.

Gnorbert
04-06-2010, 03:55 PM
As a pajama-wearing monkey, I have to say that I agree with your concept if not your numbers.

Yeah, numbers are just for examples to discuss. Might warrant less.. might even warrant more. Goal is really just to add more to the scales when deciding what type of armor to wear.

Goldeneye
04-06-2010, 03:55 PM
The concept is a great idea.

The problem is:
For random generated armor: +5 Mithril FP is the best you can get. That's a level 8 or 10 Armor.

However, there are MANY more ways to increase your DEX bonus. While AC increasing slows down around level 10 in FP, monks and robe wearers keep on increasing their AC.

DR would be a great way to fix this.
Stabbing a monk wearing a bath robe, or stabbing a fighter wearing full plate should not do the same damage.

Cetus
04-06-2010, 04:00 PM
/signed

Point is: When you get attacked, you should not take equal amounts of damage whether you have a hunk of metal covering ur chest or not. I should expect to take more damage when im naked than when I have a full plate on.

Club'in
04-06-2010, 04:11 PM
The think the original "hit points going up with levels" concept is a way to convey some gravity to your experience. So, a level 10 fighter being stabbed by the same kobold as a level 1 fighter would take the same numerical amount of damage, but the percentage of your overall hit point total would be less. It's not saying that the kobold could stab the level 10 fighter 10 times in the heart and he'd be fine. It's reflecting the fact that the level 10 fighter, through his greater experience, would be more adept at maneuvering around his opponents strike, and thereby lessening the overall impact of the blow. Robe wearing monks or rogues gain great maneuverability, compared to the heavily laden plate wearer, and are trained and experienced at avoiding the melee strike.

Aesop
04-06-2010, 04:31 PM
I'd made similar suggestions about 2 years ago...


For this system I think though that Armor should add to Blocking DR.


Cloth/Naked =+0 Blocking DR
Light Armor =+2 Blocking DR
Medium Armor =+4 Blocking DR
Heavy Armor =+6 Blocking DR



couple that with another suggestion I had to help out S&B Fighting

Shield Mastey would grant +3 Blocking DR +1 Shield AC and 10-20%(not sure how much possibly based on which shield used*) chance to "block" an attack (apply Blocking DR)

*
5% for Buckler
10% for Light Shields
15% for Heavy Shields
20% for Tower Shields


optionally Two Weapon Defence and Two Weapon Blocking could be combined togetther into a single feat that granted +1 AC +2 Blocking DR and 5% chance to "block" an attack

also optionally Two Handed Weapons would allow Bucklers to be used and have their effects applied. Even if the THF doesn't need/want the AC they still get the secondary effects of the Buckler (Guards, "blocking", etc)

also needed would be a change to Improved Shield Bash that gives it an active Toggle that lets the S&B fighter have Shield Bash Hook Attacks. This would reduce the large DPS gap slightly and let S&B be a more valid choice for more than the "stand and hold" tactic.


Aesop

Borror0
04-06-2010, 04:33 PM
It's very hard to have something meaningful but not overpowered from level 1 to 20.

Having 8 DR at level 1 is just quasi-invulnerability to melee attacks. On the other hand, 8 stacking DR is not that powerful at level 20. So, you have to start lower and make it scale with levels. However, there is no easy way to do that. You can't use enhancement bonus to armor as those stop increasing at level 8 and only start increases again at level 20, but only by +1. Either level 8 armor wearers would have too much DR or level 20 too little.

You also have to make it scale differently for each type of armor, so to avoid lighter armors to become nearly equal protection to heavy armor at higher levels.

This, again, makes the scaling difficult because the amounts are so small. If you make light armor scale by +1 every X levels, medium armor by +2 every X levels and heavy armor by +3 every X levels, you'll end up with very high amounts of stacking DR which would be overpowered. You'd have to vary the frequency of the increase for each armor type (+1 at X levels, +1 at Y levels and +1 at Z levels) but doing that in an elegant manner is quite difficult.

The only way to get it right is to scale based on the armor's minimum level, but that feels a little cheesy. And is against D&D rules in many ways. And then you'll have to find a way to explain clearly with what this DR stacks without being too confusing.

Aesop
04-06-2010, 04:37 PM
good point Bor.

perhaps have whateverthe bonus is based off the AC + Enhancement Value.


Maybe Half the AC (round down)+ the Enhancement Value


Not necessarily to a straight DR but to something... maybe to Blocking DR like I was suggesting



so at +1 Padded Armor would grant +1 Blocking DR
While +5 Mithril Full Plate of Heavy Fortification would grant 14 Blocking DR

or something like that


Aesop

Borror0
04-06-2010, 04:46 PM
Aesop, I have no clue of what you just said. :p

Aesop
04-06-2010, 04:52 PM
Aesop, I have no clue of what you just said. :p

Heavy Fortification is a +5 Armor Enhancement
on top of that you have an Enhancement Bonus to the Armor of +5
and Full Plate has an Armor value of 8 (half of which is 4)


Take Half the Armor Value 4
add to it the total Enhancement Value (+5 & Heavy Fortification (+5) ) 10

total +14


it would give a progression that supports heavier armor and has a progression that is already in place in the game

+5 Mithril Full Plate which is an ml8 would have 9 Blocking DR (half AC value =4 + Enhancement Value =5 total of 9)

from there it would progress based on the value of the additional Enhancements ... effectively the higher the ml the higher the bonus


Aesop

Borror0
04-06-2010, 05:12 PM
Heavy Fortification is a +5 Armor Enhancement
on top of that you have an Enhancement Bonus to the Armor of +5
and Full Plate has an Armor value of 8 (half of which is 4)
Ah! The word enhancement, in the case of armor, is very vague - hence the confusion. It could means the Enhancement bonus to armor, it could have meant the enchantment on the armor or it could have meant the sum of the base price modifiers on the armor. You meant the last one.

Use the word base price modifier, next time. ;)

Take Half the Armor Value 4
add to it the total Enhancement Value (+5 & Heavy Fortification (+5) ) 10
Doing it that way is doing it wrong. As I said in my first post in this thread, doing it this way diminishes the difference between heavy armor and light armor. For example, a a ML 20 fullplate would grant 15 DR while a ML 20 chain shirt would grant 13 DR and a ML 20 padded armor 11 DR. Meanwhile, the ML 0 of the same armors would grant, respectively, 5, 3 and 1 DR. The advantage of heavy armor is nearly insignificant at higher level, which I am sure isn't your intent.

Of course, that is on top of the fact that it means named fullplates would only grant armor bonus/2 DR. :p;)

Aesop
04-06-2010, 05:20 PM
Ah! The word enhancement, in the case of armor, is very vague - hence the confusion. It could means the Enhancement bonus to armor, it could have meant the enchantment on the armor or it could have meant the sum of the base price modifiers on the armor. You meant the last one.

Use the word base price modifier, next time. ;)

Doing it that way is doing it wrong. As I said in my first post in this thread, doing it this way diminishes the difference between heavy armor and light armor. For example, a a ML 20 fullplate would grant 15 DR while a ML 20 chain shirt would grant 13 DR and a ML 20 padded armor 11 DR. Meanwhile, the ML 0 of the same armors would grant, respectively, 5, 3 and 1 DR. The advantage of heavy armor is nearly insignificant at higher level, which I am sure isn't your intent.

Of course, that is on top of the fact that it means named fullplates would only grant armor bonus/2 DR. :p;)

I'd imagine that the DR could be subject to fudging on the named sets... just thought though ;).

It could be just straight the Armor value... so +5 fp would be 13 while padded would be 6

of course some other formula could be applied as well. I'm just looking for something relatively simple.

Having it straight as passive dr would probably be broken at low levels and insignificant at higher levels though, which is why I'm thinking as Blocking DR instead of Passive



add on:

of course it may be more simple to have a modifier based on how heavy the armor is. light gets a Modifier of 1/2 medium of 1 and Heavy of 2 and make it straight AC value.


so a +5 Mithril Breastplate being light armor would be (5+5) * 1/2 = 5

+5 Mithril Fullplate is Medium armor so (8+5) * 1 = 13

+5 Dragontouch Full Plate is Heavy so (5+8+2) * 2 = 30

that last one seems high... but something like that maybe 1.5 instead so (5+8+2) *1.5 = 22

well the exact numbers would need to be tweaked

Deathseeker
04-06-2010, 05:28 PM
I'll not even attempt to get in the middle of Aesop/Bor's discussion as my ddo geekfu is weak in the presence of these masters. But I like the overall concept, and I like the way Aesop is taking it.

Once you two hash it out let's get it on the "development request form", sign it in triplicate and submit to the proper middle manager at Turbine so we can get this rolling!

Definitely agree with the principle though...you take penalties with heavier armor (skills, spell failure, evasion, etc). There should be some type of benefit.

Oh, while you are at it, can we do something so splint mail, half plate, leather, etc have some use too? Seems silly to have a bunch of armor in the game but only a few (MFP, MBP, MCS and Robes) are useful.

FuzzyDuck81
04-06-2010, 05:32 PM
I'd just like a docent that grants stacking /adamantine DR... would be a good incentive for the adamantine body feat, and make my favoured soul very happy once he hits cap :)

Tumarek
04-06-2010, 05:34 PM
Agreed will be a though one to balance.... doing it over enhancement seems the only good way i can see.

I really would like to see shields giving DR when not blocking, would just give the weapon selection more spice.

Borror0
04-06-2010, 05:53 PM
It could be just straight the Armor value... so +5 fp would be 13 while padded would be 6

of course some other formula could be applied as well. I'm just looking for something relatively simple.
We run into the same problem as earlier though. It's incredibly simple and thus easy to grasp, which is good, but the progression is not good. Players start a level 1 with a 9 stackable DR fullplate, have a 13 stackable DR fullplate by level 8 and then have to wait until level 16 to have a 15 stackable DR dragontouched plate armor. And then no more improvements even with Epic gear (unless I'm forgetting something).

And it still diminishes the value of lighter armor types, but less than your previous suggestion.

Having it straight as passive dr would probably be broken at low levels and insignificant at higher levels though, which is why I'm thinking as Blocking DR instead of Passive

You lost me again.

of course it may be more simple to have a modifier based on how heavy the armor is.
That makes the most sense, but it's tough to find a way with a good scalability.

If you base the DR on the armor bonus, you'll have a steep start as the base armor bonus continually increases up to level 8 but then the progression will pretty much stop. Also, the DR will be very powerful early on.

mediocresurgeon
04-06-2010, 06:02 PM
How would this apply to docents?
Composite body?
Mithril Body?
I guess Adamantine Body has some innate DR, but it doesn't stack with hardly anything and it's a very small bonus.

Tomalon
04-06-2010, 06:09 PM
It's very hard to have something meaningful but not overpowered from level 1 to 20.

Having 8 DR at level 1 is just quasi-invulnerability to melee attacks. On the other hand, 8 stacking DR is not that powerful at level 20. So, you have to start lower and make it scale with levels. However, there is no easy way to do that. You can't use enhancement bonus to armor as those stop increasing at level 8 and only start increases again at level 20, but only by +1. Either level 8 armor wearers would have too much DR or level 20 too little.

.
Could be a good time for them to go back and make some changes to the min lvls of armor. I always thought it odd that +5 FP was lvl 8 anyways, or is it lvl 6 been so long since i wore clean +5FP. That could give them the opportunity to scale the DR to the + of the armor. Maybe something like +1 FP gets 1DR and no min lvl. +2FP gets 3DR and lvl 5 min.....or something like that.

Borror0
04-06-2010, 06:12 PM
How would this apply to docents?
You would go by body type. The rest would depend on what system is picked for the progression.

Aesop
04-06-2010, 06:32 PM
We run into the same problem as earlier though. It's incredibly simple and thus easy to grasp, which is good, but the progression is not good. Players start a level 1 with a 9 stackable DR fullplate, have a 13 stackable DR fullplate by level 8 and then have to wait until level 16 to have a 15 stackable DR dragontouched plate armor. And then no more improvements even with Epic gear (unless I'm forgetting something).

And it still diminishes the value of lighter armor types, but less than your previous suggestion.

You lost me again.

That makes the most sense, but it's tough to find a way with a good scalability.

If you base the DR on the armor bonus, you'll have a steep start as the base armor bonus continually increases up to level 8 but then the progression will pretty much stop. Also, the DR will be very powerful early on.



Honestly I don't want Passive DR at all. That should be a different function. I'm looking at Blocking DR.

LIght Armor has a number of major benefits that Heavy armor doesn't... not the least of which is being Evasion Friendly. Additionally you have the ASF and Armor Check Penalties. The only real value of Heavy Armor is lower Max Dex, which is greatly diminished in DDO because of the high Stat possibilies.


So go back to my first post and just change out the beginning section... but include the chance to apply Blocking DR part.



so


effectivelt Armor would add Blocking DR much like Shields do now, but there will be a small chance that while the character is not Actively Blocking they will occassionally passively Block an incoming attack.

Armor could either be just assigned the Blocking DR (with Heavier Armor getting the lion's share) or there could be an actual formula that figures the Blocking DR of Armor with basis in its AC and type.


Maybe the Armor types have multipliers based on type cloth light medium and heavy.

Cloth =0
Light = 1/3
Medium = 2/3
Heavy = 1

Formula would be AC times Multiplier, round up

+1 leather = 3 * 1/3 = 1
+5 Mithril Breast Plate = 10 *1/3 = 4

+1 Chainmail = 6 * 2/3 = 4
+5 Mithril Fullplate = 13 * 2/3 = 9

+1 Full Plate = 8 * 1 = 8
+5 Dragontouched Plate = 15 * 1 = 15

Mithril Body would count as Light armor and Adamantine would count as Heavy

the numbers aren't perfect but the general idea is there.

add to this the possibility of applying the Blocking DR while actively engaged in combat and you have some actual defensive ability and a chance to negate a lot of damage.

Passive DR benefits attached to armor would cheapen the abilities of Adamantine Armors as well as Barbarian class benefits. Stacking Benefits would create a major balancing problem. This solution is useful without being overpowered.... well so it seems to me.

Aesop

Borror0
04-06-2010, 06:41 PM
Honestly I don't want Passive DR at all. That should be a different function. I'm looking at Blocking DR.
Armor increasing your blocking DR is very anti-flavorful, no?

effectivelt Armor would add Blocking DR much like Shields do now, but there will be a small chance that while the character is not Actively Blocking they will occassionally passively Block an incoming attack.
I don't like it: it's silly and has no significant effect on gameplay.

sirgog
04-06-2010, 08:46 PM
Here's my suggestion.

Assign each individual piece of armor a % chance to passively block. This would be generally equal to its double its minimum level, but would on occasion differ on named items.

When an attack is passively blocked in this way, it deals decreased damage - 10% less for light armor, 25% medium, 40% heavy. Adamantine armor would have a 10% further decrease in damage.


So Dragontouched Full Plate would have a 32% chance for you to take 40% less damage from a given melee/ranged attack (overall damage mitigation of 12.8%), and a +5 Adamantine Full Plate of Stability (min level 10) would have a 20% chance to reduce damage by 50% (10% mitigation).

This would also restore some of the randomness to combat that is removed by the availability of Heavy Fortification, but without making one-shot kills as possible as they are if Fortification is nerfed.

Aesop
04-06-2010, 09:34 PM
Armor increasing your blocking DR is very anti-flavorful, no?

I don't like it: it's silly and has no significant effect on gameplay.

I disagree (obviously ;) ).

Armor does exactly that and is completely within flavor.

Armor doesn't help you dodge attacks it deflects and ABSORBS attacks... like blocking you absorb the blow.

Now maybe instead of actually adding to the Blocking DR it justs applies it more often.

So like Sirgog (good thought path btw) said, Light Medium and Heavy just improve the percentage.

Maybe something like

Cloth= 0%
Light = 5%
Medium = 10%
Heavy = 20%

Shield = +5%

and you just apply your regular Blocking DR

Maybe Shield Mastery adds +5% and the 3 Blocking DR

Two Weapon Defence and Blocking combine into Two Weapon Defence and add 1 AC 2 Blocking DR and 5% chance to Block an attack

So a Heavy Armor wearer with Shield and Shield Mastery has a 30% (or higher depending on other factors) chance to "block" an attack. At high levels would you still say that sucking up 35 damage beyond normal DR every 3 hits is useless? ... ie DR 12 or so


again the numbers aren't perfect and balanced but I'm mostly speaking to the general idea

Aesop

tomfar72
04-06-2010, 09:52 PM
The only scary thing I see about this is how Turbine would increase mobs damage per swing to try and balance this. If they gave plate wearers high DR, monsters would have to do more damage to make encounters chalenging. Other games have things similar to this. I'm going to use WoW as an example. Warrior and Pally tanks have a dodge%, parry%, Block%, and AC(AC in that game acts like DR..heavier armor=less damage taken) Other tank classes use either dodge or parry and AC. One of the big differences between DDO and WoW is that most dungeons in WoW REQUIRE you to have a tank with you at all times, and DDO doesn't. WoW's damage is scaled to the fact there there will be a dedicated tank(s) for all dungeon encounters, and DDO's damage is not scaled that high.(I'm not talking about Epic dungeons, as I'm sure you pretty well need a dedicated tank there.) If DDO were to add DR, they would either have to assume every group will have a tank and ramp up damage accordingly or leave the damage output of the mobs as it is and sword and boarders would become gods. I'm not saying either of these would happen, but they are a possibility. In DDO, I see alot of people looking for a healer for groups. In WOW it's about 50/50 either looking for a healer or a tank. Just something to think about.

Gnorbert
04-06-2010, 11:15 PM
Well... if you ask me a sword and board fighter in full plate SHOULD be the pinnacle of AC/DR/Blocking. He's sacrificing damage to be able to withstand a lot of punishment... so let's give the proper tools to make that worthwhile.

chodelord
04-07-2010, 04:52 AM
I think the simplest solution would be to make min level 10 "hardened" armor that is 6 armor bonus better than the level 1 version.

So Hardened Full Plate would have an armor bonus of 14 with a min level of 10. Hardened Chain Shirt would have an armor bonus of 10 and so on. Then the pluses would scale like normal, + 1 Hardened Full Plate would have an armor bonus of 15 and be min level 11. +5 Hardened Full Plate would have a min level of 18 and an armor bonus of 19. Maybe only have heavy armors add 6 and have med and light armors add 4 and 2.

Shield could work but same way. That way armor continues to scale with level the same way dex does. Maybe even have "advanced mage armor" and "advanced shield" spells that scale also.

Obviously all of the high level armor drops and dragontouched would need to be tweaked but I don't think this method would unbalance the plate wearers who are disadvantaged at higher levels by giving up evasion.

Monkey_Archer
04-07-2010, 05:57 AM
Forget scaling it.

Why not just give 1 stacking DR for light, 2 for medium, 3 for heavy?

Nothing overpowered at low level, yet even 3 DR at level 20 has some value... defenders would add that to their 6 shield DR for a total of 9, WF with adamantine plate would get up to 8 instead of 5, Barbarians would have a reason to wear armor even with no ac, etc...

Borror0
04-07-2010, 06:58 AM
Here's my suggestion.
Not bad, but very WoW-like.

The only problem that I see is that it's not an opposed check to it has a limited lifespan.

Armor doesn't help you dodge attacks it deflects and ABSORBS attacks... like blocking you absorb the blow.
Blocking, in DDO, is a conscious action: you focus on voluntarily stopping the attack. That's why it's called active DR. However, the protection that an armor offers is passive. Unlike a shield, which you can move around to grant a greater defense, your armor protects you equally for as long as you wear it properly. There is no defensive stance to optimize the defensive capabilities of your armor like there are for shields.

Thus, it makes no sense for armor to grant a bonus to your active DR. It also makes no sense that, sometimes, your armor makes your blocking DR come into play since your blocking DR consists mostly of bonus from your shield.

Dendrix
04-07-2010, 07:17 AM
Have armour AC increase as you level automatically.

For every N levels above level 5 you have you get +1 innate AC bonus (much like monks) providing you are wearing armour. That N varies depending on the weight of the armour.

Heavy N= 3, Medium N=4, Light N=5

level 8, Heavy +1
level 11, Heavy +2
level 14, Heavy +3
level 17 Heavy +4
level 20 Heavy +5

similar progressions for Medium and Light.

Instead of AC, make it passive stacking DR.

grodon9999
04-07-2010, 08:09 AM
Forget scaling it.

Why not just give 1 stacking DR for light, 2 for medium, 3 for heavy?

Nothing overpowered at low level, yet even 3 DR at level 20 has some value... defenders would add that to their 6 shield DR for a total of 9, WF with adamantine plate would get up to 8 instead of 5, Barbarians would have a reason to wear armor even with no ac, etc...

Sold. next.

Diarden
04-07-2010, 08:25 AM
Why not give DR bonus's to the different armor types like listed above, and have all DR of the same type stack? Currently it does not stack, but if it could, we would all be better off.

Krag
04-07-2010, 08:51 AM
Alternative idea:

- Stackable DR as an item enhancement.

Obviously the same property on a robe will have higher ML than on a fullplate. Adjusting ML you can easily exclude starters from wearing +8DR items and keep it for higher levels.

Pro
- makes random armor viable
- easy to balance

Contra
- AC builds will have their balls kicked once again

Diarden
04-07-2010, 08:59 AM
Well, there's a few things that can be done or said.

For example, say you are a Barb and you have your innate DR. This goes up to 9 with available Enhancements and levels, which is basic DR. Now, if you put on Golden Greaves for example, this bonus goes to 13, so on and so forth.

Adamantine Armor grants Adamantine DR. This would stack with DR of the Adamantine type (Adamantine Shield on a WF, would increase the WF's armor, not create a separate DR on its character page).

Someone said Mithril should grant 2 less DR because it's giving 2 more AC, but I disagree. Mithril is a stronger metal, thus should offer the same if not more DR than its counterparts.

This would also give Turbine more leeway in creating armors or augmentations. Currently, some of the Epic upgrades are not so epic. If this is instituted, put in a +2 DR mod for colorless or Yellow, giving people more choices when upgrading gear. I don't care how many tokens it would cost, a stackable DR that could go in most augmentation slots would be awesome.

Just my 2 cents.

Borror0
04-07-2010, 09:07 AM
Alternative idea:
- Stackable DR as an item enhancement.
The rules don't allow that easily. You would have to make very wordy descriptions to have that work.

Krag
04-07-2010, 09:15 AM
The rules don't allow that easily. You would have to make very wordy descriptions to have that work.

This maid is no longer virgin.
As far as I know Titanic Docent stacks with everything.

Borror0
04-07-2010, 09:21 AM
This maid is no longer virgin.
As far as I know Titanic Docent stacks with everything.
I thought you meant "DR that can stack with other types of DR" and not "DR that stacks with every types of DR." The former would lead to ridiculously wordy rule text while the latter would just be irresponsible: it would be too difficult to avoid people from stacking too many DR unless you keep the sources VERY limited.

DR that stacks with every other sources of DR would be a bad idea for the same reason that Dodge bonuses on items were a bad idea.

Cyr
04-07-2010, 09:35 AM
Interesting ideas.

Some sound way too overpowered though. There are strong reasons for certain builds to wear heavy armor right now. It's called AC.

The real problem right now is that there is very little reason for many builds to wear non cloth/heavy armor due to AC not mattering because they are off the dice. That is the real issue here.

Anything done in this venue of the heavier the armor the better the buff will only result in another lopsided boost to heavy armor while leaving light and medium armors relatively untouched and robe wearers boned without really fixing the real issue.

The real fix here is one that addresses the falling off the dice on the AC range directly. We have seen threads about this in the past. There have been some great ideas in these threads. Some of these include...

*rolling for AC (instead of 'taking a 10')
*monsters having attack chains like players with either bonuses or penalties to each subsequent attack in their chain
*getting rid of the d20 for monster attacks and using a statistical curve such as a bell curve for a much wider range of possible attack rolls

Diarden
04-07-2010, 09:40 AM
The problem here Cyr is that AC can be higher while not wearing Plate armor. A high dex character can obtain more AC via robes than if they donned Full Plate and took the Armor Dex Bonus hit. This idea is offering more for tanks that wish to still wear Full Plate to still have some more protection than that of other classes.

Rangers and Monks pulling off 80-90 AC is great, but why should they have the same or better protection than a Fighter or Pally in full plate with less or the same AC? There needs to be incentive (more than just Intimidate).

Borror0
04-07-2010, 09:41 AM
The real problem right now is that there is very little reason for many builds to wear non cloth/heavy armor due to AC not mattering because they are off the dice.
Spot on. +1

The problem here Cyr is that AC can be higher while not wearing Plate armor.
That's not a problem.

Krag
04-07-2010, 09:43 AM
I thought you meant "DR that can stack with other types of DR" and not "DR that stacks with every types of DR." The former would lead to ridiculously wordy rule text while the latter would just be irresponsible: it would be too difficult to avoid people from stacking too many DR unless you keep the sources VERY limited.

DR that stacks with every other sources of DR would be a bad idea for the same reason that Dodge bonuses on items were a bad idea.

This.
Only body armor slot that is currently occupied with pijama on 90% non-WF characters.

Delacroix21
04-07-2010, 09:49 AM
There is also the problem of Epic (or even high end quests on Elite), where AC is meaningless.


Your plate wearing no-AC characters would still be benefiting from the inherant DR with no effort vs. the loss of the use of the cloth wearer's AC with months of farming, and allot of stat allocation.


Armor "should" be incentivised through AC... perhaps by scrapping the DnD system and going for %damage reduction, or some other change. A high strength/low dex character will have more AC in plate then cloth, thus incentivising its use.

Cyr
04-07-2010, 10:02 AM
The problem here Cyr is that AC can be higher while not wearing Plate armor. A high dex character can obtain more AC via robes than if they donned Full Plate and took the Armor Dex Bonus hit. This idea is offering more for tanks that wish to still wear Full Plate to still have some more protection than that of other classes.

Rangers and Monks pulling off 80-90 AC is great, but why should they have the same or better protection than a Fighter or Pally in full plate with less or the same AC? There needs to be incentive (more than just Intimidate).

There is incentives. They don't have to throw huge amount of build points into their dex and wisdom. I run with some great heavy armor wearing toons. They are not hurting.

The real issue is the d20 range on AC and people falling off the dice. The heavy armor builds who don't fall off the dice are not the issue. It's the huge number of toons who are off the dice where AC does not matter at all. They are the ones who have also switched to robes (just because they can swap faster).

If you THINK the issue is that the plate armor guy is not close enough to a shermin tank compared to the robe wearing monk then you get a false ideal of how to fix something. That is why these ideas while interesting do not address the primary concern and will create their own imbalances. You might ask, huh why doesn't it work?

*Heavy armor wearers get an unneeded buff. In fact, it's better then everyone else. This makes anyone capable of wearing heavy armor where AC didn't matter before just putting on full plate instead.
*Any light/medium armor balanced for AC is still pointless
*All this really does is give a buff to everyone who does not use robes for AC, because they just throw on their obligatory set of heavy armor.
*There is still no incentive for AC gear on these no AC toons. Nothing changes for them except a costume change. Therefore, you still don't get one of the primary statistics in DDO to matter (and all it's relevant equipment and build trade offs) for any more toons then it mattered for before (heavy armor tanks/robe wearing monk splashes/robe wearing monks).

BurningDownTheHouse
04-07-2010, 10:04 AM
My problem with the idea of inherent rd on armor is that it will be very hard to avoid the feature turnning into another "must have".
Examples:
"All wf barbs must have the adamantine body feat (if you don't have the additional stacking dr you are a gimp)".
"All casters must have some sort of real armor with spell faliure mitigation gear or enhancements".

I really hate it when somthing that was added to game becomes a "must have".
Don't know about the rest of you.

Diarden
04-07-2010, 10:08 AM
Hate to break it to you, but im fairly certain that the WF Body DR and Barb DR do not stack. They are two different types of DR.

Borror0
04-07-2010, 10:14 AM
Hate to break it to you, but im fairly certain that the WF Body DR and Barb DR do not stack. They are two different types of DR.
He was referring to the OP's suggestion. The Adamantine Body feat is the only for a WF to wear armor, and that costs two feats to WF barbarian.

BurningDownTheHouse
04-07-2010, 10:19 AM
He was referring to the OP's suggestion. The Adamantine Body feat is the only for a WF to wear armor, and that costs two feats to WF barbarian.

Well, to be fair it will still cost only one even for a wf barb because they are always proficient with their body.

My real problem is all this pigeonholing.

testing1234
04-07-2010, 10:22 AM
how long would any of these system take to explain to a new player and what is the chance a new player would guess the correct system armor dr/blocking worked?

to be fair a new player is unlikely to understand how the current system work either.

my own suggestion would be add a few unique effects only available on heavy / medium /light DT armour and random generated armor, lifeshield would be a good example.
its easy to understand doesn't require a long explanation.

gavagai
04-07-2010, 10:34 AM
The idea of bringing in DR is interest, but I think Cyr nailed the issue:



*There is still no incentive for AC gear on these no AC toons. Nothing changes for them except a costume change. Therefore, you still don't get one of the primary statistics in DDO to matter (and all it's relevant equipment and build trade offs) for any more toons then it mattered for before (heavy armor tanks/robe wearing monk splashes/robe wearing monks).

This kind of DR is just a giveaway to builds that already dump defense. So if we want to make the Armor-Clad Tank more viable it would not only have DR (or passive deflection) aspects, but some thinking about the core benefit of Defensive Combat and Armor Class.

Personally, I wouldn't make these kinds of DR inherent in armor, but rather either trained through defense-oriented feats (such as Shield Mastery, perhaps) or, more accessible to most players, craftable onto armor based upon the type of armor. In the latter case, you could have House D favor unlock a master smithy who will put stacking 3/- on your Breastplate or 5/- on your Full plate, &c.

Gnorbert
04-07-2010, 10:53 AM
*Heavy armor wearers get an unneeded buff. In fact, it's better then everyone else. This makes anyone capable of wearing heavy armor where AC didn't matter before just putting on full plate instead.
*Any light/medium armor balanced for AC is still pointless
*All this really does is give a buff to everyone who does not use robes for AC, because they just throw on their obligatory set of heavy armor.
*There is still no incentive for AC gear on these no AC toons. Nothing changes for them except a costume change. Therefore, you still don't get one of the primary statistics in DDO to matter (and all it's relevant equipment and build trade offs) for any more toons then it mattered for before (heavy armor tanks/robe wearing monk splashes/robe wearing monks).

I'm not trying to fix AC with this suggestion. That problem is much more complex than simply adding some DR.

I am trying to give incentive to wear heavy armor. Why would it be a bad thing that people who are capable suddenly start wearing that heavy armor? You can still wear light/medium armor to balance for AC and still get some DR on top of that. You might see people actually take the Heavy armor proficiency. -4 to hit might not be a problem for some builds in non-epic content but it will hurt when trying to hit anything in Epic.

The real point of this is to give motivation for characters to wear the highest armor type they are capable of wearing. ESPECIALLY on "no AC toons". The TWF DPS paladin has no reason to wear plate at higher levels, in fact cloth armor which is fast to swap for bonuses becomes more appealing.

If he could instead get some DR by wearing his thematically appropriate Plate armor for which he is granted proficiency, then I think it's good that suddenly he has a choice to make instead of there being only one logical option.

Borror0
04-07-2010, 10:57 AM
I am trying to give incentive to wear heavy armor.
It's already there. It's called Armor Class.

Gnorbert
04-07-2010, 11:06 AM
It's already there. It's called Armor Class.

Well... we've just seen some examples of how AC is broken for the majority of character builds that simply can't get a meaningful AC. So while fixing AC is another subject for debate, I am suggesting a different incentive to wear heavier armor over cloth... particularly when the AC is doing nothing for you.

Krag
04-07-2010, 11:08 AM
It's already there. It's called Armor Class.

Tell me how increasing AC from 26 to 31 would make Heavy Plate even a tiny bit more appealing?

Borror0
04-07-2010, 11:12 AM
Tell me how increasing AC from 26 to 31 would make Heavy Plate even a tiny bit more appealing?
I'll quote Cyr from earlier in this thread: "The real problem right now is that there is very little reason for many builds to wear non cloth/heavy armor due to AC not mattering because they are off the dice. That is the real issue here." If it was possible for DPS characters to reach meaningful AC, heavy armor would have its benefits.

The problem is that the current incentive does not matter, because people fall off the dice.

Cyr
04-07-2010, 11:20 AM
I'm not trying to fix AC with this suggestion. That problem is much more complex than simply adding some DR.

I am trying to give incentive to wear heavy armor. Why would it be a bad thing that people who are capable suddenly start wearing that heavy armor? You can still wear light/medium armor to balance for AC and still get some DR on top of that. You might see people actually take the Heavy armor proficiency. -4 to hit might not be a problem for some builds in non-epic content but it will hurt when trying to hit anything in Epic.

The real point of this is to give motivation for characters to wear the highest armor type they are capable of wearing. ESPECIALLY on "no AC toons". The TWF DPS paladin has no reason to wear plate at higher levels, in fact cloth armor which is fast to swap for bonuses becomes more appealing.

If he could instead get some DR by wearing his thematically appropriate Plate armor for which he is granted proficiency, then I think it's good that suddenly he has a choice to make instead of there being only one logical option.

It's not a bad thing for people capable of wearing heavy armor to wear heavy armor. It is a bad thing to grant bonuses for no reason other then thematic reasons. That is what this suggestion coupled with the reasoning behind it now sounds like. This would not increase choice. It would just shift the right choice to the heavy armor. That sounds like a reward for no reason to me.

Fixing the real issues are what matter here.

honkuimushi
04-07-2010, 02:38 PM
There is one reason to wear heavy armor over robes-- repair costs. Since EU, I've noticed that I've been taking a lot more item damage. This is especially noticeable on my padded armor and robe wearers. They take a lot more damage to their armor, sometimes even getting worn in a single quest. And for those using unbound items, they've accumulated a lot of permadamage. I agree that AC is the root of this issue and that it does need a look. I think iterative attcks should be the centrpierce of any change. Still, I think some loosening of the DR rules should be considered.

First, I think Armor Specialization should be added. It's a feat that allows you to choose 1 type of medium or heavy armor and when using masterwork or better sets of that armor, you gain DR 2/-. One prereq is that you need BAB 12, so there isn't any worry about balancing it for lower levels.

For stacking purposes I think passive DR/- should be divided into 5 categories-- Armor Specialization, Adamantine armor, class DR (including Barbarian and Stalwart Defender), acessory DR and shield DR. DR from the same category shouldn't stack, but will stack with the other 4 categories. That would prevent Dwarven Barbarian Stalwart Defender uber DR characters. However, I think that the Stalwart DR should be changed to be always on, not only when using a shield--just like in PnP. It also makes Adamantine armor more appealing to Barbarians and Stalwart builds. If Barbarians could get 4 more points of DR, I think Adamantine breatplates would be a lot more popular. Similarly, it would allow you to use 1 item like the Golden Greaves to increase it.

That brings me to shield DR. I think that all characters using a shield should get passive DR. 1/- for light, 2/- for heavy, and 3/- for tower shields. That value shouldn't be overpowering for the Harbor or 20th level play. I could see increasing the value of the DR by 1 point across the board at BAB 10 and 20, but it's not essential. I could also see adding 1 point of passive DR for an Adamantine shield.

So a Fighter who takes a feat and uses Adamantine armor could have DR 5/- past level 12, 8 with the Greaves. I think that's ok. It's a bit more protection, but you're bypassing Dragontouched and using 2 slots and a feat. Barbarians could boost their DR by just wearing adamantine and items like the Greaves and could spend a feat to gain 2 more. But those that really gain would be those who sacrifice DPS by wearing a shield.

My only real concern is that WF are kind of left out. Maybe a feat or enhancement to change their DR /Adamantine to DR/-- perhaps tied into the Defender PrEs.

grodon9999
04-07-2010, 02:47 PM
Out of curiosity - can somebody post a breakdown of a TWF Kensai 20 in heavy armor - what's their highest "reasonably attained" AC? By "reasonably attained" I mean no epic items or short-term buffs, raid loot and crafted stuff is fine. best I can come up with is 58 or so with CE on.

Cyr
04-07-2010, 02:50 PM
Out of curiosity - can somebody post a breakdown of a TWF Kensai 20 in heavy armor - what's their highest "reasonably attained" AC? By "reasonably attained" I mean no epic items or short-term buffs, raid loot and crafted stuff is fine. best I can come up with is 58 or so with CE on.

No epic items? That lowers top end AC a good amount on a heavy armor fighter.

grodon9999
04-07-2010, 02:52 PM
No epic items? That lowers top end AC a good amount on a heavy armor fighter. Only reason I threw that in there is I don't think a TWF Kensai can reach "epic" AC anyway. Knock yourself out, do and epic and a non-epic.

Aesop
04-07-2010, 03:30 PM
Try making a suggestion Bor.

Its fun.

Much better than just trying to tear other peoples suggestions down...

also you still have failed to actually give a good reason against Armor absorbing Damage as part of a passive form of Blocking... You've only stated that a broken system that currently exists is the way it is... not an argument at all

Aesop

Borror0
04-07-2010, 04:59 PM
Much better than just trying to tear other peoples suggestions down...
Impossible!! ;)

Seriously, though, I have a lot of trouble coming up with suggestions to things because I self-censor a lot. Often, I won't post an idea until I feel I have thought it through. If the solution is quite simple, it might be a matter of minutes but when the solution has a lot of ramifications it might takes days before I feel comfortable posting it. Some people accuse me of not valuing others' suggestion, as if I think highly of myself, when, in reality, I apply the same strict criteria on my own suggestions.

I'm not crazy enough to argue with myself out loud, so you don't get to see it. :p

The problem I have here in this case is two fold:

It's very hard to come up with a suggestion that scales well and is neither overpowered nor a waste of time
I have trouble seeing what it would really improve in the game

I already covered the first point thoroughly in the thread, so I won't needlessly elaborate more on it now but let me explain what I mean by the second point: I feel that such a change would take us further from D&D rules while not giving anything of value in exchange. You might argue that it would make armors more attractive, but wouldn't improving the range of meaningful AC take care of that as well?

I'm no purist but I don't like moving away from 3.5 D&D if it's not warranted.

TL;DR: I suck at brainstorming and I'm not sold on the need for this change.

also you still have failed to actually give a good reason against Armor absorbing Damage as part of a passive form of Blocking
Answer this question: how does it makes sense that an heavy mundane armor gives you a better chance to block with your shield?

redspecter23
04-07-2010, 05:14 PM
Not sure if something along these lines has been mentioned yet, but how about a feat?

Heavy Armor Mastery
Requirement BAB 6, Heavy Armor Proficiency
While wearing heavy armor you gain passive DR equal to your level (or maybe equal to your BAB?)

This solves some of the scaling issues. Pajama wearers gain no benefit unless they want to shut off evasion and monk bonuses and heavy pally/fighter types gain some more survivability.

Borror0
04-07-2010, 05:32 PM
Not sure if something along these lines has been mentioned yet, but how about a feat?
IMO, it's really the best way: like that you stray away from 3.5 D&D rules, you don't make things harder to understand for new players, have much more freedom with scaling and get to add one or more feats (which adds a clear purpose).

20 DR is still a lot to have at level 20, though - especially when you factor grazing hits.

How about:

Light Armor Mastery
Requirement: BAB 1, Light Armor Proficiency
While wearing light armor, you gain DR/- equal to 1/4 your level, rounded up.

Medium Armor Mastery
Requirement: BAB 3, Medium Armor Proficiency
While wearing medium armor, you gain DR/- equal to half your level, rounded up.

Heavy Armor Mastery
Requirement: BAB 6, Heavy Armor Proficiency
While wearing heavy armor, you gain DR/- equal to 3/4 your level, rounded up.

The question is, how much does this shaft barbarians?

pootard
04-07-2010, 05:48 PM
What about having the different armors affect the damage done from grazing blows only.
Make it percentage based so you still take some damage either way, and actual hits still do full damage.

Delacroix21
04-07-2010, 07:58 PM
I am still standing behind an overhaul of the d20 armor system over more freebes to strength based no-ac builds. They allready gain the benefit of only needing to pump 2 stats (even TWFs only need that intial amount of dex) vs. 4. In fact I would say endgame elite and epic allready favors these builds as AC becomes meaningless, and their higher HP starts to shine.


It seems the problem you have presented is that since AC is meaningless, its better to wear fast changing robes then plate.


So why not focus the thread on fixing the main issue you have pointed out? It just seems like trying to add DR/ etc. to plate skirts the real problem being faced in DDO. I would love to see people excited again about pulling a +5 mithral fullplate. The d20 AC system has never worked, its time to switch over to something new. The same AC system most MMO's follow works fine, where AC adds a % damage reduction.

Aesop
04-08-2010, 05:24 AM
Answer this question: how does it makes sense that an heavy mundane armor gives you a better chance to block with your shield?

I will answer your question with a question.

why are you assuming that you only block wiht a shield?


Blocking is essentially catching the attack on a hard point and riding it out.


spread your arms wide and close your eyes.

try to relax.

tell your friend to hit you somewhere.

it will hurt.

Now open your eyes turn your shoulder and tell your friend to hit you in the shoulder.

Try to lessen the damage by rocking with the blow.

That is in essence what the DDO blocking is.

If blocking was just related to shield then no one else would be able to do it and gain a benefit.

You do it better with a shield because you have a solid outer layer that helps absorb the attack.

Armor is also a solid outer layer that helps absorb attacks...the heavier the outer layer them more damage it absorbs from a solid swing.

ask an sca heavy list fighter what thier armor does. It deflects the glancing attacks off to the sides (pretty much AC) and absorbs a lot of the damage from more direct attacks (DR). Usually in combat you are aware of the incoming attacks and brace for them when you can so you absorb the damage more evenly thus reduce the impact... essentially blocking.


I think a static DR would cause a too much escalation... I could be wrong, but that's just the way I see it. I also think that it would be enteringthe perveiw of the Barbarian a little too strongly. and moces away from the core feeling a little more than would really like.

Blocking DR is already a non PnP thing and as such I don't have as strong an attahment to it. In fact I think the system is poorly done as it takes the person doing it out of the fight. Having a chance of it applying without taking the person out of the fight feels more right to me than the other methods.

Aesop

Aesop
04-08-2010, 05:32 AM
The question is, how much does this shaft barbarians?

Yeah that's the issue really.

If the DR stacks then you've got Barbs with heavy armor with a 25 DR/-... thus escalation

If it doesn't you have Barbs whose class feature is completely over ridden by someone wearing +1 Full Plate.


Aesop

Borror0
04-08-2010, 07:09 AM
why are you assuming that you only block wiht a shield?
Because your shield increases your blocking DR. It directly follows that the blow hit the shield, otherwise why would Shield Mastery or my shield's base DR help in any way? You're taking the blow full front but using your shield to absorb a bit of the impact (or, if not your shield, you're using your forearms and weapons). In that sense, it does not make sense for your armor to grant any DR that you do not also have during normal combat: if your armor protects you while you're blocking, it protects you the very same while you're fighting.

It's not like you can take a stance to minimize the damage that you can't if you're wearing boxers or a ballet tutu. And it's not like your armor protects you any better just because you're blocking: a hit on the shoulder while blocking and while not blocking should hit for the same.

In other words, it makes no sense for an armor to gain Dr. It can have passive DR, but it does not make sense for a mundane armor to grant active DR.

In fact I think the system is poorly done as it takes the person doing it out of the fight.
That goes back to an old suggestion I made:
1. Decrease the delay to block when pressing shift (again)
2. Allow players to disable shield bashing via a toggle feat

It'd allow S&B players to block in combat more often (it'd probably be a waste of time for other players).

If it doesn't you have Barbs whose class feature is completely over ridden by someone wearing +1 Full Plate.
It does cost a few, though. And You could even make a Medium Armor Mastery prerequisite for Heavy Armor Mastery and make Light Armor Mastery a prerequisite to Medium Armor Mastery if that is deemed too powerful. In fact, it'd be wiser to start this way and remove prerequisites if it is deemed too weak.

I'm not saying it's perfect. But you asked me to make a suggestion.

Alanim
04-08-2010, 03:10 PM
Hope this comes out right.

Name AB MDB ACP ASFC
Padded 1 8 0 5% Armor bonus+enhancement bonus / 2 = DR
Leather 2 6 0 10% Armor bonus+enhancement bonus / 2 = DR
Studded leather 3 5 -1 15% Armor bonus+enhancement bonus / 2 = DR
Chain shirt 4 4 -2 20% Armor bonus+enhancement bonus / 2 = DR
Hide armor 3 4 -3 20% Armor bonus+enhancement bonus / 2 = DR
Scale mail 4 3 -4 25% Armor bonus+enhancement bonus / 2 = DR
Chainmail 5 2 -5 30% Armor bonus / 2 = n+enhancement bonus = DR
Brigandine 5 3 -4 25% Armor bonus / 2 = n+enhancement bonus = DR
Breastplate 5 3 -4 25% Armor bonus / 2 = n+enhancement bonus = DR
Splint mail 6 0 -7 40% Armor bonus / 2 = n+enhancement bonus = DR
Banded mail 6 1 -6 35% Armor bonus / 2 = n+enhancement bonus = DR
Half plate 7 0 -7 40% Armor bonus / 2 = n+enhancement bonus = DR
Full plate 8 1 -6 35% Armor bonus / 2 = n+enhancement bonus = DR

If you're not Proficient with the armor, you lose 2 DR while wearing the armor(after all equations)

This goes by all sub category's as I thought that'd be the best way to balance it out. it's also very non-overpowering progression.

Mirimon
04-08-2010, 04:18 PM
I'll throw this out and see what is thought of it.

How about instead of adding a static dr to heavy armor, add a con(or str) bonus in a method similar to how lighter armor has a larger dex bonus to ac. This way lighter armor is more geared to dodge and heavy armor is designed for damage resist. Not going to work out numbers yet though.

edit: Honestly though. I personally think hit, damage, ac and dr should also scale in the same way since it creates to many break points and scales rather poorly in its current iteration. One side being scaled by level with its counterpart being static just makes one weak at start and become overpowered at the end. But the fix would be to different from PnP ruleset to be accepted here.