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Seliana
03-27-2010, 06:31 PM
DDO is unbalanced by many players opinions, and Turbine has been attempting to fix it for years now. I feel that the ideal solution to resolving this balance lies within this post.

What if Turbine just set the games rules, gear, feats, HP, SP, and everything else back to Standard D&D 3.5?

Its a obviously time consuming fix. This power creep that exists in game could be instantly resolved with such a radical change. If Turbine simply deleted all gear from the game that did not exist in the 3.5 DMG, all feats and abilities not in the 3.5 PHB, and all monster abilities and stats not in the 3.5 MM then we really could have a balanced game once again. That would mean no more crazy Kopeshes, no more Docent of Defiance, no more Greensteel, no Epic Sword of Shadows or Icy Raiments or Mysterious Baubles or Levviks shields. By removing all this unbalanced invented gear, abilities, and enhancements there becomes no more need to put in Turbines player controlling systems such as "The Crucible of Shavarath" or "Grazing hits" or "Dungeon Alert". This doesn't mean Turbine needs to wipe the character database either as they already have the system in place to allow players to re-level their characters back up and not lose out on all their hard work as well as respec in the confines of a resolved d20 system.

Turbine decided to leave the book rules behind and go off on this tangent of Raiding gear with 85+ AC builds with 600+ hp and firewalls dealing 150+ damage a second a long time ago. The point is that Turbine has been struggling to re-balance that decision for 4 years now and its obviously not working as evidenced by posts like this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=237208). In addition the vast majority of new players now trying out the game are ones who likely played the paper and pen version in the past and felt DDO would be the same. These specialized systems are only confusing for these new players which drives them to quit the game once they try it out and become frustrated. Their knowledge of how the d20 system works becomes a joke when new players are running around making 40 ac builds and believing that its an amazing and functional AC at the end of the game.

This return to the base d20 rules would enable Turbine to put systems in place that they have denied players for years because of balance reasons. Imagine a game where Bow Attack speed was balanced with melee, where Sorcerers could Fly and Teleport inside dungeons, Paladins would have followers from Leadership, Fighters could charge into battle on Horseback, Rangers could Hide-in-Plain-Sight, Rogues could craft Deadly Poisons or Place Traps, Wizards could craft powerful magical artifacts, and Clerics could call upon Divine Angels for aid? This would be a game where all character types were fun and balanced to play.

A game that felt like D&D once again...

hydra_ex
03-27-2010, 06:39 PM
Disagree completely. Although the game took a turn for the worse, the entire D&D system was meant to be abused. Also, many D&D mechanics don't work well as a computer game, even less so in a non-turn based one.

Your "perfect" scenario sounds fun, but doesn't work at all in DDO. If bow attack speed were equal to melee, would there be much point in meleeing at all? A team of rangers, with their modest healing capabilities, could take out most quests.

If sorcerers could fly and teleport, how many quests would be broken.? In D&D 3.5, these two spells can cause a lot of harm. If you think that DA and crucible of shavarath are bad, wouldn't you agree that large areas of antimagic are equally bad?

Paladins with followers might be fun; but does it require a return to the D&D system to be done?

Same thing for horses; the reason why they're not in game is because they restrict movement in many quests, and the models would be very time consuming.

Any class can hide in plain sight. Rules for cover do not apply. They are highly mutable rules, so DDO managed to simulate HIPS and cover in a very novel and adequate way.

etc.

In short, your proposed solution is just a problem. I suggest you get a pnp group together.

valorik
03-27-2010, 06:39 PM
is this a joke?

Ghoste
03-27-2010, 06:40 PM
Wouldn't make for much of an MMO. For one thing, they'd have to give every single last quest in the game a huge makeover. Take a look over 3.5 encounter rules, and figure out where it allows a DM to create encounters of 200+ monsters and only one opportunity to rest. And that's just scrapping the surface of how this would completely scrap the whole game and put us back to day 1.

Anderei
03-27-2010, 06:42 PM
Nerf everything and have thousands of paying players going mad? Not gonna to happen.

Also when calling for DnD purity, why just target overpowering gear? Might argue that spellpoints werent a great idea, enhancements not needed, remove ress shrines and do it perma death.

DDO is by design only 50% DnD, the other 50% is MMO.

Oh yes, and dont play your role convincing and have a GM/DM punish you.

Veriden
03-28-2010, 01:24 AM
The only thing I disagree with is the method here, its not a bad idea.

But it would be easier to just make a whole new game this way to eliminate the bs gear. The new game would not get much play only because no one has the wit or patience to tolerate turn based proper dnd. Aside from 'we few'

Let us have our pick of 9 alignments neutral and good guys aren't the only people who fight baddies, evil fights evil also for christmas' sake.

more or less, /signed.

GeneralDiomedes
03-28-2010, 01:45 AM
You think PnP is balanced? Lol.

xtchizobr
03-28-2010, 01:46 AM
Wouldn't make for much of an MMO. For one thing, they'd have to give every single last quest in the game a huge makeover. Take a look over 3.5 encounter rules, and figure out where it allows a DM to create encounters of 200+ monsters and only one opportunity to rest. And that's just scrapping the surface of how this would completely scrap the whole game and put us back to day 1.

not to mention that if i even get a whiff of true vancian spellcasting, i'd never even think of playing the game again.

although, the power inflation is getting a little bad, it's not the source of imbalance.

Marr0w1
03-28-2010, 02:24 AM
I dont think this game is going to experience power creep the way other MMO's (remaining nameless) are known for.

They went to the f2p model, and raised the cap to the natural cap of 20 for various reasons (probably because a higher level cap would sound more appealing to non-DnD players, who knows)

They then brought in Epic content to give people something to do at lvl20 when their toons were maxed out, without requiring turbine to make too many new chains from scratch to challenge endgame players.

Now if you look at up-and-coming additions to the game, we have new races, guild housing, a slew of new quests at various levels, and no sign they plan on increasing the cap, or adding in a new tier of raid/crafting gear.

Thus I am satisfied that for at least the next few years the gameplay will remain relatively static, as if endgame were an epic module, just balanced to account for the fact that you fight hundreds of enemies in quests, not just tens, and obviously faster paced.

Veriden
03-28-2010, 06:13 AM
You think PnP is balanced? Lol.

More balanced then this game yes, and pnp is perfectly balanced so long as you don't have power gamers trying to break the game. The point of a game is to appriciate the challenge not undermine it's structure by being a rules lawyer and using every loop hole in the book that you could free OJ simpson from prison with.

Cylinwolf
03-28-2010, 11:53 AM
More balanced then this game yes, and pnp is perfectly balanced so long as you don't have power gamers trying to break the game.

Oh, ahem, excuse me for a moment.

...

...

...

Okay, I'm done rolling out of my chair from laughter.

Symar-FangofLloth
03-28-2010, 12:04 PM
pnp is perfectly balanced so long as you don't have power gamers trying to break the game.

When don't you have those?


Yes, teleport inside dungeons...
Well it just so happens I've run this dungeon before, so I know the layout, so I Dimension Door my party past all the locked doors and exactly where I want to go.
So much for the dungeon.

Veriden
03-28-2010, 02:57 PM
Apparently maturity is not something either of you have ever experienced. Its a ROLE PLAYING not a 'min max everything' game.

Cylinwolf
03-28-2010, 03:43 PM
Apparently maturity is not something either of you have ever experienced. Its a ROLE PLAYING not a 'min max everything' game.

Okay, so here's the deal. You can spend over 60 hours of gametime building up to an epic and monumental clash in a high-level game of the players party versus a tyrannical Marilith. You've been preparing for this moment for a long time.

Your fighter charges in and the marilith retaliates with: Primary longsword +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/19-20) and 5 longswords +25 melee (2d6+4/19-20) and tail slap +22 melee (4d6+4); or 6 slams +24 melee (1d8+9) and tail slap +22 melee (4d6+4).

Your fighter is dead, and your caster disintegrates her from a safe distance.

How do you build epic storytelling around the fact that everyone but the casters in your party is freakin' useless at the end of the game?

Symar-FangofLloth
03-28-2010, 03:53 PM
Its a ROLE PLAYING not a 'min max everything' game.

If you're talking about tabletop, I agree to an extent. (Although, even some of the most RP-focused gamers I've played with were extreme min-maxers as well.) Even a gimped character can perform in tabletop, because the DM can tailor things to your character (or just kill them and have you roll a better one, depending).

If you're talking about DDO, I disagree. The amount of RPers here compared to the amount of min-maxers is minute. Even were the ruleset and game mechanics to be changed more in line with tabletop rules, people here would still extreme min-max. It's inevitable.

xtchizobr
03-28-2010, 04:04 PM
Okay, so here's the deal. You can spend over 60 hours of gametime building up to an epic and monumental clash in a high-level game of the players party versus a tyrannical Marilith. You've been preparing for this moment for a long time.

Your fighter charges in and the marilith retaliates with: Primary longsword +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/19-20) and 5 longswords +25 melee (2d6+4/19-20) and tail slap +22 melee (4d6+4); or 6 slams +24 melee (1d8+9) and tail slap +22 melee (4d6+4).

Your fighter is dead, and your caster disintegrates her from a safe distance.

How do you build epic storytelling around the fact that everyone but the casters in your party is freakin' useless at the end of the game?

i guess you haven't played "end game" where casters can do nothing but sit on their ugly-robed butts and watch the barbarians do all the work with the clerics trying to keep up?

as far as pnp goes, might i recommend you get a new DM?

the marilith got smart and cast a few defensive buffs of her own. a spell turning or three would just about do the trick for a lot of stuff a wizard might pull, and combined with her spell resistance and reflex save, she's rather well protected against cheap-shots from a brute-force sorc, and i really doubt a disintegrate would do the trick. she's wealthy enough to have bought a lot more Heal scrolls than your wizard has slots to cast disintegrate from -- assuming she doesn't teleport to him and dice him up first! she's smart enough to do so. your fighter is probably the last person she goes for if she knows where other players are.

might i recommend the party summon some powerful creatures to their aid? or lay a trap? or cast some defensive spells? or perform a divination that might reveal an easier way to deal with such a powerful foe? or use tactics to keep people alive, like a bait-and-switch? or perhaps negotiate with other powerful extraplanar creatures and be summoned to their aid? perhaps a simple trick like Fly would confound her for long enough to gain an edge? or, if you really must have the wizard save the day, everyone donate some gold so he can create a ritual that will irrevocably imprison her?

if the creature can one-round your fighter, you're just stupid for sending him toe-to-toe with her; it's not necessarily because she's unstoppable or unbalanced.

or, oh wait, what was i thinking -- why would a genius, mighty tyrant marilith be personally facing the party in one-on-twelve combat?!

Vormaerin
03-28-2010, 05:05 PM
Apparently maturity is not something either of you have ever experienced. Its a ROLE PLAYING not a 'min max everything' game.

You might want to discuss that with WotC, because if you look at the products they put out and the features they had in the 3.5 era... well, you wouldn't get that impression. Elite Opponents? The optimization forum on their website? Maybe you think designing 2 headed half green dragon stirges (a WotC featured mob on their website a while back) is an RP thing, but I tend to put that in the powergamer school of play

Cylinwolf
03-28-2010, 06:47 PM
i guess you haven't played "end game" where casters can do nothing but sit on their ugly-robed butts and watch the barbarians do all the work with the clerics trying to keep up?

as far as pnp goes, might i recommend you get a new DM?

the marilith got smart and cast a few defensive buffs of her own. a spell turning or three would just about do the trick for a lot of stuff a wizard might pull, and combined with her spell resistance and reflex save, she's rather well protected against cheap-shots from a brute-force sorc, and i really doubt a disintegrate would do the trick. she's wealthy enough to have bought a lot more Heal scrolls than your wizard has slots to cast disintegrate from -- assuming she doesn't teleport to him and dice him up first! she's smart enough to do so. your fighter is probably the last person she goes for if she knows where other players are.

might i recommend the party summon some powerful creatures to their aid? or lay a trap? or cast some defensive spells? or perform a divination that might reveal an easier way to deal with such a powerful foe? or use tactics to keep people alive, like a bait-and-switch? or perhaps negotiate with other powerful extraplanar creatures and be summoned to their aid? perhaps a simple trick like Fly would confound her for long enough to gain an edge? or, if you really must have the wizard save the day, everyone donate some gold so he can create a ritual that will irrevocably imprison her?

if the creature can one-round your fighter, you're just stupid for sending him toe-to-toe with her; it's not necessarily because she's unstoppable or unbalanced.

or, oh wait, what was i thinking -- why would a genius, mighty tyrant marilith be personally facing the party in one-on-twelve combat?!

In that entire post, did you ever stop to realize that the fighter was still doing nothing and was apparently useless enough to be at the absolute bottom of the marilith's attack chain?

And the entire bolded paragraph is solutions for other members of the party (generally, I suppose the fighter could be used for bait but no worse than a tag-along fodder NPC could) to take care of the marilith, but sad Mr. Fighter is still sitting on his ass not doing anything.

I think you missed the point. It wasn't that "casters kill everything first," it's that "fighters don't kill anything."

ssgcmwatson
03-28-2010, 09:45 PM
perhaps someone should start a company, and get the licensing/programming skills to make an mmo version of baldur's gate / icewind dale. Still couldn't fly, but perhaps you'd have a good target clientele - all those who are unhappy with DDO's interpretation of DnD.

DoctorWhofan
03-28-2010, 10:14 PM
~snip!~

Paladins with followers might be fun; but does it require a return to the D&D system to be done?

.

On the Pallys, LotRO Captains has a "follower" type pet. Captains also feel alot more Paladinish than DDO's. My Opinion. However, I can see getting the Leadership feat and getting a follower to symbolize that. For simplist sakes they can, at the least, be like our summons. Enhancements can give you a "flavour" of the Pally's minion, aka the class. I'd rather be like LotRO/hirelings but not sure how they could do that without taking up a party slot.

At least it would be a start.

DoctorWhofan
03-28-2010, 10:15 PM
And yeah.

/not signed. This is BASED on DnD but DnD would not work in a computergame/MMO. I like the fact it is in the SPIRIT of DnD without BEING DnD.


Does that make sense?

Angelus_dead
03-28-2010, 10:38 PM
What if Turbine just set the games rules, gear, feats, HP, SP, and everything else back to Standard D&D 3.5?
To do that would remove the balance that does exist. Newsflash: DDO is indescribably closer to balanced than D&D 3.5 has ever been.



Imagine a game where Bow Attack speed was balanced with melee, where Sorcerers could Fly and Teleport inside dungeons, Paladins would have followers from Leadership, Fighters could charge into battle on Horseback, Rangers could Hide-in-Plain-Sight, Rogues could craft Deadly Poisons or Place Traps, Wizards could craft powerful magical artifacts, and Clerics could call upon Divine Angels for aid? This would be a game where all character types were fun and balanced to play.
Flat out hilarious. You list all those things and then call it "balanced"!

fatherpirate
03-29-2010, 09:29 AM
let us think about this a second....3.5 rules

so eliminate 40% of the game

to include all enhancements, warforges
no spell points, gotta memorize spells
3 kobalds will kill a noob lvl 1 fighter every time so no do-able soloing..ok maybe 5 at once

friendly fire- fireball into the mob kills the party

ok- sure.............and you think they will add the missing stuff?


lets be truthful...a live DM keeps DnD PnP playable...without one, it isn't

SquelchHU
03-29-2010, 09:41 AM
Bad idea.

Here's what you want: Go through the dungeon with undergeared characters, most of which are useless due to various balance flaws inherent in 3.5. Kill about... maybe 2 dozen enemies, instantly level up. Do this about 19 more times, something that would take about... an hour in a real time environment and level cap. Proceed to be done with the game before the free trial is even up, and without anything left interesting to do leave.

Doesn't sound interesting? That's because it isn't. It works in PnP because there's more than a level treadmill there. The same is not true of video games.


Okay, so here's the deal. You can spend over 60 hours of gametime building up to an epic and monumental clash in a high-level game of the players party versus a tyrannical Marilith. You've been preparing for this moment for a long time.

Your fighter charges in and the marilith retaliates with: Primary longsword +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/19-20) and 5 longswords +25 melee (2d6+4/19-20) and tail slap +22 melee (4d6+4); or 6 slams +24 melee (1d8+9) and tail slap +22 melee (4d6+4).

Your fighter is dead, and your caster disintegrates her from a safe distance.

How do you build epic storytelling around the fact that everyone but the casters in your party is freakin' useless at the end of the game?

Ok, while you are absolutely on the right track conceptually, if your Fighter is so gimpy as to be killed by a Marilith's melee attacks (and look at those stats, they're pathetic for the level) then that is more a problem with that particular Fighter than with Fighters as a whole. Of course the caster isn't much better if he is using Disintegrate.


i guess you haven't played "end game" where casters can do nothing but sit on their ugly-robed butts and watch the barbarians do all the work with the clerics trying to keep up?

In DDO? Absolutely. But the OPer is talking about making it more 3.5 like... which does indeed mean the non casters are mooks, by RAW.


as far as pnp goes, might i recommend you get a new DM?

the marilith got smart and cast a few defensive buffs of her own. a spell turning or three would just about do the trick for a lot of stuff a wizard might pull, and combined with her spell resistance and reflex save, she's rather well protected against cheap-shots from a brute-force sorc, and i really doubt a disintegrate would do the trick. she's wealthy enough to have bought a lot more Heal scrolls than your wizard has slots to cast disintegrate from -- assuming she doesn't teleport to him and dice him up first! she's smart enough to do so. your fighter is probably the last person she goes for if she knows where other players are.

With what spellcasting ability? She can do it with UMD (90% to Heal scroll, 80% to Spell Turning) but that's about it. And granted, that is probably enough. But really, her being able to heal HP damage just screws the Fighter. The Wizard doesn't care, he's not going after HP. Also, spell resistance is a joke.

What you actually do is cast Fly. She can't fly, so her options are to cast Blade Barrier for trivial damage or... run away. So you just show up flying and kill her before she gets a turn. Yawn.

Aspenor
03-29-2010, 09:49 AM
DDO is unbalanced by many players opinions, and Turbine has been attempting to fix it for years now. I feel that the ideal solution to resolving this balance lies within this post.

What if Turbine just set the games rules, gear, feats, HP, SP, and everything else back to Standard D&D 3.5?
The game would be completely broken, and nobody would bother playing anything except wizards, sorcerers, and clerics.


Its a obviously time consuming fix. This power creep that exists in game could be instantly resolved with such a radical change. If Turbine simply deleted all gear from the game that did not exist in the 3.5 DMG, all feats and abilities not in the 3.5 PHB, and all monster abilities and stats not in the 3.5 MM then we really could have a balanced game once again. That would mean no more crazy Kopeshes, no more Docent of Defiance, no more Greensteel, no Epic Sword of Shadows or Icy Raiments or Mysterious Baubles or Levviks shields. By removing all this unbalanced invented gear, abilities, and enhancements there becomes no more need to put in Turbines player controlling systems such as "The Crucible of Shavarath" or "Grazing hits" or "Dungeon Alert". This doesn't mean Turbine needs to wipe the character database either as they already have the system in place to allow players to re-level their characters back up and not lose out on all their hard work as well as respec in the confines of a resolved d20 system.
Green Steel weapon designs, and also the Epic Sword of Shadows, would actually be GOOD ideas to incorporate in 3.5 PnP. Without an epic level artifact weapon, a fighter may as well not exist.


Turbine decided to leave the book rules behind and go off on this tangent of Raiding gear with 85+ AC builds with 600+ hp and firewalls dealing 150+ damage a second a long time ago. The point is that Turbine has been struggling to re-balance that decision for 4 years now and its obviously not working as evidenced by posts like this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=237208). In addition the vast majority of new players now trying out the game are ones who likely played the paper and pen version in the past and felt DDO would be the same. These specialized systems are only confusing for these new players which drives them to quit the game once they try it out and become frustrated. Their knowledge of how the d20 system works becomes a joke when new players are running around making 40 ac builds and believing that its an amazing and functional AC at the end of the game.
You actually think there is a functional AC at end-game of PnP? There isn't, not without completely rewriting the rules. A level 20 fighter would need +10 full plate of Heavy Fortification, and some other "epic" items to obtain a reasonable functional armor class. Things like deflection bonuses up to +8, natural armor bonuses up to +8, etc. Using a shield is not an option (well, it is I suppose if you like sucking really, really bad).

As far as epic goes, for epic levels these caps need to be increased yet again. +20 Full Plate of Heavy Forification, +15 deflection bonuses, +15 natural armor bonuses, etc.


This return to the base d20 rules would enable Turbine to put systems in place that they have denied players for years because of balance reasons. Imagine a game where Bow Attack speed was balanced with melee, where Sorcerers could Fly and Teleport inside dungeons, Paladins would have followers from Leadership, Fighters could charge into battle on Horseback, Rangers could Hide-in-Plain-Sight, Rogues could craft Deadly Poisons or Place Traps, Wizards could craft powerful magical artifacts, and Clerics could call upon Divine Angels for aid? This would be a game where all character types were fun and balanced to play.

A game that felt like D&D once again...

This would not fix anything, in fact it would break it all.

SquelchHU
03-29-2010, 09:55 AM
The game would be completely broken, and nobody would bother playing anything except wizards, sorcerers, favored souls, and clerics.

Fixed. Druids too if they were in. And as long as I'm making minor corrections, epic SoS would actually be a very weak weapon in PnP, as its effectiveness stipulates on critical hits.

With that said, 'You must spread some rep around before giving it to Aspenor again'.

Zuldar
03-29-2010, 10:00 AM
At this point it's impractical to stop the power creep. It's spread to every facet of the game, and it's not going to go away without an epic investiture of effort. A better solution would be to equalize the playing field somewhat. Randomly generated items need to be improved to the point where they are just below greensteel. I'd recommend removing the prefix/suffix rule and allowing them to have more then two abilities, though still restricted by ml. At least if the power curve was normalized it'd be easier to plan for.

werk
03-29-2010, 10:00 AM
Apparently maturity is not something either of you have ever experienced. Its a ROLE PLAYING not a 'min max everything' game.

DDO is wrong-bad fun?




Uh oh guys, we're doing it wrong...

Aspenor
03-29-2010, 10:02 AM
Fixed. Druids too if they were in. And as long as I'm making minor corrections, epic SoS would actually be a very weak weapon in PnP, as its effectiveness stipulates on critical hits.

With that said, 'You must spread some rep around before giving it to Aspenor again'.

Perhaps true on the favored souls, but definitely true in the case of the druid.

Yes, the SoS would be fairly weak, but at least it'd be a step in the right direction.

I'm not totally convinced on the favored souls, but I suppose that since wealth in DDO is effectively infinite they could work. The fact that they have casting that is MAD is the key, to me. They could either completely gimp their offensive spellcasting and only be healers (and we know how well that works), or they could be better off as a cleric (same number of spells, no memorization).

SquelchHU
03-29-2010, 10:35 AM
Perhaps true on the favored souls, but definitely true in the case of the druid.

Yes, the SoS would be fairly weak, but at least it'd be a step in the right direction.

I'm not totally convinced on the favored souls, but I suppose that since wealth in DDO is effectively infinite they could work. The fact that they have casting that is MAD is the key, to me. They could either completely gimp their offensive spellcasting and only be healers (and we know how well that works), or they could be better off as a cleric (same number of spells, no memorization).

Yeah, they'd be weaker. But the bar for 'good enough' is a bit lower than CoDzilla and Wizards, while still being higher than most of the other stuff. Sorcerers would also just be a gimp Wizard, but still good enough to work if you're ok with being 'like x, but worse'.

What I want to know is what is with all these people that think 3.5 style balance is a good idea and try to apply it even out of context, such as to a video game like DDO? If this were the PnP boards it would be different, but since it isn't the only thing to say is 'Do not make the game less balanced by doing that'.

Cyr
03-29-2010, 02:47 PM
Hey I'm all for wide ranging changes to the ruleset...

Hold on no I'm not.

/not signed

Schwarzie
03-29-2010, 04:49 PM
DDO at PnP Rules...

PvP arena. Lv20 Fighter charges Wizard. Wizard casts Disjunction. Barb starts crying because all his magic items are now permantely useless. While the Barb sobs the Wizard says: Go get a willsave crybaby.

Angelus_dead
03-29-2010, 04:57 PM
The game would be completely broken, and nobody would bother playing anything except wizards, sorcerers, and clerics.
By the D&D 3.5 rules a Sorcerer is seriously the weaker caster, as he can't use Quicken, giving him 50% the spellcasting speed of Wizard or Cleric.


I'm not totally convinced on the favored souls, but I suppose that since wealth in DDO is effectively infinite they could work.
If hypothetically the D&D 3.5 rules were in use, then the rules about wealth-per-level and object persistence would also be there.

donfilibuster
03-29-2010, 06:36 PM
You just can't pick from all sources, it'd be akin to mixing swords with gunpowder.
DDO's eberron is just a high magic setting, in those you get to do things off the usual scale simply out of raw power.
A down to earth d&d setting could still be scaled to multiplayer levels with enough creativity.
Unfortunately, d&d expert isn't an avaliable job, you need to be a software engineer to make it happen.

Schwarzie
03-30-2010, 05:23 AM
By the D&D 3.5 rules a Sorcerer is seriously the weaker caster, as he can't use Quicken, giving him 50% the spellcasting speed of Wizard or Cleric.

Not only that, in PnP are far far more usefull spells, so that the limited choice is a serious drawback (not like here in DDO with maybe 3 or 4 good spells per level)

SquelchHU
03-30-2010, 06:55 AM
You just can't pick from all sources, it'd be akin to mixing swords with gunpowder.
DDO's eberron is just a high magic setting, in those you get to do things off the usual scale simply out of raw power.
A down to earth d&d setting could still be scaled to multiplayer levels with enough creativity.
Unfortunately, d&d expert isn't an avaliable job, you need to be a software engineer to make it happen.

And if you don't use a high magic setting guess who is disadvantaged more, making it an even worse idea?

moonglum
03-30-2010, 11:32 AM
Disagree completely. Although the game took a turn for the worse, the entire D&D system was meant to be abused. Also, many D&D mechanics don't work well as a computer game, even less so in a non-turn based one.

Your "perfect" scenario sounds fun, but doesn't work at all in DDO. If bow attack speed were equal to melee, would there be much point in meleeing at all? A team of rangers, with their modest healing capabilities, could take out most quests.

If sorcerers could fly and teleport, how many quests would be broken.? In D&D 3.5, these two spells can cause a lot of harm. If you think that DA and crucible of shavarath are bad, wouldn't you agree that large areas of antimagic are equally bad?

Paladins with followers might be fun; but does it require a return to the D&D system to be done?

Same thing for horses; the reason why they're not in game is because they restrict movement in many quests, and the models would be very time consuming.

Any class can hide in plain sight. Rules for cover do not apply. They are highly mutable rules, so DDO managed to simulate HIPS and cover in a very novel and adequate way.

etc.

In short, your proposed solution is just a problem. I suggest you get a pnp group together.


Disagree on horses in part. Mounts could work for explorer areas or big areas..not to mention using them in the city.

moonglum
03-30-2010, 11:34 AM
Anyone care to weigh in on the new PnP rules . Could there be a fit if DDO converted to the new Pnp rules?

Aspenor
03-30-2010, 11:44 AM
Anyone care to weigh in on the new PnP rules . Could there be a fit if DDO converted to the new Pnp rules?

Not really.

donfilibuster
03-30-2010, 01:21 PM
And if you don't use a high magic setting guess who is disadvantaged more, making it an even worse idea?

Not the mages, in a low magic setting whoever can cast arcane magic is king.

fatherpirate
03-31-2010, 09:48 PM
well, there is one thing they could do...on the epic powergamers, to keep them having fun
without turning the game into..er..wow.

give ALL dungeons * except Korthos * a SCALED epic setting.

If a epic solo or group goes in on it, the game looks at the group...scales the encounters
to the solo/group. Would need tweaking of course.

The the powergamers would have plenty to do.

Veriden
04-01-2010, 03:25 PM
let us think about this a second....3.5 rules

so eliminate 40% of the game

to include all enhancements, warforges
no spell points, gotta memorize spells
3 kobalds will kill a noob lvl 1 fighter every time so no do-able soloing..ok maybe 5 at once

friendly fire- fireball into the mob kills the party

ok- sure.............and you think they will add the missing stuff?


lets be truthful...a live DM keeps DnD PnP playable...without one, it isn't

Warforged characters DO exist in pnp, check the monster manual 2, there is a Spell point alternate rule in the unearthed arcana, only paladins, rangers, and clerics and wizards memorize their spells but have the freedom to change them after resting/meditating. A noob would die against 3 to 5 kobolds for not making intelligent descions in both pnp and ddo.

Friendly fire is what makes playing a mage challenging. If you have a stupid caster you can count your party in either pnp or ddo dead anyways, or at least a dead caster.

Aschbart
04-02-2010, 12:53 PM
There's something inherently wrong with the entire system when the gap between optimized and slightly subpar builds at end game level widens so much it is a case of 'always hit' or 'always miss'. There are way to many *additions* and *tweaks* Turbine added in DDO that add up to im balance the game beyond hope of repairing. Therefore, a radical overhaul is required before Turbine can even think about introducing epic levels.

That said, while returning to base 3.5 rules would be *a* solution, it wouldn't be a good one. It would mean severely cutting down current characters' abilities to the point of breaking most existing builds. Of course, monster abilities would be toned down back to normal levels as well, but I would be surprised if the forums wouldn't be swamped with angry player's postings, and many leaving the game.

IMHO the main problem with the current game is that a mere d20 is unsuited to cover the sheer amount of stacking bonuses available to everyone by level 10 and beyond. Moreover, Turbine chose to reduce the span of attack bonuses in the attack chain from normally 15 (BAB 20/15/10/5) to only 10 (20/20/25/30), while at the same time introducing sources of further bonuses that never were part of D&D and thus required to boost monster ACs and abilities through the roof. What we now have is a system of uber-monsters that are theoretically strong enough to wipe a level 40 PnP style group of adventurers, but can be easily defeated by a sole level 15 DDO toon who stacks all the right enhancements, abilities and gear. Conversely, anyone who does not deliberately stack all these bonuses will stand no chance against these critters even at level 20.

The road Turbine is now on will lead to a MMO that has only place for at most a dozen or so cookie cutter builds, with no place left for experimentation and fun builds. DDO would lose the most interesting aspect of this game - it's flexibility! Maybe this will appease a lot of players, but TBH, if I wanted such a game, there are better ones already - and many will think so as well. Therefore, if Turbine wants to increase their player base, or at the very least keep the existing ones, they absolutely need to do something about this ever-widening gap!

Solution:
Is there one? Probably a thorough solution would require many small changes that add up to rectify the balance. Such as decreasing the number of stacking bonuses, converting existing attack bonuses to damage bonuses (although I fear that might introduce other issues), introducing level-dependend caps to ability scores and other properties of a character, widening the attack chain at least back to the original 15 point span, or maybe beyond that - and while you're at it anchor the highest attack bonus to the BAB, not the lowest (that by itself required increasing monster ACs by at least 10 - unneccessarily!), e. g. change 20/20/25/30 to sth like 5/10/15/20 (note this is the same attack chain as in PnP, but the lowest attack comes first, so the original intent of forcing characters to keep standing instead of running around in circles will still be served).

With a bit of thinking I (and probably others as well) can think of more things that could help rebalancing the end game without having to fully change the system back to 3.5

Angelus_dead
04-02-2010, 04:22 PM
There are way to many *additions* and *tweaks* Turbine added in DDO that add up to im balance the game beyond hope of repairing.
That's totally wrong. Turbine's alterations had the overall effect of introducing balance to a game that had none.


That said, while returning to base 3.5 rules would be *a* solution, it wouldn't be a good one.
No. Going to 3.5 rules would worsen the problem in every way, which means it can't be called a "solution" at all.

Aschbart
04-02-2010, 07:55 PM
That's totally wrong. Turbine's alterations had the overall effect of introducing balance to a game that had none.
Now you got me completely baffled - this is the first time I hear someone make such a statement. How do tons of additional sources of bonuses to just about every property of a character help balance a game? It just creates more avenues to create uber builds that are so far and away from the 'paths' Turbine provides for new players that these path characters will contribute absolutely nothing in a fight that the uber builds will just breeze through. If Turbine cannot even come up with character paths that create halfway useful characters, how then is the game balanced?

Think of the acrobat in market, between the pawns. He's balancing on the tip of his staff. That is balancing. A feeble balance, easily disrupted, but still balancing. If that is how you view the D&D PnP rules, then what Turbine did to 'improve balancing' is send more people to climb on the acrobat and create a nice human pyramid. Nice to behold, certainly, but *more* balanced? I don't think so.

If you are still convinced what Turbine did made the game more balanced, what do you base this statement on?


No. Going to 3.5 rules would worsen the problem in every way, which means it can't be called a "solution" at all.

You might be mixing up the changes Turbine introduced to make the DnD rules work in a real time MMO environment with those they added to liven up the game (or whatever their reasons were). There's no reason whatsoever for instance to introduce skill bonus items beyond those available in PnP (usually +2 for most skills, with notable exceptions for certain named magical items, going up to +5 IIRC). Also there's no reason to create various different sources of skill bonuses that all stack (halfling companion, skill boost, skill enhancement) in addition to those that are already in place and do exist in PnP (skill ranks, certain spells, Inspire competence, masterwork items)

Have you ever considered what it takes to create a rogue who can actually beat the epic level traps and locks? Such a character would be gimped in every other way, a true one-trick-pony. And why? Because there are so many enhancements and special abilities to pick up, that there's very little left to put in other abilities. And since stuff like survivability and DPS can and must be boosted in much the same way as skills, not being able to contribute a decent amount of build points here basically means fail! Falling back to the elements already available in PnP would greatly reduce the amount of resources you even can invest, and thus leaves a much bigger percentage of build resources for other stuff.

Not that I'm saying that would be the solution, I quite clearly stated it is not.

Seneca_Windforge
04-03-2010, 02:31 PM
Now you got me completely baffled - this is the first time I hear someone make such a statement. How do tons of additional sources of bonuses to just about every property of a character help balance a game? It just creates more avenues to create uber builds that are so far and away from the 'paths' Turbine provides for new players that these path characters will contribute absolutely nothing in a fight that the uber builds will just breeze through. If Turbine cannot even come up with character paths that create halfway useful characters, how then is the game balanced?

Think of the acrobat in market, between the pawns. He's balancing on the tip of his staff. That is balancing. A feeble balance, easily disrupted, but still balancing. If that is how you view the D&D PnP rules, then what Turbine did to 'improve balancing' is send more people to climb on the acrobat and create a nice human pyramid. Nice to behold, certainly, but *more* balanced? I don't think so.

If you are still convinced what Turbine did made the game more balanced, what do you base this statement on?



You might be mixing up the changes Turbine introduced to make the DnD rules work in a real time MMO environment with those they added to liven up the game (or whatever their reasons were). There's no reason whatsoever for instance to introduce skill bonus items beyond those available in PnP (usually +2 for most skills, with notable exceptions for certain named magical items, going up to +5 IIRC). Also there's no reason to create various different sources of skill bonuses that all stack (halfling companion, skill boost, skill enhancement) in addition to those that are already in place and do exist in PnP (skill ranks, certain spells, Inspire competence, masterwork items)

Have you ever considered what it takes to create a rogue who can actually beat the epic level traps and locks? Such a character would be gimped in every other way, a true one-trick-pony. And why? Because there are so many enhancements and special abilities to pick up, that there's very little left to put in other abilities. And since stuff like survivability and DPS can and must be boosted in much the same way as skills, not being able to contribute a decent amount of build points here basically means fail! Falling back to the elements already available in PnP would greatly reduce the amount of resources you even can invest, and thus leaves a much bigger percentage of build resources for other stuff.

Not that I'm saying that would be the solution, I quite clearly stated it is not.

Actually, some of the skill bonuses in the 3.5 DMG came in scaling bonuses - +5, +10, +15. And I'm sure that you could use the create-your-own magic items rules to make bigger Cloaks of Elvenkind or what have you.

I do think that greensteel is probably overpowered and that the gap between casual and powergamer is too wide, and steps need to be taken to close it. But "return to strict 3.5" isn't the answer, and it's not going to happen.

Angelus_dead
04-03-2010, 03:47 PM
If you are still convinced what Turbine did made the game more balanced, what do you base this statement on?
It is very obvious if you take a look at what happens in DDO. For example, suppose that a group of DDO players feel like going out to kill a Pit Fiend. What classes might they take to help them?

Observation shows that in DDO, Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, Fighters, Rogues, Bards, and Monks often come. But in D&D you'd be foolish to take anyone that isn't a Cleric or Wizard. A Paladin or Barbarian would be a joke.

Aschbart
04-05-2010, 03:16 PM
It is very obvious if you take a look at what happens in DDO. For example, suppose that a group of DDO players feel like going out to kill a Pit Fiend. What classes might they take to help them?

Observation shows that in DDO, Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, Fighters, Rogues, Bards, and Monks often come. But in D&D you'd be foolish to take anyone that isn't a Cleric or Wizard. A Paladin or Barbarian would be a joke.

Any character can contribute in any encounter in PnP. Some might not deal a lot of damage, but when you compare to DDO, there a suboptimal build might not be able to hit at all (except on a 20). *This* is something that does not usually happen in PnP.

Aschbart
04-05-2010, 03:28 PM
Actually, some of the skill bonuses in the 3.5 DMG came in scaling bonuses - +5, +10, +15. And I'm sure that you could use the create-your-own magic items rules to make bigger Cloaks of Elvenkind or what have you.
You can hardly equate house rules with PnP 3.5 rules? There are no core rules for the creation of self-made bonus items, so you could hardly consider such items core.

Regarding +items, I checked the SRD and found +10 versions of rings of climbing, jumping, and swimming - that is all. Did I miss any? I admit I didn't recall these +10 items, only the +5 versions.

Mockduck
04-05-2010, 03:37 PM
When's the last time you took out 200+ baddies in a 45 minute pen and paper session? This is a video game based on D&D, I think D&D Insider is more what the OP is looking for. I'd love to see what would happen if an MMO went 100% accurate on 3.5 rules...anyone got $50 million they feel like spending without any likelihood of return? :)

I don't mean to sound flippant, there's a lot of balancing that could/should be done in DDO. But it's far more complex than just copying the paper version of the game over. I think one of DDO's main strengths is getting the "feel" of pen and paper right while adapting the rule set to an active combat MMO.

The only thing I'd add to this is that the 3.5 rule system would work better with a turn-based RPG system. If you've played Dungeons and Dragons Tactics for the PSP, you'll know they take the 3.5 rules VERY seriously, with only a few changes to what they have. It's an...okay...game, but I've spent way more hours playing DDO.

sigtrent
04-05-2010, 03:49 PM
More balanced then this game yes, and pnp is perfectly balanced so long as you don't have power gamers trying to break the game. The point of a game is to appriciate the challenge not undermine it's structure by being a rules lawyer and using every loop hole in the book that you could free OJ simpson from prison with.

Yes, well if you could mind control all the players that would be great, but since you can, rules lawyering and munchkin land are things you have to account for when you make a game.

Aschbart
04-06-2010, 05:36 PM
When's the last time you took out 200+ baddies in a 45 minute pen and paper session? This is a video game based on D&D, I think D&D Insider is more what the OP is looking for. I'd love to see what would happen if an MMO went 100% accurate on 3.5 rules...anyone got $50 million they feel like spending without any likelihood of return? :)
I say it again: you are mixing up the changes neccessary to convert a pen and paper game into a real time MMO game with those that simply change existing rules or add rules that have nothing to do with that. Examples of the former was the introduction of the SP system, the removal of AoOs, and at least in part the modification of the attack chain.

Examples of the latter include the entire AP system, the ability to stack metamagic feats without the need for access to higher spells, and the tons of non PnP-style bonuses on items found all over the game. These could all be removed without breaking the game, provided the monsters and quests would be toned down to 'normal' levels as well - and that includes quests like Kobold Assault. This is what the OP wants - and while I think this is simply not feasible any more, the general idea is right.

Besides, Temple of Elemental Evil did a very good job on converting the PnP rules into a computer games. It covered only the core rules, no PrCs, and only characters up to level 10, but there was only a page or so of deviations from the original rules - whereas DDO has maybe a page or so of rules that still work as they do in PnP. True, ToEE was round based, not real time, and certainly not a MMO. But as I said above, most of the changes DDO introduced have absolutely nothing to do with the issue of introducing a real time MMO system.

Seneca_Windforge
04-06-2010, 05:42 PM
You can hardly equate house rules with PnP 3.5 rules? There are no core rules for the creation of self-made bonus items, so you could hardly consider such items core.

Regarding +items, I checked the SRD and found +10 versions of rings of climbing, jumping, and swimming - that is all. Did I miss any? I admit I didn't recall these +10 items, only the +5 versions.

Those are not house rules. They start on page 282 of the 3.5 DMG.

They may or may not be anywhere in the SRD.

Seneca_Windforge
04-06-2010, 05:46 PM
When's the last time you took out 200+ baddies in a 45 minute pen and paper session? This is a video game based on D&D, I think D&D Insider is more what the OP is looking for. I'd love to see what would happen if an MMO went 100% accurate on 3.5 rules...anyone got $50 million they feel like spending without any likelihood of return? :)

I don't mean to sound flippant, there's a lot of balancing that could/should be done in DDO. But it's far more complex than just copying the paper version of the game over. I think one of DDO's main strengths is getting the "feel" of pen and paper right while adapting the rule set to an active combat MMO.

The only thing I'd add to this is that the 3.5 rule system would work better with a turn-based RPG system. If you've played Dungeons and Dragons Tactics for the PSP, you'll know they take the 3.5 rules VERY seriously, with only a few changes to what they have. It's an...okay...game, but I've spent way more hours playing DDO.

Meh -- I generally like strategy games (Fire Emblem PoR, Final Fantasy Tactics, Eternal Poison, Stella Deus, Suikoden Tactics, even Operation Darkness which got a lot of hate), but man DnD Tactics was DULL! There was an absolutely painful adherence to the 3.5 rules. I didn't get very far at all before I quit.

Aschbart
04-06-2010, 05:53 PM
Those are not house rules. They start on page 282 of the 3.5 DMG.

They may or may not be anywhere in the SRD.

Hm, can't check, stashed away my books a year ago when I stopped playing PnP. I was pretty sure the DMG only covered the process of creating magical items that are listed in the books, not describe the creation of custom items by the DM, although such might be covered in one of the optional rules boxes - I used to ignore these, so if it's in there I wouldn't know.

That said, my experience with the SRD is such that it covers each and every actual rule from the core books, but not the examples, flavor text, and most of the optional rules. So I'm pretty sure, if it's in the books, it's got to be optional.

Seneca_Windforge
04-06-2010, 05:58 PM
Hm, can't check, stashed away my books a year ago when I stopped playing PnP. I was pretty sure the DMG only covered the process of creating magical items that are listed in the books, not describe the creation of custom items by the DM, although such might be covered in one of the optional rules boxes - I used to ignore these, so if it's in there I wouldn't know.

That said, my experience with the SRD is such that it covers each and every actual rule from the core books, but not the examples, flavor text, and most of the optional rules. So I'm pretty sure, if it's in the books, it's got to be optional.

It isn't listed as "optional." It's supposed to be a way for characters to design their own magic items similarly to researching new spells or whatnot. It gives you lists of formulas for adding a multitude of bonuses, and IIRC, many of the listed magic items (Cloak of Elvenkind) are essentially just items "pre-made" using those formulas.