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View Full Version : Turn Undead vs Destroy Undead, Why Destroy won't happen



cinoaz
03-22-2010, 10:11 AM
In previous threads, players are stating that a cleric is destroying undead in LoTD on Elite, clearing entire rooms, yadda, yadda, yadda..

However, those same people never put details on builds, it's all qualitative hyperbole. Not me, I deal with numbers.

So, why doesn't Destroy work at higher levels in the game you ask, because, you can't raise your cleric levels faster than undead increase their HD as you level in the game.

It's a loosing gradient, HD Undead increase much faster than you can increase cleric levels. So, lets see those numbers.

Since this thread is focused on Destroy undead, remember, CHR does not play a role in Cleric Levels. CHR plays no role whatsoever in determining if you Destroy Undead. For MaxHD and TotalHD turned, yes it does, but for Destroy undead, CHR could be a -2 and makes no difference.

Cleric lvl 20 (all Turn Feats and Enhancements chosen that increase Cleric Levels)
CHR = 26 (+8) (Put in here to show how calculations are done in Combat log, not needed for Destroy Undead Calculation).

Feats, Enhancements and Gear
1 True Reincarnate = +2 to CLERIC LEVEL
Turn Enhancements = +3 to CLERIC LEVEL
Turn Feat = +1 to CLERIC LEVEL
Seek Eternal Rest (SER) Spell = +4 to CLERIC LEVEL
Gauntlets of Eternity = +2 to CLERIC LEVEL
Gauntlets of Eternity = +2 to MAX HD Turned
Cleric Turning Table = +(depends on roll) MAX HD Turned
Gauntlets of Eternity = +4 to TOTAL HD Turned

So, lets see a typical combat log:

(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 17 : you hit foes up to 36 hit dice.

Now, most people will look at the 36HD and say, oh, I should Destroy any undead up to 17HD (Undead less than half of turning levels Destroyed)

Oh hold on there Kemosabee, you would be incorrect to think that. The 36HD roll is for your Max HD turn calculation, it is NOT Destroy.

First part, let's calculate our Total Cleric Level to see if we destroy undead:

20 [Cleric Level] + 2 [Gauntlets of Eternity] +3 [Enhancements] + 1 [Feat] + 4 [SER] + 2 [True Reincarnate] = 32

So, you can destroy undead that are 15HD or less.

Your Destroy undead calculation is hidden from you, it doesn't appear in the combat log. The combat log shows your MAX HD turn calculation, which takes into account CHR bonus for the Turning Table (+4 in this example).

So, running LoTD on Elite, I would feel safe to say, the undead in there are above 15HD. So, even a capped cleric, who did a True Re-incarnate, with all bonues to feats, enhancements and Spells (SER), and equipment, the MAX cleric levels you can obtain is 32.
(Note: If you did a TR 3 times, cleric each time, your max Cleric Levels is 36, that means you can destroy undead with 17HD or less).

I haven't run LoTD lately, but, depending on HD levels of undead, anyone wish to chime in on HD levels of LoTD on Elite, that the HD is less that 15HD......

Oh, and I believe in LoTD, the undead have buffs to resist turning, I think it's either a +1 or +2, depending on undead type, which makes your HD drop down to 14, maybe even 13, to destroy undead. Something tells me undead in LoTD are higher than 13HD.

zopzop
03-22-2010, 01:52 PM
It's a loosing gradient, HD Undead increase much faster than you can increase cleric levels.

Yup that's exactly how it was in PnP D&D 3.0 to 3.5 (haven't played 4.0 yet). Turning Undead is absolutely the worst unique power set given to a class. At least in PnP Cleric's had the "Divine Metamagic" cheese that was so awesome some DMs banned it.

Where does that leave Clerics and Turning in PnP and DDO without Divine Metamagic? Well in PnP Clerics can choose to join the Lightbringer Guild/Clan (from the Castle Ravenloft adventure). It allowed you to use a turn attempt to do divine damage 1d6 per character level to all undead in a good sized radius. Not bad. In DDO the "Divine Light" line of enhancements are comparable (6d6, 12d6, and 18d6 as you level up).

Oh also in PnP D&D there were certain classes (Radiant Servant or Eye of Horus Ra) and feats (like Disciple of the Sun) that allowed you to use 2 turn undead attempts to destroy any undead you would have only "turned". So if you had enough cleric levels and buffs to turn a 30 HD undead you can use two turn attempts to destroy him completely.

gavagai
03-22-2010, 02:06 PM
This is only tangentially related, but thought I'd bring it up: I think Elven FvS will be better undead CC'ers than Clerics when we get Epic undead content.

Undying Courts FvS get "Command Undead" as a capstone, which I presume will be free even when Heightened. Due to the popularity of the Scimitar as a melee weapon, there will actually be a few level 20 Undying Court FvS's.

So when Epic Necropolis comes out (or other Epic content with lots of undead), Clerics (whose turning is based on Hit Dice) will be pretty irrelevant, while Elven FvS can easily take advantage of low Will saves and unlimited heightened Command Undead casting.

That's something the Dev's should to keep in mind when designing both the cleric PrEs and Epic content with undead.

knightgf
03-22-2010, 02:15 PM
So, why doesn't Destroy work at higher levels in the game you ask, because, you can't raise your cleric levels faster than undead increase their HD as you level in the game.



As many people may point out, turn undead is horrible in itself, unless you use some of the enhancements that use turn undead attempts. Its like analog tv's that were made before the United State's transistion to digital TV; they're useless unless you use the analog converter adapter on the Television. I guess you could say the same for will saves with sorcerers; they're worthless unless you use an adapter(I.E.:Force of Personality feat) to convert which type of stat applies to will saves.

Personally, I find all of the enhancements that use turn undead attempts for something else on clerics are more useful than turn undead; that does not mean they are all good however...

zopzop
03-22-2010, 06:29 PM
So when Epic Necropolis comes out (or other Epic content with lots of undead), Clerics (whose turning is based on Hit Dice) will be pretty irrelevant, while Elven FvS can easily take advantage of low Will saves and unlimited heightened Command Undead casting.

Sad no? And you can keep them under your control for a LONG time (mindless undead are basically your slaves till the mission ends).


That's something the Dev's should to keep in mind when designing both the cleric PrEs and Epic content with undead.

Believe it or not there are two Eberron specific prestige classes with an "undead feel" to them that Clerics (and Paladins but not FvS) have : Bone Knight and Deadgrim. Both PrC's have some nice immunities with the Bone Knight basically giving you ALL the immunites undead enjoy (except immunity to mind effecting spells) with NONE of the undeads weaknesses :D The Deadgrim is more offensively oriented (gaining undead as a favored enemy with bonuses to hit, damage, and save against their attacks).

Talon_Moonshadow
03-22-2010, 07:51 PM
Giant Skellies in the Subterrain even have a deathblock effect that prevents being destroyed.

I think the trend with epic is to give monsters deathblock like effects to prevent insta kills and vorpals. So, I'm betteing that destroying undead on epic will never happen.

I'm actually ok with this, but it's the other turn undead prblems I would like to se fixed.
Ya know....the turning part?!..... that part where they run away from you?


At first glance it is simply annoying, but it is much worse than that in reality.
They run, run, run, to the end of their leash. Then snap back.....unturned.
And incorporeal ones flee through walls. And there are stil some spots where doors do not open til they come back and let you beat them down (like the whole rest of the party wanted to do anyway) Or chests that do not open till they come back. (I've had to apologize so many times for turning things in the Orchard. :( )

Then there is the second problem. Turn undead would be a wonderful OH ****!!! button, except that the turning part (unlike the destroy part) is NOT instantaneous! They get about three more attacks in on you AFTER they are turned!

My cleric has watched numerous times, various undead fleee from the divine power of my.....corpse.... :(
Or hover over me clearly cowered....yet having no real effect.
So instead of a great HELP ME oh powerful God! divine power.....
It is effectively useless. Annoying at best. In fact the only reason to do it is to listen to players' amazement that it actually worked.
(I still do it though. :) )

gavagai
03-22-2010, 08:02 PM
At first glance it is simply annoying, but it is much worse than that in reality.

How do you think it could be improved? The "fleeing through walls" problem seems pretty crucial, and suggests that the entire "turning = fleeing" mechanism should change.

Should we deviate completely from PnP, and introduce a soundburst-like stun or slow/blindness debuff instead?

Talon_Moonshadow
03-22-2010, 08:18 PM
How do you think it could be improved? The "fleeing through walls" problem seems pretty crucial, and suggests that the entire "turning = fleeing" mechanism should change.

Should we deviate completely from PnP, and introduce a soundburst-like stun or slow/blindness debuff instead?

I think it should be a stun(like) effect. I understand that that seems more powerful, but as many people have pointed out, TU is weaker in DDO than PnP. And the running away thing just doesn't work here. It's detrimental to the game IMO.

But it also needs to be instantaneous (or as close as they can get...like stuns and holds right now...that don't always work correctly).

Few players spec for it anyway, so it will not be overpowered IMO, just to make cowered undead, stand still instead of running.

cinoaz
03-23-2010, 09:13 AM
I agree, the Turn Undead should be a Stun like effect, just like cower they don't break if attacked.

However, I have a Turn Based Cleric, well actually two, one of the True Reincarnated.

Given much thought to this, if, the ability to Destroy Undead is completely dependent on Cleric Levels, then, in reality, at lower levels, you can clear rooms of undead and still use CHR as a dump stat pretty much.

So, looking at my build, I would much rather put points in WIS, CON, DEX than CHR.

Since I only care about Destroying undead, not turning, why put precious points in CHR, except for number of turns per rest, but that can be fine tuned with Tomes and Stat items.

Zenako
03-23-2010, 09:35 AM
Got to agree on the running away mechanic when they are turned. That is clearly one of the main reasons many players moan whenever someone attempts to turn the undead and is not powerful enough to just nuke them. (was fun running a high level Paladin thru the Catacombs for favor and just gathering them up to flash them a while back (before DA and before all the other useful things we can use turns for now).

Having them just cower would be a very nice improvement and not break as many situations in quests. The attacking after being turned effect is much like all the action ques that continue until their turn comes up. The Enemy caster who gets you with a Hold Person after they are dead :eek: or gets off that sleet storm after being paralyzed :eek: or those Lawn Gnomes that chase you around a quest..:eek::eek::eek: all speak to action ques that get completely processed and not interrupted.

tolana
03-23-2010, 10:01 AM
I think it should be a stun(like) effect. I understand that that seems more powerful, but as many people have pointed out, TU is weaker in DDO than PnP. And the running away thing just doesn't work here. It's detrimental to the game IMO.

But it also needs to be instantaneous (or as close as they can get...like stuns and holds right now...that don't always work correctly).

Few players spec for it anyway, so it will not be overpowered IMO, just to make cowered undead, stand still instead of running.

maybe it should be like holy smite was when it used to stun the giants in tor.

Fenrisulven6
03-25-2010, 11:04 AM
This is why I haven't ever bothered with Turning on my clerics. One of the most powerful abilities of the class and its broken.

My clerics have to take Halt Undead clickies into Deleras. Shame on you Turbine :p