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View Full Version : Point Blank Shot Needs A Boost!



Ganolyn
03-22-2010, 02:59 AM
Point Blank Shot is needed for several good Feats and Enhancements, but is pretty useless on it's own. Let's face it, an extra +1 is no game maker or breaker. Besides, has anyone seen what a high pound bow does at thirty feet or less? Anything not in heavy armor would have a good chance of the arrow going right through them. Even in heavy armor they pretty much would go right down to the fletchings. Armor piercing bodkins are nasty as hell.

I think that it should get better as the target gets closer. Something like +1 at 30', +2 at 20', +3 at 10', +4 at 5' and +5 at point blank in your face. If that is too hard to implement a round +3 at 30' or less would work too and make the feat worth having.

Jay203
03-22-2010, 03:02 AM
with the range it requires to be "close enough" for point blank to proc
i'd say double the damage >=3

Angelus_dead
03-22-2010, 03:06 AM
Point Blank Shot is needed for several good Feats and Enhancements, but is pretty useless on it's own. Let's face it, an extra +1 is no game maker or breaker.
What is your justification for PBS to be more powerful than it is?

I hope you have something better than "pretty useless on it's own", because in that case I have a Weapon Focus and Mobility to sell you.

Ganolyn
03-22-2010, 04:47 AM
What is your justification for PBS to be more powerful than it is?

I hope you have something better than "pretty useless on it's own", because in that case I have a Weapon Focus and Mobility to sell you.


I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. +1 extra to hit and damage is pretty useless on it's own because its not enough to waste a feat slot on IMO and bows are more deadly that that at close range. If you are willing to stand your ground with a bruiser in your face and took a discipline that allowed you to take a good shot it should be worth more than a +1. It leads to good feats and enhancements, but does little to add to the overall effectiveness of the package. I just think it should be worth more than what your are paying for. I don't see why that requires a dissertation.

blitzschlag
03-22-2010, 05:00 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. +1 extra to hit and damage is pretty useless on it's own because its not enough to waste a feat slot on IMO and bows are more deadly that that at close range. If you are willing to stand your ground with a bruiser in your face and took a discipline that allowed you to take a good shot it should be worth more than a +1. It leads to good feats and enhancements, but does little to add to the overall effectiveness of the package. I just think it should be worth more than what your are paying for. I don't see why that requires a dissertation.

you know that tempest need to take 3 more or less useless feats (most ppl would not take mobility and spring attack. dodge may be discussable) to get their PrE?!
even if PBS would be beefed up, it would still be way more beneficial to swap to a pair of good rapiers for close combat. you see, even the All-Ranger Idol Legolas swapped to a pair of kukris when it got close and personal...

Sinni
03-22-2010, 05:03 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. +1 extra to hit and damage is pretty useless on it's own because its not enough to waste a feat slot on IMO and bows are more deadly that that at close range. If you are willing to stand your ground with a bruiser in your face and took a discipline that allowed you to take a good shot it should be worth more than a +1. It leads to good feats and enhancements, but does little to add to the overall effectiveness of the package. I just think it should be worth more than what your are paying for. I don't see why that requires a dissertation.

what he says is: point blank shot is a feat to unlock others and by itself it isn't that good. but if you imporve point blank shot, you would also need to improve others like mobility (+4 ac WHILE tumbling) or weapon focus (+1 to hit on the chosen weapon type, no damage bonus), because they too are not-so-good feats that open qualify for other feats.
btw about point blank shot: it represents the ability to aim at targets at close range. if a target at a close range makes 1 step to the side, the angle you have to adjust your aim because of that is much higher than it would be if the target was far away.

Bacab
03-22-2010, 05:17 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. +1 extra to hit and damage is pretty useless on it's own because its not enough to waste a feat slot on IMO and bows are more deadly that that at close range. If you are willing to stand your ground with a bruiser in your face and took a discipline that allowed you to take a good shot it should be worth more than a +1. It leads to good feats and enhancements, but does little to add to the overall effectiveness of the package. I just think it should be worth more than what your are paying for. I don't see why that requires a dissertation.


The whole "ranging while a mob is beating you to death" is why ranged rangers are looked down upon. Please for the love of god pull out a melee weapon and kill the mob. Please do not kite it...

There are a LOT of feats that are utter suckage cleave for Barb's Frenzy Berserker...as someone pointed out, 3 feats for Tempest. Weapon Focus is pretty much garbage past lvl 14ish.

This arguement is kinda like saying "Spell Focus Evocation is a stupid feat, I just want GREATER SPELL FOCUS EVOCATION". I understand maybe you are just venting, but your complaint just comes across as whiny and desiring the easy button.

The was DnD has been balanced since 3.0 (feats started here) was sometimes you had to take a "meh" feat to get a "OMG***BBQ" feat. Thats just how they balanced it.

Also if you think PBS is a wasted feat slot...you do not have to take it...unless its required for something you want...then see above.

Also toughness is "useless" (not really useless) except that it opens up racial and class toughness...which obviously kick butt.

Ganolyn
03-22-2010, 11:54 AM
Look, I'm not going to get into a play style argument. If people don't want to use something (like +4 to their AC when Tumbling because it is "inconvenient") thats their choice. I've found occasional uses for it if I'm thinking at the time.

What I'm talking about is the realities of bow use and damage potential. People wouldn't kite if they had a good reason to stand still. The angular velocity example is backwards; the angle to adjust would go down at closer ranges and be greater at longer ranges. And if I sound whiney for simply making a suggestion in a suggestion forum then think how you sound when your only input amounts to "shut up and play the game my way or I'll treat you like ****!"? My input at least has a basis in fact and reality and could be reflected in game terms in a better way. The devs worked hard on all the aspects of the game and they all deserve a fair trial by any who would like to try them and a chance for improvement.

For the record, all "useless" Feats should be reviewed. No Feat should be "useless" or needed simply as a stepping stone to later greatness. They represent years of training and work and should not be throw-aways. For the example given, Weapon Foci, I agree. They should get better with level or give a better base improvement value. I haven't gotten around to complaining about everything yet, be patient! :D

gavagai
03-22-2010, 12:16 PM
For the record, all "useless" Feats should be reviewed. No Feat should be "useless" or needed simply as a stepping stone to later greatness. They represent years of training and work and should not be throw-aways. For the example given, Weapon Foci, I agree. They should get better with level or give a better base improvement value. I haven't gotten around to complaining about everything yet, be patient! :D

The problem is that (if my memory serves me corerctly) Point Blank Shot was originally giving a great benefit in PnP than it doesn in DDO: it negated a standard -4 to-hit penalty that ranged characters faced when trying to use a ranged weapon in melee combat.

So PBS was in effect a +5 to-hit, +1 to damage -- and removed "attacks of opportunity" (not implemented in DDO) against the ranged character when firing.

Only by implementing the penalties (which IMO are very reasonable, given how easy it would be to startle and shake an archer at close range) would PBS become very useful. But I think its wiser to just be happy with the +1/+1. ;)

Impaqt
03-22-2010, 12:33 PM
DDO is littered with Semi Useful Feats.....

PBS is for example better than.....

Acrobatic
Alertness
Athletic
Combat Casting
Defensive Fighting
Deflect Arrows
Discipline
Drow Spell Resistance


and thats just through the D's

And lets not forget "Weapon Focus" Its just +1 to hit...

PBS has the added benefit of letting you know Exactly when you're withint "Sneak Attack" range on a ROgue as well.. WHich is nice.

Ganolyn
03-22-2010, 12:36 PM
The problem is that (if my memory serves me corerctly) Point Blank Shot was originally giving a great benefit in PnP than it doesn in DDO: it negated a standard -4 to-hit penalty that ranged characters faced when trying to use a ranged weapon in melee combat.

So PBS was in effect a +5 to-hit, +1 to damage -- and removed "attacks of opportunity" (not implemented in DDO) against the ranged character when firing.

Only by implementing the penalties (which IMO are very reasonable, given how easy it would be to startle and shake an archer at close range) would PBS become very useful. But I think its wiser to just be happy with the +1/+1. ;)


I could go for that. Someone swinging in your face should have the opportunity to fluff your shot, much like spells.

Angelus_dead
03-22-2010, 01:04 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. +1 extra to hit and damage is pretty useless on it's own because its not enough to waste a feat slot on IMO
And that is wrong.

A +1 to attack and damage is above average for one feat. If there was a way to spend a feat for +1 melee attack and damage then it would be pretty popular, even without serving as a requirement for other features.

The only reason PBS is not popular is because ranged combat is broken. The good way to fix PBS would be to fix ranged combat.


The problem is that (if my memory serves me corerctly) Point Blank Shot was originally giving a great benefit in PnP than it doesn in DDO: it negated a standard -4 to-hit penalty that ranged characters faced when trying to use a ranged weapon in melee combat.
That memory is incorrect, as seen here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#pointBlankShot

gavagai
03-22-2010, 01:13 PM
That memory is incorrect, as seen here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#pointBlankShot

Alas, that deviant memory must have come from my brief flirtation with NWN (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Point_blank_shot). I guess I remember it because it seems more true-to-life.

I wonder what else that game has implanted in my head... :eek:

Ganolyn
03-22-2010, 01:47 PM
And that is wrong.

A +1 to attack and damage is above average for one feat. If there was a way to spend a feat for +1 melee attack and damage then it would be pretty popular, even without serving as a requirement for other features.

The only reason PBS is not popular is because ranged combat is broken. The good way to fix PBS would be to fix ranged combat.



There is no such thing as a wrong opinion.


It should be above average for one Feat as it takes advantage of the bow's design in strength amplification to add range to the projectile and uses it for damage modification at point blank ranges, much like trading DEX bonus for STR bonus with Finesse. I'm merely unsatisfied with the amount of said bonus.

I have stated that other Feats could use a once over as well, especially things like Weapons Focus. I also think they should consider granting the required Feats below a granted class or racial Feat to make them useable without having to use another slot on it. For example, does it really make sense that a bow specialist would be able to get Rapid Shot without having to learn and retain Point Blank Shot, but some other shlub has to?


Sure ranged combat is gimped and there will be no solution in sight because there is no consensus on what needs fixing plus the outright hatred of the disipline in the first place.

Vormaerin
03-22-2010, 03:47 PM
There is no such thing as a wrong opinion.


It should be above average for one Feat as it takes advantage of the bow's design in strength amplification to add range to the projectile and uses it for damage modification at point blank ranges, much like trading DEX bonus for STR bonus with Finesse. I'm merely unsatisfied with the amount of said bonus.

I have stated that other Feats could use a once over as well, especially things like Weapons Focus. I also think they should consider granting the required Feats below a granted class or racial Feat to make them useable without having to use another slot on it. For example, does it really make sense that a bow specialist would be able to get Rapid Shot without having to learn and retain Point Blank Shot, but some other shlub has to?


Sure ranged combat is gimped and there will be no solution in sight because there is no consensus on what needs fixing plus the outright hatred of the disipline in the first place.

Actually, opinions are quite capable of being wrong when they are based on an incorrect understanding of the facts. Anyway, you need to qualify your statement for it to be a matter of protected opinion. "This feat isn't good enough for me to want it" is a statement of opinion. A more general statement that it isn't good enough period is an argument that can be countered.

Kindly show how PBS is underpowered compared to other feat choices. Wpn Focus is only +1 to hit, Weapon Specialization is only +2 dmg. PBS fits right in there at +1 to both. What feats are clearly better at providing such bonuses? The only one I can think of is Bow Strength, but that's actually a nerf anyway since "Bow Strength" is supposed to be an item property, not a feat.

Ganolyn
03-22-2010, 04:59 PM
Actually, opinions are quite capable of being wrong when they are based on an incorrect understanding of the facts. Anyway, you need to qualify your statement for it to be a matter of protected opinion. "This feat isn't good enough for me to want it" is a statement of opinion. A more general statement that it isn't good enough period is an argument that can be countered.

Kindly show how PBS is underpowered compared to other feat choices. Wpn Focus is only +1 to hit, Weapon Specialization is only +2 dmg. PBS fits right in there at +1 to both. What feats are clearly better at providing such bonuses? The only one I can think of is Bow Strength, but that's actually a nerf anyway since "Bow Strength" is supposed to be an item property, not a feat.


Actually opinions are capable of being ignorant due to a lack of information or experience. There is nothing "wrong" with stating an opinion that is based on the best available or garnered knowledge to date. But we are not here to discuss the nature of opinions.

I don't wish to compare apples to oranges when I believe many Feats are under powered and could use a boost. However, using melee vs ranged even comparing WF/WS against each other I think it would become clear as melee DPS is higher anyway even with Multishot because you can swing a lot faster than shoot or throw, especially with TWF, so those Feats are better because that +1 and +2 come into play more often.

But thats just my ignorant opinion...

Vormaerin
03-22-2010, 07:02 PM
In which case, you are proposing treating the symptoms and ignoring the cause. PBS would be fine and balanced if ranged combat was fixed. If ranged combat is not fixed, nothing you do to PBS will fix it. In fact, boosting PBS would make it less likely to get fixed because any fix would require nerfing PBS again OR would be predicated on every ranged character having this feat...which I think is suboptimal design.

Ganolyn
03-22-2010, 07:35 PM
Define what you mean by "fixed". I have seen a hundred ideas of what fixed is.

Vormaerin
03-23-2010, 02:03 AM
Fixed meaning that it is competitive with melee as a DPS method, like it is in pen and paper.

Aschbart
03-23-2010, 02:59 AM
The main problem with PBS, WF, and countless other feats that have or have not been mentioned is that the entire combat system is broken. Attack bonuses as well as damage and HP totals in DDO are boosted to way beyond what you would encounter in PnP, and for that reason a feat that only offers a +1 to anything appears weak, whereas in PnP it's just fine.

That said, apart from some badly adapted feats such as Mobility*, all feats are fairly well balanced against each other, if not the rest of the system. (* I disagree btw on spring attack - being able to follow a madly hopping kobold shaman and still hit at full attack bonus is huge! Often useless, I agree, but also situationally helpful.)

In fact, PBS is one of the stronger feats for the damage bonus, and the fact that it also applies to thrown weapons and thus covers two weapon focus categories! That it requires standing close is IMHO not a weakness of the feat, but of the players who don't manage to use their feats to the best of their advantage. If you're in a group it shouldn't be a problem at all to move within the right range, and if you're soloing what are you doing with your bow to start with?

Sinni
03-23-2010, 03:10 AM
People wouldn't kite if they had a good reason to stand still.

They already have good reason to stand still: The rest of the party can also deal with the mob. If people don't want listen to reason, nothing helps.


The angular velocity example is backwards; the angle to adjust would go down at closer ranges and be greater at longer ranges.

Uhmm... No. Say you are aiming straight at a target in 300 feet distance. The target makes 1 sidestep, you only need to adjust a few degrees in your aim. If your target stands right in front of you and does that sidestep you'll need to change your aim by about 45°.

Ganolyn
03-23-2010, 04:10 AM
They already have good reason to stand still: The rest of the party can also deal with the mob. If people don't want listen to reason, nothing helps.

There is never a good reason to stand still when on the defensive if you are even remotely squishy. I've learned to stop firing when a mob diverts their attention to me so I have time to switch weapons. This game has a bit of a lag issue swapping weapons quickly when a ranged weapon is firing. You have to wait for the reload sequence to do it. The only time I kite is when I get bum rushed by surprise and don't have time to swap so I'm buying time until the game decides to cooperate or I really believe I can drop them in the next couple of shots (of course, better to hit and damage from PBS would make that easier, especially while moving and mixed with SotR).




Uhmm... No. Say you are aiming straight at a target in 300 feet distance. The target makes 1 sidestep, you only need to adjust a few degrees in your aim. If your target stands right in front of you and does that sidestep you'll need to change your aim by about 45°.


Is this target two dimensional? As the target gets closer, it gets wider in proportion to the angle's degrees of arc filling the space as the legs of the triangle get closer together. They pretty much cancel each other out until the target is about six feet away, then the archer is screwed. The wider the target, the easier it is. Lead tracking is much harder than angular shifts. I know this from practical experience in archery.

sephiroth1084
03-23-2010, 04:22 AM
What is your justification for PBS to be more powerful than it is?

I hope you have something better than "pretty useless on it's own", because in that case I have a Weapon Focus and Mobility to sell you.

Just because other feats need love doesn't mean that Sesame Street shouldn't get some.

If anything, this thread could be turned into a plea for all of the weak, common prerequisite feats to get a boost of some kind.

At the very least, 'close range' should be increase by at least double, even if no other changes are made.

Vormaerin
03-23-2010, 04:35 AM
Yes, you could make an argument that ALL (well, nearly all...improved crit, TWF, 2HF are solid) the feats in the game need to be boosted to compete with the enhancements. I don't think that would be a good idea, but you could make that case.

However, you can't make a good case that this particular feat is particularly disadvantaged and in need of help. Its actually mildly useful, unlike many other feats.

Bacab
03-23-2010, 04:41 AM
"Fix PBS" seems kinda short-sighted and silly..

BUT

"Fix Ranged DPS"...I can get on board with that. Everytime a Ranger hits a LFM I have up...I ask "What type of ranger are you?" If they say AA or DWS...I then have to ask: "Do you kite or switch to melee when a monster is on top of you?" Depending on that answer, I decide to accept them or not.

Ranged DPS should not equal Melee. You should NOT be able to match melee DPS and not take damage. IF you could; why would you ever do melee DPS?

That being said, ranged DPS should be more than 25% of a melee's DPS. I would think 75% of melee DPS would be about right/fair. I would also like to see movement speed decreased by 25-50% while moving backwards. That would prevent the backpedaling while shooting. That tactic reminds me of "Dolphin Divers" in many FPS.

Not sure what you guys think about this. Angelus_Dead and Impaqt , I am kinda curious what your thoughts are. By reading many of your earlier posts (in this thread and others) you (both) seem to understand how to buff something without breaking balance.

Vormaerin
03-23-2010, 01:05 PM
Ranged DPS should not equal Melee. You should NOT be able to match melee DPS and not take damage. IF you could; why would you ever do melee DPS?



This argument is misguided. You don't have the option to just avoid damage by being ranged in general. In some situations? Sure. In the game as a whole? No. Kiting in DDO is already not that great an option and lots of attackers have their own ranged attacks.

Should melee not be able to stun or trip mobs or work with a CC using caster or have an intimitank around, because that lets them do damage without taking damage?

As I said, yes, there are some situations where you could use ranged to kill things without taking damage yourself. But you can already do that now in those situations. Its just slow. Conversely, you have situations where piercing damage (which is the only choice for an archer) is far from optimal.

Ganolyn
03-23-2010, 02:11 PM
"Fix PBS" seems kinda short-sighted and silly..


One thing at a time, with other things it affects in mind.



=Bacab;2845496]
"Fix Ranged DPS"...I can get on board with that.


It seems essential to the "fix" and the one thing that has a majority of concensus on this topic.




Not sure what you guys think about this. Angelus_Dead and Impaqt , I am kinda curious what your thoughts are. By reading many of your earlier posts (in this thread and others) you (both) seem to understand how to buff something without breaking balance.


I keep wondering about this "balance" people keep speaking of. I just came off playing a game for ten years (we'd still play if we had more players) that was based on a PnP game so complicated it makes DnD look like a preschool primer. The PnP version was all PvP and as the AI in the computer version was inept, to say the least, all good battles were PvP. There balance was essential as one tiny mistake could lose you the whole show, battles could last hours and micro-management was the rule of the day. You have never seen such vehement arguments on a forum over a video game (people were actually called Nazis and worse). It made some hardcore political forums look tame. Any little change to anything would erupt a firestorm of protests about balance issues and t i t for tat thinking.

Here, to me at least, balance seem very easily tweaked in comparison as most play is vs AI. Build a good core game, make the enhancements build on the good foundation and make the AI appropriately difficult. Tweak as needed. The devs completely control one side of the equation, which is much easier than having to deal with issues arising from crafty people coming up with tactics and tricks that no one ever thought of in testing and using them on practically helpless opponents who have little or no defence. Here they can fix the AI. It may not satisfy everyone, but at least they only have to hear one side whine about it. :D

grodon9999
03-23-2010, 03:47 PM
Were expecting a "polish pass" for ranged soon, hopefully in update 4. Hopefully that doesn't mean all the bows will get whacked with Kielbasa.

Turial
03-23-2010, 03:59 PM
....
Ranged DPS should not equal Melee. You should NOT be able to match melee DPS and not take damage. IF you could; why would you ever do melee DPS?
....

In DDO melee = TWF or THF.

Most ranged combat advocates would like to see ranged equal to sword and bored melee. There is a huge difference between the three melee types and an even larger difference between sword and bored and ranged.

PBS is fine as a feat because it boosts 2 combat attributes in one go with a relatively minor penalty (being within 30 feet).

Aesop
03-23-2010, 04:08 PM
At the very least, 'close range' should be increase by at least double, even if no other changes are made.

Other than the generic Fix Ranged Combat

I can get behind this suggestion in specific to PBS. PBS range is closer to touch range than it is to short range.

other than that there isn't anything wrong with PBS.

wanna touch on other Feats like

Mobility: add half the value as a dodge bonus while moving instead of while tumbling (keep the tumbling bonus)

Spring Attack: improve RoA while moving or rather reduce the penalty

Power Critical: add half the value to critical damage (pre multiplier)


Shield Mastery: have it increase Shield AC by 1 and +5 Blocking DR

Improved Shield Mastery: further Shield AC increase by 1, +5 Blocking DR and and a 1% chance per BAB of auto-blocking an incoming attack

Improved Shield Bash: Make it a toggle that adds Shield Bash attacks into the chain ala twf maybe only 2 per sequence though

Aesop

Aesop
03-23-2010, 04:12 PM
This argument is misguided. You don't have the option to just avoid damage by being ranged in general. In some situations? Sure. In the game as a whole? No. Kiting in DDO is already not that great an option and lots of attackers have their own ranged attacks.

Should melee not be able to stun or trip mobs or work with a CC using caster or have an intimitank around, because that lets them do damage without taking damage?

As I said, yes, there are some situations where you could use ranged to kill things without taking damage yourself. But you can already do that now in those situations. Its just slow. Conversely, you have situations where piercing damage (which is the only choice for an archer) is far from optimal.

yep... pretty much true all around. It is possible to negate some of the damage you'd take with ranged combat but a slight shift in AI would alleviate a few of those issues and take the old dried up non damage arguement into the garbage permanently


Aesop

Angelus_dead
03-23-2010, 04:33 PM
There is no such thing as a wrong opinion.
There is no such thing as a green apple.

Angelus_dead
03-23-2010, 04:44 PM
Just because other feats need love doesn't mean that Sesame Street shouldn't get some.
That does not fit as a response to my statements.


If anything, this thread could be turned into a plea for all of the weak, common prerequisite feats to get a boost of some kind.
It is technically possible to turn any thread into any other kind of written material, but rarely helpful to do so.


At the very least, 'close range' should be increase by at least double, even if no other changes are made.
No, that would be bad. To do so would both betray the meaning of "Point Blank" Shot, and increase the power of ranged combats in situations where it is already more than good enough.

winsom
03-23-2010, 04:58 PM
Point Blank Shot should definately reach further than 30'. In D&D pnp the 30' is a lot more meaninful than it is in DDO. in DDO when something is within 30' it takes less than a second to go melee with it.



I hope you have something better than "pretty useless on it's own", because in that case I have a Weapon Focus and Mobility to sell you.

I do not like how some 3E feats that require other feats, but that is why there are some relative junkers. Spring Attack and Weapon Specialization are extremely good in PnP D&D.

Turbine apparently considers the DDO versions of those feats to be just as powerful. I do not.

If I were writing for the high power and fast-paced DDO world, I'd make any +1 bonus from a feat be worth +2 in DDO (i.e. dodge, focus, point blank). But i'd also remove the standing-still attack bonus, so each +2 bonus to hit would mean a lot more.

Waukeen
03-23-2010, 05:04 PM
/not signed.

see the reasons above and add the example of needing Cleave to get Frenzied Berzerker even on a TwF.

Some good feats require barely benefitial pre-reqs, such is D&D 3.5.

grodon9999
03-24-2010, 08:04 AM
In DDO melee = TWF or THF.

Most ranged combat advocates would like to see ranged equal to sword and bored melee. There is a huge difference between the three melee types and an even larger difference between sword and bored and ranged.

PBS is fine as a feat because it boosts 2 combat attributes in one go with a relatively minor penalty (being within 30 feet).

Ranged RoF = S&B swing-speed + Manyshot = fine

OLDTIMEDD
03-24-2010, 08:30 AM
The main problem with PBS, WF, and countless other feats that have or have not been mentioned is that the entire combat system is broken. Attack bonuses as well as damage and HP totals in DDO are boosted to way beyond what you would encounter in PnP, and for that reason a feat that only offers a +1 to anything appears weak, whereas in PnP it's just fine.

That said, apart from some badly adapted feats such as Mobility*, all feats are fairly well balanced against each other, if not the rest of the system. (* I disagree btw on spring attack - being able to follow a madly hopping kobold shaman and still hit at full attack bonus is huge! Often useless, I agree, but also situationally helpful.)

In fact, PBS is one of the stronger feats for the damage bonus, and the fact that it also applies to thrown weapons and thus covers two weapon focus categories! That it requires standing close is IMHO not a weakness of the feat, but of the players who don't manage to use their feats to the best of their advantage. If you're in a group it shouldn't be a problem at all to move within the right range, and if you're soloing what are you doing with your bow to start with?

Shooting them before they can reach/attack you!!!! Watching giants do a death dance without hitting you is fun :D

sephiroth1084
03-24-2010, 09:56 AM
In DDO melee = TWF or THF.

Most ranged combat advocates would like to see ranged equal to sword and bored melee. There is a huge difference between the three melee types and an even larger difference between sword and bored and ranged.

PBS is fine as a feat because it boosts 2 combat attributes in one go with a relatively minor penalty (being within 30 feet).
PBS isn't fine because its bonuses are slight and difficult to benefit from.





No, that would be bad. To do so would both betray the meaning of "Point Blank" Shot, and increase the power of ranged combats in situations where it is already more than good enough.
How would expanding the range betray "point blank" range? Let's compare with pen and paper for a moment, because in this case the comparison is actually useful.

The only creatures in PnP with a reach of 30 ft. are of colossal size or using a reach weapon, and it is very easy to both identify where 30 ft. lies and remain at that distance from an enemy; however, in DDO it is fairly difficult to clearly identify the 30 ft. mark, and even more so to remain both within that range and outside of melee range of many monsters--an ogre or troll performing their triple attack will clobber you at "30 ft.", a giant will smack you with his club, Harry will likely tag you as well, especially in part 5 of The Shroud.

The 30 ft. range, as identified in DDO is simply too short a distance, as in many cases it invalidates half the point of using a ranged weapon in the first place (that of being outside of melee to avoid getting hit), and is incredibly difficult to maintain due to the amount and degree of movement we have in combat in DDO. Currently, the range is just too restrictive.

Have you ever tried playing a ranged character with some sneak attack? My archer has 1 level of rogue and I can probably count the number of times that I've managed to get SA damage on Arretrikos without getting hit on one hand. Additionally, while kiting is often seen as an undesirable method for ranged attackers to participate in an encounter, it is still one of the benefits of the style, and doesn't work very well (if at all) with PBS, again, due to the incredible small range.


The main problem with PBS, WF, and countless other feats that have or have not been mentioned is that the entire combat system is broken. Attack bonuses as well as damage and HP totals in DDO are boosted to way beyond what you would encounter in PnP, and for that reason a feat that only offers a +1 to anything appears weak, whereas in PnP it's just fine.


Actually, WF is considered one of the weakest primary feats in PnP by most of the 3.5 community (that Weapon Specialization and the greater versions of each are also considered so weak is part of the reason that the fighter class as a whole is looked upon with derision). A +1 bonus at level 1 is very good, but by level 20 it's being compared with the abilities that everyone else gains as they level, at which point it pales in comparison.

The feat is actually somewhat stronger in DDO in some ways since it applies to more weapons, although a +1 at 20 is still weak, even considering epic AC. Not weak to the point of useless, but weak.

Now compare that with PBS: a weak +1 bonus on to-hit, but only applies with one type of weapon (ranged) and under fairly stringent circumstances. That seems quite a bit worse.

Then you have the +1 to damage, which also only functions under fairly tight parameters. Let's compare the two: as far as attack bonuses go, most combatants get up to the 40-50 range as the absolute maximum value, while damage values tend to range (on decent to excellent melee) from ~45 damage per swing to a little over 100. Given those values, PBS's attack bonus (already fairly weak) means an increase of about 2%, while the damage bonus is a bit closer to 1%.

Finally, look at Power Attack, the quintessential melee feat that ranged characters want, but cannot have. Yes, it comes with a -5 penalty, but the fact that nearly every melee character, regardless of BAB, takes the feat and leaves it on almost all the time says about as much as needed on how valuable a +1 bonus to attacks is. And then melee characters are getting between 5 and 10 times as much damage from that single feat as PBS is providing. Oh, and of course, we come back to the fact that you have to jump through hoops just to get the bonuses from PBS.

So, why exactly do some people feel PBS is fine as is? Or a valuable feat? Would anyone take it if it weren't a prerequisite for all of the other ranged feats?

Kriogen
03-24-2010, 10:06 AM
+1 crit range, +1 crit multi but also -100% fortification. You can hit hard, but can also drop dead fast.

Danneskjold184
03-24-2010, 11:41 AM
+1 crit range, +1 crit multi but also -100% fortification. You can hit hard, but can also drop dead fast.

I like this, however I'd say -50% fort.

Turial
03-24-2010, 03:45 PM
PBS isn't fine because its bonuses are slight and difficult to benefit from.
...

If there was a melee feat that gave +1 Attack and Damage would you say the same thing?

How about if you had to be in sneak mode to gain the bonus?

Turial
03-24-2010, 03:48 PM
Ranged RoF = S&B swing-speed + Manyshot = fine

So are you saying its only fine if manyshot brings ranged ROF up to S&B ROA or it will still only be fine when manyshot can be used?

Aesop
03-24-2010, 04:05 PM
PBS and the sneak attack range are too short as it stands. I've been caught in cleaves while standing at ranged sneak attack range.

It should be increased. Not a huge amount but, as it is now, its too close. If its 30 ft then they must be measuring from far sides of the target to the far side of the character.

Aesop

Angelus_dead
03-24-2010, 04:07 PM
in DDO it is fairly difficult to clearly identify the 30 ft. mark, and even more so to remain both within that range and outside of melee range of many monsters
Incorrect. It is easy for a moderately competent player to be within that range, and indeed it happens without really trying. To stay outside of that distance would cause typical dungeon terrain to obstruct your line of sight.

To double the distance would make the PBS bonus something trivially available in every combat except true long-touch sniping.


Have you ever tried playing a ranged character with some sneak attack?
Yes, that's how I know how easy it really is.

Turial
03-24-2010, 06:04 PM
Incorrect. It is easy for a moderately competent player to be within that range, and indeed it happens without really trying. To stay outside of that distance would cause typical dungeon terrain to obstruct your line of sight.
....

Correct me if I'm wrong on this one. The haste circle is roughly the PBS/ranged sneak attack distance.

sephiroth1084
03-24-2010, 09:56 PM
Incorrect. It is easy for a moderately competent player to be within that range, and indeed it happens without really trying. To stay outside of that distance would cause typical dungeon terrain to obstruct your line of sight.

Simply being within range isn't the issue, but being both outside of melee range and within range.If you're going to stand close enough for the monsters to hit you, why bother using a bow?

And if you've no problem dancing around at the 30 ft. mark all the time, then more power to you, I'll admit your superior prowess in this regard. I, for one, cannot maintain that kind of dual proximity and distance with any regular success.


Correct me if I'm wrong on this one. The haste circle is roughly the PBS/ranged sneak attack distance.
Yes.

Bacab
03-25-2010, 02:02 AM
wow that is really small...the 30 feet equaling the Haste Circle.

So PBS is worthless...just like MANY other Feats that are PRE-REQS for better feats. Do you think I wanted to take Weapon focus on my Bard? Do you think every Tempest RNG really wants to HAVE to take DODGE MOBILITY SPRING ATTACK? Think every every Barb wants to take Cleave? I get it...some feats suck ass. Heck I have even known people to not take certain feats early on (looking at you CLeave) then take way later to open up a PrE.

Baisically this how DnD works...

Fighter gets no job abilities, but gets a zillion feats. You get to make your toon how you want to.

If you level any Class OTHER than Fighter...you are "Feat Starved". Except certain classes get to bypass Stat requirements. You can have a 18 STR/8 DEX RNG with "Superior TWF (Tempest 3)". Think about that for a second. Since AC ends up being a wash on about 80% of the builds...you can consider DEX a dump stat for most builds...except that they need the pre-reqs for 2WF...so they need usually a 15 Base dex (then eat a +2 tome).

Now for PBS, look at what a RNG gets for FREE as far as that goes. In fact just look at "Bow Strength". A ranger gets this for free. WHile a FTR has to "burn" 3 feats to get it. Its the way the game is balanced man.

If it was not this way I would make the Following build.

20 Barb with the following feats.

1. Greater 2 Handed Fighting

3. Great 2 Weapon Fighting

6. Superior Weapon Spec Slashing

9. Power Attack

12. Toughness

15. Stunning Blow

18. Superior Weapon Focus Slashing


Now as you can see...this would be BROKEN...

you have to have those non-optimal feats as pre-reqs. Though I will admit...this would be a fun build to play lol.

Ganolyn
03-25-2010, 04:37 AM
Originally Posted by Turial
Correct me if I'm wrong on this one. The haste circle is roughly the PBS/ranged sneak attack distance.



Yes.



There is no way that is 30'. That circle can't be more than 10' in diameter the way they draw it in proportion to your character.

Kyrn
03-25-2010, 04:43 AM
There is no way that is 30'. That circle can't be more than 10' in diameter the way they draw it in proportion to your character.

Is that in halfling feet or warforged feet?

Ganolyn
03-25-2010, 05:06 AM
There is no way that is 30'. That circle can't be more than 10' in diameter the way they draw it in proportion to your character.


I take it back. I just went in and did a proportional measurement. At full extended zoom out my elf was 3" tall. I measured the diameter of the haste circle from top down view and the inside diameter was about 12". Assuming my elf is about 6' tall the diameter of the circle is about 20'-30'. So if they are using the radius of that to indicate PB/SA range it is only half (or less) of what it should be.