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ShadowHawke
03-19-2010, 10:33 AM
Not looking for a flamewar. I am just trying to understand why playing a class who is an obvious hybrid, being forced into a stigma, a certain role?

Say I am playing a FvS (dont have one just yet.. but almost), and sure I grab a healing spell, but I am in medium armor swinging away with my sword(s). I can cast offensive, defensive and attack spells, and hack away at enemies, so why is group invite (especially being number 3 or 4 in a group) dependant on whether or not I am a "healer"

I have seen this happen a lot.

Why can't a FvS be looked at initially as a potential secondary healer/ spellsword? Instead of ... oh he casts divine spells, so he is a healbot.

Just looking for input.


The reason is I am feeling a bit stand offish with playing one. Ideally he is the closest thing to a spellsword I can get to. I would rather play a battle wizard, but that isn't here.

I suck at healing... but I don't want to be removed from groups cause of my sad ability, though I am an excellent player. Not me saying that, but from what I have been told on my wizard.

Zenako
03-19-2010, 10:39 AM
The reason is that most groups looking only for a healer, are looking from someone willing to be the crutch to support their ineffective play.

Good groups will not care.

ShadowHawke
03-19-2010, 10:45 AM
Well, I mean, I can kinda understand that when a cleric is invited in the group, and he turns out to not be a "healer" and is a battle cleric, ok. Moreso if he refuses to heal. But a cleric dresses up in heavy armor and a shield, pops out some amazing spells.

But a FvS is a warrior who casts spells... it's like a Paladin who can cast level 9 cleric spells. You dont expect a paladin to be a healer right? You expect them to fight and give off whatever buffs they have to help the cleric from draining their spell points.

Or am I way off on this?

GeneralDiomedes
03-19-2010, 10:57 AM
Because you have healing spells .. it's not any more complicated than that. Healing spells save people $$$ and time, even well equipped vets (if you are spouting cure serious pot nonsense, you aren't thinking of hard enough quests). Bottom line - if you want to PUG as a non-healing FvS, don't slot any healing spells, pretend you are deaf and ******** .. or only join groups which already have a dedicated healer.

Also, F2P has cause an influx of new players. It's like the game was at launch - people don't dip a toe into a quest without a rogue and a healer. I don't look down at these folks because I remember my first few months playing the game.

Impaqt
03-19-2010, 11:05 AM
I see more people assume a FvS is NOT a healer than do nowadays.

a FvS should be able to help heal people in the group. SAME as a cleric. neither one should ever be used as a Crutch to justify bad play.

vVAnjilaVv
03-19-2010, 11:47 AM
Comparing a FvS's melee output to a Paladins is a little off......and I really don't think a FvS has the cpapabilty to be good at both melee and offensive casting, however they do have the ability to be good at melee and healing.

At lower levels sure u may get away with melee and ofensive casting, at higher levels tho u usually have to specialize in one or the other to be effective, and FvS just simply do not have the feats for both IMO.

My FvS is a GTWF/Healer. I didn't bother putting anything into casting offensive spells because I went max str and wanted a decent con and I simply wouldn't have the feats for it after spending 3 on the TWF, quicken, toughness, IC: Slashing. I can still melee tho, I just go where the battle is and throw mass cures while I am swinging away. Works very well.

clanqui
03-19-2010, 11:50 AM
Or am I way off on this?

Yes.

An fvs and a cleric have comparable melee ability, and neither is anywhere close to a true melee for dps, and the fvs has better casting (and therefore healing) ability. If you want to base this on ability, then the fvs is better situated to be a healer.

Aaxeyu
03-19-2010, 11:50 AM
Well, I mean, I can kinda understand that when a cleric is invited in the group, and he turns out to not be a "healer" and is a battle cleric, ok. Moreso if he refuses to heal. But a cleric dresses up in heavy armor and a shield, pops out some amazing spells.

But a FvS is a warrior who casts spells... it's like a Paladin who can cast level 9 cleric spells. You dont expect a paladin to be a healer right? You expect them to fight and give off whatever buffs they have to help the cleric from draining their spell points.

Or am I way off on this?

Yes, you are way off.

FS are no less healers than clerics are, and clerics are no less warriors than FS are.
None of them can be called "a paladin with level 9 cleric spells".

A FS who only melee and doesn't heal when needed is just a big waste of space.

ShadowHawke
03-19-2010, 12:03 PM
I apologize, it is clear I was not concise in my conveying of thoughts.

When I say healer, I mean being primary healer.

Why can they not be supplemental healers? Or if they are , is it a bad thing.

clanqui
03-19-2010, 01:16 PM
You can play your character as anything you want. You can make a pure sorc tank if you want.

It just won't be that good.

Pure fvs are not particularly good melee fighters. They do usable melee dps if specced for it, but not any better than clerics and not anywhere near a true melee class. OTOH, no class heals better than an FvS does, and only clerics can heal as well. Unlike clerics, you don't have to take cure spells, but it comes down to why in the world wouldn't you?

There is nothing wrong with healing while you melee, and in fact it's a good choice (except in a few raid type situations), but that is true whether you play a cleric or an fvs.

Nick_RC
03-19-2010, 02:01 PM
The answer is this;

A FVS is one of those combined arms characters. B+s in all areas to make an A+ character. For example- They are subpar melees if u only do that. They are subpar team mates if they ONLY heal (certain raids on certain dificulties excluded). They are subpar if they only throw BB and attempt to cc and nuke(I.e a non healer).

It's the combination of it all that makes a fvs great. You heal to help ur group out. U melée too help ur group out. You cc/nuke to help ur group out. A decent player can do 2 of the three options well. A great player can do all 3 if specced for it. An exceptional player will do all 3 so seamlessly everything just becomes that much easier.

Hope this helps some.

N

Nick_RC
03-19-2010, 02:07 PM
Comparing a FvS's melee output to a Paladins is a little off......and I really don't think a FvS has the cpapabilty to be good at both melee and offensive casting, however they do have the ability to be good at melee and healing.

At lower levels sure u may get away with melee and ofensive casting, at higher levels tho u usually have to specialize in one or the other to be effective, and FvS just simply do not have the feats for both IMO.

My FvS is a GTWF/Healer. I didn't bother putting anything into casting offensive spells because I went max str and wanted a decent con and I simply wouldn't have the feats for it after spending 3 on the TWF, quicken, toughness, IC: Slashing. I can still melee tho, I just go where the battle is and throw mass cures while I am swinging away. Works very well.

Pretty much agree with what uve said here. On normal dif u can get away with off casting and melée on a 32p toon. The only exception to what u have said is if u do extensive amounts of TR's to bolster moderate values In each respective field. Oh so time consuming and pretty much forces ddi ation to one character. That character will be very very powerful tho :D

grodon9999
03-19-2010, 02:10 PM
A FS who only melee and doesn't heal when needed is just a big waste of space.

But an FvS who melees AND heals the party is awesome, it's like getting 1.75 guys in one slot.

tomfar72
03-19-2010, 02:49 PM
Keep in mind, people can only pigeonhole you into a role if you let them. The reason ppl are asking if you are a healer is because that's what they are looking for. FvS, regardless of spec, can be very good healers if they want. They are definately not like paladins. My lvl 8 pally can get to just over 100 SP, my lvl 10 melee FvS has just over 1000. Who would you rather have heal? As has been said, most quests don't really require a dedicated healbot. Joining a group as a healer doesn't mean you can't get in there and mix it up and still keep an eye on everyone's health bars. If you don't want to do that, don't. If the group is bad and you find you are having to spend all your time healing, then you have to decide if it is worth it.

People always say that playing a Cleric/FvS has the advantage of always being able to find groups, and it is so true. I have played most other classes, and never get as many invites to groups on them as I do on my FvS, and that's because he CAN heal. Join up, let them know what you are going to do. If they play stupidly, do the best you can to make it through the end of the quest and that's the end of it. If they want you to run other quests, let them know that you will go, but you want the run to go a little smarter than the last one. If they don't listen, carry their stones and finish the quest yourself, but don;t let them dictate to you how to play your character. FvS/Cleric = healer, not Healbot.

Spindrake
03-26-2010, 03:11 PM
Not looking for a flamewar. I am just trying to understand why playing a class who is an obvious hybrid, being forced into a stigma, a certain role.

Because that role is the only role you actually excel in, in a group, if you want to mix in melee.
Solo, you can do whatever you want and it probably works. In groups though, you are faced with:

If you go all-out in any one of these three categories it might be something like:
FvS MAX DPS Build is probably around <=40% of other DPS focused classes/builds.
FvS MAX Healing Build is top-tier healing in DDO (along with Cleric) (call it 100%)
FvS MAX Offensive Casting build - second tier offensive casting DPS/CC (call it 70%?)

So plug in your example. Max melee (40% DPS), medicore healing by both choice and feat/gear/enhance (40%?), and offensive (cant max both str and wisdom so what...30% here, mostly from BB) That's weak at everything. Besides, if you use SP for self melee buffs, you have less for healing and casting, further widening the gap.

Meanwhile, FvS could easily pick two specialties they are good at:

Near MAX DPS (35%?) and near max healing (90%) (little higher DPS if you count BB)
OR
Near max Off.casting (60%), and near max healing (90%)

These characters are effective healers for any group, and also contribute something in DPS/CC near the max of their class, when healing is not needed. And they also solo very well. If you want better melee and less healing/off. casting, try something like an Axesinger Build. You have supposedly 80% melee dps, good self buffs, OK group buffs, Good group bard song, and supplimental healing (limited). Great soloer too of course.

Or more casting maybe the Tukaw type WF sorc multiclass builds that can pull off melee boosted by guards, and OK offensive casting, and really good self healing. (Seems gear dependant and unique in playstyle...research before trying!)

For FvS, you can certainly play it just as you describe if you solo. But in groups, you may find you'd enjoy something else if you really don't want to heal, because you really won't be that useful to a group otherwise. Then again, if it's all PUGs and friends/guild, who cares :)

AylinIsAwesome
03-27-2010, 01:40 PM
In terms of melee, Favoured Souls are behind other classes.

Barbarians can reach crazy-insane STR modifiers (anyone else remember the pic of the 81 STR Barbarian?), Rangers have Favoured Enemies they do extra damage again, Fighters deal extra damage with their weapon have extended critical range and Paladins deal buckets of extra dice against some of the most common enemies in the game (in addition to have Smites and Divine Sacrifices). And those last three can all attack 10% faster.

Favoured Souls though get as far in terms in melee DPS as a Paladin who didn't take KotC or SoD and doesn't use Smite, Divine Sacrifices or Divine Might.

Sure, you can still contribute to melee DPS, but you'll be behind a melee class, so you can't justify your spot in a group with melee, yet no healing.

Same goes for nuking.

You have a few good nuking spells, the chief one is Blade Barrier, which won't affect stationary targets at all. An almost no spells worth taking at level 1. Compared to an Arcane, your Nimbus of Light deals substantially less damage than a Niac's Cold Ray will (around 15 damage to around 40, with cheap gear at level 3). And even though Niac's can be saved against for no damage, the AoE spell Burning Hands will do at least 15 damage to everything it hits if they save at level 3.

You get your first "good" nuking spells with Searing Light (only half effective versus non-undead) and Holy Smite (only half effective versus non Evil Outsiders), and in that time Arcanes are getting Wall of Fire.

After Blade Barrier, you don't have a lot of other spells that are good at nuking. Harm has good damage, but won't kill anything. Firestorm is Fire damage when most relevant mobs are immune (or highly resistant) to fire, and Cometfall would require you to drop Heal, MCMW or perhaps Harm.

So you can't justify a slot as a pure nuker.

Since you'd need a high WIS to nuke or CC, and a high STR for melee DPS, and a good CHA to actually cast, it's almost impossible to make a "melee DPS/Nuker/CC FvS" (I've never seen one, but if someone can prove me wrong, that'd be pretty cool too).

Since you can't do just one or both of those things together realistically in a group and still justify your spot, you combine one of those with healing.

Then you get a toon who can heal an entire raid group and still hit stuff with a Greatsword/Scimitars/Shortswords/Rapiers, or a toon who can heal an entire raid group while throwing out Greater Commands, Blade Barriers and debuffing the mobs.


Healing is the best thing a FvS can do, and noone can do it better. But at the same time, they shouldn't just be nannybots. The best Favoured Souls can heal, buff and either mix it up in melee or throw some damaging spells as well.

fire-ice
03-28-2010, 07:30 PM
In terms of melee, Favoured Souls are behind other classes.

Sure, you can still contribute to melee DPS, but you'll be behind a melee class, so you can't justify your spot in a group with melee, yet no healing.

Same goes for nuking.

You have a few good nuking spells, the chief one is Blade Barrier, which won't affect stationary targets at all. An almost no spells worth taking at level 1. Compared to an Arcane, your Nimbus of Light deals substantially less damage than a Niac's Cold Ray will (around 15 damage to around 40, with cheap gear at level 3). And even though Niac's can be saved against for no damage, the AoE spell Burning Hands will do at least 15 damage to everything it hits if they save at level 3.

You get your first "good" nuking spells with Searing Light (only half effective versus non-undead) and Holy Smite (only half effective versus non Evil Outsiders), and in that time Arcanes are getting Wall of Fire.

So you can't justify a slot as a pure nuker.

Since you'd need a high WIS to nuke or CC, and a high STR for melee DPS, and a good CHA to actually cast, it's almost impossible to make a "melee DPS/Nuker/CC FvS" (I've never seen one, but if someone can prove me wrong, that'd be pretty cool too).

Since you can't do just one or both of those things together realistically in a group and still justify your spot, you combine one of those with healing.

Healing is the best thing a FvS can do, and noone can do it better. But at the same time, they shouldn't just be nannybots. The best Favoured Souls can heal, buff and either mix it up in melee or throw some damaging spells as well.

Well said!

My "nuker" FvS does considerably less damage/sp (dpsp?) than my sorc, and is totally worthless in melee because I had to dump str to get any of my offensive spells to land. I may actually minor res him so I can max cha to 20 (drow) to maximize sp for better healing.

Effective parties have players who perform different roles. A good rouge build does incredible amounts of DPS, but they're weak in a stand-up fight. They need a good fighter to grab aggro while still dealing damage.

Except a WF, most sorc or wizard do tremendous damage but die quickly if the enemy closes to melee range.

The human brain can only multi-task so much. A good healer allows the other players in the party to focus on what they do best--be it melee, ranged attacks, sneak attacks, or nuking--without having to stop killing the enemy to click on healing pots... all the while taking damage. Those 2 missed attacks while self-healing may allow an enemy or boss to take out another team member!. A good healer empowers team mates to kill the enemy before the rest of the party gets killed. Most non-clerics I know consider "battle clerics" as a wasted party slot.

I'd rather fill a party with characters who play their roles well than maintain a slot for a healer plus a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none FvS. I'd much rather fill that slot with a Bard, who will provide great buffs for everybody!

Scythera
03-28-2010, 07:39 PM
Ima just my two cents worth in here, knowing very well, and I will state for you to know, that I have not been playing ANYWHERE near as long as some of these people. 3 1/2 months total so far. I haven't been through end game, I haven't passed level 16, I don't know the first thing about crafting.
So let me put this.
InMyOppinion. If you don't like it...
Bite me.


Now, first let me say, that, when I decided to make a FvS, I didn't know the first thing about it, and had a particular distaste for casters PERIOD, be it healing or offensive. Anything with spell points made me stray away except Pally's and Rangers. But, as I started with it, I wanted two things. To be a good healer, and a good Off. Caster. So, naturally, a noob with common sense and some MMORPG under his belt, I thought deviding up the Wisdom and Cha (17 each as a Drow) would help be do good. Not the BEST healer, or Off. Caster, but competant in both.
Little did I know,this did nothing.
But, the question I get asked almost INSTANTLY when I enter a Pug at my lvl (13, and it has been this way since lvl 8) Are you a healbot, or caster. Hell, some people when putting up PUGs who still need casters, have FvS up there with Wiz and Sorc, but no Cleric, a sign that they are looking for Off. Spells.
Once again, IMO, a FvS isn't much of a Off. caster until later with BB, Comet, Harm, Slay living, etc. Dmg spells are something I don't get with FvS. I am sure, with all the possible buffs and meta, that some dmg can do great, but I haven't seen it at lower lvls. With Maximize, SmiteIII enhancement, and potencyVI at 30%, my BB does an average of 120-140 with a 170 crit. AMAZING to me having first started with a Pure Bred Trap Monkey who never did more then maybe... 40 dmg with sneak attack.
As well, my heals are pretty good. I focused on them in the lower lvls, easily keeping parties alive. While having Off. and Heals, I sacrificed Buffs. True, buffs are something great, so I took the mains, like Resist, Bless/Aid Mass, Shield Mass, and protection. Other then that, strictly heals and dmg spells.
When you learn how to kite effectively, your BB can be amazing. Do what works for you, and if it works period, parties won't be complaining.

Another thing, if you Multi-Class, a big thing if you don't want to deal with ANY of that drama, take the Secondary-first, so as not to draw any attention to that.

Angelus_dead
03-28-2010, 10:02 PM
Not looking for a flamewar. I am just trying to understand why playing a class who is an obvious hybrid, being forced into a stigma, a certain role?
In what way do you think that the single most powerful healer class is an "obvious" hybrid?

Hint: To find an obvious hybrid, look at bards.


Why can't a FvS be looked at initially as a potential secondary healer/ spellsword?
Have you ever seen a DDO group that wanted to recruit a "secondary healer"?

AylinIsAwesome
03-28-2010, 10:41 PM
[. . .]
With Maximize, SmiteIII enhancement, and potencyVI at 30%, my BB does an average of 120-140 with a 170 crit.
[. . .]

Unfortunately, the Smite enhancement lines do not affect Blade Barrier at all.

xtchizobr
03-29-2010, 01:12 AM
Not looking for a flamewar. I am just trying to understand why playing a class who is an obvious hybrid...

i raged too hard, sorry. FVS is to cleric as sorc is to wizard. any of these hybrids? uhhhh no.

there are no "hybrids" in D&D. you build your character to do what you want it to do. if you can do something, a group has every right to expect and demand that you do it to help.

if you're looking for an arcane spell sword, i recommend you do your homework and roll a warchanter rather than whine that fvs are often asked to contribute some healing.

Bacab
03-29-2010, 06:21 AM
Because that role is the only role you actually excel in, in a group, if you want to mix in melee.
Solo, you can do whatever you want and it probably works. In groups though, you are faced with:

If you go all-out in any one of these three categories it might be something like:
FvS MAX DPS Build is probably around <=40% of other DPS focused classes/builds.
FvS MAX Healing Build is top-tier healing in DDO (along with Cleric) (call it 100%)
FvS MAX Offensive Casting build - second tier offensive casting DPS/CC (call it 70%?)

So plug in your example. Max melee (40% DPS), medicore healing by both choice and feat/gear/enhance (40%?), and offensive (cant max both str and wisdom so what...30% here, mostly from BB) That's weak at everything. Besides, if you use SP for self melee buffs, you have less for healing and casting, further widening the gap.

Meanwhile, FvS could easily pick two specialties they are good at:

Near MAX DPS (35%?) and near max healing (90%) (little higher DPS if you count BB)
OR
Near max Off.casting (60%), and near max healing (90%)

These characters are effective healers for any group, and also contribute something in DPS/CC near the max of their class, when healing is not needed. And they also solo very well. If you want better melee and less healing/off. casting, try something like an Axesinger Build. You have supposedly 80% melee dps, good self buffs, OK group buffs, Good group bard song, and supplimental healing (limited). Great soloer too of course.

Or more casting maybe the Tukaw type WF sorc multiclass builds that can pull off melee boosted by guards, and OK offensive casting, and really good self healing. (Seems gear dependant and unique in playstyle...research before trying!)

For FvS, you can certainly play it just as you describe if you solo. But in groups, you may find you'd enjoy something else if you really don't want to heal, because you really won't be that useful to a group otherwise. Then again, if it's all PUGs and friends/guild, who cares :)

I think you are way off-base on the DPS. Maybe the Human lags behind. But a WF FVS can do about 70% of most melees. A properly specced Elf can do prolly about 65% of a normal DPS. Also Elf that dual-wields is really good at stat-damaging and paralyzers/vorpals/smiters. Though overall you are correct. Pick 2 things and be really good at them.

Also something I have said on my FVS to a Barb when he was mouthing off. You win in DPS...until you are in my backpack.

To the OP...if you do not want to heal...let the party know...or understand that you will be soloing a lot. Which is not a problem...FVS solos extremely well.

Ellyll
03-29-2010, 07:05 AM
Well, this is just my 2 cents, as a new player, from what I have seen so far. Hopefully it will give you a better idea of what "those people" are thinking

What I have noticed is that FvS seem to be able to be good melee. I agree with Bacab, WF and Elven FvS are defiantly > 50% on melee. They are not the best though.

They also get some offensive casting capability, although that also is not the best. (esp if they go melee and use the feats there.)

From everything I have seen so far, they, despite being able to be competent at both melee and offensive casting, can never be the best at either..

That said, they can, bar none, be the best healers in the game. The absolute best. I am saying this as someone with a L 13 cleric myself. Even with mental toughness and the best +sp item I could get so far, I just barely broke 1000 sp. Compared to an FvS pool, that is somewhat pathetic. There is no DC for healing. It just works. And you have more sp that any other healers, period, so you can heal more.

Clerics make the best buffers, imo, as they can swap spells on demand, but that is a different story.

Now, that said, I am not saying you have to heal. You don't. But you will not be the best melee, or the best offensive caster, or the best buffer. Not everyone (myself included) has played the game long enough to be walking around with half a million gold worth of pots at all times. (slight exaggeration, i know, but still...)

Anyway, as I said, I know I am still newish, and that is just what I have seen so far, but maybe that gives you a better idea of what people are thinking when they are "expecting" you to do some healing.


EDIT: Oh, and one more thing, being able to heal very well only takes a few AP, maybe one item slot, and one spell every other level or so. (Being the "best" doesn't take much more...). That takes nothing that I can see away from your melee capability. And, seeing as you have already decided to go melee instead of offensive casting (as doing both is nearly impossible do to feat / DC / Spell Pen issues, as has been mentioned before), you should ne able to find room for the spells without much difficulty.

muffinlad
04-10-2010, 11:24 AM
I think this has already been said, but it bears repeating-

Depending on the type of healer/nuker/melee-type you build as your FvS, you can do all THREE....so, over time, learn to do all three.

A) You are one of the two heal givers in the game that can reach 100% potential. Even if you are at 80%, you will be able to Solo Heal the Shroud on Normal...you have that much mana, and with even mild equipment and focus your heals will be awesome.

B) You have a max 60-70% DPS potential. Even if you are 40% Toss in a few swings to help the melee take down bad guys(or swing a vorpal or two).

C) Blade Barrier, the occasional Holy Smite to blind folks if you have the spell DC, and your light based spells have no resistance, so you can help out sawing away at bosses as needed.

D) Bonus. If your wisdom is decent (and it may not be), you can Crowd Control with Greater Command and Comet Fall.

As mentioned, the great thing about FvS, well played, you can be 170 to 200% value on your team. Learn to do it all....just don't try to do it all at once. Observe the situation, and use your powers as called for by the enemy and group make up.

muffinfvs.