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View Full Version : Introduce the Leadership feat.



Trillea
03-18-2010, 03:10 AM
Here is my suggestion:

Provide the leadership feat as a choice for those that want it. What it would do is this:
You could choose a character class that acts for the most part like a hireling that would serve as your henchman, with the following additions...

It would start at whatever level you took the leadership feat at, and gain XP like a normal character as long as it is in your party. However, if it would at any time be 4 or more levels below you, it would gain levels to be at 3 levels below you. For example, it is level 14, you are level 17. If you leveled to 18, it would gain a level to 15.

As the character leveled you would have full choice of its feats.

If it is a caster you have the choice of at least 2 of its spells per spell level.

The player has full access to editing the "hireling" hotbar with any/all of the abilities available to the henchman.

You can view the henchmen's inventory screen, and can GIVE them equipment but not remove equipment from them. If they already have a piece of equipment in that slot the old one is overwritten, never to be recovered,

The henchman would count as a full character for the purposes of dungeon scaling, but would still not be allowed in raids.

While the henchman was active, you would not be able to use a hireling contract, unless it was a gold seal hireling. If you have a hireling, you could not bring your henchman to the quest.


This would be a huge boon to some of the solo/duoers out there, and also to the RP community.

blitzschlag
03-18-2010, 03:16 AM
imo thats what dual boxing is for. this would be pretty insane powerful to have a caster companion that you really could control...

on the other hand something like in lotro might work. just a kind of standart bearer that gives some bonus to hp/attack/whatever and does some minor fighting.

Kriogen
03-18-2010, 03:39 AM
Ah, something like Guild Wars Hero.

Hireling, under A.I. control, but 'naked', you must give them items. You can also change what kind of skills, spells they use.

I like.

/no if it costs a 'feat'

/signed if its 100% free. Doing a quest or something to unlock is fine. But with some modifications:
- items (weapon, armor) you give to "sidekick", never goes out of your inventory, it is just locked. But it never disapires. Why would it go away? One of the parts i don't like in DDO is the fact that this game is so obsessed with gold. *Thats* the hard part in starting in DDO. MUST have money or your're a gimp.

- item damage is OK

- they can also use potions (scrolls, wands) you have in your inventory and are flaged as 'can be used by sidekick'.

- extra 'regular' hirelings are OK

Therilith
03-18-2010, 04:13 AM
Ah, something like Guild Wars Hero.

Hireling, under A.I. control, but 'naked', you must give them items. You can also change what kind of skills, spells they use.

I like.

/no if it costs a 'feat'

/signed if its 100% free. Doing a quest or something to unlock is fine. But with some modifications:
- items (weapon, armor) you give to "sidekick", never goes out of your inventory, it is just locked. But it never disapires. Why would it go away? One of the parts i don't like in DDO is the fact that this game is so obsessed with gold. *Thats* the hard part in starting in DDO. MUST have money or your're a gimp.

- item damage is OK

- they can also use potions (scrolls, wands) you have in your inventory and are flaged as 'can be used by sidekick'.

- extra 'regular' hirelings are OK

That would be all kinds of overpowered.

Kriogen
03-18-2010, 04:57 AM
That would be all kinds of overpowered.
Why?

Vormaerin
03-18-2010, 09:45 AM
Because you'd take a cleric or wizard for practically free buffs and/or heals. The hirelings that exist now are already massively cheaper than the consumables. Grab a wizard who can cast Haste and Stoneskin and go to town for a lot less than the wands and pots would cost.

And this doesn't even have the few thousand gold of expensives involved in dragging the hirelings around.

flynnjsw
03-18-2010, 09:49 AM
Ah, something like Guild Wars Hero.

Hireling, under A.I. control, but 'naked', you must give them items. You can also change what kind of skills, spells they use.

I like.

/no if it costs a 'feat'

/signed if its 100% free. Doing a quest or something to unlock is fine. But with some modifications:
- items (weapon, armor) you give to "sidekick", never goes out of your inventory, it is just locked. But it never disapires. Why would it go away? One of the parts i don't like in DDO is the fact that this game is so obsessed with gold. *Thats* the hard part in starting in DDO. MUST have money or your're a gimp.

- item damage is OK

- they can also use potions (scrolls, wands) you have in your inventory and are flaged as 'can be used by sidekick'.

- extra 'regular' hirelings are OK

Notice the title of the thread? Leadership in D&D is a Feat. It would not be free (if they ever implemented it, which imo they won't).

Cyr
03-18-2010, 09:55 AM
lets see here.

Benefits:
* Customizable twink hirelings
* Grows as you use them, making them feel like an extension of your character
* Cheaper then hirelings
* Much more useful then a standard hireling
* Adds more power to solo/duo teams

Cons:
* Coding time. This would be fairly big
* data base use. Turbine has taken the stance of charging for this of late with character slot additions and shared banks. My feeling is they would want to charge for this also since it would take about the same space as a normal character.
* Have to use a feat for this. This actually does matter since it makes your character weaker in raids and in full groups then they would be otherwise. On a fighter it is marginal, but on many other toons a feat is a huge thing to lose.

With all that considered I really do like the idea. It would feel more like dnd which is a good thing. However, with the coding time and the problem of having a weaker toon in harder content (full group/raids) I am over the line to...

/not signed

Anderei
03-18-2010, 09:56 AM
there goes the permanent hirelings suggestion once agian, but its flavored differently, at least.

--
before doing anything of these might give rangers their animal they DnD wise typically should have.

flynnjsw
03-18-2010, 10:00 AM
there goes the permanent hirelings suggestion once agian, but its flavored differently, at least.

--
before doing anything of these might give rangers their animal they DnD wise typically should have.

Wiz/Sorc their familiars, clerics their Domains, etc...

Anderei
03-18-2010, 10:04 AM
Hmm, I don't see familiars in quests doing well, at least without some serious rules alteration. Permanent INT damage when they die? Ouch. Players would run amock (oh yes, I off topic much)

flynnjsw
03-18-2010, 10:08 AM
Hmm, I don't see familiars in quests doing well, at least without some serious rules alteration. Permanent INT damage when they die? Ouch. Players would run amock (oh yes, I off topic much)

Well (still off-topic) most of the time familirars pretty much were forgotten in all of the games I was ever in. About the only time I ever really saw one come into play involved a player, a badly placed fireball, and another players scouting familiar. It was funny for everyone but the character that lost the familiar.

Vormaerin
03-18-2010, 10:14 AM
there goes the permanent hirelings suggestion once agian, but its flavored differently, at least.

--
before doing anything of these might give rangers their animal they DnD wise typically should have.

I don't understand why people insist on having the good things they don't get from p&p, but never think of the bad things they aren't getting from p&p...

Yeah, rangers don't get animals. On the other hand, they get BOTH twf and archery specs. They also get full class level for casting spells, instead of half.

Do you really want your doggie more than you want 30pt resists and +5 barkskin, which rangers don't get in p&p?

Anderei
03-18-2010, 10:18 AM
Do you really want your doggie more than you want 30pt resists and +5 barkskin, which rangers don't get in p&p?

as p&p fetischist of course! :)

personally I'd hope at one point they fix ranger that way, you can only make "new style" rangers, and the ones who got extra for of the missing animal are legacies.

flynnjsw
03-18-2010, 10:20 AM
I don't understand why people insist on having the good things they don't get from p&p, but never think of the bad things they aren't getting from p&p...

Yeah, rangers don't get animals. On the other hand, they get BOTH twf and archery specs. They also get full class level for casting spells, instead of half.

Do you really want your doggie more than you want 30pt resists and +5 barkskin, which rangers don't get in p&p?

Heh, it's the same for Paladins. I would not sacrifice my full caster levels for a mount. Ever.

Missing_Minds
03-18-2010, 10:24 AM
before doing anything of these might give rangers their animal they DnD wise typically should have.

Given the fact we are given BOTH schools of combat.... I'm content to not have my animal in trade.

Ghoste
03-18-2010, 10:30 AM
That would be all kinds of overpowered.
As compared to the hirelings that come with Docent of Defiance as default gear? Really? Or maybe the ones that already come with stacks of mana potions that would cost you a fortune to supply them with a thousand times greater than what you paid them?

Kriogen
03-18-2010, 12:31 PM
As compared to the hirelings that come with Docent of Defiance as default gear? Really? Or maybe the ones that already come with stacks of mana potions that would cost you a fortune to supply them with a thousand times greater than what you paid them?
Yes, what he said.

A permanent hireling would come 'naked', no free mana pots. Not like the current ones.

A permanent hireling would be more versatile, adaptable if you give him/her something, but would actually cost more in gold. Nice weapons, armor, rings, potions (like mana pots) are not for free.

And theres also a 'cookie' for turbine if this is implemented. Mana pots are available in eStore. Nice for Wizards and nice for Barbarians with Cleric sidekick :)

There also an 'educational' side. Those mana-sponges would realize how expensive Cleric can be in PUGs :p

NuclearCoffee
03-18-2010, 02:42 PM
no bad idea

Vormaerin
03-18-2010, 03:28 PM
Yes, what he said.

A permanent hireling would come 'naked', no free mana pots. Not like the current ones.

A permanent hireling would be more versatile, adaptable if you give him/her something, but would actually cost more in gold. Nice weapons, armor, rings, potions (like mana pots) are not for free.

And theres also a 'cookie' for turbine if this is implemented. Mana pots are available in eStore. Nice for Wizards and nice for Barbarians with Cleric sidekick :)

There also an 'educational' side. Those mana-sponges would realize how expensive Cleric can be in PUGs :p

Oh noes... Gold and "Vendor trash" gear is hardly an onerous expense. In the short run they might be more expensive, but not in the long run.

Therilith
03-19-2010, 03:26 AM
As compared to the hirelings that come with Docent of Defiance as default gear?

No, in addition to them:


- extra 'regular' hirelings are OK

and at no cost, monetary or personal.

epochofcrepuscule
03-19-2010, 04:28 AM
I think you are all forgetting... "I need this for my hireling" in a raid. We all know the trade window would be different... I am also positive, unless they tested it out right away (i highly doubt), that the first month or two you would be able to trade them bound loot... like raid gear.

Kyrn
03-19-2010, 04:57 AM
Seriously though, is anyone going to make anything other than an evasive heals/DV only cleric, or pure trapsmith? I don't think the current hireling AI is capable of much more than that...

Anderei
03-19-2010, 05:01 AM
Give me five hirelings and remove the need to log into a server and make it a solo game. </irony>

Vormaerin
03-19-2010, 05:04 AM
can do that already, Anderei. You just have to use the store points to get them, not game gold.

Kriogen
03-19-2010, 05:47 AM
Give me five hirelings and remove the need to log into a server and make it a solo game. </irony>
People want to play the game. If they pay RL money, they want to play. Waiting for others is not "play the game".

There are many reasons why people prefere to solo, don't want to wait, don't want to group with 'zerg vets', don't want to group with 'brain dead noobs', have lots of RL interupts and don't want to be burden to others because of that, not in the mood today, ...

Just read forums, must have this stuff, must have that build or you suck, will check myDDO if you're good enough, do this or else... bla, bla, bla ... For example, my Battle Clerics prefer to solo. I like to chop but others just want my heals.

Reasons are many. But people have money and are willing to pay for a good show.

DDO:U added dungeon scaling and hirelings and subs doubled, revenue up by 500%. Solo/casual friendly MMO games are more profitable.

Anderei
03-19-2010, 05:58 AM
"So many MMOs would be great games if there weren't those pesty other players"

About DDO:U don't u think it has more to do with f2p modell than "hirelings" and "dungeonalert"? Take care which variable you attribute what to, doubt their revenue would have changed noticable if this two things were all the changes...

Aschbart
03-20-2010, 06:52 AM
I like the idea of introducing Leadership, with all the costs and ramifications this might entail. No doubt this would need some tweaking to fit it into the game, and like in PnP, not every character would be equally suited for that feat, as your character's reputation would determine the maximum level of your henchman.

A henchman does have his own equipment, and no this should not remain in the leader's inventory. this is the cost you have to pay, just like you pay hirelings to come along for a short time.

That said, I also agree to the sentiment that familiars and specifically animal companions go along the same lines, and IMHO a higher priority than henchmen! It's bad enough paladins have to go without their steeds - it is much like in the Holy Grail movie from Monty Python. Paladins get some clickies to clack as a replacement for actual horses - this is *not* the same thing at all! Paladins in DDO are an entirely new class, they've got close to nothing left from the original, certainly not their flavor.

I do understand that the whole issue of riding animals would be difficult to implement, but animal companions were implemented in NWN, why not in DDO? Once animal companions are there, henchmen wouldn't be such a huge step.

gavagai
03-20-2010, 07:45 AM
As someone who both solos extensively on some characters, and parties extensively on others...

... I think this is a "cool idea" that doesn't really reach the level of "good idea."

Henchman AI is the biggest reason this would flop. I would imagine 90% of hirelings currently hired are healer cleric/wizard types that are planted firmly at the beginning of the quest and left there. Mobs aggro disproportionately on hirelings, and hirelings get creamed within seconds. It would literally be twice as nice to just dual-box if you wanted two active and non-suicidal player avatars to control at once.

Second, without a **pause** feature (like you get on single-player console RPGs) you cannot easily control two players enough.

Third, if released there would be immediate outcry to make them more powerful. 3 levels lower than you, whether its a level 4 Barb with a level 1 healer or a Level 20 Cleric with a Level 17 Barb, is still too weak to seriously contribute DPS and too squishy and stupid to provide real-time healing support. Admittedly, something that costs a feat should be worth more than a paid hireling of your own level; but there's no real way to implement that.

You don't pay hirelings to join you; you pay them to sit put and leave you alone. :P

BrinLondo
03-20-2010, 10:04 AM
Reminds me of the hirelings from Diablo II. Like the idea:

* wouldn't care if it cost a feat. could also argue that a PC who had leadership ought to provide some bonus tot he party at large too.
* maybe a class bonus? (a la followers for 'name' levels characters going back to PnP)
* love the idea of equipping them ourselves.
* like the idea of them progressing.

Very concerned about the poor AI of hirelings. I think they've gotten worse since I started playing back in October of 2009. They weren't fantastic before and now I find them completely useless.

The OP does bring a number of thoughts to my mind about potential feats, if not skills:

trailblaze (rngr): a "+" to party movement overall
spellcraft (wiz): gives you preview of what's on that shelf, in the adventurer's back pack, etc before you pick it up.
loot (rogue): providing a 10% bonus to gold or "+" to a chest

There's a ton more than could be incorporated into the game, but slowly and measured. Good though from the OP.

Trillea
03-21-2010, 03:08 AM
As someone who both solos extensively on some characters, and parties extensively on others...

... I think this is a "cool idea" that doesn't really reach the level of "good idea."

Henchman AI is the biggest reason this would flop. I would imagine 90% of hirelings currently hired are healer cleric/wizard types that are planted firmly at the beginning of the quest and left there. Mobs aggro disproportionately on hirelings, and hirelings get creamed within seconds. It would literally be twice as nice to just dual-box if you wanted two active and non-suicidal player avatars to control at once.

Second, without a **pause** feature (like you get on single-player console RPGs) you cannot easily control two players enough.

Third, if released there would be immediate outcry to make them more powerful. 3 levels lower than you, whether its a level 4 Barb with a level 1 healer or a Level 20 Cleric with a Level 17 Barb, is still too weak to seriously contribute DPS and too squishy and stupid to provide real-time healing support. Admittedly, something that costs a feat should be worth more than a paid hireling of your own level; but there's no real way to implement that.
This would be the MINIMUM level that the henchman would be, if you grouped with it often, it could easily be the same level as you, or maybe just 1 behind.

You don't pay hirelings to join you; you pay them to sit put and leave you alone. :P

Just for clarification there.