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View Full Version : Cosmetic Items in DDO: Poll - Re: State of Play.



AestorTheKnight
03-17-2010, 04:16 PM
Thankyou soooo much Turbine for finally addressing the long running issue of Character Equipment Appearance in DDO, as mentioned in the State of Play address by Fernando Paiz! :) :)

State of Play wrote:
"We have also recently created technology to support a new kind of cosmetic item that will alter your appearance when you equip it, but will let you keep the stat benefits from the last item you had equipped. We have only had time to play with this tech on a few items, but eventually you’ll see us evolve this into a full offering of cosmetic outfits and hats. You may have already seen the hat we released for President’s Day, and we have two fun, themed cosmetic helms coming in April."

This is awsome - we as players will finally be able to choose how our characters look, while maintaining the Stats and Abilities from the items we want / need! Cool - Hurray, Thankyou! :)

If that is what you intend to deliver Turbine, I will be forever in your debt and at last able to lay these "Gear Customisation Threads" to Rest.

Or at least... I think thats the state of play is saying... or is it?? Im not actually so sure...

Lets take a closer look at the what the State of Play is suggesting.

"a new kind of cosmetic item that will alter your appearance when you equip it, but will let you keep the stat benefits from the last item you had equipped."

So this denotes an item just like the "Three Cornered Hat". For example. Your character is actually wearing a Minos Legens, but you acquire a Three Cornered Hat and use it. Then your characters outward appearance shows a Three Cornered Hat, while still actually wearing a Minos Legens and gaining its stats / abilities.

So on this basis there will be Special "Cosmetic Items" introduced to the game that will allow you to change your equipments outward appearance to the appearance of the Cosmetic Item. Now assuming these Cosmetic Items already have an appearance associated with them, as with the Three Cornered Hat, does this mean that we will only be able to change our equipments outward appearance to that of a limited number of exclusive items? Or will Turbine introduce a Miscelaneous Cosmetic Item, that is able to acquire the appearance of any in game item?

So what I am really asking is - will the Cosmetic Items be limited to a set of Exclusive Cosmetic Items available only in the DDO Store? Or will it be that Turbine will add a number of Exclusive Cosmetic Items AND also Introduce a Generic Miscelaneous Cosmetic Item capable of recreating already existing in game item appearances?

This is an important question for me. Because herein lies the difference between "More of the Same Problem"
or the "Solution to the problem".

More of the same problem = The addition of Exclusive Cosmetic Items only, thereby increaseing the number of appearances available to characters, but still not actually giveing the players full control over how their characters look. Because although their will be more appearances to choose from, the players will still not be able to choose
any appearance they desire, but still limited to a relatively small range of appearances.

Solution to the problem = The addition of Miscelaneous Cosmetic Items which allow the players to utilise any available appearance currently in DDO, thereby exercising full control over their characters appearance. And with the addition of Exclusive Cosmetic Items for extra choice in character appearance.

So which is it to be? From what can be gleaned from the State of Play, this question remains unanswered.
Also the State of Play makes mentions of Costumes and Hats, but not of Shields or Weapons... so these two factors remain unresolved. And will the players be able to change the colour of already existing items? Or will the explusive items come in a range of colours?

-----

A Poll: Please Vote: A, B, C, or D

I would like to see in DDO:

A: The ability to customise my characters appearance with any and all available appearances currently in DDO AND with additional Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances.

B: Additional Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances will offer my character all he or she requires to fully customise their appearance.

C: The ability to customise my characters appearance with already existing equipment appearances is more important than new Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances.

D: Im happy with the range of appearances already in DDO.

-----

So please choose A, B, C or D, as to which statement most reflects your view feelings about the new Cosmetic Items forthcoming in DDO. And of course please feel free to discuss this matter and add your own ideas and comments. Thanks for reading and really a huge thankyou to Turbine for finally addressing this issue! :D I really hope you address it with Player freedom, choice and variety as your top prioritys.

Kind regards,
Aestor The Knight :)

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Links to other Threads discussing this Issue:

Cosmetic Changes: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=237412

Skin Customisation - Further Thoughts: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=220468

Equipment Skin Customisation - Turbine?: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=235139

Hellllboy
03-17-2010, 04:20 PM
A: The ability to customise my characters appearance with any and all available appearances currently in DDO AND with additional Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances.

This

Return_To_Forever
03-17-2010, 04:25 PM
A: The ability to customise my characters appearance with any and all available appearances currently in DDO AND with additional Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances.

Vormaerin
03-17-2010, 05:35 PM
No offense, but this is a rigged poll. A is the only legitimate choice as its currently configured. You aren't accounting for the development costs. A more accurate poll would be something like (yes, I'm making the numbers up):

A) The ability to customise my characters appearance with any and all available appearances currently in DDO AND with additional Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances. In about a year

B) Additional Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances will offer my character all he or she requires to fully customise their appearance. In mod 5.

C) The ability to customise my characters appearance with already existing equipment appearances is more important than new Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances. In mod 7.

D) Im happy with the range of appearances already in DDO and we get more top end gear with unique appearances.


Obviously, we don't know how long this stuff would take, but its pretty obvious that your A, B, C, D are not equal dev effort so the trade offs need to be included as best we can.

Rasczak
03-18-2010, 12:40 AM
I want suits, I especially want a Barney suit. Nothing could be more intimidating than outsiders getting beaten by a fluffy purple fat guy......

Along the lines of, buy this suit, everything changes to match it.
And then the once off item, shields, weapons, armour, helmets. (It's only those 4 which show up anyway)

Trillea
03-18-2010, 12:44 AM
I want suits, I especially want a Barney suit. Nothing could be more intimidating than outsiders getting beaten by a fluffy purple fat guy......

Along the lines of, buy this suit, everything changes to match it.
And then the once off item, shields, weapons, armour, helmets. (It's only those 4 which show up anyway)

If this happened, I would change my stance to be all for PVP, and make challenges mandatory, so that anyone that wore it I could beat the **** out of... DIE BARNEY DIE!!

MRH
03-18-2010, 12:50 AM
We need a way to change colors of gear in the stone of change.... how about that , need to "change" your armor from silver to red.... drop it in the stone of change with some blood fungus and boom , red armor. Want green use a green lush worm or something like that.

I think we need more options for the stone of change IMO.

I like how my minos looks, i dont want to run around with a 3 cornered hat covering up my minos.... now you have an extra item in inv to mask your item. Now do that for all your items.... are you giving us more backpack space soon too i hope?

Just make it to where we can change colors with ingredients we find....

Ghoste
03-18-2010, 01:20 AM
A)
There are plenty of nice looking items in game already. Anything extra should be a bonus, an increase in choice, not a reduction.

Vormaerin
03-18-2010, 09:49 AM
I know what you are getting at Ghoste, but the fact is the current choice is 'zero'. All those nice appearances will have to be transformed into cosmetic items, either like the hat or by giving us a cosmetic slot system like Lotro has. So anything they make available, whether in the game currently or not, is an increase in choice.

Cedwin
03-18-2010, 09:59 AM
E) The option that will make Turbine the most amount of money.

Astria
03-18-2010, 10:15 AM
E. I'm so busy killing other stuff, I didn't realize my own character had an appearance.

AestorTheKnight
03-18-2010, 05:11 PM
Hey Vormaerin! Thanks for your reply. No offence taken and I understand what you are saying, however perhaps you have misread the intention of my Poll? With your points about Development Time and Cost taken into account let me explain more clearly my reasons for this poll.

This poll is not intended to question the short term / near future development of Cosmetic Items in DDO, or to imply that Turbine are "not doing enough" to solve this issue in the short term, but instead to query and request clarification of the "Long Term" development goals of Cosmetic Items in DDO. It is to ask what the "End Result" or "Final Implementation" of Cosmetic Items in DDO to be, IE how will Cosmetic Items work in DDO when they are fully realised and implemented.

The reason I am querying what the final result for Cosmetic Items in DDO will be is because the State of Game address does in no way clarify what the final goal of this development drive will be. And from the approach that Turbine have chosen to take to addressing this matter it looks, sadly at present, as though they are more focused on delivering ONLY Exclusive Cosmetic Items via the DDO store, and perhaps not addressing the requests of the players to make already existant in game gear customisable. So really the purpose of the Poll is to hopefully show Turbine what the players want - namely choice A) I presume. And to encourage the Devs to concentrate on that, as well as on Exclusive Cosmetic Items.

To answer your assertion Vormaerin that option A) could be available in "about a year". Sure if it takes them 1 year to implement that, then that is fine with me, as long as A) will eventually be implemented. My concern and the ultimate reason for this Poll is that at present I am worried that the Devs have no intention to implement A) at all...

So the Poll is to show hopefully that A) is something the players want, eventually. In that respect it is not a loaded Poll in my humble oppinion :)

To answer MRH - please see the Link "Skin Customisation - Further Thoughts" at the bottom of my OP in this Thread. That Post discusses the use of The Stone of Change to change armour colours and skins.

To answer Cedwin - It is my oppinion that A) would make Turbine the most money :)

Kind regards,
Aestor The Knight. :)

Vormaerin
03-19-2010, 12:20 AM
Well, I think that saying "A" is what the players want is pretty much stating the obvious. Either players don't want anything at all or they want everything, as long as you don't factor in costs. Its like asking whether you want a luxury car or a subcompact when you don't have to make the payments, buy the gas, or cover the insurance. :) I'm sure you can find someone who would still drive a civic instead of a lexus or bmw, but it won't be many.

K_0tiC
03-19-2010, 12:35 AM
All your gonna get is items in the cash shop that cover what your wearing now just like the hats do, anything more is a dream you can keep dreaming.
They want to make money and make it as fast as possible, any normal business does I dont see them working on something thats going to take months/years to reallow you to totally adjust your charcters appearance without some kind of business advantage. Now if they said to you where gonna raise monthly fees for ddo to $25 a month then sure you could expect changes like that since there getting paid for it. But current state of game and what they have shown they are doing with cosmetics already (see hats in the ddo store) expect more of the same for things like overalls to cover armour etc.

Not that it matters alot anyway since you either see the rear end of your charcter or see nothing but whats on your screen if you play in fps mode so I for one dont see it as a big deal or worth wasting my own money on in the ddo store.

Kyrn
03-19-2010, 12:48 AM
E: More body types.

All other races have 2 (one per gender), WF only has one.

AestorTheKnight
03-19-2010, 12:05 PM
To K Otic - And anyone else who thinks Changeing Appearance on characters is a complex technical issue, that requires months / years of Codeing by developers. Im afraid that is complete nonsense :D

Every item in DDO that has an effect on your characters appearance - IE - Armour, Shield, Helmet, Weapon
has 2 data sets associated with it.

Data Set 1 = The Stats and Abilities of the Item. - These data sets interact with the game world, changeing your characters interaction with in game objects and physics. For example Armour Check, AC, Intimidate Skill, To Hit etc etc etc

Data Set 2 = The Appearance of the Item - The outward appearance of the item, its shape, texture and colour.

These 2 Data Sets are not the same, and really have very little to do with each other. For anyone who has done even the most basic 3D Modeling with programs suchs as Blender 3D or 3D Studio Max, and practiced applying Skins, UV Maps, or Textures to 3D models will know that changeing the appearance of an object in a 3D environment is as simple as changing the source file that the 3D object references to gain its Skin, UV Map or Texture.

So for example you have a set of +5 Full Plate. The +5 Full Plate is constructed out of 2 data sets.

Data Set 1: The Stats and Abilities of the Item = Its a +5 Full Plate, tis Armour Bonus is +13. Its Max Dex is 1, its armour check is - 5 etc etc.

Data Set 2 - The Appearance of the Item - To change the Appearance of the item is as simple as changeing the code from:

a) Model = 3D Mesh Number #125b ---> Changed to: 3D Mesh Number # 101c | This changes the Armour Model

b) Body UV Map = Body Texture Map #25a ---> Changed to: Body Texture Map #48a | This changes the Underskin UV Map applied to the characters body.

c) Model Colour = 3D Model Colour <RGB=#0000ff> ---> Changed to 3D Model Colour <RGB=#aa00bb> | Changes the colour of the 3D Mesh.

So basically a couple of lines of Code.

To implement full Customisation of Armour, Shields, Helmets, and Weapons appearance in DDO is 100x easier and simpler to implement than for example the Risia Ice Altar Crafting introduced with Update 3. At this time I have no idea why Turbine are not interested in implementing it in a more comprehensive way than a few Exclusive Items in the DDO store since it is obviously something the players want and have been asking for for years now. :)

tomfar72
03-19-2010, 12:21 PM
I'm going to vote A. However, I do think that not all available models should be available as a skin for other things. I think some hard to find/hard to make items should have their own unique skins that can't be put on other items. Lets take Minos Legens for example. If you like the look of it, great, leave it like it is. If you don't, you can make it look like a cone wizard hat or whatever. However, I don't think you should be able to make a lvl 4 hat of steady spellcasting look like a Minos Legens..it takes alot to make a Minos, and would cheapen it if you could put that model on something else.

Faelyndel
03-19-2010, 09:37 PM
I'm going with A because, you know, shoot for the moon the worst that happens is you land in the stars. So obviously one should ask for as much as they can, and hope the devs can at least give them some of what they're asking for (with an example such as this anyways; half-assed attempts at some things reeeally wouldn't fix the problem).

Regardless, I think that any customization Turbine can give us is a bonus, so even if it's limited to a certain options (as cosmetic gear is currently implented such as the Three-Cornered Hat example) I'd be happy.

Vormaerin
03-19-2010, 10:08 PM
To implement full Customisation of Armour, Shields, Helmets, and Weapons appearance in DDO is 100x easier and simpler to implement than for example the Risia Ice Altar Crafting introduced with Update 3. At this time I have no idea why Turbine are not interested in implementing it in a more comprehensive way than a few Exclusive Items in the DDO store since it is obviously something the players want and have been asking for for years now. :)

I'm inclined to believe Floon and the other Turbine artists rather than you. And he has stated its a non trivial task, even for shields in LotRO (which already has cosmetic slots for several gear slots).

AestorTheKnight
03-20-2010, 01:56 AM
Who is Floon? And when and where have Turbine artists stated that it is a non-trivial task? I do believe you that they have said that, just hopeing you can post a link maybe, or direct me to the article where they state this.

Anyways it is my genuine oppinion that A) is not at all difficult to implement and could be introduced to DDO easily in a very short space of time. Let me now explain why I think that.

About 2 years ago I contacted a Game Master in DDO via the Gameplay Support Ticket System and explained my dilemna to them. I had looted a set of +5 Adamantine Full Plate from a chest which had an incredibly ugly skin/appearance. So ugly in fact that I definitely would not wear it on my character. However I had also purchased another set of +3 Adamantine Full Plate from the House Kunderak Armour Vendor.

The +3 Adamantine Full Plate had a beautiful skin, identical in appareance to the Elf Crafted Full Plate if you are aware of it, but coloured purple instead of blue. So I politely requested the Game Master if it would be possible to simply switch the skin / appearance of the 2 armours, giving the +5 Adamantine Full Plate the skin of the +3 and vice versa.

The Game Master was not busy and so politely agreed to help me with my request. He asked me to unequip the +5 Adamantine Full Plate, and equip the +3, which I then did. He told me to wait a moment while he performed some operations. Then told me to re-equip the +5 adamantine full plate, which I did.

As if by magic the Game Master had changed the skin of the +5 Adamantine Full Plate to acquire the identical appearance to the +3. My problem was solved by this kind Game Master!! My + 5 adamantine full plate now had the skin I wanted for it!

So what is the moral of this true story? This is the technical information I can surmise from it.

All generic items in DDO are coded like this.
a) Equipment Type and Statistic Code Set - Contains the data about what kind of armour it is in fact, IE is it a Full Plate, is it a Splint Mail or a Leather Armour. A set of Statistics such as "Armour Bonus" "Max Dex Bonus" and "Armour Check Penalty" are included in this data set and associated with specific types of armour.

b)The Enchanted Bonus "+ Value" of an item is contained in this data set and also any additional enchantments on the items such as "Lesser Cold Resistance" or "Axeblock" etc etc.

c) The Armour Model and Underskin and Colour Code Set - Contains the data about equipments appearance with 3 seperate code Tags. These 3 Code tags signify 1) The Armour Model 2) The Underskin 3) The Armour Model Colour.

Now. Code sets a) b) and c) exist independently of oneanother in most cases. That is, you can change one of these code sets without changeing the other. This is exactly what the Game Master did for me in this situation. He changed the identity of Code Set c) on the +5 Adamantine Full Plate while leaving Code Set a) and b) as it was.

Upon further discussion with the same Game Master at a later date he showed me that it was also possible to change the Code Tags within the Code Sets. For example he was able to change the Colour Code Tag 3), changeing the colour of the Armour Plates on a suit of armour without changeing its model, underskin or statistics
in anyway.

In yet another discussion with the same Game Master he explained to me that this method of changeing armour skins was " as far as he knew " only possible with generic equipment. He explained that Named Items which had
non generic values in Code Set a) were difficult to change in this way. For example. The Game Master tried to change the skin / appearance of a suit of Dragontouched Armour, but explained to me that it did not work properly and that the reason for this was because in the case of Dragontouched Armour for some reason Code Sets a) and c) had been bound up or associated with each other. And he further explained that he thought the reason for this was because the Dragontouched Armour contained unusual statistic in Code Set a). For example Dragontouched Armour has a basic +15 Armour Bonus, instead of the Generic +13 for a set of +5 Full Plate. But he went on to show that it was possible to change the skin appearance of a Dragontouched Robe because it did not contain non-generic statistics in Code Set a). A Dragontouched Robe is for all purposes a standard robe, but gains its abilities from its Enchantments contained in Code Set b).

So what does this all tell us? One it shows that for generic equipment the mechanics for changeing Armour Skins already exists inside the DDO Client, and is a feature the Game Masters are able to manipulate useing their Suite of Game Tools. All that has to be done to make this method available to the players is to generate a method for us to use it safely within the Game Client. It also shows that their are some issues with Named and Non-Generic Items that would need to be ironed out. But that this would be as simple as disasociateing code sets a) b) and c) in Named and Non Generic equipment. Which as far as i understand is not a difficult code issue.

Kind regards,
Aestor The Knight :)

AestorTheKnight
03-20-2010, 02:09 AM
With Risia Ice Festival Crafting - you can take a +3 Flaming Longsword and put Icy Burst on it, where upon it changes it outward SFX to appear "icy" instead of flaming.

in This example where the Longsword has Code Sets a) b) and c) in exactly the same way a suit of armour has.
a) = the basic stats of a longsword b) = + 3 enchanted Bonus and Flaming. c) The specific generic model of the Longsword.

And it is changed to

a) unchanged. b) +3 enchanted bonus, flaming, icy burst. c) is changed from flaming to icy.

So code sets b) and c) have changed, leaving code set a) unaffected. I cannot see at all why this same thing is not easily achievable with armour skins. :)

Just my oppinion on what seems a less than complicated matter.

Kromize
03-20-2010, 02:18 AM
A Poll: Please Vote: A, B, C, or D

I would like to see in DDO:

A: The ability to customise my characters appearance with any and all available appearances currently in DDO AND with additional Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances.

B: Additional Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances will offer my character all he or she requires to fully customise their appearance.

C: The ability to customise my characters appearance with already existing equipment appearances is more important than new Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances.

D: Im happy with the range of appearances already in DDO.


A. Now that they have the code to swap item appearances, how hard can it be to implement a generic stone of change ritual to swap the appearances?

Ashurr
03-31-2010, 10:35 AM
A: The ability to customise my characters appearance with any and all available appearances currently in DDO AND with additional Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances.

spifflove
03-31-2010, 10:56 AM
A. any current pc skin 100 tp
B. NPC skin 1000 tp
C. String Bikini 10000 tp
D. Red Sonja chain mail set: Random epic loot

Rameses
03-31-2010, 11:00 AM
Chances are you will not be able to adjust the look of named items.

I am, Rameses!

AestorTheKnight
04-01-2010, 02:56 AM
Chances are you will not be able to adjust the look of named items.

I am, Rameses!

Says who? :)

If you have a developer saying this please link it.

Or if it is just your oppinion. Please justify it. IE why?

Thanks!
AestorTheKnight :)

Terlan
04-05-2010, 02:26 PM
I would like to see in DDO:

A: The ability to customise my characters appearance with any and all available appearances currently in DDO AND with additional Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances.



Caveat - I would be also be happy if I could merely customize generic items (the +5 Plate Armor). Hell I'd even be happy if I could just dye things and see a change when I swapped around my gloves, boots and cloaks!

ahpook
04-05-2010, 02:41 PM
If I understand your choices correctly, I would have to go with

C: The ability to customise my characters appearance with already existing equipment appearances is more important than new Exclusive Cosmetic Item appearances.

I do not want to buy items from the store like bunny hats or 3 cornered hats. I believe that there are already a ton of good looking armors (and maybe helmets) in the game. Using your stone of change model has benefits that out weight the store bought skin model:

They can still charge money for the ingredient to facilitate the swap.
Random loot pulls are still valuable. Right now no random pull will be better than my minos legions or my DT robe from a stat perspective. However, there may be many items which would provide a superior appearance creating some excitement when armor or helmets are found. This excitement does not exist when simply perusing a list of items in the store interface.
You can try on the item before making it the appearance skin for that item. With the store bought items, you can't actually see what it looks like on your character until you have bought it. There is no return policy on bunny hats.
binding the improved appearance to the armor/helmet can take items out of the game as the item used for the appearance can be destroyed in the process removing the item/plat from the game.
binding the improved appearance to the armor/helmet better supports users who item swap their armor or helmet. I can actually make my 2 DT armors look different so that I can recognize which I am wearing.


While choice A supports this model as well it doesn't stress that the appearance swapping via stone of change is far more important than store bought items.

Let's just say no to bunny hats.

AestorTheKnight
04-06-2010, 10:04 AM
Ahpook thanks very much for your post man! Nicely presented and I absolutely agree with all the points you have raised. They are practical, fun from a gaming perspective and focused on making DDO a better game, rather than impractical, gimmicky and ruthlessly capitalising on players commitment to DDO.

I am also of the oppinion that the Appearance Swapping method via the Stone of Change is the simplest, easiest to implement and most user friendly method to allow players to customise the appearance of their own Armour, Helmets, Shields and Weapons.

I must say, as you may have realised from my Original Post in this Thread, that I am very unhappy with the development approach Turbine seems to have taken up with regards allowing players to customise their appearance. Purchasing Cosmetic Items from the DDO store seems cumbersome, unnecesarily complicated, more difficult to code, allowing much less choice for the players and adds nothing to Gameplay.

I will do my very best to rally the community behind supporting an Appearance Customisation system that allows them freedom of choice, without necesarily ransacking their wallet.

Say NO to Gimmicks. Say YES to player creativity and self expression! :)

Anyways, thanks for your support and ideas Ahpook! I was very pleased to read your intelligent reply! :D