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Scarecrow
03-15-2010, 08:46 PM
In the current state of DDO, the only class capable of dealing with traps is the rogue. All of the other classes have some sort of alternative (wizards/sorcerers, clerics/Fvs, and many melee choices.) It would be interesting to see another class that could share some of the responsibities of the Rogue.

There are more than a few that could fit the bill, and wouldn't be too difficult to put into the game (no strange new mechanics). A few that come to mind are:

The Ninja (complete adventurer): Would have a ki bar like the monk. Less skill points than a rogue, but gets bonus to physical skills like jump, tumble as it levels. Also gets special abillities such as invisibility (uses ki) and concealment.

The Scout (Complete Adventurer): Does extra damage while moving. Might make less used feats like shot on the run and spring attack more useful.

The Beguiler (Players Handbook II): Less skills than a rogue, but gains spell progession similiar to a sorc, gets bonus to spells if target is unaware (similar to sneak attack situation) that include increased DC and bonus to overcome SR. Spell list is fairly small.

There are others that would be great, like the artificer. But that class would be much more complicated to add. All of these would be much more straight forward, similar to the favored soul, but would add variety and flavor to the game. I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting also.

vettkinn
03-15-2010, 08:59 PM
It's an okay suggestion comrade :)

An alternative class is always a good thing. /signed and +1

Wyrmnax
03-15-2010, 09:00 PM
1 level of rogue on any class is enough to deal with any traps in the game.

2 levels of rogue gives you evasion.

Most traps are bypassable / ignorable. Just carry enough healing to cure yourself after. They are a small part of DDO. There are very few quests so full of traps that you cant do it withouth a monkey.

I see no point in adding another class just to share trap duties.

SableShadow
03-15-2010, 10:48 PM
An alternative class is always a good thing.

I know a fair number of cleric players who might differ on that point...

QuantumFX
03-15-2010, 10:55 PM
Yes, it would be nice if DDO had Artificers in game.

captain1z
03-15-2010, 10:56 PM
I would like to see an official ninja class. Ive been trying to hash out a monk/rogue ninja hybrid but have yet come up with something I like.

Good idea but just wishful thinking at this point.

Kyrn
03-15-2010, 10:58 PM
I just want a Wiz/Rogue multiclass PrE (aka arcane trickster) which can handle traps/locks/levers at range.

Aashrym
03-15-2010, 11:09 PM
Artificers would be nice. They are part of the campaign setting.

Symar-FangofLloth
03-15-2010, 11:09 PM
I would like to see an official ninja class. Ive been trying to hash out a monk/rogue ninja hybrid but have yet come up with something I like.


Wait for the Ninja Spy PrE for Monks and see if that helps.

But on topic:
I can't see an alternative trap-enabled class being a true option unless one or more of the following occur:

1. There are enough, and hard enough, traps in the game that you *want* a trapmonkey in your group. So now you can take a Rogue or a(n) *insert class here*, depending on what's available and what the quest is.

2. People start playing rogues more intelligently, leading people to view them as the DPS class they can be rather than a squishy trapmonkey along for the ride.

3. The alternative class fills an entirely different role than rogues do, aside from the overlapping trapmonkey.

And the fact that a mere rogue splash is plenty to handle traps, well, I guess that means it wouldn't hurt to have another class with them. Just make sure it's a class that doesn't splash well.

Angelus_dead
03-15-2010, 11:12 PM
Adding a new character class that can handle traps is not needed, due to the unimportance of traps to gameplay as a whole. But if new classes were being added for other reasons, trapfinding would be one of the features to consider.

Of the classes listed above, Artificer and Beguiler would be the best possibilities. Scout and Ninja are much too similar to Rogues and Rangers to make sense to add (and Beguiler is fairly close to wiz/sorc as well)

prowessss
03-15-2010, 11:17 PM
I just want a Wiz/Rogue multiclass PrE (aka arcane trickster) which can handle traps/locks/levers at range.

oooh that sounds cool!
In my opinion, tho, they should give rogues lovin... I went over this in another post but perhaps sunder or improved sunder could be altered to include a fortification debuff? I think d20+level% oughta suffice... with the ability to stack the fort debuff... so if you have a rogue ganking something that's heavily fortified they could take it down no problem... i also think it should work on some undead... maybe this is too far tho?

Another thing... perhaps change disable device to trapsmithy? that way perhaps rogues could plant traps? this would also take a lot of focus off firewall being a stark nessessity... i think the traps should be sold perhaps only to rogues with the right amount of free agent favor? and they should be heavy! so rogues would be limited on how many they can bring with them... this would also diminish the gimpness of str based rogues... "no i didn't not know how to build a rogue, I just wanted to carry a lot of traps!"

Aashrym
03-15-2010, 11:29 PM
I like the idea of trap kits. I don't think they would be hard to implement being similar to some spells. Depending on how long the stay active they may cause a load on the servers.

Kistilan
03-15-2010, 11:29 PM
Adding a new character class that can handle traps is not needed, due to the unimportance of traps to gameplay as a whole. But if new classes were being added for other reasons, trapfinding would be one of the features to consider.

Of the classes listed above, Artificer and Beguiler would be the best possibilities. Scout and Ninja are much too similar to Rogues and Rangers to make sense to add (and Beguiler is fairly close to wiz/sorc as well)

Traps are unimportant to gameplay??? Ok.... I'm going to say I disagree -- elite traps are incredibly important.

Scouts/Infiltrators tend to gain a bonus to movement in natural settings (non man-made) as well as some excellent sniping and trap-attack combos. Setting a snare and attacking at the same time could be a new tactic based on a class alone. Camoflage (ability) instead of spellpoints. The benefits of ranged enhancement lines involving precise criticals (not multi-shot) without the requirement to sacrficice rogue skill levels would be incredibly nice for those archers and arcane archers that want another path other than ranger. A wiz-scout trapmonkey sniper could be a powerful combination.

Ninjas are adept with a skillset of weapons, can generate a dark-ki and critical strike akin to a unique combo of kensai, monk and rogue WITHOUT multi-classing. They also could have access to a limited number of "manifestations" in which they draw upon a divine source (wisdom) for power in their attacks. A speed-enhancement and exceptional jump skill bonus (gained per every 2 levels) would make this an effective explorative class. Ninja specialty weapon-attacks such as caltrops alone and smoke-bombs would be a fantastic addition to the array of DDO abilities.

I can't fathom not trying to incorporate these classes per a PrC based on True Reincarnate past-lifes. Ninjas/Samurai and Scout/Infiltrators have been core classes off and on throughout the generations of Dungeons and Dragons. Artificer has been around merely for Eberron. The primary additional class should be Druid first shortly thereafter followed by a large selection of new PrCs and a few base classes.

Trap-finders are not useless to the average party. That's my closing statement. Assuming all are capeable to overcome traps without rogues or with minimal rogue levels is a great assumption.

BrinLondo
03-16-2010, 12:34 AM
Back in PnP days, both monks and bards had access to "thief" skills. A ninja did also to a degree, a bushi--moreso open locks than disarm. There's a couple of options, I don't think ninja is the best bet.

SableShadow
03-16-2010, 12:40 AM
Traps are unimportant to gameplay???

Trap disabling, as currently implemented in DDO, is a mini-game played largely on the forums.

Trap avoidance, as currently implemented in DDO, is a mini-game played within the game.

Of the two, the later is by far the more interesting.

People confuse ignorance of the DCs with gameplay all the time, but that's all it is: ignorance of the DCs.

Once you know the DCs, you're done with finding and disarming traps as game play....all that's left is accounting. On the other hand, the quest itself can still be fun and interesting over several runs, depending how it was designed.

I know a dozen very different ways, off the top of my head, to kill an ogre...on the other hand, there is only one way to select a box and click a skill.

Ookami007
03-16-2010, 12:46 PM
Trap disabling, as currently implemented in DDO, is a mini-game played largely on the forums.

Trap avoidance, as currently implemented in DDO, is a mini-game played within the game.

Of the two, the later is by far the more interesting.

People confuse ignorance of the DCs with gameplay all the time, but that's all it is: ignorance of the DCs.

Once you know the DCs, you're done with finding and disarming traps as game play....all that's left is accounting. On the other hand, the quest itself can still be fun and interesting over several runs, depending how it was designed.

I know a dozen very different ways, off the top of my head, to kill an ogre...on the other hand, there is only one way to select a box and click a skill.

Yup... one splash of rogue to a wizard and you can disable traps better than any rogue (since you have a higher INT and can self-buff)...

Traps are really a non-issue after you run a dungeon once, know the placement and have a good idea of the DCs. Many are avoidable so that you don't HAVE to have a rogue.

Door are a joke too... as are chests... since most can be dealt with by knock.


With that said, I WOULD love to see new classes. I would REALLY love to see REAL prestige classes per the 3.5 rules. Arcane Trickster, Bladesinger, etc. would be really fun to take and splash...

More munchkin cheeze!

SableShadow
03-16-2010, 02:28 PM
Many are avoidable so that you don't HAVE to have a rogue.

Nearly all are avoidable, even ones that at first glance are not...one of the things that's funny, at least to me, is that learning to avoid traps provides more replay value than learning to disable them.

clanqui
03-16-2010, 02:35 PM
Yes, it would be nice if DDO had Artificers in game.

Artificers are very eberron, but hard to implement in an interesting way.

Scarecrow
03-16-2010, 04:06 PM
Ninja (from Complete Adventurer)
d6 hit die
skills 6 + int
Skill list: Balance, bluff, concentration, disable device, hide, jump, listen, move silently, hide, open lock, search, swim, spot, tumble.
BAB: as a rogue
Saves: Reflex save
proficient with all simple weapons and kama, shortbow, shortsword, shuriken. Not proficient with armour or shields.

level 1: AC bonus +1, sneak attack 1d6, ki power (+2 will saves), trapfinding
level 2: ki power: ghost step (spend ki, turn invisible)
level 3: sneak attack 2d6,
level 4: great leap (+4 to jump)
level 5: sneak attack 3d6
level 6: Acrobatics (+2 to jump, tumble), Ki power: ki dodge (spend ki to gain conceal), +2 AC
level 7: sneak attack 4d6
level 8: ki power: ghost strike (spend use to gain ghost touch)
level 9: sneak attack 5d6
level 10: Ghost step: (gain ethereal with ki)
level 11: sneak attack 6d6, AC +3
level 12: Acrobatics (+4 to jump, tumble), evasion
level 13: sneak attack 7d6
level 14: Ghost mind (spend ki to gain SR? Not exact translation)
level 15: Sneak attack 8d6
level 16: Ghost sight (see invisible)
level 17: Sneak attack 9d6
level 18: Acrobatics +6, greater ki dodge (concealment for ki)
level 19: Sneak attack 10d6
level 20: Ghost Walk (not quite sure how this one would translate. Shadow walk? Should be something better)

Scarecrow
03-16-2010, 04:11 PM
Beguiler (Players Handbook II)
d6 hit dice
skills = 6 plus int
skills = balance, bluff, concentrations, diplomacy, disable device, hide, jump, listen, move silenty, open lock, search, spot, swim, tumble, use magic device.
BAB = to wizard
save = will
proficient with simple weapons and rapier, shortbow, shortsword. Light armour, no shields.
Int is used for casting. Casts spells like a sorcerer.

level 1: Armoured Mage (no spell chance failure in light armour), trapfinding (like a rogue)
level 2: Cloaked casting (+1 DC to spells)
level 8: Cloaked Casting (+2 to overcome spell resistance)
level 14: cloaked casting (+2 DC to spells)
level 20: cloaked casting (automaticly overcome SR)

spell list
1: charm person, detect secret doors, expeditiuos retreat, hypnotism, mage armour, obscuring mist, sleep
2: blur, glitterdust, hpnotic pattern, invisibility, knock, see invisibility,
3: deep slumber, dispel magic, displacement, haste, hold person, slow, suggestion
4: charm monster, crushing despair, freedom of movement, solid fog
5: break enchantment, dominate person, feeblemind, hold monster, mind fog
6: mass suggestion, true seeing, greater dispel, shadow walk
7: Mass hold person, mass invisiblity, power word blind,
8: power word stun
9: mass hold monster, power word kill

Scarecrow
03-16-2010, 04:14 PM
Credit on this one goes to Aesop.

Scout
HD: d8
Skills per level 8+Int mod
Skills: Balance, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Swim, and Tumble
Wpn Prof: All Simple, Hand Axe, Throwing Axe, Short Sword, Short Bow
BAB: Rogue
Saves: Reflex

1: Skirmish (1d6), Trapfinding
2: Battle Fortitude, Uncanny Dodge
3: Fast Movement 5% , Skirmish (1d6, +1AC)
4: Bonus Feat
5: Evasion, Skirmish (2d6, +1AC)
6:
7: Skirmish (2d6, +2AC)
8: Bonus Feat
9: Skirmish (3d6, +2AC)
10:
11: Battle Fortitude +2, Fast Movement 10%, Skirmish (3d6, +3AC)
12: Bonus Feat
13: Skirmish (4d6, +3AC)
14:
15: Skirmish (4d6, +4AC)
16: Bonus Feat

Bonus Feats: Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Athletic, Blind Fighting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Point Blank Shot,Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Shot on the Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack

Skirmish: must be moving for the benefits to be active... the problem with this line is that it makes the Spring Attack/ SotR line almost a sure thing for 90% of the builds

gavagai
03-16-2010, 04:34 PM
My only concern is that most of these new classes sound almost exactly like the current classes, but with a little variation in roleplay and technical features.

The Ninja seems redundant given the Acrobat (d6, same skills, Sneak Attack, acrobat skills) with the Tharnes set (true sight, ghost touch, &c.); and inferior for DDO, since it doesn't get UMD.

The Scout seems too similar to the Ranger (d8, same skills, Longstrider, archery/light melee, "Whirling Steel" AC bonus, F.E. bonus instead of skirmish bonus); and inferior to the 18/1/1, due to sneak attack, monk AC, &c.

Beguiler could be good -- but too close to a bard (d6, same skills more or less, casting in Light Armor, CC spells)

I'm not saying these things need to be mega-powerful; but it seems a waste to make a class that anyone with a little imagination can already play. None of these bring anything interesting or new to the trapsmith concept except a derivative class that has trapskills. i.e. bait for new players that think Trapz are rly importent!

I'd personally like to see Cleric Domains, and one of them (Trickery? Shadow?) give a short-term bonus to OL/DD/Search. That would have great synergy with a rogue-splash cleric, maybe with Drow Scorpion Wraith for extra pathos.

Artificer sounds good too, in the sense that it is truly a new class. Though honestly I can't imagine how it would be implemented well in DDO, given how powerful UMD is.

Symar-FangofLloth
03-16-2010, 05:09 PM
I'd personally like to see Cleric Domains, and one of them (Trickery? Shadow?) give a short-term bonus to OL/DD/Search. T

Find Traps (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Find_Traps) already gives the Search bonus.
To get the best on the others you'd probably be best off as a human for the skill boosts and extra skill point.


I agree that Scouts are too much like Rangers (and to get all their damage have to be in a state of motion; with all the hate against kiters already, do we really want a class that has to do it to deal damage?), Ninjas are too much like Rogues with a Monk splash, and Beguilers are too indeterminate between a Bard/Sorcerer (not to mention their spell list sucks, even in tabletop: it's all Illusions/Enchantments, so mostly CC and that's it).
And Artificers are too hard to implement in a good way, without going and adding something crazy (like Monks have Ki attacks). And too hard to justify making them, with the ability to grant everyone in the party a Greater Bane on their weapons, given enough prep time.

gavagai
03-16-2010, 05:18 PM
Find Traps (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Find_Traps) already gives the Search bonus.
To get the best on the others you'd probably be best off as a human for the skill boosts and extra skill point.


Doesn't help with the Disarming, though. For those that want the ability.

Ideally, the Domain would allow a pure cleric to Disarm and Search and just grant the trapmonkey feats and skills; but this being DDO, Domains will probably belong to enhancement lines [i.e., not granting feats and class skills], so I'd be happy with a Sacred skill boost for an existing rogue/cleric. +1 per 3 cleric levels, for instance. The Scorpion Wraith idea was just for the roleplay feel of a shadowy priest with sneak attacks. ;)