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undercover69
03-15-2010, 07:12 AM
Drows

The suggestion is to improve drows when 32 pts is unlocked. It seems devs are very resistant to giving drows more points so here's a different take on it:
A) SR. Drows should have SR equal to 10 + level. Could be made as an aditional 5th tier to drow's SR enhancement line achievable at lvl 18 for 5 ap. Or unlocking a feat available at 3rd level+.
B) Scimitar and light crossbow. I dont know where this rapier/shortsword/shuriken came from but its near useless as the first 2 are piercing and shuriken pales in comparison to other thrown weapons. Give them proficiency and enhancement lines in these weapons so drows can actually be something other than wiz/sorc (and the occasional bard) with some effectiveness. Tempest rangers, fighters and pallies now have a trade off for lower con, bards become more desirable and rogues becomes very interesting. Even a battle cleric/FvS is worth a tought.

With these couple changes I believe going for 32pts in another race or being drow are on even footing, or near. I still see a lot of benefit going for human (who else can get racial bonus to wis and str?... BOTH, and without penalty to con), elves already have good weapon enhancement lines and great dragonmarks, etc.


Dungeon Scaling

I'll first explain where I'm coming from. I'm a premium player who paid the dollars to buy tps and get Giant Hold and several other stuff from DDO store, and also a newbie. Currently I'm playing a melee class and it seems all groups to go to GH are only requesting healers and arcane casters. See the problem here? The most expensive pack in the game is actually worth nothing as I cant play it! I dont know the dungeons nor have the uber gear to go learn them solo, all my tries result in a rather large repair bill within a couple minutes.

The suggestion: dynamic scaling. Have the guy died? Scale down! A lot! Reduce to hit/saves/spell DCs of monsters. Kinda like giving them negative levels. These changes only apply if the player is in the same party configuration (disregarding hirelings) and reenter the dungeon - thus losing the 10% bonus from reentry and 10% from death.

This seems very balanced to me for a couple reasons: 20% xp loss + repair bill to be able to finish the quest on the same difficulty. Some people will balk at the cost, some will take the oportunity to at least use the content they paid for! And some will buy the xp elixir... which from a company's stand point is a great thing.

Anderei
03-15-2010, 07:23 AM
Drows

The suggestion is to improve drows when 32 pts is unlocked. It seems devs are very resistant to giving drows more points so here's a different take on it:
A) SR. Drows should have SR equal to 10 + level. Could be made as an aditional 5th tier to drow's SR enhancement line achievable at lvl 18 for 5 ap.
B) Scimitar and light crossbow. I dont know where this rapier/shortsword/shuriken came from but its near useless as the first 2 are piercing and shuriken pales in comparison to other thrown weapons. Give them proficiency and enhancement lines in these weapons so drows can actually be something other than wiz/sorc (and the occasional bard) with some effectiveness. Tempest rangers, fighters and pallies now have a trade off for lower con, bards become more desirable and rogues becomes very interesting. Even a battle cleric/FvS is worth a tought.

With these couple changes I believe going for 32pts in another race or being drow are on even footing, or near. I still see a lot of benefit going for human (who else can get racial bonus to wis and str?... BOTH, and without penalty to con), elves already have good weapon enhancement lines and great dragonmarks, etc.

Drows are by design a good beginners race that unlocks at 400TP (and a race of choice by some very special min/max builds that go to 20 in a stat), but fall back once you unlock 1750TP. If you change drows, you have to change the favor system with them.



Dungeon Scaling

I'll first explain where I'm coming from. I'm a premium player who paid the dollars to buy tps and get Giant Hold and several other stuff from DDO store, and also a newbie. Currently I'm playing a melee class and it seems all groups to go to GH are only requesting healers and arcane casters. See the problem here? The most expensive pack in the game is actually worth nothing as I cant play it! I dont know the dungeons nor have the uber gear to go learn them solo, all my tries result in a rather large repair bill within a couple minutes.

The suggestion: dynamic scaling. Have the guy died? Scale down! A lot! Reduce to hit/saves/spell DCs of monsters. Kinda like giving them negative levels. These changes only apply if the player is in the same party configuration (disregarding hirelings) and reenter the dungeon - thus losing the 10% bonus from reentry and 10% from death.

This seems very balanced to me for a couple reasons: 20% xp loss + repair bill to be able to finish the quest on the same difficulty. Some people will balk at the cost, some will take the oportunity to at least use the content they paid for! And some will buy the xp elixir... which from a company's stand point is a great thing.

Nah, first this is an online game, and there is a "market" from players. As too many roll melees its the effect (or a secondary effect that you want a melee to do the shroud) Don't change the game any more to solo, its an MMO by design. Just open your own groups and wait them to fill.

Kaervas
03-15-2010, 07:31 AM
Drows

The suggestion is to improve drows when 32 pts is unlocked. It seems devs are very resistant to giving drows more points so here's a different take on it:
A) SR. Drows should have SR equal to 10 + level. Could be made as an aditional 5th tier to drow's SR enhancement line achievable at lvl 18 for 5 ap.
B) Scimitar and light crossbow. I dont know where this rapier/shortsword/shuriken came from but its near useless as the first 2 are piercing and shuriken pales in comparison to other thrown weapons. Give them proficiency and enhancement lines in these weapons so drows can actually be something other than wiz/sorc (and the occasional bard) with some effectiveness. Tempest rangers, fighters and pallies now have a trade off for lower con, bards become more desirable and rogues becomes very interesting. Even a battle cleric/FvS is worth a tought.

With these couple changes I believe going for 32pts in another race or being drow are on even footing, or near. I still see a lot of benefit going for human (who else can get racial bonus to wis and str?... BOTH, and without penalty to con), elves already have good weapon enhancement lines and great dragonmarks, etc.

A divine caster can grant SR 12+casterlevel to anyone, I don't think anyone would sink that many AP into SR that isn't top-tier.

Scimitars are nice but light crossbows are still useless.



Dungeon Scaling

I'll first explain where I'm coming from. I'm a premium player who paid the dollars to buy tps and get Giant Hold and several other stuff from DDO store, and also a newbie. Currently I'm playing a melee class and it seems all groups to go to GH are only requesting healers and arcane casters. See the problem here? The most expensive pack in the game is actually worth nothing as I cant play it! I dont know the dungeons nor have the uber gear to go learn them solo, all my tries result in a rather large repair bill within a couple minutes.

The suggestion: dynamic scaling. Have the guy died? Scale down! A lot! Reduce to hit/saves/spell DCs of monsters. Kinda like giving them negative levels. These changes only apply if the player is in the same party configuration (disregarding hirelings) and reenter the dungeon - thus losing the 10% bonus from reentry and 10% from death.

This seems very balanced to me for a couple reasons: 20% xp loss + repair bill to be able to finish the quest on the same difficulty. Some people will balk at the cost, some will take the oportunity to at least use the content they paid for! And some will buy the xp elixir... which from a company's stand point is a great thing.

Woah, woah, woah there.
So you're saying, if someone dies, the game gets easier to suit them until they stop dying? Haven't you considered that this might prevent the growth of the player? If things that challenge them are reduced in challenge when they fail, then what is the point of even playing?

The loss of the 2 XP bonuses are negligible for a non TR character, as there's a glut of it at most levels, and the repair bill is likewise negligible. They're a penalty for failure, if this penalty also comes along with a tremendous "boon" of the entire dungeon being nerfed to hell when you re-enter it, then it's a penalty that many would just take, to their detriment. They'd power through the easymode dungeon and expect that to be the norm, and never learn how to overcome what actually killed them in the first place...
It's in no way balanced - the penalty is exactly the same as what is in place now, and the additional "gain" (and I use this word loosely, since in the long run it is not a gain at all) is very large.
To reiterate:

This seems very balanced to me for a couple reasons: 20% xp loss + repair bill to be able to finish the quest on the same difficulty.
This is exactly what happens now. Except, now, the player is forced to reassess their strategy or improve their gear or supplies before jumping back in.
With your suggestion, they can jump back in blindly and do exactly what they did that got them killed the last time, except they'll succeed now because the dungeon made itself easier for them.



If you're having trouble with joining a premade GH group, then make your own, so that you are the starting melee in the group and are looking for casters/healers. Yes, it only increases the competition, but there is not much else to be done.


PS. Isn't the plural of drow still drow?

Danmor
03-15-2010, 08:12 AM
What level is your character? Unless you know what you're doing you shouldn't start soloing GH quest before lvl 13ish.

To the OP's suggestions: Why should drow be improved? They're basically pre-made 32pt characters with some added perks.

Dungeon Scaling: The dungeons do already scale considerably. If you can't complete a quest now on this difficulty try a level later or at lower difficulty.

Summary:
/not signed + /not signed

undercover69
03-15-2010, 08:16 AM
Drows are by design a good beginners race that unlocks at 400TP (and a race of choice by some very special min/max builds that go to 20 in a stat), but fall back once you unlock 1750TP. If you change drows, you have to change the favor system with them.
I dont see the need to change the favor system. As you said yourself they fall back, and what I'm suggesting is that instead of falling back you retain them as a viable option. Its not THE option as other races are suddenly very compelling and on even ground. Why should someone lose when they unlock 1750 favor, or worse, they bought 32pts from DDO store (like me)?


A divine caster can grant SR 12+casterlevel to anyone, I don't think anyone would sink that many AP into SR that isn't top-tier. It's an added option, not meant to make anyone an uber character but to improve it, even if just situationally (against antimagic).


Scimitars are nice but light crossbows are still useless. I can see myself using light xbow on builds that dont get longbows or are not str focused. Its a good option but again, not meant to make anyone uber.



Woah, woah, woah there.
So you're saying, if someone dies, the game gets easier to suit them until they stop dying? Haven't you considered that this might prevent the growth of the player? If things that challenge them are reduced in challenge when they fail, then what is the point of even playing?

The loss of the 2 XP bonuses are negligible for a non TR character, as there's a glut of it at most levels, and the repair bill is likewise negligible. They're a penalty for failure, if this penalty also comes along with a tremendous "boon" of the entire dungeon being nerfed to hell when you re-enter it, then it's a penalty that many would just take, to their detriment. They'd power through the easymode dungeon and expect that to be the norm, and never learn how to overcome what actually killed them in the first place...
It's in no way balanced - the penalty is exactly the same as what is in place now, and the additional "gain" (and I use this word loosely, since in the long run it is not a gain at all) is very large.
To reiterate:

This is exactly what happens now. Except, now, the player is forced to reassess their strategy or improve their gear or supplies before jumping back in.
With your suggestion, they can jump back in blindly and do exactly what they did that got them killed the last time, except they'll succeed now because the dungeon made itself easier for them.

If you're having trouble with joining a premade GH group, then make your own, so that you are the starting melee in the group and are looking for casters/healers. Yes, it only increases the competition, but there is not much else to be done.
Not in my experience. The more I run a dungeon the more I learn and improve my skills. My normal learning curve is doing a dungeon 3x with a group before I can solo it (exceptions being The Pit - harder than normal to learn - and Tempest Spine - sheer size of it takes more time to learn). By then I know what kind of traps are there and where, location of monsters and shrines so I can plan it. Not being able to run a dungeon even once is what stops me (hmm, sounds redundant). As you said yourself in the long run its not a gain, my suggestions are not focused on powergaming but on having more fun. I love exploring new areas, its a blast, and having paid for something I cant use is very frustrating.

Both of you suggest I just start my own group. I'd do it, if I knew the dungeons. I open groups all the time for dungeons I can lead ppl through. I have absolutely no idea of what I'll face in Feast or Famine for example so I dont even know what party composition I need. Should I take 2 healers instead of 1? Or focus more on getting arcane casters? Is a trapmonkey absolutely necessary? Any ability runes? That goes for every dungeon I've never been in. Creating a group that results in TPK is no better than failing on my own while soloing, except I took longer to put the party together, same players that will probably not run with me anymore.



PS. Isn't the plural of drow still drow?

Maybe, Idk.

Kaervas
03-15-2010, 08:26 AM
Just put Need Guide or First Timer in your LFM.
Dunno how it is on your server but on Ghallanda these are reasonably common and they do fill up.
Everyone is new to a quest once (some people somehow manage to be new more than once, but that's a different issue).

The number of quests for which 4 melee 1 caster 1 healer / 3 melee 2 casters 1 healer / 3 melee 1 caster 2 healers are not optimal is extremely small, and any such exotic group makeup requirements can largely be bypassed by knowing the quest well.


RE: the Spell Resistance thing
That's a very heavy AP cost for a very specific situation.
I'll admit that having 30 permanent SR is nice for times when you are not running with a cleric, but I would still have to think long and hard on whether to invest that many AP on it. I'd just boost my saves up like I normally do, and run with that, doing the same thing I do on non-drow, non-cleric/FVS characters who cannot muster that level of maintainable SR.

Anderei
03-15-2010, 08:29 AM
Both of you suggest I just start my own group. I'd do it, if I knew the dungeons.

What tells you, you ought to know a dungeon to open it? If it worked that way on the early days of DDO, nobody could go into any dungeon, as nobody had runned it so far. Just state in your LFM (do not know dungeon), and figure it out together (which is most fun IMHO), or have another lead you if s/he steps forward.

undercover69
03-15-2010, 08:47 AM
What level is your character? Unless you know what you're doing you shouldn't start soloing GH quest before lvl 13ish. Exactly what I'm talking about. I'm lvl 12 and had no clue I should be attempting that only at 13.


To the OP's suggestions: Why should drow be improved? They're basically pre-made 32pt characters with some added perks. They dont hold up well to other races with 32pts. Melee classes in general: drows are a poor choice given stats (con) and weapon enhancements or tactics (dorf, WF), plus cant offset lower con with dragonmark as the elf can (or with self-healing as the halfling). Divine classes: all other races do better, except maybe a healing specced FvS but humans are on even footing. Monks: halflings and humans are at the top. Wiz: cant beat the benefits of WF or human, with class bonus feats halflings can become self-healing too. Sorc: Humans survive better with better con, extra feat and skill makes it better than drow. WF also a good option. Bard: dunno, but I'd take human. So, as I see it, in the 32pts sea drow is always second place, or worse. Can you do a good char with drow? Of course yes. Would you do better with another 32pts race? Yes.

Anderei
03-15-2010, 08:50 AM
(or with self-healing as the halfling).

Halflings dont get a CON down. They are +2 Dex, -2 Str.

Baahb3
03-15-2010, 08:57 AM
Both of you suggest I just start my own group. I'd do it, if I knew the dungeons. I open groups all the time for dungeons I can lead ppl through. I have absolutely no idea of what I'll face in Feast or Famine for example so I dont even know what party composition I need. Should I take 2 healers instead of 1? Or focus more on getting arcane casters? Is a trapmonkey absolutely necessary? Any ability runes?





This is what every vet out there has gone through, and every time a new adventure comes out these are the same questions that even the vets ask. You learn more from trial and error then having someone drag you along the quest even if they explain everything for you.

I guess what I am suggesting is don't fret about putting a group together, even for an adventure that you don't know. Whats that old saying 'You don't know till you try'.....

Danmor
03-15-2010, 09:03 AM
Exactly what I'm talking about. I'm lvl 12 and had no clue I should be attempting that only at 13.
The walk-ups are lvl 13 quests. That might be a clue ^^
/sarcasm off

On a more helpful note: Starting at lvl 10ish most quests become considerably harder to solo. So much so that it is much faster to run that quest when you're one or two levels above quest level. For starters I'd recommend Trial by Fire or Feast or Famine as those are fairly straightforward hack'n'slash quests.
I wouldn't recommend soloing Foundation of Discord or Maze of Madness (btw, MoM cannot be solo'ed without hireling).



They dont hold up well to other races with 32pts. Melee classes in general: drows are a poor choice given stats (con) and weapon enhancements or tactics (dorf, WF), plus cant offset lower con with dragonmark as the elf can (or with self-healing as the halfling). Divine classes: all other races do better, except maybe a healing specced FvS but humans are on even footing. Monks: halflings and humans are at the top. Wiz: cant beat the benefits of WF or human, with class bonus feats halflings can become self-healing too. Sorc: Humans survive better with better con, extra feat and skill makes it better than drow. WF also a good option. Bard: dunno, but I'd take human. So, as I see it, in the 32pts sea drow is always second place, or worse. Can you do a good char with drow? Of course yes. Would you do better with another 32pts race? Yes.
I think Drow are perfect the way they are. They are a kind of stepping stone on the way to 32pt builds and serve as a crutch until you do.
Once you get 32pt builds you have slightly better options than drow.... Sounds good to me.

undercover69
03-15-2010, 09:37 AM
On a more helpful note: Starting at lvl 10ish most quests become considerably harder to solo. So much so that it is much faster to run that quest when you're one or two levels above quest level. For starters I'd recommend Trial by Fire or Feast or Famine as those are fairly straightforward hack'n'slash quests.
I wouldn't recommend soloing Foundation of Discord or Maze of Madness (btw, MoM cannot be solo'ed without hireling).
Yes, I did notice they suddenly got much harder, especially because I relied a lot on ac... Thx a lot for the tips, much appreciated.


I think Drow are perfect the way they are. They are a kind of stepping stone on the way to 32pt builds and serve as a crutch until you do.
Once you get 32pt builds you have slightly better options than drow.... Sounds good to me.

Yeah, I guess its just that I find drows cool and would like to play them more. Not that I'd build a drow ranger tempest dual wielding scimitars... lol, but a tactics kensai fighter or a drow sorc I'd take, even if WF, dorf or human would be slightly better for those purposes. I mean the drow sorc could offset the human extra feat with SR line, plus kiting with light xbow when run out of sp, humans would still have better survivability (more hp/fortitude), more spell damage in 2 elemental lines instead of 1 by having more free ap and bonus to umd via versatility... heck, humans ARE better, but with a little extra I would make the drow. And SR + weapons enhancements a fighter is quite a choice, even if by sacrificing 2 con and 15 ap. Humans, dwarfs and WF would still out dps drows but the SR opens a whole new gameplay. Barbarian with SR? Cool! Less dmg than dwarf and WF, and WF also have their immunities and enhancements that make for great barbarians, but a drow barbarian would be a good choice.

Thx everyone with the suggestions about groups, I'll do it! :)

Krag
03-15-2010, 09:53 AM
I think Drow are perfect the way they are. They are a kind of stepping stone on the way to 32pt builds and serve as a crutch until you do.
Once you get 32pt builds you have slightly better options than drow.... Sounds good to me.

Other races can be upgraded to 32pt once you earn or buy this option.
Drow can't be upgraded into better-selves and will always lag behind.

Danmor
03-15-2010, 10:04 AM
Other races can be upgraded to 32pt once you earn or buy this option.
Drow can't be upgraded into better-selves and will always lag behind.

Drow are already a kind of 32 point builds but with some preassigned ability scores.

I stated that they are a stepping stone on the way to full 32pt builds because they are not as flexible as other races with 32pt builds. Of course they will "lag behind": They only require 400 favor whereas a full 32pter requires 1750 favor. What do you expect?

Anderei
03-15-2010, 10:07 AM
Drow are already a kind of 32 point builds but with some preassigned ability scores.


Actually its a tad better than preassigned 4 build points, since the expensive 1ups start coming later, and you can minmax to 20.

Emili
03-15-2010, 10:15 AM
The walk-ups are lvl 13 quests. That might be a clue ^^
/sarcasm off

On a more helpful note: Starting at lvl 10ish most quests become considerably harder to solo. So much so that it is much faster to run that quest when you're one or two levels above quest level. For starters I'd recommend Trial by Fire or Feast or Famine as those are fairly straightforward hack'n'slash quests.
I wouldn't recommend soloing Foundation of Discord or Maze of Madness (btw, MoM cannot be solo'ed without hireling).

Plenty a drow caster were soloing those quests back when Giant Hold was end game and the level cap was 14. The difference in giant hold is not the mob tended to hit harder... so you must 1.) Possess heavy fort by then - if not earlier really, 2.) be somewhat self sufficient and 3.) know a little more about the mob you're dealing with - via trial and error or informed by others.

I will tell you this - the GH mob seems much more squishier then I remember them. I remember when I leveled my elf wizard up back then - Trial by Fire - she was but level eight, had a level nine bard and level 11 rogue with her (three man group) her first few times through it - and not one death. Of course I knew what was expected as I had eight other capped characters at the time which run thru it repeatedly.



I think Drow are perfect the way they are. They are a kind of stepping stone on the way to 32pt builds and serve as a crutch until you do.
Once you get 32pt builds you have slightly better options than drow.... Sounds good to me.
IMO … no particular race should be viewed as a stepping stone really - you should not have to feel you must turn around and TR any character. Drow actually can use a look into enhancements... was a time I had four drow, I rerolled two as the enhancement system changed, yet I still retain two... and I was practically born into 32 point builds when they were released.

Funny thing... when Drow first came out they were an epitome race. Stormreach soon became a sea of Drow and Dwarf (DDO – was often referred to as an acronym for Drow and Dwarf Online by the players)… Why? Well when Drow were introduced – 32 points came out three to four months afterwords.

1.) 32 point builds were not possible.
2.) Evan after 32 point builds for a time you still only could take Four enhancements – people took the top tiers of four different ones when they could.

When the enhancement system was opened up the level cap was 14… Many previous enhancements were nerfed, paladin divine favor was nerfed, the barbarian became premier melee due to crit rage and only Dwarf and WF had any racial toughness available. WF immunities were fixed, Humans and Halflings became somewhat nerfed behind the other races at first… Elf and Drow were still strong in Arcane, Ranger and Rogue classes and Drow competitive in Bard, Cleric and Pally classes aside. I.E. Human versatility which was a +5 passive enhancement to all skills was nerfed to a clickie, Humans also had but one adaptability enhancement and racial weapon enhancements were introduced.

The Elven Arcanum was viewed as a perk for arcanes (originally drow had this also) – the whole of SP system was way off as such people viewed SP more precious on a caster far more than HP. It was Drow power tamed early Giant Hold and Orchard even… Drow were still a powerful option as a race. Then as the Vale was introduced the importance of high HP characters became more important – so much so – the Devs were urged to offer the racial toughness enhancements for other races, the SP system had a major overhaul. Humans also received some love in the form of Greater Adaptability, and the shroud loot became moreso a power equalizer in the offering… thus Drow fell down the scale of what they had to offer. Today drow enhancement lines are weak in offering, elf and human (for stat tight or arcane) somewhat better, dwarf even better if you hold a melee weapon, and WF and Halfling more round and even better.

Krag
03-15-2010, 10:17 AM
Drow are already a kind of 32 point builds but with some preassigned ability scores.

I stated that they are a stepping stone on the way to full 32pt builds because they are not as flexible as other races with 32pt builds. Of course they will "lag behind": They only require 400 favor whereas a full 32pter requires 1750 favor. What do you expect?

Wasn't I clear enough?
Because I want an option to get rid of this "lagging behind" once I have access to 32-pb.

undercover69
03-15-2010, 10:30 AM
Drow are already a kind of 32 point builds but with some preassigned ability scores.

I stated that they are a stepping stone on the way to full 32pt builds because they are not as flexible as other races with 32pt builds. Of course they will "lag behind": They only require 400 favor whereas a full 32pter requires 1750 favor. What do you expect?

Thats what I'm suggesting. Drow as it is now once you reach 400 favor (or buy), improved Drow at 1750 (or buy 32pts). Woulndt even need to start over with a new char as you can reset enhancements to get the new ones right away. DDO store could even sell the improved drow separetedly from 32pts, lets say for 900 tp, or just the enhancement pack (for those that already got drow) for 200 tp. I can smell profit here.

Emili
03-15-2010, 10:45 AM
Actually its a tad better than preassigned 4 build points, since the expensive 1ups start coming later, and you can minmax to 20.
Actually when you look at it all... 48 + 32 point build or 52 +28 = 80 points is even... the problems with drow is thier racial abilities - such as SR - do not amount to much - even full out your sr 22 matters little to the cr 30 casting mob, The Piercing weapon spec - while nice - is so mod 6. - WoP is near nothing it used to be. ;) The stat dispearcment is not as meaningfull as what it used to be and Drow like Elf being a lower con race needs much to sure up the HP... Two years ago Drow were one of the power races - even among the 32 point builds... addition of Monk, flood of +2 tomes, much of what was viable in the Drow been replaced.

gavagai
03-15-2010, 10:59 AM
Wasn't I clear enough?
Because I want an option to get rid of this "lagging behind" once I have access to 32-pb.

I'm /signed on adding more flavor to Drow. Crossbow would certainly be a step up from Shuriken.

But /notsigned on scimitars. I think you underestimate rapiers. They have the same damage as Scimitars, are finesseable, and with piercing they have many beneficial properties.

My guess is that SR will remain gimpy; any SR superior to monk SR or cleric's cast SR will probably be too powerful as a passive effect; and SR less then that will not be useful when scaled to Epic content.

All in all, I think most of the racial rebalancing happen through the Drow "Scorpion Wraith" PrE line, announced a few months ago with no ETA; I hope that isn't bungled up.


... and no on the scaling. ;)

Thriand
03-15-2010, 11:15 AM
I think Drow are perfect the way they are. They are a kind of stepping stone on the way to 32pt builds and serve as a crutch until you do.
Once you get 32pt builds you have slightly better options than drow.... Sounds good to me.

Unfortunately because of the relative uselessness of both int and cha on most builds drow aren't inherently better than a 28 pt build just because they have higher base stats and if you top that off with the fact that drow enhancements are the absolute worse across all the races and I think it is pretty reasonable to ask that drow get a little dev love. After all it is pretty unreasonable to advertise a race that has to be unlocked and it be completely useless when compared to the standard races.

Besides no race in this game should "lag behind" Turbine is finally allowing us to turn old 28 pt builds into 32 pt build via greater reincarnation but I guess those poor people who unlocked and played drow should be forced to true reincarnate.

Danmor
03-15-2010, 11:27 AM
@Emili: I am quite aware that GH quests can be done much earlier than lvl 13ish. But if you don't know the quest, don't have the spare change for some resources and are below level you'll probably find it much harder to complete.
Yes, dungeon scaling and all that stuff made it much easier than it used to be (I do remember wiping in there a couple of times when the package came out) but for a newish player it's still a challenge.

@Krag: I didn't want to come off cranky, I just think that Drow are not that bad and for me they are kind of inbetween 28pt builds and 32pt builds. They do have some advantages that make them viable for certain builds, but until the next enhancement system overhaul they're not optimal.

Thriand
03-15-2010, 11:38 AM
I didn't want to come off cranky, I just think that Drow are not that bad and for me they are kind of inbetween 28pt builds and 32pt builds. They do have some advantages that make them viable for certain builds, but until the next enhancement system overhaul they're not optimal.

But they question is why you think that a race that has to be unlocked, or more importantly bought with real money, should be inferior.

The whole reason 32 pt builds were introduced were to balance the playing field so that races didn't get left behind, now the premium race is behind the regular races which shouldn't happen.

Emili
03-15-2010, 11:39 AM
Unfortunately because of the relative uselessness of both int and cha on most builds drow aren't inherently better than a 28 pt build just because they have higher base stats and if you top that off with the fact that drow enhancements are the absolute worse across all the races and I think it is pretty reasonable to ask that drow get a little dev love. After all it is pretty unreasonable to advertise a race that has to be unlocked and it be completely useless when compared to the standard races.

Besides no race in this game should "lag behind" Turbine is finally allowing us to turn old 28 pt builds into 32 pt build via greater reincarnation but I guess those poor people who unlocked and played drow should be forced to true reincarnate.

Exactly... I tried to point out that drow fell behind other races only due to the enhancement system openning up and the fact that the enhancements decided upon for drow - basically suck. Before the enhancement system openned up you could only have four enhancement lines on a character, most of the lines we have today did not exist, and really a drow cleric for instance was arguably more powerful then a 32 point human or dwarf one... as they did not have human daptability nor had HP been so relivant at the time as racial toughness only existed for Dwarf and WF and even those builds . Bards, Pallys, Rogues Sorc, Wizard (even with human extra base feat) Drow were aguably among the viable powerful options in building these classes. They fell by the wayside only due to their enhancements being outdated by newer enhancements added to other races ...

Angelus_dead
03-15-2010, 11:45 AM
that will not be useful when scaled to Epic content.
Whether something is useful in epic is not a valid requirement. Epic mode is screwed up and abnegates a lot of features that are otherwise meaningful.

However, suppose Drow could get an amount of SR that stacked ontop of SR from other sources... that would give them the best chance of ever using SR to deflect an epic opponent's spell.

undercover69
03-15-2010, 11:47 AM
But /notsigned on scimitars. I think you underestimate rapiers. They have the same damage as Scimitars, are finesseable, and with piercing they have many beneficial properties.

My guess is that SR will remain gimpy; any SR superior to monk SR or cleric's cast SR will probably be too powerful as a passive effect; and SR less then that will not be useful when scaled to Epic content.

Your guess is correct. Being familiar with only the earlier levels (up to invaders) content I have not found much use to rapiers. Now that you mentioned I looked up Monster DR Bypass (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=178393) and indeed rapiers have their uses. Now my guess is that you thought I was talking about replacing enhancements, but I'm proposing adding to. So you'd still have the rapier line if you want that with the option of going scimitar if that suits you better.

Regarding the SR, you're not really expecting a race to get something for epic content, are you? SR 10 + level can be very useful throughout the entire game, specially soloing or in small groups. Sometimes a bard plays the role of healer, or the ranger or pally. Great for family/RL friends closed groups. You get the picture. And suddenly now you can tank, or at least annoy the casters. Not meant to be uber.

Maxou69
03-15-2010, 11:51 AM
I have to say that drows in DDO are not as powerfull as they were in the other games I played. I remember Viconia in Baldur's Gate 1 who started at 50% spell resistance. (She was immune to 50% her own heals) They hopefully fixed that in BG II. In NWN they were awsome and got a leveling penalty to compensate their uberness.

By the way TURBINE, I see in the Drows promo screen: "They can use exotics weapons..." ehhhh? Wich multiples exotics weapons? Shuriken and shuriken? Ah ok, you meant that you can throw more than one shuriken between level 1 and level 20. Cool, I'm goona build a kensai drow shuriken master ;)

undercover69
03-15-2010, 11:52 AM
However, suppose Drow could get an amount of SR that stacked ontop of SR from other sources... that would give them the best chance of ever using SR to deflect an epic opponent's spell.

Thats a cool idea. Circumstance bonus to SR line, or something like that, with 4 tiers up to +4 bonus to SR from any other source, including drow's existing SR line. Seconded!

gavagai
03-15-2010, 11:58 AM
Whether something is useful in epic is not a valid requirement. Epic mode is screwed up and abnegates a lot of features that are otherwise meaningful.

However, suppose Drow could get an amount of SR that stacked ontop of SR from other sources... that would give them the best chance of ever using SR to deflect an epic opponent's spell.

Of course I don't think its useless if it doesn't work in Epic. But I think it is best to "balance" by giving something that they benefit from at all levels. +2 to hit and damage can be relevant in all content; +2 to saves the same; +20% healing amp the same. These are benefits that aren't mere conveniences at low levels; if Drow SR is designed as such a convenience, I think it fail to make drow more attractive.

I like the idea of a proportion of the SR stacking; it could be similar to the alacrity bonus of monks; 10+level SR, with 1/5th an insight bonus that stacks. Thus, even if a 38 SR (32 from Cleric, +6 stacking from racial SR) is utterly useless in Epic, the Drow has something representing its racial heritage. A Drow Monk would at least have that theoretical synergy of monk SR + Drow SR, as well.

Krag
03-15-2010, 12:01 PM
Regarding the SR, you're not really expecting a race to get something for epic content, are you? SR 10 + level can be very useful throughout the entire game, specially soloing or in small groups. Sometimes a bard plays the role of healer, or the ranger or pally. Great for family/RL friends closed groups. You get the picture. And suddenly now you can tank, or at least annoy the casters. Not meant to be uber.

I DO expect a race to get something for epic and any other tougher-than-regular content.
Halfling Cunning/Guile IS useful in epic. Human Improved Recovery IS useful in epic. Dwarven Spell Defence IS useful in epic. WF immunities ARE useful in epic.

undercover69
03-15-2010, 12:05 PM
WF immunities ARE useful in epic. Indeed they are.

DreamSlinger
03-15-2010, 03:26 PM
Drows

B) Scimitar and light crossbow. I dont know where this rapier/shortsword/shuriken came from but its near useless as the first 2 are piercing and shuriken pales in comparison to other thrown weapons.

In the Monster Manual and other PnP resources, Drow had proficiency with Rapiers and Short Swords.

I'm not sure about the shuriken bit but I'm pretty sure that they had proficiency with the Hand Crossbow.

Wickednisse
04-02-2010, 02:16 AM
To the OP's suggestions: Why should drow be improved? They're basically pre-made 32pt characters with some added perks.



Summary:
/not signed + /not signed

I unlocked the drow race, and was so happy about it. Then I researched the forums and found that the only viable end game classes for a drow are a paladin and a wizard (the wizard not being solo friendly). To go against the grain I rolled a drow rogue and guess what I hear? 'You should have rolled a halfling, human, etc, you are going to get out dpsed at 20 by them so you're just wasting your time.' And yes, I have HEARD that from various individuals I've encountered in the game.

Drow need something that makes them viable for something other than a paladin or wizard (it may have been sorc, I don't remember). My initial plan once I unlocked the race was to roll a drow monk, that idea was quickly stomped into the hereafter with all of the people that told me it would be a horribad mistake that would be a waste of a character slot and time.

I'm sorry but I don't want to have to stare at something that looks like the missing link for 20 levels - aka a halfling (sorry but they have THE worst body proportion I've ever seen) and watch this hunched over arms dragging the ground thing.

It makes me regret buying the drow race, I've even been tempted to try and have the toon deleted and my points reimbursed because I feel as though my end game fun won't be found when I finally finish the long trek to 20.

Uska
04-02-2010, 02:41 AM
In the Monster Manual and other PnP resources, Drow had proficiency with Rapiers and Short Swords.

I'm not sure about the shuriken bit but I'm pretty sure that they had proficiency with the Hand Crossbow.

in greyhawk and forgotten realms they get hand crossbows on eberron they get shirken

Uska
04-02-2010, 02:46 AM
I unlocked the drow race, and was so happy about it. Then I researched the forums and found that the only viable end game classes for a drow are a paladin and a wizard (the wizard not being solo friendly). To go against the grain I rolled a drow rogue and guess what I hear? 'You should have rolled a halfling, human, etc, you are going to get out dpsed at 20 by them so you're just wasting your time.' And yes, I have HEARD that from various individuals I've encountered in the game.

Drow need something that makes them viable for something other than a paladin or wizard (it may have been sorc, I don't remember). My initial plan once I unlocked the race was to roll a drow monk, that idea was quickly stomped into the hereafter with all of the people that told me it would be a horribad mistake that would be a waste of a character slot and time.

I'm sorry but I don't want to have to stare at something that looks like the missing link for 20 levels - aka a halfling (sorry but they have THE worst body proportion I've ever seen) and watch this hunched over arms dragging the ground thing.

It makes me regret buying the drow race, I've even been tempted to try and have the toon deleted and my points reimbursed because I feel as though my end game fun won't be found when I finally finish the long trek to 20.

Drow are fine even more so if you dont have 32pt builds my drow monk was my first and only character so far to make lvl 20(I play to many alts and reroll to much) I did tr her to a human and proably will tr her back to drow at somepoint but she did fine and never was she a waste of time or a slot often she was the only one left alive hauling everyone back to the shrine I still play drow for several classes my paladin is one so is my bard my wizard my rogue they dont need jucing up.

Wickednisse
04-02-2010, 03:10 AM
Drow are fine even more so if you dont have 32pt builds my drow monk was my first and only character so far to make lvl 20(I play to many alts and reroll to much) I did tr her to a human and proably will tr her back to drow at somepoint but she did fine and never was she a waste of time or a slot often she was the only one left alive hauling everyone back to the shrine I still play drow for several classes my paladin is one so is my bard my wizard my rogue they dont need jucing up.

Uska, do you mind my asking what build you used for your monk? I know that Rockan Robin is the flavor of the month but it plays on halflings and a 32 point build which I do not have access to. I've searched high and low for some good solid advice on this.

PM me please as I don't want to derail this thread. :)

P.S. I have pie and cookies? (Or any other baked goody you can imagine!)

Uska
04-02-2010, 03:26 AM
will try to remember and let you know but she was a ac build and all lvl ups to dex and used several +2 tomes plus gained 2 +3 tomes from reaver dex and wis she had combat expertise. not now as a human though. started con at 14 and str I think rest into dex and wis.

Aschbart
04-02-2010, 12:25 PM
My normal learning curve is doing a dungeon 3x with a group before I can solo it
Interesting. My experience is that running in a group is usually the worst way of learning a dungeon, unless it's really too hard to solo or if there's at least one person in the group willing to explain special things to know about it. Most groups simply rush through the dungeon, whether or not they know what to do and expect, secretly hoping that *someone* will eventually do the right thing. Unfortunately it is almost impossible to learn anything from such groups, except the general layout of the dungeon, or at least that part that you absolutely need to trespass to finish the quest.

Therefore I prefer to first solo a dungeon and take my time about it, too. That way I can run at my own speed, carefully explore each and every corner, read whatever bit of info is provided along the way, and learn the important bits you need to know for finishing the quest, or just a bit of flavor story. I often sneak even with a non-sneak build, just to get a better idea of my surroundings before actually attacking a group. When I find a group too challenging to just roll into, I'll pull back, and try to draw some away from the group with ranged attacks.

As I said, it takes time, and sometimes no amount of careful advancement can prepare me for surprises springing on me. But on my second run I usually know these particular spots, and if I feel I'm lacking the means to overcome them without severe use of resources, then I simply don't bother running it again on solo. When i then join a group for such a qust however, I already know the layout and what to watch out for, and that is to the advantage of the group.

If I fail to solo a quest even after careful exploration and planning (on the retries), then I know I need a group. If I run with a group and fail I'll never know (being an unexperienced player myself) whether it's the group or myself that's lacking.

Cyr
04-02-2010, 12:30 PM
Stacking SR as drow enhancements that others are talking about sounds great.

OP's second idea...omg no. Dungeon Scaling would have to be renamed impossible to fail mode.

Aschbart
04-02-2010, 01:20 PM
I too like the idea of boosting the SR enhancements in some way to the point where they actually make sense compared to readily available items or spells.

Regarding shuriken - I actually like the flavor, but shuriken in general suffer greatly from the lack of useful returning variants, and the lack of containers for throwing weapons! Shuriken should have a greater attack rate than other ranged weapons (I know this breaks PnP rules - but nobody will ever use them without some kind of boost), to make up for the lackluster damage.