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View Full Version : Dear Devs—more monk suggestions from Creeper



Creeper
03-14-2010, 03:34 PM
First off, thank you very much for Touch of Death! It’s exactly what monks needed. I know I complained on here at least fifty times about how monks needed a high burst damage ability to take down self-healing end bosses—no more; Touch of Death absolutely solved that problem. I no longer have ANY problems with DPS. Thanks again!

Now for the suggestions, commentary, and observations section of this post:

Handwraps: We still need more (or even one) useful, high-level, named handwrap (not kama) with attributes that are similar to green steel. Making uber kamas and quarterstaves does not help pure monks very much (espically TR’ed ones). For instance, I would absolutely love to see BODYFEEDER handwraps!

Armor: It is now impractical (for end game and especially epic) to make high armor monks. BIG PROBLEM. I have been working on my third reincarnation template with my monk and have decided to completely ignore armor (just like the mobs have) instead, maxing out strength and constitution. As everyone keeps saying, hit points are the new AC—it’s absolutely true. This admission hurts no one more than the monk class… Which leads me to:

Hit points: We need more of them. If we can’t rely on AC (without completely gimping everything else) to mitigate damage, and you are going to classify us (as you should) as a melee class, we absolutely need a toughness enhancement line.

Drop rates: Returning shuriken need to drop more often as end rewards. Transmuting handwraps need to drop more often. I have been playing monk almost exclusively since their implementation and have had two random transmuting handwraps drop for me…

Shuriken: Still suck. Monks still have no ranged viability. Shuriken damage should scale with monk level as unarmed does or be given a boost beyond 1d2 for hyper-inflated DDO mob stats.

Healing Ki: For pure monks, should be given a boost and should scale with MONK level ONLY.

DPS: fixed as far as I am concerned.


Now for the complaints section:

I appreciate all the bonuses monks get. In my experience monks always walked on the threshold of overpowered and underpowered. If built right pure monks used to be overpowered. No more. Splash monks are now even more powerful when compared to pure than before, and of course, in turn, pure monks are gimped in comparison.

My next incarnation will be 2/18 monk/fighter. It pains me to do this because I will miss my monk stuff.
The truth is that “monk stuff” just isn’t that useful anymore, endgame, when I can make an unarmed fighter/monk that does more DPS, has more HPS, better enhancements, and more feats. This upsets me and it should upset you too.

This is being said with the hope that by the time I reach level twenty again (in about seven years it looks like) you will have implemented changes that encourage me to go pure monk again. I hope that the monk PREs will fix some of the problems I mention...

Right now the reason to go pure monk (running fast, saves, armor, and finishers) are far overweighed, to me, by something as simple as… 200 more hit points. Tack onto that a 18-20 unarmed crit range and I’m sold.

Angelus_dead
03-14-2010, 06:27 PM
Armor: It is now impractical (for end game and especially epic) to make high armor monks. BIG PROBLEM. I have been working on my third reincarnation template with my monk and have decided to completely ignore armor (just like the mobs have) instead, maxing out strength and constitution. As everyone keeps saying, hit points are the new AC—it’s absolutely true.
That is a problem with the design of "epic" content, not the monk class.


Hit points: We need more of them.
Monk hp are just fine, especially since they have healing amplification.


Shuriken: Still suck. Monks still have no ranged viability.
Monks don't need ranged viability any more than fighters or paladins do.

The problems with monk ranged attacks are mostly just questions of consistency:
1. A shuriken is a centered weapon, so Ki effects should work with them.
2. The Thousand Stars enhancement should not be pathetic.


There's an additional concern you didn't mention:
Due to design flaws, melee weapons with long reach are currently noticeably better. Monks don't have that. The situation should be equalized in this regard.


The truth is that “monk stuff” just isn’t that useful anymore, endgame, when I can make an unarmed fighter/monk that does more DPS, has more HPS, better enhancements, and more feats
Do you honestly think Weapon Spec, Kensei 3, and Haste boost will make up for base damage die, Enduring Strike, Touch of Death, Wind Stance 4, Improved Evasion, and a bucket of other bonuses?

zealous
03-14-2010, 06:41 PM
Do you honestly think Weapon Spec, Kensei 3, and Haste boost will make up for base damage die, Enduring Strike, Touch of Death, Wind Stance 4, Improved Evasion, and a bucket of other bonuses?
Can you show some numbers indicating otherwise? =)

Creeper
03-14-2010, 07:23 PM
Monk hp are just fine, especially since they have healing amplification.


Do you honestly think that you telling me monk HP are just fine will make me change my opinion?



Monks don't need ranged viability any more than fighters or paladins do.


What does this even mean? That you think monks are just as good with ranged weapons as fighters and paladins?



Do you honestly think Weapon Spec, Kensei 3, and Haste boost will make up for base damage die, Enduring Strike, Touch of Death, Wind Stance 4, Improved Evasion, and a bucket of other bonuses?

Yes, if I didn't why would I have posted this?

Aesop
03-14-2010, 08:00 PM
Handwraps: We still need more (or even one) useful, high-level, named handwrap (not kama) with attributes that are similar to green steel. Making uber kamas and quarterstaves does not help pure monks very much (espically TR’ed ones). For instance, I would absolutely love to see BODYFEEDER handwraps!


Honestly, I would perfer this as an ability of Earth Stance instead of as a Bodyfeeder ability of Handwraps. As it stands Earth Stance is pretty much useless with the exception of opening up the strikes... No one really uses it. That said, more interesting Handwrap drops wouldn't be a bad thing over all.




Armor: It is now impractical (for end game and especially epic) to make high armor monks. BIG PROBLEM. I have been working on my third reincarnation template with my monk and have decided to completely ignore armor (just like the mobs have) instead, maxing out strength and constitution. As everyone keeps saying, hit points are the new AC—it’s absolutely true. This admission hurts no one more than the monk class… Which leads me to:


This actually isn't a big change from what it used to be before monks came out. There are loads of issues with AC in DDO.




Hit points: We need more of them. If we can’t rely on AC (without completely gimping everything else) to mitigate damage, and you are going to classify us (as you should) as a melee class, we absolutely need a toughness enhancement line.

I disagree. HP for Monks aren't that bad overall. There are Toughness enhancements from Racial lines as it and they have the same basic hp as Rangers... if Monks need more hp then would you say Rangers do too? and Rogues have less what about them. Monks could also take the Tortoise line and get a few more HP as well.




Drop rates: Returning shuriken need to drop more often as end rewards. Transmuting handwraps need to drop more often. I have been playing monk almost exclusively since their implementation and have had two random transmuting handwraps drop for me…


I wouldn't complain if certain wraps items dropped more frequently, but honestly it hasn't been that much of a problem for me yet... though you have gone through it more tiimes as a monk then I.


Shuriken: Still suck. Monks still have no ranged viability. Shuriken damage should scale with monk level as unarmed does or be given a boost beyond 1d2 for hyper-inflated DDO mob stats.

Ranged sucks ... or rather Ranged is underpowered over all. Despite being a centered weapon Shuriken don't generate Ki, and don't apply the damage effects clickies... this is a symptom of a larger problem than just Monks though.



Healing Ki: For pure monks, should be given a boost and should scale with MONK level ONLY.

I think the Light and Dark Paths should have tiers like the elemental paths... and the Light side special abilities ...stink. All of them can be reproduced with Potions or Clickies, while the Dark side have unique and useful abilities.


DPS: fixed as far as I am concerned.

Only for one build type


Right now the reason to go pure monk (running fast, saves, armor, and finishers) are far overweighed, to me, by something as simple as… 200 more hit points. Tack onto that a 18-20 unarmed crit range and I’m sold.

200 more hp? well assuming the same Con... a fighter can get at most (including Toughness Enhancements and not including Tortoise line) 80 more hp than a monk... that's a Pure Fighter no monk levels. With the Monk Tortoise line its 60... now I could see wanting Tortoise to up hp a little more, but that's about as far as I see it going and even that is pushing it a little.


Overall the things about monks that I would like to see addressed

Light Side Phoenix line is utter garbage, trash it and redo it to something useful.

PrEs need to be released.

and Elemental lines improveds (except AIR which is pretty good over all)

just my thoughts

Aesop

Clay
03-14-2010, 08:06 PM
nice post Aesop.

Creeper you point a finger at Angelus... how about you, what qualifies you as any more an expert than Angelus? Are readers to assume that Monks in deed have problems because YOU say so?

Creeper
03-14-2010, 08:16 PM
nice post Aesop.

Creeper you point a finger at Angelus... how about you, what qualifies you as any more an expert than Angelus? Are readers to assume that Monks in deed have problems because YOU say so?

I am not pointing a finger at anyone Clay. I have offered my experiences as someone who has played a monk.

I am not saying that anyone is wrong, or that anyone's opinions are wrong, only offering my observations and opinions.

Clay
03-14-2010, 08:21 PM
I am not pointing a finger at anyone Clay. I have offered my experiences as someone who has played a monk.

I am not saying that anyone is wrong, or that anyone's opinions are wrong, only offering my observations and opinions.
ahh. my apologies then. fwiw I don't see the same problems as you do. My monks are my favorite melee to play. I love pulling aggro from bbns!

Creeper
03-14-2010, 08:29 PM
I disagree. HP for Monks aren't that bad overall. There are Toughness enhancements from Racial lines as it and they have the same basic hp as Rangers... if Monks need more hp then would you say Rangers do too? and Rogues have less what about them. Monks could also take the Tortoise line and get a few more HP as well.


Rangers and Rogues are listed as specialists and have several options with which to heal themselves.



Ranged sucks ... or rather Ranged is underpowered over all. Despite being a centered weapon Shuriken don't generate Ki, and don't apply the damage effects clickies... this is a symptom of a larger problem than just Monks though.


Agreed, and no one sucks more at ranged than a pure monk.



200 more hp? well assuming the same Con... a fighter can get at most (including Toughness Enhancements and not including Tortoise line) 80 more hp than a monk... that's a Pure Fighter no monk levels. With the Monk Tortoise line its 60... now I could see wanting Tortoise to up hp a little more, but that's about as far as I see it going and even that is pushing it a little.


Think about the extra fighter feats. You can take them for your TWF line and imp critical which frees up nine feats with which to take toughness. That may seem a little extreme but sit down with the character builder and work on a 2/18 dps build.

Power Attack
Three TWF feats
Imp Critical
Weapon focus x3
Weapon specialization x2
Stunning blow

You get two free monk feats. Ten free fighter Feats. And eight regular feats if Human. 20 feats all together.

On a dps build, what would you spend all those feats on?

Creeper
03-14-2010, 08:36 PM
ahh. my apologies then. fwiw I don't see the same problems as you do. My monks are my favorite melee to play. I love pulling aggro from bbns!

Are they pure monks? The only ones I see on your profile are two level monk splashes although we know how buggy MYDDO.com is!

Creeper
03-14-2010, 08:42 PM
Lol.

Alright, if you feel strong enough to give me negative rep for this thread I am done with it.

Please disregard all my comments and suggestions that you don't agree with! I was wrong!

Back to playing the game for me!!! :D

ripperj
03-14-2010, 09:38 PM
Lol.

Alright, if you feel strong enough to give me negative rep for this thread I am done with it.

Please disregard all my comments and suggestions that you don't agree with! I was wrong!

Back to playing the game for me!!! :D

buddy, your abandoning your own thoughts, oppinions and beliefs because some punk out there
gave you neg rep?

just because the dudes with long green lines don't agree with you, doesnt mean you should cave in under
threat of neg rep

Kintro
03-14-2010, 10:05 PM
I agree about the handwraps, especially Transmuting but I think HP and AC are fine.

My Monk's AC may be meaningless on Epic but the higher to-hit due to unarmed not having the dual-wield penalties is certainly helpful there. As are the very fast attacks when combined with Weighted. Also, with his AC, HP and saves he's just about unkillable anywhere else.

The only other things I'd like addressed regarding Monks are Stunning Fist+Weighted, Finishing Moves disabling CE and PrEs.

Aesop
03-14-2010, 10:25 PM
Rangers and Rogues are listed as specialists and have several options with which to heal themselves.


So do monks. They could go Light Path FoL and Healing Ki, they have Pots as do all others and they have WHoleness of Body for between heals. In addition they have the ability to take Healing enhancing abilities... which are quite nice.






Agreed, and no one sucks more at ranged than a pure monk.


I'd argue that that is irrelevant, fix ranged in general and you'd help MOnks Ranging out as well... now there are aspects of Monks Ranged Combat that should be enhanced as well... I think I mentioned a couple before. Ki gain with Shuriken and Ki Elemental attacks with them as well (not to mention 1000 stars thingy which I've not used but apparently blows




Think about the extra fighter feats. You can take them for your TWF line and imp critical which frees up nine feats with which to take toughness. That may seem a little extreme but sit down with the character builder and work on a 2/18 dps build.

Power Attack
Three TWF feats
Imp Critical
Weapon focus x3
Weapon specialization x2
Stunning blow

You get two free monk feats. Ten free fighter Feats. And eight regular feats if Human. 20 feats all together.

On a dps build, what would you spend all those feats on?

Well that arguement completely ignored the fact that Monks have their own abilities. Of course Fighters have a lot of Feat... that's ALL they get.Monks have Evasion, Improved Evasion, Diamond Soul, Insane saves, Immunity to Disease and Poison, innate healing ability, inate damage types, highest base damage die in the game, DR/EPIC, Abundant Step, amd a host of other abilities.

All of that and they don't have PrEs yet... Can you imagine if the power level of those are on par with say FB or Tempest?

Now the fact that most of the Feats aren't great leaving Fighters with only so many options isn't a Monk problem, its a FIghter Problem. It leads to only 2-3 builds that are even viable...You want to feel bad for someone its the fighters with all those Feat and nothing to spend them on.

Aesop

Emili
03-15-2010, 12:41 PM
So do monks.

Now the fact that most of the Feats aren't great leaving Fighters with only so many options isn't a Monk problem, its a FIghter Problem. It leads to only 2-3 builds that are even viable...You want to feel bad for someone its the fighters with all those Feat and nothing to spend them on.

Aesop
I was thinking the same thing a long time ago when I saw the Kensai PrE ... my thought was why the bloody hell would anyone build arround the Ki in the 18 level Kensai PrE? needing at least two monk levels ... not bad for evasion ... but now stuck with keeping centered and using monk weapons (including wraps) and with little monk enhancement you'd defeat the purpose behind unarmed. Little saves, smaller Dps and mana sponge... only stunning blow saves your plight... go back to Khopeshes my sweet twf fighter... either 12 kensai/tempest/mix or pure 20 for capstone, grab your haste boost and be happy - else should you wish to be an unarmed specialist follow a monastic calling ... greater wind stance, survivability and Ki are more attune there.

Danneskjold184
03-15-2010, 03:05 PM
I was going to make a separate thread, but it'll work here.


I'd like to see Handwraps with a suffix effect that increases the DC of Quivering Palm. Much like weighted handwraps add 2dc, 4dc...