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infernalmagiks
03-14-2010, 04:03 AM
I finally got around to making a new sorcerer. My first character back in September was a human sorc but I decided at level7 it was far too squishy for my liking, especially as I solo a lot.
Now I have a WF sorc at lvl16 which I'm liking a lot.

My issue is that I am worried that, by lvl20, I'm not going to have much HP to survive harder quests.

I am sitting at 220hp at lvl16.

Base con 14 +6 iitem
Minos Legens +20
Improved False life ring +20 (Will get Greater False Life as soon as I find something that's not 1.5mil gp)
WF Constitution Enhancement II

I will use a +2 tome either when I find one or when I can afford to buy one from the AH, which probably won't be for some time.
At some point I will get around to doing the GH quests and get the favor required for +10hp.

My question is this: I have 1 more feat due to me. At the rate I am going with HP values, is it worth me taking Toughness as my last feat? I currently have Maximize, Empower, Heighten, Extend and Spell Focus: Conjuration (which I may swap out later after deciding on my final spell list).

Many thanks in advance.

As a side note... Am I going to have problems landing Enchantment spells being WF with slightly less charisma? So far I've been mostly nuking stuff and my FoD lands pretty regularly. I have bracers with +1 to spell schools which I switch around as necessary.

Rice
03-14-2010, 04:18 AM
Don't forget Rage for +2 more con!

Also, you can get more hp from greensteel items as well.

Humperdink
03-14-2010, 04:23 AM
My Human sorcerer has 352HP base (no buffs) with a 24 Con using the Toughness feat and Racial Toughness. When I craft a 45Hp Greensteel item, I will probably get rid of the feat. My recommendation is to drop Spell Focus: Conjuration for Quicken and take Toughness. Work on getting your HP over 300. With that and Quicken you will be able to survive most any content. Once you get more gear over time and your HP climbs higher you will have a better idea what the balance is of HP to difficulty of content and maybe even end up swapping out Toughness.

Sequell
03-14-2010, 04:40 AM
:)
My Human sorcerer has 352HP base (no buffs) with a 24 Con using the Toughness feat and Racial Toughness. When I craft a 45Hp Greensteel item, I will probably get rid of the feat. My recommendation is to drop Spell Focus: Conjuration for Quicken and take Toughness. Work on getting your HP over 300. With that and Quicken you will be able to survive most any content. Once you get more gear over time and your HP climbs higher you will have a better idea what the balance is of HP to difficulty of content and maybe even end up swapping out Toughness.

First: Never take Quicken on a Sorc.
Second: Toughness is a required feat on a WF Sorc
Third: Your HP will be over 400 with all proper gear without a problem. :)

infernalmagiks
03-14-2010, 04:42 AM
Excellent thank you.

It's good to have an idea of a total to work towards. I was going to leave out quicken as I've not once seen myself fail a concentration check and most spells so far fire off pretty quickly, but on your advice I shall get it.

Edit: Oh, some debate here eh?

I also forgot about the 45hp from GS items. I probably have most of the ingredients needed to get started, just need to start running it for the shard. It means juggling around weapons and items which will be annoying but not entirely new. I want the SP items too so lots of work to do.

Thanks again.

Edit 2: So, first things first... Drop Spell Focus for Toughness. Gotcha. If I find stuff not working well I can get some focus on my last feat but we'll see.

Thanks.

Sequell
03-14-2010, 04:52 AM
Excellent thank you.

It's good to have an idea of a total to work towards. I was going to leave out quicken as I've not once seen myself fail a concentration check and most spells so far fire off pretty quickly, but on your advice I shall get it.

Edit: Oh, some debate here eh?

I also forgot about the 45hp from GS items. I probably have most of the ingredients needed to get started, just need to start running it for the shard. It means juggling around weapons and items which will be annoying but not entirely new. I want the SP items too so lots of work to do.

Thanks again.

Edit 2: So, first things first... Drop Spell Focus for Toughness. Gotcha. If I find stuff not working well I can get some focus on my last feat but we'll see.

Thanks.

I am not saying Quicken isn't needed on a Sorc...But...Quicken..ISNT NEEDED ON A SORC! Ok...I said it. :D

Take your Spell Pen Feats instead IMO. :)

Holla,
Seq

infernalmagiks
03-14-2010, 05:05 AM
I am not saying Quicken isn't needed on a Sorc...But...Quicken..ISNT NEEDED ON A SORC! Ok...I said it. :D

Take your Spell Pen Feats instead IMO. :)

Holla,
Seq

That's a good point, just realized I do also have the first penetration feat and first 2 tiers of the enhancements too.

Just farming Feast or Famine a few times for elven relics as its the only GH quest I can really remember, then will check what syberis shards I have in the clerics bank for feat changes.

Sequell
03-14-2010, 05:08 AM
That's a good point, just realized I do also have the first penetration feat and first 2 tiers of the enhancements too.

Just farming Feast or Famine a few times for elven relics as its the only GH quest I can really remember, then will check what syberis shards I have in the clerics bank for feat changes.

Just saying, Toughness falls into the required category for me when I roll a caster. Too many benifiets to pass up compared to the **** the offsets it. :)

testing1234
03-14-2010, 05:24 AM
rather like having quicken on my sorc, still the spell pene feat is much more essential.
what use is spell foucs conjuration if you cant get though their spell pene.(well except for webb and i do love webb)

/joins channel ilovewebb :)

a wf sorc without thoughness is like a sorc without webb... there ive said it

infernalmagiks
03-14-2010, 05:42 AM
rather like having quicken on my sorc, still the spell pene feat is much more essential.
what use is spell foucs conjuration if you cant get though their spell pene.(well except for webb and i do love webb)

/joins channel ilovewebb :)

a wf sorc without thoughness is like a sorc without webb... there ive said it

I have web, its really the sole reason I have heighten.

Planning on getting toughness like now, but there's horrendous mail lag and only 1 of the 4 mails full of plat I sent over has turned up.

infernalmagiks
03-14-2010, 05:59 AM
OK sorted

I switched Spell Focus: Conjuration (possibly just temporarily) for Toughness and reset my enhancements to take the first 2 tiers of Racial Toughness. I lost out on a couple of things I rarely use anyway, but it has left me with 258hp from the original 220 so I'm happy for now.

Thank you all for your advice.

shagath
03-14-2010, 06:01 AM
I went maximize, empower, heighten, spell focus:evo, greater spell focus:evo but as a drow I picked wrong starting con. Con 12. I'm at 17th level now. Without items 105hp but with minos legens(toughness), greater false life, con+1 tome and con +5 amulet I'm sitting now at 209hp(+greater heroism +15). I use two evocation spell focus items. It's pretty fun to see your scorching ray or dbf not being saved for half but I really miss higher CON.

Humperdink
03-14-2010, 04:43 PM
There are many *Warforged* sorcerers that take Quicken as a feat as the design of the their character and the way they play it depends a decent amount on it. These are usually people who play elite dungeons and perhaps solo a bit. Yes, most other races who play sorcerer should not take it. You will fail concentration checks. In Shavarath on Normal with a 6 man party Bearded Devils and Orthons can hit you for 40pts of damage or more. Concentration checks are 10 + damage so 50 in this case. If you have a 45 in your concentration skill you must roll 1d20 + 45 to beat it. That means 25% of the time you will fail your check in this example. And this is on Normal.

Again, not *all* WF sorcerers take and/or need Quicken. A good many players do take it to up their survivability in tough situations. It all depends on how you play your role in a party, if you solo, and what difficulty of content you usually run.

Humperdink
03-14-2010, 04:49 PM
As a side note... Am I going to have problems landing Enchantment spells being WF with slightly less charisma? So far I've been mostly nuking stuff and my FoD lands pretty regularly. I have bracers with +1 to spell schools which I switch around as necessary.

Use Enervation or Energy drain to offset their saves (which is -2 for every level drained, not -1) and use singular target enchantment spells (I use Suggestion), gather up the bad guys and drop a Symbol of Persuasion and run them back and forth through it a couple of times, or cast Mass Suggestion/Charm a couple of times to raise your chance of grabbing some bad guys. All of these will increase your chances with a lower DC in the school of enchantment.

Humperdink
03-14-2010, 04:52 PM
I went maximize, empower, heighten, spell focus:evo, greater spell focus:evo but as a drow I picked wrong starting con. Con 12. I'm at 17th level now. Without items 105hp but with minos legens(toughness), greater false life, con+1 tome and con +5 amulet I'm sitting now at 209hp(+greater heroism +15). I use two evocation spell focus items. It's pretty fun to see your scorching ray or dbf not being saved for half but I really miss higher CON.

Scorching ray has no saving throw, evocation focus items do not stack with each other but they do stack with the focus feats, more HP will definitely make your life easier as an Evoker. :)

RATRACE931
03-14-2010, 05:03 PM
I Disagree with the need for Toughness or Quiken on a Sorc my newly made wh0reforge sorc will have 385hp at lvl 20 unbuffed without Toughness. And a concentration of at the LOWEST 51 so no real potential to fail there. My feats will be Sorc past life(Mental Toughness with a twang to it), spell pen x2, emp, max, hieghten, extend

kanbeki
03-14-2010, 05:14 PM
if you use displacement quicken is kinda a wash, if you don't quicken is nice, I use it while intimidating on my sorc. stands at 422 HP unbuffed no HP item. I will only displace myself in epic where a 52 concentration seems to be nonstop fail by itself

Humperdink
03-14-2010, 05:22 PM
Again, as the previous two posts have demonstrated, not all WF casters *need* toughness and quicken. It all depends on what level you are, what gear you have, how many HP you have, how you play your character, and what difficulty of content you are running. As I said on my Human sorc once I make my greensteel accessory I'll be at about 350HP without toughness. With a 40UMD I can automatically heal myself for over 200 points from a scroll assuming I make my concentration check. For me at that point I feel I will not need the toughness feat. For now, I'm using it.


I Disagree with the need for Toughness or Quiken on a Sorc my newly made wh0reforge sorc will have 385hp at lvl 20 unbuffed without Toughness. And a concentration of at the LOWEST 51 so no real potential to fail there. My feats will be Sorc past life(Mental Toughness with a twang to it), spell pen x2, emp, max, hieghten, extend

I respectfully disagree. With the 51 concentration the potential for failure does exist depending on the content being run. Just look at kanbeki's post above. But being a veteran player I'm sure you have a better sense of when and where that can occur and adjust your play style accordingly.

bobbryan2
03-14-2010, 05:55 PM
I Disagree with the need for Toughness or Quiken on a Sorc my newly made wh0reforge sorc will have 385hp at lvl 20 unbuffed without Toughness. And a concentration of at the LOWEST 51 so no real potential to fail there. My feats will be Sorc past life(Mental Toughness with a twang to it), spell pen x2, emp, max, hieghten, extend

With a 51 concentration, you'll start failing with damage equal to 10 + damage + spell level. For level 9 spells, they only had to do more than 32 damage to begin making you fail concentration checks. 52 damage, and you have no chance of success.

I'm not saying quicken is necessary, but 51 concentration is still going to make you play more carefully than a WF caster with the quickened reconstructions.

RATRACE931
03-14-2010, 06:08 PM
I respectfully disagree. With the 51 concentration the potential for failure does exist depending on the content being run. Just look at kanbeki's post above. But being a veteran player I'm sure you have a better sense of when and where that can occur and adjust your play style accordingly.

Thats fine, my play style is to hop around and avoid all damage when healing myself, In that case with displacement i dont forsee some1 with my play style ever needing Quiken. Know a few caster that do this in epics vons when we low man it they don't use quiken so they save SP.


With a 51 concentration, you'll start failing with damage equal to 10 + damage + spell level. For level 9 spells, they only had to do more than 32 damage to begin making you fail concentration checks. 52 damage, and you have no chance of success.

I'm not saying quicken is necessary, but 51 concentration is still going to make you play more carefully than a WF caster with the quickened reconstructions.

I was merely expressing my opinion that with my playstyle and what ive seen amongst the casters i group with quiken is taken but most never use it unless intimidating or otherwise purposfully taking a beating.

stockwizard5
03-14-2010, 06:15 PM
...Now I have a WF sorc at lvl16 which I'm liking a lot.

Base con 14 ...



This is an issue - what happened to your APs?

There is no excuse for not spending 2 to get to 16 (and really the debate for Caster-Sorc is 19 or 20), 14 (or even 16) is not in play.

And to answer your question 400 or 404 HP are common these days.

Aspenor
03-14-2010, 10:38 PM
I suppose I am a bit biased, so I'll take a wild guess at the average to be about as Stock said, 400.

Personally my human sits at 457 unbuffed, and 517 buffed, with a buffed 34 con and 1 Toughness feat.

Dark-Star
03-15-2010, 04:37 AM
557 on my WF, have toughness and quicken and would not switch either out.

infernalmagiks
03-15-2010, 04:43 AM
This is an issue - what happened to your APs?

There is no excuse for not spending 2 to get to 16 (and really the debate for Caster-Sorc is 19 or 20), 14 (or even 16) is not in play.

And to answer your question 400 or 404 HP are common these days.

Read just a little further and it says WF Con Enhancement II

But if by AP you actually mean Stat points... they went a little wrong yes.

I do agree that I should have put more into con in the first place. My plan is to take it to lvl20, munch some tomes hopefully, figure out the mistakes I made on it and then LR to fix them.

infernalmagiks
03-15-2010, 05:56 AM
Ok

Thanks to a previous post I realized that 14 base con was just too low, so I LR'd already. Took it to 17 giving me 284hp with WF Con enh II, improved false life, toughness and enh III, minos legens, +6 item. One day a +3 tome, but I'll grab a +1 later to even it out. Quite an improvement on the 220hp I had yesterday morning.

Still not sure about the whole Quicken thing, but I have 2 levels to make my decision. I solo a whole lot, but not so much elite content at the moment. As some have said, it would be useful to be able to quicken Reconstruct, and maybe Mass Charm Monster in case I get swarmed.

Many thanks all.

Varis
03-15-2010, 07:14 AM
even as the "Dex build Defender" I'll have to agree that 400 should be your target for any sorc, any race.

Quicken is handy but really a convenience feature at the expense of a lot of mana. Even with a low concentration skill, you still don't need it. If you're hurt move/jump away to heal. If you have trouble with that (crippled, dungeon alert, slowed, ice on ground, etc) then just time it. Wait for them to get their hit in, THEN cast repair or use a scroll. If you're just gonna panic and spam the heal button chances are you'll get interrupted.

Of course if you panic then perhaps quicken is a good idea after all =)

infernalmagiks
03-15-2010, 08:08 AM
even as the "Dex build Defender" I'll have to agree that 400 should be your target for any sorc, any race.

Quicken is handy but really a convenience feature at the expense of a lot of mana. Even with a low concentration skill, you still don't need it. If you're hurt move/jump away to heal. If you have trouble with that (crippled, dungeon alert, slowed, ice on ground, etc) then just time it. Wait for them to get their hit in, THEN cast repair or use a scroll. If you're just gonna panic and spam the heal button chances are you'll get interrupted.

Of course if you panic then perhaps quicken is a good idea after all =)

Haha yeah that makes sense. I tend to jump around a whole lot when being attacked and while soloing get plenty of practice at GTFOing when needed. So far there's really only been a couple of occasions that I've screwed myself into a corner and been so swamped I can't get out and ended up dying. My own fault there. Although Quicken may have allowed me to repair, I'm not sure how much it would have helped the situation.

It's going to be some time before I get GS HP items, although flagged I've not started Shroud runs on this character yet.

Just played about on the Character Generator.
Apparently with 17 starting Con, WF Con EnhII, Toughness and EnhIV, Greater False Life, +6 Con item and 45hp GS item I will end up with 377hp at lvl20. (No tomes)

+3 Tome will put it to 417hp
+10hp Gianthold Favor

That makes 427hp unbuffed.

I assume this is reasonable. Am I missing anything?

Dark-Star
03-15-2010, 12:13 PM
even as the "Dex build Defender" I'll have to agree that 400 should be your target for any sorc, any race.

Quicken is handy but really a convenience feature at the expense of a lot of mana. Even with a low concentration skill, you still don't need it. If you're hurt move/jump away to heal. If you have trouble with that (crippled, dungeon alert, slowed, ice on ground, etc) then just time it. Wait for them to get their hit in, THEN cast repair or use a scroll. If you're just gonna panic and spam the heal button chances are you'll get interrupted.

Of course if you panic then perhaps quicken is a good idea after all =)

Completely depends on if you play end game content (hard/elite ToD and epic quests and raids) or other content, and your role in that content. Quicken is off for me 98% of the time, but when it's on it's very very useful, and worth the feat and slight mana cost.

Shade
03-16-2010, 08:17 AM
Said it before and I'll say it again:
Toughness is a crutch relied on by poor players.

My sorc has done all the most difficult endgame content without deaths, without the feat.

Also he's a 12 base con drow that melee's often in epic content (Dreamspitter and Mass hold ftw)

HP: 405 buffed without toughness. It's plenty.

You stay alive on a sorc by making your enemies CC'd/Dead before they make you dead. Not by relying on an extra bit of padding for when you screw up. You make a mistake in difficult content, your dead, extra +60 hp or not.
Even if I could see a way to fit the feat, I certainly wouldn't waste the AP on the enhancements to make it wortwhile.

Quicken is a different subject. It's a great feat and really depends on your playstyle if you need it or not.

I guess if your build focus is one of those melee type warforged sorcs that purposley take allot of damage to help themselves deal more.. Toughness, Quicken, all the defensive you can get.. Makes sense.

But if your more of a traditionall caster. No. Cast fast, cast often, elimate the enemy before he eliminates you.

infernalmagiks
03-16-2010, 08:50 AM
Said it before and I'll say it again:
Toughness is a crutch relied on by poor players.

My sorc has done all the most difficult endgame content without deaths, without the feat.

Also he's a 12 base con drow that melee's often in epic content (Dreamspitter and Mass hold ftw)

HP: 405 buffed without toughness. It's plenty.

You stay alive on a sorc by making your enemies CC'd/Dead before they make you dead. Not by relying on an extra bit of padding for when you screw up. You make a mistake in difficult content, your dead, extra +60 hp or not.
Even if I could see a way to fit the feat, I certainly wouldn't waste the AP on the enhancements to make it wortwhile.

Quicken is a different subject. It's a great feat and really depends on your playstyle if you need it or not.

I guess if your build focus is one of those melee type warforged sorcs that purposley take allot of damage to help themselves deal more.. Toughness, Quicken, all the defensive you can get.. Makes sense.

But if your more of a traditionall caster. No. Cast fast, cast often, elimate the enemy before he eliminates you.

I would have thought it would make some difference that your sorc is probably 4 years old with all the greatest equipment available for it and 4 years of practice using it.

Mine is 4 weeks old with nothing more than what some would consider vendor trash. Yes its nice to have a buffer while learning content and how to properly play one.

With all the new respec types available, there's nothing stopping me from working on my skills then dropping toughness later once happy with how things are going.

Diarden
03-22-2010, 08:23 AM
Said it before and I'll say it again:
Toughness is a crutch relied on by poor players.

My sorc has done all the most difficult endgame content without deaths, without the feat.

Also he's a 12 base con drow that melee's often in epic content (Dreamspitter and Mass hold ftw)

HP: 405 buffed without toughness. It's plenty.

You stay alive on a sorc by making your enemies CC'd/Dead before they make you dead. Not by relying on an extra bit of padding for when you screw up. You make a mistake in difficult content, your dead, extra +60 hp or not.
Even if I could see a way to fit the feat, I certainly wouldn't waste the AP on the enhancements to make it wortwhile.

Quicken is a different subject. It's a great feat and really depends on your playstyle if you need it or not.

I guess if your build focus is one of those melee type warforged sorcs that purposley take allot of damage to help themselves deal more.. Toughness, Quicken, all the defensive you can get.. Makes sense.

But if your more of a traditionall caster. No. Cast fast, cast often, elimate the enemy before he eliminates you.

Final boss of Epic OOB. Flesh to Stones, then hits you with a 410 disintegrate. 405 buffed without toughness? You're dead every time.

Shade
03-22-2010, 07:11 PM
Final boss of Epic OOB. Flesh to Stones, then hits you with a 410 disintegrate. 405 buffed without toughness? You're dead every time.

Actually im only incapped (-5), then healed and good to go.

And I've done that quest some 60+ times and never seen anyone get fleshed to stone, much less myself. If he does, the save DC is low enough not to matter. Especially with the recurring save they added (every 6 second iirc)

Regardless I don't solo that quest on my sorc, so one of the melee surronding the guy would absorb the disintegrate anyways as I ran around working on the remaining Scorrow.

Also most of my standard crew for that quest carrys stone to flesh scrolls and it's not one I'm willing to pug unlike the vons.

Varis
03-23-2010, 07:13 AM
Actually im only incapped (-5), then healed and good to go.

And I've done that quest some 60+ times and never seen anyone get fleshed to stone, much less myself. If he does, the save DC is low enough not to matter. Especially with the recurring save they added (every 6 second iirc)

Regardless I don't solo that quest on my sorc, so one of the melee surronding the guy would absorb the disintegrate anyways as I ran around working on the remaining Scorrow.

Also most of my standard crew for that quest carrys stone to flesh scrolls and it's not one I'm willing to pug unlike the vons.

I never liked FTS spamming casters but a great epic 1v1 mage battle is von 2. No tricky spells, just a nukers slug fest. I freaking love it =)