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lppmor
03-11-2010, 07:33 PM
Reaching lvl 15 on my Cleric, and now comes a hard feat decision, specially because I don't know any quests and mobs I'll face from this point on. I'll buy the Gianthold content as soon as I reach lvl 15, and will try to solo those lvl 13 quests. After Gianthold my idea is getting Vale.

I consider my toon a solo focused Battle Cleric, currently with 22 Str, 24 Con and 28 Wis. For now I use my Greataxe a lot along with Divine Favor and Divine Power (unfortunatelly we don't have Righteous Might yet), but also like to use Destruction, as well as maximized/potency BB and Harm.

My ideas feat-wise for lvl 15 and 18 so far are:

1. Empower and Improved Critical. (for more spell and melee damage)
2. Mental Toughness line. (for more sp)
3. Necromancy Focus line. (for better Destruction and Harm)
4. Evocation Focus line. (for better Implosion later)
5. Spell Penetration line. (for more spell proc)

What you guys suggest for a good solo play?

Noctus
03-11-2010, 08:53 PM
To adequately answer your question, it would be good to know which feats you already have.

r3dl4nce
03-12-2010, 03:32 AM
Quicken if you don't have it

vVAnjilaVv
03-12-2010, 03:40 AM
Reaching lvl 15 on my Cleric, and now comes a hard feat decision, specially because I don't know any quests and mobs I'll face from this point on. I'll buy the Gianthold content as soon as I reach lvl 15, and will try to solo those lvl 13 quests. After Gianthold my idea is getting Vale.

I consider my toon a solo focused Battle Cleric, currently with 22 Str, 24 Con and 28 Wis. For now I use my Greataxe a lot along with Divine Favor and Divine Power (unfortunatelly we don't have Righteous Might yet), but also like to use Destruction, as well as maximized/potency BB and Harm.

My ideas feat-wise for lvl 15 and 18 so far are:

1. Empower and Improved Critical. (for more spell and melee damage)
2. Mental Toughness line. (for more sp)
3. Necromancy Focus line. (for better Destruction and Harm)
4. Evocation Focus line. (for better Implosion later)
5. Spell Penetration line. (for more spell proc)

What you guys suggest for a good solo play?

For GH and probably the Vale ur DC's will probably be ok for ur necrmancy spells, but u can forget about it after that. Ur not going to land it hardly ever if u did not keep wisdom maxxed. While it will help u get thru GH, I would look more at the long run if feat swapping will be to expensive for u and stay focused on ur melee and healing capabilities.

End game content will require high spell pen and high DC's to be effective.

I would have to say given ur a battle cleric, Improved Crit and Mental Toughness easily.

If u don't have quicken as said before, get it.

tihocan
03-12-2010, 05:46 AM
Would be nice to know what's your base Str/Wis too (starting stat + level up only).

Bacab
03-12-2010, 06:08 AM
if you want to solo...I would take quicken. Once you have quicken...you will wonder how you ever lived without it. Also Greater Spell Focus Evocation would be nice. Also drop Necromancy focus. Once you get Implosion, you will use it more than destruction and Implosion is Evocation. This allows you to "double dip". Blade Barrier becomes better and your insta-kill becomes better. Also Extend would be nice for you for buffs and Blade Barrier.

Also did you take a lvl of barb or FTR? I notice you use a greataxe. Or did you burn a feat for it?

lppmor
03-12-2010, 07:32 AM
Thanks for the tips.

My current feats: Greataxe Proficiency, Toughness, Power Attack, Extend and Maximize.
My stats: Str 22 (16 base + 6 item), Wis 28 (16 base + 6 item + 3 enhancements + 3 lvls).

I burned a proficiency feat because I want to stay pure as Cleric (for role playing reasons), and also love axes (going well along with my Dwarf enhancements). Fighter lvl would be good, I know, but I'm really enjoying to stay pure.

In relation to Quicken, I really would like to avoid that if I can, since I don't think I'll have enough pacience to switch it on/off all the time, such as when casting buffs, and having it on all the time is probably a huge waste of sp. I believe I'll got bored soon or later. But that's a valid option anyway..

Zereth501
03-12-2010, 07:39 AM
Just the other day I was PUGing Gianthold Tor. We were crushing the monsters into a paste, nothing gave us any sort of trouble, until the second optional boss fight. (Not telling details to avoid spoilers.) Everything started out well, until we suddenly wiped for no reason. It turns out the cleric had no quicken spell and kept getting his heals interrupted.

Definitely take quicken. If you don't want to turn it on / off all the time, you don't have to. But there are places where you do need it.

tihocan
03-12-2010, 09:55 AM
Yep, Quicken is a must. It is situational, yes, but in these situations it can make the difference between a smooth fight and a party wipe.

So I'd suggest Quicken at L15, then Spell Pen at L18 (since your Wis is still your main stat). If you can craft a Mineral II greataxe you won't need Improved Crit, and it's a good all-around weapon for most of the high level content.

Lymnus
03-12-2010, 10:00 AM
My current feats: Greataxe Proficiency, Toughness, Power Attack, Extend and Maximize.
My stats: Str 22 (16 base + 6 item), Wis 28 (16 base + 6 item + 3 enhancements + 3 lvls).
As you're probably aware at this point, that's a poor build. Even for a battle cleric.

Are you a dwarf? Makes me think so with Greataxe Prof. If so, switch to DA/Shield. Frees up that feat for Empower Healing. It's good to have this feat so you can spend more time swinging and less time healing.

Also, consider switching out Toughness for Quicken. Quicken is exceptional at times. You could take off Extend for Quicken, as well.

Last two feats, in my humble opinion, should be Spell Penn. and Improved Spell Penn if you ever intend on doing any CC. If you have a 15/16 Dex, TWF/ITWF might actually not be a bad choice.

vVAnjilaVv
03-12-2010, 10:01 AM
Not too mention if people catch on that u don't have quicken u can forget about getting into raids as a healer.

I notice u don't have hieghten either, really at that point u may as well forget casting any kind of non damage DC spells like Destruction. Implosion u will get some hits on, but again with no spell school focus and no spell pen it's going to miss a lot. I'm still a little fuzzy on if Implosion has spell resistance or not , I know it originally said no in the description but I think it actually does.

Ur going to be wasting ur mana a lot of the times.

tihocan
03-12-2010, 10:25 AM
Are you a dwarf? Makes me think so with Greataxe Prof. If so, switch to DA/Shield.
I wouldn't do that, that's a huge loss in melee DPS.


I notice u don't have hieghten either, really at that point u may as well forget casting any kind of non damage DC spells like Destruction
You don't need Heighten on a Cleric to land offensive spells like Destruction. It doesn't make such a huge difference.

lppmor
03-12-2010, 10:29 AM
Are you a dwarf? Makes me think so with Greataxe Prof. If so, switch to DA/Shield. Frees up that feat for Empower Healing. It's good to have this feat so you can spend more time swinging and less time healing.

Dwarf Cleric, yes. But one thing I forgot to mention is that my build is exclusively for solo play. I play other toons when I'm in the mood for a group, not this one. So, I don't think Empower Healing would make me any good, since I usually even use my hireling as healer between fights, with very few needs for Heal on myself.

Also, since I depend on myself to kill everything, and sp are not unlimited, my idea was keeping the greataxe with power attack for killing random mobs, saving BB and other spells for large fights.

Anyway, the spell penetration line seems really nice, since probably most mobs on lvl 15+ quests probably have SR, right?

Lymnus
03-12-2010, 10:35 AM
I wouldn't do that, that's a huge loss in melee DPS.
I wouldn't take a Prof. Feat, either. I'd just dip into Pally or Fighter. But, without knowing his entire build, that's probably the best suggestion.
;)

And, they do, yes. But it only applies to non-damaging spells, such as Destruction or Implosion.

vVAnjilaVv
03-12-2010, 10:38 AM
You don't need Heighten on a Cleric to land offensive spells like Destruction. It doesn't make such a huge difference.

Where the OP is at now, no it's not going to make a huge difference for a spell like destruction, by end game tho, it will, when even two DC points can make a very large difference.

Id really like to know what the exact wisdom breakdown on this build is. I am guessing it might not have all the level ups put into wisdom, this is another thing that is going to hurt DC's.

I'm not saying this build can't be effective but u know as well as I do that most DC spells can only be consistantly cast by maxxed out casting stat builds and usually a lot of times they have spell school feats and high spell pen as well as hieghten for end game.

Ur DC's my be ok in GH, but when u start moving into higher end content, with this build, I can assure u they won't be.

vVAnjilaVv
03-12-2010, 10:47 AM
Dwarf Cleric, yes. But one thing I forgot to mention is that my build is exclusively for solo play. I play other toons when I'm in the mood for a group, not this one. So, I don't think Empower Healing would make me any good, since I usually even use my hireling as healer between fights, with very few needs for Heal on myself.

Also, since I depend on myself to kill everything, and sp are not unlimited, my idea was keeping the greataxe with power attack for killing random mobs, saving BB and other spells for large fights.

Anyway, the spell penetration line seems really nice, since probably most mobs on lvl 15+ quests probably have SR, right?

U really need to look at ur overall build tho, in someplace like Shavarath u are just not going ot be effective with CC type spells other than maybe Blade Barrier, and If ur not getting up to at least a 30-32 wisdom without shroud gear, even the non evasive mobs will save a lot on that so they will be taking half damage.

And a lot of higher level mobs do have SR, they also have higher saves tho too. I think ur non damage DC spells will be fine up to the Vale on normal, after that u may start running into some issues.

If u do plan on going to AMarath be aware that all the mobs there have static Greater Heroism on them, which automatically bumps up there already high saves by another +4.

tihocan
03-12-2010, 10:51 AM
Id really like to know what the exact wisdom breakdown on this build is. I am guessing it might not have all the level ups put into wisdom, this is another thing that is going to hurt DC's.
He posted it above, he is basically only at -2 below max Wis (16 start instead of 18, all level-ups in Wis). That's still good enough for DC-based spells.

Rusty_Can
03-12-2010, 11:24 AM
Are you a dwarf? Makes me think so with Greataxe Prof. If so, switch to DA/Shield. Frees up that feat for Empower Healing.


Dwarf pure clerics aren't proficient with Dwarven Axes; he would need to spend a feat or to multiclass to any martial class (and he has already stated he would prefer not). As for Empower Healling, it is often a poor choice for battlecasters; Maximize and Empower feats are much better options: they help with healing and offensive casting; he took Maximize.



Also, consider switching out Toughness for Quicken. Quicken is exceptional at times. You could take off Extend for Quicken, as well.

He is a melee-focused cleric, he needs hit points: don't drop Toughness. Extend is nice for short-term buffs (e.g. Divine Power, Divine Favor, Recitation, Prayer, Holy Aura) and helps DPS (e.g. Blade Barrier, one of your best spells).

OTOH, aye, take Quicken: with Quicken and Maximize, you will be able to heal reliably, if you decide to group with other people. When you are surrounded by foes, a quickened maximized BB will save the day.



Last two feats, in my humble opinion, should be Spell Penn. and Improved Spell Penn if you ever intend on doing any CC.

- Without Heighten, DC of his crowd control spells (e.g. Greater Command, Symbols) is bound to be low-ish;
- Blade Barrier and Cometfall don't require Spell Penetration checks;
- Destruction, Implosion and Energy Drain do require Spell Penetration checks.

Personally, I would take Quicken and Spell Penetration or Quicken and Empower.

Btw, one or two fighter levels would greatly help this kind of build.

lppmor
03-12-2010, 11:29 AM
He posted it above, he is basically only at -2 below max Wis (16 start instead of 18, all level-ups in Wis). That's still good enough for DC-based spells.

Yes, that's my hope :)

At higher levels (Gianthold and Vale for now), since I want to go solo, I think I'll basically want to land Destruction (Implosion maybe, I still don't know the spell) and Greater Command. However, since Implosion does not allow SR (just noticed that going to the compendium), maybe the Spell Penetration feats got a little below on my priority list, leaving probably Mental Toughness and Quicken as the best options so far..

And thanks for all comments guys.

tihocan
03-12-2010, 11:41 AM
However, since Implosion does not allow SR (just noticed that going to the compendium)
Implosion is supposed to have an SR check. If it shows no SR in compendium it may be because it's a kind of self-buff. Or maybe it got bugged recently and lost it SR? (haven't used it in a while). If that's the case it's probably not working as intended.

Propane
03-12-2010, 12:08 PM
I know you want to stay pure.. but 1 level of ft with give you access to all weapons and tower shield, free up 1 feat for great axe and give you another fighter based feat...

lppmor
03-12-2010, 01:05 PM
Ok, Implosion has another description bug.

So, the spell penatration line in fact seems a must have. With +4 from feats and +3 from enhancements, that's +7 added to my already high caster level (from staying pure)..

vVAnjilaVv
03-12-2010, 01:08 PM
He posted it above, he is basically only at -2 below max Wis (16 start instead of 18, all level-ups in Wis). That's still good enough for DC-based spells.

No heighten as well as the lack of at least one spell pen feat with the addition of a base 16 wisdom is a lot going against u for endgame content. For GH...fine...for Reaver's Refuge and Amarath content tho...sorry...no way...spells are not going to land consistantly.


For epic...don't bother and use ur spell slots for something else.

The problem with this kind of build is u just spread urself way to thin, trying to cover healing, offensive casting and melee. What ends up happening is ur not really strong at any of them.

I think a cleric can be good at two of the three, but not all three, and more too the point I don't think they have it in thier class to be effective at melee and offensive casting, even a FvS. I think the setup is usually melee/healer or offensive caster/healer. Melee/offensive caster is really hard to make. Most melee battle clerics don't bother with DC spells and just concentrate more on thier melee capabilities........the most important thing if u ever do want to group with people is ur healing. U won't get shunned as a cleric for not being able to cast offensively to well, u will be tho if u can't heal that great.

And with no heighten...aside from maybe...and I say maybe ur 8th and 9th level spells......in places like Amarath and elite setting quests at higher levels, ur offensive DC spells are going to be resisted or saved on left and right.

The build will work to get u thru content, especially if ur solo'ing and can go at ur own pace...there is no doubt just for the fact that most mobs in the game are easy to hit in melee and u can self heal and buff.

I'd say at this point tho, if u intend on getting any raid gear, ur strong point is going to be ur ability to cure people.

U can easily solo this build to 20 tho, and u can easily make money with it and get to know areas, it's by no means a build that will not work, but mostly for personal use.....as u have stated already is ur intention. Raid Loot is nice to have tho :P

tihocan
03-12-2010, 01:44 PM
No heighten as well as the lack of at least one spell pen feat with the addition of a base 16 wisdom is a lot going against u for endgame content. For GH...fine...for Reaver's Refuge and Amarath content tho...sorry...no way...spells are not going to land consistantly.
Well, I disagree, at least to the extent where it implies it would work much better with Heighten, Greater Spell Pen and +2 Wis. Basically, if your spell is resisted a lot without them to the point it's not worth casting, then it'll also be resisted a lot with them. The only exception would be Implosion, where the gain is exponential due to the fact it triggers multiple times, so that +1 DC and +2 Spell Pen may make a useful difference.

Not saying an offensive-specced cleric shouldn't try to max its stuff, but you can still do a decent job without being maxed out in areas where offensive casting works.

JOTMON
03-12-2010, 01:58 PM
As a Battle cleric you want to maximize the damage on those BB and be able to cast spells while being hit without interruption.

So, Feats to have,
Maximize- check
Extend- check
Quicken- get this one
Empower- get this one (drop empower heal if you have it for for this one, +50%damage spells and mass cures/harm)

Heighten-usefull on soundburst and limited usefullnes for BB until you get to to level 16+. Raises the spell to the highest spell level you can cast at a cost/level. BB is effective against most mobs as they have low relfex, High refex mobs will typically save and take half damage anyway.

Take a Spell pen feat and enhancements to keep up, situational in GH, more prevelent in the Vale.

lppmor
03-12-2010, 02:13 PM
Not saying an offensive-specced cleric shouldn't try to max its stuff, but you can still do a decent job without being maxed out in areas where offensive casting works.

Since my goal is having a solo-focused Cleric able to reach high lvl, my initial idea was exactly building an all-around toon instead of focusing on casting or melee. That's why I stared with Str 16 and Wis 16, and also had hybrid choices on feats. So, my goal is really reaching lvl 20, not exactly soloing lvl 20 quests. In fact I'm currently doing quests 2 levels below me on Normal, 4 levels below on Hard, and 6 levels below on Elite, and that's is working like a charm for now. I even don't mind if I have to drop one more level (with -25% exp penalty) if that means an easier solo life.

So, for now this build is working wonders, but from Gianthold and above everything is new to me :) From what I read so far, mobs seems to really start to get SR from this point on, and the spell penetration feats are looking a very nice option since I really want to get something from Implosion and other nice spells.

vVAnjilaVv
03-12-2010, 02:18 PM
Well, I disagree, at least to the extent where it implies it would work much better with Heighten, Greater Spell Pen and +2 Wis. Basically, if your spell is resisted a lot without them to the point it's not worth casting, then it'll also be resisted a lot with them. The only exception would be Implosion, where the gain is exponential due to the fact it triggers multiple times, so that +1 DC and +2 Spell Pen may make a useful difference.

Not saying an offensive-specced cleric shouldn't try to max its stuff, but you can still do a decent job without being maxed out in areas where offensive casting works.

With that setup, a loss of +2 to level 8 spell DC's, +3 to level 7, +4 to level six and so on u get the picture. Sorry that is huge for endgame content.....to the point of most of ur offensive spells being useless. No spell pen feat neither....
typically the easiest item to get is a spell pen 7 sceptre and greater spell pen 6 for spells below that.

Unless u luck out on ur DT armor and I know there are a couple other hard to get spell pen items that do go higher....ur looking at a max spell pen of 23 for for level 8 and 9 spells and 26 if u get all the enhancements which mind u is 12 AP's.

I am also talking about very high end content, if ur trying to say this build will be fine with DC spells in a place like Amarath with this build....sorry that's just false info IMO.

There are casters specced in both spell schools, have all the spell pen feats and enhancements and very high casting stats that still complain about Amarath being to hard.

vVAnjilaVv
03-12-2010, 02:21 PM
Since my goal is having a solo-focused Cleric able to reach high lvl, my initial idea was exactly building an all-around toon instead of focusing on casting or melee. That's why I stared with Str 16 and Wis 16, and also had hybrid choices on feats. So, my goal is really reaching lvl 20, not exactly soloing lvl 20 quests. In fact I'm currently doing quests 2 levels below me on Normal, 4 levels below on Hard, and 6 levels below on Elite, and that's is working like a charm for now. I even don't mind if I have to drop one more level (with -25% exp penalty) if that means an easier solo life.

So, for now this build is working wonders, but from Gianthold and above everything is new to me :) From what I read so far, mobs seems to really start to get SR from this point on, and the spell penetration feats are looking a very nice option since I really want to get something from Implosion and other nice spells.

Well like I said before....u will level to 20 easily with this build, even solo, u could probably even do it on a TRx1 and a little more painfully on a TRx2, but just a first time around character, the XP in this game is in overabundance.

tihocan
03-12-2010, 04:00 PM
So, my goal is really reaching lvl 20, not exactly soloing lvl 20 quests.
You should be able to solo the high level quests (Amrath / Inspired Quarters) without much trouble on such a build.