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JustWinBaby
03-11-2010, 11:46 AM
I know heavy mace's base damage is 1d8. A rapier is 1d6. They are both 1 handed weapons. My character is proficient with both. Currently a 1 Rogue/1 Wizard with a 17 strength and I think a 12-14 Dex. This character will be mainly melee, as I also plan on leveling some Ranger levels as well.

My question is, which weapon should I be using. I mean on paper it looks like the heavy mace is better, every aspect of it. But it seems like I am missing a TON. Is there something different about the 2 weapons other than just the base damage, and the fact that one is Bludgeoning and the other is Piercing? I know my BAB is currently 0, and that might play a part in it as well. Any thoughts would be welcome.

blitzschlag
03-11-2010, 11:48 AM
if the enemy can be hit critical the rapier is way ahead of the mace. if not, the mace does 1 average damage more than the rapier.

JustWinBaby
03-11-2010, 11:52 AM
One of the things driving me towards the mace is the outrageoues number of undead in this game lol.

Once I level up, I'm going to be choosing Ranger, and my FE will be undead.

So I should choose FE Undead and stick with the Rapier and all will be well?

Also, which of those 2 weapons allows me to add Str bonus to damage, if any. Thanks.

tihocan
03-11-2010, 11:54 AM
Both add Str bonus to damage.
There are two main reasons to use rapier over heavy mace:
1. Rapier is better for crits (so yes, mostly useless against undead)
2. Rapier is finesseable (often very handy for rogues who tend to go Dex-based). This may be why you have trouble hitting with the Mace.

You might want to think about what build you are going to make out of this, because a splash of wizard on a rogue is most often a bad idea.

Edit: Hmm nm I re-read your OP, looks like you are Str-based. Definitely an odd build, can't say it won't work without knowing more, but it seems very suspicious at first sight.

Superspeed_Hi5
03-11-2010, 11:55 AM
1) all weapons add Str bonus to damage. (even if you are finesse build)
2) Maces are cheaper on AH

3) I dont have a 3) and lists of 2 are lame.

blitzschlag
03-11-2010, 11:55 AM
One of the things driving me towards the mace is the outrageoues number of undead in this game lol.

Once I level up, I'm going to be choosing Ranger, and my FE will be undead.

So I should choose FE Undead and stick with the Rapier and all will be well?

Also, which of those 2 weapons allows me to add Str bonus to damage, if any. Thanks.

strenght is the only attribute when it comes to damage. if you have weapon finesse (that only works with certain weapons, and heavy mace is not one of em) then your dex bonus gets added to the hit dice but not the damage dice.

rapiers are a poor choice against undeads for several reasons:
a) rapiers are piercing damage against whom most undead have a damage reduction against
b) undeads are immune to critical hits and so the advantage of the rapier is no more

Smexxy
03-11-2010, 12:05 PM
What kind of build are you going for? Also, undead are really only during the mid levels unless you are counting epic sands. Going for heavy mace, I would suggest going weighted. It seems weighted is the new fad as most everything can be hit with it. If you are going TWF, and IC:Piercing then rapiers are your best bet. A Min II and Radiance II rapier would ideal, or depend on the mobs a Rad II and a Lightning II.

Hjarki
03-11-2010, 12:10 PM
At level 2, I'd use the Heavy Mace. The difference is slight, but critical effects aren't very important at that level.

At higher levels, the Rapier will be almost always better due to the critical range. Keep in mind that even if your basic weapon damage doesn't increase on a critical, your critical-based weapon effects still occur even against 100% Fortification targets.

However, you really have to actually 'choose' a weapon unless you have a race/class/feat that gives you specific advantages with certain weapons.

JustWinBaby
03-11-2010, 12:19 PM
I'm going to be a 11 Ranger / 7 Wizard / 2 Rogue when all is said and done. I am a WF.

My stregnth is much higher than my dex.

Once I get my level in Ranger, I was thinking about using Longswords, or is there a better weapon out there? I will be 2WF once I get the feat for it.

Rogue for trapskills and 1d6 of Sneak Attack and Evasion, Wizard for Self buffing and party buffing and self healing, and Ranger for DPS.

The Rapier/H Mace question was really only for these low levels.

But to repeat/rephrase my question above, what pair of weapons would I most benefit from?

TheDjinnFor
03-11-2010, 12:23 PM
I know heavy mace's base damage is 1d8. A rapier is 1d6. They are both 1 handed weapons. My character is proficient with both. Currently a 1 Rogue/1 Wizard with a 17 strength and I think a 12-14 Dex. This character will be mainly melee, as I also plan on leveling some Ranger levels as well.

Totally off-topic, but that build looks really, really odd. High Str on any kind of wizard splash?

JustWinBaby
03-11-2010, 12:25 PM
Totally off-topic, but that build looks really, really odd. High Str on any kind of wizard splash?

Look at the post above this post. That may help explain things.

Wyrmnax
03-11-2010, 12:38 PM
Rapier is better. Unless the creature is immune to criticals.

Your comment about having so many undead in this game is strong, but not definitive. Withing the people that has been in this game for a while, it is known that lv 5-9 are the undead levels. It gets better after that, with less undeads around you.

tihocan
03-11-2010, 12:40 PM
I'm going to be a 11 Ranger / 7 Wizard / 2 Rogue when all is said and done. I am a WF.
Ah thanks, it makes more sense now :)

Note that Ranger 9 gives you evasion so that you may not really need that 2nd level of rogue. Taking a 8th level of wiz may be better, mostly for the extra spell slot.


But to repeat/rephrase my question above, what pair of weapons would I most benefit from?
For now just use the mace because the rapier won't give you much benefit and the mace is more useful overall (mostly to beat on skeletons).
Once you get your ranger level, use two-handed weapons. Switch to dual weapons (with a light weapon in off-hand) on your 2nd ranger level. Ideally khopesh in main hand if you can afford the feat (otherwise rapier if going for pierce, or scimitar if going for slash). Once you start being able to always be using divine power clickies, you can dual-wield non light weapons (again, ideally khopesh, otherwise rapier or scimmy).

Rydin_Dirtay
03-11-2010, 12:43 PM
edited: the OP addressed the point about the multiclass goal of the build

JustWinBaby
03-11-2010, 12:44 PM
Note that Ranger 9 gives you evasion so that you may not really need that 2nd level of rogue. Taking a 8th level of wiz may be better, mostly for the extra spell slot.



I'm aware of this, but I think getting the Evasion much sooner would be more beneficial, especially since I won't be Ranger 9, for a while, maybe like level 13-14. I also think getting more skillpoints now, when there's so many traps in the game, would be better. Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

Angelus_dead
03-11-2010, 12:49 PM
I'm going to be a 11 Ranger / 7 Wizard / 2 Rogue when all is said and done. I am a WF.
That is a poor selection of classes.


Once I get my level in Ranger, I was thinking about using Longswords, or is there a better weapon out there?
Weapons that are superior to Longsword include rapier, scimitar, heavy pick, light pick, kukri, and of course khopesh.


Rogue for trapskills and 1d6 of Sneak Attack and Evasion, Wizard for Self buffing and party buffing and self healing, and Ranger for DPS.
The wizard levels cannot provide useful buffs. Going Ranger19/Rogue1 would have trap skills, 1d6 Sneak Attack, Evasion, self buffing, party buffing, self healing, and DPS.



But to repeat/rephrase my question above, what pair of weapons would I most benefit from?
Rapier.

JustWinBaby
03-11-2010, 12:55 PM
What do you mean Wizards can't self buff? What is Bull's Strength, or Blur, or Displacement, or Stoneskin, or Haste? Not sure about you, but I think those are all pretty good.

Also, why is that selection of classes poor? What would you rather do? I have no interest in Tempest, so I don't care about getting Ranger 12.

Fattiest
03-11-2010, 12:59 PM
it looks like you should get a better feel for the game b4 you start builds like this, it looks like it may sound good for the first few levs but then be gimp as hell.

Try a standard fighter non multi/class and learn the game some.

JustWinBaby
03-11-2010, 01:01 PM
it looks like you should get a better feel for the game b4 you start builds like this, it looks like it may sound good for the first few levs but then be gimp as hell.

Try a standard fighter non multi/class and learn the game some.


This is not my first character. This is actually my fourth character. I'm no where near new to this game...but I'm not that experienced either, I know. If I'm doing something wrong, people are more than welcome to help me out :)

tihocan
03-11-2010, 01:13 PM
If I'm doing something wrong, people are more than welcome to help me out :)
Actually, it can work. Ranger 11 by itself is powerful enough that it doesn't matter much what you add on top of it, you'll have a hard time making it totally useless ;)
It's not going to be top DPS and you will be sometimes declined from groups by people who only want "perfect" builds, but it should still remain playable and work in most content.
I'm assuming you are planning to do a lot of soloing since this is when such multiclassing is most helpful.

gavagai
03-11-2010, 01:15 PM
What do you mean Wizards can't self buff? What is Bull's Strength, or Blur, or Displacement, or Stoneskin, or Haste? Not sure about you, but I think those are all pretty good.

What they mean is that only 7 levels of Wizard don't get you much that you can't get from gear, UMD and wand-whipping.

Bull's Strength -- these become obsolete when you get +4 and higher Stat items, around level 9 I believe.
Blur -- this is a nice one, but can be wand whipped
Displacement -- nice, but with only 7 levels will last a very short period of time. Can also be put on clickies at high levels.
Stoneskin -- Wands are level 7, and will be every bit as powerful as self-cast but without the SP cost.
Haste/Rage/&c. -- self casting is cheaper and more convenient, but these can also be potions or clickies.

So the higher level you get, there's a chance you'll feel your character excels at redundant things and is a little weaker at its "core" things -- like melee.

That said, what they leave out is the benefit of Quickened self-healing and limited offensive spells to offset you weaker melee. Namely, firewall.

I think your level breakdown isn't bad at all for learning the game, maintaining survivability, and enjoying a different kind of build.

Wyrmnax
03-11-2010, 01:27 PM
What do you mean Wizards can't self buff? What is Bull's Strength.

As soon as you can get a +4 STR item, bulls strenght is useless. I think thats lv 7.


, or Blur.

You can have a cloack with perma blur on it. You can also use wands of blur.


, or Displacement.

That ones a bit harder to get, but you can get from scrolls or a friendly wizard casting on you.


, or Stoneskin.

Clickie on the weapons you will have to make anyway from Shroud. Will take a while, but you will have them.


, or Haste?.

Potion. Friendly wizards. Wands. Scrolls.


Not sure about you, but I think those are all pretty good.

Also, why is that selection of classes poor? What would you rather do? I have no interest in Tempest, so I don't care about getting Ranger 12.

If you have no interest in tempest, then you shouldnt be going Ranger AT ALL.

Go full fighter and you will have more benefits than going Ranger if you are not getting tempest.

Anyria
03-11-2010, 01:32 PM
What do you mean Wizards can't self buff? What is Bull's Strength, or Blur, or Displacement, or Stoneskin, or Haste? Not sure about you, but I think those are all pretty good.

Also, why is that selection of classes poor? What would you rather do? I have no interest in Tempest, so I don't care about getting Ranger 12.

Let me first say that if you have fun playing your build then it is a success.

I think what A_D was trying to point out to you is that you may find it a little weaker than a 19 ranger/1 rouge at the end game.

Also, by the time you hit level 20, the buffs you speak are either irrelevant or can be handled by any class you are leveled up in with shroud gear.

Bull's Strength is useless if you are wearing a +6 STR item (very easy to find and useable at level 13)

Blur is good but there are many items (not just the crafted or epic types) that grant you this buff.

Displacement - see Blur - not as many, but they are out there.

Stoneskin - for a very reasonable expense of shroud ingredients you can get a far superior Stoneskin (Mineral I or second tier as some call it)

Haste - many clickies of haste out there on almost all slots. Also if you craft the haste item you can get extra benifits on the items.

All in all you can get the self buffing on a ranger with splashes of rouge and/or monk and get far more DPS without having to give up anything.

I said at the begining that if you have fun then go for it, the others that have posted are just trying to offer a bit of advice and save you some frustration towards the end of your levels. There's always reincarnate though.

Either way, good luck to you and happy hunting!

Superspeed_Hi5
03-11-2010, 01:46 PM
Wyrmnax & gavagai have the right idea. With enough UMD can you can scroll cast any spells you need - in this case mainly displacement and reconstruct as all the other things are available through wands and plentiful.

Duskheart trinket item can give a perma-10% blur as well as 20 hp.

I think you are thinking outside the box a little too much. Also when going ranger take outsiders as your 1st Favored enemy not undead. Undead is good for #2.

tihocan
03-11-2010, 01:59 PM
Also when going ranger take outsiders as your 1st Favored enemy not undead. Undead is good for #2.
Why would you do that? Early on you face a lot more undead than outsiders (especially since it's not just outsiders, but a subclass of them, which does not include mephits).

Superspeed_Hi5
03-11-2010, 02:14 PM
Why would you do that? Early on you face a lot more undead than outsiders (especially since it's not just outsiders, but a subclass of them, which does not include mephits).

If I understand rangers correctly your first favored enemy will have the highest bonuses correct? well in the end game you will rarely see undead and all the additional + to hit and damage will be more appreciated. Its not like undead at those levels are hard to deal with anyway.

IgorUnchained
03-11-2010, 02:22 PM
I think you should build what you want and have fun with it (while learning quickly what you did right and wrong).

I think that there are many ways to skin a cat, as you have seen. I also think the rapier point was made pretty well (for what you were asking).

Warforged and Wizard go together very well.

Warforged, Wizard, and Rogue go together very well.

I would keep those things, and if so inclined, check out the Warforged or Wizard subforums and see what they have that has a DPS option with WF/Wiz/Rog in mind. It would be much better than a triple multiclass (in my opinion), but would still allow for the rapiers, traps and locks, and as much magic as you can whip a wand at.

JustWinBaby
03-11-2010, 02:22 PM
If I understand rangers correctly your first favored enemy will have the highest bonuses correct? well in the end game you will rarely see undead and all the additional + to hit and damage will be more appreciated. Its not like undead at those levels are hard to deal with anyway.

That's fine and everything, but I don't really see this character making it all the way to 20. Not that I won't love the character or love the game, but I don't have the time to make a level 20 character. I'm MUCH more interested in making this character great for low-mid levels (like 12ish) rather than end game content.

On that note, what FE should I take? I know the Pit Fiend at the end is the main reason to take Outsiders 1st (correct me if I am wrong.) I'm not real worried about that.

tihocan
03-11-2010, 02:29 PM
If I understand rangers correctly your first favored enemy will have the highest bonuses correct? well in the end game you will rarely see undead and all the additional + to hit and damage will be more appreciated. Its not like undead at those levels are hard to deal with anyway.
AFAIK the bonus is the same for all FE's. But I may be wrong, since to be honest I never verified that. Can anyone confirm either way? (otherwise I'll add it to my list of things to test ;))

JustWinBaby
03-11-2010, 02:31 PM
AFAIK the bonus is the same for all FE's. But I may be wrong, since to be honest I never verified that. Can anyone confirm either way? (otherwise I'll add it to my list of things to test ;))

That is something I know :)

The Ranger's 1st FE gets +2 to the attacks.

Once the Ranger gets the 2nd FE he gets +2 to the 2nd FE, and an additional +2 to the first.

It's retroactive, all the way up to 20. So yes, the FE you chose 1st, will get +8 or whatever it is when the Ranger is level 20. And +6 to the 2nd FE. So on and so forth.

IgorUnchained
03-11-2010, 02:34 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=134019
Im one for making your own build and having fun without turning everything into a math equation.
That said, if you are thinking of going Warforged, there are some great builds in this thread that should give some direction/inspiration as well.

Ninetoes
03-11-2010, 02:39 PM
On that note, what FE should I take? I know the Pit Fiend at the end is the main reason to take Outsiders 1st (correct me if I am wrong.) I'm not real worried about that.

You answered your own question earlier in the thread, regarding undead. There's a f*ckton of them through 11 or 12. If you don't intend to cap your build, take whatever you think is going to be most beneficial based on your other 4 characters.

Kaganfindel
03-11-2010, 02:48 PM
DDOwiki disagrees.


Favored enemy
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Ranger 1
Description: At first level a Ranger selects a type of creature from the favored enemy list. Favored Enemy grants +2 to damage rolls against the chosen creature type. At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th) the Ranger selects an additional creature type from the favored enemy list and his damage bonus against all favored enemy types increases by 2.


Note:
For example, a Ranger selects Goblinoid as his favored enemy at first level and gets the +2 bonuses listed above. At fifth level, the Ranger is able to select Giant and will get a +4 damage bonus to both Goblinoid and Giant enemies. At tenth level he gets to select yet another class of enemy and the damage bonus on all of them increases to +6.

Superspeed_Hi5
03-11-2010, 03:13 PM
DDOwiki disagrees.

Well there you go. Feel free to FE undead for the metric **** ton of undead at that lvl. Just fyi you may decide to cap anyway so dont neglect outsiders for something like IDK magical beasts. Keep in mind that all the reavers in invaders are outsiders as well as the vale

JustWinBaby
03-11-2010, 03:29 PM
Well there you go. Feel free to FE undead for the metric **** ton of undead at that lvl. Just fyi you may decide to cap anyway so dont neglect outsiders for something like IDK magical beasts. Keep in mind that all the reavers in invaders are outsiders as well as the vale

I completely concur. Thanks to everyone.

BladedThesis
03-11-2010, 03:41 PM
strenght is the only attribute when it comes to damage. if you have weapon finesse (that only works with certain weapons, and heavy mace is not one of em) then your dex bonus gets added to the hit dice but not the damage dice.

rapiers are a poor choice against undeads for several reasons:
a) rapiers are piercing damage against whom most undead have a damage reduction against
b) undeads are immune to critical hits and so the advantage of the rapier is no more

Only the weapon damage wont crit. Any burst effects on the weapon will still take effect, even against enemies w/ heavy fort. As far as mace for undead, the only undead it will help on is skeletons. Zombies are DR/slash and wights/ghouls etc have no DR. Likely the reason you are missing is the 0 BAB as all your attacks and dmg are str based w/out finesse(dont use finesse your str is higher). I wouldn't choose one weapon over the other. Most melees keep a set of weapons for each situation. So you use rapier for critable mobs, something slashing for zombies, blunt for skele's etc. Many mobs are crittable and rapiers can rock, but keep in mind they are incredibly expensive as well. Just my 2 cents. You may want to examine your multiclass as well and determine what you want out of your splash lvls. Without proper planning taking the wrong splash can ruin toons.