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Schmoe
03-11-2010, 08:57 AM
I would like to add the suggestion that the devs or someone take a few minutes to provide some sign that they read this forum and acknowledge all of the great suggestions that people have posted here.

It doesn't have to be anything definitive, or decisive, or even indicative of which way Turbine is leaning. Just a comment along the lines of "Noted", so that people know the forum is being read.

Of course, my wish would be, every week or so, for someone to post a list of suggestions from the previous week that were being taken under consideration for development some time in the future.

Varr
03-11-2010, 09:15 AM
I'm not sure how many new threads are created daily, but I know it is alot. Specific corrections to bad behavior are monitored and posted to be seen in threads.

It is my opinion that there is a master development board the deves work to that they create.....a plan of action the drive the game development towards...... And on this board there are items or a sub catagory of player feedback form these forums. 3 or 4 items that have come up in thread after thread and thru reporion of player interest hacve filtered there way onto the board.

I don't believe that typically any one thread I'd revolutionary enough to by itself get a players desires put on the board and in turn requires acknoledgment.

The work in progress player respec is an example of this.....thread after thread requested it.....it found it's way onto the big board.....6 month (2years) later wala....player requested respecs. Noting the first thread, and each subsequant that it is a request that has been recieved and is under consideration......would be cumbersome IMO and additionally apply unnecessary pressures to address said issues and promise a solution.

Long story short, there seams to me no incentive to the game developers nor forums monitors to keep us abreast with what is on thier big board and thlake the time to acknoledge the threads that might have introduced the concept.

blitzschlag
03-11-2010, 09:19 AM
i think i have seen some of those "noted" messages left by officials. still 99.9% of the suggestions are whines or stuff that has pvp improvements as goal.

if the op needs a hug or a "well done son/girl" now and then to feel better, just post here and i'll provide it.

3/3 uses, restores 1 per week.

Schmoe
03-11-2010, 09:27 AM
i think i have seen some of those "noted" messages left by officials. still 99.9% of the suggestions are whines or stuff that has pvp improvements as goal.

Sure, there's a lot of chaff, but there are some gems, too. If this forum isn't just a glorified b-i-t-c-h-board and actually serves a purpose, then it's worthwhile to know that someone is taking time to sort the gems. Maybe I've missed it, but I think I've seen one thread get a response here in the 5 months I've been on the forums.


if the op needs a hug or a "well done son/girl" now and then to feel better, just post here and i'll provide it.

3/3 uses, restores 1 per week.

No, not me personally. This is borne probably more out of frustration at lack of transparency into the future plans of the game than anything else. That, and seeing soooo many neat ideas in this forum fade into the electronic void. Any information relating to future plans would be welcome.

Nott
03-12-2010, 05:48 AM
I think you can assume that every initial post in the suggestions forum has been seen by a Turbine employee. Expecting to be told your post has been read is not reasonable. Expecting any other form of official commentary is more unreasonable, for reasons I posted in your other thread here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2820497&postcount=5).

MadFloyd
03-12-2010, 09:20 AM
Devs aren't always able to read the forums on a regular basis; our development cycle is such that it can get mighty crazy at times and it seems there aren't enough hours in a day. Then, when we come up for air, we try to play catch up to some extent.

Suggestions are always appreciated and very helpful. Please do not take any lack of response from the dev team as indication that your ideas are going unheard.

SableShadow
03-12-2010, 09:21 AM
Devs aren't always able to read the forums on a regular basis; our development cycle is such that it can get mighty crazy at times and it seems there aren't enough hours in a day. Then, when we come up for air, we try to play catch up to some extent.

Suggestions are always appreciated and very helpful. Please do not take any lack of response from the dev team as indication that your ideas are going unheard.

tyvm! Can't rep you again yet, unfortunately. :(

totmacher
03-12-2010, 09:23 AM
Devs aren't always able to read the forums on a regular basis; our development cycle is such that it can get mighty crazy at times and it seems there aren't enough hours in a day. Then, when we come up for air, we try to play catch up to some extent.

Suggestions are always appreciated and very helpful. Please do not take any lack of response from the dev team as indication that your ideas are going unheard.

boy that sounds like an appropiate response from a normal human being. i don't like this concept. devs are supposedly to be inhuman monsters that wield a nerf bat like a 6 year old trying to crack a pinata at a birthday party

flynnjsw
03-12-2010, 09:28 AM
Snip...


No, not me personally. This is borne probably more out of frustration at lack of transparency into the future plans of the game than anything else. That, and seeing soooo many neat ideas in this forum fade into the electronic void. Any information relating to future plans would be welcome.


Maybe you are a transplant from the EU, or your join date is misleading, but someone that just joined the game in October talking about lack of transparency? Really? Does the game owe you something?

flynnjsw
03-12-2010, 09:29 AM
boy that sounds like an appropiate response from a normal human being. i don't like this concept. devs are supposedly to be inhuman monsters that wield a nerf bat like a 6 year old trying to crack a pinata at a birthday party

No no no...they are all supposed to be Cubes...:D

cdbd3rd
03-12-2010, 09:52 AM
tyvm! Can't rep you again yet, unfortunately. :(

Got it covered for ya.
;)

Schmoe
03-12-2010, 10:25 AM
Devs aren't always able to read the forums on a regular basis; our development cycle is such that it can get mighty crazy at times and it seems there aren't enough hours in a day. Then, when we come up for air, we try to play catch up to some extent.

Suggestions are always appreciated and very helpful. Please do not take any lack of response from the dev team as indication that your ideas are going unheard.

Thank you so much for the reply. I fully realize that expecting comment on everything is completely unrealistic. In fact, I think your comment here meets my request for some sign that the forum is being read and thought about. Consider my suggestion noted and acted upon :)

Thanks again.

Schmoe
03-12-2010, 10:29 AM
Maybe you are a transplant from the EU, or your join date is misleading, but someone that just joined the game in October talking about lack of transparency? Really? Does the game owe you something?

October was 6 months ago. That's a long time. I don't have entitlement issues and I'm not interested in comparing e-peen with regard to time invested.

Tarrant
03-12-2010, 10:34 AM
Everyone's favorite OCR team also regularly checks out this forum, and we haev an extensive list regarding player suggestions. We can't respond to every post, or even most, but your thoughts are always heard.

Borror0
03-12-2010, 11:53 AM
Devs aren't always able to read the forums on a regular basis; our development cycle is such that it can get mighty crazy at times and it seems there aren't enough hours in a day. Then, when we come up for air, we try to play catch up to some extent.

Suggestions are always appreciated and very helpful. Please do not take any lack of response from the dev team as indication that your ideas are going unheard.

Everyone's favorite OCR team also regularly checks out this forum, and we haev an extensive list regarding player suggestions. We can't respond to every post, or even most, but your thoughts are always heard.
Unfortunately, what you're fighting is a problem of perceptions. While you may read every suggestion and take our feedback into account, you also have to give us the impression that you do. If you don't give us anything to make us believe that you do, then we will most likely think you don't listen.

The truth of the matter is that, when players see long-standing issues - like a searchable Auction House or S&B and ranged combat imbalances - that are neither commented on neither addressed for literally years, your playerbase will start wondering whether you do listen to them or if the forums are a waste of time. If you do want to challenge that perception, then your actions should demonstrate that you do listen.

Ideally, that would mean not leaving a design flaw too long in them game but that would be an unrealistic goal. However, a more realistic goal would be to ask your OCR staff to make a list of the most talked about issues of the week/month and then drop a few strategic posts in threads relating to that topic.

SableShadow
03-12-2010, 12:04 PM
Ideally, that would mean not leaving a design flaw too long in them game but that would be an unrealistic goal.

"Too long" is, by definition, "too long"....so I take issue with describing it as "unrealistic". ;)

Last round of attack rate re-balancing, PrEs introduced, and some of the design choices in epics leave me scratching my head a bit. And don't get me started on the rogue capstone. :D

Borror0
03-12-2010, 12:22 PM
"Too long" is, by definition, "too long"....so I take issue with describing it as "unrealistic". ;)
Busted.

PrEs introduced, and some of the design choices in epics leave me scratching my head a bit. And don't get me started on the rogue capstone. :D
Likewise.

Personally, I would be interested to see the designers defend their design choice a little more on the forums. There are several choices that they make that leave me scratching my head and wonder what the hell they were thinking. For example, I can help but wonder how they could reach the conclusion that the Epic Sword of Shadows was just of the right power level. It's clearly too much of a progression jump on trash mobs. Having them trying to justify their choices to us would be positive in that, either they persuade us that their decision was good or they get to see arguments against their own decision.

Inkblack
03-12-2010, 12:23 PM
And don't get me started on the rogue capstone. :D
Would you be more vitriolic than me? I usually edit my posts down about 3 notches before I push Submit.

Actually, don't hold back. Squeaky wheel => grease.

Mjoll
03-12-2010, 12:46 PM
There was a mmo action-rpg called Dungeon Runners that had a site for ideas only. Players were posting suggestions and the devs would then move the suggestions to a couple of sections: "Possibly Usable Ideas" and "Potentially Not Stupid Ideas".

And the devs didn't had to pat everyone on the back by making an "Attaboy!" post so they don't hurt someone's feelings. The solution they had for this was very simple, requiring minimum effort from them: if the suggestions were taken into consideration by the development team they were tagged as "Under Review", "In Design" or "In Development".

So you didn't had to wonder if your suggestion was seen by devs but they consider it stupid or if they simply didn't saw it and missed on an awesome idea.

Bogenbroom
03-12-2010, 01:11 PM
Actually, don't hold back. Squeaky wheel => grease.

I think we have had adequate display that this is simply not true. Squeaky wheel => Less developer time spent on boards. The more we can keep our feedback constructive (and, in particular, not insulting) the more interaction we are likely to have.

That last is not, btw, directed at you Inkblack, but is a general statement. Not saying you are insulting or anything.

Dark_Helmet
03-12-2010, 02:48 PM
boy that sounds like an appropiate response from a normal human being. i don't like this concept. devs are supposedly to be inhuman monsters that wield a nerf bat like a 6 year old trying to crack a pinata at a birthday party

Speaking from experience? I mean the being at the birthday party whacking someone with a bat part...;)

Yes, we forget that developers are humans. I just wish management would let them communicate a little more.


Everyone's favorite OCR team also regularly checks out this forum, and we haev an extensive list regarding player suggestions. We can't respond to every post, or even most, but your thoughts are always heard.

Didn't know you worked at the Office for Civil Rights?

It was that or Trans******l oocyte retrieval and I know you ain't no Doctor!

Ustice
03-12-2010, 05:01 PM
Everyone's favorite OCR team also regularly checks out this forum, and we haev an extensive list regarding player suggestions. We can't respond to every post, or even most, but your thoughts are always heard.

Might I suggest something that has proven to be successful in other sites then? How about a "Noted" button on your side that would flag the thread as noted by either a particular person, or at least by SOMEONE at Turbine? It works great on sites like Facebook where it is easy to post, and unobtrusive. It wouldn't take any extra time, and would rest a lot of players' concerns for issues like this.

TechNoFear
03-12-2010, 10:09 PM
Everyone's favorite OCR team also regularly checks out this forum,

OCR? Optical Character Recognition?

Are you sure you didn't mean OCD?

Borror0
03-12-2010, 10:16 PM
OCR? Optical Character Recognition?

Are you sure you didn't mean OCD?
Online Customer Representative, my guess is. Basically, Tolero, Tarrant, Patience, Clover, Sapience and Frelorn.

Angelus_dead
03-12-2010, 10:36 PM
Everyone's favorite OCR team also regularly checks out this forum, and we haev an extensive list regarding player suggestions. We can't respond to every post, or even most, but your thoughts are always heard.
You don't have to respond to every single thing. In fact, it can be often less productive to reply to specific posts, and instead better to just make your own thread indicating awareness of the concern.

Some game developers have sticky threads of "Frequently Suggested Ideas", where you might include things like druids, housing, and pvp awards, as well as a few general comments as to if they're likely to ever happen.

There's also value to acknowledging common complaints, although you probably shouldn't have them in a formal thread. But it can be useful to periodically jump in with "We are aware there are concerns about Pale Master, and are looking for ways to buff that choice" or "We think Pale Master is adequately useful in situations that most players haven't considered yet".

And of course, there's the matter of a known issues list that is unacceptably out of date. For example, recent developer posts have mentioned that there are currently bugs such as Concealment+Incorporeality, Frost+Icy Burst, and no-UMD CLW/CSW wands that have all been fixed for the next patch. But the known issues (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=150534) thread hasn't heard of those topics. Maybe you should tweak the bug database workflow so that some person checks for publicizable issues on a biweekly basis.

Angelus_dead
03-12-2010, 10:39 PM
Might I suggest something that has proven to be successful in other sites then? How about a "Noted" button on your side that would flag the thread as noted by either a particular person, or at least by SOMEONE at Turbine?
Those work poorly on game dev (and similar) sites, because the customers have trouble believing it's an honest indicator and not someone who clicks it without really reading, or even a bot. To give satisfaction to the users, there needs to be a response that's detailed enough to show a human actually did the reading.

SableShadow
03-12-2010, 10:46 PM
Having them trying to justify their choices to us would be positive in that, either they persuade us that their decision was good or they get to see arguments against their own decision.

I'd be happy with some general outlines of the various roles they see each class in, and a nod toward which of their decisions is meant to enforce which role (i.e. not the gas from the Compendium class descriptions).

Borror0
03-12-2010, 11:11 PM
I'd be happy with some general outlines of the various roles they see each class in, and a nod toward which of their decisions is meant to enforce which role (i.e. not the gas from the Compendium class descriptions).
Me too. However, I doubt that DDO's game designers have actually set design goals for each class. I think their design philosophy is much more liberal.

In other games where classes have fixed design goals, you will see the developer adjusting abilities accordingly to that goal. For example, if LOTRO's main DPS class can tank while in its DPS stance the DPS will get nerfed (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=268427) because it's not meant to be able to don that and, by doing that, it steps on the strengths of another spec. Additionally, if a flaw is perceived in the design goals, the goals will be revised and the game will be changed accordingly to the new revisions. For example, Blizzard's approach to pure classes and hybrid classes evolved overtime as they became more familiar with their game.

When it comes to DDO, the class design is very loose. If you tried to write what each class was about, the difference between most melee classes would be insignificant. The differences between a rogue and a wizard are obvious but the same cannot be said about the differences between a fighter and a barbarian or a ranger and a paladin. In fact, when you dig down, even the difference between a ranger and a fighter aren't that big. While a ranger can use spells, it does not affect the player's gameplay that much.

SableShadow
03-12-2010, 11:50 PM
Me too. However, I doubt that DDO's game designers have actually set design goals for each class. I think their design philosophy is much more liberal.

If by "more liberal" you mean they don't have one, then we agree. :)


In other games where classes have fixed design goals, you will see the developer adjusting abilities accordingly to that goal. For example, if LOTRO's main DPS class can tank while in its DPS stance the DPS will get nerfed (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=268427) because it's not meant to be able to don that and, by doing that, it steps on the strengths of another spec. Additionally, if a flaw is perceived in the design goals, the goals will be revised and the game will be changed accordingly to the new revisions. For example, Blizzard's approach to pure classes and hybrid classes evolved overtime as they became more familiar with their game.

When it comes to DDO, the class design is very loose. If you tried to write what each class was about, the difference between most melee classes would be insignificant. The differences between a rogue and a wizard are obvious but the same cannot be said about the differences between a fighter and a barbarian or a ranger and a paladin. In fact, when you dig down, even the difference between a ranger and a fighter aren't that big. While a ranger can use spells, it does not affect the player's gameplay that much.

Sure. I'm not saying "provide one definition of a class", I'm saying "provide three or four". We have some flavor of that with the PrE (tier I/II/II) + Capstone system we seem to be evolving into...can't really tell until more PrEs and Capstones get off the ground, but so far it's been a really mixed bag...too mixed for me to believe there's an underlying blueprint, but there *could* be one. ;)

You cannot both have a plan and a direction, and not have a plan and a direction. You could use something other than class icons as primary axis, sure...but you can't have *no* axis.

Right now, you could make the case that we're revolving around TP...dunno if that's going to be a good long term strategy, tho.

Borror0
03-13-2010, 01:09 AM
If by "more liberal" you mean they don't have one, then we agree. :)
I wouldn't say that have none, but that's mostly semantic. ;)

Sure. I'm not saying "provide one definition of a class", I'm saying "provide three or four". We have some flavor of that with the PrE (tier I/II/II) + Capstone system we seem to be evolving into...can't really tell until more PrEs and Capstones get off the ground, but so far it's been a really mixed bag...too mixed for me to believe there's an underlying blueprint, but there *could* be one. ;)
We're in agreement.

If there's an underlying blueprint, then either their designers don't have the resources to execute it properly or they don't have sufficient knowledge of the game to execute it successfully. Many recent (or past) additions fall flat to achieving any positive goal.

The Pale Master PrE is a notorious recent example but they are others. The Cheat Death capstone is generally seen as so bad that we just continually make joke about it. Yet, when asked about it on DDOCast, Turbine defends it. Another perhaps less obvious questionable choice was the Knight of the Chalice PrE; while it's currently powerful enough to keep paladin balanced to other classes, once the end game contains no or not enough Evil Outsiders the whole PrE will lose all desirability because DPS against Evil Outsider is all that it offers. It would made more sense to not make the PrE so reliant on the presence of one type of mobs, for future-proofing, but it was not a concern it seems.

When you list all of their past achievements, you can't help but wonder whether they just add stuff to look busy or if they do have goals but just lack the resources or are not talented enough to meet them as many changes don't do anything meaningful.

In fact, any conclusion but one of those three sounds unreasonable.

Right now, you could make the case that we're revolving around TP...dunno if that's going to be a good long term strategy, tho.
Selling the most Turbine Points does seem to be the focus at Turbine right now, and like you i doubt about if that's a sound long term strategy. Short term, it's obviously brilliant as it increases the revenues the moment the changes hit live. However, if left untouched, the grotesque imbalances, inconsistent character progression, funky class design and excessive complexity will take its toll on the playerbase and thus the revenues, eventually.

TechNoFear
03-13-2010, 01:13 AM
Online Customer Representative, my guess is. Basically, Tolero, Tarrant, Patience, Clover, Sapience and Frelorn.

Generally we refer to them as CSOs here but I appear to have forgotten the /jk tag.

I do understand TWAs as they are a big part of my job though generally CRM is SEP.


When you list all of their past achievements, you can't help but wonder whether they just add stuff to look busy or if they do have goals but just lack the resources or are not talented enough to meet them as many changes don't do anything meaningful.

Or the design direction is being manipulated/unfocused by the change to F2P.

That is; some design choices are made based on what will generate more revenue rather than what fits the previous/stated design goals.

Borror0
03-13-2010, 12:49 PM
Or the design direction is being manipulated/unfocused by the change to F2P.

That is; some design choices are made based on what will generate more revenue rather than what fits the previous/stated design goals.
None of the changes I refer to could be defended as "generating more revenues through the DDO Store."

SableShadow
03-13-2010, 10:10 PM
The Cheat Death capstone is generally seen as so bad that we just continually make joke about it. Yet, when asked about it on DDOCast, Turbine defends it.

Srsly? I'm more of a written word kinda person, so didn't catch that.

Lately, the time I've spent playing, learning, and writing on the class seems like it's been a complete and utter waste...much more than the usual waste of time a game is, I mean. :)

Borror0
03-13-2010, 11:16 PM
Srsly? I'm more of a written word kinda person, so didn't catch that.
Yeah, it's in episode 100 (http://ddocast.com/2009/03/28/episode-110.aspx).

They didn't go into a lengthy defense of it but they did say they were happy about it.

Now that you mention this episode, I remember that in the same episode they also answered my question about whether they had specific design goals for each class but the answer was very vague and wishy-washy. I'm not sure if they were worried to cause controversy by talking about classes' strengths and weaknesses or if they simply have not really discussed that topic internally before but the answer is quite unsatisfying. I would have enjoyed them taking a more firm stance.

wrosensteel
03-14-2010, 02:44 PM
I don't know if this has been suggested but since you can upgrade weapons through recipes and motes, why not be able to ad frost or ice guard to upgrade armor? Just a thought. Get lower level players or noobs used to crafting more before they get to the really good stuff.

FlimsyFirewood
03-15-2010, 01:10 PM
Thing to remember is that we have a lot of balls to juggle, and we are usually working 2 or more updates ahead of what's released on live. One update is being tested, another is being built and a third one is being planned.

So when we hear good suggestions on the forum - and despite all the chaff of non-productive complaining - there are some - setting the time aside to implement them usually takes a while. The suggestion itself might not be hard to implement, but a dev's schedule is filled up for a couple months ahead, if not more.

By the time the implementation of a suggestion ends up somewhere where the original poster could see it, or hear about it, or try it out on Lammania, it's been months, and they might have even forgot that they posted about it.

So devs who read good suggestions and discuss them, as we often do, are reluctant to post anything here.

Because such a post becomes a "promise" and then it becomes a subject of complaints for months to come: "but you proooomised! where's my x and y?"

And there's another thing. If the implementation is risky, in other words, it might not work out, have halo effects or something we've never done before, then we may have to hold the feature back an update or two, or pull it altogether due to abuse or lag issues. And nobody wants to fail to deliver something players are looking forward to.

So yeah. We read, but we rarely post, because we take our own words with responsibility. Doesn't mean that you should stop posting them.

And if I may make a suggestion - try to sound constructive. If X is not fun, tell us how you think it should have worked. Hijacking threads or starting multiple topics to spam the same idea over and over is not how to get a dev's attention, trust me. Nobody likes spam. Think about it: when was the last time you got excited about a random medications offer in your email?

While I'm at it, topic titles like 'Attention devs' and 'Turbine please fix' don't work. There's too many and they don't tell us what's inside. Put your issue in the title, and the chances of the topic being read by the dev team go from 0% to "most likely". Just don't expect an immediate reply, for all the reasons I mentioned above. Just because nobody responded, doesn't mean we didn't read it.

Dungeon Runners is a bad example, last I heard they weren't doing so well :(

sephiroth1084
03-15-2010, 01:24 PM
Heh heh, Flimsy is juggling balls. :D

Seriously, though, my personal feeling is that I'd really like to see a dev poke their head into a thread that has generated a lot of interest if only to say, "Hey, this looks like a good/bad/interesting idea. I'm not sure whether we will be able to do anything with this/we are working on this/I'd like to see this too!/We have tried this and it doesn't work/etc..." Something non-committal that won't necessarily get our hopes up or add fuel to the *****ing fire, but will show that you guys are listening and looking and engaging with us.

I know that it's really frustrating for a dev to pop in and say, "Cool," without any other comment, but I find it more frustrating to sit there wondering whether 10 pages of debate has gone entirely unnoticed by the dev team. Or whether suggestion after suggestion have been entirely overlooked.


For instance, a long while ago, I had been discussing the possibility of a ship-to-ship adventure, and a dev chimed in to say that the DDO engine can't handle moving environments like that. While the realization was a little disappointing, it also saved us from debating the issue for weeks on end.

Think about how you feel if you say something to someone and they don't make any acknowledgment that they've heard you: you may feel inclined to repeat yourself, or to nudge them, to see if you were heard and understood. If you continue to not get a response, most people start to get somewhat irritated, whereas if the person does something as simple as nod, merely letting you know that he heard, you'd be at least somewhat eased, possibly still awaiting a greater response, but contented that you have not been speaking/typing in vain.


Thing to remember is that we have a lot of balls to juggle, and we are usually working 2 or more updates ahead of what's released on live. One update is being tested, another is being built and a third one is being planned.

So when we hear good suggestions on the forum - and despite all the chaff of non-productive complaining - there are some - setting the time aside to implement them usually takes a while. The suggestion itself might not be hard to implement, but a dev's schedule is filled up for a couple months ahead, if not more.

By the time the implementation of a suggestion ends up somewhere where the original poster could see it, or hear about it, or try it out on Lammania, it's been months, and they might have even forgot that they posted about it.

So devs who read good suggestions and discuss them, as we often do, are reluctant to post anything here.

Because such a post becomes a "promise" and then it becomes a subject of complaints for months to come: "but you proooomised! where's my x and y?"

And there's another thing. If the implementation is risky, in other words, it might not work out, have halo effects or something we've never done before, then we may have to hold the feature back an update or two, or pull it altogether due to abuse or lag issues. And nobody wants to fail to deliver something players are looking forward to.

So yeah. We read, but we rarely post, because we take our own words with responsibility. Doesn't mean that you should stop posting them.

And if I may make a suggestion - try to sound constructive. If X is not fun, tell us how you think it should have worked. Hijacking threads or starting multiple topics to spam the same idea over and over is not how to get a dev's attention, trust me. Nobody likes spam. Think about it: when was the last time you got excited about a random medications offer in your email?

While I'm at it, topic titles like 'Attention devs' and 'Turbine please fix' don't work. There's too many and they don't tell us what's inside. Put your issue in the title, and the chances of the topic being read by the dev team go from 0% to "most likely". Just don't expect an immediate reply, for all the reasons I mentioned above. Just because nobody responded, doesn't mean we didn't read it.

Dungeon Runners is a bad example, last I heard they weren't doing so well :(

Riggs
03-15-2010, 01:35 PM
Or the design direction is being manipulated/unfocused by the change to F2P.

That is; some design choices are made based on what will generate more revenue rather than what fits the previous/stated design goals.

One item I remember fairly clearly from the producers from when things were changing to ftp.

"We are going to see how popular Drow and Warforged are in the DDO store and that will affect our planning for Half orcs". (paraphrased I dont have the exact quote)

That one statement was very depressing about how the game is being planned...by what will sell in the store rather than a) what was promised, or b) what should be in the game already. (A basic race, and essential to Eberron lore, the Half orc also Druids)

The implication that if Drow do not sell, then Half-orcs would NOT be added as a result is a really poor statement of the game and how it is being planned out.

Riggs
03-15-2010, 01:43 PM
While I'm at it, topic titles like 'Attention devs' and 'Turbine please fix' don't work. There's too many and they don't tell us what's inside. Put your issue in the title, and the chances of the topic being read by the dev team go from 0% to "most likely". Just don't expect an immediate reply, for all the reasons I mentioned above. Just because nobody responded, doesn't mean we didn't read it.

(

Well, to be fair...

For quite some time, when people posted extremely whiney/pointed/negative posts or whatever, and had a title like above - a developer very often did come in and post in the thread. Sometimes it was a moderator, not always.

So even by posting in such negative threads to say "Thats impossible and we dont like your personal attacks" - it sent a message that posting that way DID get attention.

Now maybe it is a lot more common, and has become chaff itself, but that doesnt change the fact that for a while it was a really good way to get someone from Turbine (and often a dev) to read/post in that thread.

So if maybe a bit more time was spent as suggested posting in good threads - even to say - hey this was read, cant promise anything but we saw it, and X is impossible btw". Would go a long way to encouraging people to post contructive things instead, and also cool down flaming debates about things that might seem 'easy', but are maybe impossible for the game engine and therefore are not worth talking about.

eclipsechild
03-15-2010, 01:45 PM
I can attest that some years ago I started a thread called The Wish List: a Tool for Developers in which players posted all their ideas and I would copy and sort them in the first post. I even got a PM of one of them assuring they were following the thread. Some of the ideas I remember being discussed there and later implemented were: an underwater dungeon, wilderness, snow, the obscure dungeon with a torch (Rainbow in the Dark – I will discuss more about that specific one), UI, gameplay mechanics, among many other.
My advice: if you want to be taken seriously, give your idea along with suggestions on how to implement them. For example, back on the days of that thread somebody suggested a dungeon with no light in which players had to use a torch. Another player told his that it would be very difficult to implement, but then I pointed out that I observed a Searing Light travel across a hall and the halo of light followed it. Guess what: Searing Light in the tip of a scepter and you have Rainbow in the Dark. Always use a constructive approach when making suggestions. That thread was lost on a server cleaning, but I can’t more grateful to the players who made those excellent suggestions and the team of developers who listened and worked with them. Actually, I might take another shot at that thread.



Thing to remember is that we have a lot of balls to juggle, and we are usually working 2 or more updates ahead of what's released on live. One update is being tested, another is being built and a third one is being planned.

So when we hear good suggestions on the forum - and despite all the chaff of non-productive complaining - there are some - setting the time aside to implement them usually takes a while. The suggestion itself might not be hard to implement, but a dev's schedule is filled up for a couple months ahead, if not more.

By the time the implementation of a suggestion ends up somewhere where the original poster could see it, or hear about it, or try it out on Lammania, it's been months, and they might have even forgot that they posted about it.

So devs who read good suggestions and discuss them, as we often do, are reluctant to post anything here.

Because such a post becomes a "promise" and then it becomes a subject of complaints for months to come: "but you proooomised! where's my x and y?"

And there's another thing. If the implementation is risky, in other words, it might not work out, have halo effects or something we've never done before, then we may have to hold the feature back an update or two, or pull it altogether due to abuse or lag issues. And nobody wants to fail to deliver something players are looking forward to.

So yeah. We read, but we rarely post, because we take our own words with responsibility. Doesn't mean that you should stop posting them.

And if I may make a suggestion - try to sound constructive. If X is not fun, tell us how you think it should have worked. Hijacking threads or starting multiple topics to spam the same idea over and over is not how to get a dev's attention, trust me. Nobody likes spam. Think about it: when was the last time you got excited about a random medications offer in your email?

While I'm at it, topic titles like 'Attention devs' and 'Turbine please fix' don't work. There's too many and they don't tell us what's inside. Put your issue in the title, and the chances of the topic being read by the dev team go from 0% to "most likely". Just don't expect an immediate reply, for all the reasons I mentioned above. Just because nobody responded, doesn't mean we didn't read it.

Dungeon Runners is a bad example, last I heard they weren't doing so well :(

Angelus_dead
03-15-2010, 02:13 PM
Thing to remember is that we have a lot of balls to juggle, and we are usually working 2 or more updates ahead of what's released on live.
That's the reason why communicating on the web is valuable; to get around the slowness of software releases to show us that you're doing something.


Because such a post becomes a "promise" and then it becomes a subject of complaints for months to come: "but you proooomised! where's my x and y?"
That can be avoided by inserting qualifiers into the text, such as the obvious "no promises". Say ideas are "interesting" or "have possibilitiy" instead of being "good" or "have value". It can also help to type up a single longer disclaimer and then link it from posts, or even from a signature.

Once that is done, any customers who express unwarranted expectations will have the reality explained to them by other users who point out that disclaimer and show what it means.

In addition, a suggestion can warrant a reply even if you think the idea is no good for DDO at all! That way the player knows that reposting it in similar forms won't be helpful (and he gets the satisfaction of seeing a developer take him seriously). When doing that, it helps to soften it by saying the idea "would have trouble working with our mechanics/budget/theme", instead of saying that it's bad overall. (For example, here we see a developer saying no to a player suggestion (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/27/23710231601-whats-wrong-with-an-active-mana-regen-model.html). That can be better than saying nothing)


And if I may make a suggestion - try to sound constructive. If X is not fun, tell us how you think it should have worked.
It is notable that aside from Lamannia forums (which are only sporadically activated), the DDO forums includes no "feedback" section. Where should a player go if he wants to complain that Weapons Shipment is a boring quest or Dreaming Dark lacks loot rewards? To make it fit in Suggestions he'd need to come up with a way to fix it, which is a higher bar than just pointing out the problem.


Hijacking threads or starting multiple topics to spam the same idea over and over is not how to get a dev's attention, trust me.
Look at it from the player's perspective:
According to MadFloyd above, developers are not able to read every thread. Unless there is a developer reply (which hardly ever happens), players have no way to tell if a developer has looked at the thread or not.

Given that the player believes the idea is a good one, what other option does he have than to repeat the suggestion from time to time?

For example: the Bluff skill. A very weak skill, which players do not believe performs the game role it should have. Bluff wasn't even buffed back when the other active-combat uses of charisma skills (Intimidate and Diplomacy) were. How can a player guess if the nonresponse to suggestions regarding Bluff is because
1. The developers haven't happened to see it
2. The developers already have a change coming in a future update
3. The developers don't want it changed


While I'm at it, topic titles like 'Attention devs' and 'Turbine please fix' don't work. There's too many and they don't tell us what's inside. Put your issue in the title, and the chances of the topic being read by the dev team go from 0% to "most likely".
Although I'm a big supporter of thread titles which indicate the thread topics, I must point out that historically on this forum, threads which call out a developer by name have a higher chance of getting a reply.

Coldin
03-15-2010, 02:22 PM
I, for one, never forget my suggestions.

I'm still waiting on...

Shrieking Defenders
Player created Traps
Rogue UMD enhancements
Manyshot changes
Bow RoF changes
Human Weapon enhancements
ect.

Soo...just a few months more on those? :cool: ;)

Edit:



Although I'm a big supporter of thread titles which indicate the thread topics, I must point out that historically on this forum, threads which call out a developer by name have a higher chance of getting a reply.

Just wanted to chime in, that I do think that is mostly true. I usually see more negative toned threads getting responded to than the dozens of positive or neutral threads. I do think there is a hesitation among devs to respond to player ideas. Perhaps the super secret forums see a better dev to player communication, I'm unsure about that. But from the forums I do see, I usually do not see much dev interaction unless it's something new on Lamannia.

Bogenbroom
03-15-2010, 02:32 PM
Thanks for the response Flimsy.

May I suggest that whiny nasty threads be locked with a special little lock that identifies them as "whiny little b****-fests content of which is ignored". :)

Those things annoy the snot out of me!

Schmoe
03-15-2010, 02:40 PM
This has been an interesting discussion so far. I think the fact that we've had response from several Turbine staff is overwhelming proof that they read these forums regularly and take them seriously - so thanks for that. And, as a software developer myself, I completely understand the reluctance to be held to unrealistic expectations, and how easily those expectations can be set at an unrealistic level :)

However, I also agree with sephiroth and Angelus_Dead. While this thread is good for people that have read it, and for the next month or so, what about 6 months from now? What about for all the players that never see this thread? For the long term, some indication a suggestion has been read would go a long way toward making us (the players) feel that our time here on the Suggestions board is not wasted. I'm sure that there is a way to do so that would be non-committal yet at the same time let people know that their thoughts have been heard. I feel pretty strongly that doing so would really help to build goodwill and a sense of community between the players and Turbine.

Angelus_dead
03-15-2010, 02:56 PM
Dungeon Runners is a bad example, last I heard they weren't doing so well :(
For an alternative example, one could look at World of Warcraft, a game that is doing pretty well financially. (Of course, to some extent their massive profitability makes them a worse model, as that income means the luxury of paying more forum staff to sort through things).

But but still, look at these numbers: In the past 5 days I see 19 developer posts (http://blue.mmo-champion.com) on the WOW forum replying to substantive gameplay topics, in addition to some that aren't replies and a lot of assorted chitchat. They include such things as explaining the motivation for systems and even enumerating failures in current designs.

What do we have on the DDO forums in a 15 day time period?

1 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2827108#post2827108) Minutes ago, you pop into a suggestion thread to say that it's already been decided against. Good of you to let the players know that (perhaps you did it because of this thread). There isn't an explanation as to why the suggestion won't be used, although it was talked about long ago when hirelings were new.
2 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2816321#post2816321) Eladrin mentions some game mechanics that are somewhat relevant to the suggestion (although only insofar as they're an option that's not enough to work in that situation). No mention as to developer intentions or their satisfaction with the situation. But again, it's better than nothing and shows that the thread was (partially?) read.
3 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2826952#post2826952) This thread. Not actually game-related, as it's just about forums and developer behavior.
4 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2815523#post2815523) Acknowledging a bug and mentioning fix.
5 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2812787#post2812787) Acknowledging a bug and mentioning fix.
6 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2812843#post2812843) Inquiry as to bug.

Those posts aren't bad, but they don't do much to satisfy players that their time spent typing ideas and feedback isn't being wasted. That is, they show that a developer has seen the thread, but they don't discuss it in any meaningful way. The one about hirelings doesn't say why the developers think its better to keep them out of raids. The one about sneaking doesn't say why the developers had ranged attacks break sneak or if it was intentional to have a stationary lever-guard in Iron Maw.

For comparison, this WOW thread (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/26/23767557794-just-get-rid-of-dodge-and-parry-altogether.html) contains nine developer posts. The developer disagrees with a player ("where you go astray") three times, and agrees with others three times ("That's a good way to sum it up"). There is specific and general information provided. In short, the replies have characteristics of a conversation.

PS. It is notable that WOW devs have the ability to delete player posts that they feel are messing up the thread they'd like to reply to... the player accounts aren't heavily penalized for that. They're just pushed from that one thread.

Borror0
03-15-2010, 03:51 PM
And if I may make a suggestion - try to sound constructive. If X is not fun, tell us how you think it should have worked. Hijacking threads or starting multiple topics to spam the same idea over and over is not how to get a dev's attention, trust me. Nobody likes spam.
Each time I had a conversation with a Turbine employees in PMs, they seemed to remember only the most repeated suggestions and comments but never thorough and more polite posts that tried to make sense of all the chaos - even when those were QFT'd several times in the thread. Often, I had to reexplain something that I had seen been explained several times on the forums before.

If you want to challenge that perception, it would be a good idea to single out particularly good posts while you're reading the forums to make the players feel like being constructive and thorough is actually worthwhile.

Hijacking threads or starting multiple topics to spam the same idea over and over is not how to get a dev's attention, trust me. Nobody likes spam.
It has been over three years that S&B and ranged combat have been ridiculously overpowered. By that I mean that the playerbase reached what is closest to a consensus as possible that those two fighting styles are drastically weaker than TWF, THF and many forms of spellcasting. Yet, nothing resembling a fix has been done yet. A few tiny tweaks left and right, yews, but nothing of the magnitude required to resemble an attempt to restore balance.

If you guys got around to fixing stuff pretty fast, there would be a lesser interest in repeating ourselves. However, when what is seen by all as a major balance issue goes unaddressed for literally years why would we stop repeating suggestions? All it would achieve is leave you with the false impression that we don't care.

Although I'm a big supporter of thread titles which indicate the thread topics, I must point out that historically on this forum, threads which call out a developer by name have a higher chance of getting a reply.

Just wanted to chime in, that I do think that is mostly true. I usually see more negative toned threads getting responded to than the dozens of positive or neutral threads.
Exactly. When there is a response to a player issue, more often the developers seem to pick the larger thread by default. Often, this means the thread with a bad OP and a huge flame war going on rather than the smaller thread that makes good points with a more healthy discussion going on. Perhaps it's intentional from the devs to avoid derailing a good discussion but it sends the message that, the bigger the thread and the angrier you sound, the more likely you are to get a response from Turbine.

Dungeon Runners is a bad example, last I heard they weren't doing so well :(
If by "[aren't] doing so well" you mean "offline since January first 2010" then, yes, they "[aren't] doing so well." ;) It's apparently another case of NCsoft's HQ having poor communication and unwillingness to help one of its American studios. Like we have never seen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto_Assault#Shutdown) that before (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rasa_%28computer_game%29#Closing).

SableShadow
03-15-2010, 04:30 PM
The suggestion itself might not be hard to implement, but a dev's schedule is filled up for a couple months ahead, if not more.

Agreed, people tend to forget that inspiration is only 1%...


So yeah. We read, but we rarely post, because we take our own words with responsibility.

I agree, for all the various points mentioned. Hence, the +1.


Doesn't mean that you should stop posting them.


My comments on "waste of time" have nothing to do with devs posting in threads, and a whole lot to do with changes that have actually made it into the game.

Borror0
03-15-2010, 04:38 PM
My comments on "waste of time" have nothing to do with devs posting in threads, and a whole lot to do with changes that have actually made it into the game.
You should elaborate on that.

SableShadow
03-15-2010, 06:04 PM
You should elaborate on that.

Why, did you miss the "feeling like a complete waste of time" comment? ;)

Borror0
03-15-2010, 06:10 PM
Why, did you miss the "feeling like a complete waste of time" comment? ;)
Did you forget the part where you said it had to do with recent changes and not the forums themselves? ;)

SableShadow
03-15-2010, 06:55 PM
Did you forget the part where you said it had to do with recent changes and not the forums themselves? ;)

Nag, nag, nag... :P

A couple come to mind:

Epic Trap DCs. We debated these on Llama, and I personally found it *awesome* that they took lock, stock, and barrel the recommendations of someone who stopped playing the class years ago over someone who plays it every gd mf'ing day.... ;)

Assassin ToD Set. We pointed out the Enervate was proc'ing on Reds/Purples on Llama, and the damage/to hit weren't stacking. Got a whitewash, and now sometime later, a "fix" to the Enervate, but not the stacking. Win! :D

Bluff. Do I need to say more?

Mechanic PrE. Pages and pages of how to make this PrE useful w/o pumping trap DCs...so we get.../drumroll....trap DCs. :)

Assassin PrE. Useful when introduced, kinda fun...but fairly pointless even when introduced, as banishers/vorpals became cheap at roughly the same time. And are only cheaper now.

Cheap Death. C'mon! Really? A usually-but-not-always self-rez is supposed to encourage people to stay pure rogue? :D

Defensive Roll. As I've said before, over and over again, even making it the equivalent to a non-dispellable Stalwart Pact would make it useful.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've a rant to work on elsewhere. :mad:

Chelsa
03-15-2010, 07:22 PM
Gotta give you guys credit for consistency.

Dev+post=players writing dissertations on said post.:p

sephiroth1084
03-15-2010, 07:23 PM
Gotta give you guys credit for consistency.

Dev=post=players writing dissertations on said post.:p
And yet I have 3 overdue papers for classes. :rolleyes:

Auran82
03-15-2010, 08:58 PM
One item I remember fairly clearly from the producers from when things were changing to ftp.

"We are going to see how popular Drow and Warforged are in the DDO store and that will affect our planning for Half orcs". (paraphrased I dont have the exact quote)

That one statement was very depressing about how the game is being planned...by what will sell in the store rather than a) what was promised, or b) what should be in the game already. (A basic race, and essential to Eberron lore, the Half orc also Druids)

The implication that if Drow do not sell, then Half-orcs would NOT be added as a result is a really poor statement of the game and how it is being planned out.

Colour me crazy, but could this kind of thinking be why we have not seen a new raid since September (and before, that, the september or so before)?

They release 'MOD 9' along with the Amrath pack, pack doesnt sell so well because the raid isn't really pugged that often (and the quests are actually challenging, heaven forbid) and with the boot change, I would guess it would be run even less.

Someone up high points at sales of that content pack compared with Inspired quarter/dreaming dark so the decision is to make more short quests with low xp (due to length) with some kind of named items and pretend raids dont exist? As far as I am aware, the next update has a low/mid level chain involving pirates (from what accidently ended up on Lama)

State of the game address anyone? Hello?

sephiroth1084
03-16-2010, 01:03 AM
Colour me crazy, but could this kind of thinking be why we have not seen a new raid since September (and before, that, the september or so before)?

They release 'MOD 9' along with the Amrath pack, pack doesnt sell so well because the raid isn't really pugged that often (and the quests are actually challenging, heaven forbid) and with the boot change, I would guess it would be run even less.

Someone up high points at sales of that content pack compared with Inspired quarter/dreaming dark so the decision is to make more short quests with low xp (due to length) with some kind of named items and pretend raids dont exist? As far as I am aware, the next update has a low/mid level chain involving pirates (from what accidently ended up on Lama)

State of the game address anyone? Hello?
If their game decisions were motivated by sales, wouldn't it have made sense for the devs to make getting into, and completing, ToD easier, not harder?

Although, the design of the last couple of content sets seems to support a trend away from difficult, complex (interesting) content, disappointingly. Well, in terms of new quests anyway; epics are clearly aimed at players looking for a challenge...well, the desert ones anyway.

Auran82
03-16-2010, 02:26 AM
If their game decisions were motivated by sales, wouldn't it have made sense for the devs to make getting into, and completing, ToD easier, not harder?

In some ways it would make sense.

However, since EU we have had:
Release:
ToD Raid and associated quests, pretty much the last real challenging pack we have seen, though this would most likely have been finished for 6 - 9 months or more, and would probably have been designed under the pre-EU model.

Update 1:
Path of inspiration, set of easy, quick quests worth a low amount of xp, last quest has a number of relatively interesting items, with a grind mechanic required to access the final chest, items promise 'suppressed power'

Epic DQ2, first attempt at epic, interesting idea regarding the upgrading of items, but (IMO) there are simply too many items and too many of them are just not even worth bothering with, highly dislike the scroll mechanic introduced (first to grab it gets it, no actual notification that the person actually picked up the item, would have been a great chance to implement a need/greed roll box like many other MMOs have) Epic quests are quite difficult and challenge the top level players, it is still dissapointing to slog your way through an OOB and get no shards at all in the end chest though.

Update 2:
Dreaming dark, continuation of the path of inspiration and once again a handful of really short easy quests, suppressed powers released and are (IMO) mostly not worthwhile. (100,000 non wf battle wizards cried in pain when the titan gloves were upgraded)

Update 3:
Handful of free high level quests, which were once again quite short, from what I heard the DQ one was quite hard on elite initially, but was toned down hugely.

Epic Vons, compared to the epic desert quests, these are not even in the same league, I guess people found the desert ones too hard so we got these? Epic items were many many times better than the desert ones, though a smaller sample would have helped.

Its looking more and more to me like they are trying to shy away from 'hard' quests and make things easier all around which is just odd to me, especially if they want to sell more store items.

sephiroth1084
03-16-2010, 11:07 AM
Stuff like this:
Like I said in my last post, it's been a pretty prominent thread. It's very possible the devs could be reading it, but not commenting for one reason or another. Which is kind of frustrating. (from this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=236478)) is why we get so frustrated with the devs. We have a 29 page thread discussing a game mechanic, with little consensus, which a dev could probably clear up quickly, but which has had no official comment, even to say, "We need to examine this, because it is supposed to function in X manner."

It's just incredibly frustrating.