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View Full Version : Favored Soul Favored souls and Evasion. Not sold at all. In fact ur gimping urself.



Nick_RC
03-09-2010, 11:42 AM
I see nearly all the builds apart from wf and the evoker having evasion. There seems to be such an emphasis on it. I think it's smart on a cleric but am absolutely baffled as to why fvs are gimping themselves by taking monk?.

Il be the first one to admit I'm biased on evasion in general. If ur a monk rgr or rog it's ur class. If you need the feats, yeah maybe. But evasion for evasions sake is just a crutch and breeds bad play.

Why!!????!!! Why would u give up on so many benefits for such little gain?? U got at least 40 point resists and a (with a little work) great reflex save even with dex as a dump stat. Read: u really arnt taking much elemental damage!! Enemy BB hurt but that's what break ench is for!

Yeah I understand you get nice bonuses for feats as well... But on a fvs u lose too much. But seriously u can do a good 2wf build without splashing the monk.



IMO u Lose waaaaaayyyy to much by splashing.

1.a 2 level 9 spells!! There are 4 really good spells at that level.
1.b 1 level 8 spell. Pretty major when u consider a) and there are three great spells at that lvl - deathpact, holy, aura cure crit mass.
2. 10 DR. Stoneskin clickies don't compare. They might on paper but in play 150 is stripped so fast.
3. 2 Spell pen.
4. Spellpoints, bonus cha from capstone and skills boost. Extra intim on a fvs is always nice.
5. Daily spell. I think they are all pretty junk 2bh but hey some people like em.

It's too much. Work on ur reflex save, learn to dodge duck dive and dodge and enjoy the benefits of a lvl 20 fvs.

Special note for impact - not bagging on u or ur build. You actually weigh the pros and cons and make a choice. I respect that. I just don't agree:D . I get tired of the mindless idiots that insist on evasion.

N

Edit: added b).

Aspenor
03-09-2010, 11:56 AM
I'm going to have to agree on the FvS front. 10 DR itself is just plain sick. Two 9th level spells is a big deal.

Evasion and WIS to AC is nice, but I'd rather have that 10 DR and the spells.

Mellkor
03-09-2010, 12:18 PM
its really 13 dr on a WF. the +3 to DR from enhancements is really a no-brainer. So I would ask trade 13 DR for evasion? I would NOT make that trade on A WF FvS. 13 DR/37 blocking DR is just that good. I like evasion on a cleric as well, but no way on a FvS! Agree with ya on this one, Nick. :P

-JR

Wyrmnax
03-09-2010, 12:22 PM
I think it depends more on how you play that specific character.

If you are going melee, then evasion and extra AC are much better than the spells.

If you are a full caster, loosing caster levels is unthinkable when you can get spells that good at 9th circle.

Mellkor
03-09-2010, 12:32 PM
how does evasion help you with melee?

Nick_RC
03-09-2010, 12:39 PM
I think it depends more on how you play that specific character.

If you are going melee, then evasion and extra AC are much better than the spells.

If you are a full caster, loosing caster levels is unthinkable when you can get spells that good at 9th circle.

No. 10 dr is better than evasion in melée. AC is junk. 2 gear/slot intensive and is useless endgame elite and epic.

I get what ur saying it's just ur wrong. Nothing personal heh.

N

Nick_RC
03-09-2010, 12:43 PM
its really 13 dr on a WF. the +3 to DR from enhancements is really a no-brainer. So I would ask trade 13 DR for evasion? I would NOT make that trade on A WF FvS. 13 DR/37 blocking DR is just that good. I like evasion on a cleric as well, but no way on a FvS! Agree with ya on this one, Nick. :P

-JR

Learn to read cully! I said apart from wf and evoker ;) wf is just criminal to splash as u arnt tight for feats as the 2hf line is junk for a fvs.

Aspenor
03-09-2010, 12:47 PM
WIS to AC at current end-game is useless unless you can get 95+ armor class, and a typical FvS build can't, and even then it requires endless hours of grinding for a particular gear setup.

Evasion is a moot point when you can just use elemental resists and protections and rely on the FvS's high save progression. A decent FvS will have good reflexes anyway and take minimal reflex-targetting damage. With just a little investment in time or money you can reduce it even further with fire/cold shield clickies.

Then it comes to two feats...even for a melee FvS you're not really short. Depending on your fighting style:
TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Maximize, Heighten/Toughness, Extend/Empower, Improved Critical
THF, ITHF, GTHF, Maximize, Heighten/Toughness, Extend/Empower, Improved Critical, of course THF feats aren't needed and you can follow the caster progression instead...

or casting:
Maximize, Empower, Extend, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Heighten, [Whatever]

Delt
03-09-2010, 12:53 PM
how does evasion help you with melee?

Because you are in the thick of things more often, making save checks. I would assume that's his point at least.

As for the original points, they aren't all that meaningful. 4 "really good" level 9 spells? Hardly. Two good spells to choose between and it all depends on your build+the content you run. Stoneskin = specific typed DR. 2 spell pen is meaningless if you aren't offensive casting beyond BB. The spellpoints I'll give you but the +2CHA? lol. The clickie CLW or SL you actually put down is probably the biggest loss.

It remains a choice and a pretty balanced trade off. Extra feats+AC+Evasion.

If I was building a straight casting FVS, I wouldn't bother. If I wanted to melee as well, I probably would.

HGM-Chi
03-09-2010, 12:55 PM
A guildie and myself were just comparing our FvS on this basis exactly. Mine is an elven 2wf dex/wis finesse build 2Mkn/8FvS. It has been an amazing blast to play up to this point, but I was starting to wonder if she would hit a wall around level 13 or so that would see all the benefits of what she got out of monk turn useless. I guess I'll see in a few levels, eh...

But just to hold up my decision a little, at these levels she is amazing... the attack speed and AC she has wails, and combined with a Divine Power on her she hits pretty much all the time. When my buddy and I dropped into the pit together it was about a 15 second fight, in favour of the monk splash. Yeah, 4 levels is a huge difference at low levels, and the monk is particularly going to shine then, but it shows the kinda fun I'm having playing her right now. That being said... got a link to a pure elven FvS build I can LR to when I hit the wall? ;)

Aspenor
03-09-2010, 12:56 PM
Stoneskin > specific typed DR

Stoneskin IS a specific typed DR, adamantine, and no monsters have silver or cold iron weapons. Granted, few monsters have adamantine weapons, but stoneskin is definitely not better than an FvS DR.

Impatiens
03-09-2010, 01:06 PM
Evasion has saved my life so many times on my FVS. It is totally worth it. Would I like to have more than one 6th level spell? Sure, but it really hasn't been a big deal. I do agree that more healing and caster based FVS are better off staying pure, but evasion and extra feats are extremely useful for a melee based FVS. I think the only melee FVS that benefits from staying pure is a WF. The Wis to AC is nice too, though not amazing. It is much better early on in leveling than at end game, but things that help you level up with more ease should not be discounted.

I disagree with whomever said melee FVS are not short on feats. Your example includes neither Quicken nor Power Attack. Power Attack can be taken as a Monk Feat and TWF or Toughness could be taken for the other, leaving another regular feat open for Quicken.

In short, monk splash is awesome for Evasion and Extra Feats. As a melee FVS you aren't really gimping yourself by losing out on some of the things that level 20 gives. Yes, level 20 FVSs do have a lot going for them and I would definitely encourage people wanting to be caster based to stay pure, but for melee there is no question in my mind that monk splash benefits outweigh the negatives.

Aspenor
03-09-2010, 01:10 PM
I disagree with whomever said melee FVS are not short on feats. Your example includes neither Quicken nor Power Attack. Power Attack can be taken as a Monk Feat and TWF or Toughness could be taken for the other, leaving another regular feat open for Quicken.


Eh, drop either Heighten/Toughness or Extend/Empower and take both if you want. An FvS with Quicken isn't exceedingly concerned about their max HP anyway, with healing at-will.

Delt
03-09-2010, 01:11 PM
Stoneskin IS a specific typed DR, except that no monsters have silver or cold iron weapons. Granted, few monsters have adamantine weapons, but stoneskin is definitely not better than an FvS DR.

Is there anything that bypasses the admantine? Besides maybe a golem?

Aspenor
03-09-2010, 01:15 PM
Is there anything that has admantine? Besides maybe a golem?

The Stormreaver...and that's about it.

The difference is that you don't have to refresh an FvS DR, it's always there. 150 points of stoneskin goes away fairly quickly on elite.

Impatiens
03-09-2010, 01:20 PM
Eh, drop either Heighten/Toughness or Extend/Empower and take both if you want. An FvS with Quicken isn't exceedingly concerned about their max HP anyway, with healing at-will.

Healing at will doesn't mean there is no concern with HP. Toughness opens up the ability to get so many hit points on a FVS with both racial and class toughness enhancements. As a melee you are going to get hit more often than a caster. Toughness is important for that and Quicken is important so that you can still cast when you are being hit and so you can Blade Barrier and use Mass Heal without taking forever to cast it. Dropping Extend/Empower would be an option, yes, but even so the melee FVS is still pretty feat starved.

Aspenor
03-09-2010, 01:22 PM
Healing at will doesn't mean there is no concern with HP. Toughness opens up the ability to get so many hit points on a FVS with both racial and class toughness enhancements. As a melee you are going to get hit more often than a caster. Toughness is important for that and Quicken is important so that you can still cast when you are being hit and so you can Blade Barrier and use Mass Heal without taking forever to cast it. Dropping Extend/Empower would be an option, yes, but even so the melee FVS is still pretty feat starved.

Mineral II and drop IC if you're really HP concerned. There are always ways around feat problems.

Impatiens
03-09-2010, 01:24 PM
Mineral II and drop IC if you're really HP concerned. There are always ways around feat problems.

I have OTWF instead of Imp Crit which I am contemplating dropping for Empower so I can have both Empower and Maximize. No matter how you look at it there are more desirable feats than slots to fit them in, having monk helps a lot with that in addition to giving other benefits as well. Even if I didn't get the extra feats from monk, I'd probably still splash it for evasion.

Aspenor
03-09-2010, 01:28 PM
I have OTWF instead of Imp Crit which I am contemplating dropping for Empower so I can have both Empower and Maximize. No matter how you look at it there are more desirable feats than slots to fit them in, having monk helps a lot with that in addition to giving other benefits as well. Even if I didn't get the extra feats from monk, I'd probably still splash it for evasion.

Personally I'm not a fan of empower unless you're an arcane. It is mathematically inefficient, and does not give much of a damage gain for the cost. Even an arcane should only use it when spell points are of no concern.

Impatiens
03-09-2010, 01:30 PM
Personally I'm not a fan of empower unless you're an arcane. It is mathematically inefficient, and does not give much of a damage gain for the cost. Even an arcane should only use it when spell points are of no concern.

I'd really only be taking it so I could Max/Emp blade barriers, which is why I haven't taken it yet ;)

Calebro
03-09-2010, 01:31 PM
There are arguments Pro and Con.
I understand both of those arguments. Heck, I even agree with both of them (depending on character concept).
The bottom line is that this is and will be a matter of preference.

Me, I'm an evasion hoar.

*didn't think that would be filtered.

Nick_RC
03-09-2010, 01:33 PM
As for the original points, they aren't all that meaningful. 4 "really good" level 9 spells? yeah. Implosion, energy drain, mass heal and true res. Str based u got mass heal,true res and energy drain. Ur not using ur tools to their best if u don't pop an energy drain on any applicable mob. There's no save and is a hellova a debuff for a few sp and more importantly will speed the killing time significantly. Wis based it's obvious.

Hardly. Two good spells to choose between and it all depends on your build+the content you run. yeah ur right I should have specifically said end game. I assumed talking about the last two levels and FVS dr should have hinted at endgame. As for content it don't matter at all. U might get some benefits from ac on certain endgame quests...but those quests are to easy it doesn't matter. U steamroller it either way.

Stoneskin > specific typed DR. wrong. In no way is it comparable if not better. Clickies run out especially when taking alot of damage. and it's those situations that the ss runs out that u will likely not have the time to refresh it.

2 spell pen is meaningless if you aren't offensive casting beyond BB. see note on energy drain but yeah not a major point. More directed at the wis based battlclerics that fight and cast.The spellpoints I'll give you but the +2CHA? lol. il be laughing when they start nailing us with disjunction. Seeing as u need at least a 19 Cha on a fvs you really may as well maximize ur options by taking intim and umd(combine with the dr, ease of full BAB, conc ops and tourque) it's criminal not too take it. So it's not massive but is actually nice. Nothing to lol about anyway :)The clickie CLW or SL you actually put down is probably the biggest loss.

It remains a choice and a pretty balanced trade off. Extra feats+AC+Evasion.

If I was building a straight casting FVS, I wouldn't bother. If I wanted to melee as well, I probably would.

comments In red

Delt
03-09-2010, 01:35 PM
The Stormreaver...and that's about it.

The difference is that you don't have to refresh an FvS DR, it's always there. 150 points of stoneskin goes away fairly quickly on elite.

It goes away quick, if you are taking all the aggro. But then again, if you are facing casters too with all the aggro, the evasion is paying off.

No point in arguing theory here. It's a fair trade off.

Nick_RC
03-09-2010, 01:42 PM
It goes away quick, if you are taking all the aggro. But then again, if you are facing casters too with all the aggro, the evasion is paying off.

No point in arguing theory here. It's a fair trade off.

Ah I think this is the crux of it. U don't miss evasion with 40 resists, a good reflex save self healing and access to fire/cold shield clickies and scrolls.

U can make up for not having evasion but in the thick of it there's no substitute for that static DR.

JayDubya
03-09-2010, 01:47 PM
I have one of the aformentioned Flonks, and I am quite happy with it. No, scratch that, it's my favorite build of all time.

However, I happen to have a cleric I'm going to TR - it would be interesting to make him a pure FvS and see how the two compare.

Impatiens
03-09-2010, 01:51 PM
Ah I think this is the crux of it. U don't miss evasion with 40 resists, a good reflex save self healing and access to fire/cold shield clickies and scrolls.

U can make up for not having evasion but in the thick of it there's no substitute for that static DR.

Having 40 resists in no way makes up for evasion and evasion FVS are not giving up the 40 resists anyway. Good reflex save is half the reason to have evasion because it makes it actually useful. I have noticed taking, for example, 140 electric damage when I don't make a save on the last boss in epic OOB. Now if you want to constantly mass prot yourself so that your resist plus that would absorb all the damage, you could, but I'd rather save my spell points for more important things and just not take any damage at all when I evade the spell 90% of the time. There is no making up for not having evasion in my mind. Nothing else comes close. Just like stone skin doesn't really make up for the static DR. Me, I'd rather have evasion than the static DR though.

Nick_RC
03-09-2010, 01:55 PM
Great there's actually good debate happening now. U just don't get it without calling something gimped :D

Delt
03-09-2010, 01:58 PM
yeah. Implosion, energy drain, mass heal and true res. Str based u got mass heal,true res and energy drain. Of those four, like I said, only two matter - mass heal and ED. And neither are clutch but instead depend on what you want to do. MH is probably more utility but if you are just soloing stuff, ED is the way to go.

Ur not using ur tools to their best if u don't pop an energy drain on any applicable mob. There's no save and is a hellova a debuff for a few sp and more importantly will speed the killing time significantly. Wis based it's obvious. Again, depends what you are facing. Anything subject to an ED is easily handled in other ways too. Maybe you ought to define what mob is "applicable" -- and if it's every piece of trash, well more power to ya. Blow all your sp on it. Not needed though.

yeah ur right I should have specifically said end game. I assumed talking about the last two levels and FVS dr should have hinted at endgame. I wasn't confused about "end game". The key is whether you are doing epic content/raids/pvp/quests and whether you are doing it solo or grouped. As for content it don't matter at all. U might get some benefits from ac on certain endgame quests...but those quests are to easy it doesn't matter. U steamroller it either way.

In no way is it comparable if not better. Clickies run out especially when taking alot of damage. and it's those situations that the ss runs out that u will likely not have the time to refresh it. See my comments to Aspenor.

see note on energy drain but yeah not a major point. More directed at the wis based battlclerics that fight and cast. il be laughing when they start nailing us with disjunction. Seeing as u need at least a 19 Cha on a fvs you really may as well maximize ur options by taking intim and umd(combine with the dr, ease of full BAB, conc ops and tourque) it's criminal not too take it. So it's not massive but is actually nice. Nothing to lol about anyway I don't deal with whatifs. When devs add that, then we can revisit alot of things, including how valuable DR is, since maybe we will see typed damage too.

Comments in red. Because that's the annoying way to reply :D

Impatiens
03-09-2010, 02:02 PM
Comments in red. Because that's the annoying way to reply :D

That's why I do mine in green. It just looks less angry ;)

Aspenor
03-09-2010, 02:13 PM
Great there's actually good debate happening now. U just don't get it without calling something gimped :D

Reroll gimp.

Talon_Moonshadow
03-09-2010, 02:35 PM
I'm very close to TRing my Clr as a FVS, and strongly considering the evasion option.

I love Evasion.
I am convinced Evasion is the best feat in the game.

I just did SoS for the first time with my Clr (attempted actually)

The Fire/Lava area was are party's doom.
With Prot on, I could withstand one fireball (and this was normal)
Second Fireball killed me. (could have been a third)
Raised.....one fireball death. Over and over again. Other party members were similar.

I really wished I had evasion in there.

Most of my other chars have it, and I love it. But of course a Clr has a horrible Ref save. SO maybe a Fvs would've done better.

Anyway, I really need to understand what I lose by /Mnk2.

One other factor to consider is that few people spend any significant time @ lvl 20.
They TR almost immediately. Which I may do as well. (I won't be sending any time as a Clr20 for instance)

So it seems to me that I would get more from /Mnk2.

But I'm open for suggestions.

clanqui
03-09-2010, 02:41 PM
As far as 9th level spells, I wouldn't give up true res for any of the others. It's just too important to bring somebody all the way back with one spell instead of 2. Energy drain is critical for a caster, but not necesary for a non wis based char. Implosion is extremely cool, but not actually important because of the cooldown, and mass heal is meh because of potency and max/empower limitations.

AylinIsAwesome
03-09-2010, 03:29 PM
That's why I do mine in green. It just looks less angry ;)


Also because you're Bringing Broccoli Back! :p

maddmatt70
03-09-2010, 03:35 PM
Evasion maybe overrated but what is not is the two feats which increase the build's dps. 10 dr is not a big deal for a self healer. If I were into melee oriented fvs or clerics I would also choose twf 18 FVS 2 fighter or even 18 FVS 1 Fighter 1 Barbarian over the 20 FVS except for perhaps the thf wf.

Impaqt
03-09-2010, 03:50 PM
Both Builds can be effective. I run both actually. I have an evasive FvS and a Pure.

THe problem with Going Melee Focus without the 2 Monk levels comes down to Feats. I have not found a 7 feat build that really does what I want to do both in Melee and casting. 2 Monk provides 2 more feats and Evasion.

The DR is very nice, the Spell Like ability is cool. but neither are critical.

yes, you can avoid lots of evasion checks with your keyboard and mouse.

But you can also make up for lack of DR with smart play. +2 CHR means very little.. 30ish Spell points.. You mentioned Intim.. But without a Splash, Intim isnt even a Class skill so your not going to be realy good there either....

I see pros and cons to both directions to go. Clerics are where I dont see the real benefit to the Monk Splash..
Poor Reflex save, Poor Spell point pool, more feat starved..... so even with the monk splash you're still not as effective in combat.

Nick_RC
03-09-2010, 06:13 PM
Can't believe I forgot about that level 8 spell slot you lose also. Cure crit, deathpact and holy aura are just all too good. From a healing standpoint u lose quite a bit as well. Id like to see the splash spell set up others use and examine just how much the loss of spell slots affect a build overall.

Edit: reworded last sentence -wasn't what I intended to say. Cheers Impact

Impaqt
03-09-2010, 06:22 PM
Can't believe I forgot about that level 8 spell slot you lose also. Cure crit, deathpact and holy aura are just all too good. From a healing standpoint u lose quite a bit as well. If u don't agree with me let me knw what ur spell set up is and we might examine it further.

Its not a case of Agreeing or Not agreeing nick.

They are different builds with different goals.

twix
03-09-2010, 06:51 PM
The only time ive missed evasion is in the pvp pit.In quests my cleric and fvs are very survivable without evasion.Alittle twitch game play and a lot of spells will miss you anyways.Not to mention protections and resists can soak up a lot of damage.

Im sure you remember stoneheal nick.That little gimp doesnt even break 300 hp.Actually he doesnt even come close :P. Even with gimpy hp and no evasion he hardly dies.Not saying that the loss in hp doesnt hurt because it does but if i can survive almost anything with the little amount of hp i do have i just couldnt justify having evasion.

Either way he'll be a pure fvs hopefully in a month or two.Then the hp will be doubled plus ill have dr 10 not to mention the 10 pt. resists you can choose as you lvl.I just cant forsee any reason to waste two levels on evasion.And with the wings a fvs gets you should be able to boogie away from just about any spell thrown at ya if your paying attention to enemy casting animations.

Nick_RC
03-09-2010, 06:53 PM
Both Builds can be effective. I run both actually. I have an evasive FvS and a Pure.

THe problem with Going Melee Focus without the 2 Monk levels comes down to Feats. I have not found a 7 feat build that really does what I want to do both in Melee and casting. 2 Monk provides 2 more feats and Evasion. honestly there's only one option for 2wf and pure-just posted the bones of it today. It's tough for sure.

The DR is very nice, the Spell Like ability is cool. but neither are critical. for me it's the spell slot issue that gets me the most. 2 lvl 9 and an 8. Ur giving up something somewhere. Looking at ur build u have implosion, deathpact and holy aura. I'd feel uncomfortable being a combination melée/caster without energy drain. Also ur high level healing is missing some love. Amrath clickies make mass crit way too attractive. No mass heal either. So u have cure serious mass and either mod or light mass to toggle with it. The groups I run with have alot of powerful wf melée. I feel uncomfortable having mod or light as my secondary mass. ( I prefer posting strong statements I.e 'ur gimping urself' as it gets better discusion.) I have no doubt you play that toon very effectivly.

But you can also make up for lack of DR with smart play. +2 CHR means very little.. 30ish Spell points.. You mentioned Intim.. But without a Splash, Intim isnt even a Class skill so your not going to be realy good there either....

it's trash mob intim. It's not meant for raid bosses but for everything else. I can't tell u how wonderful peeling the agro off the squishy pugs is. Having played with it all the way up I can swear that it has saved me so many spell points. It helps me control the flow of the game so much better In regular questing.It won't ever be high like a specific intimitank (which I have real probs with) but it's def high enough for trash.

11 skill points
6 shroud
2 capstone
2 luck
8 Cha
15 item
4 gh

48 ATM. add a bard for 50. Which is a good trash mob value.(for me il be going completionist so that's another 3) possibly eek out another point or two from cha.




I see pros and cons to both directions to go. Clerics are where I dont see the real benefit to the Monk Splash..comes down to spell slots. I couldn't do what I wanted with evasion on a fvs. Cleric I could. You can pump that ref save to meaningful levels on a cleric- I think u had a build a wholes back that managed it.
Poor Reflex save, Poor Spell point pool, more feat starved..... so even with the monk splash you're still not as effective in combat.

comments above bro.

ghale
03-09-2010, 08:26 PM
I see nearly all the builds apart from wf and the evoker having evasion. There seems to be such an emphasis on it. I think it's smart on a cleric but am absolutely baffled as to why fvs are gimping themselves by taking monk?.

Il be the first one to admit I'm biased on evasion in general. If ur a monk rgr or rog it's ur class. If u need the feats yeah maybe. But evasion for evasions sake is just a crutch and breeds bad play.

Why!!????!!! Why would u give up on so many benefits for such little gain?? U got at least 40 point resists and a (with a little work) great reflex save even with dex as a dump stat. Read: u really arnt taking much elemental damage!! Enemy BB hurt but that's what break ench is for!

Yeah I understand you get nice bonuses for feats as well... But on a fvs u lose too much. But seriously u can do a great 2wf build without splashing the monk.



IMO u Lose waaaaaayyyy to much by splashing.

1. 2 level 9 spells!! There are 4 really good spells at that level.
2. 10 DR. Stoneskin clickies don't compare. They might on paper but in play 150 is stripped so fast.
3. 2 Spell pen.
4. Spellpoints, bonus cha from capstone and skills boost. Extra intim on a fvs is always nice.
5. Daily spell. I think they are all pretty junk 2bh but hey some people like em.

It's too much. Work on ur reflex save, learn to dodge duck dive and dodge and enjoy the benefits of a lvl 20 fvs.

Special note for impact - not bagging on u or ur build. You actually weigh the pros and cons and make a choice. I respect that. I just don't agree:D . I get tired of the mindless idiots that insist on evasion.

Evasion is nice while you're leveling and not fully geared out yet but yeah at level 20, buy a +3 heart and go pure as evasion isn't needed anymore! :).

muffinlad
03-09-2010, 09:16 PM
Personally I'm not a fan of empower unless you're an arcane. It is mathematically inefficient, and does not give much of a damage gain for the cost. Even an arcane should only use it when spell points are of no concern.

Actually....FvS have the ability to significantly reduce the cost of Empower, and if you add a ring of Thellis (Raid Item, but I have one for all 4 of my FvS) you start taking 8 or so off the cost. That puts it back in contention math-wise.

All of my FvS have empower, even if due to build I am tight on Feats.

muffinpowerers

Impatiens
03-09-2010, 09:31 PM
Can't believe I forgot about that level 8 spell slot you lose also. Cure crit, deathpact and holy aura are just all too good. From a healing standpoint u lose quite a bit as well. If u don't agree with me let me knw what ur spell set up is and we might examine it further.

I won't deny that sometimes I wish I had more spell slots on my monk splash build. I actually have Deathward Mass and Deathpact as my two 8th level spells. I don't feel the need for Cure Crit Mass, but Holy Aura would be nice to have. Maybe I should consider picking that up and going back to single target Deathward for those rare occasions that I need DW and there isn't another person in the raid who has it. I find that Maximized CLW Mass and CMW Mass along with Mass Heal is usually more than enough for group healing and generally I just rotate between Heal and Heal scrolls for hard hitting single target healing like Horoth.

I think the only spell I really regret not being able to have is Energy Drain since I had to choose between that and Mass Heal.

Nevthial
03-09-2010, 09:32 PM
I play a Cleric with evasion.
I'm a fan of multi-classing.
However, were I to ever play an FvS, or a Sorc for that matter, I would really want to go straight class. With decent hit points ( 425+ on FvS), the DR and resistances can make up for not having evasion on 80+% of in game situations. Favoured Souls are really designed to be straight classed.

Chai
03-11-2010, 02:06 PM
Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons, the game where 10 people can roll up the same class and have 10 distinctly different characters. Its hard to slap the "this will automatically suck" tag on builds based on class combination alone.

I am not a big fan of 18-2 FvS MnK myself, but thats why I didnt roll one up.

I used to be one of those people who would go out of their way to get evasion on toons it would be even moderately useful on, but no longer. I would rather have the higher hp or better selection of spells staying pure will offer. Pure fighter ftw. 18 barb 2 fighter etc...19 FvS 1 fighter. If the play on that sux or you want the capstone, its just 1 LR to respec it to pure.

Twerpp
03-11-2010, 02:22 PM
FvS

full advancement in all saves plus tons of self buffs that raise saves
40 point resists
insta cast mass pro for 120 dr vs all elements
insta cast full heals in some cases free CLW worth about a heal scroll. Tons of sp to spare anyway if you went another capstone
toughness enhancements so generally more HP than a cleric
wings to actively avoid AoE, you always have an advantageous position on the map
10-15 dr adds up to a lot of damage avoided throughout the course of a quest, possibly as much or more than evasion would avoid in many quests.


I just dont see the need for evasion on these guys never have.

Matuse
03-12-2010, 02:50 AM
Try playing in epic ADQ, where the efreeti and fire reavers throw 170 point delayed blast fireballs at you. That's 170 points with a successful save, and through 40 points of resistance.

Dark-Star
03-12-2010, 04:26 AM
In the spirit of debate:

Throw on a blood rage symbiant and the DR delta is 5.

Five damage off of a hit is nice, but for a skilled player it will very very rarely mean the difference between dying and living. So if we are not talking about the difference between living and dying, then we are talking mana efficiancy. If you are a melee build with a torc and con-op, mana is virtually limitless. If you are a caster build, you should not be taking much physical damage anyway, and for you the 5 extra DR is of minimal impact.

Evasion end game different story. ADQ1 has been mentioned and there are other examples in the epic quests. All of the things mentioned to reduce elemental damage like absorption, prots and shields, can also be utilized by someone with evasion for that 5% chance of rolling a 1. But how about non-elemental damage? ToD elite traps in part one, without evasion you have very little chance of survival if you get thrown wrong and hit several traps at once. Five DR means squat. DQ2 epic, evasion let's you take far less damage than 5 dr will, especially on a healer. If one is unlucky or unskillful, a knock down followed by blades can mean death.

MCCW is nice but not essential. Mass Heal, same and its slow cast time makes it situational. Quickened MCMW + MCSW + MCLW (if you really want to take all three) is all you need 99.9% of the time when things turn south suddenly.

Implosion and Energy Drain, both nice, but in epic content only one is useful.

Two more spell pene? Can be made up by the two extra feats you get if spell pene is that important. All things being equal, your BB will have a higher DC in water stance than a pure FvS, and he has two more feats he can throw towards evocation focus if the feats listed for the gtwf pure are good enough.

Saves are higher.

You can use greater bane handwraps with double bursting ToD rings for the mobs that take more damage that way. Leveling up you vorpal 2.5% faster.

Wisdom to AC for anything pre-epic can be very useful on a correctly built 18/2. Mid 80's raid buffed is very doable if you have the gear.

I conceed, Nick, that you can do quests without evasion that others with evasion flounder on; but for the vast majority of people who are not as good as you are (and yes he's that good), splashing two monk will be the superior choice.

After having played a pure to cap and having an 18/2 one level from cap, the only two pure builds I would consider worth while would be WF str based melee or halfling dragon marked heal bot.

Mellkor
03-12-2010, 07:09 AM
For me it boils down to the number of spell slots. The number of high level spells (or lack of) is what tips the balance to going pure FvS over splashing for me. It is hard for me to live with so few high level spell slots on a splashed FvS. I like cleric for /monk splash for this reason. The small hit to reflex a cleric splash gets compared to pure FvS can be made up for easily enough with equipment/feats/monk stance.

-JR

Kyrn
03-16-2010, 01:37 AM
+2 CHR means very little.. 30ish Spell points..

I'd think the best benefit of the 2 chr is saving 8 ap for low chr builds.

Nick_RC
03-16-2010, 06:46 PM
In the spirit of debateYo dark how ya doin? Debate was what I was after -so I should respond in kind!

Throw on a blood rage symbiant and the DR delta is 5. ah but the big problem with this is ur trinket slot is compromised. Litany and/or epic bloodstone (maybe epic HoGF). This alone deters me too much.

Five damage off of a hit is nice, but for a skilled player it will very very rarely mean the difference between dying and living. I see what ur saying and agree...sorta. Gah with epics everything changes. So it's sorta talking too different games. For anything pre epic(amrath mainly) gathering up a tonne of stuff is the most efficient way to do things. Teleporting devils x8 is when u really start to notice that DR difference. The single hit is not the issue, it's when those cumulative attacks start to come in...add harried to the situation and that's when that high dr shines. I guess it's those situations I.e life and death (and they always happen to me...often get myself in too much trouble lol) that make me stand by the static dr.So if we are not talking about the difference between living and dying, then we are talking mana efficiancy. If you are a melee build with a torc and con-op, mana is virtually limitlessUnless u have an AC(u bring it up later ;) agreed on principle however.. If you are a caster build, you should not be taking much physical damage anyway, and for you the 5 extra DR is of minimal impact.can't agree here. Ur losing too much as a caster splashing. Spell slots, spell points, spell pen.

Evasion end game different story. ADQ1 has been mentioned and there are other examples in the epic quests. elemental dmg I havnt had any probs with.It hits harder but once u get the right defences in place I couldn't care less about it.All of the things mentioned to reduce elemental damage like absorption, prots and shields, can also be utilized by someone with evasion for that 5% chance of rolling a 1. But how about non-elemental damage? Concede on this one. Evasion is nice in there for sure. Personally I don't have too many issues dodging/absorbing the dmg but absolutely agree.ToD elite traps in part one, without evasion you have very little chance of survival if you get thrown wrong and hit several traps at once. Five DR means squat. If ur hitting those traps ur not utilizing ur wings(not u personally, the general 'u' ,I have no doubt u use em properly lol) properly. I have em hotkeyed and apart from heal it's my most commonly used. Those wings are broken they are so good. There's not a chance il land in traps in Tod with those bad boys. DQ2 epic, evasion let's you take far less damage than 5 dr will, especially on a healer. If one is unlucky or unskillful, a knock down followed by blades can mean death. conceded.

MCCW is nice but not essential. Mass Heal, same and its slow cast time makes it situational. it's my workhorse in epic pretty much and once they fix it to hitting all 12 even better.Quickened MCMW + MCSW + MCLW (if you really want to take all three) is all you need 99.9% of the time when things turn south suddenly. so with mass serious I'm assuming ur missing holy aura? I'm also assuming ur overly well equipped. For those not so ur ref might start to get a little shaky without that +4.

Implosion and Energy Drain, both nice, but in epic content only one is useful.
Two more spell pene? Can be made up by the two extra feats you get if spell pene is that important. All things being equal, your BB will have a higher DC in water stance than a pure FvS, and he has two more feats he can throw towards evocation focus if the feats listed for the gtwf pure are

Bah running out of battery(on phone). Wanted to reply to ur other points but oh well. Ur handwraps plus bursting ring was a great point and a definate plus. Great for wieghted too.

Ok...If ur going str based I can see some competitive options. Spell slots arnt as big of a problem neither is sp/spell pen. If ur wisdom based with this split I can't see the point cos of spell slots.

Great points. Nice to see another thought out PoV.

Take care

N

Peo
03-21-2010, 10:43 PM
Evasion is an excellent catch for poor play.

For example;

In the spirit of debate:
Throw on a blood rage symbiant and the DR delta is 5. ... Five DR means squat. DQ2 epic, evasion let's you take far less damage than 5 dr will, especially on a healer. If one is unlucky or unskillful, a knock down followed by blades can mean death.
I'd rather wear something else in my trinket slot and an extra 5 DR is maybe the difference in ignoring the archers. I don't run into her blade barriers and I jump fly over the moving ones taking 0 damage becuase I never roll a save to fail it unlike those evasion guys I have to heal up.

Also theres hardly any traps in late game quests so evasion loses out there.

Kyrn
03-22-2010, 01:49 AM
For a more common example:

Harry's meteors and delayed fireballs can have it's damage potential significantly reduced by evasion. You have a much higher chance of surviving a meteor + fireball combo with evasion, than with DR/resistance.

Just randomly miffed from taking 350+ damage in one single unlucky meteor + fireball combo (after after counting fire resist and protection) right at the start of fight...

AylinIsAwesome
03-23-2010, 12:52 AM
I think the main reason to splash two Monk would be for the extra 2 feats on an Elven Scimitar FvS.

That's it. Evasion and extra skill points are just nice bonuses to that.

bobbryan2
03-23-2010, 04:54 PM
I have to agree. I started an 18/2 build. Got halfway to cap and though... ya know... I can't give that much up.

Started a pure WF build, and love it.

Evasion just isn't really needed for FvS. 10, 13, or 15 DR is just waaaaay too much to give up.

A_Sheep2
03-23-2010, 11:18 PM
The Stormreaver...and that's about it.

The difference is that you don't have to refresh an FvS DR, it's always there. 150 points of stoneskin goes away fairly quickly on elite.

Yeah, I mathematicked it and worked out that it would be gone in 15 hits. [:]D

zopzop
03-24-2010, 04:02 PM
Evasion just isn't really needed for FvS. 10, 13, or 15 DR is just waaaaay too much to give up.

Since I'm still new to this game (don't have a character over lvl 7 but I keep rolling alts), in what way is DR 10-15 more important than evasion?

In level 7 hard and elite quests the enemies are doing at LEAST 20 damage per swing, I'm assuming by end game elite and epic quests they are gonna hit A LOT harder. What good is DR 10 vs that? Compared to totally evading a 200 HP delayed blast fireball or Cometfall or Flamestrike?

Also you only get the DR 10 at Favored Soul level 20. You can get evasion at any point you want to take your two levels of Monk.

xTethx
03-24-2010, 06:14 PM
You show me a good fvs with evasion and ill show you a better one that is pure.

Impatiens
03-24-2010, 06:21 PM
You show me a good fvs with evasion and ill show you a better one that is pure.

If the pure FVS is better it's because it's being controlled by a better player ;)

Pure FVS have their assets. Monk splash FVS have their assets. They are both good. It really comes down to play style and preference.

bobbryan2
03-24-2010, 09:20 PM
If the pure FVS is better it's because it's being controlled by a better player ;)

Pure FVS have their assets. Monk splash FVS have their assets. They are both good. It really comes down to play style and preference.

I dunno.. I have read the arguments for splashing FvS with monk. They are still coming out hollow to me. On a cleric, it's a no brainer. On favored soul? Not so much.

bobbryan2
03-24-2010, 10:19 PM
Since I'm still new to this game (don't have a character over lvl 7 but I keep rolling alts), in what way is DR 10-15 more important than evasion?

In level 7 hard and elite quests the enemies are doing at LEAST 20 damage per swing, I'm assuming by end game elite and epic quests they are gonna hit A LOT harder. What good is DR 10 vs that? Compared to totally evading a 200 HP delayed blast fireball or Cometfall or Flamestrike?

Also you only get the DR 10 at Favored Soul level 20. You can get evasion at any point you want to take your two levels of Monk.

Well... firstly.. when you get it is of no consequence. Most people build for end game, and it doesn't matter how you get there. And even if it did... the earlier you get evasion, the more you're gimping your casting ability until end game. There's a big difference in a lvl 8 fvs/2 monk vs a 10 fvs in casting ability in middle game.

Secondly, When you are soloing quests, and you have 10 teleporting devils on you, 10 DR is blocking 100 damage every second or so. Just how many cometfalls would you have to have coming at you to block the sheer amount of damage? One every second? They just don't come that fast.

And even if they did, protection spells + a decent reflex save will negate almost all that damage anyway. Who cares if you need to reup a protection from elements every 6-7 seconds when you can completely ignore melee units and archers.

Dark-Star
03-24-2010, 10:41 PM
You show me a good fvs with evasion and ill show you a better one that is pure.

Again in the spirit of friendly debate, read and perhaps respond to my last response to Nick. Specifically build wise look at my Cleansoul build in my sig (needs to have updated gear added). I feel it's the most complete and well rounded FvS build that can be made. I have one capped now and it's a very powerful character, more so than the pure I capped.

If going WF, a case can certainly be made for going pure.

Impatiens
03-24-2010, 11:36 PM
Well... firstly.. when you get it is of no consequence. Most people build for end game, and it doesn't matter how you get there. And even if it did... the earlier you get evasion, the more you're gimping your casting ability until end game. There's a big difference in a lvl 8 fvs/2 monk vs a 10 fvs in casting ability in middle game.


If when you get evasion is of no consequence because people build for end game then the fact that you are "gimping" your casting ability until end game doesn't matter either...since, you know, you are building for end game ;)

I notice that the FVS in your sig is a WF. For WF FVS I would agree staying pure is better, but melee based FVS who are going for TWF are very feat starved and monk splash helps immensely with that.

Ultrazen
03-25-2010, 12:29 AM
/shrug. Having evasion and blade barrier when you get to gianthold is pretty fun. Given how many people TR at 20 and don't hang around long, it really depends on what you're going to do with the character long term. The elven 2/18 is a really fun, and very easy, toon to level.

There are a lot of people that enjoy getting a character to 20, and grinding out gear for a few years doing the same runs over and over. There are also a lot of people that enjoy leveling and trying out different paths along the way. I find myself in the 2nd camp. I have more fun trying new leveling builds, than I do endlessly grinding a max level character to try and make it .1% better, feels more like a job to me, but that's just me.

Lymnus
03-25-2010, 12:48 PM
If when you get evasion is of no consequence because people build for end game then the fact that you are "gimping" your casting ability until end game doesn't matter either...since, you know, you are building for end game ;)
A monk splash gives 1 more DC.
However, it takes 2 spell penn, as well as spell slots.

In my personal opinion, I believe a cleric fills that 18/2 role better. But, 18/2 FVS has something over a 20 FVS.

Calebro
03-25-2010, 12:58 PM
I dunno.. I have read the arguments for splashing FvS with monk. They are still coming out hollow to me. On a cleric, it's a no brainer. On favored soul? Not so much.

I'm of the opposite line of thought.
I don't understand why you'd want to splash a Cleric.
You have less SP to begin with, so splashing hurts even more, and your Reflex save sucks anyway so what good is evasion?
Favored Souls, on the other hand, have plenty of SP for a splash to still be viable, AND they have good Reflex saves.

Cleric comes out hollow to me, but if you wanted to splash FvS is the no brainer.

Impatiens
03-25-2010, 01:54 PM
A monk splash gives 1 more DC.
However, it takes 2 spell penn, as well as spell slots.

In my personal opinion, I believe a cleric fills that 18/2 role better. But, 18/2 FVS has something over a 20 FVS.

The thing is most monk splash FVS aren't casters. Sure they'll throw out a spell here and there but they are mostly melee healers with blade barrier. The fact that you have less spell penn doesn't matter if you are killing them with swords and blade barriers.

There is no denying that losing some spell slots hurts. I would love to have both mass heal and energy drain. However, it wasn't enough to make me want to go pure FVS over the benefits that 18/2 gives.

Lymnus
03-25-2010, 03:05 PM
I'm of the opposite line of thought.
I don't understand why you'd want to splash a Cleric.
You have less SP to begin with, so splashing hurts even more, and your Reflex save sucks anyway so what good is evasion?
Favored Souls, on the other hand, have plenty of SP for a splash to still be viable, AND they have good Reflex saves.

Cleric comes out hollow to me, but if you wanted to splash FvS is the no brainer.
Well:
You lose
* Two eighth level spell slots, and one ninth level spell slot.
* The Cleric capstone (It has its place; Abbot is a place of particular use).
* Approximately 150 spell points.
* To take full extent of the benefits, one is restricted to using outfits and robes.
* To be able to use the water stance, one must also limit oneself to kamas and quarterstaves.
* By losing two caster levels, this build will have 2 less spell penn. than a cleric of equal stats and gearing.
* Clonks also have to stay at low weight encumberance; the -2 STR that water stance imposes sometimes makes that even harder to obtain.
* It is worth noting that Clerics naturally have horrid reflex saves; this makes evasion harder to make worthwhile.

You get:

* When in water stance, clonks get +1 DC to all their spells, along with ~80 SP
* Clonks get 2 monk feats.
* Clonks also get 4 more reflex than a typical cleric would have, and 2 more fortitude and will, due to the class's base save progression and water stance.
* Clonks get evasion, which is arguably the best feat in the game.
* Clonks get a few nice enhancements, like Way of the Patient Tortoise (5 HP and 1 Concentration. Not much, but it's nice).
* Clonks get Wisdom to their AC.

zopzop
03-25-2010, 03:06 PM
I'm of the opposite line of thought.
I don't understand why you'd want to splash a Cleric.
You have less SP to begin with, so splashing hurts even more, and your Reflex save sucks anyway so what good is evasion?
Favored Souls, on the other hand, have plenty of SP for a splash to still be viable, AND they have good Reflex saves.

Cleric comes out hollow to me, but if you wanted to splash FvS is the no brainer.

The less SP is a problem but Valiance's Halfling Cleric 17/Monk 2/Rogue 1 has saves in the mid to upper 30s that should be more than enough. Not to mention the huge AC boost you get from the monk Wisdom bonus ability and the bonuses the various stances give you (Wind is a mini haste, grants +1 to Reflex saves and grants +1 to AC and Water grants +1 to AC, +1 to spell DC, and +2 to all saves that stacks with everything).

Calebro
03-25-2010, 05:07 PM
Well:

*all that*
I'm an advocate of the splash, you don't have to convince me. But it's MUCH more appropriate on a FvS than a Cleric IMO.

Lymnus
03-25-2010, 06:19 PM
I'm an advocate of the splash, you don't have to convince me. But it's MUCH more appropriate on a FvS than a Cleric IMO.

Not leading one way or another. Simply listing facts.

FvSes lose a bit more, IMO, but that's just my opinion.

bobbryan2
03-26-2010, 08:36 PM
I'm an advocate of the splash, you don't have to convince me. But it's MUCH more appropriate on a FvS than a Cleric IMO.

A cleric gives up a couple of unneeded spell slots and about 150 sp.

A favored soul gives up a ton of spell slots, eventually giving them a single lvl 9 spell, DR 10, infinite heals or damage, 300ish spell points.

Which splash gives up more again?

Yes, the spell points hurt clerics more.. but the loss of spell points was never the reason to not splash. Clerics don't have enough class abilities gained with lvl 19 and 20 to balance against the splash. Favored souls do.

What you're arguing is basically that Favored souls are better anyways. (I would coincidentally agree with that) But just because the Favored Soul starts at a better place doesn't mean he loses less when he splashes.

Peo
03-27-2010, 09:13 PM
Since I'm still new to this game (don't have a character over lvl 7 but I keep rolling alts), in what way is DR 10-15 more important than evasion?Yes.

Defenses against...

...Elemental Damage
1. Reflex halves the total damage dealt so suddenly incoming damage is halved.
2. Then -30/-40 for your resist hey we're already looking at ignoring 22d6 damage here.
3. Then finally you have an effective +120 hit points against each energy type.
4. Lastly, how often does it this attack go off anyway? If Mired with Kobolds is any example once per 15+ seconds is about the correct answer when talking dragon's breath. Spell wise, idk the vampire in necro 3's cursed crypt seem pretty slow at flamestriking and it is lucky to even get one off. The Shroud doesn't seem to be spell heavy either, the big red guy has a fire aura but Mass CLWs heals that when the protection is gone.

...Melee Damage
1. You don't have Displacement but you can ask for it. Like making you're reflex save you're having the damage dealt over time only instead of actually having the damage you ignore one and take 80 in the other.
2. You don't have DR but you can ask for Stoneskin. Now you resist 10 points until you get attacked 12 times. See 4 for how long this spell lasts.
3. Tempory HP form spells is much more ineffective cost wise to just casting Heal. You don't have anything here.
4. How often do you get attacked? Well I've killed mobs and looted a chest and still had combat numbers scrolling over my head afterwards from the combat prior. Once for 2/3s of a second per mob attacking you sound accurate enough?

So lets see, lots of defenses in one type that doesn't happen often. And the other is all the time and I, the healer whos role is to prevent the group from dying, have to beg someone else to prevent me from dying from something that happens quite often due to my desire to swing my weapons and also healing draws aggro.

aristarchus1000
03-28-2010, 04:18 PM
Yes.

Defenses against...

...Elemental Damage
1. Reflex halves the total damage dealt so suddenly incoming damage is halved.
2. Then -30/-40 for your resist hey we're already looking at ignoring 22d6 damage here.
3. Then finally you have an effective +120 hit points against each energy type.
4. Lastly, how often does it this attack go off anyway? If Mired with Kobolds is any example once per 15+ seconds is about the correct answer when talking dragon's breath. Spell wise, idk the vampire in necro 3's cursed crypt seem pretty slow at flamestriking and it is lucky to even get one off. The Shroud doesn't seem to be spell heavy either, the big red guy has a fire aura but Mass CLWs heals that when the protection is gone.

...Melee Damage
1. You don't have Displacement but you can ask for it. Like making you're reflex save you're having the damage dealt over time only instead of actually having the damage you ignore one and take 80 in the other.
2. You don't have DR but you can ask for Stoneskin. Now you resist 10 points until you get attacked 12 times. See 4 for how long this spell lasts.
3. Tempory HP form spells is much more ineffective cost wise to just casting Heal. You don't have anything here.
4. How often do you get attacked? Well I've killed mobs and looted a chest and still had combat numbers scrolling over my head afterwards from the combat prior. Once for 2/3s of a second per mob attacking you sound accurate enough?

So lets see, lots of defenses in one type that doesn't happen often. And the other is all the time and I, the healer whos role is to prevent the group from dying, have to beg someone else to prevent me from dying from something that happens quite often due to my desire to swing my weapons and also healing draws aggro.

Just to pose a counter-argument.

I agree that Elemental Damage is less frequent overall, but when it does occur tends to be less predictable and occurs in bunches. Have you seen sudden wipes of 3-4 players at once? It is never because of melee damage, it's because a couple mobs might have chained DBF or some other Reflex-based attack in a unlucky manner and take off some 400+ hp of damage (after resists) in less than a second (after lag). Other situations, like in ADQ2, a spike of lag, or i'm distracted trying to keep people alive and I get tripped or stuck inside a blade wall. Evasion, evasion, evasion, (yes 3 checks in a row) and I move out. Without evasion I might have died and since I'm such a critical role (as healer) it may mean a raid wipe. Could I have avoided it with a perfect connection and possibly better skills? sure. My skill and connection isn't there yet, so for now, evasion is really nice. I just don't know if I necessarily am looking for a build that requires that play the perfect 'game.' If I wanted to do that, I can always purposely 'gimp' myself for the challenge.

Melee damage can be rapid and repetitive, and DR is most effective against small repetitive damage as opposed to the big hits. However in general, small repetitive damage is predictable. Yes 20 Orthons are on me, but I generally saw them coming (since I trained them), and the drop is slow enough that I have plenty of time to drop a quickened heal on myself, and usually they are dead before I need a 2nd or 3rd one. Melee based mobs (even teleporting ones) are rather trivial to deal with when you have Blade Barrier and Leap of Faith. And yes, I've Red Alerted 'Sins of Attrition' and seen damage scroll for a solid 2 minutes after I kited everything. I honestly don't recall dieing to melee hardly ever. Stoneskin, bleh, I agree that there is no comparison to static DR. However, a simple Bloodrage Symbiont gives 5/DR and I find it good enough in most instances, I used it most of the time while leveling. If you can't get a Symbiont, warchanters are generally a part of most raid groups, so there is your DR 5/- right there. Static 10-15 DR is certainly efficient for soloing certain quests, of the right difficulty, but just not necessary, and does not scale as well to higher difficulty.... you may need to use a few extra heal scrolls on yourself, but I've never found it to be a matter of life and death.

In short, I consider the DR versus evasion argument to be a fair vs foul weather argument. DR is nice when everything is going well. It makes things more efficient, and in the right quest difficulty makes you feel totally uber. Evasion is nice when the sh*t hits the fan, whether it is due your own or another player's mistake. It is also more useful when things get more difficult. To me, it is question between mana efficiency and unpredictable sudden quest/raid failure.

Furthermore, I think usually it is not strictly evasion versus DR argument. In addition to evasion, you get 2 feats that are nearly required to get a decent TWF build. I really love how effective my character is with 2 vorpals, 2 disrupters, or 2 weighted 5% weapons. The THF WF FvS does pretty well regarding overall damage, but just doesn't offer that utility.

Just make things clear (to counter my own argument), DR in general is very powerful. DR is pretty darn nice in the right build. Especially with a WF build where you can also pick up a Docent of Defiance, and Titan's Docent and a high DR shield to get DR in the 30-40 range. Still, I think the best DR/Guard builds use Sorcerer and reconstruct, such as Tukaw's build: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=181901. The static DR is less needed when you can stoneskin yourself until the DoD procs. I'm working towards building a DR/Guard based build, but it isn't a Favored Soul.

zopzop
03-29-2010, 02:13 AM
Still, I think the best DR/Guard builds use Sorcerer and reconstruct, such as Tukaw's build: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=181901. The static DR is less needed when you can stoneskin yourself until the DoD procs. I'm working towards building a DR/Guard based build, but it isn't a Favored Soul.

Why would the Sorcerer and reconstruct builds be better than a FvS in terms of DR/Guard?

cforce
03-29-2010, 01:56 PM
In short, I consider the DR versus evasion argument to be a fair vs foul weather argument. DR is nice when everything is going well. It makes things more efficient, and in the right quest difficulty makes you feel totally uber. Evasion is nice when the sh*t hits the fan, whether it is due your own or another player's mistake. It is also more useful when things get more difficult. To me, it is question between mana efficiency and unpredictable sudden quest/raid failure.

+1 rep for summing up "what the big deal is" about evasion so well.



Furthermore, I think usually it is not strictly evasion versus DR argument. In addition to evasion, you get 2 feats that are nearly required to get a decent TWF build. I really love how effective my character is with 2 vorpals, 2 disrupters, or 2 weighted 5% weapons. The THF WF FvS does pretty well regarding overall damage, but just doesn't offer that utility.


+2 rep for pointing out the error oversimplification. Oh wait -- I can't do that? OK, I'll hit you with more rep later :).

I was going to weigh in on this thread, but I don't think I'm going to do a better job making the points above.

Valiance
03-31-2010, 02:10 AM
Just to pose a counter-argument.


Just make things clear (to counter my own argument), DR in general is very powerful. DR is pretty darn nice in the right build.... Especially with a WF build where you can also pick up a Docent of Defiance, and Titan's Docent and a high DR shield to get DR in the 30-40 range..

Why do people keep saying the DR is good "especially" on a WF? Defiance and Titan's don't stack with FvS DR. Thus I find WF to be the most compelling FvS to splash monk on.

Their at will blows, their DR even though it can be increased to 13 or 16 standing gets over ridden by Defiance 20 and Titan 30.

If I was giving up unlimited max/emp cure light wounds and had no other way to get a good DR....then ya I'd think twice about splashing. If I'm giving up unlimited shield spell and I have items that can give me 20dr whenever I really need it (and I have wings to shoot me around while under proc effects) then I'm splashing all day long.

I am wondering why no one else feels this way.

V

Gercho
03-31-2010, 07:37 AM
Well, the thing is, splashing makes more sense for twf than thf, cause you need the feats much more for twf, if you are a melee fvs THF (typically wfg), you wont have high ac anyway, so you are splashing for evasion and 2 feats that are not that important.
I agree that you lose less splashing in a wfg, but you gain less too.

Matuse
03-31-2010, 11:11 AM
Why do people keep saying the DR is good "especially" on a WF?

Because Adamantine Body stacks with FvS DR, and the enhancements stack up on both of them.

Impaqt
03-31-2010, 12:39 PM
Because Adamantine Body stacks with FvS DR, and the enhancements stack up on both of them.

I guess, but I have yet to see anyone Take the Adamantine body, multiple Improved DR Feats and invest the action points into the Enhancements.

the Extra DR just doesn't make mathematical sense. the feat and Action Point investment is way to high for a class that only has 7 Feats and way too many necessary enhancements.

clanqui
03-31-2010, 12:49 PM
I guess, but I have yet to see anyone Take the Adamantine body, multiple Improved DR Feats and invest the action points into the Enhancements.

the Extra DR just doesn't make mathematical sense. the feat and Action Point investment is way to high for a class that only has 7 Feats and way too many necessary enhancements.

I don't find souls particularly action point starved. Feats yeah, but AP's not so much.

Impaqt
03-31-2010, 01:12 PM
I don't find souls particularly action point starved. Feats yeah, but AP's not so much.

I'd be interested to see some mock enhancements for a DR Specced FvS.

zopzop
03-31-2010, 02:56 PM
Because Adamantine Body stacks with FvS DR, and the enhancements stack up on both of them.

But you missed his point, that DR doesn't stack with stuff like Docent of Defiance which provide greater DR than what you get with Adamantine Body + FvS DR + the enhancements.

And I hope aristarchus1000 comes back, I really want to know what he meant by this "Still, I think the best DR/Guard builds use Sorcerer and reconstruct, such as Tukaw's build: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=181901."

clanqui
03-31-2010, 03:30 PM
I'd be interested to see some mock enhancements for a DR Specced FvS.

This isn't exactly how I am building my forged soul, but I think it shows that you can get full melee enhancements and full healing pretty easily and still free up the ap's for +3 DR.



Enhancement: Favored Soul Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Favored Soul Ascendency: Lord of Blades
Enhancement: Bladesworn Transformation
Enhancement: Favored Soul Greatsword Specialization II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Incredible Life III
Enhancement: Favored Soul Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Favored Soul Charisma I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Wisdom II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Toughness I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction III
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude III

Impaqt
03-31-2010, 03:34 PM
This isn't exactly how I am building my forged soul, but I think it shows that you can get full melee enhancements and full healing pretty easily and still free up the ap's for +3 DR.



Enhancement: Favored Soul Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Favored Soul Ascendency: Lord of Blades
Enhancement: Bladesworn Transformation
Enhancement: Favored Soul Greatsword Specialization II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Incredible Life III
Enhancement: Favored Soul Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Favored Soul Charisma I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Wisdom II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Toughness I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction III
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude III




I'd rather have the 40+ Hit points

Gercho
03-31-2010, 03:35 PM
Well, the way that a fvs melee focused plays out, self healing and doing melee damage, using dr and maybe some ward damage, its similar to the way that tukaw build plays... only that uses different buffs (arcane buffs are better than cleric buffs) and reconstruct instead of healing, so it could be argued that those two builds are similar in concept, and in his opinion, the sorc build is better...
Not sure if that answers your doubts, or you have some specific question...

Impaqt
03-31-2010, 04:05 PM
Well, the way that a fvs melee focused plays out, self healing and doing melee damage, using dr and maybe some ward damage, its similar to the way that tukaw build plays... only that uses different buffs (arcane buffs are better than cleric buffs) and reconstruct instead of healing, so it could be argued that those two builds are similar in concept, and in his opinion, the sorc build is better...
Not sure if that answers your doubts, or you have some specific question...

Arcane buffs are better than devine Buffs? how so?

Divine Favor +3 to Hit and Damage. No Arcane Equavalent.
Divine Power BAB=Level and +6 STR. Tensors: BAB=Level, Grants Martial Weapons, Cannot Cast while under its effects. +4 Profane Bonus to STR, so thats nice at least.

Prayer: AOE -1 To Hit, Saves and SKills to Mobvs while adding +1 Hit, Saves and SKills. Hit does not stack with Divine Favor though. Arcane: No Equivalent.

Recitation: +2 To Hit, Saves, and Armor Class: No Arcane Equivalent.

Protection From Evil: Both Arcane and Divine.

Resists: Both Arcane and Divine

Protects: Both arcane and Divine

Haste: Great buff, but comes in Pots and is AOE, Very few groups run without a haster anyway.

Greater Heroism: Very Nice Arcane buff. But available on a Popular L9 Item, a Necklace, and can be UMD'd off a scroll as well.

True Seeing: Both Arcane and Divine

What am I missing?

clanqui
03-31-2010, 04:15 PM
I'd rather have the 40+ Hit points

There are any number of trades you can make for them. I would give up all of prayer of incredible life in a heartbeat, and prayer of life not much after.

You always have to make tradeoffs, but when you compare building a melee Fvs with say a KOTC paladin, the amount of 'free' AP's is absurd.

zopzop
03-31-2010, 05:41 PM
Well, the way that a fvs melee focused plays out, self healing and doing melee damage, using dr and maybe some ward damage, its similar to the way that tukaw build plays... only that uses different buffs (arcane buffs are better than cleric buffs) and reconstruct instead of healing, so it could be argued that those two builds are similar in concept, and in his opinion, the sorc build is better...
Not sure if that answers your doubts, or you have some specific question...

No no this is fine. I'm just new to this and trying to figure out what's what :) Thanks for the explanation. Because I figured aside from certain spells the FvS and Tukaw's Sorc build are almost identical. Just wanted to make sure.

aristarchus1000
03-31-2010, 07:37 PM
But you missed his point, that DR doesn't stack with stuff like Docent of Defiance which provide greater DR than what you get with Adamantine Body + FvS DR + the enhancements.

And I hope aristarchus1000 comes back, I really want to know what he meant by this "Still, I think the best DR/Guard builds use Sorcerer and reconstruct, such as Tukaw's build: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=181901."

While I am flattered, I recommend you pay closer attention to those like Nick, sirgog, Impaqt and Valiance who are far more experienced than I. :)

A couple points that were made after or as a result of my rather lengthy previous post:

1) DR/Guard builds: Favored Soul based versus Sorceror based. My point was that the main reason WF DR/Guard builds were good were due to key magic items being available in the game, most notably the Docent of Defiance and the Titan's Docent. The static DR from the FvS is also nice, but the strongest guard build I've seen is based on the Sorc/Pal/Monk build because of the ITEMS, not due to the DR inherent in the class. The Sorc based build has better static area spells, which don't require as much kiting. Divine Power is obtained using clickies which are reasonably easy to attain (Tukaw say he has a bar of 10 x5 DP clickies). In my opinion, while I've seen successful Favored Soul DR/Guard WF builds, they often use the above devices (usually Docent of Defiance) which do NOT stack with the FvS capstone. They also don't achieve the level of success the Tukaw Sorc build has gotten, including completing Raids solo.

2) Valiance regarding WF pure versus monk-splash: I don't disagree with you, with the existence of the DoD and Titan's Docent, the FvS capstone is in some ways, less compelling. I guess I never really considered monk-splash on the WF because their favored weapon is a Two-handed weapon, and, Based on reports in this forum, getting the THF chain does not seem to have a meaningful effect. (These findings are confirmed by many playing non-dps THF builds, including bards). I suppose one could consider it if you go Sovereign Host and use longswords. Anyway, assuming you are using Greatswords, you lose one of the main reasons to get monk splash -- the extra feats. I suppose one may still want to get evasion, or maybe even go Rogue splash and pick up in-class UMD, and possibly something useful like Open Lock as well. I don't have any experience playing such a character, and nobody that I know of has posted their experience playing a character like this in the forums in the last 6 months. If you have a build idea, we should probably start another thread and discuss it, I'd be really interested in the success anyone has had with it.

Thanks for everyone who has contributed to this discussion.

hu-flung-pu
03-31-2010, 07:49 PM
I'd rather have the 40+ Hit points

Why?

That's not even a single hit's worth of damage on mid level elite.

6 AP's is worth the investment in DR over hit points.

Valiance
03-31-2010, 07:54 PM
So does anyone else agree with me that spending all of those resources on DR might be kind've pointless when you as a WF (and only as a WF) already have items that give you dr20 and dr30 that don't stack?

My general argument is that the dr10- on a fleshie (who can't get dr that high any other way) is much more critical than the dr10 on a WF (who can get much higher dr from multiple items).

V

Impaqt
03-31-2010, 08:08 PM
Why?

That's not even a single hit's worth of damage on mid level elite.

6 AP's is worth the investment in DR over hit points.

It would take 20 hits to make up 40 hit points via DR. If your really talking over 40 per hit. EVERYONE is dead by that time anyway. as a Self healer, the addition 2 points of DR is moot.

and DR is a 2/4/6 line. thats 12 action points for 3DR.

Peo
03-31-2010, 08:32 PM
Furthermore, I think usually it is not strictly evasion versus DR argument. In addition to evasion, you get 2 feats that are nearly required to get a decent TWF build. I really love how effective my character is with 2 vorpals, 2 disrupters, or 2 weighted 5% weapons. The THF WF FvS does pretty well regarding overall damage, but just doesn't offer that utility.
Metamaigc: Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell.
Combat: Power Attack, Toughness.
1 Feat slot left.
Retain Improved Critical out for after you craft a Mineral II weapon.

You can drop Extend to, nearly every divine preps Recitation and Shield of Faith & Nightshield cover the roll of Holy Aura. The only reason you have it is to Extend is Blade Barrier and Divine Power. Given that you can simply carry clickies to make up the 40% loss of sp or so of not extending DP it's all up to BB to validate an entire feat slot.

Also it should be noted this only applies to Elven TWF FvS, the other main FvS build, THF WF FvS, does 100% fine without the THF feat chain and Cleave is probably the feat that replaces IM-Crit. Which goes to say right out of the box this so called monk dip only applies to 1/2 of primary FvS builds as being a considerable option so start with.

So Evasion can be nice in some cases over DR but once people start posting about how DR is better in general cases things turn to "but you get feats too!".
I say read the above, then read below.

You get spells too!
Pick what you think are the best two from here (assuming your only 9th level spell is Mass Heal)
1. What is the value of imposing a -13 penalty to everything they do and the -130HP loss of a target in a single spell?
2. What is the value of out right killing up to 20 enemies without action or thought and one one takes damage for doing so?
3. What is the value of resurrecting someone to full life rather than 50% (or even 10%!) and hoping to squeeze Heal in?

Theres also an 8th level spell known, too lazy to list them.

Dark-Star
03-31-2010, 08:46 PM
As for the enancements shown above, I'd drop prayer of incredible life for toughness enhancements any day of the week.


So does anyone else agree with me that spending all of those resources on DR might be kind've pointless when you as a WF (and only as a WF) already have items that give you dr20 and dr30 that don't stack?

My general argument is that the dr10- on a fleshie (who can't get dr that high any other way) is much more critical than the dr10 on a WF (who can get much higher dr from multiple items).

V

The Titan clickie, if you can even get one, is very finite in duration.

The DoD, while one of the best items in the game, is situational - even for a FvS with Leap. I use the DoD a lot personally, but I don't know anyone that plays with it on full time.

Going back to your other post, if a WF went Sov Host, he trades the class greatsword enhancements for longsword. At that point you start changing the build significantly enough to consider just going Human.

hu-flung-pu
04-01-2010, 01:28 AM
It would take 20 hits to make up 40 hit points via DR. If your really talking over 40 per hit. EVERYONE is dead by that time anyway. as a Self healer, the addition 2 points of DR is moot.

and DR is a 2/4/6 line. thats 12 action points for 3DR.

Which is the point of the DR.

To make your hit points go farther. So every one else is getting hit for fourty, you're getting for 25. Two hits and you've already saved 30 hit points that would have been depleted.

You're right it is 12, brain fart.



As for the enancements shown above, I'd drop prayer of incredible life for toughness enhancements any day of the week.



The Titan clickie, if you can even get one, is very finite in duration.

The DoD, while one of the best items in the game, is situational - even for a FvS with Leap. I use the DoD a lot personally, but I don't know anyone that plays with it on full time.

Going back to your other post, if a WF went Sov Host, he trades the class greatsword enhancements for longsword. At that point you start changing the build significantly enough to consider just going Human.

Exactly, situationally it's valid when it procs. Every other time I've got the almost exact same DR. It's a valid choice in your build, but I tend to prefer rock steady reliability over crossing fingers and hoping it pays off.

Impaqt
04-01-2010, 08:55 AM
Which is the point of the DR.

To make your hit points go farther. So every one else is getting hit for fourty, you're getting for 25. Two hits and you've already saved 30 hit points that would have been depleted.

You're right it is 12, brain fart.

We're not talking about 15 extra points of DR. We're talking about 1-5. ALL l20 FvS's get 10. The question is does the extra DR really significant enought to spend a Dozen action points AND take feats?







Exactly, situationally it's valid when it procs. Every other time I've got the almost exact same DR. It's a valid choice in your build, but I tend to prefer rock steady reliability over crossing fingers and hoping it pays off.

hu-flung-pu
04-04-2010, 04:14 AM
That's personal choice. A feat with some benefits and penalties, and 12 AP's.

Playstyle and choices.

Personally it's worth it, five extra DR is hard to come by else where with reliability. Only other place is in improved damage reduction or hoping your DoD procs in time. It's considerably cheap to get.

Gercho
04-05-2010, 12:36 PM
Arcane buffs are better than devine Buffs? how so?

Divine Favor +3 to Hit and Damage. No Arcane Equavalent.
Divine Power BAB=Level and +6 STR. Tensors: BAB=Level, Grants Martial Weapons, Cannot Cast while under its effects. +4 Profane Bonus to STR, so thats nice at least.

Prayer: AOE -1 To Hit, Saves and SKills to Mobvs while adding +1 Hit, Saves and SKills. Hit does not stack with Divine Favor though. Arcane: No Equivalent.

Recitation: +2 To Hit, Saves, and Armor Class: No Arcane Equivalent.

Protection From Evil: Both Arcane and Divine.

Resists: Both Arcane and Divine

Protects: Both arcane and Divine

Haste: Great buff, but comes in Pots and is AOE, Very few groups run without a haster anyway.

Greater Heroism: Very Nice Arcane buff. But available on a Popular L9 Item, a Necklace, and can be UMD'd off a scroll as well.

True Seeing: Both Arcane and Divine

What am I missing?

Well, i m thinking mostly about soloing.

For me, haste, displacement, fire/cold shield are the main 3 things i like about arcane over divine.
Stone skin is nice till you get a better dr.

Of course, once umd and pots/clickies come into play, most things, both arcane and divine, can be replaced.

As haste and displacement are really short duration, and fire shield is not that long either, using pots clickies or scroll from those is annoying.

So, imho, caster buffs are a little better than divine, i m not saying that its not close though, i like fvs for other reasons, so eventually i will roll fvs anyway...
For example i like the fact that a fvs can still be main healer in a raid.

wolfy42
04-06-2010, 12:42 AM
My first FvS was warforged and pure...and I really liked him.

I later decided to get a bit fonky and went with a nice TWF build.

Evasion really does make a big difference throughout the game at least in my experience, and honestly as a monk you will be using robes (for the wisdom ac bonus) for most of the game which means you can easily get DR that way (I think you can get 5/magic DR as early as level 4 or 6 at the most).

Meanwhile you can also get VERY decent AC (enough to make a difference throughout most of the game), so you will probably be getting hit less often....reducing melee damage more then DR would anyway and extending how long a SS will last on you.

Elven TWF Monk/FVS builds get evasion, 2 extra feats (Very nice when going the TWF route), evasion, the ability to use stance for higher DC's when using CC spells, slightly higher base saves, wisdom bonus to AC (significant bonus throught the early and mid game at least, and possibly useful for most of the end game as well). I like going with way of the clever monkey as well for the +1 trap save and +2 universal energy resistance that stacks with FvS bonuses and spells.

Early on the THF WF pure FvS did have higher DPS (makes sense since TWF takes awhile to shine) but long term it actually had less.

As far as tanking the difference between the two builds was fairly large...in favor of the monk/FvS hybrid at least through most of the game. The monk levels pushed the AC up significantly, almost reducing the chance to be hit by 50% in many cases (partially due to using adamantium armor on my WF). The DR on the elf still took care of grazing blows just fine and still stopped most if not all physical arrow damage (my resists were actually better against elemental arrow damage).

Spell wise of course there is no comparison really, not only do you end up with evasion stopping all damage if you make your save, but you end up with higher saves as well!!

As has been mentioned previously usually if you get taken out on higher difficulty levels it's not due to melee damage....that is much easier to plan for and deal with, it's because of hard hitting spells....and no matter how skilled you are, it's MUCH easier to deal with them if you have evasion then without.

Robes of invulnerability early on will give you more DR then a WF will have using a feat and a bunch of AP and by the time it stops being useful you'll have other methods of getting DR if needed. Evasion meanwhile will make many quests MUCH easier and increase your chance of surviving greatly. I'm not saying EVERY FvS needs evasion, but I do think evasion is in general more useful to have then natural DR...since you can get it from other sources pretty easy. Even WF have alternative DR methods....and since you don't get the +10 DR until 20 anyway.....honestly I still think having evasion for a WF is a better option.

The real question is if it's worth losing the spell slots and possibly unlimited damage spells or healing spells...but again, since you don't get them till 20.....it depends greatly on what you are aiming for. If you plan on reincarnating or starting a new character fairly soon after hitting 20......then whats the point on building for lvl 20? In that case I think the game is easier on the way up to 20 with 2 monk levels pretty much.

MsEricka
04-06-2010, 03:17 AM
It's too much. Work on ur reflex save, learn to dodge dip duck dive and dodge and enjoy the benefits of a lvl 20 fvs.

Fixed it for you

Dylvish
04-06-2010, 12:39 PM
A monk splash gives 1 more DC.
However, it takes 2 spell penn, as well as spell slots.

In my personal opinion, I believe a cleric fills that 18/2 role better. But, 18/2 FVS has something over a 20 FVS.


If its a melee type build, cleric comes nowhere close to filling the role better.

Ultrazen
04-08-2010, 11:35 PM
It's another one of those DDO things, what's better, completely negating 300+ points of damage, or mitigating 30 of it?
When it works, and in the right situation, evasion is without a doubt the single biggest damage reduction in the game.....when it works. If you *really* build an FVS for evasion, say 1 rogue, 2 monk, 17 FVS, it can be pretty spectacular with the right gear in the right situation, but like all things DDO there is no absolute, it's all situational.

There are times when your multi is going make you look like a genius, and times when it's going to make you look like an idiot, it's just the nature of the game.

It's also very much a playstyle choice, and what you enjoy doing. Some people love the flexibility splashing gives, and it suits their playstyle. Some people hate trying to micromanage 2000300 pieces of gear and situations, it really depends on your playstyle, and what you find fun and engaging.

zehnvhex
04-26-2010, 04:19 PM
A few levels away and going to end up true reincarnating and about to make the decision between pure and monk splash, looking for a little insight. I'm leaning towards pure now since the advantages of going monk splash just don't seem like they're that big of a deal. I'll probably spend a lot of time solo'ing as well even though we have a steady group going to play with.

Anyways...thoughts would be appreciated.

Evasion vs. DR: It sounds a lot to me like the Warcraft tanking situation where some tanks can completely block hits with a shield, but the content where that's actually useful is trivial to begin with. At the same time I'm hearing that evasion is basically pointless because most of the things that you can reflex save against you can manually dodge anyways.

The more and more I read about both abilities the more it seems neither of them are that big of a deal to begin with. I've only done up to level 14 content though so I'm hoping someone with more late game experience can chime in. I've tried reading up on it but it seems everyone just uses that crappy "Well what do you want to do? Pick what you want!" answer which is completely pointless because if I wanted to do what I felt like I wouldn't be asking for advice. 8(

So correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like both of these are a non-issue. So far the only example of 10 dr being useful I've seen is someone mentioning teleporting devils that hit really lightly. Is there really that many situations where something like that is an actual threat? At the same time the evasion example I see is "Traps!" which I rarely have an issue with.

---

Pure caster vs. Splash melee: Here's another point of contention I'm seeing. It seems that the consensus is that if you want to melee (which I do) the 2 monk bonus feats are pretty crucial. I'm looking at it though and not seeing it. Toughness just doesn't seem all that important. Yeah you can then blow, what, 13 ap on it and get like 80 hp once it's all said and done, but a single CLW from pure capstone seems to trump that, and the 10 dr as well should help. The only counter to that seems to be the one/two shot argument.

So that leaves you with having 4 feats vying for 2 spots. Empower, Extend spell, improved critical and power attack. Extend is pretty easy to live without. Since I'm meleeing power attack seems like a no-brainer to take. Which leaves Imp Critical vs. Empower. Not sure which one maths out better in the long run. I'm assuming empower works out better because it has the added bonus of affecting heals as well and you can always get keen weapons for the handful of critical proc effects.

---

At the end of the day it seems like the differences are so slight between pure vs. monk that you really can go either way. If you want to TWF you can go either way and the only real choice is whether you want the capstone heal or not since everything else is moot or mitigatable. Am I wrong?

Right now I'm a 12 FvS/2 Monk and I can solo even level stuff pretty handily. Just getting a feeling that if I was pure 14 FvS it would be even easier because I'd have access to higher level spells and it would kick into overdrive when I hit 20 and get CLW at will.

nicro
04-26-2010, 05:59 PM
A few levels away and going to end up true reincarnating and about to make the decision between pure and monk splash, looking for a little insight. I'm leaning towards pure now since the advantages of going monk splash just don't seem like they're that big of a deal. I'll probably spend a lot of time solo'ing as well even though we have a steady group going to play with.

Anyways...thoughts would be appreciated...
You don't splash two levels of monk for evasion. You splash two levels of monk because your build requires the two extra feats. If your build doesn't need the feats then don't splash.

zehnvhex
04-26-2010, 07:02 PM
Thanks for the succinct answer. Puts my mind at ease. <3

Aerendil
04-27-2010, 01:36 PM
The thing is most monk splash FVS aren't casters. Sure they'll throw out a spell here and there but they are mostly melee healers with blade barrier. The fact that you have less spell penn doesn't matter if you are killing them with swords and blade barriers.

There is no denying that losing some spell slots hurts. I would love to have both mass heal and energy drain. However, it wasn't enough to make me want to go pure FVS over the benefits that 18/2 gives.

I think this pretty much summed it up for me.
If it's a TWF melee FvS, they'll (1) more than likely need the extra feats from a Monk splash, and (2) have a high DEX for TWFing which translates into a better reflex save which makes the most out of Evasion. So it's certainly a very tempting splash, especially if the only offensive magic you're thinking of is blade barrier.

If it's a caster FvS primarily, there's more incentive to stay pure. Not to mention the stat points will probably be spent mostly on WIS, and not DEX, lending towards a lower reflex save.

zopzop
04-27-2010, 06:46 PM
If it's a caster FvS primarily, there's more incentive to stay pure. Not to mention the stat points will probably be spent mostly on WIS, and not DEX, lending towards a lower reflex save.


Unless you got a negative DEX score it doesn't really matter. FvS and Monks have 3 excellent saves. Base, with no negative stats, you have 12/12/12 at level 20.

Now add in a decent DEX score, at most 16, and that's another +3 to reflex saves.

Now pick a race that gets saves vs spells, like Halfling's or Dwarves, and that's another +4 to +5 to all saves vs spells.

Now add in items that increase DEX or Reflex saves.

Now add in the Monk Wind (+1 to DEX stacks with anything) or Water (+2 to all saves stacks with anything) Stance .

You should have NO problem Evading any spell with a reflex save in this game.

Gunga
04-27-2010, 06:48 PM
I just TR'd my Cleric into a HUMAN TWF FvS. Love it. She's almost 14 holding on to 12 right now.

Going 20.

Impaqt
04-27-2010, 07:19 PM
Unless you got a negative DEX score it doesn't really matter. FvS and Monks have 3 excellent saves. Base, with no negative stats, you have 12/12/12 at level 20.

Now add in a decent DEX score, at most 16, and that's another +3 to reflex saves.

Now pick a race that gets saves vs spells, like Halfling's or Dwarves, and that's another +4 to +5 to all saves vs spells.

Now add in items that increase DEX or Reflex saves.

Now add in the Monk Wind (+1 to DEX stacks with anything) or Water (+2 to all saves stacks with anything) Stance .

You should have NO problem Evading any spell with a reflex save in this game.

on Normal Maybe...

And what about Traps?

Sorry, but a mid 20's Reflex save isnt that exciting.

zopzop
04-27-2010, 09:57 PM
@Impaqt

Trap DC is ridiculous I'll give you that. But you shouldn't have a problem evading enemy spells. Valiance's Cleric 17/Rogue 1/Monk 2 has a Reflex save that's almost 40. A FvS 18/Monk 2 multi would top that. My Halfling Monk 2/Cleric 3 got a mid teens Reflex save already with Water stance and slightly less with Wind Stance.

I don't know where you're getting this mid 20s number.

Aerendil
04-28-2010, 08:56 AM
Unless you got a negative DEX score it doesn't really matter. FvS and Monks have 3 excellent saves. Base, with no negative stats, you have 12/12/12 at level 20.

Now add in a decent DEX score, at most 16, and that's another +3 to reflex saves.

Now pick a race that gets saves vs spells, like Halfling's or Dwarves, and that's another +4 to +5 to all saves vs spells.

Now add in items that increase DEX or Reflex saves.

Now add in the Monk Wind (+1 to DEX stacks with anything) or Water (+2 to all saves stacks with anything) Stance .

You should have NO problem Evading any spell with a reflex save in this game.

Well, my point was that a pure Caster:
- probably won't have a decent DEX score. Their points will be in WIS and CON primarily, followed by STR.
- probably won't be a halfling or dwarf. Human, Elf, or WF seem to be the most popular racial choices for FvSs.
- water stance requires centering items. If you're a caster and can't find a potency / devotion kama or QS, there's no point really.
- 12 base reflex is still somewhat lacking if you haven't the right stats/gear to back it up. For example, a pure caster may only be sitting at a 20ish reflex save at endgame. As Impaqt pointed out, that is NOT enough for Evasion to kick in most of the time. Especially on anything hard/elite/epic.


*edit*
Just to break down the Reflex saves a bit more, for the sake of argument:
- Pure 20 FvS = 12 reflex. 18 FvS / 2 Monk = 11+3=14 Reflex.
- Dex bonus = starting dex anywhere from 8 if on a pure evoker or THF build to, let's say, 16 if Elf TWF. At endgame factor in +6 item +2 tome as your base. So now it's 16-24 base dex (+3 to +7 to reflex). With better tomes, exceptional dex, racial, and possible monk stances, that may boost it a further +3-4. So DEX bonus is the largest variable here, with anything from a mere +3 to reflex save up to +11ish.
- having a serious brainfart here, but I *believe* protection items add to saving throws. So we'll throw an extra +5 in here. Correct me if I'm wrong.

So a FVS is going to most likely have anywhere from a base 20 reflex save to a 30+ reflex save at endgame, depending on whether or not splashed, dex bonus, etc. And further boostable with saving throw clicky boosts (FvS or Human Versatility) and various spells (GH, Recitation, etc.) for an extra +5-10. So, let's say, 25 - 40 as your final number.

But as shown, the dex bonus is the real modifer here. If you're going THF or pure caster build, your DEX probably won't be high enough to give you a reasonable reflex save, which doesn't justify Evasion.

Calebro
04-28-2010, 03:43 PM
- having a serious brainfart here, but I *believe* protection items add to saving throws. So we'll throw an extra +5 in here. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Protection adds a deflection bonus to AC. No help on saves.
You're thinking of Resistance, I believe.

Vengenance
04-28-2010, 06:15 PM
I just TR'd my Cleric into a HUMAN TWF FvS. Love it. She's almost 14 holding on to 12 right now.

Going 20.

I did the same with my cleric a bit ago and just capped him as a FVS this past week. I must say I really enjoy playing the FVS over the cleric and I'm really tempted to TR my Dwarf BC into a Human FVS. It's really hard to see the benifit of a Cleric over a FVS, especially after playing both to cap now.

aristarchus1000
04-28-2010, 06:30 PM
this thread won't die. :)

I capped my 18/2 fvs/monk, and I love evasion. Compared to my non-evasion builds, it is a total easy button. Done all the major raids, and having no problems healing with 18 levels of FvS. Not really worried about the extra couple hundred sps.

Ideally I'd like the extra 8th level spot and 9th level spell slot, but since he isn't really an offensive caster it isn't a big a deal. I bought scrolls for most of my other needs and find that I actually don't use them that fast.

Not really missing the capstone yet. I've soloed a few quests with and without DR and doesn't really make much a difference. I don't have a Torc, tho, perhaps the balance will shift after I have one of those. A couple solo loot runs and I can make enough plat to buy a 100 heal scrolls pretty easily, so i'm not missing the healing capstone, which is the only spell effect I might want.

Haven't really done epic yet, so that might change. Don't know if I ever will, honestly.

Comfortably2
04-29-2010, 05:01 AM
Both builds have their ups and downs in different aspects of the game mechanics.


Player is just as important as the build. ;)

RS-Makk
04-29-2010, 06:36 AM
this thread won't die. :)

I capped my 18/2 fvs/monk, and I love evasion. Compared to my non-evasion builds, it is a total easy button. Done all the major raids, and having no problems healing with 18 levels of FvS. Not really worried about the extra couple hundred sps.

Ideally I'd like the extra 8th level spot and 9th level spell slot, but since he isn't really an offensive caster it isn't a big a deal. I bought scrolls for most of my other needs and find that I actually don't use them that fast.

Not really missing the capstone yet. I've soloed a few quests with and without DR and doesn't really make much a difference. I don't have a Torc, tho, perhaps the balance will shift after I have one of those. A couple solo loot runs and I can make enough plat to buy a 100 heal scrolls pretty easily, so i'm not missing the healing capstone, which is the only spell effect I might want.

Haven't really done epic yet, so that might change. Don't know if I ever will, honestly.

I am leveling an 18/2. What spell are you carrying for your 9th level spell? (and what quests are you doing for loot runs.. I am obsessed with finding good loot runs to keep buying stuff!)

Xeriphim
04-29-2010, 02:11 PM
Given the situational use of evasion . Would it be worth it if you were a 20 monk an tr'd into fvs , went pure an at 3rd level picked up past life monk for the clickable evasion effect ? . That way you still have that situational evasion while still staying a pure fvs . With the favored soul you have pretty nice saves to begin with . Granted not everyone is going to roll a 20 monk much less true reincarnate said 20 monk into a favor soul ... But might be an option to look at for those who enjoy tr' ing .

Gunga
04-29-2010, 03:24 PM
Player is just as important as the build. ;)

Which is clearly why I need to make the right build choice.

Osharan_Tregarth
05-04-2010, 07:54 PM
I did the same with my cleric a bit ago and just capped him as a FVS this past week. I must say I really enjoy playing the FVS over the cleric and I'm really tempted to TR my Dwarf BC into a Human FVS. It's really hard to see the benifit of a Cleric over a FVS, especially after playing both to cap now.

Human for the extra feat, yes?

aristarchus1000
05-05-2010, 01:29 AM
I am leveling an 18/2. What spell are you carrying for your 9th level spell? (and what quests are you doing for loot runs.. I am obsessed with finding good loot runs to keep buying stuff!)

Mass Heal. With quicken, it is the spell I use 90% of the time. Takes some practice to get used to the timing, but very very powerful.

sirgog
05-05-2010, 03:48 AM
Mass Heal. With quicken, it is the spell I use 90% of the time. Takes some practice to get used to the timing, but very very powerful.

Seconded.

Best spell on the Cleric/FvS list. Nothing else comes anywhere near it.

Mellkor
05-05-2010, 08:22 AM
Mass Heal. With quicken, it is the spell I use 90% of the time. Takes some practice to get used to the timing, but very very powerful.

Yep.

aristarchus1000
05-05-2010, 03:58 PM
LOL, it is largely due to posts by you two (Sirgog and Mellkor) that I've started trying Mass Heal out. Now I can't imagine why it's not more popular. It is the easy button on a lot of raid healing, and with some practice really not that bad for most quests either.

Mass Heal is so efficient compared to other Mass Cure spells that even if you use is non-optimized (overheal accidently, miss a few people) it is far more efficient than the rest of your healing repertoire.

Calebro
05-05-2010, 04:12 PM
It's not more popular because it wasn't working correctly before. It has been fixed fairly recently however, and now it is TEH ROXORZ!

Anthios888
05-09-2010, 09:52 PM
Splash for feats, not for wisdom to ac or evasion. Two weapon fighting melee builds have a tough time fitting it all in without a splash.

Thorzian
05-09-2010, 10:07 PM
im with impaqt. the hitpoints are the better way to go. also my argument against evasion on a fvs. ive seen a few posts on this thread telling how evasion saved their life. really? get some hp. you're a self healing class... with a free cure spell. i cant think of even a single situation where i would rather have evasion versus all the benefits of a pure fvs.

Steveohio
05-10-2010, 09:33 PM
epic dq, enter the kobold, SoS, are a few off the top of my head that evasion significantly increases survivability.

I know I wouldn't give up evasion on my FVS's builds, its just too dang good.

Mass heal is nice/great, but with devotion items, the quicker, smaller ones are just as effective, and alot faster, for abit more sp(40). They are also less prone to cause lag deaths in raids.

Spell pentration and offensive casting I leave to the arcanes, I personally feel all or most of a divine casters spell points should be aimed towards healing. Theres a hate on battle clerics, but at least they use their mana for group heals, offensive casting just takes it away. Honestly not surprised theres no backlash on the evocation healer builds in general.

All that leaves is the DR and a free heal spell. Evasion is personally more useful than DR. and scrolls are free(sp) for me.

So which would you rather take?

10/dr (easily replaced as a WF through items)
free 150ish point heals (if your sov host, the other capstones are pretty weak)
Spell penetration for you to use those spell points to not heal your group with
2 charisma which equates to about 50 sp
more lvl 8/9 spells (the best benefit, however most spells are not needed)

or

Evasion with top notch reflex
better melee dps via 2 feats
better saves
stances
better ac
less focusing on healing yourself and more on the group
access to the balance skill

Last night for example, epic DQ raid. Pure cleric w/o evasion died about 6x due to blades. I save on 2s and 3s, require 0 healing, and dont have to move to avoid spells, just sit there and laugh and rez up those who cant.

Mellkor
05-11-2010, 10:39 AM
epic dq, enter the kobold, SoS, are a few off the top of my head that evasion significantly increases survivability.
I dont think it "significantly" increases it, but it is helpful in these quests only, in my experience, but its not that dang good to justify getting evasion just for a few quests over a pure FvS.

I know I wouldn't give up evasion on my FVS's builds, its just too dang good.
I would, on a FvS.

Mass heal is nice/great, but with devotion items, the quicker, smaller ones are just as effective, and alot faster, for abit more sp(40). They are also less prone to cause lag deaths in raids.
This has not been my experience. Nothing is more efficient than mass heal, IMO. period. Learn to use it! Causes more lag deaths? pure BS.

Spell pentration and offensive casting I leave to the arcanes, I personally feel all or most of a divine casters spell points should be aimed towards healing. OMG this may work for you, but this is such a narrow-minded view that there is no point debating you on this.
Theres a hate on battle clerics, but at least they use their mana for group heals, offensive casting just takes it away. Honestly not surprised theres no backlash on the evocation healer builds in general.
Again, very narrow-minded view

All that leaves is the DR and a free heal spell. Evasion is personally more useful than DR. and scrolls are free(sp) for me.

So which would you rather take?

10/dr (easily replaced as a WF through items)
Not easily replacable. I assume you are talking about Docent of Defiance which cripples you AND does not work 100% of the time. A very bad thing IMO and not worth the tradeoff. Also most WF pures have 13 or 15 dr 100% of the time AND at full movement speed.
free 150ish point heals (if your sov host, the other capstones are pretty weak)
Spell penetration for you to use those spell points to not heal your group with
2 charisma which equates to about 50 sp
more lvl 8/9 spells (the best benefit, however most spells are not needed) kinda agree with this, but mass heal and true res are two you cant go without in end game, IMO

or

Evasion with top notch reflex
I have both builds mentioned here, and I dont miss evasion much at all.
better melee dps via 2 feats
My pure WF Lord of Blades out dps's my evasion TWF build by about 3 to 1 (both have decent gear)
better saves
only slightly better
stances
meh, ok on a evo focused build
better ac
AC does not matter at end game on FvS
less focusing on healing yourself and more on the group
access to the balance skill
I have access to the balance skill on my pure.

Last night for example, epic DQ raid. Pure cleric w/o evasion died about 6x due to blades. I save on 2s and 3s, require 0 healing, and dont have to move to avoid spells, just sit there and laugh and rez up those who cant.[/QUOTE]

Steveohio
05-11-2010, 03:02 PM
I wouldn't say my view is narrow minded on those things, its more just a personal preference in playstyles. Last thing I'd want to see is the group healer running out of mana because hes offensively casting and people need heals. the sp/dmg ratio comparing melee to casting, the melees generally win out everytime.

I just made a general obsrevation, because I, as well as other get lots of flack running "battle" clerics, when in fact I myself beleive they add more to the group than another healbot/evoc-healer build.

Its just personal preference. To say that either evasion or no evasion is totally much better, is falisy. Great thing about this game is the difference in playstyles and builds. Go for what you want.

Very interesting to see that your WF THF outdps'es the maxxed out TWF by that much of a margin.
I've never run a 2hf, mostly for the coolness/double effects that 2 weapons gives you, My next fvs will probably be Warforged.

Xithos
05-11-2010, 03:32 PM
I wouldn't say my view is narrow minded on those things, its more just a personal preference in playstyles. Last thing I'd want to see is the group healer running out of mana because hes offensively casting and people need heals. the sp/dmg ratio comparing melee to casting, the melees generally win out everytime.

I just made a general obsrevation, because I, as well as other get lots of flack running "battle" clerics, when in fact I myself beleive they add more to the group than another healbot/evoc-healer build.

Its just personal preference. To say that either evasion or no evasion is totally much better, is falisy. Great thing about this game is the difference in playstyles and builds. Go for what you want.

Very interesting to see that your WF THF outdps'es the maxxed out TWF by that much of a margin.
I've never run a 2hf, mostly for the coolness/double effects that 2 weapons gives you, My next fvs will probably be Warforged.

I would love to see some numbers behind how a THF beats a TWF 3 to 1 on Epic Laillat or Arraetrikos on Hard or Elite given equivalent gear :)

Mellkor
05-11-2010, 05:15 PM
I would love to see some numbers behind how a THF beats a TWF 3 to 1 on Epic Laillat or Arraetrikos on Hard or Elite given equivalent gear :)

You really cant have equivelent gear. Or even compare them given "equivelent gear". Two very different builds as far as equipment, feats and enhancements. A twf spec cant come close to an epic SoS weilding WF Lord of Blades in terms of dps because there isnt a twf friendly equivelent. At least currently. Until then, bow to the epic SoS weilding WF FvS! Another big difference between the builds is to hit. I can get to around +50 to hit first swing just by running Divine power, divine favor, and GH. twf FvS builds have a tough time just getting to around +40 (which isnt good enough to be effective in epics) to hit without useing a lot of short duration pots and/or outside buffs. If you want a breakdown on how I get there, click on the link in my sig.

Xithos
05-11-2010, 05:36 PM
You really cant have equivelent gear. Or even compare them given "equivelent gear". Two very different builds as far as equipment, feats and enhancements. A twf spec cant come close to an epic SoS weilding WF Lord of Blades in terms of dps because there isnt a twf friendly equivelent. At least currently. Until then, bow to the epic SoS weilding WF FvS! Another big difference between the builds is to hit. I can get to around +50 to hit first swing just by running Divine power, divine favor, and GH. twf FvS builds have a tough time just getting to around +40 (which isnt good enough to be effective in epics) to hit without useing a lot of short duration pots and/or outside buffs. If you want a breakdown on how I get there, click on the link in my sig.

My counter to that is how that epic SOS treats you against the DR of Suulomades on elite or other significant raid bosses that have DR :) You are correct that there is no one-handed equivalent for non DR mobs, but you are better off dualing weighted weapons for epic trash in most group setups. At some point I would imagine the Deathnip or the Mineral II will have an epic equivalent. My TWF Meleesoul is well above +40 tohit with my gear and buffs that I run with on a regular basis and once I find the enrgy to bring it up to a 36 pt. with passive past life of a fighter and eat my saved tomes will be even better. I checked out the link and I am still not seeing 3x the damage of a well-built and geared TWF. In addition, if you are really looking to pimp out your DPS at the sacrifice of evasion you cannot achieve the epic marilith chain / Litany combination on a WF.

Mellkor
05-11-2010, 05:44 PM
My counter to that is how that epic SOS treats you against the DR of Suulomades on elite or other significant raid bosses that have DR :) You are correct that there is no one-handed equivalent for non DR mobs, but you are better off dualing weighted weapons for epic trash in most group setups. At some point I would imagine the Deathnip or the Mineral II will have an epic equivalent. My TWF Meleesoul is well above +40 tohit with my gear and buffs that I run with on a regular basis and once I find the enrgy to bring it up to a 36 pt. with passive past life of a fighter and eat my saved tomes will be even better. I checked out the link and I am still not seeing 3x the damage of a well-built and geared TWF. In addition, if you are really looking to pimp out your DPS at the sacrifice of evasion you cannot achieve the epic marilith chain / Litany combination on a WF.

DR hurts me far less than a twf build when I am critting for 300. DR doesnt affect me much. What does kill the SoS is 100% fort mobs. luckily there arent too many of those. In a group set up in epics, we have found it very effective to use the epic sos in most cases. I switch to 5% weighted only rarely, such as in eOOB.

Xithos
05-11-2010, 08:00 PM
DR hurts me far less than a twf build when I am critting for 300. DR doesnt affect me much. What does kill the SoS is 100% fort mobs. luckily there arent too many of those. In a group set up in epics, we have found it very effective to use the epic sos in most cases. I switch to 5% weighted only rarely, such as in eOOB.

Against a monster that has epic DR or a form of unbypassable DR you are correct in saying that DR affects you much less than a TWF; however, the DR afffects you a lot more than you think if you run something like A Vision of Destruction on Elite. A pitfiend having 60 pts. of DR for both good and silver means you are essentially doing 0 damage per hit when you don't crit and still losing substantial damage on crits. Numbers taken from Thwarted/Monkey Archer thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=247379&highlight=DR+suulomades. I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense for a 20 WF FvS to use weighted nearly full time because you lose too much not having GTWF; those extra attacks make a huge difference in the average time to stun while my straight melee party members do the heavy lifting on the monster when its autocrit.

Anthios888
05-11-2010, 08:11 PM
You really cant have equivelent gear. Or even compare them given "equivelent gear". Two very different builds as far as equipment, feats and enhancements. A twf spec cant come close to an epic SoS weilding WF Lord of Blades in terms of dps because there isnt a twf friendly equivelent. At least currently. Until then, bow to the epic SoS weilding WF FvS! Another big difference between the builds is to hit. I can get to around +50 to hit first swing just by running Divine power, divine favor, and GH. twf FvS builds have a tough time just getting to around +40 (which isnt good enough to be effective in epics) to hit without useing a lot of short duration pots and/or outside buffs. If you want a breakdown on how I get there, click on the link in my sig.

That is actually not true at all. Look at a two weapon fighting battlecleric/fvs wearing khopeshes (lightning strike or chaosblades) or elf scimitars (lightning strike) and you will see strikingly equivalent DPS numbers.

This is a myth. SoS is terrific and everything, but unless you're struggling for to-hit, you're doing equal or less damage than a similarly-built two weapon fighting (and, don't forget, that to get the high SoS number you need to max out warforged power attack fore more - to-hit, and also including 'twitch' to even get close, which penalizes to-hit even further. Drop those benefits and the SoS is much further behind). This really points out the advantage two weapon fighting had going into epic. The fact that SoS finally brings them to nearly identical DPS numbers is a great boon for those WF FVS.

What sucks for SoS is that your second-best weapon, a mineral II greatsword, is significantly less dps than almost any two weapon fighting alternative out there.

Don't take my word for it; go add it up. I loves my warforges, but let's be realistic about the outcomes.

Mellkor
05-12-2010, 06:55 AM
That is actually not true at all. Look at a two weapon fighting battlecleric/fvs wearing khopeshes (lightning strike or chaosblades) or elf scimitars (lightning strike) and you will see strikingly equivalent DPS numbers.

This is a myth. SoS is terrific and everything, but unless you're struggling for to-hit, you're doing equal or less damage than a similarly-built two weapon fighting (and, don't forget, that to get the high SoS number you need to max out warforged power attack fore more - to-hit, and also including 'twitch' to even get close, which penalizes to-hit even further. Drop those benefits and the SoS is much further behind). This really points out the advantage two weapon fighting had going into epic. The fact that SoS finally brings them to nearly identical DPS numbers is a great boon for those WF FVS.

What sucks for SoS is that your second-best weapon, a mineral II greatsword, is significantly less dps than almost any two weapon fighting alternative out there.

Don't take my word for it; go add it up. I loves my warforges, but let's be realistic about the outcomes.


Have you played both into end game? I have, and stand by what I have said. You can crunch numbers all you want, and those numbers can be manipulated in all kinds of ways to favor whatever viewpoint you want. Thats statistical analysis for ya. I base my comments on real game experience fighting real mobs. My WF Lord of Blades with that epic SoS if far more effective in combat than my TWF divine ever could be. AND he is a better healer because he is not nearly as feat startved as a twf build. The only time my TWF build comes close is against mobs that have high (40+) DR AND are vulnerable to stat damage. In almost every other case, the former wins out, DPS wise.


As for to-hit. I hit most mobs in the game any difficulty on a 2 with PA on, running just divine favor, divine power, and GH. For things I dont hit on a say a 4 I destruct them or turn off PA (very rare I have to do this). Cant really say that for my, or anyone TWF build. you CAN get there with a TWF build, BUT you have to rely on having a bard, and/or too many short duration and/or expensive pots to get there, which become too much of a PIA to manage, IMO. You then spend too much time managing too many buffs as well as healing, etc.

Anthios888
05-12-2010, 08:01 AM
Have you played both into end game? I have, and stand by what I have said. You can crunch numbers all you want, and those numbers can be manipulated in all kinds of ways to favor whatever viewpoint you want. Thats statistical analysis for ya. I base my comments on real game experience fighting real mobs. My WF Lord of Blades with that epic SoS if far more effective in combat than my TWF divine ever could be. AND he is a better healer because he is not nearly as feat startved as a twf build. The only time my TWF build comes close is against mobs that have high (40+) DR AND are vulnerable to stat damage. In almost every other case, the former wins out, DPS wise.


As for to-hit. I hit most mobs in the game any difficulty on a 2 with PA on, running just divine favor, divine power, and GH. For things I dont hit on a say a 4 I destruct them or turn off PA (very rare I have to do this). Cant really say that for my, or anyone TWF build. you CAN get there with a TWF build, BUT you have to rely on having a bard, and/or too many short duration and/or expensive pots to get there, which become too much of a PIA to manage, IMO. You then spend too much time managing too many buffs as well as healing, etc.

Actually, yes. I have played both two handed fighting and two weapon fighting battleclerics far into endgame.

How do you have more feats? Did you skip greater two handed fighting? Do you realize what a substantial DPS gain this is for two-handed builds? Are you not twitching to fight?

This isn't some crazy math manipulation, man. I have compared lots of actual characters' stats on my server and found that the warforged fvs in the best light just barely catches up to the two weapon in average light. This is assuming khopesh, rapier, or scimitar, of course, which tend to be the best two weapon fighting options. I was disappointed, as I was rerolling my longtime greataxe dwarven battlecleric into a warforged favored soul upon getting the epic SoS ingredients. The difference (or lack thereof) between the two styles was as shocking to me, and actually caused me to change my mind.

Now, I don't know what kind of two weapon fighting clerics you have on your server that you're comparing yourself to. A great character will always meet dozens of wannabes. I'm sure your character is fantastic and everything, but you should really consider what else is out there. SoS is a good weapon, but two handed fighting started off at a major dps disadvantage to begin with because of the slow rate of attack.

I will try to dig up the spreadsheets and present an analysis for you, but I don't have a lot of time with my job right now.

Gercho
05-12-2010, 08:36 AM
Actually yes, he skips all the THF feats...

Mellkor
05-12-2010, 08:49 AM
Actually yes, he skips all the THF feats...

I tried GTHF and found it to be very lackluster for the 3 feats you have to spend to get it. It is certainly not a substansial DPS gain on a divine THF build. It maybe triples your splash damage and does nothing for the mob you have targeted, and thats about it. Not worth it at all on a divine build. FAR too many other feats are more important.

Mellkor
05-12-2010, 08:59 AM
Actually, yes. I have played both two handed fighting and two weapon fighting battleclerics far into endgame.


This isn't some crazy math manipulation, man. I have compared lots of actual characters' stats on my server and found that the warforged fvs in the best light just barely catches up to the two weapon in average light. This is assuming khopesh, rapier, or scimitar, of course, which tend to be the best two weapon fighting options.

I guess we are each of us polarized at opposite ends :)

Too bad we arent on the same server :D Would love to group with you to see how it goes.

Comparing stats is not a good way to come to this conclusion. LOL. Too many other factors come into play besides stats. I have encountered far too many DIVINE TWF builds that barely fight thier way out of a paper bag. OR the ones that are somewhat decent cant really heal a party very well in raids or epics and even then, still really dont do decent enough dps to replace a pure DPSer. There are much better class options for high DPS TWF. TWF Divine builds are really mediocre in comparison.

Anthios888
05-12-2010, 09:05 AM
Actually yes, he skips all the THF feats...

Let me give more background. I found one of my notepads when I was deciding on my own build.

Please keep in mind that the following numbers are specific to my build, 18 fvs / 1 ftr / 1 barbarian, when I was comparing between warforged and human with khopeshes. I have the advantage of fighter haste boost (not included) & barbarian power attack (included). When I was in favor of rerolling to warforged, I calculated 290 DPS for khopeshes and for 305 for SoS, in the most ideal DPS situations (trash mobs with no fortification or DR).

The warforged was using epic bloodstone, the ravager set (which the previous poster does not use), and greater two handed fighting. Ravager set adds 7 damager per swing, including on every glancing blow. It had an extra damage from starting with 18 strength instead of melkor's 16, and it also had that power attack enhancement. The 305 number was also calculated using twitch fighting. Subtracting the difference for 7 damage per swing for ravager set and greater two handed fighting, the warforged is far behind the khopesh build. Twitch brings it even further behind. It needed those three elements to compete.

Here's how I quantified greater two handed fighting for my build, Rocka, who was using greataxes and had either 38 or 40 strength (I can't recall). It came down to about 10% DPS -- equivalent to Tempest. Skipping tempest is something a ranger should think twice about, and generally non-tempest rangers do not consider themselves to be in the top tier of ranger DPS.

Since I do not have the calculator on this computer, I cannot give you a definite number for the abovementioned warforged's DPS. I hope this gives you some illustration of what I was talking about.

For reference, the khopesh build had the ability to use marilith chain, because it is a human, which opened up the trinket slot for litany of the dead (read: more to-hit). I am 90% sure it was using knost's set instead of ravager set to help fit things in. Also please note that for this particular build, lightning II khopeshes outdamages chaosblade just slightly on trash mobs (more or less comparable). On classes that have more dps to start with, the chaosblade tends to take the lead over both SOS and Lightning II.

In my prior calculations, I found that elf scimitars were nearly identical to khopesh assuming identical weapons (really surprised me!).

For me, it came down to the versatility. When the warforged wasn't wearing SoS, its DPS dropped by at least a quarter. I like the ability to wearing a weighted weapon in the offhand, of having a better selection of weaponry (wanted to use my earthgrab picks, smiting scimitars, etc etc). That works for me. Warforged works for many others, and it works quite well. They're one of the most accessible, playable builds out there.

What's really difficult about this discusussion is that it illustrates the problem with this thread. Some people are willing to get the "greater" two handed or two weapon fighting feats (and imp crit) by splashing on their favored souls. They may get evasion or other perks for doing so. Those who stay pure have to work with fewer feats but get a fantastic capstone. Both are great options! But, everything is situational. I feel it's wrong to overstate the DPS on a pure build that cannot access the extras, and at the same time, to minimize the loss of DR on those that can't. DDO has trade offs and this is exactly what makes building so personalized and rewarding.

edit - 90 DPS on the wf fvs came just from glancing blows, assuming single target.

Anthios888
05-12-2010, 09:06 AM
Comparing stats is not a good way to come to this conclusion. LOL. Too many other factors come into play besides stats. I have encountered far too many DIVINE TWF builds that barely fight thier way out of a paper bag. OR the ones that are somewhat decent cant really heal a party very well in raids or epics and even then, still really dont do decent enough dps to replace a pure DPSer. There are much better class options for high DPS TWF. TWF Divine builds are really mediocre in comparison.

Now you're just making opinions. There are some really fantastic two weapon fighting builds out there that have every capability your build has. Look around a little more.

Gercho
05-12-2010, 10:19 AM
Anthios, i think dps calculations have some value, but what about the to hit? i guess your calculations were assuming you hit with 2 on both chars, now a THF will have +4 to hit from eSOS -3 from power attack (-4 in your case) and the human twf will have -4 to hit from twf (i doubt you have otwf), so in the end the THF will have +4 or +5 to hit (+6 if you are not using epic weapons), is that makes you miss 10% of your attacks (besides the 1) then it makes a big difference.

On a side note, obviously mellkor doesnt cares about paper calculations, so you wont convince him using them :D

In the end, i still think there are no absolutes, and its a good thing, i lean for the mellkor build cause it seems easier to equip than the twf equivalent (eSOS seems much easier to get that just one epic chaosblade, or the epic marilith chain) and allows me to be pure FVS.

Mellkor
05-12-2010, 10:35 AM
Let me give more background. I found one of my notepads when I was deciding on my own build.

Please keep in mind that the following numbers are specific to my build, 18 fvs / 1 ftr / 1 barbarian, when I was comparing between warforged and human with khopeshes. I have the advantage of fighter haste boost (not included) & barbarian power attack (included). When I was in favor of rerolling to warforged, I calculated 290 DPS for khopeshes and for 305 for SoS, in the most ideal DPS situations (trash mobs with no fortification or DR).



So it looks like to me the SoS is better, by your own numbers. an epic SoS would be even better. Also I am running other equipment and abilities you havent considered, such as Shintao set, (red dragon armor soon to be aquired) to name a few (I realize this is for your build) and all the WF PA enhancements,. And against DR mobs the THF build is even better since DR affects a lower percentage of damage per swing on the THF. Even by your own numbers I dont see how TWF is better, let alone "far behind" as you seem to claim. Your numbers seem to show that the THF is slightly better vs non DR mobs. THF only pulls ahead more VS DR mobs from there....

Anthios888
05-12-2010, 12:43 PM
So it looks like to me the SoS is better, by your own numbers. an epic SoS would be even better. Also I am running other equipment and abilities you havent considered, such as Shintao set, (red dragon armor soon to be aquired) to name a few (I realize this is for your build) and all the WF PA enhancements,. And against DR mobs the THF build is even better since DR affects a lower percentage of damage per swing on the THF. Even by your own numbers I dont see how TWF is better, let alone "far behind" as you seem to claim. Your numbers seem to show that the THF is slightly better vs non DR mobs. THF only pulls ahead more VS DR mobs from there....

Sorry, no. My numbers were already including epic SoS. I can't remember if I included Shintao set -- I think I did, because I have the set on my build. It's possible I did not, as torc is standard for builds like this. It's one of those things that helps certain builds.

I'm not trying to attack -your build-. I am talking about the differences and advantages each style has. Your statements that you do 3x as much DPS are simply false, and while I appreciate the enthusiasm you have for your warforged, I think you're making a very misleading case. What you're not understanding is that a two weapon fighting build -can bypass the dr- where a two-handed fighting build can only do so by sacrificing a huge amount of damage. Pointing to crit numbers without taking into consideration that you're losing 15 or more damage every single swing is just betraying your lack of understanding.

By losing greater two handed fighting, not using the ravager set, not twitching, and with the other discrepancies I mentioned, I would estimate your DPS somewhere between 200 and 250. Remember that 80 of that 305 DPS was from glancing blows on the main target -- much of which came from the greater two handed fighting. The 305 is on a really top end, geared toon twitching its head off, If I get a break, I'll be happy to calculate your toon's DPS for you, but I'm not sure you want to hear the answer.

Anthios888
05-12-2010, 12:44 PM
Anthios, i think dps calculations have some value, but what about the to hit? i guess your calculations were assuming you hit with 2 on both chars, now a THF will have +4 to hit from eSOS -3 from power attack (-4 in your case) and the human twf will have -4 to hit from twf (i doubt you have otwf), so in the end the THF will have +4 or +5 to hit (+6 if you are not using epic weapons), is that makes you miss 10% of your attacks (besides the 1) then it makes a big difference.

On a side note, obviously mellkor doesnt cares about paper calculations, so you wont convince him using them :D

In the end, i still think there are no absolutes, and its a good thing, i lean for the mellkor build cause it seems easier to equip than the twf equivalent (eSOS seems much easier to get that just one epic chaosblade, or the epic marilith chain) and allows me to be pure FVS.

What a well-reasoned post. That's exactly how I feel about it. I chose the two weapon version for myself for reasons of versatility, but I might even make the warforged just to enjoy the DR aspect of favored souls at the expense of DPS.

Here is a comparison for you to see the to-hit differences between the "standard" builds we're talking about. As you can see, all are very viable (and as viable as each other).

Attack Roll (Level 20 Warforged Lord of Blades Favored Soul)
20 Base Attack Bonus
14 STR modifier (18 base + 5 levels + 2 tome + 6 ravager ring + 3 exceptional + 2 yugo + 2 rage = 38)
4 Spectral Gloves epic
3 Divine Favor
10 Sword of Shadows
1 Child of the Lord of Blades
4 Greater Heroism
1 Haste
5 Backstabbing +5
-8 power attack
-4 twitch fighting
-----------
50 to-hit

Attack Roll (Level 20 Khopeshes - Cleric or Favored Soul + 2 yugo + 2 rage)
20 Base Attack Bonus
15 STR modifier (18 base + 5 levels +2 tome + 1 litany + 1 human + 6 ring + 3 exceptional + 2 yugo + 2 rage = 40)
4 Spectral Gloves epic
3 Divine Favor
6 Chaosblade
1 Litany of the Dead
4 Greater Heroism
1 Haste
5 Backstabbing +5
-4 two weapon fighting without oversized
-5 power attack
-----------
50 to-hit


Attack Roll (Level 20 Elf Valenar Favored Soul)
20 Base Attack Bonus
15 STR modifier (18 base + 5 levels + 2 tome + 1 litany + 7 epic item + 3 exceptional + 2 yugo + 2 rage = 40)
4 Spectral Gloves epic
3 Divine Favor
5 Greensteel Lightning II scimitar
1 Child of the Elf Scimitar Dude
1 Litany of the Dead
4 Greater Heroism
1 Haste
5 Backstabbing +5
2 Valenar enhancements
-4 two weapon fighting without oversized
-5 power attack
-----------
52 to-hit


These seem to be reasonable to-hit numbers across the board for a healer self-buffed.


Also.. please keep in mind

Anyone with proficiency can use epic SoS for these dire to-hit situations we're all so concerned about. I will have an epic SoS on my khopesh favored soul as soon as I hit level 20 again. If the build needs that extra to-hit (+4 from 2wf, +4 for +10 weapon), it's there.
Things like shintao set (which I keep around as a swap for hard-to-hit situations) would apply to all builds but are kind of situational. Good to keep in mind if you need to boost your hitting.
Backstabbing is never a guarantee, but it benefits all builds and should be included in a divine melee's gear. Two weapon fighting is disproportionately advantaged.
Effect procs like tempest set and ravager set benefit two weapon fighting and two-handed fighting equally as they apply to glancing blows


P.S. -- Tou don't need epic chaosblades, or any epic gear to hit similar DPS on a favored soul. Regular old Marilith chain at seeker 6 is a great item. Lightning II khopeshes or scimitars are about equivalent. Just subtract -1 to-hit. For a greatsword, there is obviously much wider difference between epic and greensteel.

Gercho
05-12-2010, 01:21 PM
well, i was missing the -4 to hit from twitching...

Mellkor
05-12-2010, 02:19 PM
These DPS calculations seems too much like vodoo to me. I am basing my observations on actual practice, not theory. These DPS calculators have proven themselves to be hogwash in my experience useing them. People focus way too much on them and there are too many factors to consider, invariably some get left out. I am not sure what you mean by you bypassing DR and I cannot. if a mob has dr 15 as in your example, it is only a small % of my total dam output that it is almost insignificant, so I have no need to use a DR bypassing weapon. In the case of TWF it is a significant factor because that 15 dr IS a significant chunk of your damage per hit. You dont seem to understand this yourself! Who cares about 15 dr when a normal hit is 80 or so and a crit is 300 or so. Also when you use a weapon to bypass DR you end up doing less dps than your best weapon vs a fully vulneable mob. SO again your theoretical numbers mean squat in those cases.

Anthios888
05-12-2010, 04:48 PM
it Is Only A Small % Of My Total Dam Output That It Is Almost Insignificant, So I Have No Need To Use A Dr Bypassing Weapon. .

Lol.

Anthios888
05-12-2010, 04:59 PM
Back to the original topic. My point is that the people who are getting evasion are losing out on the capstone. I love the capstone. It's super uber. In terms of sole survivability, I think OP nick is right as always that it helps you more universally than evasion.

But the feats don't fit in on many pure builds. Look at the corners Mellkor has had to cut to achieve his goals on a warforged favored soul.

Those who are doing 18 favored soul / 2 monk (or similar) are not only getting evasion, but they're getting two feats and some new enhancements and proficiencies. Evasion is a nice second best to DR / 10. Those two feats translate into a lot of DPS whether you are talking about greater two weapon fighting or greater two handed fighting.

On your standard warforged favored soul (I am using Melkor as an example, because he has a very typical and effective build), the additional damage difference from glancing blows using the feats is nearly 10% increase in total DPS. It's almost like a ranger going without tempest.

Here's an example of how the attention to details can change DPS around. Whether you believe in calculators or not, every player can do the basic math to see that when you're adding consistent damage sources, you're going to do more damage per second.

You don't have to believe my numbers. Just think about how adding almost 30% attack speed would increase your effectiveness. Think about how a ravager set, which adds 7 damage (2d6) to every glancing blow and attack, would increase your damage. Think about how having 75% of your attacks have glancing blows and having those glancing blows be more potent would increase your damage.

Melkor's Favored Soul - 248 DPS
Melkor's Favored Soul against DR - 162 DPS


16 power attack + 13 strength modifier +2 favored soul feat + 2 favored soul enhancements + 2 shintao monk set bonus + 10 weapon (Epic Sword of Shadows) + 3 divine favor +8 bard song = + 56 damage
Backstabbing from Tharne's Goggles 50% of the time
Seeker 6
Force ritual on Epic SoS
No twitch; 102 attacks / minute
No Two Handed Fighting feats; Glancing Blows on 50% of attacks with no additional glancing blow damage
0% fort, 0 DR opponent in first number
DR / 15 and 25% fortification in second number


Look at the possible upgrades you could make on your own platform:

Melee-specced Warforged Favored Soul - 356 DPS
Melee-specced Warforged Favored Soul against DR - 244 DPS


16 power attack + 15 strength modifier +2 favored soul feat + 2 favored soul enhancements + 2 shintao monk set bonus + 10 weapon (Epic Sword of Shadows) + 3 divine favor +8 bard song = + 58 damage
Backstabbing from Tharne's Goggles 50% of the time
Seeker 8
Ravager set -- 2d6 on every attack and glancing blow
Force ritual on Epic SoS
Twitch; 130 attacks / minute (more possible with practice - Shade says 138)
Greater Two Handed Fighting feats; Glancing Blows on 50% of attacks (reduced because of twitch) with additional glancing blow damage
0% fort, 0 DR opponent in first number
DR / 15 and 25% fortification in second number


This is a very generous amount of DR and fortification to consider. I am trying to keep this build in the most favorable situation possible. Much more DR or fortification and the character would need to switch to a mineral II to overcome the loss of dps from DR.

The second setup does almost 144% the DPS of the first build. The people who choose to splash for feats are not getting "nothing" in return.

It's not just "evasion builds" vs. "non evasion builds". There's a lot more to it. So many people are looking at a /2 monk splash and all they can think of is an ac / finesse build -- not a true strength build. The extra feats allow for the same metamagics while still giving some survivability in the form of evasion.

Build variety is a good thing! Play what you enjoy. It's just bad form to discount every other option out there, and tends to keep you from being your best .

Gunga
05-12-2010, 05:06 PM
It's just bad form to discount every other option out there, and tends to keep you from being your best .

You're smart.

Anthios888
05-12-2010, 05:16 PM
You're smart.

You're cool. Will you be my Valentine?!

aristarchus1000
05-12-2010, 05:51 PM
Fantastic summary by Anthios888, and coincides with my damage calculations (apparantly I need to spread around rep). By the way, whether you believe in dps calculators or not, the strength based Elf build (I use Gratch's since he has a long running post in this forum) had around 250 dps as well, and that is using Min2s. Much easier to acquire compared to the eSOS. Better weapons than Min2's are also available on a situational basis.

(for what it's worth, I have some doubts on dps calculators, but they do represent raid boss/portal dps pretty well, since things like reach and glancing don't really apply. Against trash, I actually think TWF is better because utility of vorpals/disruptors/weighted)

My WF FvS is pretty much on hold. The DR is certainly nice, but my Elf 18/2 generally completes the same quest using the same methods 50-75% faster. Damage is better, plus the utility of using double vorpals, disruptors, or greater banes, etc speeds things up considerably. It sometimes requires extra heal scrolls, but often not since the healing is less effecting on the WF. (it takes me 15 minutes to farm up enough gold for 100 heal scrolls. the cost is trivial either way). Sometimes it requires some more skill, but the same can be argued for playing without Evasion.

Neither the DR or Evasion is required in any build (or else all other classes other pure FvS are gimp), but you need to gear up properly if you don't have it. For me, that's a Bloodrage Symbiont for 5 DR (or a warchanter), and 4 clickies from shroud T2 weapons. It's not as good as static DR, but it's pretty darn close most of the time. I think with Earthen Guard DT robes (if I ever get it) I'll have all the DR I want.

Monk 2 is choice, and very reasonable one, with pros and cons. The main thing I miss by not going pure is lack of True Rez, and i'm also missing Mass Death Ward. This is annoying, but not game breaking, imo. At least not any more game breaking than not having evasion.

Neither is gimp, let's not kid ourselves. Let's just enjoy the fact that the FvS is a very strong character class and both the pure and 2 monk options are perfectly viable. I have personally found that I have to backup or raise the pure build cleric/fvs on raids because they tend to drop dead in raids. I'm sure people on this thread are better players, so I'm not judging the build. Still, I'm definitely enjoying my raid survivability and my character, and I encourage everyone to do the same without calling each other names.

AylinIsAwesome
05-12-2010, 06:46 PM
For myself, I prefer pure FvS because I like having 3 of each level 8 and level 9 spells, and the DR is nice.

But I also recognize the benefits of taking a Monk splash, and I don't think it's gimp. It's just that I like the pure ones better myself.

What does irk me though, is claiming that one type of FvS is someone claiming that a FvS is gimp because that person would rather play a different kind of soul.

Xithos
05-12-2010, 06:48 PM
These DPS calculations seems too much like vodoo to me. I am basing my observations on actual practice, not theory. These DPS calculators have proven themselves to be hogwash in my experience useing them. People focus way too much on them and there are too many factors to consider, invariably some get left out. I am not sure what you mean by you bypassing DR and I cannot. if a mob has dr 15 as in your example, it is only a small % of my total dam output that it is almost insignificant, so I have no need to use a DR bypassing weapon. In the case of TWF it is a significant factor because that 15 dr IS a significant chunk of your damage per hit. You dont seem to understand this yourself! Who cares about 15 dr when a normal hit is 80 or so and a crit is 300 or so. Also when you use a weapon to bypass DR you end up doing less dps than your best weapon vs a fully vulneable mob. SO again your theoretical numbers mean squat in those cases.

The point being made is that the epic Sword of Shadows although an amazing weapon is not even close to being the best once you start cranking up the difficulty on what you are running. The 15 DR you mention is not a big deal, but once you start getting into DR 30 and DR 60 territory the epic SoS is not a good choice and you should use something else; Anthios understands this because DPS calculations are not complete "Voodoo". Furthermore, a TWF FvS can use the Sword of Shadows on mobs almost as effectively as a WF FvS because of the lack of Two-handed Fighting feats on the WF variants. If you have the energy you can play around with some numbers using A_O's DPS calc found here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2354192&posted=1#post2354192 or make your own. Finally, TWF are not limited to using their best DR bypasser on trash mobs. I have Lightning Strike Khopeshes for non-DR and also have a radiance Scimitar I use from time to time.

Mellkor
05-12-2010, 07:07 PM
Well noone has resorted to name calling. LOL. nothing wrong with a good debate.

Still, I can do things on my WF Favored soul that my TWF or any TWF divine build I have grouped with cant do, such as tank sulu in von or horoth in TOD because he hits so much harder with that epic SoS.

To each his own.

Mellkor
05-12-2010, 07:13 PM
Back to the original topic. My point is that the people who are getting evasion are losing out on the capstone. I love the capstone. It's super uber. In terms of sole survivability, I think OP nick is right as always that it helps you more universally than evasion.

But the feats don't fit in on many pure builds. Look at the corners Mellkor has had to cut to achieve his goals on a warforged favored soul.

Those who are doing 18 favored soul / 2 monk (or similar) are not only getting evasion, but they're getting two feats and some new enhancements and proficiencies. Evasion is a nice second best to DR / 10. Those two feats translate into a lot of DPS whether you are talking about greater two weapon fighting or greater two handed fighting.

On your standard warforged favored soul (I am using Melkor as an example, because he has a very typical and effective build), the additional damage difference from glancing blows using the feats is nearly 10% increase in total DPS. It's almost like a ranger going without tempest.

Here's an example of how the attention to details can change DPS around. Whether you believe in calculators or not, every player can do the basic math to see that when you're adding consistent damage sources, you're going to do more damage per second.

You don't have to believe my numbers. Just think about how adding almost 30% attack speed would increase your effectiveness. Think about how a ravager set, which adds 7 damage (2d6) to every glancing blow and attack, would increase your damage. Think about how having 75% of your attacks have glancing blows and having those glancing blows be more potent would increase your damage.

Melkor's Favored Soul - 248 DPS
Melkor's Favored Soul against DR - 162 DPS


16 power attack + 13 strength modifier +2 favored soul feat + 2 favored soul enhancements + 2 shintao monk set bonus + 10 weapon (Epic Sword of Shadows) + 3 divine favor +8 bard song = + 56 damage
Backstabbing from Tharne's Goggles 50% of the time
Seeker 6
Force ritual on Epic SoS
No twitch; 102 attacks / minute
No Two Handed Fighting feats; Glancing Blows on 50% of attacks with no additional glancing blow damage
0% fort, 0 DR opponent in first number
DR / 15 and 25% fortification in second number


Look at the possible upgrades you could make on your own platform:

Melee-specced Warforged Favored Soul - 356 DPS
Melee-specced Warforged Favored Soul against DR - 244 DPS


16 power attack + 15 strength modifier +2 favored soul feat + 2 favored soul enhancements + 2 shintao monk set bonus + 10 weapon (Epic Sword of Shadows) + 3 divine favor +8 bard song = + 58 damage
Backstabbing from Tharne's Goggles 50% of the time
Seeker 8
Ravager set -- 2d6 on every attack and glancing blow
Force ritual on Epic SoS
Twitch; 130 attacks / minute (more possible with practice - Shade says 138)
Greater Two Handed Fighting feats; Glancing Blows on 50% of attacks (reduced because of twitch) with additional glancing blow damage
0% fort, 0 DR opponent in first number
DR / 15 and 25% fortification in second number


This is a very generous amount of DR and fortification to consider. I am trying to keep this build in the most favorable situation possible. Much more DR or fortification and the character would need to switch to a mineral II to overcome the loss of dps from DR.

The second setup does almost 144% the DPS of the first build. The people who choose to splash for feats are not getting "nothing" in return.

It's not just "evasion builds" vs. "non evasion builds". There's a lot more to it. So many people are looking at a /2 monk splash and all they can think of is an ac / finesse build -- not a true strength build. The extra feats allow for the same metamagics while still giving some survivability in the form of evasion.

Build variety is a good thing! Play what you enjoy. It's just bad form to discount every other option out there, and tends to keep you from being your best .

The only significant difference here, really is twitch. The ravenger set, GTWF, and seeker 8 are relatively minor.

Steveohio
05-12-2010, 07:54 PM
How does having your weapon hit harder in any way effect your tanking ability?

Also, debating dps #'s based on teh biggah hits isn't exactly scientific and years of parsing other games dps will generally(not always)tell you that more swings = more dps.

Adding in the on-hit effects such as vorpal also gives a non-dps means of killing at roughly 2x the probability, 8 attacks vs 4. A pure soul that wants all the healing feats just cannot get all the melee feats to boot, thats where the monk splash matters + the evasion and other stuff. Otherwise we would see alot more 2rogue/18fvs, but theres roughly 25x more monk splashes out there than rogue.

Again its a matter of preference.

Mellkor
05-12-2010, 08:07 PM
How does having your weapon hit harder in any way effect your tanking ability?

Also, debating dps #'s based on teh biggah hits isn't exactly scientific and years of parsing other games dps will generally(not always)tell you that more swings = more dps.

Adding in the on-hit effects such as vorpal also gives a non-dps means of killing at roughly 2x the probability, 8 attacks vs 4. A pure soul that wants all the healing feats just cannot get all the melee feats to boot, thats where the monk splash matters + the evasion and other stuff. Otherwise we would see alot more 2rogue/18fvs, but theres roughly 25x more monk splashes out there than rogue.

Again its a matter of preference.


I epics vorpals dont work, or most on hit effects for that matter. With a lot of mobs with DR in epics, hitting hard with a weapon matters the harder you hit, the less impact DR has, its that simple. As for more damage per swing affecting tanking ability???????!! I think that is self evident. LOL

Steveohio
05-12-2010, 08:16 PM
Really, so you take less incoming damage per hit by doing more outgoing damage per hit?
Hows that work for you?

Is this like the fuzzy math where you do 3x the dps of a twf with no thf feats?

Your correct on the bigger hits bypass DR better and the epic vorpal thing, but you do have to actually do quests before you can stoll into epic. Albeit we all aim for the end game with builds, there is other content besides epic.

Mellkor
05-12-2010, 08:27 PM
yep, I do, because the mob is dead faster. less incoming damage.

Steveohio
05-12-2010, 10:25 PM
Ah ok got it.

Stupid shield blocking turtles, next time I'll just tell them to whip out the weapons and hit things because the faster things die the better they are as tanks?

Stupid Stalwart Defenders shoulda went Kensai!

Also you do realize when you say the ravager set, +2 more seeker, and GTHF aren't signifcant, but they add more to your damage output than the Lord of the Blades bonuses do?

356 compared to 248 is pretty significant, I know my calculator is just some voodoo device thats probably lieing to me, but thats roughly 50% more.

Anthios888
05-12-2010, 10:30 PM
Ah ok got it.

Stupid shield blocking turtles, next time I'll just tell them to whip out the weapons and hit things because the faster things die the better they are as tanks?

Stupid Stalwart Defenders shoulda went Kensai!

Also you do realize when you say the ravager set, +2 more seeker, and GTHF aren't signifcant, but they add more to your damage output than the Lord of the Blades bonuses do?

356 compared to 248 is pretty significant, I know my calculator is just some voodoo device thats probably lieing to me, but thats roughly 50% more.

For him it's at least 35-40 DPS by just adding those items and feats. Something I'd sure think about.

Mellkor
05-12-2010, 11:44 PM
Ah ok got it.

Stupid shield blocking turtles, next time I'll just tell them to whip out the weapons and hit things because the faster things die the better they are as tanks?

Stupid Stalwart Defenders shoulda went Kensai!

Also you do realize when you say the ravager set, +2 more seeker, and GTHF aren't signifcant, but they add more to your damage output than the Lord of the Blades bonuses do?

356 compared to 248 is pretty significant, I know my calculator is just some voodoo device thats probably lieing to me, but thats roughly 50% more.


Firstly please reread what I said, you compleatly misunderstood. I will spell it out for you a second time. I said that they are not that significant RELATIVE to what twitch fighting adds to dps. next time read and understand before you spout off such vileness
and yes shield blocking turtles would be better tanks if they could actually hit things and damage them. I am sorry if the concept of things dying faster is better than letting them beat on you is incomprehensable to you. Nothing more I can say really.

As for your builds the way you are equiping yourselves and the feats you are taking, you gotta give up too much on the divine side, may as well be a ranger or barb or even a pally, it just takes too much away from the healing abilites to be really great at it.

Steveohio
05-13-2010, 07:33 AM
Have you ever looked at a monk splash divine? really?

Because they do have the ability to have all the same meta feats (empower healing, maximize, quicken, and empower[which you dont have]) as well as the full GTWF line, toughness and power attack. Imp crit isnt needed because we roll with min2's more than likely.

As well as all the same 4 mass cures, mass heal.

How or what exactly is too much being taken away from the divine side/healing here that we should just go with a ranger/barb/ftr/whatever that can't group heal?

Also we are pretty aware of what your saying that in regards to tanking; things dieing faster = better tank, however its wrong. Damage avoidance, mitigation, max HP, and threat is what makes a tank a tank. So in a way, sure your build, or any other pure WF FVS is SLIGHTLY a better tank than another pure fvs, and moreso a monk splash.

But no divine actually builds to be a tank, because unlike dps, those things don't stack relative to party size, you are designating that assignment to someone specialized in it. Anyone built to be a tank that isn't actively tanking is not optimal in ANY raid or group setting and you would be better served to just bring in someone that can do more dps.

Gercho
05-13-2010, 08:16 AM
Anthios, a couple questions, how do Ravager set works if you dont have the THF feats?
Do you have a link to share with a dps calculator? i have been toying with a fvs 16/fighter 2/monk 2 (or different variations) to be able to fit all the thf feats, obviously losing a lot on healing, but i would like to know how much dps i could get from that splash to see if i want to sacrifice the healing for it...

About the dps comparison, well, its a little unfair you include twitching in the second and not in the first, cause you can twitch with both builds, and if you dont like twitching you wont twitch with any of those, so its not really a build comparison but a build and style of play comparison.

Mellkor
05-13-2010, 09:17 AM
Have you ever looked at a monk splash divine? really?

Because they do have the ability to have all the same meta feats (empower healing, maximize, quicken, and empower[which you dont have]) as well as the full GTWF line, toughness and power attack. Imp crit isnt needed because we roll with min2's more than likely.

As well as all the same 4 mass cures, mass heal.

How or what exactly is too much being taken away from the divine side/healing here that we should just go with a ranger/barb/ftr/whatever that can't group heal?

Also we are pretty aware of what your saying that in regards to tanking; things dieing faster = better tank, however its wrong. Damage avoidance, mitigation, max HP, and threat is what makes a tank a tank. So in a way, sure your build, or any other pure WF FVS is SLIGHTLY a better tank than another pure fvs, and moreso a monk splash.

But no divine actually builds to be a tank, because unlike dps, those things don't stack relative to party size, you are designating that assignment to someone specialized in it. Anyone built to be a tank that isn't actively tanking is not optimal in ANY raid or group setting and you would be better served to just bring in someone that can do more dps.

No improved crit? wow, now thats a major DPS boon in my favor, that is convienently also factored in on your DPS arguments/calculations. So no improved crit when, as you say, you often use various non min II weapons will make decent dent in your DPS numbers as calculated above.

I have played and do play divine/monk splashes, and they are a real advantage with evasion over pure in about 3 quests. I deleted the FvS splash builds, and kept the cleric splash builds. I think it works great and adds a lot of advantages with almost no disadvantages on a human caster focused cleric. However there is no way I could trade 5 or 6 feats to make room for the combat feats you mention without some major sacrifes in healing ability even after sacrificing the casting related feats. Having the limitation of only one lev 9 spell slot is reason enough to not even consider a /2 splash on FvS, IMO. Plus you have sacrifice some of the best upper level spells and buffs for the party. Remove any 1 spell from my pure FvS spell list, and I would really miss it let alone losing a few more than that with a /2 splash. My primary focus is to be a first a healer/buffer, secondly DPS, I sacrifice nothing in healing and buffing ability and still do as good a job healing as any cleric (better really, but only because I have around 500 more SP than the typical lev 20 cleric), while also doing nearly as good a job at DPS as possible with a divine character. These splash FvS builds always seem to strive to be DPS focused first, healing second. Which is fine for some folks, but I have seen (and experienced it first hand) these /2 FvS builds struggle too much in epics and end game raids compared to pures for me to endorse FvS splash builds for endgame use. If you don't care about end game they may be ok, but certainly not for me having played both, I choose the Pure FvS to take to the bank, every time. The pure WF FvS fills my character concept I have for it far better than a /2 FvS splash ever could.


as for this comment; Damage avoidance, mitigation, max HP, and threat.....makes a tank a tank. I disagree with this. There is no point to turtling up and getting pounded on when in most cases you can accompish the same thing and more with a dps build by kiting and swinging away at the same time. The best defense is a strong offense. Personally, the fastest quest times and easiest to finish have always been done when I quest with those who embrace this philosophy. The only time I turtle up is when I need SP or am protecting a caster (which by the way I have almost the best DR you can get while shield blocking without even trying). They may be very few times where turtling is an advantage, but it is not often enough to focus a build for that when those situations are easily dealt with via other methods.

Another big issue I had with the /2 FvS build was lack of extend meta feat. Spent too much time refreshing buffs/pots. (that should really be factored into those DPS numbers, lol as well as time for self healing, party healing, etc) (yet another reason to put little faith into DPS calculators for non DPS builds). With extend those 4+ min buffs usually lasted long enough to not have to refresh during battles. The ~2 min versions often didnt last long enough to persist through battles, especially in end game. My guy does fine with just Divine power and divine favor and GH.

Anthios888
05-13-2010, 01:03 PM
Anthios, a couple questions, how do Ravager set works if you dont have the THF feats?
Do you have a link to share with a dps calculator? i have been toying with a fvs 16/fighter 2/monk 2 (or different variations) to be able to fit all the thf feats, obviously losing a lot on healing, but i would like to know how much dps i could get from that splash to see if i want to sacrifice the healing for it...

About the dps comparison, well, its a little unfair you include twitching in the second and not in the first, cause you can twitch with both builds, and if you dont like twitching you wont twitch with any of those, so its not really a build comparison but a build and style of play comparison.

DPS Calculator
I do not really have a link to share the DPS calculator, but if you would like to PM me, I can try to e-mail it to you. The calculator was designed by Jaerlach (adapted over time from an old one, maybe?) and has never been released. He and I were working on a DPS project to tabulate baselines for every popular build, but we scrapped the project since he quit DDO, I have less time, and the controvery would inevitably make the game less fun for me.

It's a nice calculator and has helped me come to informed decisions about how to do my own equipment, which items to craft, and which abilities to prioritize. I am not the type of person who is soley moved by numbers that come in a vaccuum (have a look at my builds), but I think they can still inform making good decisions. He has updated it to take into account smiting, divine sacrifice, monk punch rotations, glancing blows and frenzied berzeker, fight durations & short-term buffs. The downside is that it's really confusing to use! His help file is a little esoteric.

Warforged FVS DPS numbers
I apologize if you felt the numbers were misleading. I had originally calculated the numbers at work to show Melkor how someone could take his exact build and rework it (through lesser reincarnate, gear changes, and playstyle changes) to do substantially more DPS. Thus, if "tanking ability" = DPS, then perhaps he is not specced for "tanking ability" as he says here but instead for healing as he says in his own thread.

As I said in a follow up, the difference is still like 40 DPS even if both builds are twitching or not twitching. Attack speed is the easiest factor to consider. You can tell for yourself simply by multiplying the number by 107 / 130 (# of attacks without twitch / # of attacks with twitch). Just keep in mind that the tally is increased because of the fact that greater two handed fighting makes the weight of glancing blows more substantial when you're not twitching (~10 more dps).

Two handed fighting will have glancing blows on 50% of attacks with no feats, with 2hf, or i2hf. Taking the Greater Two Handed Fighting feat increases that rate to 75%. Twitching drops that number back down to 50%. Each level of two handed fighting feat line also increases the damage on each glancing blow.


Ravager Set and Glancing Blows
The way Ravager set works -- and this is something that very few people have been talking about -- is that it adds 2d6 to every single attack. Initially, people talked about it mostly as a damage over time thing. That is probably why very few builds take advantage of it. The DoT does still apply, but is difficult to take into account in DPS calculations.

That 2d6 (as well as the 1d4 from Tempest set) will not only apply after every swing, but will also attach to every glancing blow. For example, if you are wearing both sets and your glancing blow would have been for 30, you'll see something like 30+7+2 on your screen. That's a huge increase! Approximately 9 damage per second on your autoattack number just with one item (and much more if you are fighting more than one target). If your forte is taking on a pack of monsters, this is something to take seriously.

I should also note that the ravager set does not work on constructs or undead. Some people get around this by using a Frenzied Berzeker set to swap to against these types of foes.

Steveohio
05-13-2010, 01:06 PM
I'm not really trying to argue with you here, but you do keep coming back to a lack of feats when you are a 2 monk splash. That splash actually allows you to keep your healing as good as it can get, as well as picking up 2 extra feats which you can then alocate towards dps. you seem to be saying that your hurting either your offense or healing, when in fact you have the ability to do both now. At a loss of DR and spells. Offense is good right?

Also those aren't my dps numbers. Most non WF builds aren't going to have a eSoS, they are gonna have min2 weapons, thus negating any need for it. I honestly have no clue how to calculate reliable dps numbers, because of the various factors that come along, such as casting. However its fairly obvious that the more dps feats you have the better your dps will be. And any other non-wf fvs can just get a esos and use it also, losing 4 dmg off the top and the lack of WF PA. Not a huge deal IMO.

Also, how can you disagree that those are the things that make a tank a tank?
Otherwise your just a DPS build, which is fine, and sure, you can do most everything in the game without that dedicated tank, however Elite and epic level raids they make it a whole lot easier. And yes, when you have a group full of top tier dps builds along with filling in the other requirements you do generally go through quests faster.

However, Id love to see some elite raids trying to agro kite suulo or harry around in elite with a non intimidating FVS. As a healer, once I caught wind of that proposed strategy I'd laugh my ass off and go join another group.

You seem to be making wild assertations here, yet in other threads you tell people not to mislead others.
firstly, that you do 3x more dmg than a fully specced out TWF soul
secondly, that you can do things other souls cannot, yet I've not seen any examples other than I hit harder so i can tank better, while an evasion based soul can actually complete more quests solo than a non evasion(those 3 you mention, but im sure theres more)
thirdly, that somehow with more feats, your dps and healing capabilities are worse than a pure
fourth, that tanks are about dps, not ac, hp, damage mitigation, and agro generation.
fifth, that a build with more feats neglects to take extend, when they could if they wanted to. player choice again I
sixth, that just by having the GTWF line you automatically suck at healing and suck at dps, so you should just go melee class.

Now, if you wanna say, you like the DR, more spells or the esos over greensteel more than a splash build thats fine. But to say that your build(pure) trumps all other fvs out there is pure folly which seems to be what your saying to me. Its not all that hard to have a WF 18/2 fvs build that has everything you have minus a few spells(which some dont feel the need for) and DR, but gain better dps and keeping the same healing capacity. Sure your buffing won't be as good, due to lack of certain spells, but more often than not you'll be running with a cleric in raids anyways, and I find buffing other people to be a pia and leave that to the silly clerics.

I myself, as a heavy splash 16/2/2 dwarf fvs/pal/monk that gets asked by virtually any pug i run with if I can heal, have 0 issues running as the only healer in epic or elite quests. Nor as the 2nd healer of 2 healers in any raids I've run, epic included. I know the limitations of my toon, and don't pretend to have the buffs you do, or the spell point pool of a pure. However I have certain things which no other FVS build out there has.

Such as elite saves + evasion, the highest hp possible without a healing penalty, and dual 2d8 x3 min2 greensteel weaponry(when i craft it) and full GTWF line along with all the metas for healing. The only thing I really miss out on can be made up through mneumonic potions(mass cures instead of mass heal takes more sp) or scrolls. The DR is negligable at best to me, and I'm not too hot on any of the capstone spells so much that I'd give up all the above.

Then again my character concept is different that yours and this whole thread is pretty much a giant roundabout with the same things repeated over and over, that there is not one single best build out there.

Anthios888
05-13-2010, 01:15 PM
Steve, I think the essence of what you're saying is dead on. I just wanted to add that the epic Sword of Shadows really is a wonderful weapon for a character that is already using two-handed fighting. On some builds, just changing weapons adds as much as 50% DPS. Even if you cannot get an epic sword, a lightning II weapon tends to add between 15%-20% additional DPS. That is why so many are picking up the improved critical feat on builds that would otherwise have skipped it in mod 6.

For perspective, here's my DPS spread on my human favored soul. See how much of a difference there is between the mineral II and the SoS for this build, and how using the SoS without extra feats or gear does not really come close to competing with 2wf.

Rocka's DPS (not including haste boost*)


Mineral II Greataxe -- 160 DPS (no twitch)
Epic Sword of Shadows -- 239 DPS (no twitch)
Earthgrab Heavy Picks - 268 DPS (need to recraft as one is +3 wis)
Epic Sword of Shadows -- 304 DPS (twitch)
Mineral II Khopeshes -- 307 DPS
Lightning II Khopeshes - 310 DPS without power attack
Epic Chaosblades -- 312 DPS
Lightning II Khopeshes -- 340 DPS


40 STR
Epic Marilith Chain
Knost's Set
Shintao Set
Litany of the Dead
Power Attack (+1 barbarian enhancement)
50% sneak attacks
+8 Bard Song

*Haste boost adds about 7% attack speed increase over a 5-minute fight.

Xithos
05-13-2010, 04:00 PM
Steve, I think the essence of what you're saying is dead on. I just wanted to add that the epic Sword of Shadows really is a wonderful weapon for a character that is already using two-handed fighting. On some builds, just changing weapons adds as much as 50% DPS. Even if you cannot get an epic sword, a lightning II weapon tends to add between 15%-20% additional DPS. That is why so many are picking up the improved critical feat on builds that would otherwise have skipped it in mod 6.

For perspective, here's my DPS spread on my human favored soul. See how much of a difference there is between the mineral II and the SoS for this build, and how using the SoS without extra feats or gear does not really come close to competing with 2wf.

Rocka's DPS (not including haste boost*)

Mineral II Greataxe -- 160 DPS (no twitch)
Epic Sword of Shadows -- 239 DPS (no twitch)
Earthgrab Heavy Picks - 291 DPS
Epic Sword of Shadows -- 304 DPS (twitch)
Epic Chaosblades -- 342 DPS
Mineral II Khopeshes -- 349 DPS
Lightning II Khopeshes - 352 DPS without power attack
Lightning II Khopeshes -- 384 DPS

40 STR
Epic Marilith Chain
Knost's Set
Shintao Set
Litany of the Dead
Power Attack (+1 barbarian enhancement)
50% sneak attacks
+8 Bard Song

*Haste boost adds about 7% attack speed increase over a 5-minute fight.

That looks like a good assesment of Raid Boss DPS considerations (DR not considered for Lightning Strike) given your gear and build. Another point of note in my mind is that when running most epics you will be getting a lot more sneak attack than just 50%; any rogue sporting radiance will be giving you max sneak attack and anytime a critter succumbs to a weighted stun, stunning blow, or monk fist you get them also. Most meleesouls I know sport Tharne's Goggles for the additional + to hit as well as the sneak and that will pull the Lightning Strike DPS ahead even further.

In the event that a mob is not under any of the above "Death sentence" conditions, a meleesoul is still a secondary DPS compared to classes like Fighter and Barb so you won't have the aggroe and still get your sneak attack damage. TWF benefits a great deal more than THF for sneak attack damage. Also, have you considered using the Verik's set to get your haste boosts up to 7 and then switching to the Shintao after you have exhausted them? I do that on mine and it seems to work fairly well :)

Anthios888
05-13-2010, 05:16 PM
That looks like a good assesment of Raid Boss DPS considerations (DR not considered for Lightning Strike) given your gear and build. Another point of note in my mind is that when running most epics you will be getting a lot more sneak attack than just 50%; any rogue sporting radiance will be giving you max sneak attack and anytime a critter succumbs to a weighted stun, stunning blow, or monk fist you get them also. Most meleesouls I know sport Tharne's Goggles for the additional + to hit as well as the sneak and that will pull the Lightning Strike DPS ahead even further.

In the event that a mob is not under any of the above "Death sentence" conditions, a meleesoul is still a secondary DPS compared to classes like Fighter and Barb so you won't have the aggroe and still get your sneak attack damage. TWF benefits a great deal more than THF for sneak attack damage. Also, have you considered using the Verik's set to get your haste boosts up to 7 and then switching to the Shintao after you have exhausted them? I do that on mine and it seems to work fairly well :)

Thanks for the ideas and replies. I do use Tharne's goggles. I tend to use 50% as a baseline sneak attack number across all builds just to be fair. I didn't want to weigh my build any higher than the warforged.

The Verik's set is a nice idea, although I must say that I almost never use anything but the Torc. I am an addict and try to have aggro whenever possible (lots of guards and dr items and stuff). I put on the shintao set if I see a miss, and since I included it in the warforged builds, I thought I would also include it to show the potential.

I want to apologize that the numbers I provided were off. The swing speed in my calculator was still set to paladin with zeal instead of a slow old favored soul. I've adjusted my post accordingly. It still led me to the same conclusion/decisions.

Mellkor
05-13-2010, 06:27 PM
I'm not really trying to argue with you here, but you do keep coming back to a lack of feats when you are a 2 monk splash. That splash actually allows you to keep your healing as good as it can get, as well as picking up 2 extra feats which you can then alocate towards dps. you seem to be saying that your hurting either your offense or healing, when in fact you have the ability to do both now. At a loss of DR and spells. Offense is good right? I meant offensive casting which really goes without saying for both builds

Also those aren't my dps numbers. Most non WF builds aren't going to have a eSoS, they are gonna have min2 weapons, thus negating any need for it. I honestly have no clue how to calculate reliable dps numbers, because of the various factors that come along, such as casting. However its fairly obvious that the more dps feats you have the better your dps will be. And any other non-wf fvs can just get a esos and use it also, losing 4 dmg off the top and the lack of WF PA. Not a huge deal IMO.

Also, how can you disagree that those are the things that make a tank a tank?
Otherwise your just a DPS build, which is fine, and sure, you can do most everything in the game without that dedicated tank, however Elite and epic level raids they make it a whole lot easier. And yes, when you have a group full of top tier dps builds along with filling in the other requirements you do generally go through quests faster. Which supports my view that tanks (by your definition) are worthless. In elite and epics we NEVER use tanks (as you define it), we find it easy enough to just slighty change our tactics by using aggro management that also does dps. We still complete epics and elite quests quickly via high DPS

However, Id love to see some elite raids trying to agro kite suulo or harry around in elite with a non intimidating FVS. As a healer, once I caught wind of that proposed strategy I'd laugh my ass off and go join another group. we dont have to kite them, we just beat them down. Works great for us

You seem to be making wild assertations here, yet in other threads you tell people not to mislead others.
firstly, that you do 3x more dmg than a fully specced out TWF soul
Yep, I do. Based on playing both, I still assert this. I don't put any faith in this magic DPS calculator that noone can seem to confirm or deny its validity or have available to use to duplicate results, or even peer review. I kill most things 2-3 times faster with this guy than my splash build did in the same quests on the same difficulties ( he wasnt as well equiped as this guy is, but had ok equipment). AND again, you are twisting what I said here, by adding things here I did not say. I base my statements on actual experience, not some number cruncher that cant possibly factor in every variable.

secondly, that you can do things other souls cannot, yet I've not seen any examples other than I hit harder so i can tank better, while an evasion based soul can actually complete more quests solo than a non evasion(those 3 you mention, but im sure theres more)
Again thats not what I said I never said an evasion soul can complete a quest a straight soul can not. There is no quest in this game where evasion is required to complete. There is no quest a straight soul cant do. I also provided several examples of things I have personally done with my straight FvS that I have never seen a splash FvS do

thirdly, that somehow with more feats, your dps and healing capabilities are worse than a pure Once again, evasion gimps you because you loose too much for the gain for so many reasons already discussed ad nauseum in this thread, if you still dont understand this after reading this thread, there is no point discussing it further, we will never agree on any aspect about it.


fourth, that tanks are about dps, not ac, hp, damage mitigation, and agro generation.
Of course they are, you seem to think a tank = bad DPS which makes him worthless if he cant hit the broad side of a barn.

fifth, that a build with more feats neglects to take extend, when they could if they wanted to. player choice again I
Fail to see a point here. Player choice?, yes. I agree.

sixth, that just by having the GTWF line you automatically suck at healing and suck at dps, so you should just go melee class.
Once again, this is not what I said or implied

Now, if you wanna say, you like the DR, more spells or the esos over greensteel more than a splash build thats fine. But to say that your build(pure) trumps all other fvs out there is pure folly which seems to be what your saying to me. Its not all that hard to have a WF 18/2 fvs build that has everything you have minus a few spells(which some dont feel the need for) and DR, but gain better dps and keeping the same healing capacity. Sure your buffing won't be as good, due to lack of certain spells, but more often than not you'll be running with a cleric in raids anyways, and I find buffing other people to be a pia and leave that to the silly clerics.The issues you speak of here are pretty darn important to a primary healer! And are some of the very reasons why a pure "trumps," as you say, a splash build healer FvS.

I myself, as a heavy splash 16/2/2 dwarf fvs/pal/monk that gets asked by virtually any pug i run with if I can heal, have 0 issues running as the only healer in epic or elite quests. Nor as the 2nd healer of 2 healers in any raids I've run, epic included. I know the limitations of my toon, and don't pretend to have the buffs you do, or the spell point pool of a pure. However I have certain things which no other FVS build out there has. I cant believe you have 0 issues as a primary healer, especially in epics and raids with a this build, especially with no 9th level spells and a lot fewer higher level spells, a much smaller SP pool, and especially (I am assuming) if you focused on spells that help yourself, and not the party so much.

Such as elite saves + evasion, the highest hp possible without a healing penalty, and dual 2d8 x3 min2 greensteel weaponry(when i craft it) and full GTWF line along with all the metas for healing. The only thing I really miss out on can be made up through mneumonic potions(mass cures instead of mass heal takes more sp) or scrolls. The DR is negligable at best to me, and I'm not too hot on any of the capstone spells so much that I'd give up all the above. DR is a major reason to go pure, as previously discussed, it really makse a big difference, in my experience as well as for the other reasons already discussed.

Then again my character concept is different that yours and this whole thread is pretty much a giant roundabout with the same things repeated over and over, that there is not one single best build out there.
Certainly agree with this. whole heartedly.

rebuttals in red in red.