PDA

View Full Version : FIRE WALL: Remove it.



villainsimple
03-08-2010, 09:34 AM
This spell, and spells like it...but mostly this spell, have become a crutch for the developers.

When Sorcs and frequently wizards are less a DPS class and more a "Spam Firewall here!" class, something has gone horribly wrong.

Don't believe me? Go play a Sorc from level 1 to level 20 without ever picking up firewall or a similar spell. See how frequently you get attacked, ridiculed, thrown out of groups, or simply thought of as stupid. I can think of no other spell with the possible exception of haste, and often not even then" that will result in the "You don't have firewall?" lecture.

And the worse of it is Devs have fed into this playstyle. Because it serves as a bandaid. It lets the devs call Sorcs and frequently wizards a DPS class while allowing them to gloss over the fact that it's not so much DPS as it is a "Spam Firewall here!" class.


And that's just sloppy and poor game design.

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 09:41 AM
Just add a fear component so mobs don't run through it.

That may be a reasonable suggestion as well... but the developers don't want to do that. If mobs did start running out of firewalls... which seems perfectly sane to me.. Arcane DPS would virtually evaporate.

KingOfCheese
03-08-2010, 09:43 AM
Wall of fire does dominate through the mid levels--but I find it has much more limited use at end game. Its great for some epic desert content--but nearly useless against the Amarath content--and far too slow a killer for other end-game content. I think it is like a lot of other aspects of other classes--dominant at certain levels or dominant in certain quests--but balanced in the big picture. When I think through the higher level raids (Shroud, VOD, Hound, ToD, Abbot, Titan, DQ, Von), it rarely gets uses (a little use in DQ--I don't cast it at all in the others).

Robi3.0
03-08-2010, 09:44 AM
I can think of no other spell with the possible exception of haste, and often not even then" that will result in the "You don't have firewall?" lecture.

On this point you are right. My sorc never carried around GH for the longest time and you know what I never once got lectured for not having firewall because of it.;)

Also

You don't think Wiz and Sorc are suppose to be a DPS classes?

Hendrik
03-08-2010, 09:44 AM
Ahh Villain.....


Back at it again I see.

Didn't make enough friends last time you started doing this?

Anyways, this should go to Suggestions so it can be promptly ignored.

grodon9999
03-08-2010, 09:46 AM
That may be a reasonable suggestion as well... but the developers don't want to do that. If mobs did start running out of firewalls... which seems perfectly sane to me.. Arcane DPS would virtually evaporate.

It evaporates already when you hit Amrath :).

The existence of firewall/Blade Barrier and kamikazi AI are rationales for the insane hit points that mobs have. If they had some self-preservation instincts they wouldn't need hundreds/thousands of hit points. The current setup leads to a lot of "ring around the rosie" tactics which are quite frankly ********.

If FW/BB had a fear component something else would need to be changed to compensate which will bring you further and further down the rabbit-hole of madness. it's probably best to just accept this silliness as it stands.

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 09:47 AM
Wall of fire does dominate through the mid levels--but I find it has much more limited use at end game. Its great for some epic desert content--but nearly useless against the Amarath content--and far too slow a killer for other end-game content. I think it is like a lot of other aspects of other classes--dominant at certain levels or dominant in certain quests--but balanced in the big picture. When I think through the higher level raids (Shroud, VOD, Hound, ToD, Abbot, Titan, DQ, Von), it rarely gets uses (a little use in DQ--I don't cast it at all in the others).

Cherry picking specific content where Firewall isn't used... while ignoring all the rest of the content in the game where it is used is disingenuous.

Missing_Minds
03-08-2010, 09:48 AM
I have only one thing to say...he's baaaccck...

BTW, you'd have to remove "Wall of Fire".

Gunga
03-08-2010, 09:48 AM
shr plz

SilentPinoy
03-08-2010, 09:50 AM
If you are a Warforged simply state you are a Force spec

No really, at higher level play Wall o' Fire is not as frequented (unless set up for ambush) but even then half the time mobs and players don't even stand at their locations. More sensibly I've seen casters blasting away with scorching ray, finger of death, and leaving melee/rangers to clean house.

That and WoF draws more agro then it should... I'm guessing you are at the 7-11 level where it's the most incredible thing ever. (I mean have you ever just watched fire burn? It's so pretty). And I doubt any wiz/sorc who finds the need to spam more than 1 WoF per room and not kite around it(concentrating on not getting hit rather than trying to "nuke" everything)

Granted it does drain SP, where a properly damaging nuke spec sorc or high save/spell pen wiz will do the same job more effectively/quicker, with no fuss.

WoF isn't bad, the society you don't accept is just indifferent to your opinion.

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 09:51 AM
On this point you are right. My sorc never carried around GH for the longest time and you know what I never once got lectured for not having firewall because of it.;)

Also

You don't think Wiz and Sorc are suppose to be a DPS classes?


I do want DPS to be a viable option for Sorcs/Wizards... however... Sorcs and Wizards lean so heavily on Firewall for a reason. I mean I hate to turn to PnP and all, but if the DM required the caster to just sit around spamming Firewall all day, and almost every quest he'd be considered a **** poor DM, and rightfully so.

Hendrik
03-08-2010, 09:52 AM
I have only one thing to say...he's baaaccck...

BTW, you'd have to remove "Wall of Fire".


Just like a comedic gift that keeps on giving.

:D

KingOfCheese
03-08-2010, 09:53 AM
Cherry picking specific content where Firewall isn't used... while ignoring all the rest of the content in the game where it is used is disingenuous.

I disagree. This isn't cherry picking. This is the content that many (most?) players focus on at end game. Casters are my mains. I rarely use wall of fire (except Epic desert content).

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 09:53 AM
If you are a Warforged simply state you are a Force spec

No really, at higher level play Wall o' Fire is not as frequented (unless set up for ambush) but even then half the time mobs and players don't even stand at their locations. More sensibly I've seen casters blasting away with scorching ray, finger of death, and leaving melee/rangers to clean house.

That and WoF draws more agro then it should... I'm guessing you are at the 7-11 level where it's the most incredible thing ever. (I mean have you ever just watched fire burn? It's so pretty). And I doubt any wiz/sorc who finds the need to spam more than 1 WoF per room and not kite around it(concentrating on not getting hit rather than trying to "nuke" everything)

WoF isn't bad, the society you don't accept just is indifferent to you opinion.


Comparatively speaking, how useful is... Delayed Blast Fireball?

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 09:54 AM
I disagree. This isn't cherry picking. This is the content that many (most?) players focus on at end game. Casters are my mains. I rarely use wall of fire (except Epic desert content).

Because the entire game is end game, right? I mean it's not like the Devs are intentionally trying to get you to constantly replay through the exact same content you just spent 20 levels playing through... oh... wait. Nevermind.

KingOfCheese
03-08-2010, 09:55 AM
Comparatively speaking, how useful is... Delayed Blast Firewall?

I use DBF much more than Wall of Fire at end game. DBF is much better dps for things that need quick killing. DBF is a great damage spell against the Abbot.

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 09:57 AM
I use DBF much more than Wall of Fire at end game. DBF is much better dps for things that need quick killing. DBF is a great damage spell against the Abbot.

See, there it is again. You're pickin ONE GUY. You need to consider the entire rest of the game too.

KingOfCheese
03-08-2010, 09:57 AM
Because the entire game is end game, right?

For a lot of the player base the answer to this is yes.

Tyrande
03-08-2010, 09:57 AM
So what are you suggesting, OP?

Devs are working on the Savants PrE and possibly the Energy Substitution feat.

Your extended maximized empowered firewall today may turn into a lightning wall some day and end game devils will not be immune.

Firewall may be good but not always useful:

DQ at 20%: immune because of mantle (immune to 4th level spells and below)
Red Dragon: immune
Titan: construct (heal with fire)
Devils: immune (Shroud and ToD)
Abbott: immune because of constant mantle (see DQ)

Stuff that it only works on now at 20th are:
Epic content at Desert (except chains of flame) or VONS (except Red Dragon)
Stormreaver
Sorjek Incanni (SOS)
Monsters that are not immune to fire.

KingOfCheese
03-08-2010, 09:59 AM
See, there it is again. You're pickin ONE GUY. You need to consider the entire rest of the game too.

I think you may have misread my post. While I did pick one guy (and probably the most important one in terms of getting killer raid gear for casters--but I digress), the main point was that I use DBF more the Wall of Fire, in general.

jozzcooper
03-08-2010, 09:59 AM
This spell, and spells like it...but mostly this spell, have become a crutch for the developers.
And that's just sloppy and poor game design.

It's a bit sloppy to say Firewall, too.
Since so many monsters are immune to Wall of Fire, maybe you should target a spell like Blade Barrier, instead. Personally, I'd much rather have a Wall of Acid.

Hendrik
03-08-2010, 09:59 AM
See, there it is again. You're pickin ONE GUY. You need to consider the entire rest of the game too.

Your picking one Spell, so?

And you might take your own advice and consider the rest of the game as well before you suggest removing one of the most iconic spells in D&D.

Tyrande
03-08-2010, 10:02 AM
It's a bit sloppy to say Firewall, too.
Since so many monsters are immune to Wall of Fire, maybe you should target a spell like Blade Barrier, instead. Personally, I'd much rather have a Wall of Acid.

Yeah, Blade Barrier works everywhere. Haven't seen that not working.

KKDragonLord
03-08-2010, 10:03 AM
My condolences Villain, you got positive rep to bring you back from your glorious 4 red squares back to one. I see this thread is a desperate effort to recoup your losses, good luck with that. I'd help you if i could.

(ps: i wont remove my firewall because i use windows and its generally not a good idea to risk that)

Hendrik
03-08-2010, 10:04 AM
My condolences Villain, you got positive rep to bring you back from your glorious 4 red squares back to one. I see this thread is a desperate effort to recoup your losses, good luck with that. I'd help you if i could.

(ps: i wont remove my firewall because i use windows and its generally not a good idea to risk that)

We will have a great many more chances to help...

;)

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 10:06 AM
Yeah, Blade Barrier works everywhere. Haven't seen that not working.



And like I said, similar spells.

You can pick out numerous instances where firewall is not useful. Certainly. But there are dozens of instances where if it's not mandatory... it's "highly suggested".

MrWizard
03-08-2010, 10:08 AM
This spell, and spells like it...but mostly this spell, have become a crutch for the developers.

When Sorcs and frequently wizards are less a DPS class and more a "Spam Firewall here!" class, something has gone horribly wrong.

Don't believe me? Go play a Sorc from level 1 to level 20 without ever picking up firewall or a similar spell. See how frequently you get attacked, ridiculed, thrown out of groups, or simply thought of as stupid. I can think of no other spell with the possible exception of haste, and often not even then" that will result in the "You don't have firewall?" lecture.

And the worse of it is Devs have fed into this playstyle. Because it serves as a bandaid. It lets the devs call Sorcs and frequently wizards a DPS class while allowing them to gloss over the fact that it's not so much DPS as it is a "Spam Firewall here!" class.


And that's just sloppy and poor game design.

that spam firewall thing is just a certain type of player, both as a caster and others in a group.
I found, leveling in the past my casters, firewall is rarely ever needed in most dungeons. Just for real bad heavy duty bosses and such.

I found control spells to rule supreme for speed of loot, xp, etc.

You just run with a bunch of noobs or 'stuck in mindset' players.

A lot of players HATE magic users of all kinds and will only accept healers or direct damage dealers. They consider things like hypno, charm, fogs, etc to be a 'cheat', to be 'cheap', and to be an exploit.
As a caster leveling up, there is very few places where you even need to concern yourself with other party members til you get to high level. Simply put, til you get to the vail you are in almost complete control of most content, without firewall.

Tell them to drop and find other players that like to have fun and blast through dungeons with your wiz/sorc.

firewall=boring play
firewall = real slow dungeons
firewall = needed for special encounters only.
firewall = deleras = stupid waste of mana and time (try halt undead, quicker)

Hendrik
03-08-2010, 10:09 AM
And like I said, similar spells.

You can pick out numerous instances where firewall is not useful. Certainly. But there are dozens of instances where if it's not mandatory... it's "highly suggested".

So your 'answer' is to just remove it from game?!?!?!

Fail.

gavagai
03-08-2010, 10:17 AM
And the worse of it is Devs have fed into this playstyle. Because it serves as a bandaid. It lets the devs call Sorcs and frequently wizards a DPS class while allowing them to gloss over the fact that it's not so much DPS as it is a "Spam Firewall here!" class.

And that's just sloppy and poor game design.

FW shouldn't be dropped entirely. Persistent damage and persistent effects are extremely efficient in a game designed with ruthlessly large numbers of trash enemies with lots of hit points. FW also blessedly adds tactics and terrain to the nuker's vocabulary, which is -fun- when playing an offensive caster.

But I actually agree that firewall is a problem for casters. It's too powerful per its level and description, but if you nerf it you severely nerf casters since there are few viable alternatives.

Just like Kopeshes are a problem for humans and TWF DPSers: extremely powerful, but Turbine can't just take away the x3 multiplier without substantially harming humans and most TWF DPSers.

The question is: what exactly is the major problem with FW (other than whiny players)?

Is the problem that the damage output per SP spent needs to go down? I don't think so.
Or that better burst / persistent / tactical damage alternatives need to be available at higher levels? I agree!
Or is it the lemming-like monster AI? I agree!

I suspect that the the Sorc and Wizard PrEs are going to be somewhat lame unless Turbine does something to mitigate Firewall. Most buffs to nukes will either be balanced against Firewall, in which case it will be underwhelming for most other spells; or it will be a decent buff that makes Firewall even more ubiquitous -- like elemental substitution.

Laprion
03-08-2010, 10:17 AM
Ok why don't we remove ALL spells fromt he game heck ALL Classes And ALL races ohh what the hell NO levels











ohh i know what get rid of all the graphic too LETS PLAY PONG!!!!!!

Wall of Fire is about as useful as the heal spell you wanna get rid of a spell they nerf 5 times all i can say is get a life or a new game to make comments about

Memnir
03-08-2010, 10:22 AM
.
.
.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/EnPsyane/godzilla-facepalm.jpg
.
.
.

Diarden
03-08-2010, 10:23 AM
Also, please remove Merfolks Blessing and Spawn Screen. Those spells are way overpowered, and I'm sick of the E-Z Button.

Crazyfruit
03-08-2010, 10:24 AM
See how frequently you get attacked, ridiculed, thrown out of groups, or simply thought of as stupid

Been there :(

I ended up taking it on a lvl 10 sorc when I first started playing the game because of people whining for it. "Block the door while a firewall kills everything for us" etc. Then the people who couldn't kill monsters started whining that I didn't have maximize (my first char), full fire spec or something else...

My current wizard doesn't have firewall in her spellbook @ lvl 20. Most of the people I've grouped with never noticed I didn't have the spell :) A few people have complained through the game - but it's usually just the bad players who haven't even played a caster.

The other day I was doing an epic OOB and someone was whining on voice for 2 mins telling me I should swap wail for it (was kiting first named through an incin cloud, sleet & BB at the time). He died in the room standing around doing more whining about stuff while the rest of us took off running hehe

Phidius
03-08-2010, 10:26 AM
That may be a reasonable suggestion as well... but the developers don't want to do that. If mobs did start running out of firewalls... which seems perfectly sane to me.. Arcane DPS would virtually evaporate.


Yes, we're all aware that you want to elminate Arcane DPS. Oh, and mobs already run out of firewalls.

Angelus_dead
03-08-2010, 10:26 AM
This spell, and spells like it...but mostly this spell, have become a crutch for the developers.
You are correct that both Wall of Fire and Blade Barrier are bad spells that should never have been added. However, it would be unwise to remove them now. The fix will have to be done in other, more complicated ways.

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 10:27 AM
Been there :(

I ended up taking it on a lvl 10 sorc when I first started playing the game because of people whining for it. "Block the door while a firewall kills everything for us" etc. Then the people who couldn't kill monsters started whining that I didn't have maximize (my first char), full fire spec or something else...


Oh em gee, I was actually getting guff for not just having maximized...empowered... and full fire spec, even with those ridiculous crit enhancements... but I didn't have EXTEND too... so the group leader was *****ing about that.

calvinklien
03-08-2010, 10:29 AM
Don't believe me?

have you ever played a caster? at high levels this spell, and almost every other spell is worthless, dare i say, mages almost become worthless. party's only want you for your buffs, mainly blur, greater heroism or stoneskin, and haste. it's pretty sad. almost no spells that are 'cool' work, and basically all you can do is cold rays or CC like exhaustion. not even energy drain works on bosses, only on trash mobs, which at high lvls trash mobs are nothing for the high dps melee builds and spending SP on them is literally a waste.



And that's just sloppy and poor game design.

welcome to DDO.

Mentor61
03-08-2010, 10:29 AM
Been there :(

I ended up taking it on a lvl 10 sorc when I first started playing the game because of people whining for it. "Block the door while a firewall kills everything for us" etc. Then the people who couldn't kill monsters started whining that I didn't have maximize (my first char), full fire spec or something else...

My current wizard doesn't have firewall in her spellbook @ lvl 20. Most of the people I've grouped with never noticed I didn't have the spell :) A few people have complained through the game - but it's usually just the bad players who haven't even played a caster.

The other day I was doing an epic OOB and someone was whining on voice for 2 mins telling me I should swap wail for it (was kiting first named through an incin cloud, sleet & BB at the time). He died in the room standing around doing more whining about stuff while the rest of us took off running hehe


LOL @ a caster without firewall...Please,make sure to NOT take the best spell in the game...You should also not carry haste,it's a waste of a slot,too.

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 10:30 AM
You are correct that both Wall of Fire and Blade Barrier are bad spells that should never have been added. However, it would be unwise to remove them now. The fix will have to be done in other, more complicated ways.

The most direct solution is dramatically ramping up the recharge timer. Make it impossible to "spam". Give it like a 30 second recharge timer for sorcs, and a 45 second recharge timer for wizards.

augie
03-08-2010, 10:31 AM
Well then, let's keep goin with other crutches that should be removed due to their blatant over-use and stereotypical group expectations:

Pally - Smite Evil.

Cleric - Heal, Mass cures.

Bard - Songs.

Barbarian - Raging.

Fighter - Swinging a weapon in general.

There we go. That should about do it.

Aspenor
03-08-2010, 10:32 AM
Oh em gee, I was actually getting guff for not just having maximized...empowered... and full fire spec, even with those ridiculous crit enhancements... but I didn't have EXTEND too... so the group leader was *****ing about that.

You could try making a useful character....that might be a good idea.

ChaelaAnne
03-08-2010, 10:37 AM
And like I said, similar spells.

You can pick out numerous instances where firewall is not useful. Certainly. But there are dozens of instances where if it's not mandatory... it's "highly suggested".

Okay then... for future reference, all other references to specific mobs, end bosses, raids, quests, pizzas, and/or kittens should be considered to be mobs, end bosses, raids, quests, pizzas and/or kittens and SIMILAR things.

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 10:44 AM
You could try making a useful character....that might be a good idea.

Having Maximized, Empowered Fire Spec'd Sorc (with firewall) makes my character useless?

Not really following your logic. Unless a character is useless unless it has extend....

Gornin
03-08-2010, 10:44 AM
:rolleyes: Oy Vey.

Dark_Uncle72
03-08-2010, 10:45 AM
shr plz
+1 my good sir

.
.
.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/EnPsyane/godzilla-facepalm.jpg
.
.
.
Mem...I'm at a loss for words... EPIC m'man.. (although the rep gods seem to deny me any chance at reppin u... I reckon a *high-five* will have to do... gimped I know)

Well then, let's keep goin with other crutches that should be removed due to their blatant over-use and stereotypical group expectations:

Pally - Smite Evil.

Cleric - Heal, Mass cures.

Bard - Songs.

Barbarian - Raging.

Fighter - Swinging a weapon in general.

There we go. That should about do it.
+1 for that revealing tidbit,

and might I add

Level 16 and up and TR'd Characters- Greensteel weapons of mass destruction

Aspenor
03-08-2010, 10:47 AM
Having Maximized, Empowered Fire Spec'd Sorc (with firewall) makes my character useless?

Not really following your logic. Unless a character is useless unless it has extend....

I misread your post. It appeared you didnt have maximize, or empower from the way I read it, but I was incorrect.

FYI if you have to choose between empower and extend, take extend. Empower is extremely inefficient, and extend is more useful.

Braed
03-08-2010, 10:50 AM
I get that the OP gets out of bed in the morning and some of you already hate him and anything he is going to say. I disagree that the spell should be removed, but I'm not going to make it personal.

I will say that I don't want to be in a group where the leader would complain about somebody who isn't full fire-spec'd, using Max, Emp and Extend on their Wall of Fire. That is ridiculous and I bet there aren't but a handful of situations where that power wouldn't be better used doing something else.

On the contrary I've been in groups where USING Wall of Fire has lead to wipes because the healer is trying to save the caster who is throwing around those Max/Emp Walls of Fire like a fool. Epic content (which I cannot speak to) aside, I've seen plenty of times when a Quickened Fog/Cloud spell is more useful, and those same casters who caused the group wipe with their Walls of Fire would have not only saved a wipe, but made the encounter trivial by using other spells.

Mentor61
03-08-2010, 10:52 AM
I get that the OP gets out of bed in the morning and some of you already hate him and anything he is going to say. I disagree that the spell should be removed, but I'm not going to make it personal.

I will say that I don't want to be in a group where the leader would complain about somebody who isn't full fire-spec'd, using Max, Emp and Extend on their Wall of Fire. That is ridiculous and I bet there aren't but a handful of situations where that power wouldn't be better used doing something else.

On the contrary I've been in groups where USING Wall of Fire has lead to wipes because the healer is trying to save the caster who is throwing around those Max/Emp Walls of Fire like a fool. Epic content (which I cannot speak to) aside, I've seen plenty of times when a Quickened Fog/Cloud spell is more useful, and those same casters who caused the group wipe with their Walls of Fire would have not only saved a wipe, but made the encounter trivial by using other spells.


Well look at the op and all the nonsencical polluting garbage threads he puts up all day everyday...What do you expect...

maddmatt70
03-08-2010, 10:53 AM
I do not disagree with the OP. What surprises me this mod and this is a testament to the ease of the vons in comparison to the desert epic is fire wall is not in vogue in the vons. I guess one solution to firewall's overpowering nature is to gimp mobs like they did in the IQ quests to the extent where any tactic works. Running the epic vons is easy as in the easy button.

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 10:57 AM
Well then, let's keep goin with other crutches that should be removed due to their blatant over-use and stereotypical group expectations:

Yes, let's discuss this. Because what you don't seem to get is that Firewalls usefulness is wildly out of whack with the rest of the spells on the spell list. The fact that I have to spell this out for you, piecemeal is a bit disconcerting, but here we go....


Pally - Smite Evil.

Smite Evil now heals all good characters by half their hitpoints in a 30 yard radius. Why are you playing neutral?




Cleric - Heal, Mass cures.

BattleCleric? You're a BattleCleric? ***? (I can't even believe I'm pointing this one out...) And why don't you have a stack of heal scrolls?



Bard - Songs.

The Virtuoso PrE gives +10 to hit, damage, and saves. Why did you bother speccing warchanter?


Barbarian - Raging.

+20 to strength? +20 to Con? Kills you and destroys your eq when it ends? Oh well. Rage on my brother.



Fighter - Swinging a weapon in general.

Except now Picks kill every enemy in the room on a critical hit. Why are you wielding a greataxe?


There we go. That should about do it.


Yes, I hope it does do it. Because the point I've been making from the beginning was that the ridiculous amount of damage Firewall does in relation to its level and ability are so out of whack with the rest of its spell list that these exaggerations... though exaggerations aren't THAT far off.

Zereth501
03-08-2010, 10:59 AM
The problem is that it is the only viable dps option for casters. (Except level 20 sorcerers with twink gear.) Remove it, and casters become unplayable, at least as damage dealers. Consider bosses are immune against everything not damage, and you would have a problem. (There is waves of exhaustion and concealment from cloudkill, but those won't win a boss fight.) Case in point : it's very hard for casters to get into a Shroud run because pit fiends are immune to fire. If spells like chain lightning, polar ray, and ball lightning were mana efficient, they could hurt the boss just fine. But they are not. To make it only possible to nerf firewall, you would have to make other damage spells more effective first.

Result : to nerf or remove wall of fire, you would need to rebalance the whole classes. While I would see it as a desirable change, if only to bring more variety to playing a caster, I don't see it happening. Plus, there would be the risk of making things worse.

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 11:00 AM
I misread your post. It appeared you didnt have maximize, or empower from the way I read it, but I was incorrect.

FYI if you have to choose between empower and extend, take extend. Empower is extremely inefficient, and extend is more useful.

I picked up extend at level 18.

I wanted my character to have some "flavor" so gave her +1 SF on Enchant, Necro, and Trans. These were to represent her "backstory" in a tangible way...

DoctorWhofan
03-08-2010, 11:06 AM
Yeah, Blade Barrier works everywhere. Haven't seen that not working.

It still works through DOORS.

Aristalla
03-08-2010, 11:06 AM
This really just seems like a problem for the min/maxers.
If you are in a party of silly people who rely on wall of fire, especially to the extent that they require certain meta's, just drop group.
Why play with people that depend on one single tactic; it speaks volumes for their intelligence.

DoctorWhofan
03-08-2010, 11:13 AM
I get that the OP gets out of bed in the morning and some of you already hate him and anything he is going to say. I disagree that the spell should be removed, but I'm not going to make it personal.

.

Trust me, this isn't his first rodeo. He's been gone awhile, but He has a record of Removing (insert DDO stuff) here without giving a good reason.

SquelchHU
03-08-2010, 11:24 AM
This really just seems like a problem for the min/maxers.
If you are in a party of silly people who rely on wall of fire, especially to the extent that they require certain meta's, just drop group.
Why play with people that depend on one single tactic; it speaks volumes for their intelligence.

So the people that do what works are less intelligent and not more so? Sure, whatever you say buddy.

stopdying
03-08-2010, 11:34 AM
Sorry OP gotta disagree with you on this one. Here is why.

Levels 1-6: no wall of fire and no is complaining that the content is to hard.
Levels 14-20: at this point the usefulness of wall of fire goes done to almost nil. There are spots here and there but, it's not used generally as a main option any more.

But for levels 7-13 it is very useful and maybe overpowered in that range but only in those levels. After that it goes downhill pretty quick.

So you see it has no meaningful effect for two-thirds of the game and I can't see that as a gmebreaker. But if this is the type of rant you're into, you should try attacking a gamebreaking spell. For example, how about haste. You get at level 5 and is just as powerful and important at 5 as it is at level 20.

Food for thought.

Turgar
03-08-2010, 11:37 AM
waaah someone told me how to pway my caster in a way I didn't wike! I don't wanna pway the way evewyone ewse does! Make evewyone ewse pway wike I wanna pway! I don't wanna take my toys and go pway somewhere ewse, I wanna make evewyone ewse mad cause Im mad!!!

Lol get a grip dude. If you don't like wall of fire, don't use it! Maybe you should consider the possibility that the criticism you received in your group is similar to the neg rep you get here. Maybe, just maybe, you are someone that comes off in an irritating way and people dislike you...

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 11:40 AM
Sorry OP gotta disagree with you on this one. Here is why.

Levels 1-6: no wall of fire and no is complaining that the content is to hard.
Levels 14-20: at this point the usefulness of wall of fire goes done to almost nil. There are spots here and there but, it's not used generally as a main option any more.

But for levels 7-13 it is very useful and maybe overpowered in that range but only in those levels. After that it goes downhill pretty quick.

So you see it has no meaningful effect for two-thirds of the game and I can't see that as a gmebreaker. But if this is the type of rant you're into, you should try attacking a gamebreaking spell. For example, how about haste. You get at level 5 and is just as powerful and important at 5 as it is at level 20.

Food for thought.

haste is another spell I have my eye on. However, the difference between haste and firewall is that the devs have used firewall as a crutch to prop up the notion Arcane is a DPS class.

uhgungawa
03-08-2010, 11:40 AM
Well then, let's keep goin with other crutches that should be removed due to their blatant over-use and stereotypical group expectations:

Pally - Smite Evil.

Cleric - Heal, Mass cures.

Bard - Songs.

Barbarian - Raging.

Fighter - Swinging a weapon in general.

There we go. That should about do it.


You forgot Rangers - Ranged attacks
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j243/Arkayos/laughingcat.gif

DoctorWhofan
03-08-2010, 11:41 AM
waaah someone told me how to pway my caster in a way I didn't wike! I don't wanna pway the way evewyone ewse does! Make evewyone ewse pway wike I wanna pway! I don't wanna take my toys and go pway somewhere ewse, I wanna make evewyone ewse mad cause Im mad!!!

Lol get a grip dude. If you don't like wall of fire, don't use it! Maybe you should consider the possibility that the criticism you received in your group is similar to the neg rep you get here. Maybe, just maybe, you are someone that comes off in an irritating way and people dislike you...

He also doesn't like INT stat, and Fleshgolems so far...

ddaedelus
03-08-2010, 11:46 AM
This spell, and spells like it...but mostly this spell, have become a crutch for the developers.

When Sorcs and frequently wizards are less a DPS class and more a "Spam Firewall here!" class, something has gone horribly wrong.

Don't believe me? Go play a Sorc from level 1 to level 20 without ever picking up firewall or a similar spell. See how frequently you get attacked, ridiculed, thrown out of groups, or simply thought of as stupid. I can think of no other spell with the possible exception of haste, and often not even then" that will result in the "You don't have firewall?" lecture.

And the worse of it is Devs have fed into this playstyle. Because it serves as a bandaid. It lets the devs call Sorcs and frequently wizards a DPS class while allowing them to gloss over the fact that it's not so much DPS as it is a "Spam Firewall here!" class.

And that's just sloppy and poor game design.
+1 rep for amusing me today. :)

kudesnik
03-08-2010, 11:46 AM
Wall of Fire is very situational and not always work, I found myself more often use scorching ray of fireball. ( talking about fire spells). As you progress as a caster you will learn to use all kinds of spells, again it's about play style and not about DDO :). Talking about AOE spells, I like chain missiles, Cone of Cold, Cloud kill. At round level 16 I often use FoD, etc. which spells to use also depend how you as a caster treat you party :)
You prefer kill everything by yourself or make whole group work together. I.e. you may as well doing Hold Moster, Flash to Stone. etc, vs direct dmg. And sometimes direct dmg not even worse it Spell points wise. So I'd say you wrong about Wall of Fire - it's about how you play.

Fattiest
03-08-2010, 11:46 AM
He also doesn't like INT stat, and Fleshgolems so far...

He's just farming Red Bars.

stopdying
03-08-2010, 11:52 AM
haste is another spell I have my eye on. However, the difference between haste and firewall is that the devs have used firewall as a crutch to prop up the notion Arcane is a DPS class.

Wall of fire isn't a crutch, in fact, the devs have nerfed the spell to make it weaker than when it was orginally introduced. Wall of fire is just like everything else, taken into account to maintain the balance by the devs. That is why the spell loses alot of its kick in higher level content.

As far as casters being a dps class, watch a sorc or wiz drop a wail of the banshee in a crowd of trash mobs and tell me about damage per second.

Rheebus
03-08-2010, 12:13 PM
Comparatively speaking, how useful is... Delayed Blast Fireball?

D. Blast FB is awesome. My 17 Wiz uses it more than FW. DBFB does near 1,000 damage when it crits, and to everything in a radius just as large as WoF. If I hit a mob with it, it tends to be dead. When you care about aggro, WoF is a horrible spell. It does 100-200 dam against most living opponents which is only enough to get them very angry with you. Unless you have mastered the art of WoF kiting (which is beyond the grasp of many casters), WoF creates more problems than it is worth. To be honest, when a caster in my group spams WoF, I get angry. That caster better be able to kill everything in the room if he is taking all the aggro. I am not chasing mobs around while he kites them through that WoF. I'm going to sit back and watch while the large group of fiendish trolls tears him a new hole with just one landed swing. Plus, as has already been mentioned here repeatedly, WoF looses nearly all of its effectiveness in the end-game. In Amrath? Forget it. Much of the Vale and Shroud are immune to fire. My advice to WoF casters...learn how to use it. Stop the inspammity!

Visty
03-08-2010, 12:21 PM
VILLAINSIMPLE: remove it


??

BrinLondo
03-08-2010, 12:25 PM
Finally someone said it!! So sick and tired of the cliche firewall!! Boring, unoriginal, and terribly predictable. I would hate to play a mage. Even as a PnP spell few people I knew every took this spell. Yet, in "defense" of firewall, spells like fireball aren't nearly given the respect they deserve.

Rice
03-08-2010, 12:50 PM
As a lvl 20 sorc, I wholeheartedly agree. By taking away fire wall or nerfing it substantially, you give a lot of leeway in improving wizards and sorcs.

hermespan
03-08-2010, 12:51 PM
You forgot Rangers - Ranged attacks
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j243/Arkayos/laughingcat.gif

And rangers: tempest (TWF) Let's just take all the damage out of the game and give everyone foam bats to beat on stuff. That would balance the game.

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 12:54 PM
As a lvl 20 sorc, I wholeheartedly agree. By taking away fire wall or nerfing it substantially, you give a lot of leeway in improving wizards and sorcs.

And that's the goal. Because so much of the class.. and really spellcasting DPS in general.. is dependent on placable damagers the weakness of "one shot attacks" is overlooked.

Cyr
03-08-2010, 01:07 PM
Been there :(

I ended up taking it on a lvl 10 sorc when I first started playing the game because of people whining for it. "Block the door while a firewall kills everything for us" etc. Then the people who couldn't kill monsters started whining that I didn't have maximize (my first char), full fire spec or something else...

My current wizard doesn't have firewall in her spellbook @ lvl 20. Most of the people I've grouped with never noticed I didn't have the spell :) A few people have complained through the game - but it's usually just the bad players who haven't even played a caster.

The other day I was doing an epic OOB and someone was whining on voice for 2 mins telling me I should swap wail for it (was kiting first named through an incin cloud, sleet & BB at the time). He died in the room standing around doing more whining about stuff while the rest of us took off running hehe

Yeah, ignoring the best dps/sp spell in game is an awesome idea and no one is ever going to call you on that one. Just like playing a trap monkey build mechanic rogue or a dex based archer kiter should never be called out either. I'm also a fan of the long sword using str based fighters who use long swords for flavor instead of khopesh's.

villainsimple
03-08-2010, 01:13 PM
Yeah, ignoring the best dps/sp spell in game is an awesome idea and no one is ever going to call you on that one. Just like playing a trap monkey build mechanic rogue or a dex based archer kiter should never be called out either. I'm also a fan of the long sword using str based fighters who use long swords for flavor instead of khopesh's.


You have my sincere appreciation. =)

Angar
03-08-2010, 01:21 PM
Any spell in this game can be considered overpowered when you are using it in the right circumstances. Considering it is the ONLY effective DOT spell in the game, it does get overused, but I think you are grossly overstating the effectiveness of this spell throughout the entire level range.

I have a level 20 sorc, and I just reincarnated (GR) my original Wizard that I rolled the day the game went online. That wizard is now level 14, and he is fire specced. What I have noticed, however, is between the substantially lower SP base (compared to the sorc), the wider range of useful spells in the wizards spellbook (combined with the ability to swap them out easily per any given situation), and the fact that an experienced caster knows when he can and cannot dump SP, running around with Max/Emp firewalls is not usually an option. Because of this, under normal circumstances, my firewalls hit for about 70 points per tick. That is FAR from the "overpowered" spell the OP is describing.

The problem comes in when a higher level sorc or wiz steps into a lower level quest and drops max/emp/extended firewalls on everything. This is a problem with players not playing the appropriate level quests, not with the spell itself. It is, quite frankly, no different than a wiz or sorc running around fingering everything. To be honest, under normal circumstances, that spell is by far more efficient than spamming max/emp firewalls. Of course, like anything else, it is dependent on the circumstances.

The bottom line is: firewalls are exceptionally effective in a number of situations, and any caster that chooses to NOT have this spell in those situations is cutting off his nose to spite his face. However, anybody who thinks that the spell is the only thing to cast in every situation is mistaken. Being the ONLY DoT in the game (that is worth mentioning), it does tend to be cast a lot. Funny thing is, as a caster I burn more level 1 and 2 components on buffs than I do Hearts of Hens for Firewall. Does that mean that since I cast more resist energy, blur, jump, and stoneskin that they are way overused and should be removed from the game? Haste is arguably the most useful spell in the game, and only a select few would (or could) argue the point. The only difference is it allows people other than casters to rack up the kill count, so it isn't looked on in the same light as firewall.

BTW, just as firewall is very effective is used properly at level 11-15, finger of death is FAR more effective from level 13-18, but just the same, it has severely diminishing returns. Haste is effective from level 5-20, and becomes more and more important the higher the level.

hermespan
03-08-2010, 01:22 PM
"In practice a mid- to high-level Magic-User was a combination intelligence gatherer and walking artillery"

Wizard is the most versatile class in the game. You can choose to be DPS, Crowd Control, Buffer, or any combination.

Take away their dps (instakill etc) capability, and you will shelve wizard because then they are haste bots who can also CC.

IMHO you are better off with another ranger in the party than a haste bot, since you can drink haste pots and free up a party spot for DPS.

No. Find another class to pick on besides the ones you don't play.

Matuse
03-08-2010, 02:27 PM
Give him positive rep, he's obviously trying to see just how many little red boxes he can accumulate by being the biggest [Content Advisory] he possibly can without violating forum rules.

I'm sure that he'll be demanding the removal of the Heal spell next, because it doesn't just recover hitpoints, it fixes blindness, poison, and disease too. ZOMG, OP!

Hendrik
03-08-2010, 02:42 PM
Having Maximized, Empowered Fire Spec'd Sorc (with firewall) makes my character useless?

Not really following your logic. Unless a character is useless unless it has extend....

Now that you want WoF removed, yep.

Horrorscope
03-08-2010, 02:45 PM
I think there has to be more options like Fire Wall. Not get rid of it, but make other things more viable. I also agree, there are times in leveling where it's better at some points then other points. IMO that part is good game design, I like leveling and dungeons where I find a new better way to do something. That to me is called keeping the game fresh and is very important for my ADHD-self. If fire wall was removed or severely nerfed without other things coming in to replace it, I would be very disappointed.

Almerel
03-08-2010, 02:48 PM
He's just farming Red Bars.

+1 lol... but so true it's sad.

Horrorscope
03-08-2010, 02:52 PM
+1 lol... but so true it's sad.

Regarding "Farming Red Dots"...

That is one thing this community just swings and completely misses. Yeah I'm not for rid'ing firewall, but "neg rep" is not the same as /Not Signed. We act like forum noobs using it this way. The rest of the world uses it for controlling trolls with a complete lack of respect. The idea isn't for me, but far from neg rep worthy. That said, yes more of us should put things like this in "Suggestions", we read over there to, don't be so "This is big enough it has to be on the main page". We all got our wishlists.

Hendrik
03-08-2010, 02:55 PM
Regarding "Farming Red Dots"...

That is one thing this community just swings and completely misses. Yeah I'm not for rid'ing firewall, but "neg rep" is not the same as /Not Signed. We act like forum noobs using it this way. The rest of the world uses it for controlling trolls with a complete lack of respect. The idea isn't for me, but far from neg rep worthy.


With enough neg rep, all post are moderated.

Missing_Minds
03-08-2010, 03:01 PM
With enough neg rep, all post are moderated.

And he'll have enough neg rep to have a symbolic Wall of Fire. It's not just a red bar any more.

Yagi
03-08-2010, 03:03 PM
And he'll have enough neg rep to have a symbolic Wall of Fire. It's not just a red bar any more.

And then it will be nerfed.

WeaselKing
03-08-2010, 03:04 PM
Firewall will be removed concurrently with the addition of druids to DDO, just for spite.

Crazyfruit
03-08-2010, 03:13 PM
ignoring the best dps/sp spell in game is an awesome idea

It sure is - would highly recommend giving it a shot to anyone!

Playing without FW was a great way to appreciate the other spells in the game. Many at the right times are much more SP efficient than dumping max/emp firewalls, especially with a team of new players who don't stand in them :) The only times I really missed it was soloing that Garamol guy & a couple epic bosses.

Modinator0
03-08-2010, 03:32 PM
On this point you are right. My sorc never carried around GH for the longest time and you know what I never once got lectured for not having firewall because of it.;)

Also

You don't think Wiz and Sorc are suppose to be a DPS classes?

They should definitely be top-end dps classes, but I do have to agree with this post on some level. It shouldn't be removed, but things do need tweaked a bit. I think the main problem is that wall of fire is sooo good when you get it, and other low-mid level DPS spells are soo bad by comparison... When I ask about low level wizards I'm always told to "just buff and melee until you get fire wall." I do see a problem there.

Bloodhaven
03-08-2010, 03:44 PM
You have my sincere appreciation. =)

at this rate this guys rep will be in the green in no time.

Cyr
03-08-2010, 03:47 PM
It sure is - would highly recommend giving it a shot to anyone!

Playing without FW was a great way to appreciate the other spells in the game. Many at the right times are much more SP efficient than dumping max/emp firewalls, especially with a team of new players who don't stand in them :) The only times I really missed it was soloing that Garamol guy & a couple epic bosses.

I would like to point out that the poster has taken my quote of out context as my post was meant as sarcasm. In no way would I like my views to be associated as in line with the above poster. Thank you drive through.

Seliana
03-08-2010, 04:04 PM
If anything we need more higher level versions of firewall and related static aoe's to dps the high end content with. Sorcerer is defined as a DPS class, both by the developers and by the classes capstone and general design. Small patches to balance caster DPS such as temporary potency effects getting a 25% boost are really only scratching the surface of the issue.

Due to the high end contents super inflated HP, Saves, and Blanket spell immunities we need high level 8 and 9 spells that add to sustained Sorc dps, not remove it. Persistant AOE's such as Blade Barrier, Wall of Fire, Incendiary Cloud are exactly what arcane spellcasters need more of. This also needs to have AOE damage scaled back overall in order to bring casters and melee into a sustained DPS balance. One class shouldn't be able to fight forever with a sword while the other sits on its hands. Being forced to sit in the path of archers with ConOp and the Torc is a poor way to give Sorcerers the repeated damage they need to be effective.

Talon_Moonshadow
03-08-2010, 04:08 PM
Just add a fear component so mobs don't run through it.

That seems so simple doesn't it.

Ouch! That thing burns! I'm not gonna run through that again.

Same with anything else.

Oh that's not shaman Uggg's Blade Barrier. I'm not gonna run through that again.

Hey! Some guy I can't see is shooting arrows at me! I'd better find some cover quick!




Yeah, I know that will be exploited too. But at least it would make sense.

What I would really like is AI based on monster Int. And capabilities to make use of it.

Teleporting monsters. Monsters that cast Fire protect, then charge through.....once.

Of course the next mod should be full of blackbone giant skeletons IMO. With Arcanes who use Mass hold Person and Power Word Stun. :eek: (600HP WF Brbs rejoice.)


Wish they would add those creatures from the old Fiend Folio that were immune to metal weapons myself.

Fafnir
03-08-2010, 04:08 PM
I see firewall as a bit cheesy and would like to see the AI improved to make it less dominant, or the spell impact lessened. That will upset all casters but it seems that it's a bit light on.

DoctorWhofan
03-08-2010, 04:12 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=235809

THis isthe REAL issue of Firewall, not the spell itself.

Pyromaniac
03-09-2010, 07:26 PM
/not signed

Newtons_Apple
03-09-2010, 07:43 PM
Firewall will be removed concurrently with the addition of druids to DDO, just for spite.

That's ok - I'm sure in trade we'll receive Rusting Grasp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rustingGrasp.htm)...

Scary spell for you WF...

Merlocke
03-09-2010, 07:52 PM
<3 firewall

Megtj
03-10-2010, 08:26 AM
Let the AI avoid the Wall of Fire where possible, while leaving it in the game as a situational spell. At this time it is just too ridiculous an "I win" button. True, the spell loses some of it's appeal during endgame, but no matter what some of you may think, mid game is important too.

noinfo
03-10-2010, 08:32 AM
It evaporates already when you hit Amrath :).

The existence of firewall/Blade Barrier and kamikazi AI are rationales for the insane hit points that mobs have. If they had some self-preservation instincts they wouldn't need hundreds/thousands of hit points. The current setup leads to a lot of "ring around the rosie" tactics which are quite frankly ********.

If FW/BB had a fear component something else would need to be changed to compensate which will bring you further and further down the rabbit-hole of madness. it's probably best to just accept this silliness as it stands.

Thats actually quite funny when you realise that there are barbs and kensai who are massively out dpsing the firewalls.

noinfo
03-10-2010, 08:33 AM
I see firewall as a bit cheesy and would like to see the AI improved to make it less dominant, or the spell impact lessened. That will upset all casters but it seems that it's a bit light on.

True but using the same logic the mobs who witness their friends getting cut down in 2 hits from the barb still come rushing in to join them.

Mentor61
03-10-2010, 08:39 AM
Thats actually quite funny when you realise that there are barbs and kensai who are massively out dpsing the firewalls.


Nothing out dps's a crit firewall.As long as it burns nothing equals it.

Aspenor
03-10-2010, 08:41 AM
Thats actually quite funny when you realise that there are barbs and kensai who are massively out dpsing the firewalls.

Maybe if you're casting at solitary monsters. Put 10 monsters in a wall of fire....nobody touches it.

Megtj
03-10-2010, 08:45 AM
True but using the same logic the mobs who witness their friends getting cut down in 2 hits from the barb still come rushing in to join them.

Rushing an opponent that just hacked down your friends is hardly the same as avoiding a static obstacle. The barbarian might as well pursue the mobs, in which case a last charge may be the only viable option left to our poor, beleagered friends. However, what rationale would motivate an enemy to remain inside a wall of fire while there are plenty of alternative spots available, that may not be ablaze?

Kerrn_Siff
03-10-2010, 08:45 AM
I wanted my character to have some "flavor" ... These were to represent her "backstory" in a tangible way...

aaaaahh.. okay now I am starting to see the issue here :)

manumase
03-10-2010, 09:11 AM
The most direct solution is dramatically ramping up the recharge timer. Make it impossible to "spam". Give it like a 30 second recharge timer for sorcs, and a 45 second recharge timer for wizards.


you say this but most sorcs or wizards require just 1 firewall to make things work

Xenik
03-10-2010, 09:13 AM
I am curious, are you also in favor of kensai 2 fighters using daggers, so that we may appreciate kopesh more?

Megtj
03-10-2010, 09:19 AM
I am curious, are you also in favor of kensai 2 fighters using daggers, so that we may appreciate kopesh more?

So witty. Still apples and oranges.

Tarnoc
03-10-2010, 09:26 AM
is firewall game breaking ....

not anymore then say fod...
should they nerf it nope

do mobs move outta fire walls yes many do....and even better in epic wizking the casters will cast firewall on the blocking line ....hmm pretty smart even mobs carry fw

to the op please explain to us all wat a caster should be if not verstile to fod mbs they can fw others coc fire immunes or the like?

would you rather see the cleric whose being forced to heal dps and you having to drink pots because hes outta mana 5 mins into a 50 min quest lol

right lets all just jump arround chassing mobs that the caster has ****ed of with magic missles or the like

and heres the big question you say casters shouldnt be dps but arent insta death spells ultimately dps....they kill 10k hp in one shot thus that 10k damage per second ;)

you dont like firewall then why not solo all the content heal yourself and not use firewall good luck with undead known to be suseptable to fire hmmm.....is firewalling a door cheesy imo NO

why its a viable tactic wen the other option is alot of mellee damage thus making clerics suck the all mighty pots......so why whine about a spell that helps clerics mitigate damage

keep in mind wen the meelle and clerics drop your sorc/wizzy is next if not first lol

Kyrn
03-11-2010, 12:22 AM
Strawman argument...

is firewall game breaking ....

not anymore then say fod...
should they nerf it nope

do mobs move outta fire walls yes many do....and even better in epic wizking the casters will cast firewall on the blocking line ....hmm pretty smart even mobs carry fw
Only ranged do, and that is not because they want to, but because it's part of their "jump everywhere" AI. Mobs without the "jump everywhere" AI don't attempt to dodge. On that note though, I've seen some smart AI cast sleetstorm on firewalls, though admittedly I don't know if they'd also cast it regardless without the firewall present.

to the op please explain to us all wat a caster should be if not verstile to fod mbs they can fw others coc fire immunes or the like?
What a wiz or sorc does is dependent on your build, period. Alternative to firewall (fire/ice) builds include instakill builds, charm builds, CC/Debuff builds, the jack-of-all-trades (trains a little in both fire/ice and lightning/acid), the not-as-viable force or lightning/acid builds...

would you rather see the cleric whose being forced to heal dps and you having to drink pots because hes outta mana 5 mins into a 50 min quest lol
Crowd control and instakill are more effective than firewall at preventing damage, period.

right lets all just jump arround chassing mobs that the caster has ****ed of with magic missles or the like
Strawman argument; plenty of other spells available

and heres the big question you say casters shouldnt be dps but arent insta death spells ultimately dps....they kill 10k hp in one shot thus that 10k damage per second ;)
No one ever said it's about not being DPS. It's about firewall being overly effective compared to other forms of DPS. This also includes instakill spells: a fully buffed firewall can easily do 250-500 damage, per tick, AoE. Not to mention it being cheaper than said instakill spells even taking into consideration maximize and empower (since they'll likely be fully enhanced).

you dont like firewall then why not solo all the content heal yourself and not use firewall good luck with undead known to be suseptable to fire hmmm.....is firewalling a door cheesy imo NO
Hold undead. Smack with heavy maces on skelles, or khopeshes on zombies. Repeat. Note that this is particularly effective on fire-immune skeletons. Of cause this can't handle red-names, but there's the option to just scorching-ray that to death.

why its a viable tactic wen the other option is alot of mellee damage thus making clerics suck the all mighty pots......so why whine about a spell that helps clerics mitigate damage
Learn to CC/Debuff.

keep in mind wen the meelle and clerics drop your sorc/wizzy is next if not first lol
Learn to CC/Debuff.

Spisey
03-11-2010, 12:47 AM
wen the meelle and clerics drop your sorc/wizzy is next if not first lol


Let em die! I'll DD and come back to rez em... :p

quantum0d0
03-11-2010, 12:57 AM
I have of course noticed that Firewall is pretty indispensible . . . but I'm no expert on 'DPS' and all this real-time stuff, just a long time D&D player.

Which prompts me to ask this - Where is Wall of Ice? And Plantwall (Wall of Thorns, was it?) And where are all the other Wall spells?

It seems to me that Earth Elementals and such might not be all that hurt by a Firewall, whereas a Wall of Thorns might crack them up, in a bad way.

I think just spreading out the Walls a little bit, making them more specialized in what they hurt (and how and why) might alleviate some of this 'did you bring firewall' thing . . . I don't think there are too many firewalls, just not enough of the others.

And while I'm on walls, why can't Thieves climb them again? Spider-man can.

Rakian_Knight
03-11-2010, 01:18 AM
I agree with the simple fact that firewall is a crutch for the wizard cut-outs that flood the game. However, I don't think it needs to be removed, just we need more spells that WORK! For example, if create undead didn't have the HUGE fail chance that it has with your created undead attacking you or being so weak for the lvl that you cast the spell, we would use it.

What we need, is more effective and different STYLES of spells. In the pen and paper system I rarely had two wizards who played the same simply because WIZARDS HAVE THE ABILITY TO SPECIALIZE IN A SCHOOL OF MAGIC. We need to use this because this was one of the main differences between wizards and scorcerers, wizards could specialize as an Abjurer, Conjurer, Diviner, Enchanter, Evoker, Illusionist, Necromancer, or Transmuter scorcerers couldn't. With the spells we have now, we can only become Conjurers, Enchanters, or Evokers (maybe necromancers but the game doesn't support them well). However, most wizards are the Evoker who has 1000 sp out of 1300 devoted to FIREWALL and the rest are buffs and a couple other spells that they might use like flesh to stone and disentegrate. Now I understand that we can't just play like we do in pen and paper (so Diviner is out) but that still leaves Abjurers, Illusionist (one I really want to see come out), Necromancers (they try but roll a 1 every time with this), and Transmuters (someone who can do something besides flesh to stone).

I've tried to make my wizard something besides the standard cookie cutter wizard and have succeeded in creating a level 16 pale master necromancer who is killed by a lvl 1 fighter who has death ward cast on him (j/k I use trap the soul in that case but you get the idea). I love this character simply because, I DON'T USE FIREWALL UNLESS I NEED TOO! In most cases a well place fear spell works (just have fun if someone tries to chase them down into a large hoard and pulls all the aggro at once).

In short, Firewall isn't the problem, it is that the wizards that play can't find any other way to play besides to spam firewalls.

noinfo
03-12-2010, 01:02 AM
Rushing an opponent that just hacked down your friends is hardly the same as avoiding a static obstacle. The barbarian might as well pursue the mobs, in which case a last charge may be the only viable option left to our poor, beleagered friends. However, what rationale would motivate an enemy to remain inside a wall of fire while there are plenty of alternative spots available, that may not be ablaze?

Of course it it, both a self preservation techniques. The barbarian 1 shots one of their friends basicallly cutting him in 2, of course they would run, they dont run because chasing mobs is not fun, hence why fearsome is not poplular. As far as options yep the barb may chase them but they dont have to necessarily out run the barb they only have to be faster than their remaining freinds...

noinfo
03-12-2010, 01:05 AM
What we need, is more effective and different STYLES of spells.


This



In short, Firewall isn't the problem, it is that the wizards that play can't find any other way to play besides to spam firewalls.

Fixed this should read

In short, Firewall isn't the problem, it is that the wizards that play have not got the spell selection and often can't find any other way to deal effectively with a mob in terms of dps then to spam firewalls.

noinfo
03-12-2010, 01:13 AM
Maybe if you're casting at solitary monsters. Put 10 monsters in a wall of fire....nobody touches it.

Over a sustained period against non resistant non immune mobs with a crit firewall yes.

Kyrn
03-12-2010, 01:55 AM
Over a sustained period against non resistant non immune undead mobs with a crit firewall yes.

Fixed.

irivan
03-12-2010, 03:38 AM
This spell, and spells like it...but mostly this spell, have become a crutch for the developers.

When Sorcs and frequently wizards are less a DPS class and more a "Spam Firewall here!" class, something has gone horribly wrong.

Don't believe me? Go play a Sorc from level 1 to level 20 without ever picking up firewall or a similar spell. See how frequently you get attacked, ridiculed, thrown out of groups, or simply thought of as stupid. I can think of no other spell with the possible exception of haste, and often not even then" that will result in the "You don't have firewall?" lecture.

And the worse of it is Devs have fed into this playstyle. Because it serves as a bandaid. It lets the devs call Sorcs and frequently wizards a DPS class while allowing them to gloss over the fact that it's not so much DPS as it is a "Spam Firewall here!" class.


And that's just sloppy and poor game design.

Dont be mad, just because you cant get a kill in.

evolve!!

prowessss
03-14-2010, 06:55 AM
YOU LEAVE MY FIREWALL ALONE!!!
lol seriously? this is a ridiculous thread. I will agree that firewall is basically the best thing an arcane can have at level 4... but it is not the endall you make it out to be.

Spisey
03-14-2010, 06:58 AM
I'm just mad that I can no longer help the OP farm red dots.... :(

He no longer has a rep symbol for me to spontaneously return to. :confused:

Hendrik
03-14-2010, 07:58 AM
I'm just mad that I can no longer help the OP farm red dots.... :(

He no longer has a rep symbol for me to spontaneously return to. :confused:


Scared that the bad ideas would continue to grant neg rep resulting in moderation.

;)

ddoer
03-14-2010, 09:20 AM
Well then, let's keep goin with other crutches that should be removed due to their blatant over-use and stereotypical group expectations:

Pally - Smite Evil.

Cleric - Heal, Mass cures.

Bard - Songs.

Barbarian - Raging.

Fighter - Swinging a weapon in general.

There we go. That should about do it.


You forgot Rangers - Ranged attacks


And rangers: tempest (TWF) Let's just take all the damage out of the game and give everyone foam bats to beat on stuff. That would balance the game.

Rogue - Sneak attack

and Epic SoS should give 2 neg level.

asphodeli
03-14-2010, 10:28 AM
Magic seems to be an afterthought tacked onto this game, at the rate it is going. Reviewing all the direct-damage spells in-game would be a better solution rather than removing wall of fire.