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View Full Version : Weapon Finesse Revisted



noinfo
03-02-2010, 04:01 AM
Obviously not been able to log into the game for a couple of days so too much time on my hands;

Anyway

Several weeks ago (maybe longer now) there was a thread on Weapon Finesse, my idea here was originally from that thread but posted here for individual discussion. (If you have your own specific idea for it that does not specifically relate to my proposal make a new thread, but if you have ideas or modifications around this core idea please post)


Finesse based weapons should automatically use the higher of dex or str bonuses to hit. The finesse base feat should allow use of all weapons to use the higher of dex or str.

Now this is hardly game breaking and tends to follow the intent as they moved toward the (I don't want to mention it, 4ed)

Looking at basic proficiency in those weapons it is often hard to see how they could be used in a brute force approach anyway (ok I can see the Psycho shower scene for daggers :-p) but a rapier? Now while an arguement could be made for these to only use dex regardless, I am not up for nerfing and believe it would be reasonable for these weapons to automatically use the higher of the two stats.

This brings me too the weapon finesse feat. The feat could unlock all weapons capacity to be finessed (ok not really seeing how dex and great axes go together) or set of normally non finessable weapons to become available. This is not changing significant damage output but providing a wider variety of choices. A khopesh in the hands of a finesse build still uses str for damage, though they may hit more often (and effectively cost 2 feats to obtain anyway)

Anderei
03-02-2010, 04:03 AM
In other words, every character should get the weapon finesse feat for free.

Lauraliane
03-02-2010, 04:04 AM
A bit off topic, but I would kill for a 4th Edition DDO ;)

As a lead game designer myself, I am a huge fan of the new game balance and mechanics they implemented. They feel really smooth and well thought.

First PnP RPG that feel like it was designed as a video game (which of course is making the D&D 3.5 fanatics scream in horror)

noinfo
03-02-2010, 04:05 AM
In other words, every character should get the weapon finesse feat for free.

Weapon finesse as currently implemented. The feat would remain as above.

noinfo
03-02-2010, 04:09 AM
A bit off topic, but I would kill for a 4th Edition DDO ;)

As a lead game designer myself, I am a huge fan of the new game balance and mechanics they implemented. They feel really smooth and well thought.

First PnP RPG that feel like it was designed as a video game (which of course is making the D&D 3.5 fanatics scream in horror)

Oh please why did you post this? This is gunna kill the thread before it starts.

Uska
03-02-2010, 04:17 AM
A bit off topic, but I would kill for a 4th Edition DDO ;)

As a lead game designer myself, I am a huge fan of the new game balance and mechanics they implemented. They feel really smooth and well thought.

First PnP RPG that feel like it was designed as a video game (which of course is making the D&D 3.5 fanatics scream in horror)


Yah I would kill for a 4E mmo myself that is
rather play russian roultte with an automatic pistol then play 4E

that being said what the op was talking about has nothing to do with 4E and it is a shame you brought that vile subject up.

Oh just as a side note not a 3.x fanatic I prefer 1st ed ad&d and HMB myself


to op I dont agree with you but it wouldnt bug me to much if it happened.

noinfo
03-02-2010, 04:26 AM
to op I dont agree with you but it wouldnt bug me to much if it happened.

At the moment Uska the finesse are pretty much behind the 8 ball in a few areas, this is not going to change things signifcantly and won't impact negatively on any other build. You are not going to find any finesse based Kensai or Barberians :-)

Aspenor
03-02-2010, 10:52 AM
Yes, this is a long overdue change and I agree 100,000,000%.

grodon9999
03-02-2010, 11:08 AM
What I would do it make all "Finesse" weapons work off of dex for free, but if you take the weapon finesse feat, you get a STACKABLE seeker bonus equal to half your dex bonus. This accounts for the more precise strikes of a finesse weapon.

Baahb3
03-02-2010, 11:13 AM
/not signed

It takes much more skill to strike through finesse then power, thus you need a feat to do so, and the idea that the feat then would unlock all weapons or even a set of normally non-finessable weapons is laughable IMO.

It is one feat, and all it seams like is that finess builds cannot get all the feats they want into their build so they want one for free.

How about if you have a dex of 15 you get TWF for free because anyone with that much dexterity would naturally be able to fight with 2 weapons.:eek:

Come on, if you want that type of character take the feat and be done with it, don't say we need another major adjustment to the rules/combat system just so you can get in that 'other' feat you want.

Baahb3
03-02-2010, 11:17 AM
What I would do it make all "Finesse" weapons work off of dex for free, but if you take the weapon finesse feat, you get a STACKABLE seeker bonus equal to half your dex bonus. This accounts for the more precise strikes of a finesse weapon.

Sorry but that is an even worse idea than allowing it to open up non-finessable weapons. Many finesse builds have dex scores in the mid 30s, that is like giving all of them a free epic bloodstone that does not take up any equipment slots.

And have it be stackable with other sources, wow, not to sound too harsh but did you really think about this suggestion before you posted it?

Cyr
03-02-2010, 11:30 AM
/signed

Along this same theory I would suggest a new feat that you purchase per weapon that would make a weapon that normally makes you uncentered allow you to be centered when using it.

grodon9999
03-02-2010, 01:48 PM
Sorry but that is an even worse idea than allowing it to open up non-finessable weapons. Many finesse builds have dex scores in the mid 30s, that is like giving all of them a free epic bloodstone that does not take up any equipment slots.

And have it be stackable with other sources, wow, not to sound too harsh but did you really think about this suggestion before you posted it?


I generally don't think to hard before posting. Thinking is work, this is play. I still don't think it's unreasonable compared to some of the other methods of getting obscene DPS in this game.

Maybe to balance it don't allow power-attack on finesse weapons.

noinfo
03-02-2010, 09:24 PM
/not signed

It takes much more skill to strike through finesse then power, thus you need a feat to do so, and the idea that the feat then would unlock all weapons or even a set of normally non-finessable weapons is laughable IMO.

It is one feat, and all it seams like is that finess builds cannot get all the feats they want into their build so they want one for free.

How about if you have a dex of 15 you get TWF for free because anyone with that much dexterity would naturally be able to fight with 2 weapons.:eek:

Come on, if you want that type of character take the feat and be done with it, don't say we need another major adjustment to the rules/combat system just so you can get in that 'other' feat you want.

Sorry your argument is fundamentally flawed. The users of these weapons ALREADY have proficiency in them, ie they know how to use them properly. They are finesse weapons for a reason, you do not use a rapier as you would great axe and yet you get a strength bonus to attack. Now I am getting images of the Psycho shower scene but this time with a rapier being used in place of the knife :-p

sigtrent
03-02-2010, 09:45 PM
While it is a bit limiting its one of those rules that gives the game some character and adds an element of thought to character building.

In PnP many proposed feats that granted finesse with a given weapon, but in regular D&D base weapon damage is slightly more important. (one area where 4E made a small improvement is keeping base weapon damage relevant at higher levels)

Finesse in DDO is pretty limited in use, but certainly it makes some characters possible that otherwise wouldn't be. Its key for my fighter wizard and its handy for my elven rogue (who pumps str but usually has a bit more dex regardless)

noinfo
03-02-2010, 10:14 PM
While it is a bit limiting its one of those rules that gives the game some character and adds an element of thought to character building.

In PnP many proposed feats that granted finesse with a given weapon, but in regular D&D base weapon damage is slightly more important. (one area where 4E made a small improvement is keeping base weapon damage relevant at higher levels)

Finesse in DDO is pretty limited in use, but certainly it makes some characters possible that otherwise wouldn't be. Its key for my fighter wizard and its handy for my elven rogue (who pumps str but usually has a bit more dex regardless)

Actually from a long term player of PnP (not saying you or others in the thread are not either) Weapon Finesse seems like a tack on to try and deal with the long term issue from other editions of strength being the only way for melee to determine to hit. Earlier issues was less of an issue as the bonus to hit was a max of 7 from strength anyway (and most of the time it was only 3 max if you had 18/00 str) and ac really capped at -10. With changes to move to the d20 system many dex over str characters were going to suffer, so they seem to think of how can we address this. I believe (and this is only my opinion) that had there been further updates to 3rd ed there would have been a move similar to what I am suggesting as opposed to the attempted fix given by the feat.

When judging the proposal:
will it benefit DDO
will it nerf anyones current build
will it result in a toon becoming OP

Calebro
03-02-2010, 10:45 PM
I think a better idea would be to introduce the Shadow Blade feat from Bo9S, or a slight variation thereof.
Not any of the classes or maneuvers (as there are much more important things to add first) but just that feat alone would solve a LOT of the problems that a Dex based build faces later in the game.

gavagai
03-02-2010, 10:55 PM
will it benefit DDO

My personal feelings aside, I don't think it benefits or worsens the game, with a few caveats to follow.


will it result in a toon becoming OP

There are two parts to your petition: a) make finesse weapons automatically finesseable from start, and b) allow the weapon finesse feat, when taken, to use your Dex on any melee weapon.

I can stomach (A), though I don't really like it. It will favor rogues and rogue builds, since they are the only class that can spike Dex while still delivering DPS. And Rogues can already afford Weapon Finesse. Other than that, I can't see it overpowering anything since no finesse character is likely to be overpowered.

But I have trouble accepting the logic behind (B) -- allowing Dex Kopesh wielders and Dex Greataxe swingers. It stretches the spirit of the 6-stat system a little too far to say a ballerina can just finesse herself to efficacy with a weapon that weighs about as much as she does.

Now why would this matter? Only a fool would spike Dex on a character and then spend two feats getting WF and Kopesh, right?

Well, we should consider the "Pale Master effect." If something is available, people will be inclined to think its good.

Weapon Finesse isn't just a feat. It is a build philosophy. In narrow circumstances, it is effective; but in DDO, it frequently isn't. How likely would removing the cost of applying Weapon Finesse lead to more underpowered toons? Personally, I'd rather see more effective Dex-based toons than simply more Dex based toons, and making WF free doesn't do anything to make that happen.

So basically: the classes and builds that actually benefit from Weapon Finesse can already afford it. Those that can't probably shouldn't be tempted to pursue it. Free weapon finesse really doesn't hurt anyone, so I could manage it. But if AC/DPS issues were ever re-balanced, free WF might be too powerful.

But for the love of all that is holy, no Finesse for non-finesse weapons! Don't be swayed by the 6STR Halfling Greataxe Barbarians, it's not a good idea!

noinfo
03-03-2010, 02:00 AM
My personal feelings aside, I don't think it benefits or worsens the game, with a few caveats to follow.



There are two parts to your petition: a) make finesse weapons automatically finesseable from start, and b) allow the weapon finesse feat, when taken, to use your Dex on any melee weapon.

I can stomach (A), though I don't really like it. It will favor rogues and rogue builds, since they are the only class that can spike Dex while still delivering DPS. And Rogues can already afford Weapon Finesse. Other than that, I can't see it overpowering anything since no finesse character is likely to be overpowered.

But I have trouble accepting the logic behind (B) -- allowing Dex Kopesh wielders and Dex Greataxe swingers. It stretches the spirit of the 6-stat system a little too far to say a ballerina can just finesse herself to efficacy with a weapon that weighs about as much as she does.

Now why would this matter? Only a fool would spike Dex on a character and then spend two feats getting WF and Kopesh, right?

Well, we should consider the "Pale Master effect." If something is available, people will be inclined to think its good.

Weapon Finesse isn't just a feat. It is a build philosophy. In narrow circumstances, it is effective; but in DDO, it frequently isn't. How likely would removing the cost of applying Weapon Finesse lead to more underpowered toons? Personally, I'd rather see more effective Dex-based toons than simply more Dex based toons, and making WF free doesn't do anything to make that happen.

So basically: the classes and builds that actually benefit from Weapon Finesse can already afford it. Those that can't probably shouldn't be tempted to pursue it. Free weapon finesse really doesn't hurt anyone, so I could manage it. But if AC/DPS issues were ever re-balanced, free WF might be too powerful.

But for the love of all that is holy, no Finesse for non-finesse weapons! Don't be swayed by the 6STR Halfling Greataxe Barbarians, it's not a good idea!

Your point about AC/DPS reballance is not exactly valid as the only aspect to worry about is to hit and not damage. Infact finesse further miss out on effects such as Kensai, Barberian, Madstone and Titan boosts to hit from it being based off dex anyway, there are no dex based alternatives.

Your arguent for finesse based 6 str halfling greataxe barbarians is quite funny, considering yes they are gimped but how much less than a finesse one. If someone is determined to build a toon a certain way get over yourself and let them do it. They will soon find out if it works or not. Of course if you want to go down that road have devs make the minimum con 14 on every toon. Or if Melee force them to be a barbarian.

Do I find it a stretch for a halfling dex build to weild a great axe? only about as much as I do a raging barbarian to be weilding a rapier

gavagai
03-03-2010, 02:31 PM
Your point about AC/DPS reballance is not exactly valid as the only aspect to worry about is to hit and not damage. Infact finesse further miss out on effects such as Kensai, Barberian, Madstone and Titan boosts to hit from it being based off dex anyway, there are no dex based alternatives.

A while back, stat-effect weapons killed mobs, making a high Dex rogue with stat-affect rapiers extremely lethal. Vorpal weapons worked on any critical hit, meaning (again) as long as you hit the mob, you didn't worry as much about DPS. Assassin III vorpal effect is awesome on a Dex rogue until you hit the areaas where mobs are flat-out immune to it.

The point about rebalancing was this: if they ever rebalanced away from DPS-fest mechanics by improving those non-DPS options, then having DEX automatically provide AC, saves, and to-hit might be a little overpowered. Or rather: the benefit of using one's Dex to hit would be worth one feat.


Your argument for finesse based 6 str halfling greataxe barbarians is quite funny, considering yes they are gimped but how much less than a finesse one. If someone is determined to build a toon a certain way get over yourself and let them do it. They will soon find out if it works or not. Of course if you want to go down that road have devs make the minimum con 14 on every toon. Or if Melee force them to be a barbarian.

I have nothing against gimpy, flavor builds. I make them all the time, believe me! My TWF Elven Sorc/Paladin/Rog is happily 7/2/1; next on the list is a dual Warhammer stun n' smite Paladin based on Shadowbane's Sentinel class.

I bolded the part above that is relevant. I don't think Turbine should encourage players to play "challenging" characters; we should make our own informed choices to try the more challenging route. That is why so many feel frustrated with the game's default paths: they start players with needlessly challenging builds before they understand why these builds are so challenging.

Weapon Finesse encourages players to pump Dex. Free weapon finesse will encourage new players who otherwise don't fully grasp game mechanics to play melee characters with high Dex and low STR. Players are already frustrated that DDO has little love for Dex-based/AC builds, and making more such characters will probably exacerbate the irritation.

Meanwhile, the benefit seems small. Rogues, monks, and a handful of complex builds would find a free weapon finesse refreshing. But the only ones that couldn't otherwise afford it are the Dex-pumped Paladin/splash, Rog/Ranger builds, and bard variety.

I don't want to sound like a rules puritan or a bully, but we're looking at a break from 3.5 rules here to make Dex more useful, and thus encourage Dex-pumping. And the best reason I've seen Devs should invest their time changing it is "so that more players find out finesse builds don't work in more situations than we had thought before."

Like I said, I don't oppose free Weapon Finesse. I'd rather Turbine implemented changes that actually downplayed DPS and benefited Dex-based melee.

Calebro
03-03-2010, 02:37 PM
Or they could just introduce a variation of the Shadow Blade feat and call it even.
It would cost two feats to make these characters viable, but they'd once again actually be viable.

grodon9999
03-03-2010, 02:59 PM
Or they could just introduce a variation of the Shadow Blade feat and call it even.
It would cost two feats to make these characters viable, but they'd once again actually be viable.

What is that? My PnP books stopped at 2nd edition. A Google search leads me to believe they simply attack faster?

Calebro
03-03-2010, 03:02 PM
What is that? My PnP books stopped at 2nd edition. A Google search leads me to believe they simply attack faster?

Just started a thread about it. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=234744)