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Delacroix21
02-25-2010, 10:04 PM
Now I can see why epic mobs AC has been increased, as it encourages you to do a signifigant amount of farming to increase your to hit in order to be viable (barbs and fighters not so much).


The to-hit of these mobs however is absolutely STUPID. Buffed to 73ac in Von 1 epic and the named Minotaur at the begining hitting me every single swing.


Now I expect the same "song and dance" from the ZERO AC barbs that run epics of how this is balanced, because it doesnt effect them in any way. I AGREE Epic is supposed to be for the best with the best gear, but that ac IS with most of the best gear DDO has to offer! Not even a 5% reduction in being hit!


So dont come here and post your BS about how epic isnt for every kind of build, because you dont care that none of this effects your ZERO ac barbs and fighters. Epic needs to still be balanced enough to cater to more builds as high AC toons obviously have less HP. Besides, nerfing monsters to hit will in no way effect the zero AC builds anyway.



If you wish to keep mechanics as they are then provide me with a TR on my toon and 20 levels of xp so I can be a max str/con barb myself!



P.S. I am seriously curious if the Devs actually PLAY ddo at all.

Guildmaster_Kadish
02-25-2010, 10:06 PM
/signed

There's no reason to have one class or a few classes strictly better in endgame content than others--even if AC isn't ideal for epic and the 0-AC high hp builds are better, AC should have some effect.

Shade
02-25-2010, 10:08 PM
The to-hit of these mobs however is absolutely STUPID. Buffed to 73ac in Von 1 epic and the named Minotaur at the begining hitting me every single swing.


There sposed to miss an incredibly low AC of 73?

No.

Epic is for the best of the best, it clearly says that in the quest panel as you enter.

Best AC in the game: 130+
You barely even HALF that, and you want to be missed?

It's a d20 system, if your not within 20 points of the BEST, reroll and try again.

Delacroix21
02-25-2010, 10:11 PM
There sposed to miss an incredibly low AC of 73?

No.

Epic is for the best of the best, it clearly says that in the quest panel as you enter.

Best AC in the game: 130+
You not even HALF that, and you want to be missed?

It's a d20 system, if your not within 20 points of the BEST, reroll and try again.

Once again you show you dont know anything about AC. 130 is the most situational, garbage, tumbling, action boosts, clickies, etc. AC that has NO purpose in ddo.


BTW whats your AC... 18?

Guildmaster_Kadish
02-25-2010, 10:13 PM
There sposed to miss an incredibly low AC of 73?

No.

Epic is for the best of the best, it clearly says that in the quest panel as you enter.

Following that logic, you should need to have a constant strength of 90, with recitation, prayer, bard buffs, etc. on 100% of the time to hit things all the time on epic.

Your 130 AC number is something that can maybe be kept up for 15 seconds, as much as perhaps a minute through an entire quest, with several other party members specifically boosting it. If you think that anything should be balanced against such a number, I don't know what to say other than this: it's just ridiculous.


Best AC in the game: 130+
You not even HALF that, and you want to be missed?

130/2 = 65. Just in case you were wondering.

Delacroix21
02-25-2010, 10:18 PM
Your 130 AC number is something that can maybe be kept up for 15 seconds
130/2 = 65. Just in case you were wondering.


Only a dwarf vs. giants while tumbling btw.


IN FACT...
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173504&highlight=ac


That thread contains the highest AC's reachable, and they all depend on every buff in the game, blocking, tumbling, specific race vs. monster, action boost, etc.

Guildmaster_Kadish
02-25-2010, 10:22 PM
Attack bonus:
20 BAB
4 GH
1 Haste
8 Bardsong
2 Recitation
40 Str
1 Weapon Focus
1 Greater Weapon Focus
4 Destruction
8 Improved Destruction
5 Sundering Ooze
5 Improved Sunder
4 Hero's Companion
+103

Yeah... I suppose epic monsters should have 100-110 AC too, eh? Heck maybe even more with the attack chain bonus....

uhgungawa
02-25-2010, 10:37 PM
Don't worry guys and gals, that's just Axer talking out his backside again. But the truth is AC got it's final straw broke with the release of Monks. When a fighter/pallyor ranger type will ht AC in the 40's and then a monk or monk mix will hit in the 80's there is a problem. This game works on a D20 system and when the average spread is in the 40's it just means that the overall mechanics don't jive.

As far as Epic AC goes, if you're hitting in the mid 80's and get hit only half the time being 10 AC less than that would mean you're going to get hit on everything but a 1. You can't have an invincible AC for Epic, now that would be broke.

Roman
02-25-2010, 11:01 PM
1 person doing AC debuffing is a huge DPS boost to the entire group. -17 AC is possible with Destruction + Imp Destruction + Sundering Ooze GS weapon. Everyone can turn on PA at that point and only miss on a 1.

As for AC in epic, I've just learned to move more. Mobs swing slow and you can avoid a lot of damage by just flanking.

Jay203
02-25-2010, 11:02 PM
Don't worry guys and gals, that's just Axer talking out his backside again. But the truth is AC got it's final straw broke with the release of Monks. When a fighter/pallyor ranger type will ht AC in the 40's and then a monk or monk mix will hit in the 80's there is a problem. This game works on a D20 system and when the average spread is in the 40's it just means that the overall mechanics don't jive.

As far as Epic AC goes, if you're hitting in the mid 80's and get hit only half the time being 10 AC less than that would mean you're going to get hit on everything but a 1. You can't have an invincible AC for Epic, now that would be broke.

we all know Shade would solo everything if he could :D:D:D:D:D
hard to believe he puts up with my gimpy toons every now and then >=3

uhgungawa
02-25-2010, 11:07 PM
we all know Shade would solo everything if he could :D:D:D:D:D


Have you ever seen the beating he takes while on portal detail in shroud? He couldn't do water works on casual with less than three clerics to keep him up :eek:

Delacroix21
02-25-2010, 11:35 PM
As far as Epic AC goes, if you're hitting in the mid 80's and get hit only half the time being 10 AC less than that would mean you're going to get hit on everything but a 1. You can't have an invincible AC for Epic, now that would be broke.


Its balanced by these ac characters having signifigantly less HP.


You know I hear allot of noise about dodgeing mobs swings while swinging a 2-hander, but its a totally different experience when unarmed (which has an INCREDIBELY small range). Even still, I dodge as much as I can.


That being said, I can guarantee they arent "dodging" arretrikos, suul, etc. when dpsing. Nope, they are letting their massive barb HP soak up all the damage. Posting a video of them solo killing the stormreaver (like thats hard).

Jay203
02-26-2010, 01:11 AM
Have you ever seen the beating he takes while on portal detail in shroud? He couldn't do water works on casual with less than three clerics to keep him up :eek:

he's a rage/frenzy junkie :D:D:D:D

Angelus_dead
02-26-2010, 01:13 AM
P.S. I am seriously curious if the Devs actually PLAY ddo at all.
There's a big difference between playing DDO and playing epic DDO. It is easily possible for the devs to play lots of DDO but not to understand what epic is like.

There's also those who play epic mode but cheating to do it, which some devs have been observed to do.

noinfo
02-26-2010, 01:33 AM
Now I can see why epic mobs AC has been increased, as it encourages you to do a signifigant amount of farming to increase your to hit in order to be viable (barbs and fighters not so much).


The to-hit of these mobs however is absolutely STUPID. Buffed to 73ac in Von 1 epic and the named Minotaur at the begining hitting me every single swing.


Now I expect the same "song and dance" from the ZERO AC barbs that run epics of how this is balanced, because it doesnt effect them in any way. I AGREE Epic is supposed to be for the best with the best gear, but that ac IS with most of the best gear DDO has to offer! Not even a 5% reduction in being hit!


So dont come here and post your BS about how epic isnt for every kind of build, because you dont care that none of this effects your ZERO ac barbs and fighters. Epic needs to still be balanced enough to cater to more builds as high AC toons obviously have less HP. Besides, nerfing monsters to hit will in no way effect the zero AC builds anyway.



If you wish to keep mechanics as they are then provide me with a TR on my toon and 20 levels of xp so I can be a max str/con barb myself!



P.S. I am seriously curious if the Devs actually PLAY ddo at all.

See my post on the ac issue in this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=233557

bobbryan2
02-26-2010, 01:35 AM
There sposed to miss an incredibly low AC of 73?

No.

Epic is for the best of the best, it clearly says that in the quest panel as you enter.

Best AC in the game: 130+
You barely even HALF that, and you want to be missed?

It's a d20 system, if your not within 20 points of the BEST, reroll and try again.

Best of the best of the best sir!

With honors!

maddmatt70
02-26-2010, 02:49 AM
It is not so black and white.. 73ac is not good enough for epic red names and should not be. Did you notice though that the other minotaurs were missing you because they most certainly were. I know this because my mid 70s to 80s ac rogue gets missed by the trash in epic vons most to half the time. A red named on epic the ac should be 85 to miss half the time and if you can not get your ac that high then you have work to do sorry. For key red names lets say 90+ ac to miss you half the time.

RATRACE931
02-26-2010, 03:28 AM
I must agree with most here 73 AC is barely decent for tanking Horoth, why would that be good for epic red names? Doesn't make sense, a double TR AC build should be hovering around 80 with minimal party buffs imho that is what they mean by "Best of the Best"/

PS: Can't resist adding... that your right saying Epic content isnt for most builds is a little stupid... so instead ill just say this. If you need a quest ANY quest "nerfed" to make your build more viable, then the quest isn't for you.

epochofcrepuscule
02-26-2010, 03:43 AM
considering 73 ac you will still get spanked by suulo on elite.... why would it matter to much in epic? Yeah yeah, suulos a raad boss and a red name mino in vons isnt. Facts still remain, the best of the best in ddo laugh at a 73 ac for an ac character. Why? You may ask, because of thats your buffed ac with party member buffs its pretty sad for an ac build.

ou may want to read up on ac builds... you can have over 400 hp, a little over 80 ac, and still knock out a str of 26-32 depending on madstone boots and a +4 tome

Nerthus
02-26-2010, 03:52 AM
I think it's all about how much effort and grinding and carefully build characters are needed to accomplish a specific role in the party. The harder is it to get all the items, the most who they should be rewarded.

Melee DPS needs: very high str/th, one or two GS MinII weapon
AC needs: very high dex/wis (most of the time, both of them), a very carefully build character, the perfect party for buffs (and buffing you every time it's needed), at least one GS weapon with +4Insight, a TON of raid items.

Who should be rewarded in epic content? I think it's even convenient for Turbine (economically speaking -> Ehi I'm using the magic word!), because if you're after AC you need to buy a lot of adv. packs just to get that specific item or go VIP.

Seriously... I really can't see why AC builds are so mistreated. :(

Xezno
02-26-2010, 04:16 AM
Biggest problem i see with this game is AC. They have given us crazy high AC numbers over the years where only AC builds can have meaningful AC and those needs tons of gear.

I propose a radical idea: Move away from the 1d20. The 1d20 is meant for dnd AC and to hit numbers which are a lot smaller than the inflated numbers in ddo. If they expand to lets say a 1d40 on monster and player to hit while moving the to hit numbers of both players and monsters down with 20 to 30 points the game would be much more enjoyable. (the math and the dice would be a matter of balancing)

Then to hit would matter on all levels not just on epic, and even lower AC would give some protection. So instead of every AC giving 5% less chance of getting hit if you are within the 1d20 every point of AC gives 2,5% less chance of being hit - but even lower AC would matter.

One of the first toons i played was an AC based sorc. That was a lot of fun. In my oppinion every class should benefit from AC if they choose to focus on it (even barbs)

now a lot of dnd fans will probably bash this as they see the 1d20 as the holy grale. We left the dnd numbers a long time ago with all the crazy loot and enhancements that make AC numbers totally out of sync with dnd.

RATRACE931
02-26-2010, 04:18 AM
Seriously... I really can't see why AC builds are so mistreated. :(

Im sorry, but can you explain exactly how they are mistreated?

RATRACE931
02-26-2010, 04:22 AM
Biggest problem i see with this game is AC. They have given us crazy high AC numbers over the years where only AC builds can have meaningful AC and those needs tons of gear.

I propose a radical idea: Move away from the 1d20. The 1d20 is meant for dnd AC and to hit numbers which are a lot smaller than the inflated numbers in ddo. If they expand to lets say a 1d40 on monster and player to hit while moving the to hit numbers of both players and monsters down with 20 to 30 points the game would be much more enjoyable. (the math and the dice would be a matter of balancing)

Then to hit would matter on all levels not just on epic, and even lower AC would give some protection. So instead of every AC giving 5% less chance of getting hit if you are within the 1d20 every point of AC gives 2,5% less chance of being hit - but even lower AC would matter.

One of the first toons i played was an AC based sorc. That was a lot of fun. In my oppinion every class should benefit from AC if they choose to focus on it (even barbs)

now a lot of dnd fans will probably bash this as they see the 1d20 as the holy grale. We left the dnd numbers a long time ago with all the crazy loot and enhancements that make AC numbers totally out of sync with dnd.

I will agree our AC is out of sync with D&D, but I've never been shown evidance that AC is out of sync with DDO. Especially now with grazing hits. I don't think AC fits perfect in every situation but it about as close as you can get at the moment, considerin with a little dedication its easy to attain over 80 ac party buffed and 500+ hps.

blitzschlag
02-26-2010, 04:22 AM
Im sorry, but can you explain exactly how they are mistreated?

i think because his 73 ac get cut like paper

RATRACE931
02-26-2010, 04:25 AM
i think because his 73 ac get cut like paper

O.K. but I think we already established 73 ac on hard and elite even before mod 9 wasnt great, the fact that the OP is complaining thathis low AC is to low for the "Most Difficult" quests in the game is rediculous.

Nerthus
02-26-2010, 04:36 AM
i think because his 73 ac get cut like paper

82 and still get cut like paper. ;)
The problem is not only in the AC number... even if you can reach the high AC numbers epic content requests right now your dps will suffer greatly -> so you'll need to get intimidate to high values and spam it, or you'll never being hit not because of AC but because the mobs will basically ignore you.

How funny, right? You are supposed to grind like crazy, to invest all your feats and classes in the perfect AC build and the result will not even be fun to play! It's a choice, sure, but such a painful choice should be rewarded greatly and a med dps-good AC should have his own spot and not feel so gimped.

blitzschlag
02-26-2010, 04:42 AM
82 and still get cut like paper. ;)
The problem is not only in the AC number... even if you can reach the high AC numbers epic content requests right now your dps will suffer greatly -> so you'll need to get intimidate to high values and spam it, or you'll never being hit not because of AC but because the mobs will basically ignore you.

How funny, right? You are supposed to grind like crazy, to invest all your feats and classes in the perfect AC build and the result will not even be fun to play! It's a choice, sure, but such a painful choice should be rewarded greatly, imho.

hey cmon mate. thats what mmo's are all about. constant change. superior ac builds were killer before glancing blows, good after and medicore with epic. just adapt and move on. it wouldnt be the first char you shelfed for better times, would it?

don't get me wrong, i don't like the cheapish way theyre "creating" "new" content by just inflating hp/resistance/dps of existing midlvl content that has been run to death and undeath long before and call it EPIC.

RATRACE931
02-26-2010, 05:00 AM
82 and still get cut like paper. ;)
The problem is not only in the AC number... even if you can reach the high AC numbers epic content requests right now your dps will suffer greatly -> so you'll need to get intimidate to high values and spam it, or you'll never being hit not because of AC but because the mobs will basically ignore you.

How funny, right? You are supposed to grind like crazy, to invest all your feats and classes in the perfect AC build and the result will not even be fun to play! It's a choice, sure, but such a painful choice should be rewarded greatly and a med dps-good AC should have his own spot and not feel so gimped.

If you want to see your AC character be a unhitable juggernaught of destruction might i rcommend you go run around in Vale? or Amrath? Epic is supposed to be just that, Epic. I'm not sure what part of that name implies "Hey yeah grind for a few months on your 28-32 point build you just made and step right in and trio this with nothing but AC builds". Thats not what Epic is about. As someone who has played this game since before it launch i find Epic a refreshing flashbck to quests like Elite Tempest Spine back when a +5 weapon meant you could hit on a 9, or Remembers when Velah could whipe a whole group in one foul swoop, or even the fact that it took what over a month to beat Titan even once?

I'm sick and tired of people whinning and moaning that something is to difficult, we all ask for a challenge and when its presented you get jacka%$ess complaing that it is an actual challenge. This isn't WoW, most of the old time players do not WANT the quests to even be remotely easy or simplistic. Listen if you find Epic not to be fun, don't do it.

You can have Casual, we'll take Epic.

Angelus_dead
02-26-2010, 05:11 AM
O.K. but I think we already established 73 ac on hard and elite
No. Both before and after mod 9, a 73 AC was enough to make lots of hard mode enemies miss 95% of attacks. Quite a few Shavarath bosses have a +45 attack.

Angelus_dead
02-26-2010, 05:15 AM
but that ac IS with most of the best gear DDO has to offer! Not even a 5% reduction in being hit!
The fix to the problem would not be as simple as just subtracting some number from the attack rolls of those monsters.

What they need to do is increase the range of ACs that are meaningful against a specific enemy to more than just 18 numbers. Two simple steps would be quasi-iterative monster attacks and fortification against confirmation. Once things like that were done, the attack bonuses of those mobs could be decreased a little without nerfing them too much against ultra-AC characters.

sephiroth1084
02-26-2010, 05:15 AM
/signed

I haven't run my AC tank through epic VoNs, but in Epic desert quests an AC in the mid-70s was pretty much worthless, as everything that I encountered while testing AC mode was just tearing through me. Now, it's been a while, so I don't recall which monsters I was trying this with, but it wasn't named monsters, it was the regular stuff encountered throughout the quest.

In fact, I think it was on a run with Axer through DQ 1. He *****ed that I should take off my shield because it wasn't going to do anything, and I ignored him since he generally has little idea about AC, but after a fight or two I switched to my 2-hander. Probably tried the AC thing another time or two before completely giving up.

Now, my character didn't have the highest reasonably attainable AC at the time (buffed to probably about 78 and not in defensive stance), but reasonable AC doesn't get much higher than that. If the devs are concerned about the 90 AC guys having an easy time of things, they need not worry, because those guys have sacrificed their HP, attack bonus, saves, and/or DPS, which means that they may avoid getting slammed by the brutes, but they won't be able to take anything down and the casters will eat them up.

AC-based characters currently have virtually no place in epic content right now, which is a shame, because this stuff should challenge everyone to build to the task and perform, not invalidate nearly everyone. Interestingly, this is the same problem with epic traps: even rogues who have devoted some AP and gear to trapsmithing above the standard fare still can't even get close to hitting the epic trap DCs.

Perhaps it's time to incorporate scaling attack bonuses for monsters? High-AC monsters can pose a reasonable challenge because their defense is applied vs. an attack bonus +/-10 to allow for iterative attacks to get through; however, their attack bonuses don't work the same and result in a fairly static breaking point for AC, where there aren't these shades of viability outside of the d20. Currently if a monster can hit a particular AC 95% of the time, then only ACs 1-18 points higher are worth anything, whereas in the reverse case, a player who can hit a monster 95% of the time sets the bar such that anyone with 1-28 less attack bonus can still hit the thing.

I don't mind epic setting a new bar for these things, and being challenging, but if the bar is too high to be reached by anything but unrealistic characters it doesn't encourage any better or even more challenging gameplay necessarily, just narrower play.

RATRACE931
02-26-2010, 05:18 AM
No. Both before and after mod 9, a 73 AC was enough to make lots of hard mode enemies miss 95% of attacks. Quite a few Shavarath bosses have a +45 attack.

I'm tired I will admitt that i failed to type what was in my mind, i was thinking "Raid Boss", Hard/Elite Suulomades will hit a 73 AC quite easily, as will Harry if not quite as easily and Horoth wont even acknowledge your 73 on hard/elite.

Nerthus
02-26-2010, 05:41 AM
I'm sick and tired of people whinning and moaning that something is to difficult, we all ask for a challenge and when its presented you get jacka%$ess complaing that it is an actual challenge. This isn't WoW, most of the old time players do not WANT the quests to even be remotely easy or simplistic. Listen if you find Epic not to be fun, don't do it.

You can have Casual, we'll take Epic.

1. Never played WoW, my first and greatly loved MMO was UO.
2. You don't need to be so rude
3. What have you done better than me? Nothing. In fact I'm pretty sure it's the opposite speaking about grinding some specific items and building up the character.
4. I want a challenge, you want easy play (or revenge) with you barb. I can't really see why we should be one against another... we choose to play a different role in the party, each of us should be rewarded if that was hardly attained.
Now I'm totally unable to play my character... and not because I don't know the rules or what this game is about, but just because some dev decided to totally gimp AC builds, making epic questing for them just a matter of guild solidariety because they'll be just like a blank spot in the party.
5. Never been in a casual quest and probably it will never happen in the future.

sephiroth1084
02-26-2010, 05:56 AM
I'm sick and tired of people whinning and moaning that something is to difficult, we all ask for a challenge and when its presented you get jacka%$ess complaing that it is an actual challenge. This isn't WoW, most of the old time players do not WANT the quests to even be remotely easy or simplistic. Listen if you find Epic not to be fun, don't do it.

You can have Casual, we'll take Epic.
It's not a matter of people complaining epic is too challenging, it's that it invalidates so many styles of play. There's no reason to take almost any AC character into an epic quest. There's no reason to take a trap-specc'ed rogue who hasn't spent nearly all of their AP and equipment slots on pushing their Search and Disable up through the stratosphere (no reason, because you could just take a DPS rogue, or any DPS for that matter).

Epic should inspire us to look for new tactics, challenging us to step up our game, not act as gating to permit only a few styles to be at all relevant. Look at casters: Amrath made casters almost pointless, yet in epic content they serve an important role, sometimes as crowd control, sometimes as DoT, sometimes as buffers (as they have been in most quests up to Amrath), and encourages them to use different spells (no insta-death, so go for save-or-suck).


The fix to the problem would not be as simple as just subtracting some number from the attack rolls of those monsters.

What they need to do is increase the range of ACs that are meaningful against a specific enemy to more than just 18 numbers. Two simple steps would be quasi-iterative monster attacks and fortification against confirmation. Once things like that were done, the attack bonuses of those mobs could be decreased a little without nerfing them too much against ultra-AC characters.
Wow, simultaneous thought process with A_D...

RATRACE931
02-26-2010, 06:00 AM
1. Never played WoW, my first and greatly loved MMO was UO.
2. You don't need to be so rude
3. What have you done better than me? Nothing. In fact I'm pretty sure it's the opposite speaking about grinding some specific items and building up the character.
4. I want a challenge, you want easy play (or revenge) with you barb. I can't really see why we should be one against another... we choose to play a different role in the party, each of us should be rewarded if that was hardly attained.
Now I'm totally unable to play my character... and not because I don't know the rules or what this game is about, but just because some dev decided to totally gimp AC builds, making epic questing for them just a matter of guild solidariety because they'll be just like a blank spot in the party.
5. Never been in a casual quest and probably it will never happen in the future.

I wasn't being rude if you took as an assault against you in particulair then sorry bout your luck. I did not imply i was better than you as that would be moronic, this is a game. I was simply venting my frustration with the fact that every time brand new content comes out people complain that it is to difficult, then a few months down the road it is too easy because we gain all the gear that comes with it and understanding of its mechanics. Epic content is brand spanking new with gear that presumably will give us higher AC, DPS and Attack Rating. I'm not understanding why your character is unplayable, surely u can still swing a weapon and damage a mob with the rest of us.

Think of it from a "12 AC DPS Barbs" point of veiw, he walks into an epic quest crits a monster for 550 with his greensteel and by sheer luck gets a 600 point lightning strike off on the same hit and the regular non-named monsters hitpoints drop by 1/30. Or a FvS tosses up a blade barrier it crits and does 600 damage to 15 mobs he turns around looks at their health and theres barely a noticablre difference.
No build is an amazing uber Epic Destroyer and they shouldn't be yet, heck it even takes the almighty Shade a few moments to DPS down a mob. Epic is a challenge for you and your friends to get together and stomp it down, the only reason you wouldn't be able to participate is if your hitpoints are amazingly sub-par, or your geared out with nothing but a Tower Shield, 79 intimidate and a Lifeshield returner.

Again I say if Epic isnt fun for you, do not do it...

Angelus_dead
02-26-2010, 06:12 AM
Again I say if Epic isnt fun for you, do not do it...
That kind of answer is an invalid defense of the existing design of epic mode.

The fact that epic mode is not fun for them is a problem that needs to be solved, if Turbine wants a financially successful game product.

sephiroth1084
02-26-2010, 06:13 AM
Think of it from a "12 AC DPS Barbs" point of veiw, he walks into an epic quest crits a monster for 550 with his greensteel and by sheer luck gets a 600 point lightning strike off on the same hit and the regular non-named monsters hitpoints drop by 1/30. Or a FvS tosses up a blade barrier it crits and does 600 damage to 15 mobs he turns around looks at their health and theres barely a noticablre difference.
No build is an amazing uber Epic Destroyer and they shouldn't be yet, heck it even takes the almighty Shade a few moments to DPS down a mob. Epic is a challenge for you and your friends to get together and stomp it down, the only reason you wouldn't be able to participate is if your hitpoints are amazingly sub-par, or your geared out with nothing but a Tower Shield, 79 intimidate and a Lifeshield returner.

Again I say if Epic isnt fun for you, do not do it...

And again, this isn't about something being too difficult. How much are epic armors and shields going to raise our AC? 5 points, maybe (+1 each for +6 enhancements, +2 max Dex on armor, move shield to +7 enhancement).? That's hardly going to shift a build from tissue paper to viable.

Your example of the barbarian's and FvS's experience is not at all the same thing. Someone with non-maximized DPS can still participate effectively in epic content doing what they were designed for, but anyone without stupidly high AC (the kind that you have to sacrifice your ability to actually contribute in order to attain) might as well not be wearing anything. You take the barbarian because you need someone doing 1/30th a monster's HP. You use Blade Barrier because it stacks with everyone else's DPS, because it is efficient, and because it still works, albeit less effectively. You don't take an AC build, because their AC is probably not doing anything at all and their DPS is going to necessarily be lower than someone who just built their character to hit things.

In the one example, characters' abilities are lessened, but still usable, whereas in the other they are obsoleted. The difference is pretty clear, and it represents poor design.

RATRACE931
02-26-2010, 06:16 AM
It's not a matter of people complaining epic is too challenging, it's that it invalidates so many styles of play. There's no reason to take almost any AC character into an epic quest. There's no reason to take a trap-specc'ed rogue who hasn't spent nearly all of their AP and equipment slots on pushing their Search and Disable up through the stratosphere (no reason, because you could just take a DPS rogue, or any DPS for that matter).

Epic should inspire us to look for new tactics, challenging us to step up our game, not act as gating to permit only a few styles to be at all relevant. Look at casters: Amrath made casters almost pointless, yet in epic content they serve an important role, sometimes as crowd control, sometimes as DoT, sometimes as buffers (as they have been in most quests up to Amrath), and encourages them to use different spells (no insta-death, so go for save-or-suck).
.

If im not mistake Dev's have announced they are lower the DC's on Epic content. I didn't notice Amrath making casters pointless most of the dedicated casters i know do fine in Amrath, perhaps they arn't the end all like they were in Sleeping Dust, but they are far from useless. How can you say that epic content should inspre us to search for new tactics and Challenge us to step up our game, yet be defending the oldest and most classic Tactic? AC up till they can't hurt you at all, thats hardly a tactic imho. I say step up and figure out a creative way to use you AC geared out characters to their potential in Epic content, don't give up and ask Turbine for a hand out is all i am saying.

Because the truth is Epic is challenging us to step up, and change up our ever more laid back tactics of "Toss on a shield, take aggro and ill wand whip you". I'm glad to see the game going back to the old days when that wasn't always neccesarily an option. Whens the last time you did a Von1 normal the way we do Epic Von 1? As people have mentioned you can time attacks to Avoid them and move your character out of the way so as nt to be pummeled. It's Epic you shouldn't be able to stand toe-to-toe wih a CR34+ mob without taking some sort of serious damage.

New items are coming out with Epic, to increase our AC's new restige enhancements are yet to be released for many classes, one day im sure we will go duo epic at 4:30am without a second thought... wait did that last week :). Yes DPS will always be the Go To tactic when a mod first comes out, but other tactics have always and will always find a way aswell.

RATRACE931
02-26-2010, 06:22 AM
In the one example, characters' abilities are lessened, but still usable, whereas in the other they are obsoleted. The difference is pretty clear, and it represents poor design.

I'm sorry but if all your character can do is stand there and not be hit i don't want you in any quest at all, the point i seem to not be getting is why can't an AC build pick up a weapon and contribute to the dps? I find it hard to believe that every person that has posted here asking for the to-hits to be lowered, is so one dementional that they simply do so little DPS that they might aswell not be in the party.

If they are then I would have to that THAT represents poor design.

Angelus_dead
02-26-2010, 06:25 AM
I'm sorry but if all your character can do is stand there and not be hit i don't want you in any quest at all, the point i seem to not be getting is why can't an AC build pick up a weapon and contribute to the dps?
He certainly can do that. But then, why be an AC build at all? He may as well respec and regear for only DPS from then on.

Newtons_Apple
02-26-2010, 06:30 AM
Now I can see why epic mobs AC has been increased, as it encourages you to do a signifigant amount of farming to increase your to hit in order to be viable (barbs and fighters not so much).


The to-hit of these mobs however is absolutely STUPID. Buffed to 73ac in Von 1 epic and the named Minotaur at the begining hitting me every single swing.


Now I expect the same "song and dance" from the ZERO AC barbs that run epics of how this is balanced, because it doesnt effect them in any way. I AGREE Epic is supposed to be for the best with the best gear, but that ac IS with most of the best gear DDO has to offer! Not even a 5% reduction in being hit!


So dont come here and post your BS about how epic isnt for every kind of build, because you dont care that none of this effects your ZERO ac barbs and fighters. Epic needs to still be balanced enough to cater to more builds as high AC toons obviously have less HP. Besides, nerfing monsters to hit will in no way effect the zero AC builds anyway.



If you wish to keep mechanics as they are then provide me with a TR on my toon and 20 levels of xp so I can be a max str/con barb myself!



P.S. I am seriously curious if the Devs actually PLAY ddo at all.

/not signed

Epic is supposed to be extraordinarily difficult, with success sometimes based on luck as much as player skill. That's why it's called Epic...

A 73 AC is decent, but not Epic. Try reworking the character to get it higher. Many have gotten theirs close to a 90. Plus, what makes you think an AC build will automatically be low on hit points?

RATRACE931
02-26-2010, 06:35 AM
He certainly can do that. But then, why be an AC build at all? He may as well respec and regear for only DPS from then on.

Hmm... can't really argue with that now can I?

While I can't agree that this needs to be changed so quikly as this. I would like to see some evidence based on the Epic Loot that was also released to support what people are saying about AC before I can agree with what most of you are asking. But I will concur that you have a good point, and typing anything else would only make me look like a bigot towards non DPSers

Thanks for clarifying it in terms i could understand.

PS: Why couldn't someone just say that sooner?

Angelus_dead
02-26-2010, 06:45 AM
Epic is supposed to be extraordinarily difficult, with success sometimes based on luck as much as player skill.
It would be a bad idea for developers to release a tier like that. (But DDO's epic mode does not hinge much on random luck)

sephiroth1084
02-26-2010, 07:00 AM
I'm sorry but if all your character can do is stand there and not be hit i don't want you in any quest at all, the point i seem to not be getting is why can't an AC build pick up a weapon and contribute to the dps? I find it hard to believe that every person that has posted here asking for the to-hits to be lowered, is so one dementional that they simply do so little DPS that they might aswell not be in the party.

If they are then I would have to that THAT represents poor design.
Why take an AC character at all into Epic quests if all they can do is be a squishy DPS like everyone else, but deal less damage because they have devoted themselves to two disciplines rather than 1?

I don't necessarily think that we should be able to floor AC in epic content at this point, but it should certainly have some value. And while you may enjoy having only one viable path to completing a quest, most people do not. Whats more, having more options rarely invalidates the preferences of others.

Hendrik
02-26-2010, 07:10 AM
It is not so black and white.. 73ac is not good enough for epic red names and should not be. Did you notice though that the other minotaurs were missing you because they most certainly were. I know this because my mid 70s to 80s ac rogue gets missed by the trash in epic vons most to half the time. A red named on epic the ac should be 85 to miss half the time and if you can not get your ac that high then you have work to do sorry. For key red names lets say 90+ ac to miss you half the time.

Odd how that works, huh?

Named Epic MOBs hitting you while generic Epic MOBs miss. Perfectly acceptable in my book...

vVAnjilaVv
02-26-2010, 07:14 AM
I think the larger question that needs to be addressed here or something that needs to be pointed out which is obvious is this......

Epic came out the same time as TR for a reason......$$$

Complain all u want about the difficulty of it, but it's not going to be changed much......it's the perfect way to sell Hearts of Wood.

If u wanna keep all the gear you have attained to use on the character u feel has ben nerfed......TR......that's what it's there for.

The new model of the game was planned out quite extensively to make it more profitable.....u don't honestly think they are going to cave in to people who want thier builds un-nerfed when they now can just sell u a TR.

Doesn't make much money for them that way.

sephiroth1084
02-26-2010, 08:45 AM
Haha...negative rep for not agreeing with ur plea...whatever....shouldn't u be starting ur TR by now?
Actually, I was getting around to writing something, but in direct response to this: The idea that somehow epic quests were designed solely to make a profit is preposterous. Then, using that assertion to also imply that there isn't any point in discussing how to fix a spot of poor, unfun design makes your comment not only pointless, but irritating.

That is why I neg'ed you.

SableShadow
02-26-2010, 10:02 AM
People keep chanting "best of the best" or "it's EPIC!" as a shoot-down for any request for changes in Epics, when in reality some builds do quite well...and some do poorly.

I generally don't go for anything more than l00t run AC, so I scarcely notice a difference going into epics, personnally...but I can see how it might frustrate other players.

Seems like a perfect time to take a look at the grazing system...trying to balance around AC (or any of the d20 pass/fail mechanics) is notoriously difficult in DDO.

KKDragonLord
02-26-2010, 10:09 AM
Now I can see why epic mobs AC has been increased, as it encourages you to do a signifigant amount of farming to increase your to hit in order to be viable (barbs and fighters not so much).

The to-hit of these mobs however is absolutely STUPID. Buffed to 73ac in Von 1 epic and the named Minotaur at the begining hitting me every single swing.

Now I expect the same "song and dance" from the ZERO AC barbs that run epics of how this is balanced, because it doesnt effect them in any way. I AGREE Epic is supposed to be for the best with the best gear, but that ac IS with most of the best gear DDO has to offer! Not even a 5% reduction in being hit!

So dont come here and post your BS about how epic isnt for every kind of build, because you dont care that none of this effects your ZERO ac barbs and fighters. Epic needs to still be balanced enough to cater to more builds as high AC toons obviously have less HP. Besides, nerfing monsters to hit will in no way effect the zero AC builds anyway.

If you wish to keep mechanics as they are then provide me with a TR on my toon and 20 levels of xp so I can be a max str/con barb myself!

P.S. I am seriously curious if the Devs actually PLAY ddo at all.

I was under the impression that 73 AC wasn't even good enough for Shavarath...

Isn't Epic supposed to be harder than Elite Shavarath?

i am confused now...

ghostegg
02-26-2010, 11:22 AM
We reach that: (really ?)

if a toon cant get more than 73 AC at 20 lvl, drop all and go naked, no waste time and gold in protection, maximize HP and DPS. can't do ? waste more and more time to try, and solo on.

It makes me bail out.

Dinamic Content and a newbie equation

NumberOfMobs * (HPm + (1d20 * ABm + ACm) * SPm ) = NumberOfToons * ( HPt + (1d20 * ABt + ACt) * SPt),

balance and integrate 1 to L seconds, Hit points HP, Attack AB, Defense AC, Spell SP and dice 1D20.

find the fixes.

bobbryan2
02-26-2010, 11:30 AM
Odd how that works, huh?

Named Epic MOBs hitting you while generic Epic MOBs miss. Perfectly acceptable in my book...

The other minotaurs were shamans. I doubt they melee much. And those cometfalls still cut through AC like it's not there. Odd how that works, huh?

KKDragonLord
02-26-2010, 11:30 AM
We reach that: (really ?)

if a toon cant get more than 73 AC at 20 lvl, drop all and go naked, no waste time and gold in protection, maximize HP and DPS. can't do ? waste more and more time to try, and solo on.

It makes me bail out.

Dinamic Content and a newbie equation

NumberOfMobs * (HPm + 1d20 * ABm + ACm + SPm ) = NumberOfToons * ( HPt + 1d20 * ABt + ACt + SPt),

balance and integrate 1 to L seconds, Hit points HP, Attack AB, Defense AC, Spell SP and dice 1D20.

find the fixes.

Me, and the great majority of THF and TWF toons, dont bother with AC after level 17, surprisingly this doesn't mean people stopped playing those quests. Maximizing DPS is the norm for these characters and maximizing HP is also the norm for high level play, it only means that people have to rely on each other more, and parties must work together to make it work. You shouldn't bail out without experiencing for yourself

Nevertheless i agree that the AC range could be improved: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=233688.
But as you will see, its not as easy as it sounds.

vVAnjilaVv
02-26-2010, 11:45 AM
The only thing I find proposterous about this thread is the fact that the game has already been simplified to the umpteenth degree...and now all the people who want the best toys in the game are crying because they actually have to earn them instead of being unhittable, untouchable gods and just take them.

Sorry....but a big part of the game is the challenge.....the word epic does not mean easy.

I see people wanting to make builds that cannot be touched, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......why are u even bothering to play then.

I never said anywhere in my post that profit is the only reason they released epic......but they are trying to make money here...don't think it's not part of the scheme or ur only fooling urself.

BTW....there are plenty of items u can BUY in the store to make ur epic grind EASIER

Lorz
02-26-2010, 11:51 AM
OP mistakes EPIC for pretty good.

Sorry, your gonna have to step up your game for EPIC. But dont get mad, and dont get all "the game needs to be easier" ... just man up.... improve...it will come.

If not go back and rework / research and try again.

One day you will look back and see how easy this was...just like everything else...Hard now...easier after you master it.

Angelus_dead
02-26-2010, 12:14 PM
The idea that somehow epic quests were designed solely to make a profit is preposterous.
That's a very funny thing to say. Clearly you were thinking of some other more specific concept (involving sales of respecs), but what you actually wrote was nonsense.

Obviously epic mode is there to be profitable... it's just not doing the best job at it yet, because it's lacking some fun.

Thrudh
02-26-2010, 12:16 PM
Epic is supposed to be just that, Epic. I'm not sure what part of that name implies "Hey yeah grind for a few months on your 28-32 point build you just made and step right in and trio this with nothing but AC builds".

As opposed to don't grind at all (except for 1 THF GS weapon), and just step right in and do this with nothing but DPS builds?

The point is correct... AC builds are a lot harder to build than DPS builds... A dedicated AC build should have a place at end-game.

Thrudh
02-26-2010, 12:23 PM
I was under the impression that 73 AC wasn't even good enough for Shavarath...

Isn't Epic supposed to be harder than Elite Shavarath?

i am confused now...

Your impression is wrong... 73 AC in Shavarath makes a real difference (against non-bosses)

RobbinB
02-26-2010, 12:27 PM
Biggest problem i see with this game is AC. They have given us crazy high AC numbers over the years where only AC builds can have meaningful AC and those needs tons of gear.

I propose a radical idea: Move away from the 1d20. The 1d20 is meant for dnd AC and to hit numbers which are a lot smaller than the inflated numbers in ddo. If they expand to lets say a 1d40 on monster and player to hit while moving the to hit numbers of both players and monsters down with 20 to 30 points the game would be much more enjoyable. (the math and the dice would be a matter of balancing)

Then to hit would matter on all levels not just on epic, and even lower AC would give some protection. So instead of every AC giving 5% less chance of getting hit if you are within the 1d20 every point of AC gives 2,5% less chance of being hit - but even lower AC would matter.

One of the first toons i played was an AC based sorc. That was a lot of fun. In my oppinion every class should benefit from AC if they choose to focus on it (even barbs)

now a lot of dnd fans will probably bash this as they see the 1d20 as the holy grale. We left the dnd numbers a long time ago with all the crazy loot and enhancements that make AC numbers totally out of sync with dnd.

This is a logical suggestion which has been made before. The d20 system simply doesn't work at higher levels, and that's not unique to DDO. It's true in any DnD-based game where I've played past level 20, Neverwinter nights being another example.

You might think that Turbine is just to scared to change the D20 as that might anger the purists. But they don't seem to concerned when they make horrible changes like grazing hits that have absolutely no basis in PnP.

I get that Turbine is probably not intelligent enough to make a logical change to the d20 sytem that will improve the game. So don't sweat it....just steal some of the forum ideas that were proposed more than a year ago. We'll give y'all the credit, honest.

KKDragonLord
02-26-2010, 12:31 PM
Your impression is wrong... 73 AC in Shavarath makes a real difference (against non-bosses)

Well, Newsflash: EPIC>Shavarath.

So yeah, 73 sounds very low for that.

the problem is when 93 is not good enough for the mobs.

KKDragonLord
02-26-2010, 12:40 PM
That's a very funny thing to say. Clearly you were thinking of some other more specific concept (involving sales of respecs), but what you actually wrote was nonsense.

Obviously epic mode is there to be profitable... it's just not doing the best job at it yet, because it's lacking some fun.

I find them pretty fun.
Actually, the most fun i've had in DDO ever since i first started playing.

Riggs
02-26-2010, 12:48 PM
Signed.

It is bad enough they have 20x the hit points making it a annoying grind. Plus the 80 damage swings means they can kill you in 1 round while it takes you 20-30 'rounds' or whatever to kill a single monster.

But having a to hit of....+80, +100, or whatever they have is just stupid.

So yes, make THEIR AC to be boosted by the exact same amount their to hit is boosted by. See how people like it then. Oh and give them energy resist 100 on everything too while your at it - no need to make just melee useless, make everyone useless and then everyone is equal.

D&D epic by definition is level 21+, not level 80+

Make 'Epic' something in the realm of being harder than level 20 on elite, and then it wont be so stupid and cheezy. Because as it is now, epic is stupid and cheezy.

Riggs
02-26-2010, 01:03 PM
Oh and regarding the ac issue in general.

I have posted about fixes before (and generally get shot down by people that dont have ac and dont care).

It wasnt until D&D 3.5 that all sorts of stupid and unbalancing add-ons and variants and huge increases started showing up in D&D land. Looking at a demigod book and seeing 70-90 ac's on anything was just stupid in a level 1-20 d20 system. And I have seen some things on wierd druid/psionic warrior/monk builds or whatever than can do ridiculous damage.

So Turbine inherited a system that was going all out of whack, and unfortunately then took it further with the massive ac boosting items, str boosting items etc. (70+ str ..really? Can I have Mjollnir too?). Then took that out of balance new high benchmarks and build monsters around it up to 20, and then went off the deep end for epic.

A level 25 monster is epic in D&D - what we have in epic is way beyond that.

What should have happened the minute Icy Raiments came out, is that people realized AC was getting out of control on some builds, and cut off all the stacking bonuses, so people were not running around with an AC sometimes 40 more than the guy beside them - when the guy beside them thinks they are actually trying to have a good ac with +5 armor, +5 shield, +5 protection, barks potion, etc., and still only hits a 40 ac.

THEN - every single monster in the game that is balanced right now to hit a 70-90 ac gets hammered down by the exact same amount that ac bonuses get nurfed. SO a ac build today will still get missed just as much as before (and epic needs a LOT of turning down), but a high ac and a 'good' ac are only say 20 points apart, not 40, so someone with the above gear (+5 everything and other buffs) actually notices getting missed by non-raid boss stuff in high level content as opposed to finding out that a 40-45 ac is about the same as a 0 ac.

** edit** oh and I remember something being said about not changing ac bonuses because people would complain or something (like that affects anything) - and I have a number of ac builds that would get 'nurfed' by the any changes lowering their ac bonuses. But I am HAPPY with that as long as monsters are dialed down in their to hit by the same exact amount that ac is lowered.

ForwardWu
02-26-2010, 01:03 PM
I do agree DDO need to balance between Defense (AC) and Offence (DPS)

The grinding/planning needed for a decent AC build more than a moderate DPS build. Icy Raiment/Chat Ring/Insight GS >> One Min2 Axe.....

The fun part is, now AC build pretty useless in EPIC, and ppls with DPS focus build just laugh at those "stupid" AC build, and claimed that EPIC is not for "them".

If the situation is reversed, all DPS heavy build because potato in EPIC and only AC build works, I doubt what will they think? They will probably just make AC build and find out that much more grinding and planning is needed for an AC build instead of a 18/8/18/8/8/8 Min2 Axe user...

its not hard to implement..mobs just deal (100-AC) damage per hit...i will see what those single digit AC DPS looks like....

The sad side of the story is, DDO is a DPS game...DPS alway win, as the game has a clear trend of godify DND monster...giving them 1mil hp for players to punch with....

well, welcome to MMORPG, and there is no all time winner in here. All builds can easily be gimped with just 1 patch/bug/exploit...so just get the fun out of it is good enough...

To me, I will just put my AC build aside from Epic, and build a DPS potato...there is not much grinding needed at all. If we can made AC build already, a DPS build is easy to grab...

KKDragonLord
02-26-2010, 01:07 PM
The sad side of the story is, DDO is a DPS game...DPS alway win, as the game has a clear trend of godify DND monster...giving them 1mil hp for players to punch with....

just to point out... they wouldn't need 1million hit points if you could only hit them 20% of the time.

But, players who don't hit 95% of the time are more prone to /ragequit.

Cyr
02-26-2010, 01:08 PM
/signed

I TR'd my AC build after EPIC DQ's (did plenty of them on her and she was a very high dps for an ac build so she did fine in them). Now her AC though was a 72 with a bark pot and nothing else. I had her AC into the 90's rather often with buffs. It still made almost no difference. That is just dumb considering how much AC builds have to give up to accomplish AC's of that level. Trash mobs in epic should not be > elite red names in ToD or really even close. Red names in epic should be > those elite red names though. I would be fine with red names in epic with to hits of +80 so only the really buffed best AC builds can have viable AC's versus them, but trash mobs should have to hits much lower then that. Shavarath mobs never hit AC builds like this. How about EPIC mobs hit 50% more? It's not like EPIC has really introduced tons of new AC gear for actually top end AC builds. Heck spectral gloves only gives you a one point swing best case and that's the best item for top end AC builds that epic has had so far.

EDIT: And Shade you have no idea what you are talking about in this case. 130 AC is NOT obtainable without something akin to the rarity of a solar eclipse and then it lasts a heck of a lot shorter. Those are all short term buffs for that AC and a 100% AC specced character. 75 standing ubuffed AC is a very high AC toon. That is best of the best for AC and hit's like a wet noodle. I guess the most comparable case would be if EPIC mobs themselves had such a high AC that only your Axer build with every to hit bonus item on and every buff in the game for to hit going could hit them (including things like 3* scourge choker proc, 2* madstone, profane str. bonus cookie, turbine store str pot, 20 warchanter songs...) Without all those short term buffs you would need a 20 to hit (still having all your rages going and such though).

Delacroix21
02-26-2010, 01:16 PM
/not signed

Epic is supposed to be extraordinarily difficult, with success sometimes based on luck as much as player skill. That's why it's called Epic...

A 73 AC is decent, but not Epic. Try reworking the character to get it higher. Many have gotten theirs close to a 90. Plus, what makes you think an AC build will automatically be low on hit points?


All the people that comment this clearly show that they do not play AC toons, they simply have seen forums threads with a picture of a character hitting this AC number. They never once bothered to realize that this was with multiple action boosts, blocking, and tumbling (which would mean you are providing NO benefit to the party).


As for player skill....


Unless I have missed something Epic really isnt that hard, it just requires different tactics. I (and other AC toons) are not saying we cant compete in epic, we are just simply saying that there is ZERO incentive to keep your toon AC based in epic.


Again on player skill and 90+ac...


If you think that it is even REMOTELY similar or easy to max AC as it is HPs then boy you sure dont know what your talking about! Also, you may or may not have noticed that these ultra high AC numbers involve nearly every buff from a wide variety of classes to be possible. The same standard does not REQUIRE a warchanter in order to hit Epic mobs, as with allot of farming (and turning PA off) you can hit epic mobs regularly. AC builds cant turn off CE however, making it even HARDER on them.




I see far too many non-ac builds in ddo today walking around with a pocket cleric and thinking they are very "skilled." I tell you now, making a max strength and con toon is easy as pie compared to making a viable high ac dps character (not sword and board).

Atenhotep
02-26-2010, 01:22 PM
P.S. I am seriously curious if the Devs actually PLAY ddo at all.

I find this to be my frequent concern.

Angelus_dead
02-26-2010, 01:24 PM
I find them pretty fun.
Actually, the most fun i've had in DDO ever since i first started playing.
Alright, let's take it from your perspective that epic mode is more fun:
So then it would be a good idea to remove Casual, Normal, and Hard mode, making all quests done only on Elite, and give monsters another +5 to +10 attack, AC, and saves on top of that.

KKDragonLord
02-26-2010, 01:33 PM
Alright, let's take it from your perspective that epic mode is more fun:
So then it would be a good idea to remove Casual, Normal, and Hard mode, making all quests done only on Elite, and give monsters another +5 to +10 attack, AC, and saves on top of that.

Uh what?
Are you trying to imply that i stated that there should only be Elite or Epic in the game???

There is different kinds of fun thats why there are different levels of difficulty, i don't run casual and i never will, but to some people its an awesome thing they added.

Angelus_dead
02-26-2010, 01:46 PM
Uh what?
Are you trying to imply that i stated that there should only be Elite or Epic in the game???
Since you find Epic more fun than anything else in DDO, it follows that your enjoyment of the rest of DDO would be improved if it was more like Epic mode. That means eliminating Casual, Normal, and Hard, and also giving the monsters an amount of bonuses to take them beyond Elite.


There is different kinds of fun thats why there are different levels of difficulty, i don't run casual and i never will, but to some people its an awesome thing they added.
Alright, this is important. Here's a mistake that a lot of people (probably even some devs) make when thinking about Epic mode:
They look at it as a difficulty mode instead of a progression tier.

Epic quests are only a difficulty mode in the technical sense that they are accessed by clicking on a checkbox under "difficulty". As far as game design goes, they are not part of the continuum from Casual to Elite that characterizes the actual difficulty modes. Not only is the power level of the epic opponents set independent of the basis level of the quest, but more importantly it provides a large and elaborate set of loot rewards (and a whole crafting system) that is accessible in no other way.

If the mode was simply called "Elite Plus" and its only purpose was to give extreme people something to boast about, that wouldn't be too bad. Instead it is the only way to participate in the game's top tier of character progression, which means that players who don't enjoy Epic mode can't enjoy the top tier.

Think back to when Shroud, Reaver Refuge, and Tower of Despair came out: what if they had only allowed players to enter on Elite? That would have made them a lot like Epic loot is now. Would that have been good or bad for the game?

This is why it would be better if Epic mode was a separate checkbox from N/H/E difficulty, so that players could choose between Normal Epic and Elite Epic as they wished.

KKDragonLord
02-26-2010, 01:46 PM
All the people that comment this clearly show that they do not play AC toons, they simply have seen forums threads with a picture of a character hitting this AC number. They never once bothered to realize that this was with multiple action boosts, blocking, and tumbling (which would mean you are providing NO benefit to the party).

As for player skill....

Unless I have missed something Epic really isnt that hard, it just requires different tactics. I (and other AC toons) are not saying we cant compete in epic, we are just simply saying that there is ZERO incentive to keep your toon AC based in epic.

Again on player skill and 90+ac...

If you think that it is even REMOTELY similar or easy to max AC as it is HPs then boy you sure dont know what your talking about! Also, you may or may not have noticed that these ultra high AC numbers involve nearly every buff from a wide variety of classes to be possible. The same standard does not REQUIRE a warchanter in order to hit Epic mobs, as with allot of farming (and turning PA off) you can hit epic mobs regularly. AC builds cant turn off CE however, making it even HARDER on them.

I see far too many non-ac builds in ddo today walking around with a pocket cleric and thinking they are very "skilled." I tell you now, making a max strength and con toon is easy as pie compared to making a viable high ac dps character (not sword and board).

I Play a THF Pally and i completely understand your point, it would be very difficult for me to get up to 63 AC and i would relly on buffs from rangers, clerics and bards... (not to mention actually getting a Chattering ring which never drops for me!)

So yeah, a Full AC Build is VERY tough to do, and everyone else can just ditch AC completely for hard Shavarath quests to Epic. Which is our current End Game.

The thing AC builds actually do though, is to allow the two manning of some of the most difficult Raids in the game. So After you get All that equipment, you can make a character that is are pretty much unstoppable. So its not a trivial issue, certainly not what they wanted for Epic. In Fact, there is now more AC in the game than before, and thats through Epic Loot. So its even harder to get AC, but eventually if you have all the Epic stuffs, you might get to that Unstoppable status (against mobs at least).

Yeah, the Devs decided to scrap AC builds and they almost nerfed CC out of Epic as well, they are doing whatever they think is necessary for Epic to be difficult, unlike the rest of the game.

From where i see it... unless they increased the useful range for AC, thats not going to change. I even have made several suggestions on how to do that, including unique equipment that could allow CE to grant a passive bonus so it could be paired with PA. Animated Shields, to lower the AC gap, and the revival of Iterative attack penalties...

AC balancing is not a trivial matter, and Full AC builds are extremely hard to make, but they can also be game breaking, all these points have to be considered to reach the facts of the matter.

And yeah, i don't have an AC build, but i too wish my AC meant something, even on a DPS toon.

KKDragonLord
02-26-2010, 01:57 PM
Since you find Epic more fun than anything else in DDO, it follows that your enjoyment of the rest of DDO would be improved if it was more like Epic mode. That means eliminating Casual, Normal, and Hard, and also giving the monsters an amount of bonuses to take them beyond Elite.

Don't put words on my posts please.


Alright, this is important. Here's a mistake that a lot of people (probably even some devs) make when thinking about Epic mode:
They look at it as a difficulty mode instead of a progression tier.

Epic quests are only a difficulty mode in the technical sense that they are accessed by clicking on a checkbox under "difficulty". As far as game design goes, they are not part of the continuum from Casual to Elite that characterizes the actual difficulty modes. Not only is the power level of the epic opponents set independent of the basis level of the quest, but more importantly it provides a large and elaborate set of loot rewards (and a whole crafting system) that is accessible in no other way.

If the mode was simply called "Elite Plus" and its only purpose was to give extreme people something to boast about, that wouldn't be too bad. Instead it is the only way to participate in the game's top tier of character progression, which means that players who don't enjoy Epic mode can't enjoy the top tier.

Think back to when Shroud, Reaver Refuge, and Tower of Despair came out: what if they had only allowed players to enter on Elite? That would have made them a lot like Epic loot is now. Would that have been good or bad for the game?

This is why it would be better if Epic mode was a separate checkbox from N/H/E difficulty, so that players could choose between Normal Epic and Elite Epic as they wished.

You completely missed the point of my posts... I don't find Casual or even Normal, fun or exciting, but that doesn't mean other people don't think so either, You don't find Epic Fun or Exciting, and i disagree and i know people who disagree, you want me and them to not have fun making Epic As trivial as the rest of the game? Why can't you just not run Epic and leave us to do so.

And how can Epic Not just be another difficulty mode? The quests are all the same, the difference is that they are actually challenging for a change. If you want Epic loot, Run Epic quests, if you don't want to run Epic quests, forget about Epic loot, you won't need it anyhow.


To paraphrase Trudh: "If you're not having fun anymore, do something else. It's not rocket science."

elraido
02-26-2010, 02:04 PM
Odd how that works, huh?

Named Epic MOBs hitting you while generic Epic MOBs miss. Perfectly acceptable in my book...

Hen, you have been with me in Epic stuff while I am on Burne. You see how badly I get beat down by trash mobs. That is with a mid 70's AC. There are a few ways for me to increase that, but I need runes for my DT armor. But then I will only be gaining 4-5...pushing 80 total with your bard around....and if they would ever get greater rez out there then I could take combat ex and get mid 80's Then again this is me we are talking about...ask Tom how I roll with my new rogue/wiz on traps. Literally 1/2 the time it is 1's to cause them to explode. :mad:

Angelus_dead
02-26-2010, 02:24 PM
If you want Epic loot, Run Epic quests, if you don't want to run Epic quests, forget about Epic loot, you won't need it anyhow.
The examples I gave concerning Shroud, Reaver's Refuge, and Tower of Despair should have made this clear already, but: loot matters.

Here's a quiz question I like to check if someone is good at game design:
"If you were considering a new quest for inclusion in an existing RPG, what factor would be the highest priority to check?"

The answer is "The loot", or to put it more technically, the elements of that content that can persist and influence content in the rest of the game. If there is an error in the design or balance of a quest's monsters or traps, then that's a localized problem and it will just be a less-enjoyable piece of content. But if the loot is messed up, it can potentially leave and screw up encounters all over the rest of the game. To say that "RPGs are about loot" is only a minor oversimplification.

So the objection "You don't need to do epic mode because you don't need epic loot" is really hollow. What if Shroud only dropped Power Shards on Elite? Would it make sense to tell people "If you don't like Elite Shroud then you don't need Greensteel"


And how can Epic Not just be another difficulty mode? The quests are all the same, the difference is that they are actually challenging for a change.
I just explained that, but I'll try expanding on it. What is a "difficulty mode", really? It is a setting selectable to adjust how difficult something will be. If there is only one choice, then that's not a "difficulty mode", it's just "the thing".

For example, suppose some DDO players are looking for something do to, and they decide they'd like to do Genesis Point. Now they can pick difficulty: Maybe they do Normal and it's too tough, so they reset it to Casual. Or maybe they do Hard and it was too easy, so they repeat on Elite. They have four choices of difficulty, but whichever way they go they're still playing Genesis Point. And notice that to ask about the difficulty is a realistic question that you can expect a DDO party to discuss on their way to Genesis Point.

But what about Epic Wizard-king? If a DDO group does Epic Wizard-king and they find it too tough (or too easy), there is nothing they can do to adjust it. Going down to Elite Wizard-king isn't a viable option, because it's just not the same thing, as most concretely demonstrated because the durable effects (ie loot) are just not there.

If a party tried Epic Wizard-king and couldn't handle it, would they ever decide to play Elite instead? No, that would be absurd (unless they just wanted to rehearse the layout). They'd either break the party or look for something else, but Elite modes aren't even a partial replacement.

But if a group tried Elite Mindsunderer or Elite New Invasion and couldn't do it, might they instead do Hard? Of course they'd seriously consider that.



To paraphrase Trudh: "If you're not having fun anymore, do something else. It's not rocket science."
Yes, I noticed that earlier, and I didn't respond because I thought it was too absurd. Seriously, "Do something else"? That's not an excuse not to change something; It is an admission that the game design has failed.

If someone's saying "Just don't play this part of the game", then that's a big warning sign that there's something wrong with the game.

KKDragonLord
02-26-2010, 02:32 PM
The examples I gave concerning Shroud, Reaver's Refuge, and Tower of Despair should have made this clear already, but: loot matters.

Here's a quiz question I like to check if someone is good at game design:
"If you were considering a new quest for inclusion in an existing RPG, what factor would be the highest priority to check?"

The answer is "The loot", or to put it more technically, the elements of that content that can persist and influence content in the rest of the game. If there is an error in the design or balance of a quest's monsters or traps, then that's a localized problem and it will just be a less-enjoyable piece of content. But if the loot is messed up, it can potentially leave and screw up encounters all over the rest of the game. To say that "RPGs are about loot" is only a minor oversimplification.

So the objection "You don't need to do epic mode because you don't need epic loot" is really hollow. What if Shroud only dropped Power Shards on Elite? Would it make sense to tell people "If you don't like Elite Shroud then you don't need Greensteel"


I just explained that, but I'll try expanding on it. What is a "difficulty mode", really? It is a setting selectable to adjust how difficult something will be. If there is only one choice, then that's not a "difficulty mode", it's just "the thing".

For example, suppose some DDO players are looking for something do to, and they decide they'd like to do Genesis Point. Now they can pick difficulty: Maybe they do Normal and it's too tough, so they reset it to Casual. Or maybe they do Hard and it was too easy, so they repeat on Elite. They have four choices of difficulty, but whichever way they go they're still playing Genesis Point. And notice that to ask about the difficulty is a realistic question that you can expect a DDO party to discuss on their way to Genesis Point.

But what about Epic Wizard-king? If a DDO group does Epic Wizard-king and they find it too tough (or too easy), there is nothing they can do to adjust it. Going down to Elite Wizard-king isn't a viable option, because it's just not the same thing, as most concretely demonstrated because the durable effects (ie loot) are just not there.

If a party tried Epic Wizard-king and couldn't handle it, would they ever decide to play Elite instead? No, that would be absurd (unless they just wanted to rehearse the layout). They'd either break the party or look for something else, but Elite modes aren't even a partial replacement.

But if a group tried Elite Mindsunderer or Elite New Invasion and couldn't do it, might they instead do Hard? Of course they'd seriously consider that.

Yes, I noticed that earlier, and I didn't respond because I thought it was too absurd. Seriously, "Do something else"? That's not an excuse not to change something; It is an admission that the game design has failed.

If someone's saying "Just don't play this part of the game", then that's a big warning sign that there's something wrong with the game.

I see... you want Casual Epic then...
Well im sorry but i'll never agree to that

I have on several occasions suggested Epic became a Scaled setting though. This would allow me to enjoy challenge in the game before i got to lvl 20.
No epic loot though. That would be farming.

Ponza69
02-26-2010, 02:33 PM
Good thread in my opinion - learning lots here.

I think this is more widespread than just AC and DPS and BAB. One of the best parts about DDO to me is how customizable your character is. Almost unlimited possibilities with so many variables that stack up.

Their could be a thread similar to this called trap monkeys - why I built a trap monkey to handle epic but could not find anyone that would have me in normal quests because a wizard with 2 levels of rogue can open 95% of what I could.

Or another thread called Virturoso - the best epic class for CC - however they make up less than 5 % of the population because in comparision to the other bards they just dont stack up.

Or another thread called go the easy route and focus on dps and to hit because everything has a finite amount of hps - its like pressing the easy button. No where is my nannybot.

Appologies if I offended anyone with my cynicism.

The point of this post is that I sympathize with Turbine to some degree. They need to add upper end content that is balanced. But in order to balance the quest they would need to make broad sweeping changes. The player base is very wary of any changes that come their way even if they are just rumors.

Angelus_dead
02-26-2010, 03:52 PM
I see... you want Casual Epic then...
No. I want level 20 content to be level 20 content.

RATRACE931
02-26-2010, 04:23 PM
As opposed to don't grind at all (except for 1 THF GS weapon), and just step right in and do this with nothing but DPS builds?

The point is correct... AC builds are a lot harder to build than DPS builds... A dedicated AC build should have a place at end-game.

Hmm... you say this as if I wouldn't know, first of all i have and have had half a dozen AC builds, my "barb" Grimbite can attain over 73 AC only because he is a 4 year old 28 point build i put infinite amount of work put into it so don't patronize me and try to shrug me like im some frenzing halfing with a greensteel greatsword.

And if you on your "DPS" build only ground out a GS THF weapon then your going to be destroyed in Epic, don't act like you dont need the high end, very geared out of every class to be useful in Epic.

xtchizobr
02-26-2010, 05:05 PM
Biggest problem i see with this game is AC. They have given us crazy high AC numbers over the years where only AC builds can have meaningful AC and those needs tons of gear.

I propose a radical idea: Move away from the 1d20. The 1d20 is meant for dnd AC and to hit numbers which are a lot smaller than the inflated numbers in ddo. If they expand to lets say a 1d40 on monster and player to hit while moving the to hit numbers of both players and monsters down with 20 to 30 points the game would be much more enjoyable. (the math and the dice would be a matter of balancing)

Then to hit would matter on all levels not just on epic, and even lower AC would give some protection. So instead of every AC giving 5% less chance of getting hit if you are within the 1d20 every point of AC gives 2,5% less chance of being hit - but even lower AC would matter.

One of the first toons i played was an AC based sorc. That was a lot of fun. In my oppinion every class should benefit from AC if they choose to focus on it (even barbs)

now a lot of dnd fans will probably bash this as they see the 1d20 as the holy grale. We left the dnd numbers a long time ago with all the crazy loot and enhancements that make AC numbers totally out of sync with dnd.

QFFT.

DDO isn't PnP, and it's well past time to recognize this. if the goal is to emulate PnP D&D, then stop inflating hit dice -- i want to use Circle and Symbol of Death please. and Banishment. and even Deep Slumber. it doesn't make much sense to distort the balance of a game so wildly and still cling to the excuse that it is that way because that's "how pnp was"... when it wasn't. ever.

AC is suffering more than spells, but the preposterous saves, blanket immunities and spell resistance are essentially defining balance at the level cap explicitly and exclusively around the poorly balanced few class builds.

i remember reading sometime a little blurb in one of the 3.5 books cautioning the DM to not drop in too many immunities and bullcrap like that because it devalues player tactics. this is still very good and relevant advice for DDO even if it doesn't seek to emulate pnp play. it's good advice for any game. if you're gonna put me up against monsters who are immune to everything but a barbarian's metaline+PG axe, why should i play your game? give me a spell or something to use against them when you take away all my other spells.

give back AC even if it means you have to nerf the barbies to do it. the game should not be all about the barbies in the first place.

Delacroix21
02-26-2010, 06:29 PM
In all honesty its time for DDO to drop DnD ac and move into regular MMO ac.


What I mean by that is=

1. Player AC now grants a % damage reduction for players (with diminishing returns, making 100% impossible, thereby removing the "overpoweredness" of ac at lower levels)
2. Monster AC functions as usual


DDO shouldnt be a game where fighters/barbs etc. run around in robes because plate (and its ac) has no purpose. AC should be meaningfull to every class at least in a small way. A game is unbalanced when people turn down ac buffs because they figure it wouldnt matter anyway.


I want that fighter etc. to wear plate and take a barkskin because they figure= Heck, 10% damage reduction is better then nothing! I also want monks/dex based characters in general to feel that their ac IS meaningful as they progress throughout the game. How is that unbalanced?

ForwardWu
02-27-2010, 12:38 AM
I found it funny that in pnp, i think every melee type will be happy when they found a +5 full plate. However, in DDO, a +5 full plate offer not much protection more than a starter robe (which has advantage of quick swap as well)

I just found it irony that when Turbine is boosting the melee DPS without limit(well, all the epic upgrade for weapons, TOD rings), as the same time they are just dont boost AC (and at the same time boost monster Offence in EPIC).

vVAnjilaVv
02-27-2010, 03:33 AM
It's not level 20 content tho....it level 20 EPIC content. I'm sure if we have some level 20 normal mode quests that 73+ AC would still be meaningful...at least against trash mobs.

I'm not sure, but I think some people are under the impression that a level 20 Epic quest should be what a normal mode level 20 quest would be....which is clearly not the case.

Epic is just like the leveling progression for Epic levels, once u go past twenty u are no longer playing by the same rules.

Gulnar13
02-27-2010, 07:37 AM
I just feel so sad to think that in the epic levels D&D manual, for example, the Phaethon has 1.3k of HP, +83 to attack... and 47 AC. And it's CR 34.
Axxer would three-shot it.

Cathalo08
02-27-2010, 08:32 AM
After reading these types of threads it is often easy to forget what MMO im playing. Mostly, because threads like these exist in pretty much every MMO forum. Granted, I have not been playing DDO for long (but I am quite knowledgeable when it comes to D&D rules) and I also have quite an illustrious resume when it comes to the subject of MMO's, as I have played everything from UO, EQ1 and 2, SWG, Shadowbane, DAoC, Age of Conan, EvE, Asheron's Call, Potbs, WoW, Darkfall, etc. You name it and I have probably played it at one point in time. You could call me a game dork and you would probably be doing me too much justice, but anyhoo.

With that said, I have yet to come across any MMO that has ever successfully achieved end game balance. No matter what the game, there will always be a set of classes, professions, builds, playstyles etc that end up with the short end of the stick. Im not even sure that it would be possible to balance every playstyle for end game content without marginalizing the end game in some manner. Which is precisely why we see the trend I like to call the "Revolving door". Basically, player A will be all of that and a bag of chips for a few months until all of the sudden, God (devs) comes down and buffs (or nerfs) are handed out to player B, in which case everyone and their mom starts rolling the same class as player B. Then the cycle continues on from there. As buffs and nerfs are handed out, the endless cycle of rerolls continues, ad infinitum. SWG and WoW are notorious for this and most all other games simply follow suit rather than try and work a real solution to the issue. Maybe there is no other solution, who knows? But one thing is for sure, this problem is hardly new.

Let me break this down for everyone so we can put this thread to bed. If you're an AC build, you currently have two options as the game currently stands. You can reroll (put your AC toon on the shelf for awhile), or you can suck it up and wait for the winds of change to give you your I-win button back (which they will, eventually). Pick one of those two and then move on. Rather than spend precious time complaining about it on the forums, try making a grilled cheese sandwich and doing some work in the garden. Bye.

Angelus_dead
02-27-2010, 11:25 AM
I also have quite an illustrious resume when it comes to the subject of MMO's, as I have played everything from UO, EQ1 and 2, SWG, Shadowbane, DAoC, Age of Conan, EvE, Asheron's Call, Potbs, WoW, Darkfall, etc. You name it and I have probably played it at one point in time. You could call me a game dork
The rules of this forum discourage appeal to personal authority.

With that said, I have yet to come across any MMO that has ever successfully achieved end game balance.
...
SWG and WoW are notorious for this
To equate the imbalances in WOW endgame to what happens in DDO is spectactularly invalid.

The differences in WOW are miniscule compared to what goes on in DDO, and more importantly than that, the WOW developers change them in a rapid manner.

In WOW if players are complaining: "I can't tank in endgame", then the actual developers will come into the forum and say one of of three things:
1. Yeah, that was a misjudgment of ours, so look for a buff on PTR. In the meantime, use another spec of your class.
2. You actually can tank if you do it differently, as seen <LINK>.
3. Your class was never one of the four that was meant to have tanking ability.
4. We decided that Warlocks aren't supposed to be tanks anymore. Sorry bout that.



Let me break this down for everyone so we can put this thread to bed.
It is rude for an uninformed newbie to presume to tell experienced people what is and is not a valid topic of concern.


If you're an AC build, you currently have two options as the game currently stands. You can reroll (put your AC toon on the shelf for awhile), or you can suck it up and wait for the winds of change to give you your I-win button back (which they will, eventually).
That is drastically incorrect. You seem to be confusing DDO with a game which has "winds of change".


Pick one of those two and then move on. Rather than spend precious time complaining about it on the forums, try making a grilled cheese sandwich and doing some work in the garden. Bye.
Rather than spending your precious time on a forum telling people what they shouldn't be talking about, you could have prepared your own lunch.

Cathalo08
02-27-2010, 11:57 AM
Im not entirely new btw. I bought this game back when it first came out and played for a few weeks with some of my friends until they had to cancel their accounts for finanicial reasons. Solo content was very limited then and I didnt care to join another guild so I ended up leaving too. The game is definately alot different now than it use to be. I have been soloing instances on elite with my rogue that I never was able to finish before because they were too hard back in the day. I have noticed that the whole game feels a bit easier tbh and I havent read any of the patch notes yet (i hate sifting through piles of patch notes to figure out what all they did to it).

Quikster
02-27-2010, 12:31 PM
Honestly I havent had a huge problem in epic quests. Ive run ac builds, dps builds, casters, bards, and healers in them. Working as a group, using tactics, agro management, none of them are incredibly difficult.

Had a hoot of a time at the end of von three the other day. Two people made the mario over to the named caster and golem at the end, another got shot over to the big fight, and two of us fell down and ddoored back to get the mario chest. It was a little messy, but we got it done.

Im not sure what people are expecting out of epic. I dont want to have untouchable ac on my ac builds in epic. Complaining that you are getting hit too much in epic is a little silly, its epic.

Josh
02-27-2010, 12:37 PM
Im not entirely new btw. I bought this game back when it first came out and played for a few weeks with some of my friends until they had to cancel their accounts for finanicial reasons. Solo content was very limited then and I didnt care to join another guild so I ended up leaving too. The game is definately alot different now than it use to be. I have been soloing instances on elite with my rogue that I never was able to finish before because they were too hard back in the day. I have noticed that the whole game feels a bit easier tbh and I havent read any of the patch notes yet (i hate sifting through piles of patch notes to figure out what all they did to it).

Translation = you are a newb.

Cathalo08
02-27-2010, 12:47 PM
Translation = you are a newb.

Does a noob solo Shan-To-Kor on elite with a lvl 7 rogue? My guess is no.

Delacroix21
02-27-2010, 12:51 PM
Im not sure what people are expecting out of epic. I dont want to have untouchable ac on my ac builds in epic. Complaining that you are getting hit too much in epic is a little silly, its epic.


If your so called "AC build" is not reducing your chance to be hit at all (even by a lousy 10%) then it is not doing its job and has no purpose. That is like saying= "I like my to-hit build! I mean I cant hit anything with it, but hey its Epic!"

Delacroix21
02-27-2010, 01:00 PM
That is drastically incorrect. You seem to be confusing DDO with a game which has "winds of change".

.

That is sadly true. There are many issues in DDO that have gone unfixed since Beta. To compare the DDO Devs to WoWs is ridiculous, as there is simply no comparison. WoW fixes issues proptly, actually cares about class balance, and tests new content extensively.


Here is an example=
1. WoW is about to release a new raid/content
2. They allow you to copy your character to the test realm (with CURRENT level and gear)
3. OR they give you the option to make a premade character of any class with max level and some of the best gear in the game.


Why?=
1. It allows for people to transfer their current characters to test (not 1 year old toons)
2. It allows EVERYONE to test the new content (more people= more perspectives, more testing in general)
3. Allows players a chance to see what other high end classes actually play like (saves you a TON of grinding just to see if a class/build is a good fit for you, then you can go start from level 1 and make this toon on real servers)



That being said DDO has the POTENTIAL to be a much better game with all of its features/spells/customizations. But much of it goes unrealized.

Borror0
02-27-2010, 01:04 PM
Does a noob solo Shan-To-Kor on elite with a lvl 7 rogue? My guess is no.
He said newb, not noob. He was referring to your experience, not your intelligence or game skills.

Quikster
02-27-2010, 03:03 PM
If your so called "AC build" is not reducing your chance to be hit at all (even by a lousy 10%) then it is not doing its job and has no purpose. That is like saying= "I like my to-hit build! I mean I cant hit anything with it, but hey its Epic!"

What you meant to say is if your ac build is not reducing your chance at being hit.

My ac build when fully buffed and turtled does reduce it.

But see in the rest of the game im virtually untouchable, not your paltry 72 you posted. I can also go into dps mode and beat the heck out of things. Im not having a hard time in epic on any of my builds however, im sorry you are.

KKDragonLord
02-27-2010, 03:05 PM
I find them pretty fun.
Actually, the most fun i've had in DDO ever since i first started playing.

(ps: plz dont neg rep me oh mighty A_D)

Lol, that Neg Rep took awhile...

Refreshing to know we can't have our own opinion around here

Lleren
02-27-2010, 04:02 PM
The differences in WOW are miniscule compared to what goes on in DDO, and more importantly than that, the WOW developers change them in a rapid manner.

In WOW if players are complaining: "I can't tank in endgame", then the actual developers will come into the forum and say one of of three things:
1. Yeah, that was a misjudgment of ours, so look for a buff on PTR. In the meantime, use another spec of your class.
2. You actually can tank if you do it differently, as seen <LINK>.
3. Your class was never one of the four that was meant to have tanking ability.
4. We decided that Warlocks aren't supposed to be tanks anymore. Sorry bout that.


I wish more games would learn to do this.

KKDragonLord
02-27-2010, 04:10 PM
Yeah, i too wished DDO had 12 million subscribers to pay for 100x more support and development, who could tweak the game every week, assing a dev to fix a bug affecting less than a dozen people, and make new quests on a daily basis.
Then maybe we could have a new class and race every update...

moops
02-27-2010, 04:25 PM
I concur with others that 73 isnt that high, but also, having 2 alts that reach 80+ AC I was a bit bummed that in most epic it did not matter. . .And coming from a HIGH AC guild, it was more of a bummer. . .

BUT what did we do? We simply use a different strategy--which is either caster gets the aggro, and debuff and tanks melee--or weighted and stunning. With these strategies when Im on my healers I don't actually have to heal much--most of my SP in VONS is spent goofin off with BB and trying to land curses on some of the mobs, I dont really do that much in EPCI sesert as I don't want in aggro in there and most groups i'm in are just running alot..

I dont want to use the same strategy for every quest anyway--I still get to run AMrath and the Raids where my AC matters and I play different roles in all of them--so in the end I think its a nice mix.

Angelus_dead
02-27-2010, 04:45 PM
Yeah, i too wished DDO had 12 million subscribers to pay for 100x more support and development, who could tweak the game every week
It isn't true that speedy adjustments to game balance actually require a tremendous budget and lots of staff. As analyzed by Fred Brooks, there is an upper limit as to how many people can contribute to design at once, and beyond that gets into majorly diminishing returns.

Instead of saying that Warcraft's success gave them the budget to work on game mechanics fixes, it would be more accurate to say that working hard at game mechanics is what lead to the success in the first place (a habit they had established long before WOW was even in planning)

KKDragonLord
02-27-2010, 04:48 PM
It isn't true that speedy adjustments to game balance actually require a tremendous budget and lots of staff. As analyzed by Fred Brooks, there is an upper limit as to how many people can contribute to design at once, and beyond that gets into majorly diminishing returns.

Instead of saying that Warcraft's success gave them the budget to work on game mechanics fixes, it would be more accurate to say that working hard at game mechanics is what lead to the success in the first place (a habit they had established long before WOW was even in planning)

Did Fred Brooks work on Blizzard?

Did WoW started with the same level of support it has now?

Don't think so.

Apples and oranges.


The Blizz staff that takes care of Tweak Desing doesnt need to worry about New Loot design or Monster Design or Level Design or Narrative Design or the Big Picture, Or D&D Rules, the balancing of all those things and Bug Fixes and QA and a whole lot of other things.

They can pretty much afford a team for each and every task along with supervisors and integration teams to fit all those things neatly together. They can have separate dev teams along with analysts and consultants as well as paid players and whatever else they can think of to make design faster and more accurate.

They probably have a progression system going on for all the in game stats since they are not bound by a written Ruleset and every update you have to grind for new Uber Loot to have a chance at doing new Raids. Its a completely different ball game.

Borror0
02-27-2010, 05:41 PM
Yeah, i too wished DDO had 12 million subscribers to pay for 100x more support and development, who could tweak the game every week, assing a dev to fix a bug affecting less than a dozen people, and make new quests on a daily basis.
Then maybe we could have a new class and race every update...
A_D was not commenting about how quickly they fix everything. He was commenting on how they quickly react to huge imbalance. When a World of Warcraft players complain that X lags behind, they are usually talking about a 10% difference at best and, if it's a valid complaint, it'll be fixed for sure by the next major update. It's a relatively minor imbalance compared to the type of imbalance you witness in DDO, yet it's getting fixed pretty quickly.

Meanwhile, DDO's ranged combat has been underpowered by over 50% for over four years.

Thus, Cathalo08's comment that World of Warcraft was notorious for its imbalance is invalid. If World of Warcraft has terrible imbalances, then DDO is far worse since it features worse imbalances for a far longer period of time.

Did Fred Brooks work on Blizzard?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%27s_law

KKDragonLord
02-27-2010, 06:56 PM
A_D was not commenting about how quickly they fix everything. He was commenting on how they quickly react to huge imbalance. When a World of Warcraft players complain that X lags behind, they are usually talking about a 10% difference at best and, if it's a valid complaint, it'll be fixed for sure by the next major update. It's a relatively minor imbalance compared to the type of imbalance you witness in DDO, yet it's getting fixed pretty quickly.

Meanwhile, DDO's ranged combat has been underpowered by over 50% for over four years.

Thus, Cathalo08's comment that World of Warcraft was notorious for its imbalance is invalid. If World of Warcraft has terrible imbalances, then DDO is far worse since it features worse imbalances for a far longer period of time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%27s_law

Well Hey Borror

I think A_D can speak for himself dont you?

yeah, tweaks in starcraft, warcraft and even World of Warcraft are indeed a different policy than we have in DDO, its truly as A_D said, a different methodology the company has priorized given the competitive nature of those games where PVP is a Major component of the game.

and no, i did not thought Fred Brooks ever worked on Blizzard, that was a rethoric question. I was pointing out that there are intrisnic differences that MMOs have which i am sure Mr Brooks wasn't covering (on face value at least) with his subject. His point is clearly valid, but MMOs have several tiers and levels of design that given their multilayered aspects and constant renovation, makes compartimentalization of design a definite possibility.

Now lets stop to consider the differences between WoW and DDO for a second.

First, the game was made in such a way that Animation speeds affect the game mechanics, and this is something the devs can't fix, they have been working around it from day one.

Second, DDO is based on D&D rules which means that there are imbalances hardcoded in the game in such a way, that a ham handed approach cannot be used to fix (like say, make all bows that attack half the speed of melee weapons, deal x2 damage to compensate).

Third, there certainly is not enough money to pay for the same level of QA and bugfixes and everything else in the same level WoW can afford, everything must be given a spot in development queue, and if they focused solely on system tweaking we wouldn't get anything else for a year or two and there would be much forum griefing with every change that veered even slightly from PnP and there would be many of those. Imagine that DDO is about class builds more than anything else, if WoW players already complain with every tweaking, What we have in DDO in Class Depth would make the whole process much worse, imagine people dropping like flies everytime something (no matter how small) stopped working as it once did (and they would get to that breaking point after the upteenth change in a couple of months).

Fourth, The Devs have to struggle with a schedule of New Content and Major System Overhauls, Luckly DDO is PVE and PVP is not a priority, so they can make it work somehow despite all the imbalances (and poor AI).

Thats the kind of thing i meant by Apples and Oranges.

Borror0
02-27-2010, 08:17 PM
First, the game was made in such a way that Animation speeds affect the game mechanics, and this is something the devs can't fix, they have been working around it from day one.
I'm not sure why you think it's an issue.

Second, DDO is based on D&D rules which means that there are imbalances hardcoded in the game in such a way, that a ham handed approach cannot be used to fix (like say, make all bows that attack half the speed of melee weapons, deal x2 damage to compensate).
Fidelity to D&D has never been an issue to fix imbalances. If you truly want to use that argument, you'll have to ignore the elephants in the room like grazing hits, enhancements, glancing blows and the liberal implementation of many feats or spells.

Third, there certainly is not enough money to pay for the same level of QA
It's a weak argument to defend the existence of major imbalances for over three years.

Three years is plenty of time to at least attempt to address them, which they have not tried in the case of many (S&B and ranged being the two most obvious).

Fourth, The Devs have to struggle with a schedule of New Content and Major System Overhauls, Luckly DDO is PVE and PVP is not a priority, so they can make it work somehow despite all the imbalances (and poor AI).
Again, three or four years is a more than respectable timeframe to fix major imbalances. We're not talking about minor imbalances. We're talking about imbalances to bad that the playstyle is obviously and drastically weaker than many other alternatives.

Additionally, content and system changes are not done by the same people. Never will Eladrin design a dungeon or a landscape. The most he might do is tell the content designer that he or she has to change something because otherwise it will make it very hard for the system designer to balance the quest. Meanwhile, Keeper won't touch systems in any way; she'll focus on making dungeons. Turbine does HAVE a system team. They just don't make them fix imbalances.

By the way, DDO has probably the best AI of any fantasy MMOs. I'm not sure why you're calling it poor.

Thats the kind of thing i meant by Apples and Oranges.
Everyone in the discussion is aware it's a comparison of apples and oranges, except Cathalo08. The fact that it is apples and oranges is A_D's point: while World of Warcraft players complain of many imbalances, those are very small because the development staff have the resources to fix them all and be pretty balanced.

You, however, are missing the A_D's second point: even taking in consideration Turbine's means, they are underperforming.

That shouldn't be surprising, though. Turbine is a studio that puts the emphasis on innovation rather than polish. Thus, it follows that most of their designers are hired with traits that favor innovation over polish as well.

Angelus_dead
02-27-2010, 08:45 PM
I'm not sure why you think it's an issue.
The animation coupling is a serious obstacle to improving the game balance of DDO, but outsiders cannot know if Turbine has the ability to fix it or not. Technically it shouldn't be a huge programming task to change, but it's clear that their record in editing these things is bad.

The clearest example of that problem would be melee attack speed. It's hilarious to think that a designer wouldn't know how fast characters attack in his own game, but that's exactly what still happens in DDO. Obviously twitching your feet with WASD shouldn't enable more DPS against a stationary target, so why does it still work?

Delacroix21
02-28-2010, 01:35 AM
I think allot of people are missing that my 73 AC is SELF buffed, no blocking, tumbling, action boosts, bard song, ranger barkskin, pally aura, etc. If you are claiming an 80+ then you are definately using some of the above.


But will an ac balance REQUIRE all these buffs? Do Epic mobs REQUIRE a maxxed warchanter in the party? I dont think so...


As for DDO not having the 12 million subscribers (and the money that goes with it) to fix game issues, you really must not have been in DDO long. As Borrow pointed out, issues such as ranged combat have been broken since LAUNCH and go unfixed. Look at the "known issues" thread, it only seems to grow. If they fixed just 1 or two of these an update that would be something, but it seems these fixes are totally not a priority to the Devs.


I love DDO, but its a painful game to stay with when you know that broken things just dont get fixed, new races/classes never get added even close to when promised, and most of DDOs classes still dont have tier 3 PrEs (causing them to be weak compared to those that do).


If I could set a priority list for DDO Devs it would be=
1. give every class 3 tier 3 PrEs
2. give each race a PrE based on their favored class (not just Dragonmark heir! and btw warforged favored class is fighter not barbarian, humans still just get one)
3. Tackle that Known Issues list! (pots while raged etc.)
4. Fix Unarmed Combat (requiring rings and no greensteel is not balanced! also unarmed while moving is ridiculous due to its super duper small range!)
5. Fix Ranged combat (chose unarmed first, but heck do they both at the same time)
6. Allow TWF/multishot feats to effect throwers (this would give them a purpose)
7. Remove some of the strength stacking in DDO (because you seem to balance content on this)
8. Drop DnDs AC system for another
9. Remove the save from combat feats (instead make them work 100% but make the mob immune for a time after use, like heroic surge)
10. Balance spell damage/saves (casters in Epic are firewall/irrestible dancers, its sad)
11. Make some combat feats better (sunder a % fort reduction, etc.)
12. More content


Basically= make the game great, then pump out some more content. Only a small % of ddoers are actively running epics atm anyway, and as much as I would like to see more Epic content I would like to see DDOs problems be fixed.

redgod
02-28-2010, 02:21 AM
i would just like to point out that epic is not 1 on 1,
its about balanced play the best team action you can get sure you may miss well it's epic get over it if you cant handle it take in a few factors.

1. your fighter now needs support better have a decent caster

2. get a monk on epic stunning fist is godlike learn to work together

3. learn to control aggro with a few simple steps epic von 1 is easy and fun

4. your cleric needs to do more than spam mass heal and you need to be self sufficient

this is a team building exercise epic is for the best. be geared, be ready, work together, and you'll finish. these are the base principal issues in D&D and as a extension DDO overcoming challenges (not crying its to hard). no longer will blindly running into a mob swinging whatever flavor greensteel you have instantly guarentee victory.

Tactics are your friend and AC is just the tip of the iceburg wait until other quests go epic if your toon has a flaw itll shine for everyone to see these flaws are built into min/max builds and those who play them learn to work as a group to ballance each other

crying about AC on a epic bugbear is laughable wait for epic orthons in shaverath with heroism bonuses, epic devils teleporting to clerics behind fighters backs, epic elementals holding, tripping and laughing at evasion i cant wait

better go get your A game and get ready to bring it to the table cause if your crying now you might as well stick to normal cause epic is for those of us screaming for a challange

sephiroth1084
02-28-2010, 03:41 AM
i would just like to point out that epic is not 1 on 1,
its about balanced play the best team action you can get sure you may miss well it's epic get over it if you cant handle it take in a few factors.

1. your fighter now needs support better have a decent caster

2. get a monk on epic stunning fist is godlike learn to work together

3. learn to control aggro with a few simple steps epic von 1 is easy and fun

4. your cleric needs to do more than spam mass heal and you need to be self sufficient

this is a team building exercise epic is for the best. be geared, be ready, work together, and you'll finish. these are the base principal issues in D&D and as a extension DDO overcoming challenges (not crying its to hard). no longer will blindly running into a mob swinging whatever flavor greensteel you have instantly guarentee victory.

Tactics are your friend and AC is just the tip of the iceburg wait until other quests go epic if your toon has a flaw itll shine for everyone to see these flaws are built into min/max builds and those who play them learn to work as a group to ballance each other

crying about AC on a epic bugbear is laughable wait for epic orthons in shaverath with heroism bonuses, epic devils teleporting to clerics behind fighters backs, epic elementals holding, tripping and laughing at evasion i cant wait

better go get your A game and get ready to bring it to the table cause if your crying now you might as well stick to normal cause epic is for those of us screaming for a challange
What the **** are you talking about?

uhgungawa
02-28-2010, 03:55 AM
What the **** are you talking about?

He's talking about his only lvl 20 is a monk, and thinks they're the only ones that can stun :rolleyes:. As of DQ and VoN stun is king, might not be in others. And the best stunner I've seen in the game was a fighter not a monk :eek:

Better luck getting into the next group :p j/k

But yes, you do need a team that works together or it becomes a nightmare. AC means less (not nothing, just less) HP, DPS, tactics, And CC are king.

maddmatt70
02-28-2010, 04:49 AM
There is a big difference between the vons and dq epic. In epic dq there really is not relevant ac on any mobs or names, but this is not the case in the vons. It is obvious the devs tinkered with the ac in the vons. In my opinion the vons are closer to a desired ac situation. For instance 73 works to mitigate alot of damage on trash mobs but not red names. A relevant red name ac is a question. What is and should be the relevant ac on epic red names and epic purple names? I think a red names should hit on a 2 at 85 ac - this factors in future epic loot and alot of buffs both situational and others.

There is alot of skill to playing ac characters whether its knowing when and what buffs, asking for buffs, positioning to mitigate damage, good teamplay, etc. You should not just be able to throw on some ac items and think that is good enough, but rather you have to work at.

sephiroth1084
02-28-2010, 04:56 AM
He's talking about his only lvl 20 is a monk, and thinks they're the only ones that can stun :rolleyes:. As of DQ and VoN stun is king, might not be in others. And the best stunner I've seen in the game was a fighter not a monk :eek:

Better luck getting into the next group :p j/k

But yes, you do need a team that works together or it becomes a nightmare. AC means less (not nothing, just less) HP, DPS, tactics, And CC are king.
The point of this thread wasn't to discuss team tactics or stunning or whatever, it was to address the fact that AC builds are almost entirely worthless in epic content, because everything has too high an attack bonus for anything besides stupidly high even begins to matter, which has absolutely nothing to do with team tactics, particularly since their attack bonuses are so high that even debuffing the monsters hardly changes the situation.

Yes, AC doesn't matter if a monster is stunned or otherwise CC'ed, but that isn't the point of the discussion. Hence my comment.

uhgungawa
02-28-2010, 05:18 AM
But the fact is AC is not useless, on red names and up yes. But below that AC can help. As far as tactics go, everyone ha an opinion. Axer will say 1 massive DPS machine with lots of healers, the next person will say a DR/Intim, next a stun-monkey. All will work, it's just a matter of finding out where you it in. Running in with your 80 AC whatever head first against a red named will yes, make one go splat. Knowing this let the Barb with umpteen HP, or the DR guy go first, get the stunner or CC person to do there magic.

In the end, any well built toon can do Epics. It's just being with the right group and knowing where one fits in with said group.

Mithran
02-28-2010, 05:31 AM
I've enjoyed reading most of the posts, here. For the most part, people here have disagreed without being disagreeable.

To the OP:

This game has its own long-term tweaks and balance shifts. For the first year and a half (at least), Rangers were frequently excluded from LFM's because it was so difficult to build an effective Ranger. They received significant buffs, and I've gone from playing a THF Paladin as my main to playing a Ranger as my main, now.

The tides of endgame mechanics ebb and flow. This is currently the Day of the Barbarian where A/C's relevance has been deemphasized in favor of THF dps/enormous Health pools and there's been an enormous increase in the number of THF Warforged in my guild, alone.

The recent upsurge in new Barbarian THF builds is how the players adjust to the changing realities of the endgame as it's defined by Turbine. I know that some (Borror0's posts on the subject comes to mind, if I recall correctly) were missing the effectiveness of sword-n-board builds, a couple years ago (while Rangers reigned supreme) and you can be sure that their day will come, again.

SquelchHU
02-28-2010, 08:22 AM
Everyone in the discussion is aware it's a comparison of apples and oranges, except Cathalo08. The fact that it is apples and oranges is A_D's point: while World of Warcraft players complain of many imbalances, those are very small because the development staff have the resources to fix them all and be pretty balanced.

You, however, are missing the A_D's second point: even taking in consideration Turbine's means, they are underperforming.

That shouldn't be surprising, though. Turbine is a studio that puts the emphasis on innovation rather than polish. Thus, it follows that most of their designers are hired with traits that favor innovation over polish as well.

Even if you compare apples to apples though. Look at Turbine's other games, namely LotR Online. I believe it was you that linked a thread there that got to 55 pages in a matter of a few days where one of the classes took a -30% to incoming healing and that was apparently enough to break the class completely. I'm not familiar with that game so I'm taking their word for it. Now look at DDO. One of the RACES takes a -50% penalty to incoming healing, which becomes -35% with 2 action points. And while Warforged were considered gimp at first, now they are actually regarded as one of the better races. Granted it helps there's another means of healing them that is not penalized, but even when that is not available healing is not so tight that a Cleric or Favored Soul cannot keep up Warforged melee.

Given this I think it safer to say DDO is an aberration in the MMO market in that they are the only one I know of that doesn't try for some sort of tight balance as a design goal, which means that small changes are just that - small changes.

Delacroix21
02-28-2010, 11:51 AM
2. get a monk on epic stunning fist is godlike learn to work together



Are you sure you play on Epic? Beacuse you would know stunning fist almost NEVER hits, only weighted 5% do. The only people I see land stunning blow are Barbs and fighters (once again thanks to DDOs insane strength stacking).


Current monks cant get anywhere NEAR a fighter/barbs stun DC, so its kinda obvious you dont play epic. (P.S. I am a monk, who has probably soloed most quests you wouldnt think possible).


As for a lower poster talking about "gearing up" for AC, I have nearly every DDO ac item there is! I COULD go 7 ac higher if I switched to kamas (put on icys and put insight 4 on tier 3 kama, also switch out ToD ring for chat) but that will not only gimp my dps, but will remove my whole stunning ability. Dont post here about gearing up at all, and if you think AC should REQUIRE bards etc. then hitting these mobs should as well. But lets keep in mind= a maxxed warchanter adds +10 to hit through songs, yet less then 1/2 that to ac, 4! Basically you are asking AC builds to run epics with= 1 bard, 1 pally (with max aura), 1 ranger. Preety narrow group requiring 3 classes and even then thhis wont be enough AC for red named, not by a long shot.


Actually after thinking more about it... I think DnDs ac system can be salvaged, where mobs get a bonus to attack on their later swings like we do. That way His first swing misses, 2nd has a 50% chance to miss, and 3rd hits about 100%.


Current AC gear on my monk=
DT armor= +5 resist, +1 except wis, +4 insight
chaosguards
Shield clickies
bark pots
Combat Expertise
36 dex
28 wis


If I stay unarmed, the most I can raise my AC by is 2. Epic Spectral gloves (just need seal, have shard, scroll, gloves) +3 dex tome, drop a Dragonmark for dodge. Now if Devs actually made Gsteel wraps (I would lose my stun from weighted) but gain 7 more ac (3 chat ring, 4 icy rainment, 4 insight moved to wraps). So tell me oh ddo gurus, what "farming" is left for me to do? Do you see how monks (being your praised ac kings) have to farm and trade so much to get a good ac? (switching out a tod ring for chat). Does the farming a no AC barb has to do even compare? Wanna ask HOW LONG it took to get 4 insight on my DT outfit?! How many runs for Chat ring (from a raid few servers even run anymore). Even realize that monks dont even use +5 weapons in epics which makes it even harder to hit mobs? (+5 weighted 5% are rare and weak, most use +1 holy icyburst of weighted 5% which are still rare as heck)


Trust me when I say you have to play these classes all the way to Epic to know what you are talking about. Personally I think if I rolled up a barb by the time he reached cap he would allready have his Gsteel (have mats, and can be farmed with all your characters) and madstone boots (only bound item truly needed) and really be good to go for most epic content (aside from non-bound clicky items like fireshield etc.) Any other gear for this barb is just icing on the cake, this is not the case for monks or AC builds in general who require more bound gear by a huge margin.

sephiroth1084
02-28-2010, 01:25 PM
But the fact is AC is not useless, on red names and up yes. But below that AC can help. As far as tactics go, everyone ha an opinion. Axer will say 1 massive DPS machine with lots of healers, the next person will say a DR/Intim, next a stun-monkey. All will work, it's just a matter of finding out where you it in. Running in with your 80 AC whatever head first against a red named will yes, make one go splat. Knowing this let the Barb with umpteen HP, or the DR guy go first, get the stunner or CC person to do there magic.

In the end, any well built toon can do Epics. It's just being with the right group and knowing where one fits in with said group.

I was speaking about AC from my little experience in epic DQ content on my AC character where I was being cut through like tissue paper. Perhaps I'll have to give it another try. Maybe the epic VoNs are more forgiving in that regard?

Quikster
02-28-2010, 01:48 PM
Are you sure you play on Epic? Beacuse you would know stunning fist almost NEVER hits, only weighted 5% do. The only people I see land stunning blow are Barbs and fighters (once again thanks to DDOs insane strength stacking).


Current monks cant get anywhere NEAR a fighter/barbs stun DC, so its kinda obvious you dont play epic. (P.S. I am a monk, who has probably soloed most quests you wouldnt think possible).


As for a lower poster talking about "gearing up" for AC, I have nearly every DDO ac item there is! I COULD go 7 ac higher if I switched to kamas (put on icys and put insight 4 on tier 3 kama, also switch out ToD ring for chat) but that will not only gimp my dps, but will remove my whole stunning ability. Dont post here about gearing up at all, and if you think AC should REQUIRE bards etc. then hitting these mobs should as well. But lets keep in mind= a maxxed warchanter adds +10 to hit through songs, yet less then 1/2 that to ac, 4! Basically you are asking AC builds to run epics with= 1 bard, 1 pally (with max aura), 1 ranger. Preety narrow group requiring 3 classes and even then thhis wont be enough AC for red named, not by a long shot.


Actually after thinking more about it... I think DnDs ac system can be salvaged, where mobs get a bonus to attack on their later swings like we do. That way His first swing misses, 2nd has a 50% chance to miss, and 3rd hits about 100%.


Current AC gear on my monk=
DT armor= +5 resist, +1 except wis, +4 insight
chaosguards
Shield clickies
bark pots
Combat Expertise
36 dex
28 wis


If I stay unarmed, the most I can raise my AC by is 2. Epic Spectral gloves (just need seal, have shard, scroll, gloves) +3 dex tome, drop a Dragonmark for dodge. Now if Devs actually made Gsteel wraps (I would lose my stun from weighted) but gain 7 more ac (3 chat ring, 4 icy rainment, 4 insight moved to wraps). So tell me oh ddo gurus, what "farming" is left for me to do? Do you see how monks (being your praised ac kings) have to farm and trade so much to get a good ac? (switching out a tod ring for chat). Does the farming a no AC barb has to do even compare? Wanna ask HOW LONG it took to get 4 insight on my DT outfit?! How many runs for Chat ring (from a raid few servers even run anymore). Even realize that monks dont even use +5 weapons in epics which makes it even harder to hit mobs? (+5 weighted 5% are rare and weak, most use +1 holy icyburst of weighted 5% which are still rare as heck)


Trust me when I say you have to play these classes all the way to Epic to know what you are talking about. Personally I think if I rolled up a barb by the time he reached cap he would allready have his Gsteel (have mats, and can be farmed with all your characters) and madstone boots (only bound item truly needed) and really be good to go for most epic content (aside from non-bound clicky items like fireshield etc.) Any other gear for this barb is just icing on the cake, this is not the case for monks or AC builds in general who require more bound gear by a huge margin.



You make it sound like every dps build is walking out of the box with 70+ to hit so there is a huge imbalance because your 73 selfbuffed ac isnt enough. Once again, I dont see a huge problem in epics, the vons are even easier than the desert. Im sorry you are having such a hard time there, but I dont think it needs anything changed at the moment.

Borror0
02-28-2010, 01:55 PM
Im sorry you are having such a hard time there, but I dont think it needs anything changed at the moment.
You think S&B is well balanced compared to other fighting styles or you think S&B does not need to be well balanced with the other fighting styles?

uhgungawa
02-28-2010, 02:13 PM
AC in simple terms .... (excluding glancing blows)

Everybody gets missed on a 1 = 5% damage reduction

If you only get hit on a 20 = 95% damage reduction

So for every 1 that it take to hit you = another 5% damage reduction. And so if they miss you on a 1-3 but still getting hit the rest of the time you are still migrating 15% (an extra 10% over default) of melee damage that you could be taking. (not sure if mobs get progressive swing bonuses)

**EDIT** Maybe damage reduction is the wrong term to use since it's already used in game for another machanic, so damage migration would be a better term

Delacroix21
02-28-2010, 02:16 PM
You make it sound like every dps build is walking out of the box with 70+ to hit .


Well according to your way of thinking those dps build should "go farm more gear, and Epics arent for everybody". Apparently you hold AC to a higher standard. I spent months (over a year) farming gear for that ac, while barbs and fighters hit level 20 with a Greensteel and are good to go.


If your whole stance is= "well my class isnt effected by this, so I dont care or want anything changed." Then you really arent adding anything of value to the thread. The purpose of this thread is to balance content for ALL classes in ddo, not just a few. If you an show that this and other DDO content is balanced for every class, I am all ears.


I think you will have a seriously hard time debating that current sword and board is balanced as Borrow pointed out. I am also not sure which DDO Dev thought holding down block and pressing intimidate every few seconds was "fun".

redgod
02-28-2010, 02:26 PM
The point of this thread wasn't to discuss team tactics or stunning or whatever, it was to address the fact that AC builds are almost entirely worthless in epic content, because everything has too high an attack bonus for anything besides stupidly high even begins to matter, which has absolutely nothing to do with team tactics, particularly since their attack bonuses are so high that even debuffing the monsters hardly changes the situation.

Yes, AC doesn't matter if a monster is stunned or otherwise CC'ed, but that isn't the point of the discussion. Hence my comment.


well as it seams the point of this thread was to cry Nerf because the op was having a hard time.
ac builds are not worthless if they are part of a balanced team the point of team tactics and party balance is to offset those incredibly high numbers so their is no need for a nerf.

redgod
02-28-2010, 02:36 PM
I am also not sure which DDO Dev thought holding down block and pressing intimidate every few seconds was "fun".

i'm sure it wasn't looked at as fun but an option you should have, apparently many chose this path probably much to the suprise of the dev involved.

Nobody said playing a turtle was going to be the best experience you can have in this game.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 02:53 PM
Well according to your way of thinking those dps build should "go farm more gear, and Epics arent for everybody". Apparently you hold AC to a higher standard. I spent months (over a year) farming gear for that ac, while barbs and fighters hit level 20 with a Greensteel and are good to go.


If your whole stance is= "well my class isnt effected by this, so I dont care or want anything changed." Then you really arent adding anything of value to the thread. The purpose of this thread is to balance content for ALL classes in ddo, not just a few. If you an show that this and other DDO content is balanced for every class, I am all ears.


I think you will have a seriously hard time debating that current sword and board is balanced as Borrow pointed out. I am also not sure which DDO Dev thought holding down block and pressing intimidate every few seconds was "fun".


first, i have ac builds, dps builds, healers, casters, bards. All have run epic and all work well.

Im not going to tell you that all the classes are totally balanced, but they are a lot closer than a year ago. S&b should not have the same dps as thf or twf, ac builds should not have the same dps as a dps build.

If a melee is getting to 20 and going in with a gs, they are missing a lot, so they should farm more gear. I also dont think your self buffed 73 ac should do much for you in epic. Get some buffs, use some strategy, and learn how to contribute, dont come in here crying for a nerf of the hardest content in the game. News flash, its supposed to be hard, imo its not hard enough.

Borror0
02-28-2010, 03:07 PM
Get some buffs, use some strategy, and learn how to contribute, dont come in here crying for a nerf of the hardest content in the game. News flash, its supposed to be hard, imo its not hard enough.
The complaint is not "it's too hard" but rather "S&B can't contribute enough." It's easy to get confused into thinking that a request to nerf monsters is motivated by the desire to make the content easier; however, that would be misunderstanding the complaint: nerfing Epic monsters' to-hit would not make content Epic content easier.

Currently, the best strategy involves characters with practically no Armor Class. That is, the best parties do not comprise of characters who care about Armor class. Since lower to-hit (or larger meaningful to-hit range) would have no effect on those characters. It would only benefit the weaker characters that do rely on Armor class to be effective, however.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 03:16 PM
The complaint is not "it's too hard" but rather "S&B can't contribute enough." It's easy to get confused into thinking that a request to nerf monsters is motivated by the desire to make the content easier; however, that would be misunderstanding the complaint: nerfing Epic monsters' to-hit would not make content Epic content easier.

Currently, the best strategy involves characters with practically no Armor Class. That is, the best parties do not comprise of characters who care about Armor class. Since lower to-hit (or larger meaningful to-hit range) would have no effect on those characters. It would only benefit the weaker characters that do rely on Armor class to be effective, however.

really borr the best strategy is like any other quest in the game, utilize the parties strengths.

The op's complaint seems to revolve around his issues with epic mobs to hit, which based on his other posts, is in relation to his monk ac.

I dont think a self buffed ac (any self buffed ac) should make much of a difference in epic. If that self buffed ac is on the cusp of making a difference then a buffed ac (+4 bard 2 ranger, +2 cleric +? paly) would start making a differnce. The OP is complaining that his ac which he farmed a year to get, is not enough (at least thats what hes arguing with me about, i am not entering into the Turbine needs to address imbalances quicker etc debate ) and I disagree. His ac should be around 87+ before it makes a noticeable difference imo.


Edit::Just to add, we run epics daily in guild. We dont ever ask someone to bring bigger dps, or less ac. We ask for well balanced parties. We do like to have a bard for von 6, but really how much different is wanting big dps for the epic raid any different than any of the other high level raids where there is no dedicated tank, or only 1 dedicated tank? All those raids, particularly when they were new, were best completed with big heavy hitters.

All my ac builds are capable of dealing out above average dps. I never feel like a waste bringing them into epic content. If the party strategy is to go dps then fine lets do that, if we want to use someone to control agro, fine lets do that, but to complain that a mob hits your 73 ac in epic is silly. Its epic, 73 ac isnt anywhere near the highest ac you can get. 73 ac gets you pwnd by raid bosses on ToD/vod elite, why should epic be any differnet.

Delacroix21
02-28-2010, 03:21 PM
The complaint is not "it's too hard" but rather "S&B can't contribute enough." It's easy to get confused into thinking that a request to nerf monsters is motivated by the desire to make the content easier; however, that would be misunderstanding the complaint: nerfing Epic monsters' to-hit would not make content Epic content easier.

Currently, the best strategy involves characters with practically no Armor Class. That is, the best parties do not comprise of characters who care about Armor class. Since lower to-hit (or larger meaningful to-hit range) would have no effect on those characters. It would only benefit the weaker characters that do rely on Armor class to be effective, however.

Thank you Borro.


The above poster you can really stop repeating= get some buffs, use different strategies, etc. Because it really translates to= either run with a VERY specific party (not only classes but builds), or just make do with this current broken mechanic.


As for things being closer then they were before, are we playing the same DDO? 2 handed and TWF always did more then sword and board, but it used to not be by such a huge margin as it is now. The difference now is not= more dps (THF&TWF) vs. less (S&B) like it used to be. It has become= viable vs. waste of a party slot.


Many people (including myself) have suggested shield feats also increasing sword and board dps through some kind of alacrity bonus (we are not asking for a FREE dps increase) as DDO slides down a slippery slope into Barbarian land. Even casters in Epic are losing all purpose aside from a select few spells. Trust me when I say DDO balance is getting WORSE each mod, not BETTER.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 03:24 PM
Thank you Borro.


The above poster you can really stop repeating= get some buffs, use different strategies, etc. Because it really translates to= either run with a VERY specific party (not only classes but builds), or just make do with this current broken mechanic.


As for things being closer then they were before, are we playing the same DDO? 2 handed and TWF always did more then sword and board, but it used to not be by such a huge margin as it is now. The difference now is not= more dps (THF&TWF) vs. less (S&B) like it used to be. It has become= viable vs. waste of a party slot.


Many people (including myself) have suggested shield feats also increasing sword and board dps through some kind of alacrity bonus (we are not asking for a FREE dps increase) as DDO slides down a slippery slope into Barbarian land. Even casters in Epic are losing all purpose aside from a select few spells. Trust me when I say DDO balance is getting WORSE each mod, not BETTER.

Casters losing effectiveness in epic? Few specific spells? What fw and ottos?


I would rather see bigger #'s for DR with shield feats, or larger ac bonuses. Why in the world should s&b do better dps? That makes no sense. If they want to do dps they should drop the shield.


As I stated to borr, we run this in guild all the time and never ask someone for more dps or less ac. We try to make balanced partys. I dont think thats really a big deal considering its supposed to be the hardest content in the game. There should be some conssesions. We should have to bring healers to epic content, we should have to have casters, bards should make things a whole lot easier.

Delacroix21
02-28-2010, 03:30 PM
His ac should be around 87+ before it makes a noticeable difference imo.

Lets see you put numbers to paper buddy, as arguing with you and these phantom ACs is tiring. Show me a competant build with 87+ ac (no action boosts etc.). Then show me how this same build can be buffed over 100 (not action boosts, just buffs) since as you say they should only START seeing a difference at 87.


P.S. if your character is blocking or tumbling then he is not contributing, so he needs a standing ac of 87+ without the buffs of every class out there. Here is what is acceptable=
1. Recictation (should always have a healer)
2. Bark pots (not store bought or yug as content shouldnt be "balanced" around this)
3. No Bard/Pally/Ranger if they are REQUIRED to be in the party for an AC build to be balanced then that is BROKEN (if you allow one its JUST 1, and doubtfull the pally has full ac aura)
4. Haste
5. Shield clicky
6. Shroud insight 4

At that point if you are requiring Icy Rainments or Chattering ring, you are allready requiring MORE then no AC toons are REQUIRED to posses. Note I said REQUIRED, no ac dps toons will benefit from some guards etc. but they are NOT required for them to be viable in Epics.


So go ahead and show me the build!:D

sephiroth1084
02-28-2010, 03:30 PM
I would rather see bigger #'s for DR with shield feats, or larger ac bonuses. Why in the world should s&b do better dps? That makes no sense. If they want to do dps they should drop the shield.



They should deal more DPS (than they currently do) simply because DPS is such a huge factor in the game at this point, and being so far behind makes their inclusion in a party often undesirable.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 03:35 PM
They should deal more DPS (than they currently do) simply because DPS is such a huge factor in the game at this point, and being so far behind makes their inclusion in a party often undesirable.

I disagee. I think there should be a big dps penalty for picking up a shield. I do however think that the DR of people who specialize in shields should be increased, shield crafting should be an option for customization purposes, and a slight increase in shields ac bonuses. But more dps no i disagree.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 03:55 PM
Lets see you put numbers to paper buddy, as arguing with you and these phantom ACs is tiring. Show me a competant build with 87+ ac (no action boosts etc.). Then show me how this same build can be buffed over 100 (not action boosts, just buffs) since as you say they should only START seeing a difference at 87.


P.S. if your character is blocking or tumbling then he is not contributing, so he needs a standing ac of 87+ without the buffs of every class out there. Here is what is acceptable=
1. Recictation (should always have a healer)
2. Bark pots (not store bought or yug as content shouldnt be "balanced" around this)
3. No Bard/Pally/Ranger if they are REQUIRED to be in the party for an AC build to be balanced then that is BROKEN (if you allow one its JUST 1, and doubtfull the pally has full ac aura)
4. Haste
5. Shield clicky
6. Shroud insight 4

At that point if you are requiring Icy Rainments or Chattering ring, you are allready requiring MORE then no AC toons are REQUIRED to posses. Note I said REQUIRED, no ac dps toons will benefit from some guards etc. but they are NOT required for them to be viable in Epics.


So go ahead and show me the build!:D

Well now putting a few restrictions on things huh? I never said buffed to over 100, i said at 87 they should start noticing a difference.

IMO you cant say no outside buffs are allowed, unless you want to take those away completely. The game needs to be balanced around party buffs as well, just because you dont want to run with them in your group doesnt mean nobody will.

Once again, you are making it sound like any dps focused build with a greensteel weapons is going to go into epic and tear it up. That simply isnt true, and if you think it is you havent played dps builds before.


10 base
07 Dex
15 armor
09 shield
05 deflection
04 nat armor
03 sd
04 stance
05 ce
02 alchemical
04 insight
01 dodge
03 chattering ring
02 chaosguarde
02 set bonus
______________
76 stanced no buffs

01 haste
02 recitation
03 bard song or paly
______________

82

dps builds would need to farm bloodstone/tharnes (or litany mentau combo), madstone boots, titan gloves for clicky, tod set for exceptional str and too hit bonus. Even with these things without a bard turning PA on is very situational, unless they have epic spectral gloves, or are sacrificing dps using an imp destruction weapon.


Im sorry, I disagree that easy to get ac should be >50% effective in epic content. Saying that dps builds dont have to gear up and farm is also misleading, they still need top notch gear unless they want to miss more than 50% of the time with PA on. I also disagree that we should be able to get meaningful ac with any party make up. For most content that is already the case. Your self buffed ac can tank sulu on norm, horoth on norm (unless you have light hp) and harry on hard and take very little damage. Want to step up into epic, get some epic gear, buffs, or groups. This is not supposed to be ez.

sephiroth1084
02-28-2010, 04:02 PM
I disagee. I think there should be a big dps penalty for picking up a shield. I do however think that the DR of people who specialize in shields should be increased, shield crafting should be an option for customization purposes, and a slight increase in shields ac bonuses. But more dps no i disagree.
Why should the DPS penalty be so large? Do the Dex-based AC guys pay as big a cost for their (often higher) AC?

How much more defense can be built into shields in order to make the choice attractive enough to off-set the DPS downside? How much passive DR would be enough without being too much?

I agree that shields could still use a boost in terms of their usefulness in defending oneself without having to hold down block for long periods of time, but S&B style could also use an increase in DPS. It has been a while since I looked at a DPS breakdown comparing the styles, but I'd imagine that S&B is still behind by over 25%, probably even more than that. And for what gain?

Quikster
02-28-2010, 04:14 PM
Why should the DPS penalty be so large? Do the Dex-based AC guys pay as big a cost for their (often higher) AC?

How much more defense can be built into shields in order to make the choice attractive enough to off-set the DPS downside? How much passive DR would be enough without being too much?

I agree that shields could still use a boost in terms of their usefulness in defending oneself without having to hold down block for long periods of time, but S&B style could also use an increase in DPS. It has been a while since I looked at a DPS breakdown comparing the styles, but I'd imagine that S&B is still behind by over 25%, probably even more than that. And for what gain?

Yes dex based builds suffer. I suppose if you want to require a 3 feat chain to enhance attack speed a little that wouldnt be a big deal. But personllay I would rather go twf/thf and spend a fewat or two to imp ac or dr on shields.

xtchizobr
02-28-2010, 04:35 PM
...Shadowbane...

alas! shadowbane.... it should have been.

in other news, DDO is still very well balanced up to level 20. the rhyme doesn't noticeably break down until then, in my experience.

RATRACE931
02-28-2010, 05:27 PM
OP, I decided to concede the point a few pages back and keep my mouth shut because A_D explained your confussing point to me (Or so i thought) in terms i couldn't argue or dispute less I be cosidered some bigot towards any AC, and yet it seems he, not I was mistaken.

This post is not a debate whether or not your 73 AC is to low for Epic, it just another way for you to vent and bash DPS builds. At every turn if anyone disagrees with you nearly every response has either called them what breaks down to "A stupid barb with no insights into the AC world." You bash DPS by saying all they need is a Greensteel weapon. Well I say this, you sir have no insights into either AC or the DPS facets of this game. Something a stupid as saying Greensteel weapon is all a barb needs is equally rediculous as someone telling a monk all they need is Icy Rainments and your build is complete. You have rediculed respective captains of this game and demanded they back up their "builds" with evidence but refuse to show any yourself, while allowing people like A_D and Borro0 to make legitimate intelligent points and latch yourself on to them.

The 100+ AC builds i would LOVE to have one with me in Epic as they could attain "Untouchable" ac while entering Wind Stance and stunning everything in sight for us and the group, and no healer would have to worry about babysitting them. Every well thought out, well equiped build has a great niche in an Epic party, I can think of places for every S&B, TWF, THF and ISBWGT <-- stands for (Intimidating Shield Blocking Wierd Guard Thing)

When someone says "Get buffs" you say well I shouldn't have too, when we say "Grind more gear" you say I've spent a year doing just that. You are a founder, as a fellow founder who simply waited to long to creat a forum tag, I say you and I both know 1 year spent grinding out equipment means most likely you have another year to go, am I correct? As for the buffs you do not need a "very specific" party to get any of the party buffs, any lvl 16 bard variation build, any 18 or higher palidan and you can get full party buffs (give or take 1-2 AC). Recitation scrolls/wands now last 1 minute 30 seconds and are cheap and relitively low UMD, Yuggoloth potions have +4 nat armor, as does madstone. Haste is such a ready comodity im surprised casters don't as US for hastes.

I have to give A_D props because everyone in this post who is agaisnt the To-Hit for epics mobs only he has stayed on subject and made good points, you say your tired of theorectical AC, well I'm tired of people make new post just to complain about S&B damage.



PS: I think everyone would love to see your 73 AC builds breakdown, gear included. Show us yours and we will show you ours. Ill even get you a link to the 87+ AC build that can contribute VERY much to a Epic group.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 05:34 PM
OP, I decided to concede the point a few pages back and keep my mouth shut because A_D explained your confussing point to me (Or so i thought) in terms i couldn't argue or dispute less I be cosidered some bigot towards any AC, and yet it seems he, not I was mistaken.

This post is not a debate whether or not your 73 AC is to low for Epic, it just another way for you to vent and bash DPS builds. At every turn if anyone disagrees with you nearly every response has either called them what breaks down to "A stupid barb with no insights into the AC world." You bash DPS by saying all they need is a Greensteel weapon. Well I say this, you sir have no insights into either AC or the DPS facets of this game. Something a stupid as saying Greensteel weapon is all a barb needs is equally rediculous as someone telling a monk all they need is Icy Rainments and your build is complete. You have rediculed respective captains of this game and demanded they back up their "builds" with evidence but refuse to show any yourself, while allowing people like A_D and Borro0 to make legitimate intelligent points and latch yourself on to them.

The 100+ AC builds i would LOVE to have one with me in Epic as they could attain "Untouchable" ac while entering Wind Stance and stunning everything in sight for us and the group, and no healer would have to worry about babysitting them. Every well thought out, well equiped build has a great niche in an Epic party, I can think of places for every S&B, TWF, THF and ISBWGT <-- stands for (Intimidating Shield Blocking Wierd Guard Thing)

When someone says "Get buffs" you say well I shouldn't have too, when we say "Grind more gear" you say I've spent a year doing just that. You are a founder, as a fellow founder who simply waited to long to creat a forum tag, I say you and I both know 1 year spent grinding out equipment means most likely you have another year to go, am I correct? As for the buffs you do not need a "very specific" party to get any of the party buffs, any lvl 16 bard variation build, any 18 or higher palidan and you can get full party buffs (give or take 1-2 AC). Recitation scrolls/wands now last 1 minute 30 seconds and are cheap and relitively low UMD, Yuggoloth potions have +4 nat armor, as does madstone. Haste is such a ready comodity im surprised casters don't as US for hastes.

I have to give A_D props because everyone in this post who is agaisnt the To-Hit for epics mobs only he has stayed on subject and made good points, you say your tired of theorectical AC, well I'm tired of people make new post just to complain about S&B damage.



PS: I think everyone would love to see your 73 AC builds breakdown, gear included. Show us yours and we will show you ours. Ill even get you a link to the 87+ AC build that can contribute VERY much to a Epic group.


honestly, if the epic mobs too hit is too high (which i disagree) then we should raise the epic mobs ac before we nerf their to hit. Epic is supposed to be a challenge, the best of the best. You want easy untouchable one shots, go to casual, thats why its there. Dont make epic any easier, if anything, make it harder. (dont break it in the process though :) )

Borror0
02-28-2010, 05:42 PM
I think there should be a big dps penalty for picking up a shield.
He said he felt S&B should do more DPS, not that there should be no DPS loss for wearing a shield.

really borr the best strategy is like any other quest in the game, utilize the parties strengths.
If this was true, it would mean that all characters are balanced one to another and that party composition is irrelevant. That, however, does not stand to scrutiny: ranged combat is ridiculously weak, a party without an healer will have an harder time, etc. It would be more accurate to say that the best strategy is to build the party the most suited to beat the encounter easily and to utilizes the party's strength.

I dont think a self buffed ac (any self buffed ac) should make much of a difference in epic. If that self buffed ac is on the cusp of making a difference then a buffed ac (+4 bard 2 ranger, +2 cleric +? paly) would start making a differnce.
In a party of six, that's an unrealistic thing to ask for. It's somewhat acceptable when there are eleven other players in the party as at least then the odds of having a bard, a ranger and a paladin to help you at once are good. However, in a party of six, it's just too tight of a restriction. At that point, one of two thing will happen: either AC builds are so strong that every epic party will comprise of an AC build, a paladin, a bard, a ranger, a cleric or a favored soul and then whatever else for the two pother spots (which would really suck) or AC builds will be underpowered because only rarely will they have the required buffs to be balanced.

Currently, the latter is happening: AC builds are too weak without all the AC buffs and are therefore underpowered.

That reality is due to several flaws in DDO's design that needs fixing:
1. The range of meaningful Armor Class is too narrow.
2. Many buffs are too overpowered or lack weaker alternatives offered by other classes.
3. Too many builds don't care about AC, so AC buffs only affect AC builds.

sephiroth1084
02-28-2010, 05:48 PM
The fact is, Rat, that a purely DPS character (fighter, barbarian, ranger, rogue, whatever) has much less gear that they depend upon and have to grind for in order to perform. Ignoring the standard stat items, what do they need? How much DPS comes from stuff other than their weapon?

Compare that with the Christmas tree of equipment that an AC character requires in order to attain a significant AC. Also compare the difference between being a few points lower in DPS, and a few points lower in AC: the one will take a little longer to get things done, but the difference will likely go unnoticed by most players, whereas the other will be having their primary purpose (as far as how they were built) dramatically impinged upon.

Now, sure, an AC build whose AC isn't cutting it can still contribute DPS, but even then, unless they have a true DPS option built in, their damage will still be less than most under-geared DPS builds. So, if an AC character's AC isn't cutting it, why bring an AC character along? And if the AC character is undesirable, why build it in the first place. Obviously, this dire outlook does not reflect the case for all content, but for epic, it (may) clearly be the case. I say may, only because I have yet to try my AC character in all of the epic quests (mostly due to how poorly he performed in Epic DQ 1 and 2), and he has a DPS option (GTHF).

Also, let's look at epic DPS items vs. epic AC items. At most your AC can increase by 3-5 points by upgrading your armor and shield (2 pieces) to a piece of epic loot (although you likely lose out on the slot consolidation and special effects granted by DT armor). As for epic weaponry, many of them represent a noticeable jump in DPS or DPS effects (Xuum, SoS). Perhaps not the same 10-25% increase in applicability that the armor grants, but the armor may also not even affect the usefulness of your AC at all.

[Edit] Oh, and the 100+ AC builds are almost entirely worthless because they can't hit anything, have low DPS, and likely lower HP as well, which means that while they aren't getting hit by melee attacks, unavoidable damage is probably killing them, and they are still causing the healers to expend more resources because the fights are taking longer and everyone else is getting hit more. But maybe the guy has a high Intimidate also. Fine, one character who has sacrificed their ability to do just about anything else has made the quest a breeze. That leaves out everyone else. What S&B tank is going to hit 100 AC? 90? Even with ideal buffs?

PS. Your tone, Rat, was really unnecessary.

Delacroix21
02-28-2010, 06:17 PM
Well now putting a few restrictions on things huh? I never said buffed to over 100, i said at 87 they should start noticing a difference.

IMO you cant say no outside buffs are allowed, unless you want to take those away completely. The game needs to be balanced around party buffs as well, just because you dont want to run with them in your group doesnt mean nobody will.

Once again, you are making it sound like any dps focused build with a greensteel weapons is going to go into epic and tear it up. That simply isnt true, and if you think it is you havent played dps builds before.


10 base
07 Dex
15 armor
09 shield
05 deflection
04 nat armor
03 sd
04 stance
05 ce
02 alchemical
04 insight
01 dodge
03 chattering ring
02 chaosguarde
02 set bonus
______________
76 stanced no buffs

01 haste
02 recitation
03 bard song or paly
______________

82

dps builds would need to farm bloodstone/tharnes (or litany mentau combo), madstone boots, titan gloves for clicky, tod set for exceptional str and too hit bonus. Even with these things without a bard turning PA on is very situational, unless they have epic spectral gloves, or are sacrificing dps using an imp destruction weapon.


Im sorry, I disagree that easy to get ac should be >50% effective in epic content. Saying that dps builds dont have to gear up and farm is also misleading, they still need top notch gear unless they want to miss more than 50% of the time with PA on. I also disagree that we should be able to get meaningful ac with any party make up. For most content that is already the case. Your self buffed ac can tank sulu on norm, horoth on norm (unless you have light hp) and harry on hard and take very little damage. Want to step up into epic, get some epic gear, buffs, or groups. This is not supposed to be ez.

That is a gimped S&B toon in stances and a chattering ring, not a regular ac dps build.


So as to wake you up, dps/ac monks/ranger/pallies etc. need all the same dps gear your toons need. THAT is why it is harder to farm. BECAUSE WE NEED BOTH!


As for the 100 party buffed ac, yes you basically DID say this way needed. You stated they should START seeing a difference at 87, not be at their target. Not to mention the fact that your S&B build doesnt even HAVE 87 ac! Which means he will see ZERO beneit of from his AC according to you (as 87 is needed to START to see a difference).


As for limiting buffs from other classes of course! If an AC build REQUIRES the buffs from 3 other classes to be viable, then the toon itself is not viable. What should the monk put in the LFM then I wonder? "Must be a bard, ranger, or maxxed AC aura paladin. 1 Healer and Caster spot left open".



For RatRace=

This is not a dps Bash in any way, shape, or form. It only seems this way when dps builds with no ac show up and tell an ac character that the system is fine, or that they should farm more gear, or that gearing up dps (namely fighters and barbs) is anywhere near the same as gearing an AC focused toon.


I am speaking from strictly the perspective of a MONK here (though monk splashed rogues/rangers/pallies are compareable), I am NOT a S&B toon (who have a different set of issues including AC). If you have READ my posts, you would see that I have ALLREADY farmed every piece of AC gear in ddo (sans epic spectral gloves to raise my ac another point). So if you tell me to farm more gear, why dont you point out what I should farm ok?


It is not a bash to say fighters and barbs require only a Gsteel weapon to be viable in epic, it is the truth. Additional gear helps these 2 class dps toons, but they can contribute without it. To build an AC toon requires gear from a multitude of raids, random drops, and stat allocation that is a feat in and of itself. You did not accomplish anything special by putting every level up point into strength after maxing strength and con at creation.


Do you honestly want to compare managing 2 stats (str, con) with managing 4? (strength, dex, con, wis). Can an AC build turn OFF combat expertise to hit epic mobs while a strength build turns off PA? Not without taking a big hit to ac they cant (could be the difference between being missed 30% to 5%). Gearing my monk to max his ac (while still maintaining viable= dps, hps, and to hit) has been my hardest experience in ddo. It required a massive amount of farming to accomplish and I am very proud of what he has become.


Let me put it to you simply=
1. A no ac dps toon with the amount of gear Shade has will CRUSH a similar barb/fighter in dps and Epic viability.
2. But one doesnt NEED Shade's farmed gear etc. to BE viable as a dpser at end game, he probably just has to turn PA off while Shade does not.

1. A ac toon withOUT a ton of farming has the equivalent AC of ZERO in epic content, and thus is not a viable character (he is better off lesser reincarnating and reallocating his stats to max strength and con)
2. A ac toon WITH a TON of farming has a "decent" ac against regular epic mobs, but an ac of ZERO against red named (and so even with his 1 year+ of farming, he is better off as strength and con).

This should not be the case...



I LOVE Barbs, and I have ABSOLUTELY ZERO problem with the fact that it is THEY not ME my monk who really does the damage to bring down Epic Mobs. I Stun, they kill, I am TOTALLY fine with that! What I am NOT fine with is the current AC situation. I target barbs specifically here, as I have found often that they are the first to step in and argue against a buff for ac builds, as they have no ac to speak of themselves.


I am also upset that after LR my human (what I thought to be "gimped" monk as he has 1/2 the gear my halfling has) and devoting all his stats to str and con (with enough dex to TWF) that he is proving more viable in Epic. He has a ton of hp and a bunch of toughness feats, great dps, great healing amp, etc. and gets hits every swing like my ac toon! So as you can see I am not merely comparing Barbs to Monks, but even MONKS to MONKS!



Listen...

I am all for Devs removing allot of the stackability of AC so ridiculous numbers can not be reached. I just want AC in general to have a purpose again. AC SHOULD matter to every class! Fighters/Barbs running around in robes is just a sad example of how bad ac is balanced in DDO. Lets see those fighters put back on that plate, and barbs hunting hard for mithral full plate! Give them a REASON to ddo Devs! Lets see CAPS on AC! Caps on to-hit! etc. So no one will care if you can buff your ac past 80, as 80 is the Cap (50% reduction on epic?)!


Do many other DDOers seriously see no problem with content being balanced around ridiculous numbers through stacking? Does anyone else remeber how DnD 3.5 was plagued with builds that made Godlike characters due to insane stacking issues?

Quikster
02-28-2010, 06:21 PM
He said he felt S&B should do more DPS, not that there should be no DPS loss for wearing a shield.

If this was true, it would mean that all characters are balanced one to another and that party composition is irrelevant. That, however, does not stand to scrutiny: ranged combat is ridiculously weak, a party without an healer will have an harder time, etc. It would be more accurate to say that the best strategy is to build the party the most suited to beat the encounter easily and to utilizes the party's strength.


While i dont disagree persay, I dont run this way. For the most part in 6 man epic content so long as we have a caster, and a healer, the rest can pretty much be anything.



In a party of six, that's an unrealistic thing to ask for. It's somewhat acceptable when there are eleven other players in the party as at least then the odds of having a bard, a ranger and a paladin to help you at once are good. However, in a party of six, it's just too tight of a restriction. At that point, one of two thing will happen: either AC builds are so strong that every epic party will comprise of an AC build, a paladin, a bard, a ranger, a cleric or a favored soul and then whatever else for the two pother spots (which would really suck) or AC builds will be underpowered because only rarely will they have the required buffs to be balanced.

Currently, the latter is happening: AC builds are too weak without all the AC buffs and are therefore underpowered.

That reality is due to several flaws in DDO's design that needs fixing:
1. The range of meaningful Armor Class is too narrow.
2. Many buffs are too overpowered or lack weaker alternatives offered by other classes.
3. Too many builds don't care about AC, so AC buffs only affect AC builds.

Ok well i believe in my ac breakdown in response to the OP i gave a +3 for either ranger (+1) bard (+4) or paly (max of +6) I think its fair to include one of these. For str or dps calcs we include bardsong usually, i think its a fair comparison.

I agree the d20 does not do justice to ac in this game. But this post and my argument are in relation to the nerf the op calls for. Its unecessary to nerf epic mobs to hit. In order to avoid damage (with ac) in epic, you need stellar ac. The best. Im not sure why epic settings should forgive less than stellar ac. My dex rog needs to buff up his to hit in order to hit things reliably, my kensai needs to either have bard songs or he misses more than i like with PA on. Both have high to hits but could be higher, but im not here complaining that the ac is to high, I have to farm more or get outside buffs in order to hit. I dont come complain because its EPIC. I want it to be hard.

Krag
02-28-2010, 06:21 PM
The 100+ AC builds i would LOVE to have one with me in Epic as they could attain "Untouchable" ac while entering Wind Stance and stunning everything in sight for us and the group, and no healer would have to worry about babysitting them. Every well thought out, well equiped build has a great niche in an Epic party, I can think of places for every S&B, TWF, THF and ISBWGT <-- stands for (Intimidating Shield Blocking Wierd Guard Thing)


I would really love to see a 100+ AC build who can also HIT things.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 06:25 PM
That is a gimped S&B toon in stances and a chattering ring, not a regular ac dps build.


So as to wake you up, dps/ac monks/ranger/pallies etc. need all the same dps gear your toons need. THAT is why it is harder to farm. BECAUSE WE NEED BOTH!


So I basically stopped reading after this. This shows me that you want an easy button. You want ac and dps, play casual. It prolly better suited for you. If you want to discuss this without insulting, and with actual real game scenarios, feel free.

Borror0
02-28-2010, 06:26 PM
While i dont disagree persay, I dont run this way.
Neither do I. I was simply refuting your counterargument.

Im not sure why epic settings should forgive less than stellar ac.
Because the Epic setting forgives less than stellar DPS.

Your DPS does not suddenly become irrelevant simply because you're slightly undergeared or lack a few buffs.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 06:34 PM
Neither do I. I was simply refuting your counterargument.

Because the Epic setting forgives less than stellar DPS.

Your DPS does not suddenly become irrelevant simply because you're slightly undergeared or lack a few buffs.

On epic quests no they take longer and require more resources with less then stellar dps.

The problem you are describing has more to do with the ac mechanic in general then the mobs to hit in epic. People are just not used to getting hit with 70+ ac. They step in epic and get smacked around. Im totally ok with ac getting changed, im not ok with making epic content easier. If there should be a change, it should be to make epic mobs be harder to hit, or have regen. Then the less than stellar dps'rs will suffer as well.

Delacroix21
02-28-2010, 06:41 PM
So I basically stopped reading after this. This shows me that you want an easy button. You want ac and dps, play casual. It prolly better suited for you. If you want to discuss this without insulting, and with actual real game scenarios, feel free. But im done responding to this garbage.

I said AC toons still need to farm dps gear, as they are still "techinically" dps characters.


----Edit---
Edited out my comment. But yes Quick, an ac toon is still responsible for bringing dps to the party. Basically when considering an ac toon vs a non-ac dps=

1. ac toon= higher ac, non-ac= more hp
2. ac toon= higher ac, non-ac= more dps (ac pumps dex, non-ac strength)
3. ac toon= higher ac, non-ac= higher combat feat DCs ( dex vs strength again)

Both are still "dps" characters, with the non-ac taking the edge in dps, and the ac taking the edge in survivability (this is not currently working in Epic). Perhaps presented in this way we can move forward constructively.

Delacroix21
02-28-2010, 06:48 PM
The simple fact is AC (amoung other things) in DDO need to be capped, with content balanced around said caps.


Without caps, I see DDO running into the same unbalancing issues that PnP 3.5 did (inlcuding the NwNs video games).

Borror0
02-28-2010, 07:01 PM
On epic quests no they take longer and require more resources with less then stellar dps.
Correct, but that's completely different than what happens in the case of AC builds.

Low AC does not only mean less effective. It also means that you're no longer doing your job (ie you're DPSing rather than tanking). DPS builds don't get penalized the same way that AC builds get penalized. That's the problem.

The problem you are describing has more to do with the ac mechanic in general then the mobs to hit in epic.
It's an interdependent relationship: if one is changed, the problem with the other one is at least partially fixed. It boils down to which one is most likely to be fixed. Historically speaking, Turbine has been reluctant to make complicated changes even if they would be greatly beneficial so the simpler your request is the more likely you are to be listened... As a bonus, it would act only as a band aid - a temporary fix - and that is also something that Turbine seems to enjoy, historically speaking once course.

Im totally ok with ac getting changed, im not ok with making epic content easier.
It's not being made easier; it's being normalized: the efficiency of weaker builds increases but the stronger ones remain unchanged.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 07:46 PM
Correct, but that's completely different than what happens in the case of AC builds.

Low AC does not only mean less effective. It also means that you're no longer doing your job (ie you're DPSing rather than tanking). DPS builds don't get penalized the same way that AC builds get penalized. That's the problem.

It's an interdependent relationship: if one is changed, the problem with the other one is at least partially fixed. It boils down to which one is most likely to be fixed. Historically speaking, Turbine has been reluctant to make complicated changes even if they would be greatly beneficial so the simpler your request is the more likely you are to be listened... As a bonus, it would act only as a band aid - a temporary fix - and that is also something that Turbine seems to enjoy, historically speaking once course.

It's not being made easier; it's being normalized: the efficiency of weaker builds increases but the stronger ones remain unchanged.

ok I dont want it normalized. I want epic to be hard. If a player is on a weaker build, he should feel like it.


As far as the ac mechanic, I dont have a lot of control over it, I'm not going to come up with a new idea, though you can bet id comment on one :) I'm not going to post a bunch of complaints, I'm going to play the system in its form (whatever form its in at the time) to the best of my ability.

If mobs in epic were harder to hit then the problem with EPIC would be much better, but not the overall problem of the ac mechanic, which is really nothing to do with epic.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 07:50 PM
I said AC toons still need to farm dps gear, as they are still "techinically" dps characters.


----Edit---
Edited out my comment. But yes Quick, an ac toon is still responsible for bringing dps to the party. Basically when considering an ac toon vs a non-ac dps=

1. ac toon= higher ac, non-ac= more hp
2. ac toon= higher ac, non-ac= more dps (ac pumps dex, non-ac strength)
3. ac toon= higher ac, non-ac= higher combat feat DCs ( dex vs strength again)

Both are still "dps" characters, with the non-ac taking the edge in dps, and the ac taking the edge in survivability (this is not currently working in Epic). Perhaps presented in this way we can move forward constructively.

when you use phrases like "taking an edge" i dont buy into this. My dps builds far surpass the dps of my ac builds and vise versa.

Honestly its really a moot point here though. You think mobs to hit is too high, I dont. You think that 73 self buffed ac should be adequate, I dont.

I can buy making less than stellar dps builds suffer more in epic, that is something ill get behind. But I wont get behind dropping the to hit of epic mobs.

Borror0
02-28-2010, 07:57 PM
If a player is on a weaker build, he should feel like it.
...and you feel AC builds deserve to be less powerful than DPS builds because ______.

Either it's an imbalance that needs to be fixed or it's working as designed and it's that way for a very good reason that you can share with us.

Lleren
02-28-2010, 08:05 PM
If mobs in epic were harder to hit then the problem with EPIC would be much better, but not the overall problem of the ac mechanic, which is really nothing to do with epic.

High end content tends to show where the problems in game balance are.
Epic is our highest content. Balance discussions must deal with it.

Even if they sometimes come off as wanting an "Easy Button" or other dismissive terms.

Angelus_dead
02-28-2010, 08:07 PM
...and you feel AC builds deserve to be less powerful than DPS builds because ______.
Either it's an imbalance that needs to be fixed or it's working as designed and it's that way for a very good reason that you can share with us.
There's a rule of thumb for game design that when in doubt, give the edge to the offensive option. That's because if mistakes happen and a feature is stronger than intended, an overpowered offense leads to fast action, while an overpowered defense leads to boring stalemate.

But that's just an edge, not a justification for real imbalances of the "why am I bothering?" level.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 08:08 PM
...and you feel AC builds deserve to be less powerful than DPS builds because ______.

Either it's an imbalance that needs to be fixed or it's working as designed and it's that way for a very good reason that you can share with us.

I was not referring to weak=ac strong=dps.

My argument was really about making it harder for dps builds to shine then easier for ac builds.

Personally I think if someone get their ac high enough in epic to rarely get hit, they should have a very hard time killing anything.

Borror0
02-28-2010, 08:49 PM
My argument was really about making it harder for dps builds to shine then easier for ac builds.
I don't see how making Epic much harder for those with weaker characters or equipment would be an improvement.

I can see why someone might want to change it to consume more resources or to require more skillful play; however, I can't see why someone would want to make Epic more exclusive through gating. It's just making Epic inaccessible to those who did not grind enough or made a few mistakes at character creation or had their character weakened by an update. If anything, Epic is a little too exclusive at the moment by unjustifiably requiring characters to be level 20 to get in.

Personally I think if someone get their ac high enough in epic to rarely get hit, they should have a very hard time killing anything.
...and I think this would be fun because _____.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 09:03 PM
I don't see how making Epic much harder for those with weaker characters or equipment would be an improvement.

I can see why someone might want to change it to consume more resources or to require more skillful play; however, I can't see why someone would want to make Epic more exclusive through gating. It's just making Epic inaccessible to those who did not grind enough or made a few mistakes at character creation or had their character weakened by an update. If anything, Epic is a little too exclusive at the moment by unjustifiably requiring characters to be level 20 to get in.

...and I think this would be fun because _____.


Ok I respect that. But we definitely disagree on the point of "Epic" setting.

IMO if you are not up to snuff run C-E. Epic should be for the very best players.

Borror0
02-28-2010, 10:13 PM
Epic should be for the very best players.
I agree but that is not what you're saying. You're saying that Epic is for the players with the best gear and best builds. That's very different.

KKDragonLord
02-28-2010, 10:17 PM
I agree but that is not what you're saying. You're saying that Epic is for the players with the best gear and best builds. That's very different.

Is it?

Can the best fighter pilot on a Fokker plane take down a F22 Raptor?

Can the best player kill Vellah with korthos gear?

Can the best equipped best player be effective on a truly Gimped character?

Isn't Best supposed to mean most optimal of the Bestest of best?

Orratti
02-28-2010, 10:32 PM
After reading these types of threads it is often easy to forget what MMO im playing. Mostly, because threads like these exist in pretty much every MMO forum. Granted, I have not been playing DDO for long (but I am quite knowledgeable when it comes to D&D rules) and I also have quite an illustrious resume when it comes to the subject of MMO's, as I have played everything from UO, EQ1 and 2, SWG, Shadowbane, DAoC, Age of Conan, EvE, Asheron's Call, Potbs, WoW, Darkfall, etc. You name it and I have probably played it at one point in time. You could call me a game dork and you would probably be doing me too much justice, but anyhoo.

With that said, I have yet to come across any MMO that has ever successfully achieved end game balance. No matter what the game, there will always be a set of classes, professions, builds, playstyles etc that end up with the short end of the stick. Im not even sure that it would be possible to balance every playstyle for end game content without marginalizing the end game in some manner. Which is precisely why we see the trend I like to call the "Revolving door". Basically, player A will be all of that and a bag of chips for a few months until all of the sudden, God (devs) comes down and buffs (or nerfs) are handed out to player B, in which case everyone and their mom starts rolling the same class as player B. Then the cycle continues on from there. As buffs and nerfs are handed out, the endless cycle of rerolls continues, ad infinitum. SWG and WoW are notorious for this and most all other games simply follow suit rather than try and work a real solution to the issue. Maybe there is no other solution, who knows? But one thing is for sure, this problem is hardly new.

Let me break this down for everyone so we can put this thread to bed. If you're an AC build, you currently have two options as the game currently stands. You can reroll (put your AC toon on the shelf for awhile), or you can suck it up and wait for the winds of change to give you your I-win button back (which they will, eventually). Pick one of those two and then move on. Rather than spend precious time complaining about it on the forums, try making a grilled cheese sandwich and doing some work in the garden. Bye.

Sorry but the squeaky wheel gets the grease. You might have to squeal like a 747 being dragged behind a locomotive down a 3000 mile track but a good irritant in an oyster eventually becomes a pearl. Who knows how much squeaking might be required but keep it up, after all who wants to be a quitter.

KKDragonLord
02-28-2010, 10:36 PM
After reading these types of threads it is often easy to forget what MMO im playing. Mostly, because threads like these exist in pretty much every MMO forum... Had missed your post, thanks for stating the Inconvenient Truth so many around here are eager to forget. +1 Rep :)

SableShadow
02-28-2010, 10:42 PM
Bestest of best?

I really think people who like this quote re: epics should watch MiB again, and pay attention to the context around it... :)

Borror0
02-28-2010, 10:49 PM
Isn't Best supposed to mean most optimal of the Bestest of best?
He said "best players" which means "best players." If he meant "characters with the best gear and best builds," he would have said so. The fact is that the two are different, and that was my point. If Epic is meant for the most skilled players, the challenged will be designed to emphasis skill (jumping, dodging, etc.) and gear will take a backseat; if Epic is meant for well equipped and well built characters, the numerical values on monsters will be through the roof and player skill will take a backseat.

Delacroix21
02-28-2010, 10:56 PM
Ok I respect that. But we definitely disagree on the point of "Epic" setting.

IMO if you are not up to snuff run C-E. Epic should be for the very best players.


Why does it keep coming back to the statement "AC builds are poor players?" With the amount of farming/planning needed to gear a build like this I would think the opposite is true.

Delacroix21
02-28-2010, 10:58 PM
I agree but that is not what you're saying. You're saying that Epic is for the players with the best gear and best builds. That's very different.

What I MEANT to say, but lacked the linguistic skill for.

RATRACE931
02-28-2010, 11:34 PM
For RatRace=

1. This is not a dps Bash in any way, shape, or form. It only seems this way when dps builds with no ac show up and tell an ac character that the system is fine, or that they should farm more gear, or that gearing up dps (namely fighters and barbs) is anywhere near the same as gearing an AC focused toon.


2. So if you tell me to farm more gear, why dont you point out what I should farm ok?


3. It is not a bash to say fighters and barbs require only a Gsteel weapon to be viable in epic, it is the truth. Additional gear helps these 2 class dps toons, but they can contribute without it. To build an AC toon requires gear from a multitude of raids, random drops, and stat allocation that is a feat in and of itself. You did not accomplish anything special by putting every level up point into strength after maxing strength and con at creation.


4. Do you honestly want to compare managing 2 stats (str, con) with managing 4? (strength, dex, con, wis). Can an AC build turn OFF combat expertise to hit epic mobs while a strength build turns off PA? Not without taking a big hit to ac they cant (could be the difference between being missed 30% to 5%). Gearing my monk to max his ac (while still maintaining viable= dps, hps, and to hit) has been my hardest experience in ddo. It required a massive amount of farming to accomplish and I am very proud of what he has become.



5. This should not be the case...




1. How can you say this is not a DPS bash when the base of all of your points is exactly that, how much DPS does _____ do when they ______ ? This is brand new EPIC content, I'm not sure why you think you should walk into a quest where the Trash mobs have a higher/equal CR than our newest raidboss on Elite, or why they should not be on par with them. This content is brand spanking new theres no reason we should be able to do anything to them period but Woe Betide them... WE CAN! Is it to unreasonable to debuff the mobs to-hit yourself? You can double curse something resonable Cursespewing and Imp Cursespewing (max possible curse is 5 but thats hardly a realistic option for any trash mob) a thats LOT of to-hit gone there. You can easily lower a creature AC by what 12-17 points with Destruction Imp Destruction, Unbalancing Strike and an ooze item? Then you don't have to turn off CE. I'll use my tempest Spine Elite reference again when we were level 10 we had to be EXTRORDINARILY creative to kill the blackguards in the beginning, and its not nearly that bad in Epic content, infact Epic is laid back in comparisson.

2. I'm not sure what gear you have, or even what build we are discussing so thats an ureasonable request but I'll try. Look directly above you talk about High to hits, try getting a couple good Cursespewing and Imp Cursespewin weapnons along with some gear to lower their AC so you can stay in CE.

3. Again your prejudice to lowely DPS builds shrine through, it IS infact, a bash to say that is all they need to contribute. If a barb/fighter tried to join my Epic with just a greensteel greataxe and +6 stat item gear I'd decline his gimp ass in a hertbeat. Yes AC does infact require more items to be applicable but not by much, (Insight 4, Chatt ring, ToD ring set probably, maybe armor 8 bracers, and/or unadultered DT armor/Icies) But that being said aside from ToD sets those are all old AC is the only ever evolving builds in the game, we just added a new Facet, Epic Lets see the Red Dragon Heavy plate? hows that for AC? The new shield, the new ring ect. It's unreasonable to expect your AC to be untoucheable in new content when so many anvenues have been opened.

4. I consider any build consisting of only 2 stats a waste of time, situational piece of junk. Yes that even means most of the 18 str 20 con barbs out there, perhaps especially. Any build created tha doesn't "need" multitudes of grinded out gear is in my mind a waste of time. Perhaps your pride in your build (Congrats btw seriously always glad to hear someone happy with a completed/nearly completed build) is blinding you to the fact that your are now ever so slightly outdated. Does it shows more with AC bulds? Yes it does and i consider that a point of pride to know thay hey my AC build needs to get better and can now become better. So yes what you read is correct i concede ever so slightly that yes AC builds require more involvement, but by no means the extreme i feel you took it too.

5. I think is NOT the case and SHOULD be the case, let me explain you comparison of Shade to a run of the mill pos barb is very far from truth in my opinion. I've had a few marginally equiped pug "DPSers" join our Epic runs and nearly everytime ended up simply NOT wasting res scrolls on them as even with a greensteel item there were less than useless but a drain on the party. As for the AC pespective as i have already said i don't think even the most amazing AC build should be able to prance around with nothing but self buffs like some magical unhittable fairy, I think a marginal difference is absolutely perfect at this time. When our AC builds gain more and more Epic Gear if then at that time or AC is still redundant then ill stand behind you whole heartedly for a change to their To-Hits.


I agree with Quik that Epic content isn't as hard as i expected or even wanted. If this Epic Von was new quest chain we would already be upgrading to the Hard and Elite versions.

RATRACE931
02-28-2010, 11:38 PM
I would really love to see a 100+ AC build who can also HIT things.

Perhaps im mistaken but every 100+ AC build ive seen (Outside of PnP) has had a rediculously high amount of dex, my monk for reasons im embarressed about has an unbuffed but stanced dex of 40 and i hit 90% of the time in epic with +5 handwraps.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 11:45 PM
He said "best players" which means "best players." If he meant "characters with the best gear and best builds," he would have said so. The fact is that the two are different, and that was my point. If Epic is meant for the most skilled players, the challenged will be designed to emphasis skill (jumping, dodging, etc.) and gear will take a backseat; if Epic is meant for well equipped and well built characters, the numerical values on monsters will be through the roof and player skill will take a backseat.

Not at all Borr. Good players typically gear their alts out to handle the content they are running, or the feel like pikers. While I dont expect every great player to have all the best gear on every alt, I do expect them to be looking for it and if playing content that requires better gear, find an acceptable substitute.

Quikster
02-28-2010, 11:47 PM
Why does it keep coming back to the statement "AC builds are poor players?" With the amount of farming/planning needed to gear a build like this I would think the opposite is true.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. Show me anywhere on these forums I have said ac builds are poor players.

I really have a difficult time taking your points seriously when you are posting nonsense like this.

Delacroix21
03-01-2010, 12:18 AM
Please stop putting words in my mouth. Show me anywhere on these forums I have said ac builds are poor players.

I really have a difficult time taking your points seriously when you are posting nonsense like this.

I cant argue with a broken record, I will let Borro continue with you.

Borror0
03-01-2010, 12:30 AM
Not at all Borr. Good players typically gear their alts out to handle the content they are running, or the feel like pikers. While I dont expect every great player to have all the best gear on every alt, I do expect them to be looking for it and if playing content that requires better gear, find an acceptable substitute.
Like I said, the fact is that the two are different. Obviously, there is a lot of overlaps but that does not change that they are different: a well geared and built character can be played by a bad player while a character with under average gear and build can be played by an outstanding player. Depending on how you design the content, you'll lean toward one or the other.

If the emphasis is put on numerical superiority, you design for better geared and built characters which includes unskilled players; if you design so that player skills matter far more than gear or build would, then you design for the most skilled players.

Currently, you are advocating a type of Epic content that is NOT built for the best players.

Quikster
03-01-2010, 01:18 AM
Like I said, the fact is that the two are different. Obviously, there is a lot of overlaps but that does not change that they are different: a well geared and built character can be played by a bad player while a character with under average gear and build can be played by an outstanding player. Depending on how you design the content, you'll lean toward one or the other.

If the emphasis is put on numerical superiority, you design for better geared and built characters which includes unskilled players; if you design so that player skills matter far more than gear or build would, then you design for the most skilled players.

Currently, you are advocating a type of Epic content that is NOT built for the best players.

I dont see it like that. How is wanting the "numbers" to be beyond what most would consider reasonable, built for better geared players. Better geared players may have an easier time but it certainly isnt "built" for them.

For example:

Low 70's AC build (notice, not gimp build)

runs around n/h/e vale and rarely gets touched. Runs around Amrath n/h and rarely gets touched. On Elite amrath gets but handed to him. Inspired quarter more or less the same, not much damage n/h lots more damage elite.

Now take this build, which is moderately geared/built for ac and stick him in epic content. He gets hit all the time. As a matter of fact he seldom avoids hits (but he does avoid a few). In order for him to not get hit all the time he needs to shield block, or have a bard and ranger around (in other words he needs 5-10 more ac to not get hit a lot, but still taking hits)

You say what good is this in epic. I say if hes good, he will find a way to contribute in epic. That may mean he forgets about ac, and tries to flank mobs if he cant handle agro. Maybe he pulls out some scrolls and helps heal. Maybe he turtles up and intimidates, maybe he body pulls mobs into ambushes. Maybe he gets up on a shield wall and lets the caster grab agro and then unlaods.

The point is that good players find a way to compensate if they find themselves undergeared for the task.


Now take the other side of the arguement. My ac build has been grinding ac gear for over a year. I have found every rare piece of gear for my ac build to achieve high ac (which by the way, is not the case, the arguement loses a lot of steam once the op told us what his gear was, he admits he can get 9 higher himself without me tearing his build apart, 9 ac on a d20 are you kidding? Oh and he doenst want any buffs in group.) and I am still getting hit on epic content. So the argument is epic mobs need to have their to hit lowered, because a moderate ac build still gets hit a lot and moderate dps'rs can go into epic content and dont suffer?


No I dont buy it. My str rogue has issues hitting in epic when not sneak attacking. Ok well i manage agro a little better so i dont pull it, I use divine power scrolls so that my to hit increases, I range things with imp destruction before they get to the group, or use improved destruction weapons on them. Oh guess what, now my rogue can hit things a lot more, lets turn on PA, oh wow that mob is going down fast now, maybe some subtle backstabbing, or throw on tharnes bracers, or treason so i dont pull agro.

What i dont do is leave epic to spend all my time getting a few more to hit here or there. I get it as I go. Because I improvise, I adapt. I dont give up thinking everything is broken.

IMO borr good players will usually end up with the best gear, and when attempting to do things they are undergeared for, they will find ways to be useful. Good player typically find ways to have good builds, even if they arent fotm builds. Good players understand agro mechanics in the game, and how things work together to be synergistic and not be a bull in the china shop. Bad players will usually not be useful no matter the gear they have, the builds they use, or the groups they run in. Most of us fall in the middle of that somewhere.

sephiroth1084
03-01-2010, 02:26 AM
But there is no compensation through skillful play for AC that isn't sufficient. You either have it or you don't.

Just for my own knowledge and to facilitate a more accurate conversation, what kind of AC is needed in order to notice a difference in how often one is getting hit? are we talking low-80s? Mid-80s? 90s?

Quikster
03-01-2010, 02:39 AM
But there is no compensation through skillful play for AC that isn't sufficient. You either have it or you don't.

Just for my own knowledge and to facilitate a more accurate conversation, what kind of AC is needed in order to notice a difference in how often one is getting hit? are we talking low-80s? Mid-80s? 90s?

I disagree. Ive played this game at all differnet kinds of ac/hp combos, and not having a huge ac does not = gimped.

My experience is mid 80's

Edit::I disagree that there is not compensation for a build that isnt "main tanking" If you are a "main tank" type and your job is to hold agro and absorb damage, then yes if you dont have it, your pretty much worthless. But I havent been talking about that type of build. I thought we were discussing a twf dps'r

Lleren
03-01-2010, 02:39 AM
What i dont do is leave epic to spend all my time getting a few more to hit here or there. I get it as I go. Because I improvise, I adapt. I dont give up thinking everything is broken.


You appear to be assuming that every complaint about balance is a "QQ I give up thread". Is this how you feel? I make no claims as to the origins of this thread, but it really does appear to be in balance discussion mode currently.

This quoted section though, it really just sounds like an "I rule, you drool" post.

Your description of the "Low 70's AC build (notice, not gimp build)" contributions to the epic group I did find interesting. Mainly in that the character described has to pike along ( ie. not doing the jobs his build is built to do in most cases )

The group would be bettter off bringing someone along who was built to fill the role the he is pretending to fill. He and his group would of been better off with him leveling and gearing as a DPS build until he has the gear nessesary for his character to tank in epic, and then reincarnating over.


I disagree. Ive played this game at all differnet kinds of ac/hp combos, and not having a huge ac does not = gimped. If you are built to have a huge AC, and you enter a dungeon that your AC does not matter in, then you are just as much a gimp as the DPSer who can't break through the mobs DR.

Quikster
03-01-2010, 03:06 AM
You appear to be assuming that every complaint about balance is a "QQ I give up thread". Is this how you feel? I make no claims as to the origins of this thread, but it really does appear to be in balance discussion mode currently.

This quoted section though, it really just sounds like an "I rule, you drool" post.

Your description of the "Low 70's AC build (notice, not gimp build)" contributions to the epic group I did find interesting. Mainly in that the character described has to pike along ( ie. not doing the jobs his build is built to do in most cases )

The group would be bettter off bringing someone along who was built to fill the role the he is pretending to fill. He and his group would of been better off with him leveling and gearing as a DPS build until he has the gear nessesary for his character to tank in epic, and then reincarnating over.

If you are built to have a huge AC, and you enter a dungeon that your AC does not matter in, then you are just as much a gimp as the DPSer who can't break through the mobs DR.

What exactly is the job of the low 70's ac build? Isnt it DPS? Because he is still more than capable of dealing damage with a 70's ac.

Why is this an, im better than you statement that i make, because i improvise and dont give up thinking the content is unbalanced. Epic mobs to hit are closer to balanced for high ac than any other trash mob in the game. You want balance, bring up epic mobs ac so they are harder to hit. Then their ac will be balanced with their to hit.

Honestly i think of myself as a competent player, but certainly not elite. There are plenty of others ive seen that are much better than me. Why do i not see a huge problem with this?

Quikster
03-01-2010, 03:07 AM
If you are built to have a huge AC, and you enter a dungeon that your AC does not matter in, then you are just as much a gimp as the DPSer who can't break through the mobs DR.

I have yet to see a post explaining where someone has huge ac and it doesnt matter. Show me that and i might see your side. So far i have seen posts with average ac getting hit often.

sephiroth1084
03-01-2010, 03:12 AM
I disagree. Ive played this game at all differnet kinds of ac/hp combos, and not having a huge ac does not = gimped.

No it doesn't, but by the same token, AC is fairly unique in that even somewhat slight fluctuations in monster attack bonuses can totally invalidate a character. Can the character whip out a 2-hander and swing away? Sure, but the reverse is not true for anyone else--that barbarian doesn't have to put down his sword to pick up a shield for an entire quest, or series of quests, or entire difficulty level, just because he has yet to acquire every single last piece of DPS-centric loot in the game.

Quikster
03-01-2010, 03:16 AM
No it doesn't, but by the same token, AC is fairly unique in that even somewhat slight fluctuations in monster attack bonuses can totally invalidate a character. Can the character whip out a 2-hander and swing away? Sure, but the reverse is not true for anyone else--that barbarian doesn't have to put down his sword to pick up a shield for an entire quest, or series of quests, or entire difficulty level, just because he has yet to acquire every single last piece of DPS-centric loot in the game.

Added to that post you quoted.

No a barb cannot pick up a shield you are correct. So if you built a tank type of build, that is supposed to be controlling agro, and you are running around with a low 70's ac, right you arent doing much to help in epic. But that has kinda been my point all along. You shouldnt be in epic content in this case. Now if you can contribute in some other way cool. Pull out that two hander and dps. I dont understand where your issue is.


Edit::To add, if monster ac's were boosted, dps'rs would have the same issue you just described. They would have difficulty hitting thus dpsing. Honestly I think this would make epic content more epic. We should have to debuff the heck out of epic bosses to hit them reliably.

Quikster
03-01-2010, 03:35 AM
As a side note, maybe im confused about what epic content should be. If thats the case I am definitely wrong here. I believed epic was supposed to be the hardest content in the game bar none. With mobs doing tons of damage, being very difficult to kill. Not for the weak where only the strong survive.

Some of the arguments in this thread make me think otherwise. So I ask you, what are you expecting out of epic content?


(note, as far as changing the ac mechanic I dont necessarily disagree, I dont like many suggestions ive seen, though I cant offer one im happy with either. So leaving aside the fact that ac mechanic needs a work over, and with ac working as it is, what are you all looking for in epic?)

ThatSwordGuy
03-01-2010, 03:36 AM
The d20 tries to approximate "a reality" of sorts. Whenever a d20 incarnation has too much AB and not enough AC it parallels the invention of guns, which led to the abandonment of most full body armors. (Bullet proof armor was invented much later.) The point being, why wear armor if it gets cut like butter? Answer: You shouldn't.

On the other hand, in other d20 games I have seen AC builds vastly overpower the most sophisticated DPS builds (to the point that every fight was waiting for someone to roll a 20), and this, too, parallels history. Imagine the first person to discover steel who made a suit of full plate. He could stand in front of an entire army of archers with cheaply mass-produced arrows and laugh like a God as nothing left a dent.

What d20 fails to realize is a more subtle physics that governs combat. A slicing weapon like a sword is used to make agile pokes and shallow cuts that sever arteries. Someone wearing full body armor is nearly impervious to slicing weapons, while a blunt rock would transfer force through the material and potentially break bones. An axe, being a pendulum, would apply enough force to hew limbs, rather than draw blood. Really, a shield is an entirely different animal than body armor, as it can be used to deflect blows as well as conceal your own, so it seems a bit silly to simplify shields down to a number that gets tossed on the pile. It would make more sense if they granted something similar to concealment the way tower shields are supposed to vs. ranged attacks.

You can't take a d20 and resolve every combat tactic by adjusting the numbers (good AC, bad AC, bah!), but it should set off warning lights that no tactic is available to counter absurd Attack Bonuses.

Wait, hold on! This tactic may seem strange, but... have you ever considered using intimidate and then running scared?


No it doesn't, but by the same token, AC is fairly unique in that even somewhat slight fluctuations in monster attack bonuses can totally invalidate a character. Can the character whip out a 2-hander and swing away? Sure, but the reverse is not true for anyone else--that barbarian doesn't have to put down his sword to pick up a shield for an entire quest, or series of quests, or entire difficulty level, just because he has yet to acquire every single last piece of DPS-centric loot in the game.I have been requested several times on Let Sleeping Dust Lie to put my two-hander away, for fear of killing spiders. It's rare, but it happens.

Frankly, I'm less worried about specialized blockers and more worried about the lack of non-combat quest elements that require character investment. Where are the quests in which I can HAGGLE my way out of a dungeon? Every combat-related bennefit (some of which feel forced) seems more like an excuse to be even harder on other methods of play. Shield DR feels like an excuse for medium sized skeletons to deal 30 damage with their fists. Likewise, massive AC builds feels like an excuse to make anyone with less than 80 AC suffer.

If you think getting hit 95% of the time is bad, try playing certain other games where critical hits are not prevented. ;P

sephiroth1084
03-01-2010, 04:18 AM
Edit::I disagree that there is not compensation for a build that isnt "main tanking" If you are a "main tank" type and your job is to hold agro and absorb damage, then yes if you dont have it, your pretty much worthless. But I havent been talking about that type of build. I thought we were discussing a twf dps'r


Added to that post you quoted.

No a barb cannot pick up a shield you are correct. So if you built a tank type of build, that is supposed to be controlling agro, and you are running around with a low 70's ac, right you arent doing much to help in epic. But that has kinda been my point all along. You shouldnt be in epic content in this case. Now if you can contribute in some other way cool. Pull out that two hander and dps. I dont understand where your issue is.


Edit::To add, if monster ac's were boosted, dps'rs would have the same issue you just described. They would have difficulty hitting thus dpsing. Honestly I think this would make epic content more epic. We should have to debuff the heck out of epic bosses to hit them reliably.

Pretty sure we're talking about S&B AC and participation since non-S&B AC characters tend to have pretty good DPS anyway. And that's the point: character built to tank can't. Character who are built to DPS can. Adjusting the attack bonus of epic monsters to make those characters capable of performing the task for which they have worked for 20 levels. 80s AC in a 6 man quest, as Borr pointed out, is very hard to come by for such characters since it is unlikely to have an AC tank, cleric/FvS, Bard and Ranger (and paladin if we're talking about a fighter tank) in order to attain that AC.

How is that at all reasonable? Now we're not even talking about gear, skill or stats, but all of that PLUS a perfect party.

10 base
+15 DT FP [Edit because of brain fart]
+1 alchemical
+9 Levik's
+1 alchemical
+3 Dex (paladin)/+6 Dex (fighter)
+5 Protection
+3 Bark pot
+4 stance
+5 CE
+1 Dodge
+3 Chattering
+2 Chaosgardes
+2 set bonus
+4 Insight [Edit--forgot this; totals altered to reflect this addition]
+6 aura (paladin)
+3 Stalwart (fighter)
_____________
74 paladin/74 fighter

That's self-administered buffs.

+4 Bard song
+1 Haste
+2 Recitation
+6 aura (fighter) --[note that this implies that you have not one, but two AC tanks in an epic quest]
+2 Ranger's bark
________
83 paladin/89 fighter

Am I missing something? Are these characters somehow able to achieve that mid-80s (presumably much less than 95% effective) AC without an absolutely perfect party? How is that reasonable for an entire difficulty?

Krag
03-01-2010, 05:31 AM
Perhaps im mistaken but every 100+ AC build ive seen (Outside of PnP) has had a rediculously high amount of dex, my monk for reasons im embarressed about has an unbuffed but stanced dex of 40 and i hit 90% of the time in epic with +5 handwraps.

Screenshot or it...
I would really like to see both your AC and to-hit breakdown.

RATRACE931
03-01-2010, 05:37 AM
Pretty sure we're talking about S&B AC and participation since non-S&B AC characters tend to have pretty good DPS anyway. And that's the point: character built to tank can't. Character who are built to DPS can. Adjusting the attack bonus of epic monsters to make those characters capable of performing the task for which they have worked for 20 levels. 80s AC in a 6 man quest, as Borr pointed out, is very hard to come by for such characters since it is unlikely to have an AC tank, cleric/FvS, Bard and Ranger (and paladin if we're talking about a fighter tank) in order to attain that AC.

How is that at all reasonable? Now we're not even talking about gear, skill or stats, but all of that PLUS a perfect party.

10 base
+18 DT FP
+1 alchemical
+9 Levik's
+1 alchemical
+3 Dex (paladin)/+6 Dex (fighter)
+5 Protection
+3 Bark pot
+4 stance
+5 CE
+1 Dodge
+3 Chattering
+2 Chaosgardes
+2 set bonus
+6 aura (paladin)
+3 Stalwart (fighter)
_____________
73 paladin/73 fighter

That's self-administered buffs.

+4 Bard song
+1 Haste
+2 Recitation
+6 aura (fighter) --[note that this implies that you have not one, but two AC tanks in an epic quest]
+2 Ranger's bark
________
82 paladin/88 fighter

Am I missing something? Are these characters somehow able to achieve that mid-80s (presumably much less than 95% effective) AC without an absolutely perfect party? How is that reasonable for an entire difficulty?

O.K. first order of business in your breakdown you listed DT 18 where its 15 if im not mistaken, and you seem to have forgotton Insight +4. Also I would say Nat armor 4 should be a self buff (Madstone/Yugg Pot easily attainable) aswell as haste so 76 for fighter and imho opinion any Palidan should carry Recitation scrolls as they now last a full minute 30 so pali is 78.

Party buffs of course would be 83/89.

Now I'm not sure why ya'll are outraged at the prospect of a "Perfect Party", Any bard deviation with at least 16 lvls, any ranger splice with 12 lvls and a fighter/Pali could easily have 83 AC, drop the ranger and its only 82 ohno! Thats just 1 person aside from your AC tank to help him out. Or say the fighter has no Bard but a palidan bam he just gained 2 AC 85 and still only 2 people dedicated to the AC buffage. This is Epic content not a pug shroud it is O.K. to be a tinsy winsy bit picky about who/what you invite.

I Feel that party buffed AC is entirely reasonable for epic content with bard songs laster between 6-8 minutes and recitation being so easily attained now.

RATRACE931
03-01-2010, 05:58 AM
Screenshot or it...
I would really like to see both your AC and to-hit breakdown.

If you go to the Highest *possible* AC Thread you will see a few examples of what i meant by "Rediculously high Dex" and that with weapon finesse and a few items=very high to hit. As for my monk she has no AC in relation, but with my broken 40 Dex my to hit is 41 with haste-5 from PA is 36 add my +1 to-hit goggles from Korthos Island, +2 from spectral gloves and +2 from shintao set and im back to +41 with PA, that hits marginally well. then i use my destruction handwraps before equiping my +5 weighted 5% and i hit about 90% of the time can turn off PA for a +46 to hit. Also I have quite a few greater banes most of them are +3 or better so i usually have a +7 or better enhancement.

EDIT: Forgot to mentioned thats with GH.

Borror0
03-01-2010, 06:09 AM
I dont see it like that. How is wanting the "numbers" to be beyond what most would consider reasonable, built for better geared players. Better geared players may have an easier time but it certainly isnt "built" for them.

Edit::I disagree that there is not compensation for a build that isnt "main tanking" If you are a "main tank" type and your job is to hold agro and absorb damage, then yes if you dont have it, your pretty much worthless. But I havent been talking about that type of build. I thought we were discussing a twf dps'r
I'm not quite sure of where you got the idea that we were talking about TWF DPS builds but we're not. We'"re talking about AC builds, for several pages now. Like you said, there is no way to make up for low AC via player skills because, if your AC is too low, you have no avoidance and therefore cannot tank. That's the problem I've been presenting you with for several pages now.

Does your position change in light of this?

[...] (which by the way, is not the case, the arguement loses a lot of steam once the op told us what his gear was, he admits he can get 9 higher himself without me tearing his build apart, 9 ac on a d20 are you kidding? Oh and he doenst want any buffs in group.)
I have not read the post where he mentioned having the ability to increase his Armor Class by nine more points (and I don't feel like rereading the whole thread for that information), but I'll assume that he's missing on three pieces of gear for the sake of the argument which is, to me, a reasonable: one could be missing on Chattering ring, Heighten Awareness IV and something that gives +2 AC for a total of 9.

Three pieces of gear. Two which will most likely take several weeks before acquiring. That's all it takes to be half a d20 behind which, as you mentioned, is a lot. Then, you add the disadvantage because of non-ideal party makeup and you end up up to 19 points behind (9 gear+4 Inspire Heroic+6 Aura of Good=19) which is just off the dice. That's a huge problem: all it takes is having slightly suboptimal gear and party, and then you're screwed.

When you look at it from this angle, his argument holds a lot more of weight.

IMO borr good players will usually end up with the best gear, and when attempting to do things they are undergeared for, they will find ways to be useful.
While it overlaps, you just can't merge the two distinct category of players like that. That would be fallacious. If you want Epic to reward skillful play, you'll built it by adding challenges that require skills to be overcome; if you want to reward players for grinding, planning their build well (or copying one from the forum), and using Lesser Reincarnation, then you'll ask for mobs with high AC, to-hit, saves and HP.

You simply cannot claim you when Epic to be for the most skilled players and then just turn around and instead Epic to be made easier with gear, rather than player skills.

sephiroth1084
03-01-2010, 06:22 AM
Now I'm not sure why ya'll are outraged at the prospect of a "Perfect Party", Any bard deviation with at least 16 lvls, any ranger splice with 12 lvls and a fighter/Pali could easily have 83 AC, drop the ranger and its only 82 ohno! Thats just 1 person aside from your AC tank to help him out. Or say the fighter has no Bard but a palidan bam he just gained 2 AC 85 and still only 2 people dedicated to the AC buffage. This is Epic content not a pug shroud it is O.K. to be a tinsy winsy bit picky about who/what you invite.

I Feel that party buffed AC is entirely reasonable for epic content with bard songs laster between 6-8 minutes and recitation being so easily attained now.
Updated my post to reflect leaving out Insight.

As for the above perfect party deal...do the DPS characters need an ideal party to perform? The casters? The healers?

Aaxeyu
03-01-2010, 06:40 AM
I agree with the OP and the other intelligent people in this thread, the tohit is too high. It needs to be lowered.
I would see it lowered to the 60-70 range.

Before you scream EZ MODE, remember that a character would have to make huge DPS sacrifices to get 90 AC.
And even if you had 90 AC you would still take damage. That's were grazing hits comes in.

RATRACE931
03-01-2010, 06:41 AM
Updated my post to reflect leaving out Insight.

As for the above perfect party deal...do the DPS characters need an ideal party to perform? The casters? The healers?

Sweet,

Absolutly, DPSER's need some1 to keep them alive or retain aggro so they take no damage, Casters needs (Mostly) Tanks to help kill the large groups of mobs so they arn't chuggng potions, and healers well the clerics for the same reason as Caster and FvS do aswell but the an obvious and lesser extent. Lets face it a good set up of any geared up classes can do epics. I just did 3 epiv quests in the last hour and a half with no healer, 1 caster 2 dpsers and 1 AC pali thingy, went smooth as could be. Granted it was Von 2(x2) and a Von 1

Borror0
03-01-2010, 06:41 AM
As for the above perfect party deal...do the DPS characters need an ideal party to perform? The casters? The healers?
Alternatively, how does that reflect on party forming mechanics and the power level of AC builds?

Once upon a time, no one would dare trying a quest without a rogue. Traps were just too deadly and resource management was crucial. Eventually, Turbine moved away from that design because players complained about "having to wait for a rogue" and trapmonkeys fell into uselessness. In other words, when trapmonkeys were designed to be necessary, people brought them along but complained about the tight party mechanism; when trapmonkeys became optional, no one bothered with them because they were too weak to bother bringing along.

People arguing that it's reasonable to assume all party buffs when balancing monsters are asking for either of those situation to occur: either they want them radically increase monster damage so that having a main tank with high AC, a bard and a paladin with most bulwark of Good tiers is mandatory or they want those characters to be as useful as a trapmonkey. It's either of, and there is no third option.

While it was a good thing for trapmonkeys to become less useful, I can't say the same thing about AC builds.

RATRACE931
03-01-2010, 06:54 AM
I agree with the OP and the other intelligent people in this thread, the tohit is too high. It needs to be lowered.
I would see it lowered to the 60-70 range.

Before you scream EZ MODE, remember that a character would have to make huge DPS sacrifices to get 90 AC.
And even if you had 90 AC you would still take damage. That's were grazing hits comes in.

While I resent having my intelligence called into question I feel it is balanced out by your insightful input and wit. I couldn't disagree more but lets look at how WE and not the DEVS could lower the mobs to hit to the low 70's range shall we? Cursespewing is -4 To-Hit, Imp Cursespewing is -8 as far as i know they still stack so -4+-8=-12 to-hit. As far as I know All Curses still stack so its not just -12 to hit add the Spell Curse (easily taken by your local Wiz/Cleric) and its -16, demon queen bracers would be -20, heck lets go for broke cloak of Curses a whopping -24 to-hit, or in other terms you just gained 24 ac!

O.K. Obviously 5 curses is hardly realistic but just the 2 weapons (Found in your local pawn shop) can take your 73 AC straight to 85 AC in a mater of 2 swings. I can't see how that would be unreasonable.

Vhlad
03-01-2010, 06:56 AM
my monk caps at 84 sustainable and meaningful AC (i.e. no 20 second buffs or tumbling around or other such nonsense). But 84 with his build requires: combat expertise, bard song, ranger bark, recitation from a cleric/fvs, UMD'd shield wand.

When I was playing around in epic desert, I noticed no difference in getting hit between my 84AC monk and my 20AC barbarian.

I have 9 level 20 characters. My monk is my only character with AC. If epic content is going to be like this, why bother with AC? I'm tempted to TR my only AC character, to dump AC entirely, and focus on healing amp + hp.

Also, what's the grazing hit rate on epic? I suspect that even if they lowered monster to-hit on epic, the grazing hit rate on epic is so high and the mob base damage is so high that the most effective way through the content will STILL be to have a 0 AC caster hold aggro, perching or running and jumping around with BB/firewall.

RATRACE931
03-01-2010, 06:58 AM
Alternatively, how does that reflect on party forming mechanics and the power level of AC builds?

Once upon a time, no one would dare trying a quest without a rogue. Traps were just too deadly and resource management was crucial. Eventually, Turbine moved away from that design because players complained about "having to wait for a rogue" and trapmonkeys fell into uselessness. In other words, when trapmonkeys were designed to be necessary, people brought them along but complained about the tight party mechanism; when trapmonkeys became optional, no one bothered with them because they were too weak to bother bringing along.

People arguing that it's reasonable to assume all party buffs when balancing monsters are asking for either of those situation to occur: either they want them radically increase monster damage so that having a main tank with high AC, a bard and a paladin with most bulwark of Good tiers is mandatory or they want those characters to be as useful as a trapmonkey. It's either of, and there is no third option.

While it was a good thing for trapmonkeys to become less useful, I can't say the same thing about AC builds.

Im sorry Borro but there is a third option, debuff the mobs, Exhaustion lowers to hit, fatigue does aswell. Hate to be a broken record but Curespewing is a GREAT option. We vets used to do this all the time, remember the AC on the Fire Giant Captains? Redonculous! Why is it so taboo to think about going back to that especially when they added such wonderful new toys? Imp Cursespewing Imp Shattermantle ect.

sephiroth1084
03-01-2010, 07:06 AM
Sweet,

Absolutly, DPSER's need some1 to keep them alive or retain aggro so they take no damage, Casters needs (Mostly) Tanks to help kill the large groups of mobs so they arn't chuggng potions, and healers well the clerics for the same reason as Caster and FvS do aswell but the an obvious and lesser extent. Lets face it a good set up of any geared up classes can do epics. I just did 3 epiv quests in the last hour and a half with no healer, 1 caster 2 dpsers and 1 AC pali thingy, went smooth as could be. Granted it was Von 2(x2) and a Von 1
Sure. But a barbarian doesn't really care whether they have a wiz or sorc, cleric or FvS, or whether they have 3 other barbarians with them, or a rogue, or a paladin, or...

You can make a perfectly viable epic group with a sorc, bard, FvS and 3 barbarians. That's (half) the point here.

RATRACE931
03-01-2010, 07:10 AM
Sure. But a barbarian doesn't really care whether they have a wiz or sorc, cleric or FvS, or whether they have 3 other barbarians with them, or a rogue, or a paladin, or...

You can make a perfectly viable epic group with a sorc, bard, FvS and 3 barbarians. That's (half) the point here.

Right, I don't necessarily disagree on any point, but you are implying that the 3 AC builds wouldnt be interchangeable with the 3 barbs. I disagree, I feel from personal experiance 1 sorc 1 bard 1 fvs and 3 AC builds would be just as good and possibly BETTER depending on their AC.

Borror0
03-01-2010, 07:32 AM
Im sorry Borro but there is a third option, debuff the mobs, Exhaustion lowers to hit, fatigue does aswell.
I included these as part of the AC buffs since a to-hit debuff to mobs is pretty much like an buff to our AC.

Krag
03-01-2010, 07:33 AM
If you go to the Highest *possible* AC Thread you will see a few examples of what i meant by "Rediculously high Dex" and that with weapon finesse and a few items=very high to hit. As for my monk she has no AC in relation, but with my broken 40 Dex my to hit is 41 with haste-5 from PA is 36 add my +1 to-hit goggles from Korthos Island, +2 from spectral gloves and +2 from shintao set and im back to +41 with PA, that hits marginally well. then i use my destruction handwraps before equiping my +5 weighted 5% and i hit about 90% of the time can turn off PA for a +46 to hit. Also I have quite a few greater banes most of them are +3 or better so i usually have a +7 or better enhancement.

EDIT: Forgot to mentioned thats with GH.

Your monk has no AC? Thanks, that's all I wanted to know.


While I resent having my intelligence called into question I feel it is balanced out by your insightful input and wit. I couldn't disagree more but lets look at how WE and not the DEVS could lower the mobs to hit to the low 70's range shall we? Cursespewing is -4 To-Hit, Imp Cursespewing is -8 as far as i know they still stack so -4+-8=-12 to-hit. As far as I know All Curses still stack so its not just -12 to hit add the Spell Curse (easily taken by your local Wiz/Cleric) and its -16, demon queen bracers would be -20, heck lets go for broke cloak of Curses a whopping -24 to-hit, or in other terms you just gained 24 ac!

Allow me to remind you that a chance of landing cursespewing/imp cursespewing is only 5%. Yes, exactly the same chance as stunning the mob and removing him completely from the battlefield.

Quikster
03-01-2010, 12:21 PM
Pretty sure we're talking about S&B AC and participation since non-S&B AC characters tend to have pretty good DPS anyway. And that's the point: character built to tank can't. Character who are built to DPS can. Adjusting the attack bonus of epic monsters to make those characters capable of performing the task for which they have worked for 20 levels. 80s AC in a 6 man quest, as Borr pointed out, is very hard to come by for such characters since it is unlikely to have an AC tank, cleric/FvS, Bard and Ranger (and paladin if we're talking about a fighter tank) in order to attain that AC.

How is that at all reasonable? Now we're not even talking about gear, skill or stats, but all of that PLUS a perfect party.

10 base
+18 DT FP
+1 alchemical
+9 Levik's
+1 alchemical
+3 Dex (paladin)/+6 Dex (fighter)
+5 Protection
+3 Bark pot
+4 stance
+5 CE
+1 Dodge
+3 Chattering
+2 Chaosgardes
+2 set bonus
+4 Insight [Edit--forgot this; totals altered to reflect this addition]
+6 aura (paladin)
+3 Stalwart (fighter)
_____________
77 paladin/77 fighter

That's self-administered buffs.

+4 Bard song
+1 Haste
+2 Recitation
+6 aura (fighter) --[note that this implies that you have not one, but two AC tanks in an epic quest]
+2 Ranger's bark
________
86 paladin/92 fighter

Am I missing something? Are these characters somehow able to achieve that mid-80s (presumably much less than 95% effective) AC without an absolutely perfect party? How is that reasonable for an entire difficulty?

Well I was discussing the OP complaint and that was with a twf'r. Yes if your ac isnt in the mid 80's your going to be having issues. The breakdown I posted was a few pages back counted +3 for either a bard (+4)ranger(+1) or paladin(upto +6) for party buffs. That pushed it to 82. +2 more would come from epic armor, +1 more from +6 pro, thats an 86 with having to have a cleric and a bard, 84 with a ranger, and 89 with a dos III paly. Add 5 to any for blocking.

Why is it unreasonable to expect you to have to get some epic gear to preform well in epic content. At 82 you can turtle to 87. Whats wrong with expecting you to get your ac as high as possible in order to tank. Our ToD elite tank was at 95 last night turtled. When the raid came out he was just breaking 90 with boosts. He got hit more. How come nobody is in here complaining about ToD to hit?

If epic is supposed to be the hardest content in the game I dont see these numbers as unreasonable.

To clarify, this is about tanks, most of my previous posts were in relation to twf ac.

Lleren
03-01-2010, 12:37 PM
I have yet to see a post explaining where someone has huge ac and it doesnt matter. Show me that and i might see your side. So far i have seen posts with average ac getting hit often.

Sorry Quik it was late and I did lose track of what we where discussing.

Riggs
03-01-2010, 12:41 PM
Updated my post to reflect leaving out Insight.

As for the above perfect party deal...do the DPS characters need an ideal party to perform? The casters? The healers?

Ding ding.

Quikster
03-01-2010, 12:48 PM
I agree with the OP and the other intelligent people in this thread, the tohit is too high. It needs to be lowered.
I would see it lowered to the 60-70 range.

Before you scream EZ MODE, remember that a character would have to make huge DPS sacrifices to get 90 AC.
And even if you had 90 AC you would still take damage. That's were grazing hits comes in.

This is a good idea :)

Quikster
03-01-2010, 12:56 PM
I'm not quite sure of where you got the idea that we were talking about TWF DPS builds but we're not. We'"re talking about AC builds, for several pages now. Like you said, there is no way to make up for low AC via player skills because, if your AC is too low, you have no avoidance and therefore cannot tank. That's the problem I've been presenting you with for several pages now.

Does your position change in light of this?

The OP is talking about a twf monk. Seems that this is a twf build. Why take twf line if your sole purpose to exist is high ac? If we are talking about s&b builds my position is the same. I dont think its unreasonable to ask a s&b tank to turtle once he has agro in order to raise his ac by 5 and gain blocking dr. Once he gets some epic gear he can easily rasie his ac by 3 or 4. That would basically negate the need to block. I dont see why we should be able to walk into new content and be able to be untouchable.



I have not read the post where he mentioned having the ability to increase his Armor Class by nine more points (and I don't feel like rereading the whole thread for that information), but I'll assume that he's missing on three pieces of gear for the sake of the argument which is, to me, a reasonable: one could be missing on Chattering ring, Heighten Awareness IV and something that gives +2 AC for a total of 9.

Three pieces of gear. Two which will most likely take several weeks before acquiring. That's all it takes to be half a d20 behind which, as you mentioned, is a lot. Then, you add the disadvantage because of non-ideal party makeup and you end up up to 19 points behind (9 gear+4 Inspire Heroic+6 Aura of Good=19) which is just off the dice. That's a huge problem: all it takes is having slightly suboptimal gear and party, and then you're screwed.

When you look at it from this angle, his argument holds a lot more of weight.


I disagree. If he is missing gear for an ac build, and yes ac is driven more from gear than dps, then he should suffer for it. Yes the mechanic can be changed so he doenst suffer as much, but any ac mechanic should punish players who dont have the gear to boost their ac, and reward the players that do.




While it overlaps, you just can't merge the two distinct category of players like that. That would be fallacious. If you want Epic to reward skillful play, you'll built it by adding challenges that require skills to be overcome; if you want to reward players for grinding, planning their build well (or copying one from the forum), and using Lesser Reincarnation, then you'll ask for mobs with high AC, to-hit, saves and HP.

You simply cannot claim you when Epic to be for the most skilled players and then just turn around and instead Epic to be made easier with gear, rather than player skills.

I think epic does need to be balanced for the best skilled players and the best geared. There are enough people that have been playing since day 1 and know the game inside and out and have every piece of gear possible. If Epic is not balanced toward them it would be a cakewalk.

Quikster
03-01-2010, 12:57 PM
Sorry Quik it was late and I did lose track of what we where discussing.

Nothing important :) Mostly mobs to hit in Epic and how that effects twf ac builds, but some seem to be arguing for tank ac builds. So i dunno sounds like we were talking about apples an oranges :)

Cyr
03-01-2010, 01:11 PM
I
Low 70's AC build (notice, not gimp build)


Low 70's Build as what unbuffed? I didn't get to run the von stuff with my ac build as she got re-rolled before they came out but in desert stuff her 69 no buffed AC was not doing anything. That was when she buffed up to the mid 80's. Then she would throw on uncanny dodges and acrobat showtime and hit 90's where it started to matter some. That hardly seemed reasonable to me. Pure AC build do not sit in the 90's. Heck most barely hit 90's with the longer term buffs going. So mid 80's maybe mobs just start to miss... It's hard not to conclude that the developers took the top end long term buffed AC and set most of the to hits off of that for trash mobs in EPIC desert. The red names forget it. I got to the point where I literally took off AC gear, ignored getting members to increase my AC since it did not help enough to matter, and put on gear that I usually think of as stuff for my AC dump stat warrior class toons.

Quick, I can think of a two point swing in AC for robe wearing builds. The wisdom helm and either of the two +7 dex gloves. That hardly makes a non-viable AC into a viable one in EPIC. The heavy armor folks did get a little more love in this respect though. The ring of the silver concord is a moot AC point for the first bunch as their insight bonus for top AC is tied to one weapon's top tier GS enhancement. One ring has to be chattering and second is a ToD ring (+2 to stat = +1 more from +6 prot).

EDIT: 60-70 range that I saw earlier sounds like a good range for base mob to hits in EPIC. Maybe higher for red names and purple like 65-75 for reds and 70-80 for purples.

Ulf
03-01-2010, 01:12 PM
Lowering toHit of mobs to 60-70 would be a very bad idea. An AC in the 60s can easily be obtained with little to no sacrifice in dps. As already pointed out PCs have many ways to further reduce mob toHit (curse, exhaustion, enfeebling, etc...) add in blur/displacement and you will have max dps builds with better than 80% damage mitigation. Sounds like EZmode.

sephiroth1084
03-01-2010, 04:17 PM
Well I was discussing the OP complaint and that was with a twf'r. Yes if your ac isnt in the mid 80's your going to be having issues. The breakdown I posted was a few pages back counted +3 for either a bard (+4)ranger(+1) or paladin(upto +6) for party buffs. That pushed it to 82. +2 more would come from epic armor, +1 more from +6 pro, thats an 86 with having to have a cleric and a bard, 84 with a ranger, and 89 with a dos III paly. Add 5 to any for blocking.

Why is it unreasonable to expect you to have to get some epic gear to preform well in epic content. At 82 you can turtle to 87. Whats wrong with expecting you to get your ac as high as possible in order to tank. Our ToD elite tank was at 95 last night turtled. When the raid came out he was just breaking 90 with boosts. He got hit more. How come nobody is in here complaining about ToD to hit?

If epic is supposed to be the hardest content in the game I dont see these numbers as unreasonable.

To clarify, this is about tanks, most of my previous posts were in relation to twf ac.
Vhlad seems to indicate that an 84 AC wasn't doing anything for him in epic desert content, which means an AC in the high 80s/low 90s is required (absolutely all AC gear and a perfect party). And that's what I'm talking about.

I didn't include an epic armor or shield in the AC breakdown I put up because A) I can't recall which, if any, offer better AC than DT armor and Levik's, B) you may need to run epic quests dozens upon dozens of times in order to upgrade them, and C) because they would represent only a few points of increase gained only after having tissue paper AC for months.

As for debuffs, expected Waves of Exhaustion is reasonable as it is one of the best debuffs in the game and hits multiple targets, but expecting your party members to bother with Cursespewing weapons instead of their DPS or Weighted items? That's pretty unreasonable given that it will likely take more than 20 swings in order to land the curse. There are other attack bonus debuffs that can be taken along, but very few characters carry them, and then we're once again pushing toward an ideal party (need a wizard, not a sorc).

As for turtling up, that is a viable strategy some of the time, but as I, A_D and countless others have pointed out in various threads in the past, it is not very much fun. Doing that for a few minutes in the final fight of a raid, in the occasional very tough fight or when things are going sideways is fine, but your implication, Quik, is that this should be the SOP for every mob pack in epic quests, which will be boring as ****!

So, given all of this, tell me again why epic monsters shouldn't have their attack bonuses lowered enough to make high 70s AC begin to yield some defense? I think I can speak for all of us in favor of reducing attack bonuses when I say that we're not looking for 95% immunity at 80 AC, but probably around 50% at that point. That's still not an easy AC to attain, and means that for most AC characters a perfect or near-perfect party will be required in order to gain untouchable AC. Even at the monsters having a +70 attack bonus, Waves of Exhaustion only pushes the 80 AC up to 65% effectiveness, not untouchable.

And if someone wants to run in there with 90+ AC, let them. They'll be doing little else besides not being hit. The devs don't balance content around Shade's DPS, so why should it be balanced around that monk who does 2 damage a swing but is untouchable? It's not like having that high an AC renders one free from fear of dying, as the monsters still have some fairly potent spells, grazing hits, and dispels.

Quikster
03-01-2010, 04:34 PM
Vhlad seems to indicate that an 84 AC wasn't doing anything for him in epic desert content, which means an AC in the high 80s/low 90s is required (absolutely all AC gear and a perfect party). And that's what I'm talking about.

I didn't include an epic armor or shield in the AC breakdown I put up because A) I can't recall which, if any, offer better AC than DT armor and Levik's, B) you may need to run epic quests dozens upon dozens of times in order to upgrade them, and C) because they would represent only a few points of increase gained only after having tissue paper AC for months.

As for debuffs, expected Waves of Exhaustion is reasonable as it is one of the best debuffs in the game and hits multiple targets, but expecting your party members to bother with Cursespewing weapons instead of their DPS or Weighted items? That's pretty unreasonable given that it will likely take more than 20 swings in order to land the curse. There are other attack bonus debuffs that can be taken along, but very few characters carry them, and then we're once again pushing toward an ideal party (need a wizard, not a sorc).

As for turtling up, that is a viable strategy some of the time, but as I, A_D and countless others have pointed out in various threads in the past, it is not very much fun. Doing that for a few minutes in the final fight of a raid, in the occasional very tough fight or when things are going sideways is fine, but your implication, Quik, is that this should be the SOP for every mob pack in epic quests, which will be boring as ****!

So, given all of this, tell me again why epic monsters shouldn't have their attack bonuses lowered enough to make high 70s AC begin to yield some defense? I think I can speak for all of us in favor of reducing attack bonuses when I say that we're not looking for 95% immunity at 80 AC, but probably around 50% at that point. That's still not an easy AC to attain, and means that for most AC characters a perfect or near-perfect party will be required in order to gain untouchable AC. Even at the monsters having a +70 attack bonus, Waves of Exhaustion only pushes the 80 AC up to 65% effectiveness, not untouchable.

And if someone wants to run in there with 90+ AC, let them. They'll be doing little else besides not being hit. The devs don't balance content around Shade's DPS, so why should it be balanced around that monk who does 2 damage a swing but is untouchable? It's not like having that high an AC renders one free from fear of dying, as the monsters still have some fairly potent spells, grazing hits, and dispels.


My experience has been that mid 80's ac yields results. Though I will not call someone a liar without testing further, i will do that tonight if I get a chance. Though from RL experience often when complaining of a problem, it is exaggerated. But enough on that until I test it, most of my time is spent doing epic as fast as possible so i dont really bother to ac up much. More on that later.

As far as what would be a fair number. I think 85ish ac should yield around 50% avoidance. Within a few points of this either way is fine with me. IMO on epic you should have to have the very best gear, as well as have sound strategy. I think ac 80 @50% as you suggest is easily atainable with a few debuffs with this break down.

80 ac is not the top end, as such epic mobs shouldnt be balanced for it. Once agian, not discussing this based upon what the ac mechanic "should" be according to some, but what it currently is. If you build and plan and grind and cant get to this point, sorry. Its fairly well known what the ac mechanic is and what gear it takes to get up there. If you chose to make an ac build that doesnt cut it, I dont think the game should be balanced around you.

More later.

ForwardWu
03-01-2010, 04:38 PM
After looking at a new wave of arguments...I just want to ask all of us...

Will you prefer to bring a dps focus toon instead of a AC focus toon into epic content?

Or, will you want to TR your dps toon into a AC toon after playing epic content?

If, there is a preference of DPS toon over AC toon into epic content, the imbalance is clearly here..

Dont say statment like "only best of the best" can go into epic content. So far, no one has a good idea about a best AC toon into EPIC...

Okay, admit it, EPIC is not for AC build....

P.S. If, we, need to, build AC to a point that the dps is so small, will, we, still make AC build?

sephiroth1084
03-01-2010, 04:42 PM
My experience has been that mid 80's ac yields results. Though I will not call someone a liar without testing further, i will do that tonight if I get a chance. Though from RL experience often when complaining of a problem, it is exaggerated. But enough on that until I test it, most of my time is spent doing epic as fast as possible so i dont really bother to ac up much. More on that later.

As far as what would be a fair number. I think 85ish ac should yield around 50% avoidance. Within a few points of this either way is fine with me. IMO on epic you should have to have the very best gear, as well as have sound strategy. I think ac 80 @50% as you suggest is easily atainable with a few debuffs with this break down.

80 ac is not the top end, as such epic mobs shouldnt be balanced for it. Once agian, not discussing this based upon what the ac mechanic "should" be according to some, but what it currently is. If you build and plan and grind and cant get to this point, sorry. Its fairly well known what the ac mechanic is and what gear it takes to get up there. If you chose to make an ac build that doesnt cut it, I dont think the game should be balanced around you.

More later.
Actually, after double-checking, it seems that even hitting 80 AC is a stretch for anyone holding a shield without a perfect party. A couple of epic armors can bump that up by 1 (2 if you happen to have a fairly high Dex that you aren't fitting into your armor currently), and none of the epic shields improve upon Levik's, so...

So, I posted the AC breakdown for S&B users. Let's see one of some TWFer with good DPS that represents a reason for mid-80s AC (10 points higher than S&B can reach on its own) to be a balancing point? As far as I can tell, a paladin using a shield can't hit 85 AC, let alone 90, at all. A fighter can get a little over 90 when blocking.

maddmatt70
03-01-2010, 04:42 PM
After looking at a new wave of arguments...I just want to ask all of us...

Will you prefer to bring a dps focus toon instead of a AC focus toon into epic content?

Or, will you want to TR your dps toon into a AC toon after playing epic content?

If, there is a preference of DPS toon over AC toon into epic content, the imbalance is clearly here..

Dont say statment like "only best of the best" can go into epic content. So far, no one has a good idea about a best AC toon into EPIC...

Oh its absolutely about dps because the amount of time it takes to complete a quest is such an important factor in DDO and dps faciliatates quicker quest completion. The only time in DDO's history that an ac character was potentially nicer was the first year of ddo where resources were limited and ac/dps ratio was so different. Ac can be useful in raids the obvoius example was the VOD raid for the main tank, but the reality is Offense wins championships in DDO and not Defense.

ForwardWu
03-01-2010, 04:48 PM
I do agree that DDO is a DPS game, and Offensive build should win Defensive build in terms of time-cost efficiency..

but to me, at least, given you can spare more time/resources, Defensive build should still get a slot in your toons..

but now, seems EPIC just reject your Defensive toon...which sounds quite silly to me..

I just found it too counter-intuitive that a Full plate offer no more protection then a Robe...the only reason we wear a body gear is that it offers mods....

Xezno
03-01-2010, 04:49 PM
My thoughts on this subject is that DPS scales much more evenly. All melee toons can have some dps in Epics. Its just a matter of the ones having the really good gear doing 10 - 20% more DPS. When it comes to AC on the other hand very few if any will have much benefit from it. Having all the best gear might give you a slight chance of not getting hit while lacking a few items will make your AC worthless.

You dont need a toon with all the best dps gear to contribute in Epics, you do however need all the best AC gear and be built for it in order to mitigate some dammage.

Quikster
03-01-2010, 04:52 PM
I do agree that DDO is a DPS game, and Offensive build should win Defensive build in terms of time-cost efficiency..

but to me, at least, given you can spare more time/resources, Defensive build should still get a slot in your toons..

but now, seems EPIC just reject your Defensive toon...which sounds quite silly to me..

I just found it too counter-intuitive that a Full plate offer no more protection then a Robe...the only reason we wear a body gear is that it offers mods....

Even though dps is king, i still have several builds that focus on ac more. All of them have acceptable dps options to go with the ac though. IMO building for one or the other leads to a bad build. Even huge dps builds need to have some form of defense. Most use high hitpoints and healing amp as its much less demanding on stats and gear.

ForwardWu
03-01-2010, 05:03 PM
I think the issue most of the players with AC build with the epic is...how come Turbine penalize AC build so much severe than DPS build....

I always think that AC build is a "niche" build, which you will only be benefit from a small window...when your AC is too high, your extra point of AC is useless, while your AC is too low, your AC is completely useless. However, before EPIC, the window is between AC60-80, so most of the AC build based before EPIC has this range of AC...

However, after EPIC is released, the window is moved up into mid80-mid90 (while none of us has enough experience to tell the best window yet), while not giving attainable solution without..
(1) sacrifice a lot of DPS
(2) need a lot of party buffs.
(3) reroll into a DPS build

I do understand DPS build has a hit on to-hit issue, however, as least you can grind more for some +to hit item, or at worst, TR fighter a few times to get the extra to-hit...

pls, at least give AC build a way to solve the issue before all of us rerolling/tr-ing a DPS only build

p.s. maybe the only good AC solution is getting completionist to boost ur AC by 2 (2 dex, 2 wis, given you are monk based AC build)

Quikster
03-01-2010, 05:16 PM
I think the issue most of the players with AC build with the epic is...how come Turbine penalize AC build so much severe than DPS build....

I always think that AC build is a "niche" build, which you will only be benefit from a small window...when your AC is too high, your extra point of AC is useless, while your AC is too low, your AC is completely useless. However, before EPIC, the window is between AC60-80, so most of the AC build based before EPIC has this range of AC...

However, after EPIC is released, the window is moved up into mid80-mid90 (while none of us has enough experience to tell the best window yet), while not giving attainable solution without..
(1) sacrifice a lot of DPS
(2) need a lot of party buffs.
(3) reroll into a DPS build

I do understand DPS build has a hit on to-hit issue, however, as least you can grind more for some +to hit item, or at worst, TR fighter a few times to get the extra to-hit...

pls, at least give AC build a way to solve the issue before all of us rerolling/tr-ing a DPS only build

p.s. maybe the only good AC solution is getting completionist to boost ur AC by 2 (2 dex, 2 wis, given you are monk based AC build)

60-80 may have been the window some shot for, but it wasn't the window for the hardest content in the game

Borror0
03-01-2010, 07:12 PM
The OP is talking about a twf monk. Seems that this is a twf build. Why take twf line if your sole purpose to exist is high ac?
He's a monk. Picking the TWF line is the best way to build an AC monk.

I dont think its unreasonable to ask a s&b tank to turtle once he has agro in order to raise his ac by 5 and gain blocking dr.

It's unreasonable for one simple reason: DDO is so easy that it's not necessary for him to do so.

In other competitors' games, the game designers make sure that a DPS build will get torn into shreds if he ends up stealing the aggro from the main tank. In DDO, however, the game is so easy that it is common place for a DPS build to have aggro at all times. Regardless of if this is good or bad, it does mean that turtling up is a pointless reduction of DPS output: if a DPS build can handle the hate, why ask a S&B build to turtle up when you can instead ask him to turn PA on and switch to TWF?

By designing S&B like this, you're making it unfun to new players. That's a problem, since many of them will want to play tanks.

I disagree. If he is missing gear for an ac build, and yes ac is driven more from gear than dps, then he should suffer for it. Yes the mechanic can be changed so he doenst suffer as much, but any ac mechanic should punish players who dont have the gear to boost their ac, and reward the players that do.
I think epic does need to be balanced for the best skilled players and the best geared. There are enough people that have been playing since day 1 and know the game inside and out and have every piece of gear possible. If Epic is not balanced toward them it would be a cakewalk.
You're missing the point. The problem is not that the AC mechanics punish players who lack the AC; while the current system has many flaws, that is a relatively reasonable part of the system. The problem is how large the difference between "close to best" and "best" is. Like I said above, being short of three pieces of gear and having what many would call an average party is enough to throw you off the dice. That's a problem.

The problem is very complex and has many layer, but at this point it's unreasonable to expect Turbine to fix it. If they had the desire and ability to fix it, they would have done so at some point in the last three years. So, the very least we can ask is to drop the AC mark to a reasonable point. Grazing hits prevent high AC from being overpowered anyway.

By the way, in case someone wonders what the layers of the problem are:
1. Narrow window of meaningful Armor Class.
2. Large gap between second to best gear alternative and best gear (partially because some of them are Exceptional bonuses).
3. Excessive exclusivity of powerful Armor Class buffs.
4. Too steep progression of avoidance per point of AC.
5. Lack of critical hits preventing low DPS target from being threatening.

gavagai
03-01-2010, 07:36 PM
I think the issue most of the players with AC build with the epic is...how come Turbine penalize AC build so much severe than DPS build....

I always think that AC build is a "niche" build, which you will only be benefit from a small window...when your AC is too high, your extra point of AC is useless, while your AC is too low, your AC is completely useless. However, before EPIC, the window is between AC60-80, so most of the AC build based before EPIC has this range of AC...


This thread reminds me of a number of others we've seen pop up in Epic discussions: how much should Turbine design "challenges" which simply negate playstyles that require lots of investment?

That was the worry about CC: blanket immunities, high saves, and spell nerfs threatened to make top-rate casters into second-rate teammates. Suddenly (people argued) the spells you have are worth very little. Nobody had any idea what Turbine envisioned for the future of casters.

That was the worry about VoN6 trap DCs: making traps that no reasonably balanced rogue could pop negated some of the benefit of bringing balanced rogues that were combat-ready. Suddenly (people argued) the skills you have are worth nothing. Nobody had any idea what Turbine was thinking about stressing one role so heavily on a class with so many roles.

And that's the worry I'm seeing here: high to-hits, on top of glancing blows, simply negate investments in AC. It's not about the specific magic number (83? 96? 110?) that you need to reach to be useful; its the fact that, whatever that number is, all investment made in AC that falls short of the threshold is negated by the d20 system. Since no-one has any idea how narrow the realm of useful "Elite AC" builds will be going forward, its easy to question whether one should even pursue an AC build now or if it will be gimped by Update 5. And it's not entirely clear what Turbine envisions with AC going forward.

We all know the D20 system doesn't do a good job scaling AC beyond the 40s; and yet we have possible ACs from -18 to over 100. The higher it gets, the more sacrifices need to be made to reach those ACs reliably, and the less balanced the build is when its AC is meaningless. As we're learning with Epic Von trapmonkey builds, more specialization isn't always a measure for better quality. "Challenge" is all relative.

I'm not saying these to-hits (which I haven't experienced) should be nerfed, or that higher AC challenges aren't needed. But I wax nostalgic for the notion of casual AC and I wonder, "When does the AC madness end?" When 98% of players ignore AC? 99%? Already AC builds are highly advanced builds, because you need to build for the high probability that your returns on AC will be zero in many situations. If you aren't in the right party, or if you run out of clickies or pots, your "specialty" is worth nothing.

HPs and DPS are casually effective; AC is less and less. +1 damage from a rage pot doesn't negate the effectiveness of the +46 you're already throwing out, and it doesn't throw a 5%-100% variation in the effectiveness your DPS; but the +1AC from haste could very well offer a 100% improvement in AC effectiveness, or conversely the lack of that +1 could mean the other +83 AC is absolutely worthless.

Ultimately Turbine is going to have to do something to either make AC more casually effective at all levels without breaking the game, or come out with a lot more cool-looking robes so all us AC-haters won't look too much alike!

Roman
03-01-2010, 07:51 PM
I confess I have only read about 20% of this thread, but I think I get the gist of it.

EPIC is well... EPIC! Try some different strategy for goodness sake.

Mob AC too high, your to-hit too low? Try Destruction, Imp Destruction, Sunder, Sundering Ozze, you can drop AC by more than 17 points. Toss in some maldroit of bone breaking for more.

Mobs hitting your 75 AC? Try debuffs, exhaustion, weakening and enfeebling.

RadianceII does wonders, so does the Limbchopper effect on Sever. Break out the 5% weighted.

Epic does require a little different strategy than hard or epic, as it should. Try some different tools.

Quikster
03-01-2010, 08:04 PM
He's a monk. Picking the TWF line is the best way to build an AC monk.

It's unreasonable for one simple reason: DDO is so easy that it's not necessary for him to do so.

In other competitors' games, the game designers make sure that a DPS build will get torn into shreds if he ends up stealing the aggro from the main tank. In DDO, however, the game is so easy that it is common place for a DPS build to have aggro at all times. Regardless of if this is good or bad, it does mean that turtling up is a pointless reduction of DPS output: if a DPS build can handle the hate, why ask a S&B build to turtle up when you can instead ask him to turn PA on and switch to TWF?

By designing S&B like this, you're making it unfun to new players. That's a problem, since many of them will want to play tanks.

You're missing the point. The problem is not that the AC mechanics punish players who lack the AC; while the current system has many flaws, that is a relatively reasonable part of the system. The problem is how large the difference between "close to best" and "best" is. Like I said above, being short of three pieces of gear and having what many would call an average party is enough to throw you off the dice. That's a problem.

The problem is very complex and has many layer, but at this point it's unreasonable to expect Turbine to fix it. If they had the desire and ability to fix it, they would have done so at some point in the last three years. So, the very least we can ask is to drop the AC mark to a reasonable point. Grazing hits prevent high AC from being overpowered anyway.

By the way, in case someone wonders what the layers of the problem are:
1. Narrow window of meaningful Armor Class.
2. Large gap between second to best gear alternative and best gear (partially because some of them are Exceptional bonuses).
3. Excessive exclusivity of powerful Armor Class buffs.
4. Too steep progression of avoidance per point of AC.
5. Lack of critical hits preventing low DPS target from being threatening.

not responding to the whole post here, but a few quickies.

Monks blend good dps with good ac. There is no reason they should have the best/highest ac. Some of the last few mods we have seen some of this change.

I dont find it unreasonable to have the ac build pull out a weapon in a quest. Most of the game is like this and i dont mind it. Im with ferr that ac builds really are niche builds that arent needed for the game. We could do away with them totally and still complete anything in the game. So ac builds really are for people that want to play them. When I play mine, I spend most of the time in "dps mode"

You havent convinced me yet borr. I may feel different in 3 updates or so, but will have to wait till then to see what we have available. I in no way feel sorry for monks getting smacked around in epic content however.

ForwardWu
03-01-2010, 08:31 PM
I like DDO because it is unlike other MMORPG, it provides room for players to "customize" your own hero. Be it a crazy dps, shield wall fighter or a hand-to-hand mage. You can still argue that AC is still useful beside Epic content, yet I doubt any player will be happy to see your own hero will be marginalized in the real end game content, given that you have spent time/resources into your build. (save the DPS build, as Turbine never hate them)

Or speaking in a Power-Gamer perspective (well, i doubt any AC build player will not be a so called Power-Gamer given a lot of major item in AC build need a lot of grind), you will soon do not see any diversity among melee toon, as least in the DPS-AC continuum. Personally, I do not think it is a good way to polarize the build concept so much into 1 extreme.

P.S. Builds are not welcomed nowadays: S&B, AC, Range..well..its already 3 types of them...

P.S 2: I understand builds cannot be balanced throughout the whole history of a MMORPG, but I dont want to see after the introduction of TR, we just need to TR a toon based on every update changes to suit the new content everytime....

Borror0
03-01-2010, 08:52 PM
Monks blend good dps with good ac.
There is no basis for that claim.

I dont find it unreasonable to have the ac build pull out a weapon in a quest. Most of the game is like this and i dont mind it. Im with ferr that ac builds really are niche builds that arent needed for the game. We could do away with them totally and still complete anything in the game. So ac builds really are for people that want to play them. When I play mine, I spend most of the time in "dps mode"
You're making it sound as if AC builds are getting less investment because they are a niche. That's backward. Armor Class builds are a niche because they are getting less investment. Generally speaking, people dislike unfun mechanics and will gravitate to the features or games that has the least of them. That's why World of Warcraft is so popular: it removed as much annoyance as possible; it's a very streamlined game. Other MMOs try to find their own niche, because they are less streamlined than WoW.

Mark Rosewater hinted at that fact in his column today (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/80&dcmp=ilc-mtgrss#67631): "The lesson here is that no matter how fun something is, it doesn't undo things that are actively unfun. Fun + unfun = unfun for most players."

If you look at other games where S&B classes are actually well-design, balanced and threated as part of the game you'll notice that they are well represented. There is an interest for that playstyle, among all MMO players. The problem, right now, is that the playstyle is cripple with several major flaws and that is undermining the fun most would draw from it.

The same goes for ranged combat, by the way: it's unpopular because it's crippled with flaws, not because it's fundamentally unfun to most.

I like DDO because it is unlike other MMORPG, it provides room for players to "customize" your own hero. [...] you will soon do not see any diversity among melee toon, as least in the DPS-AC continuum. Personally, I do not think it is a good way to polarize the build concept so much into 1 extreme.
Exactly. This many unbalances severely undermines one of DDO's best unique selling points: the ability to customize your character.

Quikster
03-01-2010, 09:22 PM
There is no basis for that claim.

You're making it sound as if AC builds are getting less investment because they are a niche. That's backward. Armor Class builds are a niche because they are getting less investment. Generally speaking, people dislike unfun mechanics and will gravitate to the features or games that has the least of them. That's why World of Warcraft is so popular: it removed as much annoyance as possible; it's a very streamlined game. Other MMOs try to find their own niche, because they are less streamlined than WoW.

Mark Rosewater hinted at that fact in his column today (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/80&dcmp=ilc-mtgrss#67631): "The lesson here is that no matter how fun something is, it doesn't undo things that are actively unfun. Fun + unfun = unfun for most players."

If you look at other games where S&B classes are actually well-design, balanced and threated as part of the game you'll notice that they are well represented. There is an interest for that playstyle, among all MMO players. The problem, right now, is that the playstyle is cripple with several major flaws and that is undermining the fun most would draw from it.

The same goes for ranged combat, by the way: it's unpopular because it's crippled with flaws, not because it's fundamentally unfun to most.

Exactly. This many unbalances severely undermines one of DDO's best unique selling points: the ability to customize your character.

the only point I really disagree with here is your first. But you make no arguement here on why epic to hit should be lowered, your arguement here is for balance for the s&b style of fighting. Im good with that. While some improvements have been made with recent pre introductions, there is still some work to do.

Monks do have solid dps for the ac they are easily able to achieve, if the monks you run with dont, you need to run with different monks I guess. I run with several on sarlona that while not the mythical "Max DPS" they are still solid.

sephiroth1084
03-02-2010, 12:54 AM
This thread reminds me of a number of others we've seen pop up in Epic discussions: how much should Turbine design "challenges" which simply negate playstyles that require lots of investment?

That was the worry about CC: blanket immunities, high saves, and spell nerfs threatened to make top-rate casters into second-rate teammates. Suddenly (people argued) the spells you have are worth very little. Nobody had any idea what Turbine envisioned for the future of casters.

That was the worry about VoN6 trap DCs: making traps that no reasonably balanced rogue could pop negated some of the benefit of bringing balanced rogues that were combat-ready. Suddenly (people argued) the skills you have are worth nothing. Nobody had any idea what Turbine was thinking about stressing one role so heavily on a class with so many roles.

And that's the worry I'm seeing here: high to-hits, on top of glancing blows, simply negate investments in AC. It's not about the specific magic number (83? 96? 110?) that you need to reach to be useful; its the fact that, whatever that number is, all investment made in AC that falls short of the threshold is negated by the d20 system. Since no-one has any idea how narrow the realm of useful "Elite AC" builds will be going forward, its easy to question whether one should even pursue an AC build now or if it will be gimped by Update 5. And it's not entirely clear what Turbine envisions with AC going forward.

We all know the D20 system doesn't do a good job scaling AC beyond the 40s; and yet we have possible ACs from -18 to over 100. The higher it gets, the more sacrifices need to be made to reach those ACs reliably, and the less balanced the build is when its AC is meaningless. As we're learning with Epic Von trapmonkey builds, more specialization isn't always a measure for better quality. "Challenge" is all relative.

I'm not saying these to-hits (which I haven't experienced) should be nerfed, or that higher AC challenges aren't needed. But I wax nostalgic for the notion of casual AC and I wonder, "When does the AC madness end?" When 98% of players ignore AC? 99%? Already AC builds are highly advanced builds, because you need to build for the high probability that your returns on AC will be zero in many situations. If you aren't in the right party, or if you run out of clickies or pots, your "specialty" is worth nothing.

HPs and DPS are casually effective; AC is less and less. +1 damage from a rage pot doesn't negate the effectiveness of the +46 you're already throwing out, and it doesn't throw a 5%-100% variation in the effectiveness your DPS; but the +1AC from haste could very well offer a 100% improvement in AC effectiveness, or conversely the lack of that +1 could mean the other +83 AC is absolutely worthless.

Ultimately Turbine is going to have to do something to either make AC more casually effective at all levels without breaking the game, or come out with a lot more cool-looking robes so all us AC-haters won't look too much alike!
Very well written post. +1!


I confess I have only read about 20% of this thread, but I think I get the gist of it.

You clearly did not get the gist of this thread, or even the title, and I doubt you read even 5% of the posts herein. We're not talking about epic monsters having too much AC, but that our AC is largely negated by the over-inflated attack bonuses on epic monsters. Thanks for playing.


not responding to the whole post here, but a few quickies.

Monks blend good dps with good ac. There is no reason they should have the best/highest ac. Some of the last few mods we have seen some of this change.

I dont find it unreasonable to have the ac build pull out a weapon in a quest. Most of the game is like this and i dont mind it. Im with ferr that ac builds really are niche builds that arent needed for the game. We could do away with them totally and still complete anything in the game. So ac builds really are for people that want to play them. When I play mine, I spend most of the time in "dps mode"

You havent convinced me yet borr. I may feel different in 3 updates or so, but will have to wait till then to see what we have available. I in no way feel sorry for monks getting smacked around in epic content however.

AC builds aren't needed in the sense that content can get done without them, but that's true of basically everything but straight DPS and some healing. That is a completely irrelevant statement, because there is more than a simple yes/no switch in how quests get addressed here. Speed, ease, fun, resources used/saved, challenge... AC builds figure into this. Trapsmiths do as well. The problem is they these are being increasingly marginalized.

High-AC unshielded characters are going to be taking a fair amount of damage from grazing hits, which serves to balance their untouchable state somewhat.

Again, why shouldn't epic mobs have their attack bonuses reduced? It doesn't affect 95% of the characters who head into epic content as even if the mobs lost 25 points of attack bonus they'd be landing 95% of their attacks.

We're talking about the builds with 70+ AC. Currently, the epic content seems balanced around AC around 90, which is ridiculous. What reason is there for that? So the Dex/Wis, low DPS monks can't be untouchable, every other AC character gets screwed?

This isn't about challenge. This isn't about being properly geared. I showed how an AC tank with a shield, with every piece of applicable AC gear in the game isn't even scratching the lowest value of AC that is necessary without quite a few party buffs, and even then may not have enough for the AC to be worth having. Is it so important to properly threaten these outlandish 90+ AC characters that everyone else with a focus on AC is left out in the cold?

As a stopgap, the epic monster's attack bonuses should be lowered until Turbine can properly address these issues with AC. So far the best solutions I've seen have been:

-Give monsters iterative attack bonuses/penalties similar to ours (probably make their highest attack first, with decreasing attack bonuses on later attacks) in order to expand the range of viable AC figures. I say highest first, because if the lowest were first, we would certainly see an increase in hit and run tactics, and more kiting, as it's much easier for us to land a hit and move, than for the monsters to do so.

-Roll AC on a d20. Instead of AC being 10+modifiers, it would be 1d20+modifiers.

Either one of these by itself would expand the range of useful AC by up to around 20 points, but putting them together could push that up to 40 or so (if I'm off, it's late and math isn't my strongest suit generally). It may mean a lot of coding, but I think it would be worth the programming time to ensure that AC still means something going forward. Hell, thinking about it, the effective range of ACs would probably be quite a bit more than 40 with both of the above suggestions implemented...

We could see a trend back to the way DDO used to be, where nearly everyone would be wearing some AC gear for the chance to reduce their incoming damage by 10% or so.

quickbunnie
03-03-2010, 11:22 PM
It seems that there are 2 basic arguments:
1) Epic content is not fun because it doesn't reflect proper balance: well-geared, difficult to build AC characters are less effective than easy-mode DPS builds.
2) "EPIC" content is inherently unfair, as it should be. If its too much of a challenge, play with another character.

So I suppose the argument comes down to what "Epic" should be. I agree with argument 1.
Here's my reasoning:
Other MMOs do have unfair quests. Difficulties where only the most dedicated power-gamers with perfect, top-end gear are able to complete, and only a very small percentage of the time. I would expect that an unfair quest like that would be beaten only a few times per month on any server. In this case, temporary uber-gear could be awarded as a trophy, and perhaps some more top-end gear (As A_D pointed out, loot matters). For DDO, if this is the goal, Turbine can indeed do whatever they want, including making AC useless. In the next epic release, they could make all the mobs have insane DR (w/ % damage reduction) or SR/elemental immunities and make casters or DPS builds useless. The whole point of these quests is sort of like a challenge from the developers: The impossible dungeon.

But I don't think that's what Turbine wants to do. I feel that Turbine is in fact adding a higher difficulty level, but one that can be applied to old quests, so that the older levels aren't obsoleted by the increasing level cap. These quests are indeed supposed to be very difficult, and only a well balanced, well geared, and well played party will complete them. But the assumption is that IF you are a good party, you will succeed at a consistent rate. Maybe not 100%, but perhaps 50%. The reason I think this is true, is because it requires grinding to get epic loot. To me, grinding for ANY level loot = some measurement of consistent success is intended. If that is the case, then the philosophy stands that a specific aspect of the game (AC) should not become obsoleted in the face of others. If the epic loot didn't require grinding, then Turbine is free to make the quests as inhumanely difficult as possible, as it now belongs in the "unfair" category above.

I disagree that every part of the game will be fun for every player. There are casual players and there are power-gamers. A casual gamer will probably never have the gear to run epic quests, whereas the power-gamer will be tired of the normal-level grinding and constantly looking for higher difficulties. For a game to be financially viable, it needs to cater to all types of players, and inherently will have content that is not fun for some.

Now if we are looking at the power-gamer only group, having all AC tank builds obsoleted in ALL epic level quests is a problem, assuming epic is what I think turbine wants it to be (not unfair). However, if there is a spread of usefulness of the different character types in different epic quests, that is fine (think melee in DQ2). If the later epic releases makes AC tank builds essential, then that would be balanced, IMO.

As of now, I do feel it needs to be changed.

Valiance
03-03-2010, 11:41 PM
Quickbunnie that has to be the best post I have ever read from someone with so few posts.

You just received my 3rd ever +1 rep.

V

Twerpp
03-03-2010, 11:43 PM
/signed

There's no reason to have one class or a few classes strictly better in endgame content than others--even if AC isn't ideal for epic and the 0-AC high hp builds are better, AC should have some effect.

There is a reason. Mana pots available in Turbine Store. If it has to be a nonstop heal fest you will use the store more.

quickbunnie
03-04-2010, 12:27 PM
Quickbunnie that has to be the best post I have ever read from someone with so few posts.

You just received my 3rd ever +1 rep.

V

I'm sort of an obsessive lurker, lol. But I am honored by the rep.

Orratti
03-04-2010, 08:33 PM
I read somewhere in a DM guide once and I'm betting that it is in all of them in one form or another that the object of the game is to have fun. Making undefeatable quests while it may be fun for a dm is not fun for a player.

This is not what I am saying is being done Epic content is defeatable that is a fact. The thing is that combat options are being constricted and squeezed mostly in an effort to supply challenge to huge dps builds. That challenge is easily met simply by dumping more hps on the target. No problem. Lowering the to hit of the monsters in question would have no effect on most of these. They are going to get hit anyway. Making the to hit of the monsters so high that ac has no effect on them eliminates completely any ac build. Period. I'm not going to make an argument that this has been done. Whether it has or hasn't doesn't matter. The fact is it could be done and alot of people wouldn't care because that is not their build and if it has no effect on their build then fine the other guy was gimped so reroll or reincarnate.

If you want to be a high ac then you got to grind for it. Okay fine that is acceptable although alot harder than just building a dps melee. The real question becomes after grinding for all that gear how close are we to having that effort be worthless? How close are we to the point where having the highest ac reachable by a non monk or monk mix class is completely ineffective?

Delacroix21
03-05-2010, 07:12 PM
Eh, my solution was to drop combat expertise for power attack, and some get swapping until fixed.


But really this needs to be adjusted, with greensteel handwraps being added as well (will up my AC by 8, for a self buffed of 81).

Lleren
03-06-2010, 02:50 AM
If you want to be a high ac then you got to grind for it. Okay fine that is acceptable although alot harder than just building a dps melee. The real question becomes after grinding for all that gear how close are we to having that effort be worthless? How close are we to the point where having the highest ac reachable by a non monk or monk mix class is completely ineffective?

It sounds like we are there, if you try and do it without class specific buffs and potions.

ForwardWu
03-08-2010, 01:12 AM
'The fact is it could be done and alot of people wouldn't care because that is not their build and if it has no effect on their build then fine the other guy was gimped so reroll or reincarnate.'

I would like to see, when, the day, DPS will fall, and, AC will rise again....

Sometime I hear hallucination when I play DDO, said "you are gimped as you build AC build, I am smart because I play dps....."