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Braed
02-25-2010, 11:51 AM
I'm not going to pretend to understand the mechanics behind this bug. I realize it gets "easier" the more you level up with a longer duration, it seems to effect players to different degrees, and the volume of lag created can also vary.

I've read the issue is when cast, it spams the different weapon proficiencies (and also when it wears off), which creates the lag. I'm not sure if this is true or why, if it is, this would create issues with other spell effects sticking to the player.

Regardless, I'm pretty sure my fix would address the issue. When you select the spell (not cast it) it occupies one of your level 1 spells slots. At this point, subtract 10 (or whatever you think is fair) from the power pool and grant the proficiencies, sort of like passive feats. Turn it from an active spell ability into a passive, persistent one. As long as you have the spell in your "book" you have the proficiencies.

When a Wizard puts it in his/her book, the effect takes place. When the Bard or Sorcerer selects it as one of their spells, the effect kicks in. Just like a proficiency granting weapon or mobility robe grants the feats, so would having the spell in one of your slots.

If this isn't a new idea, I apologize. I've searched the forums for a work around to the issue and I didn't see anything about a fix like this being suggested to Turbine.

Feedback/tweaks/enlightenment appreciated!

Salsa
02-25-2010, 01:55 PM
Just give a +4 comp bonus to ab when using martial or simple weapons when in affect.

It already has to calculate AB + weapon bonus + str/dex + feats + enhancemnts

Just add one more.

Braed
02-25-2010, 02:02 PM
Just give a +4 comp bonus to ab when using martial or simple weapons when in affect.

It already has to calculate AB + weapon bonus + str/dex + feats + enhancemnts

Just add one more.

Wouldn't that add a +4 bonus to weapons the classes could already use? Besides, there are other buffs in the game that add comp bonus to attack, which would be negated/watered down.

Ninetoes
02-25-2010, 02:02 PM
TANSTAAFL.

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Weapon Proficiency, either. -10 SP permanently for the weapon proficiency list of a fighter? Where's the tradeoff? You don't even need to extend it, just "have" the spell.

I agree, master's touch is annoying. But, Turbine will never implement something like what you've suggested because it's bass-ackwards from the way EVERY OTHER SPELL in the game works (to the best of my knowledge.)

Want to fix master's touch? Don't use it. Grab a weapon proficiency in whatever 2 hander you want, and smash things until you hit lvl 8 (7 for wizards). Problem solved. Swap it out when you get a spell selection that warrants no longer using your weapon. No sense in using a borked mechanic when you can, for a very small amount of gold later on (feat respec) completely circumvent the problem. I did this on my WF sorc and it worked wonders.

Salsa
02-25-2010, 02:16 PM
Wouldn't that add a +4 bonus to weapons the classes could already use? Besides, there are other buffs in the game that add comp bonus to attack, which would be negated/watered down.


Yup, you would just need an IF statement

In laymans terms, the code checks for proficiency (it does anyways), if the char has prof it continues normally, otherwise it checks for master's touch being active. If so, it adds to the AB.

Depending on the code, you may not even need a named variable.

IE If the combat sequence just adds to a total you wouldn't need a variable. IE BAB + STR + Enhance + Mag + Comp2 = TotAB. Regardless, they can just call it comp2 or some other variable.

The additional lag from a couple lines of code would be unnoticeable whereas the lag for adding the proficiencies is horrendous.

It really boils down to how they have their code written on how easy it would be to implement.

rimble
02-25-2010, 02:29 PM
The additional lag from a couple lines of code would be unnoticeable whereas the lag for adding the proficiencies is horrendous.

It really boils down to how they have their code written on how easy it would be to implement.

Yeah, but one big slow down out of combat is probably better than a bunch of insignificant little performance slow downs on every single swing. They add up.

Strakeln
02-25-2010, 02:33 PM
I'm not going to pretend to understand the mechanics behind this bug. I realize it gets "easier" the more you level up with a longer duration, it seems to effect players to different degrees, and the volume of lag created can also vary.

I've read the issue is when cast, it spams the different weapon proficiencies (and also when it wears off), which creates the lag. I'm not sure if this is true or why, if it is, this would create issues with other spell effects sticking to the player.

Regardless, I'm pretty sure my fix would address the issue. When you select the spell (not cast it) it occupies one of your level 1 spells slots. At this point, subtract 10 (or whatever you think is fair) from the power pool and grant the proficiencies, sort of like passive feats. Turn it from an active spell ability into a passive, persistent one. As long as you have the spell in your "book" you have the proficiencies.

When a Wizard puts it in his/her book, the effect takes place. When the Bard or Sorcerer selects it as one of their spells, the effect kicks in. Just like a proficiency granting weapon or mobility robe grants the feats, so would having the spell in one of your slots.

If this isn't a new idea, I apologize. I've searched the forums for a work around to the issue and I didn't see anything about a fix like this being suggested to Turbine.

Feedback/tweaks/enlightenment appreciated!
Good idea, +rep.

Braed
02-25-2010, 02:34 PM
TANSTAAFL.

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Weapon Proficiency, either. -10 SP permanently for the weapon proficiency list of a fighter? Where's the tradeoff? You don't even need to extend it, just "have" the spell.

The trade-off is a spell slot and the cost. Besides, I very clearly said, whatever they think is fair. I'll leave the balance up to them. I'm not asking for a free lunch here, I'm suggesting a fix.


I agree, master's touch is annoying. But, Turbine will never implement something like what you've suggested because it's bass-ackwards from the way EVERY OTHER SPELL in the game works (to the best of my knowledge.)

Want to fix master's touch? Don't use it. Grab a weapon proficiency in whatever 2 hander you want, and smash things until you hit lvl 8 (7 for wizards). Problem solved. Swap it out when you get a spell selection that warrants no longer using your weapon. No sense in using a borked mechanic when you can, for a very small amount of gold later on (feat respec) completely circumvent the problem. I did this on my WF sorc and it worked wonders.

So not using it is your fix? Okay, just move along. This thread isn't for you. Not everybody uses MT until they get their Firewall.

I created this thread to put forth an idea, and I welcome feedback on the mechanism, work arounds, alternative ideas like Salsa has come up with, etc. I wasn't looking to be trolled and accused of asking for a handout.

Braed
02-25-2010, 02:37 PM
Yup, you would just need an IF statement

In laymans terms, the code checks for proficiency (it does anyways), if the char has prof it continues normally, otherwise it checks for master's touch being active. If so, it adds to the AB.

Depending on the code, you may not even need a named variable.

IE If the combat sequence just adds to a total you wouldn't need a variable. IE BAB + STR + Enhance + Mag + Comp2 = TotAB. Regardless, they can just call it comp2 or some other variable.

The additional lag from a couple lines of code would be unnoticeable whereas the lag for adding the proficiencies is horrendous.

It really boils down to how they have their code written on how easy it would be to implement.

Thanks for the feedback. It sounds like what you're talking about would work as well. I'm probably the last person on the planet who would understand coding and things like that :)

Salsa
02-25-2010, 02:38 PM
Yeah, but one big slow down out of combat is probably better than a bunch of insignificant little performance slow downs on every single swing. They add up.

:: nods:: Understandable logic, the lag should be no different then working with a bless spell on. I personally I don't see a difference with a bless spell but there is probably a .000000001 micro second difference.

bobbryan2
02-25-2010, 02:40 PM
Something like this is needed.

I've wondered if it would be possible to make a feat "martial weapon proficiency" and simply grant that, instead of granting 20 individual feats. But their code might not be set up that way. As it is, the lag spike when shrining and recasting is annoying enough to want to get weened off the spell.

Anderei
02-25-2010, 02:58 PM
You all think too complicated, Just implement a server/client protocol message "masters touch on/off", client translates it to all proficiencies. They were just too lazy to implement it properly and some poor coder thought sending all proficiencies one by one was a smarter idea than to add another call.

Salsa
02-25-2010, 04:42 PM
You all think too complicated, Just implement a server/client protocol message "masters touch on/off", client translates it to all proficiencies. They were just too lazy to implement it properly and some poor coder thought sending all proficiencies one by one was a smarter idea than to add another call.


Actually that might be more complicated. You have to consider what their current code is likely set up as. Right now they likely have one of two methods for proficiencies:

1) either they check for proficiency at each iteration of series of attacks IE when your attack sequence begins they check for proficiency

2) they update some AB variable when an item is equipped checking the proficiency then (or in this case it checks after the spell is cast and wears off)


Either way, they check each individual feat possessed to match against the equipped weapon before updating the bonuses.

Likely somewhere there is a nested or series of nested IFs (a nested IF for those not coding inclined is an IF within an IF possibly multiple times).


This would make sense due to the series of attacks with different ABs.

Now, we know that the system works correctly for calculating proficiencies and affects like bless etc so we can surmise they have the logic setup to handle different kinds of bonuses.

What you propose is to bypass the proficiency check(IE don't check each proficiency) and add a Flag to denote proficiency (Master's Touch only gives Martial/Simple I think so it wouldn't be all (IE no exotic)regardless which makes it a bit more complicated, someone check that, not sure if it gives exotic or not?). Top of my head you would have to add an OR statement to each check on the Proficiency or completely bypass the checking mechanism. Or statements in nested IFs are real easy to screw up (well not really but people do it anyways).

Essentially it would add a new methodology (probably why the coder did what they did trying to stick with the current methodology) which always adds an extra level of error proneness.

Now that is assuming if it gives all proficiencies, if it doesn't then the Flag becomes more complex.

Or, as I was saying, use existing methodologies, IE checking for spell affects etc, since we know they check spell affects etc each round and simply add a +4 (negating the minus) if the weapon is non proficient and either a martial or simple weapon.


Both methods would work depending on how they have the logic setup. I just prefer to stick with a method already being used then make a new exception.



Now it's possible they are using a DB that you could assign a generic Feat MasterProf that has denoted what weapon types it covers. I doubt they have it setup that way though as I can't think of any other circumstance that it would happen in current use.


Really I would need to see (or hear) exactly how the logic works for it.

rimble
02-25-2010, 04:52 PM
:: nods:: Understandable logic, the lag should be no different then working with a bless spell on. I personally I don't see a difference with a bless spell but there is probably a .000000001 micro second difference.

It's like Superman III. You take those fractions of a penny, err, I mean lag...and you put them into a separate account, uhm, I mean user interface, and over time, those pen, err, lag, accumulate to appreciable amounts.

Anderei
02-25-2010, 04:52 PM
This is all done serverside, there is no damage calculation whatsoeve on the client, so this can all be waived. The only reason the client gets the proficiency infos is because it has to show the items not yellow with a warning exclamation mark when under masters touch. Yes this would require some ORs in the client, which would be how much to code?

Phidius
02-25-2010, 05:01 PM
Besides the lag and the eternal-buff-debuff-symbols, the other problem I had with Master's Touch was that they could debuff it. Very annoying to have to reapply yet another buff, so I just took a level of Fighter as my fix.

However, I don't think it will be productive to suggest ways for them to fix it, unless we've all gotten to examine their code at length to see what the problem is.


I strongly recommend the use of the /rant syntax, describe a funny/sad/emotionally moving story, then follow it up with threats to leave the game if Turbine doesn't fix it.

The use of "DoOOoOOOoOOOOomMM!!!!" is entirely optional.

Ninetoes
02-25-2010, 05:11 PM
The trade-off is a spell slot and the cost. Besides, I very clearly said, whatever they think is fair. I'll leave the balance up to them. I'm not asking for a free lunch here, I'm suggesting a fix.



So not using it is your fix? Okay, just move along. This thread isn't for you. Not everybody uses MT until they get their Firewall.

I created this thread to put forth an idea, and I welcome feedback on the mechanism, work arounds, alternative ideas like Salsa has come up with, etc. I wasn't looking to be trolled and accused of asking for a handout.

No one is trolling you, man, least of all me. I offered a possible work around, but that's it. The problem with your original idea is that it's calling for a unique spell mechanic that doesn't exist anywhere else, it functions more like an enhancement or a feat, and therefore isn't really a viable solution. I think you mistook the tone of my post to be something other than what it was.

I'm not accusing you of actually asking for a free lunch, that's just what your solution effectively grants. There isn't a spell in the game that simply "takes effect" when you scribe it, and the problem is even worse with sorcs/bards.
The ideas put forth in this thread are excellent, and your post has fostered an excellent discussion. Don't take my criticism personally. A bad idea does not imply anything about the person putting it forward.

I'm going to opt to ignore your suggestion to "move on", as I'm very interested in the thread itself. I would put forth a suggestion of my own. Be a tad less sensitive.

Cheers
~toes

Braed
02-25-2010, 05:57 PM
No one is trolling you, man, least of all me. I offered a possible work around, but that's it. The problem with your original idea is that it's calling for a unique spell mechanic that doesn't exist anywhere else, it functions more like an enhancement or a feat, and therefore isn't really a viable solution. I think you mistook the tone of my post to be something other than what it was.

I'm not accusing you of actually asking for a free lunch, that's just what your solution effectively grants. There isn't a spell in the game that simply "takes effect" when you scribe it, and the problem is even worse with sorcs/bards.
The ideas put forth in this thread are excellent, and your post has fostered an excellent discussion. Don't take my criticism personally. A bad idea does not imply anything about the person putting it forward.

I'm going to opt to ignore your suggestion to "move on", as I'm very interested in the thread itself. I would put forth a suggestion of my own. Be a tad less sensitive.

Cheers
~toes

You didn't offer a work around. You said not to use it, and suggested feat or respec options which at the end of the day, simply masks a broken spell. I wasn't asking how to make up for it not working. I brought this to the Suggestion forum for a reason, and I'm well aware that I'm asking for a unique spell mechanic, as this is a fairly unique issue.

This isn't a case of me being overly sensitive to your post. I went out of my way to post it here and whether intended or not, your post in a way said, "don't use it, do this instead...no biggie", which trivializes the issue.

It seems like others who know more about what goes on behind the scenes in games like these have easier solutions anyways. At the end of the day if some sort of fix ends up in the game, I'm happy. Heck, if you an I end up having a 2-3 page "frenemy" fest and somebody takes notice and it leads to a change, that would be fine by me too...

But I get to be Paris and you have to be Nicole you skinny lil bish ;)

Salsa
02-25-2010, 06:00 PM
This is all done serverside, there is no damage calculation whatsoeve on the client, so this can all be waived. The only reason the client gets the proficiency infos is because it has to show the items not yellow with a warning exclamation mark when under masters touch. Yes this would require some ORs in the client, which would be how much to code?

Really depends on how it's coded. I was actually pondering that depending how it's coded it might be simpler using your method.


If they have it set where there is a call to a Proficiency Check Module (IE all the proficiency checking is done separate) then you could make it an IF at that point where it checks for Masters Touch and equipped item and if MT isn't appropriate it then checks normal proficiencies.

But it also matters on how they apply everything. The AB calculations might be tied directly into the proficiency checking.



As for the ORs it depends on how it is done, in theory it could be as little as one, if it is embedded in IF statements it could be a lot.

Ninetoes
02-25-2010, 06:23 PM
You didn't offer a work around. You said not to use it, and suggested feat or respec options which at the end of the day, simply masks a broken spell. I wasn't asking how to make up for it not working. I brought this to the Suggestion forum for a reason, and I'm well aware that I'm asking for a unique spell mechanic, as this is a fairly unique issue.

This isn't a case of me being overly sensitive to your post. I went out of my way to post it here and whether intended or not, your post in a way said, "don't use it, do this instead...no biggie", which trivializes the issue.

It seems like others who know more about what goes on behind the scenes in games like these have easier solutions anyways. At the end of the day if some sort of fix ends up in the game, I'm happy. Heck, if you an I end up having a 2-3 page "frenemy" fest and somebody takes notice and it leads to a change, that would be fine by me too...

But I get to be Paris and you have to be Nicole you skinny lil bish ;)


You're right, I was wrong. I did what I yell at my co-workers for doing, offering work-arounds instead of solutions. I'd neg-rep myself if I could. My intent was not to blow off the horrid mechanic of the spell, but I effectively did. In the spirit of my OP, I'd like to point out that you misspelled "Frienemy", and that Paris and Nicole are no longer even considered Frienemies. Or maybe they are. I can't keep track anyone, I'm kept busy nitpicking constructive posts and derailing them...




1) either they check for proficiency at each iteration of series of attacks IE when your attack sequence begins they check for proficiency

2) they update some AB variable when an item is equipped checking the proficiency then (or in this case it checks after the spell is cast and wears off)


I find Scenario 2 to be more likely. Test it this way:

Pull up your character sheet, then cast/equip something (from a hotbar, not from the sheet) that either effects attack rating, or AC. about half of the time, you character sheet doesn't actually update. If you close it and re-open it again, it's updated. The sheet makes a call to the server to check the AB variable. I don't think the server is checking for proficiency with every series of attacks. If it did, we'd have a LOT more lag than we already do in high-mele DPS scenarios. It could also be some unholy union of both methods.

I think the best idea mentioned is to add a flag to masters that simply bypasses the proficiency check for martial/simple weapons. This makes more sense than tossing a bunch of OR statements into the almost-assuredly nested IF's.

I'm also not exactly a master coder, so I might be looking at this in the wrong light.

Salsa
02-25-2010, 07:12 PM
I find Scenario 2 to be more likely. Test it this way:

Pull up your character sheet, then cast/equip something (from a hotbar, not from the sheet) that either effects attack rating, or AC. about half of the time, you character sheet doesn't actually update. If you close it and re-open it again, it's updated. The sheet makes a call to the server to check the AB variable. I don't think the server is checking for proficiency with every series of attacks. If it did, we'd have a LOT more lag than we already do in high-mele DPS scenarios. It could also be some unholy union of both methods.

I think the best idea mentioned is to add a flag to masters that simply bypasses the proficiency check for martial/simple weapons. This makes more sense than tossing a bunch of OR statements into the almost-assuredly nested IF's.

I'm also not exactly a master coder, so I might be looking at this in the wrong light.


:: nods:: That's what is worrying me. Here's why.

Bob equips his weaponry, his AB is calculated based on his BAB, likely feats, enhancements, and weapon bonuses. These are static so this would make sense. This also where it would check for proficiency. This number is then stored somewhere. Let's call it BaseAB.

Now, while in combat is where it gets tricky. Here it will have to calculate spells , temporary affects, and flanking etc. This means it will have to be adjusted per series of attacks(heck it might even be recalculated every attack within the series if Player A Trips Monster A and Player B attacks in the middle of their series or if affects are dispelled). We will call this ModAB. Whenever an affect is changed (by timer or dispelled or by situation) this module gets called. Let's assume this is a module on it's own (or series thereof).

This means a bunch of modifiers are then calculated into ModAB and applied to BaseAB to get TotalAB. Correct me if I am wrong, but DDO follows the lower AB with each stage of the series of attacks? Which means we likely have a loop at this point.


:: twitches::

This is where the current MT comes into play. When the duration runs out or renewed it must add/remove the Feats then calls a proficiency check module (for the love of golly why?) to recalculate BaseAB. Ok, now let's use the Flag, it's set to allow all martial/simple so the first thing it has to do is determine if the weapon is one of those. Do they even have a variable for that? How would it know? I ask this because if they had some variable to denote martial and simple it would of been easier to use then adding every simple/martial feat. Course now, thinking on this, it is a hindrance to my method as well.

Which means it is likely a combo of both.

...oh gawds...I think I know what the problem is.

I suspect they are dealing with spaghetti code(IE a big mess of code written by dozens of programmers with different styles). I think the reason it hasn't been fixed is their sub groups aren't grouped into modules (sections of code separate from the main code that does a specific function)

Ninetoes
02-25-2010, 07:31 PM
Given the way the game's worked for so long, I think you can safely assume there is a DB (database for you guys that are following along) variable for all weapon variables. Size (Light, one handed, two handed), Type (simple, Martial, Exotic) Damage Type (Piecing, Slashing, Bludgeoning, Forehead). This HAS to be the case, because I'm pretty sure you're on to something with it being an spaghetti-coded mix of a proficiency check for each iteration of attacks, AND when something is equipped.

So, yes, Master's COULD be flagged in such a way as to simply ignore the variable for anything that is not exotic (if WeapType <> 3) instead of a check (if WeapType = 1, 2) or (if WeapType= 1 OR if WeapType=2).

Something else to consider as well to support the theory that it checks both the static variable upon equipping an item, AND during a combat "turn." Mobility (the feat) adds a base +4 AC while tumbling.

Now, it's well known that the character sheet doesn't always update when you swap out items. It ALSO doesn't properly update if an arcane caster equips a martial weapon and then casts MT (seen this happen before). It does, however, properly update AC while tumbling, without fail. I've tested this out of curiosity with a vet status monk newbie.

Now that I think about it, this is almost assuredly the way it would HAVE to work, given how many variables there are in active combat. It's almost like the updates for the different checks (active combat checks Vs. the "standing around method") are coming from 2 different datasources or locations...

Oh...@#$#.

Salsa
02-25-2010, 08:13 PM
This is where you say...


'if you got them boys, drink them, it's going to be a long night'

I was kind of hoping they weren't using a DB. Because...

Let's assume they are using DB2. It should be easy to use SQL to work with the DB. It should be an easy matter to update/edit the tables to add the required fields.

The fact it hasn't been done suggests a number of things are possible:

1) This is low priority
2) The coding is such it is much more complex then thought
3) This isn't cost effective to fix atm


Well, if they need any help I am sure we can send some their way :)

krud
02-25-2010, 08:28 PM
Regardless, I'm pretty sure my fix would address the issue. When you select the spell (not cast it) it occupies one of your level 1 spells slots. At this point, subtract 10 (or whatever you think is fair) from the power pool and grant the proficiencies, sort of like passive feats. Turn it from an active spell ability into a passive, persistent one. As long as you have the spell in your "book" you have the proficiencies.

When a Wizard puts it in his/her book, the effect takes place. When the Bard or Sorcerer selects it as one of their spells, the effect kicks in. Just like a proficiency granting weapon or mobility robe grants the feats, so would having the spell in one of your slots.

If this isn't a new idea, I apologize. I've searched the forums for a work around to the issue and I didn't see anything about a fix like this being suggested to Turbine.

Feedback/tweaks/enlightenment appreciated!
How about instead of being passive it is toggleable? Whenever it is activated you receive a continuous sp deduction (much like tavern regen, but in the negative sp direction).

edit - I'm not sure that would address the issue as you laid it out. It would still spam all the proficiencies when activated/deactivated.

Ninetoes
02-25-2010, 08:38 PM
Edit: Nevermind, Krud, I see you caught the flaw in your logic. Good catch :)

Ninetoes
02-25-2010, 08:41 PM
This is where you say...


'if you got them boys, drink them, it's going to be a long night'

I was kind of hoping they weren't using a DB. Because...

Let's assume they are using DB2. It should be easy to use SQL to work with the DB. It should be an easy matter to update/edit the tables to add the required fields.

The fact it hasn't been done suggests a number of things are possible:

1) This is low priority
2) The coding is such it is much more complex then thought
3) This isn't cost effective to fix atm


Well, if they need any help I am sure we can send some their way :)

Without knowing anything about the infrastructure, DB Schema, or staffing, I'd say 1.) is the most likely culprit.

It's a poor, laggy mechanic that can be worked around in more than a few ways (see my a-hole post for more info), and hence hasn't gotten much attention. I'd say the best option to fix it is simply to file a bunch of bug reports. Pretty much the only way it will get visibility outside some random thread, eh?

Inspire
02-25-2010, 08:59 PM
I suggested this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=222852) as a change to Master's Touch a while ago, is that something you could agree with?

Salsa
02-25-2010, 09:01 PM
One can always hope their Devs sometimes frequent the forums and might get an Eureka moment from reading our musings.

Ninetoes
02-25-2010, 09:09 PM
One can always hope their Devs sometimes frequent the forums and might get an Eureka moment from reading our musings.

There is forum feedback to development, it's been done in the past. That's one of the points to having a suggestion forum :)

Ninetoes
02-25-2010, 09:12 PM
I suggested this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=222852) as a change to Master's Touch a while ago, is that something you could agree with?

Oh FFS. Salsa the Codemonkey and I totally overlooked this as a possibility. This is FAR easier than any of the other suggestions. Well done, sir. Well done indeed.

Salsa, we need to go outside and get some air. This is one of those "staring at the View Source page for to long" scenarios.

Anderei
02-26-2010, 03:06 AM
Current implementation was likely the easiest to code, but as people say, very many are unhappy about it, because of the heavy lag it invovles.

There is no need to change mechanics, just implement it better.

Braed
02-26-2010, 06:43 AM
Wow, good discussion going here. You're all talking so far over my head I feel like I should be drawing pictures on caves in order to communicate. The only bad thing to come from this so far is I've learned Paris and Nicole apparently AREN'T friends...

Braed
02-26-2010, 06:47 AM
I suggested this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=222852) as a change to Master's Touch a while ago, is that something you could agree with?

So it would work like Resist Energy? You cast it, then select which icon you want or you can drag the icon to your hotbar and just use it from there? I like that idea a lot especially since, as it has been pointed out, it doesn't introduce anything new to the game from a mechanic standpoint. Sorry I didn't see your thread before.

blitzschlag
02-26-2010, 06:49 AM
nother way would be to split up ma like resist energy is splitted up. if you are using masters touch you most likely use a specific weapon. so just cast masters touch - greataxe on you. one weapon, no lag.

Spookyaction
02-26-2010, 07:00 AM
First off something needs to be done about this spell. I think the op's suggestion is fine. I usually dont have to cast it more then 1 time per shrine in a quest. And the last time i paid attention having it dispelled does not remove the effect, it removes the icon for the spell but you will not get the -4 penalty. You have to die or shrine for it to be removed. So if taking the spell removed 10 sp from your point total until you swapped it out, that seems pretty balanced to me.

Ninetoes
02-26-2010, 12:46 PM
First off something needs to be done about this spell. I think the op's suggestion is fine. I usually dont have to cast it more then 1 time per shrine in a quest. And the last time i paid attention having it dispelled does not remove the effect, it removes the icon for the spell but you will not get the -4 penalty. You have to die or shrine for it to be removed. So if taking the spell removed 10 sp from your point total until you swapped it out, that seems pretty balanced to me.

Except that, again, it's completely changing a mechanic to something that doesn't exist at all in the game.

The idea to change it to a box a la resist energy is feasible, but would require a scrollable (and annoying) box of weapon proficiencies to choose from.

So far, the best idea is Inspire's, which is to be able to pull that specific weapon proficiency into a hotbar slot and use only the ones you need.

I would actually propose an even simpler idea, which is to simply change the spell to affect the weapon that the caster has equipped at the time.While this does deviate from the design of the pnp spell, it at worst only has to add one proficiency to the caster's feat list, thereby bypassing the potential mess of adding a bunch of logic statements to an already convoluted mess of code. Inspire's idea is probably easier to implement, and both would avoid the nasty bug which currently exists.

Salsa
02-26-2010, 03:55 PM
I have been thinking on this, I agree Inspire's is the best option for a quick fix. It isn't as robust as I would like, and as pointed out you will have to deal with a gosh awful drop menu, however, it does have a number benefits:

1) It should fit in easily in the existing code
2) It should reduce the lag
3) Since you can hot bar various weapon choices it would still have some flexibility
4) It keeps to already formulated methodologies


The one concern I has is this.

Currently you:

1) activate the spell
2) feats are granted
3) spell ends
3) feats are removed


Now the question I have is:

Exactly how does the feat adding and being removed work? Are the new feats stored separately from the normal feats? Does it check for exiting feats somehow?

The current system might store everything together (so in if you already had one martial feat for say longsword you would have it twice as an elf wizard) then it just removes everything it added when it ends.

If so this may cause a problem with the proposal as is. The fix could be as simple as adding a variable attached to the spell that keeps track of which feat is granted.


Now if the feats are stored separately it should be simple. It is just something to keep in mind.