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Valindria
02-22-2010, 04:58 PM
I propose tier II gives a feat related to the bards bath. I propose each of the unique songs improved.


Spellsinger II: Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills. You gain the Mental Toughness Feat (improved if MT has already been taken). You gain Improved Spellsong Trance song to further reduce Spell Point costs (20% total).

Spellsinger III: Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills. You gain the Greater Spellsong Trance song to improve your party's spell DCs (+2 total) and further reduce Spell Point costs (25% total).


Virtuoso II: Your life on the road has allowed you to perform in many different areas. You gain the Force of Personality feat. Your playing skill has increased as well (+2 to perform). You gain Improved Enthrallment. Improved Enthrallment has a chance to add the effect "Flesh to Stone" as targets can do nothing but watch you play.

Virtuoso III: You are the true master of musical instruments. You gain 2 extra uses of Bardic Music per rest. You gain greater enthrallment which has a chance to destroy enemies with your face melting solos. Your enemies in the enthrallment range must save or be destroyed (similar to Wail of the Banshee). Enemies that save may still become stoned as per Improved Enthrallment or just plain enthralled.


Warchanter II: Your studies into war have hardened you. You gain the Toughness feat (stacks if you already have the feat ). You also gain the Improved Ironskin Chant song, which improves the entire party's Damage Reduction to 7/-.

Warchanter III: Your studies into war have given you an advantage with your weapon specialization. You gain +1 hit and +2 damage with any item weapon class you have focused in (WF is prereq of Warchanter I). You also gain the Greater Ironskin Chant song, which improves the entire party's Damage Reduction to 10/-. You ability to rally allies in battle is unparalleled, Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +1 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves.

Edit: Tier II requires 12 levels of Bard, Tier II requires 18 levels of bard. Each Tier requires the previous one (must have I to get II, must have II to get III).

Edit 2: Changed DR values to 7 and 10.

Symar-FangofLloth
02-22-2010, 05:05 PM
I'd like to see the third tier be equal to the second tier upgrade on both Spellsinger and Warchanter, with the second tier being a different effect. Not sure what though.

As far as Virtuoso 3, with that thread where someone wanted a sonic save or die for bards, I was thinking that same thing as what you posted. Spend a song, cast Wail.

Freeman
02-22-2010, 05:09 PM
Warchanter III: Your studies into war have given you an advantage with your weapon specialization. You gain +1 hit and +2 damage with any item weapon class you have focused in (WF is prereq of Warchanter I). You also gain the Greater Ironskin Chant song, which improves the entire party's Damage Reduction to 15/-. You ability to rally allies in battle is unparalleled, Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +1 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves.

DR 15/- is way too powerful for a group-wide buff, and it would also make several class abilities meaningless.(Such as barbarian and FvS DR) Further increasing the attack and damage bonus from a Warchanter's Inspire Courage would only further regulate the other PrEs to unwanted status. Either give Warchanters new melee songs(Look at the actual prestige class for ideas, the one that increases BAB would be the most promising) or give them personal enhancements that don't affect the rest of the party.

As for Spellsingers, I think they should receive something to help their personal DCs on bard spells more than worrying about buffing the party. Bards are already the best buffers in the game, so they could really use something that buffs them for a change.

Valindria
02-22-2010, 05:24 PM
DR 15/- is way too powerful for a group-wide buff, and it would also make several class abilities meaningless.(Such as barbarian and FvS DR) Further increasing the attack and damage bonus from a Warchanter's Inspire Courage would only further regulate the other PrEs to unwanted status. Either give Warchanters new melee songs(Look at the actual prestige class for ideas, the one that increases BAB would be the most promising) or give them personal enhancements that don't affect the rest of the party.

As for Spellsingers, I think they should receive something to help their personal DCs on bard spells more than worrying about buffing the party. Bards are already the best buffers in the game, so they could really use something that buffs them for a change.

I just tried to improve the existing song. If 15/- is two powerful what would you suggest? I actually added the increase to inspire courage in an edit. My original thought was just bumping the bards to hit and damage. After I read over the other proposed changes I felt like the WC's III might need a little more.

The basic idea is tier II gives a free feat. WC gets a health boost, SS gets a SP boost, and Virt gets something in between. I picked FoP cause I thought it fit in the the play style.

Freeman
02-22-2010, 05:29 PM
I liked this suggestion for Warchanters: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2377586&postcount=13
The Inspire Legion song's PnP description is here, but it could easily be tweaked for DDO: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1976173&postcount=6

Symar-FangofLloth
02-22-2010, 06:29 PM
How about this?
I can't think of an ability for Spellsinger 2. And I included the first tiers so people can see what they do.


Spellsinger I: (included for comparison) Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant yourself and all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell point costs.

Spellsinger II: Your studies into magic have granted you an additional +1 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, for a +3 total bonus. You gain 50 additional SP (150 total).

Spellsinger III: Your studies into magic have granted you an additional +1 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, for a +4 total bonus. You gain 50 additional SP (200 total). You gain the Greater Spellsong Trance song to improve your party's spell DCs (+2 total) and further reduce Spell Point costs (15% total).


Virtuoso I: (Included for comparison) Your studies into song have granted you a +2 bonus to your Diplomacy, Listen, and Perform skills, 3 extra uses of Bardic Music per rest, and the ability to extend the duration of your beneficial songs by an additional 10%. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to enthrall multiple enemies, fascinating them and inflicting a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves even if the fascination is broken.

Virtuoso II: You gain an additional +1 to Diplomacy, Listen, and Perform skills (+3 total), and one more use of Bardic Music. You gain Improved Enthrall is improved, also penalizing enemies with a -2 AC.

Virtuoso III: You are the true master of musical instruments. You gain an additional +1 to Diplomacy, Listen, and Perform skills (+4 total), and one more use of Bardic Music (+5 total). You gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to mimic the Wail of the Banshee spell. (Save DC based off of Charisma, and as if an 8th level spell.)


Warchanter I: (Included for comparison) Your studies into war have granted you a +2 bonus to your Intimidate skill. Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves. If you possess the Barbarian Rage ability, you gain +1 use per rest. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies damage reduction 5/-.

Warchanter II: Your studies into war have hardened you. You gain an additional +2 to Intimidate (+4 total). You also gain the Toughness feat (stacks if you already have the feat ). If you possess Barbarian Rage, you gain an additional +1 use per rest.

Warchanter III: Your studies into war have given you an advantage with your weapon specialization. You gain +1 hit and +2 damage with a weapon with which you already have Weapon Focus. You gain an additional +2 to Intimidate (+6 total). If you possess Barbarian Rage, you gain an additional +1 use per rest (+3 total).

Angelus_dead
02-22-2010, 06:55 PM
I propose tier II gives a feat related to the bards bath. I propose each of the unique songs improved.
Here are some suggestions on that subject I made more than a year ago.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168824

Symar-FangofLloth
02-22-2010, 09:06 PM
Here are some suggestions on that subject I made more than a year ago.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168824

Those are some neat ideas too.

Valindria
02-23-2010, 10:33 AM
Some interesting ideas all around.

I think all bards should be able to spend AP to get something like song stacking where you play 1 time but gives the effects of inspire courage, inspire greatness, etc. Maybe have a place to set it up. I Know I would like to just play one song (have it take 3 away from my total) and give the iron skin, courage, and greatness effects.

I like the idea of Virtuoso having the enthrall have a chance to do multiple things. So instead of just spending a song to cast wail, you sing and the enemy 1st has to save for death, then has to save for flesh to stone, then has to save for enthrall.

Edit: Inspired by some of the suggestions others had said:

Warchanter III: Your studies into war have given you an advantage with your weapon specialization. You gain full Base Attack Bonus for all Bard levels you possess with any weapon type you have focused in. Maybe something like 6 AP, Requires Bard level 18, Warchanter II and Feat Improved Critical.

Similar to:
"Flurry of Blows (passive): When a monk is either unarmed or is wielding only monk weapons (Kama, Shuriken, Quarterstaff), the monk is treated as if they had a full Base Attack Bonus for all monk levels they possess rather than a 3/4 Base Attack Bonus. "

Dendrix
02-23-2010, 11:11 AM
Bards are all about being generalists

Tier 2: Gain one of Warchanter, Spellsinger or Virtuoso - you may only choose one you do not have. Requires Tier 1 in Warchanter, Spellsinger or Virtuoso. Cost 2 pts

Tier 3: Gain one of Warchanter, Spellsinger or Virtuoso - you may only choose the one you do not have. Requires Tier 1 in two of Warchanter, Spellsinger or Virtuoso. Cost 1 pts

The reason the cost goes down is these aren't in your core area (1st choice) - they expand what you can do

Crystalizer
03-25-2010, 11:06 AM
Bards are all about being generalists

Tier 2: Gain one of Warchanter, Spellsinger or Virtuoso - you may only choose one you do not have. Requires Tier 1 in Warchanter, Spellsinger or Virtuoso. Cost 2 pts

Tier 3: Gain one of Warchanter, Spellsinger or Virtuoso - you may only choose the one you do not have. Requires Tier 1 in two of Warchanter, Spellsinger or Virtuoso. Cost 1 pts

The reason the cost goes down is these aren't in your core area (1st choice) - they expand what you can doreally this is one of the suggestions i like the most, but that would break bards specialization and am not sure that linearizing bards so much would be a good idea for the game. or rather maybe offering that plus keeping specializations 2 and 3. sure my bard would very much like spellsinger1/warchanter1, since he is completely built for versatility.

what i like much also is the idea of granting some free feat : empower healing for spellsinger 2 or 3, toughness for warchanter 2 or 3, and performing focus for virtuoso 2 or 3, since globally bards lack feats much, its a fact.

Valindria
05-11-2010, 10:07 AM
With the new monk PrEs coming out maybe Bards will get some soon.

WeaselKing
05-11-2010, 10:10 AM
I propose tier II gives a feat related to the bards bath. I propose each of the unique songs improved.


Spellsinger II: Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills. You gain the Mental Toughness Feat (improved if MT has already been taken). You gain Improved Spellsong Trance song to further reduce Spell Point costs (20% total).

Spellsinger III: Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills. You gain the Greater Spellsong Trance song to improve your party's spell DCs (+2 total) and further reduce Spell Point costs (25% total).


Virtuoso II: Your life on the road has allowed you to perform in many different areas. You gain the Force of Personality feat. Your playing skill has increased as well (+2 to perform). You gain Improved Enthrallment. Improved Enthrallment has a chance to add the effect "Flesh to Stone" as targets can do nothing but watch you play.

Virtuoso III: You are the true master of musical instruments. You gain 2 extra uses of Bardic Music per rest. You gain greater enthrallment which has a chance to destroy enemies with your face melting solos. Your enemies in the enthrallment range must save or be destroyed (similar to Wail of the Banshee). Enemies that save may still become stoned as per Improved Enthrallment or just plain enthralled.


Warchanter II: Your studies into war have hardened you. You gain the Toughness feat (stacks if you already have the feat ). You also gain the Improved Ironskin Chant song, which improves the entire party's Damage Reduction to 7/-.

Warchanter III: Your studies into war have given you an advantage with your weapon specialization. You gain +1 hit and +2 damage with any item weapon class you have focused in (WF is prereq of Warchanter I). You also gain the Greater Ironskin Chant song, which improves the entire party's Damage Reduction to 10/-. You ability to rally allies in battle is unparalleled, Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +1 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves.

Edit: Tier II requires 12 levels of Bard, Tier II requires 18 levels of bard. Each Tier requires the previous one (must have I to get II, must have II to get III).

Edit 2: Changed DR values to 7 and 10.

Personally I would like to see Warchanter II and III increase the inspire courage damage, and I would not be surprised if weapon specialization becomes a requirement for Warchanter III.

Cyr
05-11-2010, 10:13 AM
Great ideas OP. I wouldn't mind if Eladrin just copy pasted these as the PrE's.

Angelus_dead
05-11-2010, 11:19 AM
I would not be surprised if weapon specialization becomes a requirement for Warchanter III.
That would be impossible until the level cap goes up to 22, because Weapon Spec requires Fighter4 and Warchanter3 requires Bard18.

WeaselKing
05-11-2010, 11:28 AM
That would be impossible until the level cap goes up to 22, because Weapon Spec requires Fighter4 and Warchanter3 requires Bard18.

I'm sorry I was thinking of Greater Weapon Focus, just not typing it.

Valindria
05-11-2010, 01:21 PM
I'm sorry I was thinking of Greater Weapon Focus, just not typing it.

Weapon Focus is the only one that doesn't require fighter. http://ddowiki.com/page/Feats

I think it would be cool if it was something like:

Warchanter III: Your studies into war have given you an advantage with your weapon focus. You gain full Base Attack Bonus for all Bard levels you possess with any weapon type you have focused in. You also gain the Greater Ironskin Chant song, which improves the entire party's Damage Reduction to 10/-. Requires Bard level 18, Warchanter II and Feat Improved Critical.

WeaselKing
05-11-2010, 01:37 PM
Weapon Focus is the only one that doesn't require fighter. http://ddowiki.com/page/Feats

I think it would be cool if it was something like:

Warchanter III: Your studies into war have given you an advantage with your weapon focus. You gain full Base Attack Bonus for all Bard levels you possess with any weapon type you have focused in. You also gain the Greater Ironskin Chant song, which improves the entire party's Damage Reduction to 10/-. Requires Bard level 18, Warchanter II and Feat Improved Critical.

Really? Well shift, I am just going to exit this thread and never come back.

Valindria
05-19-2010, 05:36 PM
Virtuoso suggestions:
- fix Enthrall to work with the bard songs (Suggestion) for starters
- fix Enthrall to mez *all* targets capable of being mezzed (i.e. regular + MoTD + MoTM if applicable).

Spellsinger suggestions:
- introduce more DD spells other than Shout and Shout, Greater. Give spellsingers something to do with their SP other than mez and heal, and a reason to use the sonic lore / resonance bonuses Turbine insists on placing on Bard gear (i.e. Mad Lute). NWN2 had a good one they implemented which was essentially an improved Soundburst minus the stun portion, but with improved dice (1d6 per caster lvl; max 15d6).

Overall Bard enhancements:
- reduce cost of Inspired Attack, and introduce a 4th tier for both Attack and Damage. Attack IV would be at 18; Damage IV would be at 17.

PrE suggestions
- Virtuoso: introduce new debuffing songs that have similar DC resists to enthrall. These could include songs that Slows enemies (as per the spell), Curses them (as per the spell), or various other options.

- Warchanter: improve their inspire courage chants just a bit further, but not too much. +1 hit / +2 dmg per tier would be too powerful. Could also include improvements to DR chant (7/- at tier II, 10/- at tier III) or even a song similar to NWN2's legionnaire's march (acts as an AoE Divine Power minus the str boost).

- Spellsinger: improve spell DCs further, and perhaps even add an SP-regen portion to their spellsong trance at tier III.

I liked some of the ideas posted above so I moved them to this thread. Also it made me think of this about a spell point song. What about a SS skill similar to Clerics DV?

Soothing Melody - Use a song to grant Spell points back to a user, or maybe spell points/heal over time. Imagine the song on you heals similar to the water in Shroud.

kruggar
05-20-2010, 10:04 AM
soe sugestions are nice other too powerfull but heres my 2cents

virtuoso can hold the attention fo the crowd so a mass hold effect would be better then a mass flesh to stone

Valindria
05-20-2010, 10:40 AM
soe sugestions are nice other too powerfull but heres my 2cents


I am not sue what you mean.



virtuoso can hold the attention fo the crowd so a mass hold effect would be better then a mass flesh to stone

Sure.

Flesh to Stone is level 6
Mass Hold Person is level 7
Mass Hold Monster is level 9

Wizards get level 6 spells at level 11, level 7 at 13, and level 9 at 17. Add 1 level for Sorcs (12, 14, 18)

So for it to balance with 12 bard/18 bard (for PrE 2 and 3) maybe it could be something like:

Virt II - Improved Entrall has a chance to cast Mass Hold Person.
Virt III - Greater Entrall has a chance to cast Mass Hold Monsters

Song of Stone - Expend a use of your song to cast Flesh to Stone. Requires Bard level 12, some bard stuff or Virt II
Song of Death - Expend a use of your song to cast wail of the banshee. Requires a bunch of bard stuff (or virt III)and level 18.

jkm
05-20-2010, 10:58 AM
1 thing i would like to see added to bards is something that worked really well in pirates of the burning sea -> having a self buff portion added when you do a group buff.

for example, ironskin chant

party -> 5 -/- DR

self -> 5 -/- DR, full BaB

the reasoning for this is simple, 1 bard helps the party, but a second bard isn't adding anything extra.

a second thing, that i keep crusading for, is more diversity in the pathing. by having more abilities at each tier, you reduce the chance of overlap of buffs outside of inspire courage.

Valindria
05-25-2010, 05:10 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=250693

While this is a monk PrE one thing of note is that they gain a feat (Improved Crit: Short Swords). The good news is a PrE granting feats. I think it sets the ground work for Bard PrE II and IIIs to be possible to add feats (martial weapon prof, toughness, mental toughness, force of personality) like some of them mentioned here.

Chaosprism
05-26-2010, 06:39 AM
I'd still like to see new songs written for the old ironskin song, virtuoso enthrallment, spellsinger discount song.


More audio variety is needed with the bard songs :)

Valindria
07-29-2010, 10:11 AM
There was some talk about updated bards in the suggestion area so I thought I would bring this one to the top for discussion.

Valindria
08-30-2010, 11:18 AM
I would like to see Inspire Greatness Improve with bard levels/Tiers

Level 1: The ally gets a +2 attack roll competence bonus, a +1 fortitude save competence bonus, and 2 temporary hit dice. (Requires x perform, Bard level 9)

Level 2: Fortitude save increased, temp HD improve, Allies gain a 2.5% chance to Double Strike, You gain a 5% chance.
(Requires x perform,Bard level 15)

level 3: The ally gets a +3 attack roll competence bonus, allies gain 5% chance to Double strike, you gain a 10% chance.
(Requires x perform, Bard level 19)

This would still help those that have DS and give +1 to hit to those with tumbleweed/etc

Valindria
09-08-2010, 10:28 AM
Another idea for SS is to increase damage and crit chance for sonic spells per tier.

Symar-FangofLloth
09-08-2010, 11:16 AM
Another idea for SS is to increase damage and crit chance for sonic spells per tier.

It'd need to be like, +300% per tier to make it worthwhile as a damage spell.

bartosy
09-08-2010, 03:29 PM
Give virtuosos better debuffing songs with a will save thats equal to there perform dc. What's the point of having a 70 perform when youre saves on songs are the same as a lvl 20 warchanter with 40 perform.. make the perform scale on the songs already and make virtuosos feel like a good choice again they got shafted long enough with the prestige enh already.

virtuoso II Enthrall II debuffs mobs with -4 to will saves and -4 to atk also cast dispell magic on any mobs thats hit by it.

Virtuoso III

ability : stairway to heaven

You whip out a fender stratocaster and start to play stairway to heaven at wich point beams of light surround you and every life form around you will be snuffed out by a will save wail of the banshee thats equal to your perform skill.. will be around 60~90 or so.. this ability is the epitome of awesomeness and will deplete all your remaining songs you had.

Spellsingers need some more loving on there dc sp spell 10% is ok making it scale to 20% and 30% is a bit overpowered imo. It would be nice if spellsinger II and III got some special kind of song that raises spell pen and

spellsinger III

Ability : summon waterworks pro's

Wich gives acces to a new ability to spend a song on a special ability that raises 3 random people that died in the waterworks that day at your side one healing class one fighter class and 1 mage class that will assist you on healing fighting and casting. They are cr5 mobs and augment summoning works on them.

warchanter 3

Ability : army of the vanquished

acces to a special song that you can use once in every instance that rallies an undead army at your side wich equals the amount of killed enemies in the quest you did this ability will cost 10 songs

Chaosprism
09-10-2010, 03:07 PM
Virtuoso's with curse songs that can deal damage over time to everything that heard the music.
Song of pain: Like symbol of pain, all enemies that hear it are affected as if symbol of pain went off under them.
Song of discord that "confuses" opponents so they run in fear, act normally , charmed for a short period, hold hands to head cowering stunned.


Spellsingers with a song that means all that heard it regenerates spellpoints 1 per 20 seconds. (overpowered maybe?)

Warchanter with song that demoralises the enemy, giving them negatives to hit etc.