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Draggamor
02-22-2010, 04:34 AM
Why there is no Rogue and Ranger hirelings?

The fact that there are no hirelings of these types, often force players to multiclass to these classes, specially the rogue. And we all know that by multiclassing, we can never see the true power a single class character.

Why there are no multiclass hirelings?

Why we have to be confined to use one hireling only?

Hirelings could be controlled by the character's charisma, according to its modifier. With 0 or less modifier, 1 maximum hireling, with +1 modifier 2 maximum hirelings and so on. Then the maximum hireling amount should be the sum of their levels; for example a character of level 7 with a charisma modifier of +1 could control 1 hireling of level 3 and another of level 4. Of course this would be a basic rule for normal contracts, gold contracts should remain as it is, surpassing this rule.

vettkinn
02-22-2010, 05:08 AM
Why there is no Rogue and Ranger hirelings?
Why we have to be confined to use one hireling only?


You can have more than one comrade, just get em gold version contracts.


Why there is no Rogue and Ranger hirelings?
Why there is no Rogue and Ranger hirelings?


To force people to party with others of course. If you can't afford to sacrifice some levels for multiclassing then you have to party with others.

Draggamor
02-22-2010, 05:20 AM
You can have more than one comrade, just get em gold version contracts.



To force people to party with others of course. If you can't afford to sacrifice some levels for multiclassing then you have to party with others.

I know that is the way it is, I already knew those answers. I probably forgot to mention that these questions were meant and asked for the people who like to solo, or do not like to party, or have issues with some personalities.

I have been partying a lot, and have met a wide range of personalities, and i'm sure you always have found someone who you didn't like and vice-versa.

Those options if available, would be meant for those who like to solo.

Bogenbroom
02-22-2010, 09:06 AM
On rogues, I believe it has to do with the AI involved in making a hireling rogue viable. Yeah, I am sure they could make a complete robot that would search when you told him and disable when you told him, but they want something that was at least vaguely autonomous. And, even if they could get that coding down, what about the times when you don't want them to disable a trap... I imagine a rogue would be very hard.

On rangers... well, there are significant variations in the different ranger types. I am sure they could make a tempest ranger, no problem... AI would be the same as for any other melee. But an archer type? Man would *those* **** people off if they were not just right.

At least, with the latter, the Pale Master's archer skellies *may* be a first pass at a ranged npc.

Twiggs_Woody
02-23-2010, 01:02 PM
There is no way hirelings can replace a good group... there should be rogue and ranger hirelings... in fact all classes should be a hireling.

/signed

PoSeiDoN78
02-23-2010, 03:31 PM
I know that is the way it is, I already knew those answers. I probably forgot to mention that these questions were meant and asked for the people who like to solo, or do not like to party, or have issues with some personalities.

I have been partying a lot, and have met a wide range of personalities, and i'm sure you always have found someone who you didn't like and vice-versa.

Those options if available, would be meant for those who like to solo.

Not to mention those of us who love DDO but have at most an hour, but usually more like 20 to 30 mins at a time to play. Good luck finding a party and completing a quest that actually requires a party in 20 or 30 mins.

No one should be forced, as it was so eloquently put, to play in a way they don't want.

gavagai
02-23-2010, 03:57 PM
Not to mention those of us who love DDO but have at most an hour, but usually more like 20 to 30 mins at a time to play. Good luck finding a party and completing a quest that actually requires a party in 20 or 30 mins.

No one should be forced, as it was so eloquently put, to play in a way they don't want.

No-one is "forced" to play the game differently, though. There aren't many solo-friendly quests that require a rogue to complete. IME, most folk who feel "forced" to splash just want some extra loot in a chest behind a locked door.

The reason why rogue hirelings haven't been available: Unlike other hirelings, a rogue gives you more xp from disarming traps, and more loot through Open Locks. These were primary benefits for playing a rogue, or at least team up with one. No other hireling "negated" the benefit of playing a class in the same way. There's no benefit to having two rogues in a party, by this way of thinking

So rogue hirelings threatened to make rogue characters obsolete. Unlike healers/buffers/tanks/DPSers, trapsmithing is highly situational. Add the hirelings and rogues become a novelty class.

Nowadays, it seems many more rogues accept that melee comes first and trapmonkeying is boring. So maybe the outcry wouldn't be as bad if Turbine introduced rogues.

But if they did, I'd want to see the bonus xp taken away for disarming traps. Kinda cheesy getting XP for bringing a kind of rogue, no?

PoSeiDoN78
02-23-2010, 04:04 PM
But if they did, I'd want to see the bonus xp taken away for disarming traps. Kinda cheesy getting XP for bringing a kind of rogue, no?

I agree there. You should not receive xp bonuses for something a henchman does. Wether its trap disarming or sending 5 barbarians to kill everything while you watch.

Draggamor
02-24-2010, 12:10 AM
I agree there. You should not receive xp bonuses for something a henchman does. Wether its trap disarming or sending 5 barbarians to kill everything while you watch.

Totally agree here, and with some other answer above. There should be hirelings of all classes, and also multiclass, but no gaining XP from what they do. It would surely be an excelent way of making a player choose between the easy company of a hireling, or a more profitable company of a human player. :)

PoSeiDoN78
02-26-2010, 01:37 PM
On rogues, I believe it has to do with the AI involved in making a hireling rogue viable. Yeah, I am sure they could make a complete robot that would search when you told him and disable when you told him, but they want something that was at least vaguely autonomous. And, even if they could get that coding down, what about the times when you don't want them to disable a trap... I imagine a rogue would be very hard.


This could be acomplished pretty easily. Every char has spot. If the rogues spots something, you get a pithy response (Oy, do you feel a draft), and if not in combat he searches. If he find something you get another pithy response (Watch out for that pressure plate!), and the control box/door becomes visible. He would then only disable/open lock when told through the UI. So really, all that is necessary is adding the auto-search code on a successfull spot check.

HeeHaw
02-26-2010, 01:52 PM
Totally agree here, and with some other answer above. There should be hirelings of all classes, and also multiclass, but no gaining XP from what they do. It would surely be an excelent way of making a player choose between the easy company of a hireling, or a more profitable company of a human player. :)

So if I bring a Cleric hireling to heal me, and he happens to get the killing blow on the optional XP boss, I shouldn't get the XP?

Or if he kills one of the 100 hobgoblins needed for an optional XP bonus, no XP for me?

Be careful what you ask for.

There's already a penalty for bringing a hireling: there's a gold/TP cost involved. Real players are free.

Balasarius
02-26-2010, 01:58 PM
But if they did, I'd want to see the bonus xp taken away for disarming traps. Kinda cheesy getting XP for bringing a kind of rogue, no?

That's fine. But the game still needs rogue henchmen -- or, an intelligent DM that reduces the damage and / or frequency of traps and locked doors in a dungeon. (This is not likely to happen.)

I roll with a small group of friends. Sometimes, no one wants to play the rogue. Also - we're generally pretty good at this game, at least for dungeons we know. We want to play everything on Hard and Elite. Without a rogue, this just isn't an option. The traps are too deadly. Sometimes critical shrines are behind locked doors (I'm looking at you, Tear of Dhakaan). Rogues are required on Hard and Elite difficulties.

No class should ever be required.

Euadonis
02-26-2010, 09:13 PM
I agree there. You should not receive xp bonuses for something a henchman does. Wether its trap disarming or sending 5 barbarians to kill everything while you watch.

I disagree with this. I'd be TWEAKED if I no longer got an Onslaught bonus because my hireling (or Summoned MOnster) killed a few pets.

Of course, I can understand no bonus from disarmed traps for Rogue hirelings.

I do also wish you could command your hireling to search. I mean, if he has a higher spot, and they supposed to be 'people', why can't they find that hidden door? They have eyes!

Draggamor
02-27-2010, 10:06 AM
So if I bring a Cleric hireling to heal me, and he happens to get the killing blow on the optional XP boss, I shouldn't get the XP?

Or if he kills one of the 100 hobgoblins needed for an optional XP bonus, no XP for me?

Be careful what you ask for.

There's already a penalty for bringing a hireling: there's a gold/TP cost involved. Real players are free.

You got a point here :)

But what I really meant was: Why favor the rogue class, making it more valuable than others? Isn't this supposed to be even for all classes?

Wasafah
02-28-2010, 07:55 PM
What if you could extend an existing hirelings contract by just pay them the going rate (their cost) and they won't go poof at the end of the hour. Their clock would keep on ticking but you wouldn't have to run back to the market to grab one should you run short.

I also like the idea of charisma modifying something with the hirelings. I think I'd like to see maybe at most +2 hirelings otherwise, paladins and the like will run around with robot groups. Think a healer is hard to find now?! I'd personally thought the "quality" of the hireling could be impacted by the Cha. Maybe make the AI more or less "intuitive" depending on quality. (i.e. heal when you really need to be healed etc etc)

On the whole rogue hireling thing...I like the balance turbine has struck. Let's face it, almost anyone can solo if you bring a healer. The price you pay is you might eat a trap or two in the face. Want to run elite? Well then you might want to get a real party...kind of the point. "Elite" is hard and meant to be a challenge for a group. You should get owned soloing an elite.

Falco_Easts
02-28-2010, 08:58 PM
I agree there. You should not receive xp bonuses for something a henchman does. Wether its trap disarming or sending 5 barbarians to kill everything while you watch.

Or the no death bonus for having a cleric hireling?

PoSeiDoN78
03-01-2010, 08:25 AM
On the whole rogue hireling thing...I like the balance turbine has struck. Let's face it, almost anyone can solo if you bring a healer. The price you pay is you might eat a trap or two in the face. Want to run elite? Well then you might want to get a real party...kind of the point. "Elite" is hard and meant to be a challenge for a group. You should get owned soloing an elite.

And what of people who can't find parties due to the amount of time they have available to play, or the character they are playing is not one that many parties want to play with. Should they be forced to miss out. When I do find the odd day that I can play for over an hour, I look for a party, but 90% of the time I have only 20 mins or so at a time to play. I don't have time to waste looking for people to play with.


Or the no death bonus for having a cleric hireling?

No death bonus has nothing to do with how you did not die. (Sounds silly to say don't it) If you don't die, you get the points. Slayer on the other hand, if you or your summoned pet (that is the same as if you swung the sword..it was your spell after all) kill something it counts. If a hireling does, well thats a horse of a different color. Now I could see still getting the xp, but reducing the amount by a factor based on the number of henchmen you have, ie "sharing them" with your henchmen. As a solo player, I don't mind getting less xp for not partying, but not being able to play certain parts of the game is not very cool.

Falco_Easts
03-01-2010, 08:54 PM
No death bonus has nothing to do with how you did not die. (Sounds silly to say don't it) If you don't die, you get the points. Slayer on the other hand, if you or your summoned pet (that is the same as if you swung the sword..it was your spell after all) kill something it counts. If a hireling does, well thats a horse of a different color. Now I could see still getting the xp, but reducing the amount by a factor based on the number of henchmen you have, ie "sharing them" with your henchmen. As a solo player, I don't mind getting less xp for not partying, but not being able to play certain parts of the game is not very cool.

Ahh but that is like saying conquest bonus has nothing to do with who gets the kills? In the end if the party kills enough mobs it gets + 25% regardless of who swung the blade.
In a quest you get the 10% for not dieing regardless of who does the healing/not dieing.

They amount to the same thing.

I don't think you could nerf one without the other.

I am not a fan of nerfing XP because you had a henchman but if you are going to go half way you should go all the way.

PoSeiDoN78
03-02-2010, 10:28 AM
I don't party so I assumed that what a party of 4 got was more than what I got. Meaning, if I get 1000xp a party of 4 got 4000xp to split. In that senario you are spliting the bonus xp 4 ways, which 1000 each for contributing to each item.

If I bring a henchman I still get 1000 even though all calculations were based on 1 guy....me. That being the case, I thought that it would be prudent to "share" at least the bonus xp that were earned by the henchman' s direct action, i.e. slayer, but not passively, i.e. me not dying.

If my assumptions are wrong, then I would have to re-think my position on xp slightly.

Bogenbroom
03-02-2010, 12:50 PM
I don't party so I assumed that what a party of 4 got was more than what I got. Meaning, if I get 1000xp a party of 4 got 4000xp to split. In that senario you are spliting the bonus xp 4 ways, which 1000 each for contributing to each item.

If I bring a henchman I still get 1000 even though all calculations were based on 1 guy....me. That being the case, I thought that it would be prudent to "share" at least the bonus xp that were earned by the henchman' s direct action, i.e. slayer, but not passively, i.e. me not dying.

If my assumptions are wrong, then I would have to re-think my position on xp slightly.

I am not even sure I am following your assumption, but XP does not take get divided in any way. The *only* way other party members effect your XP are A) Power-leveling restrictions, and B) XP bonus/penalty is determined by looking a the highest level character in the party.

PoSeiDoN78
03-02-2010, 02:44 PM
Well that is a horse of a different color. If I get the get the same amount of xp wether I find the traps or go find some other player to do it, then I should get that same amount if I spend gold/TP for a hireling. I am not paying for the xp, just for the convenience of playing now, instead of having to spend time to find a party.

Falco_Easts
03-02-2010, 07:38 PM
I don't party so I assumed that what a party of 4 got was more than what I got. Meaning, if I get 1000xp a party of 4 got 4000xp to split. In that senario you are spliting the bonus xp 4 ways, which 1000 each for contributing to each item.

If I bring a henchman I still get 1000 even though all calculations were based on 1 guy....me. That being the case, I thought that it would be prudent to "share" at least the bonus xp that were earned by the henchman' s direct action, i.e. slayer, but not passively, i.e. me not dying.

If my assumptions are wrong, then I would have to re-think my position on xp slightly.

Some of the older (A)D&D games did it that way which may be where you got the idea from.

In DDO all XP is groups based and everyone gets the same. The only exception to that rill is repitition and level. If you repeat a quest to many times, you will start losing XP. If you are to high above the quest level or someone in the party is to high above you, you will start losing XP.
Failing that, everyone gets the same XP regardless of how much or little they contribute.