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sirgog
02-19-2010, 01:14 AM
The Devs have talked about overhauling the favor system sometime soon. Many of the rewards for particular milestones are terribly weak, while others are basically essential for all characters.

Here's a suggestion for a full overhaul of rewards. It keeps all the current rewards that people at all value in the game. Few things become harder to unlock - really Drow going to 500 is about the only thing of note, plus the third bank tab costs a tiny amount more plat to better fit a pattern for the fourth and fifth tabs.


Earning Favor:
Keep the system generally as-is, but allow Epic quests to five times Normal mode favor, so for instance VON5 offers 10/20/30/50 favor. This reflects the fact that the jump from Elite to Epic is significantly more of a difficulty increase than Hard to Elite.


Account Favor Rewards:
Presently these come at very arbitrary-seeming numbers, and it's a long way between some rewards (1000 to 1750 is quite a gap, 1750 to 2500 is even bigger). Here I suggest a system where every 500 points offers a noticeable gift (and these keep getting better),

My suggestions follow. Characters that have already unlocked an equivalent reward under the present system (say someone that has turned in the 400 favor quest to unlock Drow) can turn in these to receive the gift, so someone with 3100 favor at the time this system is introduced will get a fair number of rewards.
This is a way to reward long-term players with one-time respecs for toons that have been gimped or nerfed by rules changes.

500: Unlock Drow race on your current server, plus choose a free bound-to-account gift: Rest of the Eladrin statue, Greater Siberis Rez Cake, or a 50 use Critical Heal rod.
1000: Unlock Veteran status on your current server, plus choose a bound-to-account free gift: +1 tome of your choice, Ethereal Rest Shrine, or a Major Experience Elixir (6 hours +20%).
1500: Unlock 32 point builds and True Reincarnation on your current server, plus choose a bound-to-account free gift: +1 Supreme Ability tome (all six stats), Ethereal Rest Shrine, or a Major XP elixir.
2000: Receive a bound-to-account free gift: +2 tome of your choice, Ethereal Rest Shrine or a Major XP elixir
2500: Unlock Favored Soul class on your present server. Receive a bound-to-account free gift: +2 tome of your choice, Major XP elixir, or an Ethereal Rest Shrine
3000: Receive a bound-to-character free gift: +3 tome of your choice, +2 Supreme Ability tome, Greater Druidic Heart of Wood +3, True Druidic Heart of Wood.
3500: Unlock a future race or class that's intended to be something a little special (say Tiefling, Aasimar or Warlock, not something presented in the first Player's Handbook). Same selection of free gifts as 3000.


Favor Rewards by Patron:
Presently these also follow a pretty ramshackle setup - some patrons offer a 75/150/400/(unattainable) 700 progression, others a 40/100/250, and whilst some rewards are useful, many are garbage. This shakeup makes all of them follow a simple 75/150/300/600 system, save the Twelve which is 40/75/150/...
This shakeup is intended to add significant plat sinks to the economy - providing a use for the enormous amounts of plat some players (like myself) have accumulated, and in doing so, making platinum more valuable, so newer players can actually aspire to buying good stuff on the Auction House that they can afford with the plat they earn from adventuring. None of these plat sinks will provide 'must-have' items (the items you can buy are all weaker than raid loot), but plenty of them will be worthwhile having.

Coin Lords:
75 Favor: Keep this as-is. 4th inventory tab, no plat fee.
150 Favor: Also keep this as-is. 5th inventory tab, requires 10k PP and a Collapsed Portable Hole.
300 Favor: Access to the Coin Lords exclusive shop (see below).
(unattainable) 600 Favor: Keep the requirements doubling, it makes them easier to work out. This can be added much later, I'd consider halving Auction House fees.

House Deneith:
75 Favor: Partial access to the exclusive House Deneith shop (see below)
150 Favor: Access to more products at the shop
300 Favor: Access to much more at the shop.

House Kundarak:
75 Favor: Keep this as-is. 2nd bank slot, minor plat fee (2k PP)
150 Favor: Keep this as-is. 3rd bank slot, note increased plat fee (10k PP)
300 Favor: Access to two new bank slots. 50k PP for fourth slot, 250k PP for fifth slot.

House Phiarlan:
75 Favor: Keep this as-is. Cheap, potent, 30 minute buffs.
150 Favor: Keep this as-is.
300 Favor: Access to exclusive House Phiarlan shop.

House Jorasco:
75 Favor: Gives access to purchasing all House J buffs (both the current 75 and the current 150 tiers)
150 Favor: Blessing of the Restorer: Free feat, grants +5% healing amplification (stacks multiplicatively with everything as healing amp usually does)
300 Favor: Access to exclusive House Jorasco shop.

Silver Flame:
75 Favor: Free healing from tavern priests (improved from present half price)
150 Favor: In-town mana/hp regen improved to ten times regular effects (improved from presently just under double).
300 Favor: Access to Silver Flame shop (exactly the same as the present 400 favor reward, plus a few new items)

The Free Agents:
75 Favor: Ability to purchase +1 and +2 Thieves' Tools and other junk (as present)
150 Favor: Ability to purchase +3 and +4 Thieves' Tools and other junk (as present)
300 Favor: Ability to purchase +5 and +6 Thieves' Tools and other junk (as present). Instead of costing 144% of the price of +5 tools (as the current formula might suggest), +6 tools cost 1440% of the price. In addition, ability to purchase Eternal +4 Thieves' Tools for 100k PP.
600 Favor: Ability to purchase +5 Eternal Thieves' Tools (500k PP) and +6 Eternal Thieves' Tools (2.5m PP).

Agents of Argonessen:
75 Favor: Unchanged
150 Favor: Unchanged
300 Favor: Access to the exclusive Agents shop.

The Twelve:
40 Favor: Unchanged
75 Favor: As present 100 favor reward (a free large ingredients bag)
150 Favor: Free feat - Archmage's Ward (permanent, non-stacking, 10% miss chance due to concealment, a half-strength Blur effect)
(unattainable at the moment) 300 Favor: Free 1/day Teleport clicky

Yugoloth:
Unchanged.


Exclusive House Shop items:
All items bind to character.

Coin Lords:
The Coin Lords sell anything available at any of the House shops. They charge triple price for all items - this is how they sustain their luxurious lifestyles.

House Deneith:
Note: +6 weapons bypass DR/Epic.
75 favor: All items presently available at 75 favor (arrows, quivers, etc), plus bound-to-character +5 weapons (all types, min level 6) for 8k PP and +5 armor (all types, min level 6) for 4k PP.
150 favor: All items presently available at 150 favor, plus bound-to-character +5 Icy Burst weapons (all types), +5 Holy weapons (all types), +5 Flaming Burst weapons (all types) and +5 Heavy Fortification armors (all types) for 25k PP. All of these items are min level 10. Also, +3 blunted arrows (as normal +3 arrows but deal blunt damage) for the same price as other +3 arrows. All arrows are also available as bolts.
300 favor: +5 Holy arrows, +5 Metalline arrows, +5 Holy blunted arrows, +5 Axiomatic arrows, +5 Anarchic arrows, +6 arrows (1k PP per stack). +6 Adamantine weapons, +6 Mithril and +6 Adamantine armor (all types, 200k PP each, min level 16).

House Phiarlan:
Caster level 20 potions of Haste, Displacement, Rage, and other arcane buffs (400 PP each).
Concentrated Mneumonic Enhancement potions, 20k PP.
Experimental Oil of Epic Repair (Warforged only, function as Silver Flame healing potions) 2k PP.
Potion of Resist All Energy (Resist 30 to all elements from one potion, duration 10 minutes, caster level 20 for purposes of Dispel effects) 2k PP.
Min level 12 Superior Potency 6 quarterstaff of Arcane Lore 50k PP.

House Jorasco:
Min level 12 Greater Devotion 7 quarterstaff of Greater Healing Lore 50k PP.
House J 'Heal' potion: 660 PP, heals 110 hp and has the same restorative effect as a Heal spell. (These heal less than Silver Flame potions but have no drawback, players may well desire both).
House J 'Regeneration' potion: 1k PP, heals 300 hp over 1 minute (10hp per 2 second 'tick').
+5 silver Undead Bane weapons (min level 12, all types, note NOT Greater Bane) 200k PP each

Silver Flame:
Current 400 favor items, as well as +5 Holy Burst Silver and +5 Holy Burst Cold Iron weapons (all types, 200k PP each, min level 14).

Agents of Argonnessen:
Sells the following, designed to make Dragontouched Crafting less sucky.
Eldrich Essence of Identification: Combine this and an Eldrich Rune in an Eldrich Altar, and you will recieve the same rune back, but its properties will be revealed. 2k PP.
Eldrich Essence of Unbinding: Combine this and an identified Eldrich Rune in an Eldrich Alter and the rune will become totally unbound. However, it may now only be used in an Eldrich Alter by players with 300 Agents favor. 10k PP.
Tempest and Sovereign Essences of Identification: 6k PP and 18k PP respectively.
Tempest and Sovereign Essences of Unbinding: 30k PP and 90k PP respectively.

Rasczak
02-19-2010, 02:34 AM
I like the idea.

The agent costs may be hecticly expensive for my liking considering how many runes I normally go through and I like the reward options for favour milestones.

Do you think there should be an option to buy TP's with plat at a ridiculous price or would that ruin Turbine's moneymaking options?

Also exchanging epic scrolls etc for other randomly generated options as a favour reward with each epic area's patron? At a price.

Maybe add in an option for free agents, that the dwarven cow in desert can repair and restore damaged items fully at a cost and maybe khyber tiny shards etc?

They can also start adding in class specific items as per patron.
Ie. wiz's and sorcs that gain favour with the Twelve gain spell component bags as an option
Rogues with House P gain thief tool bags, etc etc
Clerics, FvS & Bards gain scroll bags, Rangers / Fighters / Barbarians / Paladins gain pot cases and/or sheathes that can hold certain weapons,
Not perfectly thought out just an idea on the spot.

I have others but it involves new content and this is based on current ;)

Schwarzie
02-19-2010, 02:40 AM
/partly signed.

Im against the selling of more than +5 weapons and armour.

The rest i like, especially the Argonessen Stuff.

Therilith
02-19-2010, 03:04 AM
/ambivalence

Some of the rewards seem a little too good, and some of the changes seem a bit unnecessary, but you have some good ideas too.

AylinIsAwesome
02-19-2010, 03:46 AM
I like it. May need some work on the +6 weapons though...

/signed anyway

Bacab
02-19-2010, 03:48 AM
/signed
amazing...maybe some tweeking here/there, but great

mattysix
02-19-2010, 04:11 AM
/signed

some great ideas, espesially the choice of +2 supreme tome, perfect to reincarnate with :)

matty.

Anderei
02-19-2010, 04:35 AM
Remove the requirement to unlock drows and put something else there, might trick less newbies into thinking its an awesome race. (no they aren't bad for some builds, but definitely not any better than any other race out there)

Borror0
02-19-2010, 04:39 AM
1500: Unlock 32 point builds and True Reincarnation on your current server, plus choose a bound-to-account free gift: +1 Supreme Ability tome (all six stats), Ethereal Rest Shrine, or a Major XP elixir.
A fitting gift to complement the ability to create 32 point buy builds would be a bound-to-character Greater Druidic Heart of Wood. Though, that would break the pattern and might be considerably more valuable than the other options since those were ridiculously expensive in the DDO Store on Lamannia.

Im against the selling of more than +5 weapons and armour.

May need some work on the +6 weapons though...
Your input would be more useful if you would elaborate some more...

AylinIsAwesome
02-19-2010, 04:40 AM
Remove the requirement to unlock drows and put something else there, might trick less newbies into thinking its an awesome race. (no they aren't bad for some builds, but definitely not any better than any other race out there)

Well, if your choice is either Drow or a 28-point race...often times Drow is better in that situation.

Krag
02-19-2010, 05:50 AM
/partially signed

I agree with the idea that favor rewards should be worth the effort. The platinum sink you are suggesting is also very good thing. However your suggestion would (intentionally or not) change balance in the way I don't like.

Class abilities via consumables should be granted either in their lesser form (short duration haste/rage potions), with significant drawbacks (Tenser Transformation, Silver Flame favor reward) or at the cost of sacrificing capstone and/or equipment slots (UMD Healing scrolls). You may argue that certain items already violating this rule of thumb but that would not justify adding more of them.

AylinIsAwesome
02-19-2010, 05:58 AM
Your input would be more useful if you would elaborate some more...

Haha, sorry...super tired... X_X



Basically I'm not sure if it would be a good thing to have the ability to just go buy weapons that bypass Epic DR, even if you have to pay a lot for them and gain lots of favour, since I think you would need to quest for weapons like that, really. They are Epic weapons...so what sense does it make for a store to just have a hundred or so in the backroom at any given time?

Vorn
02-19-2010, 06:22 AM
/signed

It was a bit of a let down to become an honerary member of the twelve and discover that combining that with about 65 gp I could get a cup of gallandria distillate.:p (Kind of funny in retrospect as what would one expect out of those folks really!:))

Would very much like to see some minor things along the lines of the Agents of Argonessen favor (+10 hp) for the upper tiers. As it is now, with the ability to provide legacy +5 thieves tools that don't hav ml's, not playing any ranged characters, not too worried about breaking stuff, about the only thing that gets used by me are house P buffs at lower levels.

Borror0
02-19-2010, 06:38 AM
House Phiarlan:
Caster level 20 potions of Haste, Displacement, Rage, and other arcane buffs (400 PP each).
I would be wary with Displacement, since it's a fairly powerful single-target buff and offering it on potions does have serious repercussions on game balance. Rage and Haste are fine (Rage because it's only a small improvement over clickies and potions; Haste because it's an AoE effect that's always on in groups).

They are Epic weapons...so what sense does it make for a store to just have a hundred or so in the backroom at any given time?
It's far less threatening to the verisimilitude of the setting than the existence of several Epic Sword of Shadows at once, in your own backpack, which you gained from killing Velah multiple times in a row. If the setting can bear design based on repetition, it can bear a vendor with an endless supply of Epic weapons. It's easier to imagine that the vendor simply has an handful of Epic weapons that he bought from other adventurers than to deny the absurdity of several Epic Sword of Shadows in your backpack or the absurdity of repeating the same quest several times.

Yes, it requires a bit of denial but we're challenged with more absurd things to deny and we do just fine.

Schwarzie
02-19-2010, 07:09 AM
Your input would be more useful if you would elaborate some more...

Im against this basically for two reasons. First its Flavour (ok flavour is kicked with feets in this game, so more a minor point) selling such powerfull magic items seems plain wrong.


Second is a balancing point. +5 Burst weapons arent bad at all. Not everybody is completely shrouded out. I for example would have the favour to buy that stuff, but im still lacking the Large ingridients for all my wanted Shroud items since i came over to the us servers with the beginning of EU.

These weapons would loose their worth ingame completely when you can buy them that cheap in a shop.

And for the older players that point would be irrelevant, they mostly have all the ingridients and Twinkitems they ever need. So for them favour would still be mostly irrelevant.


And selling Epic Weapons, for which you normaly have to do an insane grind...

Borror0
02-19-2010, 07:20 AM
+5 Burst weapons arent bad at all. Not everybody is completely shrouded out. I for example would have the favour to buy that stuff, but im still lacking the Large ingridients for all my wanted Shroud items since i came over to the us servers with the beginning of EU.

These weapons would loose their worth ingame completely when you can buy them that cheap in a shop.

And for the older players that point would be irrelevant, they mostly have all the ingridients and Twinkitems they ever need. So for them favour would still be mostly irrelevant.
I don't see how what you describe is a bad thing. While some items will lose worth, they were only valuable to new players (as you pointed out) and other undergeared players. However, those same players have their gaming experience improved because they gain catch-up items more easily so it's a net gain.

And selling Epic Weapons, for which you normaly have to do an insane grind...
Vanilla epic weapons are not on the same level as, say, Epic Xuum or Epic Sword of Shadow.

A mere +6 weapon is still several levels of power below any even remotely desirable epic weapon.

Araminta
02-19-2010, 07:27 AM
what about house K? WHy would house D get to sell the upgraded armour when it's House K's field as far as the shop is concerned?

Also monks and warfrogs don't seem to feature - yes VIPs get them but if you're looking at unlocking things ppl *want*, ok, possibly want surely these could beoptions as well.

I probably misread a lot of the posts but these seemed to be glaring omissions :-)

On another note - what does "automatically parse links in text mean" on the misc options when you're replying to threads?

Is this a typo or parallel universism?

:-P

Borror0
02-19-2010, 07:43 AM
what about house K? WHy would house D get to sell the upgraded armour when it's House K's field as far as the shop is concerned?
House K's favor rewards already focus on the banking aspect of the house. It's just better to leave the design space to House D since banking is already pretty desirable on its own. Plus, if you really wanted to give something more to House K, warding spells would be a more flavorful choice.

On another note - what does "automatically parse links in text mean" on the misc options when you're replying to threads?
If you uncheck it, a copypasted link will be displayed link this: http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/House_Kundarak
If you keep it checked, a copypasted link will be displayed like this: http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/House_Kundarak

Araminta
02-19-2010, 07:47 AM
it says "parse" - I know what "paste" means - but parse? :-P

nibel
02-19-2010, 04:50 PM
/signed

Need some twinks, as pointed, but no doubt, its a great idea.

sirgog
02-20-2010, 09:01 PM
I like it. May need some work on the +6 weapons though...

/signed anyway

On the +6 weapons, consider this comparison.

+6 Greataxe vs. Greensteel Blank Greataxe (no enhancements)


To-Hit: +6 vs +5
Damage: 2d6+6 (13) vs 3d6+5 (15.5). (All is base damage, so all is multiplied on a crit)
Ability to break DR: Minimal in both cases (one beats Paragon Kobold DR, the other beats Eladrin DR)


In short - I'd pretty much always prefer to use the Greensteel Blank over the +6 weapon. However, it lets the Devs have the freedom to add trash mobs with (say) DR 15/epic or even higher, and know that players can get a 'bad' weapon that beats it easily. Of course, those with actual named Epic weapons will use them instead, and they will be much stronger.

Renvar
02-21-2010, 03:59 PM
I like the revamped rewards, but if we are overhauling the favor system, I would also like to see favor work like XP does. (kinda). If you are more than 6 levels over the quest level then you earn no favor for the run. Also, if you are powerleveled from XP, then you should be powerleveled from Favor. No percentage reductions for 2,3,4 levels over. That's too complex. just a cliff. Under 6 levels normal favor. Over 6 levels - nothing.

In Game Results:

With solid favor rewards available, earning favor would be a significant advantage. Thus people would want to earn it. As they can only earn it in level range, rather than farming deleras part 2 and 4 and maybe 2-4 other quests to level from 4 to 10, they would run a variety of quests.

This would lead to more LFM's for more than just TR, STK, Deleras, Gwylans, Stormcleave and CO6 from level 5-10.

It would end favor runs where a level 20 and a level 4 are running 3BC or Catacombs.

Roleplaying Rational:

For the powerleveling: If a level 4 was running Taming the Flames with a level 20 and they went back to the patron, who would get the credit for the quest victory? The near demi-god or the squire who watched the horses? Really. That level 4 would be viewed as a peon. A serf. A part of the entourage. His reputation would not increase. The level 4 would not be able to garner respect or rewards without the presence of their superior teammate. Who really calls for Robin? It's Batman they want.

For the over level limit: If you have made your reputation slaying Velah and reassembling the Tear of Dakaan, does anyone really care if you then go and defend harverdasher? Does it earn you much more esteem? Its too trivial. It's like Gandalf using his power to clean a chamber pot. It's not going to enhance his image much at all.

Another potential idea:

Make certain quests only unlockable with a certain level of favor. Would Barrow D'kundarak really trust you to take on his quest if you couldn't deal with the ruined halls or the chamber of insanity? He should turn you away if you don't have at least 75 favor. Same with the Jorasco that hands out Tempest Spine. Require a reputation to be given a chance to try some quests. It makes no sense that these folks would trust an unknwon with such a challenging assignment.

In game result would be: once again, more variety of quests run at level. Creates links in the world. Your actions have results beyond that one quest.

Just my 2cp if we are looking at revamping favor. But the key is meaningful rewards. That's the real carrot that will make the system work. I like the rewards in the OP for that reason.

Lleren
02-21-2010, 09:12 PM
/signed

LunaCee
02-21-2010, 09:44 PM
I like the revamped rewards, but if we are overhauling the favor system, I would also like to see favor work like XP does. (kinda). If you are more than 6 levels over the quest level then you earn no favor for the run. Also, if you are powerleveled from XP, then you should be powerleveled from Favor. No percentage reductions for 2,3,4 levels over. That's too complex. just a cliff. Under 6 levels normal favor. Over 6 levels - nothing.

Big fat NO to that. So you buy another adventure pack as a premium or as a F2P point grinder with way too much time on their hands, maybe you've leveled to twenty with the suggested packs, but you really want to unlock that 32pt or FvS... The pack you bought was so that new characters would have something interesting to run, but for your main character it is favor! Oh wait... no favor because this quest chain doesn't have epic yet and thus isn't within six levels! FAIL! Your system would work if *everyone* had all quests at their disposal, but not everyone does.

As for Sirgog's suggestion? /signed

ExK444
02-21-2010, 09:59 PM
it says "parse" - I know what "paste" means - but parse? :-P

It basically means format. i.e. turning text into a hyperlink.

AylinIsAwesome
02-22-2010, 12:01 AM
I like the revamped rewards, but if we are overhauling the favor system, I would also like to see favor work like XP does. (kinda). If you are more than 6 levels over the quest level then you earn no favor for the run. Also, if you are powerleveled from XP, then you should be powerleveled from Favor. No percentage reductions for 2,3,4 levels over. That's too complex. just a cliff. Under 6 levels normal favor. Over 6 levels - nothing.

In Game Results:

With solid favor rewards available, earning favor would be a significant advantage. Thus people would want to earn it. As they can only earn it in level range, rather than farming deleras part 2 and 4 and maybe 2-4 other quests to level from 4 to 10, they would run a variety of quests.

This would lead to more LFM's for more than just TR, STK, Deleras, Gwylans, Stormcleave and CO6 from level 5-10.

It would end favor runs where a level 20 and a level 4 are running 3BC or Catacombs.

Roleplaying Rational:

For the powerleveling: If a level 4 was running Taming the Flames with a level 20 and they went back to the patron, who would get the credit for the quest victory? The near demi-god or the squire who watched the horses? Really. That level 4 would be viewed as a peon. A serf. A part of the entourage. His reputation would not increase. The level 4 would not be able to garner respect or rewards without the presence of their superior teammate. Who really calls for Robin? It's Batman they want.

For the over level limit: If you have made your reputation slaying Velah and reassembling the Tear of Dakaan, does anyone really care if you then go and defend harverdasher? Does it earn you much more esteem? Its too trivial. It's like Gandalf using his power to clean a chamber pot. It's not going to enhance his image much at all.

Another potential idea:

Make certain quests only unlockable with a certain level of favor. Would Barrow D'kundarak really trust you to take on his quest if you couldn't deal with the ruined halls or the chamber of insanity? He should turn you away if you don't have at least 75 favor. Same with the Jorasco that hands out Tempest Spine. Require a reputation to be given a chance to try some quests. It makes no sense that these folks would trust an unknwon with such a challenging assignment.

In game result would be: once again, more variety of quests run at level. Creates links in the world. Your actions have results beyond that one quest.

Just my 2cp if we are looking at revamping favor. But the key is meaningful rewards. That's the real carrot that will make the system work. I like the rewards in the OP for that reason.


I don't like this idea. In addition to not everyone having all the adventure packs when they're in the current level range, it will make leveling much more inconvenient even if someone does have all the adventure packs. Also requiring a certain level of favour to even get bestowed a quest would just make more opportunities for things to mess up with the game.

Also about your comment of killing Velah, then defending Haverdasher and no one caring enough to give favour. If that was the case why would the favour you got from defending him at level 3 stack with the favour you get from killing Velah to begin with?

Rasczak
02-22-2010, 12:21 AM
I don't like this idea. In addition to not everyone having all the adventure packs when they're in the current level range, it will make leveling much more inconvenient even if someone does have all the adventure packs. Also requiring a certain level of favour to even get bestowed a quest would just make more opportunities for things to mess up with the game.

Also about your comment of killing Velah, then defending Haverdasher and no one caring enough to give favour. If that was the case why would the favour you got from defending him at level 3 stack with the favour you get from killing Velah to begin with?

Also added to this that favour is not xp. Favour is the reknown you get with each house for completing work for them. End of story, the more popular you are with the house the more benefits you get with them. Powerleveling and doing the quest way above level has nothing to do with favour, the house only cares how much work you have done for them, not how you did it.



For the powerleveling: If a level 4 was running Taming the Flames with a level 20 and they went back to the patron, who would get the credit for the quest victory? The near demi-god or the squire who watched the horses? Really. That level 4 would be viewed as a peon. A serf. A part of the entourage. His reputation would not increase. The level 4 would not be able to garner respect or rewards without the presence of their superior teammate. Who really calls for Robin? It's Batman they want.


They didn't call batman. They called upon a party of adventurers. Exactly how do you tell the level of someone by looking at them? In rpg terms noone would know the level difference, they would know the party and members through reputation though. Hence the big NO to your suggestion. XP and Patron Points are not the same thing and nowhere close to being the same thing.
House asks party to do this favour for them, party does it and gains positive reputation with the house. Nothing to do with being overpowered or powerfavoured....it's a completely different mechanic and flavour to the game, it has no bearing on the strength of a character.

Renvar
02-22-2010, 12:35 AM
I don't like this idea. In addition to not everyone having all the adventure packs when they're in the current level range, it will make leveling much more inconvenient even if someone does have all the adventure packs. Also requiring a certain level of favour to even get bestowed a quest would just make more opportunities for things to mess up with the game.

Also about your comment of killing Velah, then defending Haverdasher and no one caring enough to give favour. If that was the case why would the favour you got from defending him at level 3 stack with the favour you get from killing Velah to begin with?

Interesting. I had not considered the impact this change would have on the F2p/Premium player with limited adventure packs. I was thinking more of the RP/in-game dynamics of favor and how to make the system a more interesting and challenging part of the game. That impact on the premium player is an issue that would need to be seriously considered.

I still think there needs to be a solution to this problem, though. If you want to give away the kind of rewards the OP proposes (which I am all for) then make favor challenging to earn. Maybe my ideas were flawed, but something should changed to make the effort = the reward. You shouldn't be giving out +3 tomes or +2 unbound tomes to a level 20 toon for running every quest level 10 and below on elite.

Right now the reward = not much and the effort = not much. When the reward = good stuff, the effort needs to = challenging.

Rasczak
02-22-2010, 12:48 AM
Interesting. I had not considered the impact this change would have on the F2p/Premium player with limited adventure packs. I was thinking more of the RP/in-game dynamics of favor and how to make the system a more interesting and challenging part of the game. That impact on the premium player is an issue that would need to be seriously considered.

I still think there needs to be a solution to this problem, though. If you want to give away the kind of rewards the OP proposes (which I am all for) then make favor challenging to earn. Maybe my ideas were flawed, but something should changed to make the effort = the reward. You shouldn't be giving out +3 tomes or +2 unbound tomes to a level 20 toon for running every quest level 10 and below on elite.

Right now the reward = not much and the effort = not much. When the reward = good stuff, the effort needs to = challenging.

Well buying a +2 supreme tome in the store will probably be easier than what the OP suggests. Also for anyone who has run favour for FvS will know that it's not an easy accomplishment. 2k Favour is nasty to get, already for 1750 you get a +2 tome of your choice as well as unlocking 32ptrs so the OP has just shifted it up to 2k making it harder to get. At the end of the day, a +2 tome does not much for a character, in mechanics it only raises things by 1 and seeing how easy it is to drop +2 nowadays is not that overpowered.
And any lvl 20 that does get the favour suggested does deserve the tomes imo. They have put in a lot of hours to get it. I think maybe the number just looks so small, only 2000 favour, but in reality it is a lot of hard work to gain it.

sirgog
02-22-2010, 01:42 AM
Interesting. I had not considered the impact this change would have on the F2p/Premium player with limited adventure packs. I was thinking more of the RP/in-game dynamics of favor and how to make the system a more interesting and challenging part of the game. That impact on the premium player is an issue that would need to be seriously considered.

I still think there needs to be a solution to this problem, though. If you want to give away the kind of rewards the OP proposes (which I am all for) then make favor challenging to earn. Maybe my ideas were flawed, but something should changed to make the effort = the reward. You shouldn't be giving out +3 tomes or +2 unbound tomes to a level 20 toon for running every quest level 10 and below on elite.

Right now the reward = not much and the effort = not much. When the reward = good stuff, the effort needs to = challenging.

If you want to get +2 tomes and get them easily, you already can. Run the Inspired Quarter on normal to ransack, or the Reaver's Refuge explorer areas.

Even +3 tomes can be easily (if slowly) obtained from 20th Reaver runs, and 20 reavers is no challenge at all to someone that knows the mechanics of the raid.

Shade
02-22-2010, 03:49 AM
I want to see the favor system overhauled too..

But most of your suggestions are extremely overpowered and will render too much lootgen stuff 100% obsolete.

Favor rewards should not replace what you could get from lootgen or even static rewards ever. They should be unique, fun boosts, but not ones that greatly and permantly increase your characters power like some of your suggestions do.

Things like more bank slots, cheaper AH prices, or ability to identify runes are great ideas..
Or 1 time rewards like xp potions and rest shrines are cool too (Not a fan of the stupid self rez cakes - they just promote ******** play).. But regular rez cakes you cant use on yourself, as a 1 shot reward are good too.

Things like selling insanely rare and powerful weaponry like +5 holy burst cold iron just isn't going to happen. I haven't even seen such a beast on live in the years i've played (best i've seen is about +3/4, and usually crappy types, at extreme values on the AH) , certainly dont want them to end up in a shop.

Bumping available arrows up from +3 to +4 is fine.. But going to the MAX (+5) and beyond it, for an unlimited vendor is overpowered and not gonna happen.

Same for potion increase. Haste potions stronger then 30 seconds would be awesome, but you suggest going from 30s to 2minuits - way too big of a jump. I could see CL:10 potions (1minuit) being avaiable as very high tier reward tho. Or a 1 time shot of a stack of 100 2minuit ones, but no unlimited supplies.

Renvar
02-22-2010, 08:41 AM
If you want to get +2 tomes and get them easily, you already can. Run the Inspired Quarter on normal to ransack, or the Reaver's Refuge explorer areas.

Even +3 tomes can be easily (if slowly) obtained from 20th Reaver runs, and 20 reavers is no challenge at all to someone that knows the mechanics of the raid.


I agree that these items are available as quest rewards for mid-high level quests, but you are talking about a level 16-20 toon running quests in the 15-20 level range and getting a solid end chest or end reward for it based on the loot tables.

Although there may not be challenge there for the long term, skilled player, the chance of failure is still present. Maybe not very present, but much more so than a level 20 toon blowing through Korthos, the Harbor, 3BC, and the marketplace on elite. There is zero challenge or chance of failure for a level 15+ toon in these situations.

So lets see:

Run Level 15-18 quest while level 16-20 and get a CHANCE for a +2 Tome or +3 Tome (Based on loot table)
or
Run Level 1-10 quests while level 16-20 and get a guaranteed +2 Tome or +3 Tome.

It just feels unbalanced on the effort side.

Don't get me wrong, Sirgog, I like the better rewards you propose. I would love to see them in game. But not at the current challenge level. If you want meaningful rewards, earning favor should be meaningful. And right now earning favor is not meaningful. It's taking candy from a CR 1 kobald.

Schwarzie
02-23-2010, 04:22 AM
Run Level 15-18 quest while level 16-20 and get a CHANCE for a +2 Tome or +3 Tome (Based on loot table)
or
Run Level 1-10 quests while level 16-20 and get a guaranteed +2 Tome or +3 Tome.

It just feels unbalanced on the effort side.

one of my Characters, Keldi is at around 1.4k favour and at levelcap. So i would need 350 more favour. Im sure that i would get more than one +2 tome out of the Inspired Quarter in the same time i would need to grind the favour.

sirgog
02-23-2010, 05:17 AM
I agree that these items are available as quest rewards for mid-high level quests, but you are talking about a level 16-20 toon running quests in the 15-20 level range and getting a solid end chest or end reward for it based on the loot tables.

Although there may not be challenge there for the long term, skilled player, the chance of failure is still present. Maybe not very present, but much more so than a level 20 toon blowing through Korthos, the Harbor, 3BC, and the marketplace on elite. There is zero challenge or chance of failure for a level 15+ toon in these situations.

So lets see:

Run Level 15-18 quest while level 16-20 and get a CHANCE for a +2 Tome or +3 Tome (Based on loot table)
or
Run Level 1-10 quests while level 16-20 and get a guaranteed +2 Tome or +3 Tome.

It just feels unbalanced on the effort side.

Don't get me wrong, Sirgog, I like the better rewards you propose. I would love to see them in game. But not at the current challenge level. If you want meaningful rewards, earning favor should be meaningful. And right now earning favor is not meaningful. It's taking candy from a CR 1 kobald.

To be honest, a level 20 character is at more risk running elite Desert quests than they are soloing normal Inspired Quarter quests, even elite Gwylan's Stand has tougher challenges for characters than soloing fully downscaled (dungeon scaling) IQ stuff.


As for the +5 holy burst cold iron weapons - the only reason random lootgen +5 holy burst of (metal) is desirable is because it's unbound and can thus be passed from toon to toon, or used until you get a Mineral 2 weapon then sold off. These items would bind to character on purchase, and as such would be used only temporarily - but the plat is out of the economy permanently.

Renvar
02-23-2010, 08:54 AM
Well buying a +2 supreme tome in the store will probably be easier than what the OP suggests. Also for anyone who has run favour for FvS will know that it's not an easy accomplishment. 2k Favour is nasty to get, already for 1750 you get a +2 tome of your choice as well as unlocking 32ptrs so the OP has just shifted it up to 2k making it harder to get. At the end of the day, a +2 tome does not much for a character, in mechanics it only raises things by 1 and seeing how easy it is to drop +2 nowadays is not that overpowered.
And any lvl 20 that does get the favour suggested does deserve the tomes imo. They have put in a lot of hours to get it. I think maybe the number just looks so small, only 2000 favour, but in reality it is a lot of hard work to gain it.

First: I agree with you that buying a tome in the store would be easier than earning one. But, the purchase of tomes with real world $$ in DDO store has no bearing on the favor reward system. Clearly, whipping out your CC is much easier than earning anything in game. I'm not sure how that is relevant.

Second: I agree with you that the +2 you get at 1750 is nearly worthless by the time you get it, in most cases. However, theres a big difference between the +2 character bound tome currently at 1750 and a +2 unbound tome proposed. The value of a +2 bound tome to a toon with 1750 favor is minimal at best. Most toons will already have +2 tomes on their key stats. All you can do with that +2 bound tome is bank it for a TR or get it to boost a dump stat. An unbound tome, however, can be given to an alt or sold for 500k plat or more on the AH. Much more useful. In any case, though, I agree that the rewards are not overpowered. I LIKE the rewards.

The only thing I really disagree with is when you say that 1750 or 2000 favor is "hard to get" or "hard work". To me, hard work is Epic desert. Or running DQ Raid at level. Or any quest on elite at level. Hard requires skill and focus and good play. There is a chance of failure.

Grinding 1750 or 2000 favor, under the current system, requires no skill. You can level to cap and get 1000 favor just through the leveling process(OK that's can hard, but that's leveling, not favor earning). Then you go back and run Korthos, Harbor, Market, 3BC, and low house quests on elite to get the rest. It is tedious, and long, and boring, and also totally easy and unchallenging. How much hard work is there in "run to the end, drop a FW or a BB, get completion, Finish Out"? The only challenge is not falling asleep and banging your face on the keyboard. And while staying awake is a great accomplishment for some, its not something that you should get a +2 unbound tome or a +3 tome for, IMO.

LunaCee
02-23-2010, 09:05 AM
I'll just point out a couple things here...

Low level quests generally have lower favor per quest than higher level quests. Like somebody else said, just by ransacking the Inspired Quarter over the course of a few hours you'll have had EXCELLENT chances of pulling multiple tomes and other great loot than the amount of TIME you'd have to sink into favor grinding just to get a single unbound tome via favor.

Seriously... Spend a few hours ransacking a high level area on a spell caster with dungeon scaling in effect helping you out, or be running around in quests dramatically under level trying to earn favor but since a single quest on elite at lower levels is maybe 12 or so favor... Figure in having to at least do it on hard before doing it on elite unless you can get an opener... Instead of ~3 hours to get multiple tomes possibly you are looking at upwards of 15+ hours to get ONE TOME.

Renvar
02-23-2010, 09:10 AM
To be honest, a level 20 character is at more risk running elite Desert quests than they are soloing normal Inspired Quarter quests, even elite Gwylan's Stand has tougher challenges for characters than soloing fully downscaled (dungeon scaling) IQ stuff.


As for the +5 holy burst cold iron weapons - the only reason random lootgen +5 holy burst of (metal) is desirable is because it's unbound and can thus be passed from toon to toon, or used until you get a Mineral 2 weapon then sold off. These items would bind to character on purchase, and as such would be used only temporarily - but the plat is out of the economy permanently.

There are certain high level quests that are easier to solo than others. The IQ is surely watered down content in comparison with the Reaver quests or the Amrath quests. But, I have no issue with a level 16-20 toon running IQ content (level 18) and getting a level appropriate end reward (+2 tome). I do have issue with a level 16-20 toon running level 10 and below content and getting a +2 tome for it. (Well, "have an issue with it" might be to strongly worded. "Would like to see it changed as long as we are revamping the system" might be a better way to put it).

As for the weapons, I have no issue with them. I like your reward choices. I think it was another poster that argued that point.

Cyr
02-23-2010, 10:09 AM
Interesting suggestions OP. I certainly think the suggested path would be better then the current implementation. However, I would like to see the Huge bags as rewards for favor since these are one of the few items from store not available otherwise. I am sure they could easily be added to the 'item' shops for the various favor houses as bind to character. The plat sink idea here is also very interesting. I disagree with some critical posters that the purchasable items are too good. The whole idea is to provide something useful after all. I also very much think that having a purchasable DR bypasser for all the mob types is a good thing. They are not as written out superior to loot gen items, but they would provide a way for someone to at least contribute to certain raids when they are new to the game. Another add on to the item shops I would put in are the DDO store ability pots. Have them sell for fairly outrageous prices so they will only be used at top end sparingly.

Onto another poster who apparently thinks that locking out favor if you over level it...that makes zero sense. No character in DDO should be forever prevented from obtaining a reward based upon how they choose to level up. Favor farming with higher level toons is perhaps the least rewarding benefit/time ratio in DDO.

phinius
02-23-2010, 10:20 AM
Perhaps two favor processes.

I see the existing favor system as the 'Quantity of persons/organizations assisted' in a particular are. Completing All quests in an area means everyone in that area knows you and likes you.

They could perhaps add a new element to favor representing 'Continued service to that area' that would accumulate each time a quest is completed. This accumulated favor would work like currency and could be used to purchase the more powerful items available in that area.

Bunker
02-23-2010, 10:27 AM
OP: Your suggestion to overhaul the favor system is a good one. Turbine certainly has put this system on the back burner for quite some time, and it needs to be brought back to a boil. As Shade said:


But most of your suggestions are extremely overpowered and will render too much lootgen stuff 100% obsolete.

...and I think that is pretty accurate.

They should definitly rework a few rewards, and of course keep adding new ones as our characters reach new marks.

The fact that we reached 400 coinlord without any reward is proof that they have put this system in the rear, and left it for dead. (and if there is a 400 coinlord reward, please let me know, cause I have not seen it)

ryingar
02-23-2010, 11:23 AM
/signed

I believe that the favor system needs an overhaul. A few, not all, seem overpowered, however I really like the thought and effort you put into the post. And I'm glad to see that this thread didn't blow up into a flame...if it was put up on the khyber forums i think it would have been, but we like drama over there.

Renvar
02-23-2010, 01:18 PM
Interesting suggestions OP. I certainly think the suggested path would be better then the current implementation. However, I would like to see the Huge bags as rewards for favor since these are one of the few items from store not available otherwise. I am sure they could easily be added to the 'item' shops for the various favor houses as bind to character. The plat sink idea here is also very interesting. I disagree with some critical posters that the purchasable items are too good. The whole idea is to provide something useful after all. I also very much think that having a purchasable DR bypasser for all the mob types is a good thing. They are not as written out superior to loot gen items, but they would provide a way for someone to at least contribute to certain raids when they are new to the game. Another add on to the item shops I would put in are the DDO store ability pots. Have them sell for fairly outrageous prices so they will only be used at top end sparingly.

Onto another poster who apparently thinks that locking out favor if you over level it...that makes zero sense. No character in DDO should be forever prevented from obtaining a reward based upon how they choose to level up. Favor farming with higher level toons is perhaps the least rewarding benefit/time ratio in DDO.

Cyr, Please explain. Why does it make sense that a character in DDO can be forever prevented from earning XP from a quest based on how they chose to level up but it makes no sense to prevent them from earning favor from the quest? Why should characters earn anything from a quest that offers zero challenge to the character?

Sirgog, If you feel I am derailing your thread by discussing the part of the favor system related to how favor is earned vs. discussing the rewards for certain levels of favor, just let me know. As the thread was titled Favor system overhaul, I assumed that all aspects of the favor system could be discussed, but I don't want to distract from your OP, which has some great rewards and structure to it.

Rasczak
02-24-2010, 12:35 AM
Cyr, Please explain. Why does it make sense that a character in DDO can be forever prevented from earning XP from a quest based on how they chose to level up but it makes no sense to prevent them from earning favor from the quest? Why should characters earn anything from a quest that offers zero challenge to the character?


I've explained this to you before already on this thread.

Favour and XP are completely different entities. XP is experience hence what you have learned while doing that quest and so you grow stronger by using what you learned. Doing something way below your strength means you learn nothing new. Same reason why repeating a quest keeps dropping the XP gained since you are learning less and less each time you repeat it. But you still gain XP even if you have been there before because it's still a challenge in some regards if you at the suggested level.

Favour on the other hand is a once off occurrence. You do a job for a house and they recognise you for it. You gain reputation in their eyes. If you go back and do the same job then your reputation doesn't increase, you've already done it.
But in that same vein, patrons don't give a toss how strong you are or how easy the quest was for you to complete, they ONLY care about the fact that it was done. Whether it's a lvl 1 wizard or a lvl 20 4th TR fighter, their problem is sorted out and they are grateful.


RL Example: If you get a junior techie to program some software for a client, the techie learns a lot and you all gain the clients gratitude.
If you get a senior program to do it, he learns nothing and it's boring for him but you gain the client's gratitude.

Favour is not the same as experience and so should never work the same way.

sirgog
02-24-2010, 01:51 AM
Favour on the other hand is a once off occurrence. You do a job for a house and they recognise you for it. You gain reputation in their eyes. If you go back and do the same job then your reputation doesn't increase, you've already done it.
But in that same vein, patrons don't give a toss how strong you are or how easy the quest was for you to complete, they ONLY care about the fact that it was done. Whether it's a lvl 1 wizard or a lvl 20 4th TR fighter, their problem is sorted out and they are grateful.


RL Example: If you get a junior techie to program some software for a client, the techie learns a lot and you all gain the clients gratitude.
If you get a senior program to do it, he learns nothing and it's boring for him but you gain the client's gratitude.

Favour is not the same as experience and so should never work the same way.

I agree with this, plus I don't like the idea of rewards that you can permanently miss (XP isn't the same - yes you get no XP running elite Catacombs at level 14, but you can get that lost XP elsewhere, which you cannot do with favor).

On the power level issue, random loot table items (with VERY few exceptions) are already obsolete - there's no harm in outdoing them a little further. None of the items I suggested would be the best thing at what they do, although I wouldn't object if the Devs decided to tone down the +5 holy burst (relevant metal) weapons to just +5 Holy (metal) weapon - they'd still serve the same purpose, and would be useful for exactly the same time frame (until you craft Mineral 2 weapons).

I actually thought the caster staves might have been more contentious, granting effects that aren't available on loot below raid or major collectible turnin level (Arcane Lore, Greater Healing Lore) and particularly in a form that monk splashes would like so much (quarterstaff with two useful mods).

Renvar
02-24-2010, 10:26 AM
I've explained this to you before already on this thread.

Favour and XP are completely different entities. XP is experience hence what you have learned while doing that quest and so you grow stronger by using what you learned. Doing something way below your strength means you learn nothing new. Same reason why repeating a quest keeps dropping the XP gained since you are learning less and less each time you repeat it. But you still gain XP even if you have been there before because it's still a challenge in some regards if you at the suggested level.

Favour on the other hand is a once off occurrence. You do a job for a house and they recognise you for it. You gain reputation in their eyes. If you go back and do the same job then your reputation doesn't increase, you've already done it.
But in that same vein, patrons don't give a toss how strong you are or how easy the quest was for you to complete, they ONLY care about the fact that it was done. Whether it's a lvl 1 wizard or a lvl 20 4th TR fighter, their problem is sorted out and they are grateful.


RL Example: If you get a junior techie to program some software for a client, the techie learns a lot and you all gain the clients gratitude.
If you get a senior program to do it, he learns nothing and it's boring for him but you gain the client's gratitude.

Favour is not the same as experience and so should never work the same way.

Rasczak,

I get how it works now. But what I am saying is, I think that viewpoint is too simplistic and, if we are looking at a revamp, that changes could be made to make it match a real "reputation" scenario.

If you are looking at it simply as favor = volume of work done for someone, then, I agree with you. But that is not "reputation" in the bigger picture. The hobbits in Lord of The Rings had a heightened reputation because of what they accomplished and based on their experience. Their deeds were even more impressive. Had Aragorn or Gandalf accomplished what they did it would have been note worthy but less "Wow! Those guys did THAT?". Like it or not, reputation is relative, not concrete.

In a real world environment, your experience and capability do matter. Look at sports for analogies. Kurt Warner goes from bagging groceries to winning a super bowl. His reputation goes up dramatically. Much more than Brett Favre or John Elway's would have for adding another to their already long list.

And if a rookie wins the slam dunk contest at the all star game it increases their reputation. If Lebron James or Michael Jordan does, it matters not one iota. Their other accomplishments far exceed that minor event. (Translation: If you have slain Velah, later defending Harverdasher does not impress)

What I am suggesting is a favor system that more accurately matches how lords and nobles and powerful merchants would view adventurers with a more dynamic favor/reputation system.

Futher a system where favor is meaningful to the NPC's. Why does the Inquisitor in the Lobster not talk to you if you are not level 7 or higher to give you the HIPS quest? He should be looking for you to be Famous, or Renowned, or something. He shouldn't be worried about your level. An NPC has no access to that concept. It's your Reputation that should result in him trusting you. The same with the Agents of Argo. No Gianthold until level 10? That makes no in game/RP sense. They should require 150 coin lord and free agent favor to let you in (or 800 total favor) whatever. You can get the same resulting restrictions but the favor/reputation system should control NPC reaction to PC's not the XP/Level system.

Further, a system that would result in promoting a larger variety of quests run at level.

So, my question was not "how does favor work now?" but: Why does changing from a simplistic favor system where favor = only work done to a more complex one that adds challenge, realism, and complexity to the DDO world and ties your past actions, current actions to future actions make "zero sense"?

I can think of a dozen console and PC games as well as MMO's that more complex, better thought out and implemented favor/reputation systems than DDO and DDO is supposed to be the home of the Founding Father of all RPG's. How do we have a lame simple favor system that is largely ignored by the player populace as an afterthought (several people in this thread have said getting favor is the worst possible use of your time and effort) and meaningless except to garner a couple bank slots and inventory pages or a couple of buffs that are effective for at max 3-4 levels (5-8).

But, short of you wanting the currently weak set of rewards, there is nothing in this game that requires you to garner favor. You could go to cap and never consider favor in the slightest. It is purely optional.

And even more surprising to me, not a single poster agreed with me that it needs to/could be/should be changed. Everyone is OK with favor being the way it is. All anyone really wants is more free loot. Lets up the rewards to better stuff. I just think that without this NPC interaction concept it takes DDO from the realms of an MMORPG and into the realm of a FPS. Everyone talks about the "Dumbing down" of DDO and yet no one seems to want to see the game grow in complexity and depth as a virtual world.

Here's another example: What if the patrons got jealous? (Which in the real world, nobles and rulers would) What if you got 150 House D favor and had only 23 House K favor and the House K patrons and quest givers got rude about it?

That's the kind of favor system I'd like to see. But, I feel like favor is treated as "You can have a favor system to play with if you want. Just keep it optional Just don't let it get in the way of my powerleveling, min/max, DPS, soloing, raiding, l33t, uber plan."

I'll stop talking about it now, since I'm clearly in the minority in liking this concept, but even if you disagree with the idea, I don't think it makes "zero sense". It's just a different way of looking at and wanting to play the game.

Rasczak
02-24-2010, 10:46 AM
lol I think the problem is you're approaching this from a pen n paper point of view.

I think a lot of us did when we started 4 years ago and in some ways still do with certain things. Unfortunately in an MMO world that flavour you're looking at essentially won't work in a MMO.

You make valid points in an RPG situation but there the reputation flavour can be part of the gameplay. In an MMO it would become bulky and way to complicated for something that is meant to be a peripheral bonus for each character ;)