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Angelus_dead
02-11-2010, 11:54 AM
Suggestion
Add 11 new properties for magic weapons which allow the modifiers from non-standard ability scores to be used for the attack or damage of that item, if they would be better than the regular modifier. For example, a +5 Quarterstaff with Dex-For-Damage would add the better of the wielder's strength and dexterity modifiers to damage rolls. In addition, 5 new armor properties could be added to allow other stats to be added to AC in place of dexterity (but subject to the same max dex limits).

Motivation
The developers have recently been putting out magic weapons which are tweaked to use non-standard ability scores for attack or damage (mostly epic loot). However, those items are often unattractive, or even made worse by the substitution. Here's a list:
Breeze: Quarterstaff of dex attack and dex damage
Zephyr: Shortsword of dex attack and dex damage
Dynastic Falcata: Khopesh of cha attack and cha damage
Inner Sight: Staff of int attack and cha damage

Look at the Dynastic Falcata in particular: it's a Paladin weapon, but most Paladins will have more strength than charisma anyhow. Using that item would render you immune to the damage buffs from all kinds of Rage and other strength-boosters. Only a narrow slice of Paladin builds would have enough charisma that they'd prefer using it to strength, so the weapon has been gimped just to allow for that possibility.

That's why it would be better if weapons like this had you automatically use the better of two abilities for the modifier, instead of replacing one with the other. To do it that way increases the likelihood of some character desiring to use the item.

Kriogen
02-11-2010, 02:01 PM
Interesting.

But:
1. Loot nerf. Even more properties that will dilute drops.

2. 40+ Int Battle Wizard FTW! Perfect spell DC and uber DPS.

I'd take it. But I spot problems. I don't even like existing items.

If you can use any ability scores for anything, then why even have them?

Angelus_dead
02-11-2010, 03:47 PM
1. Loot nerf. Even more properties that will dilute drops.
Nobody said it would be added to random loot tables.

In fact, following this suggestion would be the opposite of loot dilution, as named items that are currently usable only to certain kinds of characters will become useful to more people.


2. 40+ Int Battle Wizard FTW! Perfect spell DC and uber DPS.
That would only happen if the developers create an item to make it happen, which they could already do using existing item properties. It is improbable they'd deviate much from existing patterns.

binnsr
02-11-2010, 03:59 PM
Perhaps add them as stone of change recipes and make them require a bunch of top-shelf collectables or something ..

Falco_Easts
02-11-2010, 07:35 PM
I like the idea.

gavagai
02-11-2010, 07:50 PM
I'd say be VEEEERRRRY careful to keep these weapons at a minimum. Every time you make a weapon that takes another stat for attack and damage, you push balance towards certain stat-pumping builds and away from balanced, MAD classes and builds. Classes like rogue and monk would probably be hit the worst.

I see 17Dex, 22 CON, and 40 CHA Warchanters all carrying the same CHA blades with unparalleled DPS. Builds that are made or broken on finding that one piece of EQ to pull their high stats to their advantage, but once they have it -- perfect DCs, and great melee capability. Or think of the WF melee Sorc.

I'll admit it sounds like fun. But it also introduces elements that could easily undermine the whole D&D stat structure and character development process if taken too far. Some trade-offs should be fundamental... right?

Angelus_dead
02-12-2010, 08:11 AM
Classes like rogue and monk would probably be hit the worst.
That is exactly backwards: those are the classes with the biggest potential gain.


But it also introduces elements that could easily undermine the whole D&D stat structure
It doesn't "introduce" anything. As explained in the first post, weapons which use nonstandard stats for attack and damage are already here.

The only effect of this suggestion is to allow the devs to create those kinds of weapons without excluding traditional high-strength characters from wielding them effectively.

epochofcrepuscule
02-12-2010, 08:51 AM
Classes like rogue and monk would probably be hit the worst.

Monk
18 wis start
05 lvl
06 item
01 exceptional bonus
01 litany
01 human
03 tome
03 monk enhancements
38 wisdom.... thats not even with everything possible to boost it...
37 for all others....
35 for wf....

that also increases Ki and DC's... yeah sure.. monks are hit hard.... Now they can run around with 14 str (+6 item and your set from base being 8), around 550 hp (str points into con anyone?)still keep a ridiculously high ac, pump out more dps then a fighter can dream of, and stun/quivering palm all the mobs. Lets not forget the occasional touch of death thrown in there.

I know, what about fire stance? heres my answer... What about it?

Should I even go into the posssible dex for dps dmg for a halfling rogue? whats the highest standing dex for a halfling rogue?

20 dex start
05 lvl
06 item
03 exceptional bonus
01 litany
05 enhancements
03 tome
40 standing dex

None of these are raided out characters.... None of them have all the possible boosts for those stats....

Sooo, rethink your they will be hit the hardest view point. Rogues and monks along with casters will gain the greatest boost because of it.

Angelus_dead
04-13-2010, 12:31 PM
The problem this suggestion addresses was repeated with the recent release of the Sentinels pack, wherein two of the three named weapons have a property that applies a mental ability score to melee combat. (The rapier is cha-hit and the kukri is int-damage). To do it that way has reduced the quantity of characters for whom those weapons could be useful, which in turn reduces the number of players who enjoy the pack (especially if they had to buy it independently).

If this suggestion were taken and the items allowed use of the regular physical stat (if it is better than the mental stat), then the items would still have attractiveness to oddball high-mental builds, without excluding traditional physical-stat combatants from equipping them. For example, the kukri has a special feature so it doesn't interfere with monks being centered. That is potentially pretty cool, except that the kukri also uses intelligence for damage, and it is massively improbable for a monk to have a higher intelligence than strength; in fact, monks probably have a negative intelligence modifier.