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Anthios888
02-10-2010, 03:49 PM
Dungeon Token costs are out of proportion. I know I am not the only one who hopes that Turbine will have a look at the pricing structure before taking the epic model further.

Please Reconsider the Upgrade Costs to Epic Items

The high cost of dungeon tokens is one of the factors discouraging many players from trying out epic content. It also has the side effect of making less-popular items even worse. Even though an epic upgraded Whirlwind might be better than your current sword, you can't put an upgrade on it because you have to save for that Sword of Shadows or Xuum you may never pull, or risk a month of farming to earn your tokens back.

I am speaking as a person who actively runs epic content with an endgame-focused guild and user channel. Even the low drop rates on scrolls, seals, shards, and dragon scales have not deterred me from running epic nightly. Grind has never bothered me, and repeating quests is just part of the fun for me.

Dungeon tokens are another story. I am a huge fan of creative building and gearsets, of using what is available and out in the game to expand your character beyond the typical brand new level 20. And the funny thing is that we have all of these raid tokens rotting in the bank. The way I see epic dungeon tokens, the upgrades fall into three categories:


A few upgrades that are unique and inspire new builds and ways of doing things (Arcane Spell Failure, Max Dex Bonus, Spell Focus, Alignment/Metal).
Others that are more in the "essential" category - taking an epic item and bringing it up to the level it needs to be to compete with old gear (+7 enhancement bonus).
Effects that are very easily duplicated in other places, like exceptional stats, +4 resistance, immunities, etc.


30 tokens for +4 protection? Blindness immunity? If they came in packages, sure, but adding each individually could take a typical build 200-250 tokens. The average epic quest probably takes between a half hour and an hour for a fast run. Taking half of a year for one character to do their gear -- and we're talking without any +3 or +4 tomes -- is just a bit too much.And that's one character!

Consider Dropping More Dungeon Tokens in Longer Quests

The solution to the epic dungeon problem is not just introducing shorter epic dungeons (VON1 and VON2 made dungeon farming easier, but still impractical)

Pro-rating epic dungeons by the difficulty / length would be one step towards solving this problem and encouraging all of the epic dungeons to be sought after. I -might- consider running more ADQ or VON5 if they had three or four tokens compared to VON1's one. Or if Chains of Flame and VON3 had two or three tokens, I would be in there every night to reach my goals faster.
The first step toward pro-rating dungeons was with Vault of Night (VON5), which drops two dungeon tokens instead of the usual one. However, due to its length, the preraid is still skipped over in favor of faster runs that provide more benefit. If this was implemented in a more extensive and generous way, the result would be a more varied gaming experience with more of a sense of accomplishment.

Or, the Obvious -- Lower the Costs by About Half

Current costs:

Colorless

(20 Quest) - +6 stat

(25 Quest + 5 Raid) - +1 Exceptional Stat

Yellow

(30 Quest) Spell Focus:School, Proof Against Poison, Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity, Fear Immunity, Underwater Action, Featherfall, Resist 4, Protect 4, Greater False Life, Wizardry 6

Red

(20 quest) (adds this property to your weapon) - Adamantine, Silver, Cold Iron, Byeshk, Crystal(new type)

(30 Quest) (adds this property to your weapon)- Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic

(15 Raid) - +7 enhancement

Blue

(30 Quest) - 15% ASF, Toughness, +2 luck, +2 max dex bonus, Heavy Fort, +4 Natural Armor

(15 Raid) - +7 Enhancement

Goldeneye
02-10-2010, 03:58 PM
/signed.
A agree with you:

A lot of barely-epic/semi-epic items are be neglected/not upgraded for lack of spare tokens and longer quests should drop more (von5 for example)

However, I understand the Dev's standpoint on "exponential investment for linear return" (example: +1-3 Tomes, AP costs: 2,4,6...)... and epic is no exception.

Samadhi
02-10-2010, 07:43 PM
/signed

and apply to shavarath war trophies as well.

These were not meant to be the limiting factors on creating things. Leave it to the luck of getting all of this stuff to begin with. The intentional grind mechanism - beyond the necessary difficulty in getting the lucky items to begin with - is excessive.

Angelus_dead
02-10-2010, 10:31 PM
Consider Dropping More Dungeon Tokens in Longer Quests
Here's what they can do:

1. Make Epic a separate checkbox from Normal, Hard, and Elite.
2. Epic Hard has double tokens. Epic Elite has triple tokens.

Anthios888
02-10-2010, 10:57 PM
Here's what they can do:

1. Make Epic a separate checkbox from Normal, Hard, and Elite.
2. Epic Hard has double tokens. Epic Elite has triple tokens.

This is even more incentive to farm the short, easy quests and skip the longer, more diverse quests.

It doesn't need to be more of a grind -- it needs to be just slightly less. Even adhering to the exponential principle, 5, 10, and 20 token requirements for the varying tiers of items (5 for featherfall, 20 for arcane spell failure) would still be a lot of work, but would be a reasonable amount to get one upgrade for one character in one week of playing hard.

oberon131313
02-10-2010, 11:03 PM
as someone that has access to the groups for epic (thank you rerolled! :P) but in general chooses not to do them, the points brought up are pretty much spot on. Epic is ok, but to me the thought of grinding through 30 dungeons just to have the ability to put GFL on an item just doesn't appeal to me that much, since I've already got GFL on another slot. There just isn't enough of an incentive to to run it for me.

Auran82
02-10-2010, 11:10 PM
Also allow upgrade gems to drop from epic chests (at a low drop rate), as well as some new rare, bound to account ones (even lower drop rate, thinking Colourless +2 exceptional stat, more yellow options, gems on whatever appropriate colour like +1/2/3 dodge bonus, Seeker, +1 profane bonus to a stat, though that could be confusing with the exceptional bonuses? Just generally more options)

Would like to see some more options, especially on the yellow slot (I honestly wouldn't consider using anything other than GFL and *maybe* fear immunity) and a tiered pricing structure and lowered prices (if not half cost, maybe drop all by 10 tokens)

Auran82
02-10-2010, 11:12 PM
as someone that has access to the groups for epic (thank you rerolled! :P) but in general chooses not to do them, the points brought up are pretty much spot on. Epic is ok, but to me the thought of grinding through 20 dungeons just to have the ability to put GFL on an item just doesn't appeal to me that much, since I've already got GFL on another slot. There just isn't enough of an incentive to to run it for me.

What's worse about that, is that it costs 30 tokens to put GFL on an item, I could swear it was 20 too, lol.

For 30 tokens we should at least be getting the top tier of the upgrade (+4 protection, really?)

oberon131313
02-10-2010, 11:17 PM
What's worse about that, is that it costs 30 tokens to put GFL on an item, I could swear it was 20 too, lol.

For 30 tokens we should at least be getting the top tier of the upgrade (+4 protection, really?)

yeah, I realized that about the same time as you posted.

Kambuk
02-11-2010, 12:09 AM
Add an NPC to trade an epic raid token in for 3-5 dungeon tokens as well.

I end up with way more raid tokens than dungeon tokens and nothing to spend them on...

Kambuk

Uska
02-11-2010, 12:27 AM
Although not running epic stuff currently I agree just reading about it makes me think it need adjusting.

so signed.

Gunga
02-11-2010, 12:29 AM
/signed

Cyr
02-11-2010, 03:05 PM
/signed

Costs in half, more tokens for longer dungeons (atdq, chains, von3...von5 should be 3 IMO), and a trader to trade raid tokens for quest tokens (maybe at a 2 to one rate if the costs are all cut in half also).

valorik
02-16-2010, 04:21 PM
bump and

/signed

Pyromaniac
02-17-2010, 05:18 AM
/signed. Getting very bored with grinding epic dungeon tokens. Adding the bugginess of VON 1 where I've gotten hosed on not getting the token before doesn't help any.

HeavenlyCloud
02-17-2010, 05:28 AM
Add an NPC to trade an epic raid token in for 3-5 dungeon tokens as well.

I end up with way more raid tokens than dungeon tokens and nothing to spend them on...

Kambuk

/signed!