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Malazarti
02-09-2010, 05:17 PM
While I'm very glad that respec options are coming into DDO, my first experience with a Lesser Reincarnation +1 left me a bit upset.

I was a 19Rog/1Ftr and purchased the Lesser Heart +1 with the intention of _adding_ +1Ftr to end up with 18Rog/2Ftr. What I ended up with was 20Rog. That having happened, then presumably I was supposed to take my current "fighter" level at the same level I took it previously I presume (which is why the +1 class changed got "used up" when that level was levelled as a rogue instead of fighter)? I can only presume because it's the one thing that isn't covered well (if at all) in the instructions leading up to doing your reincarnation. I have no idea what level I took my original 1 x level of Ftr at, is it even a remotely reasonable expectation that people would remember them exactly :/

The levelling and choosing which class to level part of the process is very obtuse and unclear.....and I'm very upset because I can't even fix it relatively easily because there are no +3 Hearts in the store (not to mentioned that is really ticks me off I have to spend more money to fix a problem due to shoddy communication/design on the part of the tool used for the process!).

Surely you (the developers) could think of a better way to deal with the character levels (current) and changed levels? Perhaps keep a running tally of how many levels of each class through the process (shown on screen or something) that takes into account all levels over the total amount as opposed to having to be taking the exact same class at the same level as previously taken?

How about allowing an UNDO ALL option should someone get 14 levels in and realize they've run out of level changes and messed up?

Again - I'm very glad that these respec options are being developed, but you are also charging real-world dollars for it, so as a customer I expected it to be a little more polished.

lanthan
02-09-2010, 05:29 PM
When you select a class other than the one you originally took it tells you that it will use up one of your class change credits.

However I do think letting you reset the process any time up until you leave the boat would be nice.

Cratecrusher
02-10-2010, 07:17 AM
When you select a class other than the one you originally took it tells you that it will use up one of your class change credits.
I don't remember it did (except if you take the change at lvl 1), and even if it did, it's clear as sh*t because there's several of that got "cheated" in the process (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=228830).

Which is quite painful with such an expensive item :mad:

Malazarti
02-10-2010, 11:54 AM
When you select a class other than the one you originally took it tells you that it will use up one of your class change credits.

However I do think letting you reset the process any time up until you leave the boat would be nice.


I recall (i think) pretty correctly what it said, and here's the clincher....

Apparently I took my level of fighter at level 2 (I can't even speak to how i'd change my first level to something else....don't recall how one might do that). So, I'm about to take second level. Yes, there was some red text on the panel that said "You have 1 class change remaining". that's it. It didn't say I was going to spend it by taking Rogue as my 2nd level, and I can't remember back to what exact level I took Fighter. So by level 3....I'm no longer seeing any options to change class all the way up to 20.

Sure, at the time I thought...oh, i guess that red text meant this was a "multi-class" level (and what if you had 3 classes by the way, how would you know which of the 3 you needed to take in order to not spend 1 change?), but after that level was taken, there was no way to go back. Once you get to level 20, your character can be totally screwed up by this and you should be allowed a restart.

Also bear in mind, that it costs $11US (or 12 whatever)....and it's just pixels and time. Who cares if the customer wants to restart their LR process 20 times or more, that costs Turbine nothing, and eventually the customer is (hopefully) happy with his LR. It's not like an actual Turbine staff has to baby-sit you through your Lesser Reincarnation.

I love much about this game, but man...Customer Support is stuck in 1992 o.O

Quikster
02-10-2010, 12:02 PM
I recall (i think) pretty correctly what it said, and here's the clincher....

Apparently I took my level of fighter at level 2 (I can't even speak to how i'd change my first level to something else....don't recall how one might do that). So, I'm about to take second level. Yes, there was some red text on the panel that said "You have 1 class change remaining". that's it. It didn't say I was going to spend it by taking Rogue as my 2nd level, and I can't remember back to what exact level I took Fighter. So by level 3....I'm no longer seeing any options to change class all the way up to 20.

Sure, at the time I thought...oh, i guess that red text meant this was a "multi-class" level (and what if you had 3 classes by the way, how would you know which of the 3 you needed to take in order to not spend 1 change?), but after that level was taken, there was no way to go back. Once you get to level 20, your character can be totally screwed up by this and you should be allowed a restart.

Also bear in mind, that it costs $11US (or 12 whatever)....and it's just pixels and time. Who cares if the customer wants to restart their LR process 20 times or more, that costs Turbine nothing, and eventually the customer is (hopefully) happy with his LR. It's not like an actual Turbine staff has to baby-sit you through your Lesser Reincarnation.

I love much about this game, but man...Customer Support is stuck in 1992 o.O

I didnt have any problems with the 2 lr I did (one on lamania and one on live) but I dont see a problem with adding an option to redo lvls2-X as many times as you like while on the boat. Once you leave the boat your stuck with what you chose.

FWIW you can check which levels you took fighter by doing a little research with fred the mindflayer. Its not a solution, but it might avoid some headaches.

redraider
02-10-2010, 12:05 PM
/signed

There should be a note at each level:

Lvl 3 was taken as Rog

Delt
02-10-2010, 12:11 PM
Err...It been a few days since I did my lesser reincarnate, but doesn't the NPC specifically give you dialog options that read something like: "I continued on my path as a xxxx..." and "I left my path..."

I suppose I may be wrong, all I know is I had zero problems swapping out my level - I'm not the brightest person in the world, so it sounds like user error from inattention is the problem, not something Turbine did (though I certainly agree it could be a smoother process).

Impaqt
02-10-2010, 12:23 PM
Something this expensive should have a cancel/restart option for sure.

You should be prompted in the dialog what Class progression you took before. I have a 10FIghter/6Paly/1 Monk I stopped leveling due to game changes....

I'd like to switch him to a 14 Fighter/3Paly/3 Monk.

I should be able to do it with a +3 Heart.... Just switch out 3 paly levels to fighter and then continue 18-20 as 1 FIghter 2 Monk.

But since I didnt write downmy level progression, it will be very dificult to figure out when I have to use my "+'s"

AylinIsAwesome
02-10-2010, 01:16 PM
I'm actually kind of appalled it doesn't already tell you what level you took what as, and that it doesn't have an undo option. It really should have both Turbine.

Lorien_the_First_One
02-10-2010, 01:25 PM
1) It does tell you as you hit each level what you took last time...it just requires you read the screen
2) If you select, even by the "change" options the same class you had before it doesn't use up your +1, this was tested several times on Lama

The OP just didn't read the screen, not paying attention is his fault.

Now, would it be nice if you could always see on your char sheet a page with what class you took at what level and what feats you took at what levels? Yup. You could then screenprint that to help with rebuilds.

With that said, everyone goofs, it would be nice at the very end of the process instead of getting just the AP training option if you were given two choices:

1) I'm happy and ready to head to stormreach (end process and accept LR/GR)?
2) This was all a mistake, help! (take me back to L1 and restart LR/GR process from scratch)

cdbd3rd
02-10-2010, 01:34 PM
1) It does tell you as you hit each level what you took last time...it just requires you read the screen...

Beat me to it.

The first line, iirc, gives your side of the conversation, saying "I trained as a <class>", then gives you options on how to complete your statement.

I'll second that a final summation with a 'keep / toss-it-all' choice would be nice -- However, I'm betting that each level is saved separately as you go, making that a rough bit of coding to backtrack on.

Lorien_the_First_One
02-10-2010, 01:42 PM
Beat me to it.

The first line, iirc, gives your side of the conversation, saying "I trained as a <class>", then gives you options on how to complete your statement.

I'll second that a final summation with a 'keep / toss-it-all' choice would be nice -- However, I'm betting that each level is saved separately as you go, making that a rough bit of coding to backtrack on.

What I'm thinking is they would need to treat it as if you just talked to the friendly druid again... exit you to the login screen, then you have to click the reincarnate button again to restart the process, or something along those lines. I imagine undoing one level would be an insane mess. Of course its probably far more complicated to put you back in "ready to reincarnate mode" than is obvious...

Malazarti
02-10-2010, 02:21 PM
...
The OP just didn't read the screen, not paying attention is his fault.
...


I generally appreciate and agree with most all the advice and comments you post, but I think you're being a bit harsh here. There are enough people reporting that the process seems more obtuse than it need be to indicate that the line between "not paying attention" and "clear communication" isn't so cut-and-dry.

And I'm not whining for the sake of whining. I'm merely trying to point out something that could use a little more tuning to be more friendly to all customers. A win/win situation here would benefit everyone.

Lorien_the_First_One
02-10-2010, 02:28 PM
I generally appreciate and agree with most all the advice and comments you post, but I think you're being a bit harsh here. There are enough people reporting that the process seems more obtuse than it need be to indicate that the line between "not paying attention" and "clear communication" isn't so cut-and-dry.

And I'm not whining for the sake of whining. I'm merely trying to point out something that could use a little more tuning to be more friendly to all customers. A win/win situation here would benefit everyone.

I did it several times on Lama it I TRIED to mess up to test the system. I found it pretty clear.

In my experience leading an IT team, "click without fully reading" is the biggest cause of error and the more warnings you give, the less they are read.

That said, I did go on in my original comments to agree more info and an "undo" would be good additions.

Cratecrusher
02-11-2010, 03:48 AM
I did it several times on Lama it I TRIED to mess up to test the system. I found it pretty clear.
Maybe because you knew where to look :(

Plus (I think that's what happened to me), when the NPC proposes you to answer with "I went on the path of X" when you thought you went for class Y, what do you do ? Especially when that's your second level...

Example : When I created my bard first, I went Bard 1, Bard 2, then Bard 2/Rog 1 then Bard 2/Rog 2.
But what I thought I did was Bard 1 then Bard 1/Rog 1 then Bard 2/Rog 1 then Bard 2/Rog 2

So, I re-create my character as a Bard 1.
Then I speak with the NPC, which gives me the choice of "I went on with bard" or "I chose another class".
How could I know that this "went on with" meant "at first creation I went for Bard 2" instead of "I can chose whatever class at lvl 2 but since Bard was my 1st level, the NPC proposes me to take a second level directly".

That's why I ended up a Bard 1/Rog 3 :(

Spisey
02-11-2010, 03:59 AM
I can't lie this happened to me on my main. I selected lvl 2 ranger instead of lvl 2 brb which apparently was a barb level before as far as progression. So Amazon build is temporarily 7 ranger / 11 barb / 2 rogue. The good thing past the expense, is I now know what level I need to swap back. Goes to show no to pay attention to the specials board in the store rather than looking at the full choices on the reincarnation page. Otherwise I wouldn't have bought a +1 at all but just a LR Wood. :(

GunboatDiplomat
02-11-2010, 08:05 AM
I did it several times on Lama it I TRIED to mess up to test the system. I found it pretty clear.

In my experience leading an IT team, "click without fully reading" is the biggest cause of error and the more warnings you give, the less they are read.

Well you didn't try very hard.

Its good to see the process is crystal clear for someone who works in IT. For some of the rest of us however the process is a little more opaque and its very annoying indeed to spend $12 on something only to discover halfway through that it doesn't work like you thought and you're now going to be stuck with 11 levels of fighter instead of 12, necessitating another $12 to get back to where you started...

The process needs to be changed preferably by giving an option to redo everything until you're happy with it. Even if you underastand everything its all too easy to click a button in error...

Otherwise theres going to be more angry customers and my crystal ball predicts sales will be low.

And please give me another Lesser Reincarnation Turbine!

Anderei
02-11-2010, 08:10 AM
Something this expensive should have a cancel/restart option for sure.


/signed

Steiner-Davion
02-11-2010, 08:21 AM
Something this expensive should have a cancel/restart option for sure.

You should be prompted in the dialog what Class progression you took before. I have a 10FIghter/6Paly/1 Monk I stopped leveling due to game changes....

I'd like to switch him to a 14 Fighter/3Paly/3 Monk.

I should be able to do it with a +3 Heart.... Just switch out 3 paly levels to fighter and then continue 18-20 as 1 FIghter 2 Monk.

But since I didnt write downmy level progression, it will be very dificult to figure out when I have to use my "+'s"

Again that is exactly how the system should work, and it could have worked that way, if they had bothered to ask the community for some input about how the system should work.

Riorik
02-12-2010, 03:27 PM
1) It does tell you as you hit each level what you took last time...it just requires you read the screen



Beat me to it.

The first line, iirc, gives your side of the conversation, saying "I trained as a <class>", then gives you options on how to complete your statement.


I do agree it's there and it tells you what you chose. It is, however, a little unclear. That concerned me enough (because my list of to-be-reincarnated isn't short) that I read as much as I could and then went to Lammania to try it out.

I agree with the posters that the wording and interface could be improved a little. It's still his fault, however, it could be a lot more forgiving.

Rabbi_Hordo
02-12-2010, 03:42 PM
Despite the fact that I found the process ludicrously simplistic and hand-holding I can understand that folks sometimes get clickitis or are in a hurry to finish and don't pay enough attention to warnings in red text (something folks should ask Strakeln about). I fully agree that there should be a Accept/Reject function installed before you leave the boat just in case some made a mistake or even if mistakes were not made one's mind changed about a particular aspect of the build.

9hellz
02-12-2010, 03:50 PM
Perhaps someone who feels comfortable with the process could do a step-by-step walk through of the reincarnation process. Since we don't have an undo option, the only other option is to start posting on the threads and getting a how-to if you're unsure. Which is precisely how Turbine likes to give customer support.

ciep
02-12-2010, 04:10 PM
Maybe because you knew where to look :(

Plus (I think that's what happened to me), when the NPC proposes you to answer with "I went on the path of X" when you thought you went for class Y, what do you do ? Especially when that's your second level...

Example : When I created my bard first, I went Bard 1, Bard 2, then Bard 2/Rog 1 then Bard 2/Rog 2.
But what I thought I did was Bard 1 then Bard 1/Rog 1 then Bard 2/Rog 1 then Bard 2/Rog 2

So, I re-create my character as a Bard 1.
Then I speak with the NPC, which gives me the choice of "I went on with bard" or "I chose another class".
How could I know that this "went on with" meant "at first creation I went for Bard 2" instead of "I can chose whatever class at lvl 2 but since Bard was my 1st level, the NPC proposes me to take a second level directly".

That's why I ended up a Bard 1/Rog 3 :(

This, to me, is an absolutely clear explanation of how this process would be confusing to someone who is changing their second level: this was not the user's fault, it was the fault of ambiguous language resulting in a user making a completely understandable, if undesirable, decision.

I don't understand the need to dismiss the issue as one in which "people just don't read". This isn't an isolated incident, and just because a process works for some -- even most -- people, doesn't mean there isn't clear room for improvement. It should be very difficult to foul up a 1000+ point purchase, and that's currently not the state of affairs.

Lorz
02-12-2010, 04:24 PM
Some people cannot read and follow directions.

1/2 of all people are below average.

I have no issues with TR/GR/LR you might wanna read before you click if not...YMMV.

Sheck2
02-14-2010, 02:26 PM
Some people cannot read and follow directions.

1/2 of all people are below average.

I have no issues with TR/GR/LR you might wanna read before you click if not...YMMV.

Hummm...trying to avoid the flame here as your comments are inaccurate and derisive. I am angry at spending 1200 points for a process that is broken.

There are NO directions. And the information provided is uninformative. Yes I read the True Reincarnation guide first - but LR is NOT TR.

LR follows 'some' patern - assuming its how you originally built the character. As a founder - I built the guy I wa trying to reincarnate in 2007. Then stopped playing in 2008 and came back several months ago. I know another half dozen folks who are thinking about doing this to a toon or two after returning to the game, but now I have to tell them the process is broken.

Josh
02-14-2010, 02:45 PM
I'm actually kind of appalled it doesn't already tell you what level you took what as, and that it doesn't have an undo option. It really should have both Turbine.

I think you can also talk to Fred and see what levels you took when.

Knippers
02-14-2010, 03:03 PM
I think you can also talk to Fred and see what levels you took when.

No, you can see what FEATS you took at what levels. If they are CLASS specific, you will know what level it was.

Josh
02-14-2010, 03:05 PM
No, you can see what FEATS you took at what levels. If they are CLASS specific, you will know what level it was.

Ahh, thanks for the clarification.

joneb1999
02-14-2010, 10:46 PM
Its so easy for different people to see, read and hear things differently if the information is written in a subjective format. There will always be people with the same mindset who will understand and people with a different mindset who wil be confused or misunderstand.

The answer is dont write information meant to guide a wide selection of people subjectively. The guidelines for reincarnation are written a bit too colorful rather than straightforward. Some people will see it for what it is and others won't and its nothing to do with intelligence as it works both ways. Thats why you get groups of people with opposing mindsets. Some may look at a picture of blocks of color and shapes and agree "obviously" with what the artist says he means by it and some may say its meaningless nonsence. Thats very subjective but any information can be written subjectively as its about letting your way of thinking (individual or group ideology) color what you are doing.

stormbolt81
02-15-2010, 02:52 PM
Well i am unhappy with the experience i had with Lesser Reincarnation.

Firstly, I am attempting to reincarnate a toon that is like my 2nd character since Sept 09.
I do not remember the exact sequence of how i levelled him up
Additionally, i have 3 classes like most guys are experiencing problems with.

There is no clear guideline on how to exactly re-level/re-spec our characters or if we have used up a particular attempt, or telling us what we did for the next level or proper indication.

I wrote in a ticket for in-game support, the GMs told me the item worked as is.
I wrote in a ticket for account support, they sent me a "thank you for your feedback".

To be honest, those response are just adding fuel to the flames. The support people are NOT LISTENING.
Instead of admitting to a flawed design of the process, they used politically correct terms to shove the problem away politely, saying that the item is working as it should, and that its the user who has the problem.

There should be controls in place to compare current level specifications, versus new character specification according to switch attempts allowed, rather than advancement sequence. Clearly there is Ill-Logic in this change process, and needs to be rectified immediately.

What i want, after paying 1200 turbine points for this item, is for it to work per original intention = i.e. true ability to respec 1 class level.
I wonder if we can ask for a refund of that 1200 TP, or gain another attempt at this once more.

Lorien_the_First_One
02-15-2010, 03:08 PM
And the information provided is uninformative. Yes I read the True Reincarnation guide first - but LR is NOT TR.

LR follows 'some' patern - assuming its how you originally built the character. As a founder - I built the guy I wa trying to reincarnate in 2007. Then stopped playing in 2008 and came back several months ago. I know another half dozen folks who are thinking about doing this to a toon or two after returning to the game, but now I have to tell them the process is broken

That's just plain BS. I've done it, the first line in the level up dialogue is to retrain in your current class and says something like "i learned the ways of the warrier and trained as a fighter" (or whatever class you originally trained at that level).

Then the next 3 lines are basically "I trained as a melee" "I trained as a caster" "I trained as a specialist".

The first line tells you what you took, and you click on it to do what you did last time. The next 3 let you choose an alternate.

The process isn't broken, it just requires a tiny bit of reading skills

Lorz
02-15-2010, 03:30 PM
Hummm...trying to avoid the flame here as your comments are inaccurate and derisive. I am angry at spending 1200 points for a process that is broken.

There are NO directions. And the information provided is uninformative. Yes I read the True Reincarnation guide first - but LR is NOT TR.

LR follows 'some' patern - assuming its how you originally built the character. As a founder - I built the guy I wa trying to reincarnate in 2007. Then stopped playing in 2008 and came back several months ago. I know another half dozen folks who are thinking about doing this to a toon or two after returning to the game, but now I have to tell them the process is broken.

It was not a flame....those are all facts just as the ones are below......the LR process provides the information about what you took previously. If you do not read this and understand the words...then we cannot help you.

It provides the information.

You just have to be able to read and comprehend...same problem im seeing in this thread.

Read and Comprehend!

Its gonna make understanding this post a problem for you (but not the rest of the world).

Lorien_the_First_One
02-15-2010, 03:33 PM
/And 1/2 of all people are below average...guess where you fall.

Maybe that is the problem... half the users can't figure out the flavor text. Maybe Turbine needs to remove the flavor text like they removed it at the regular trainers since some people apparently couldn't figure it out

morky
02-15-2010, 06:53 PM
If I do a lesser reincarnation will i still be a 28 guild or a 32 since i have the favor?

Lorien_the_First_One
02-15-2010, 06:54 PM
If I do a lesser reincarnation will i still be a 28 guild or a 32 since i have the favor?

Still 28. If you hold off until they release Greater it will upgrade you to 32.

Sheck2
02-16-2010, 04:54 PM
That's just plain BS. I've done it....

The process isn't broken, it just requires a tiny bit of reading skills

If it was so well written, explanatory, and obvious...why are people complaining about it? It is not well written and not obvious.

The standard is higher because it costs 1200 points ($14.40).

Its a poor design.

Sheck2
02-16-2010, 04:56 PM
/And 1/2 of all people are below average...guess where you fall.

You didn't look up derisive did you?

Rabbi_Hordo
02-17-2010, 07:29 AM
If it was so well written, explanatory, and obvious...why are people complaining about it? It is not well written and not obvious.

The standard is higher because it costs 1200 points ($14.40).

Its a poor design.

Well, yesterday was clinic day and since I work at a Pediatric Caridiologist I asked several of the patients to check this out.

We had 19 patients and 6 were too young to read, leaving 13.

Of the 13, 3 declined to participate, leaving 10.

Of the 10, 4 were in High School and 6 in Middle School. All 6 of the Middle Schoolers got the concept perfectly and said it was very simple and easy to read and comprehend. 2 of the High Schoolers agreed but 2 kept wanting to see what was next on the screen and did not allow themselves the time it really required to simply read the statements and, thus, would have made mistakes.

Take it for what you will...this is written for a TEEN rated game. Since most High Schoolers across the country enter college with a reading level lower than their last completed grade I am concluding this is completely user error. The text is so clear a 5th grader has no problem with it.

Cratecrusher
02-18-2010, 02:50 AM
The text is so clear a 5th grader has no problem with it.
And what about foreign players ? Are you gonna say they should "learn english or go back to where they belong" or some similar sh*t ? :mad:

Plus your example proves nothing, based on such a small number of testers.


If it was so well written, explanatory, and obvious...why are people complaining about it? It is not well written and not obvious.

The standard is higher because it costs 1200 points ($14.40).
Exactly.

Dendrix
02-18-2010, 05:18 AM
I tried the process yesterday on my bard/fighter/rogue and I found the process very easy and intuitive to use. I took it slow and read what was on the screen. I thought about what I was doing before I clicked. I had already re-planned my character out in full detail with the changes.

The first choice listed is what you chose last time, then you get to choose melee/spell/specialist in much the same way as you got to choose at character creation time.

Your 1st level you have already skipped past at characte re-creation.

Things that would improve the process:
1) Bring up the character screen when you click/talk to the lady on the airship every single time. This shows you exactly where you are before you do anything.

2) Having the ability to do a printout of your character from the druid at the start of the process (save as charactername.html) something simple like....
Level Class FeatsChosen SpellsChosen
then open up the ingame browser and load that file into it when you get onto the ship.

dmslasher
02-18-2010, 06:51 PM
i think the leveling should have been handled with a drag and drop setup that didnt updated your char until you were finished modifying it. and with that drag and drop setup they could make it easier for them to insert a redo option so that its not saved and not having 2 undo saved information.

GunboatDiplomat
02-19-2010, 06:23 AM
Well, yesterday was clinic day and since I work at a Pediatric Caridiologist I asked several of the patients to check this out.

We had 19 patients and 6 were too young to read, leaving 13.

Of the 13, 3 declined to participate, leaving 10.

Of the 10, 4 were in High School and 6 in Middle School. All 6 of the Middle Schoolers got the concept perfectly and said it was very simple and easy to read and comprehend. 2 of the High Schoolers agreed but 2 kept wanting to see what was next on the screen and did not allow themselves the time it really required to simply read the statements and, thus, would have made mistakes.

Take it for what you will...this is written for a TEEN rated game. Since most High Schoolers across the country enter college with a reading level lower than their last completed grade I am concluding this is completely user error. The text is so clear a 5th grader has no problem with it.

Well seeing as you've just published this elaborate clinical trial I think its time for a little 'peer-review.' Did you get any of the children to go through the process themselves unaided? Did any of the children actually understand the DDO rules system or were they just following your leading questions?

Methodology of trial: poor
Data collection techniques: poor
Evidence Quality: poor
Clinical Trial Summary Conclusions: Unreliable
Motivations of Researcher: Highly subjective and probably biased towards a positive result.

You and the other trolls on this thread can insult us all you like Mr. Rabbi Hordo (if that is your real name). This doesn't change the fact that the lesser reincarnation presentation is poor enough to confuse a number of people of at least average intelligence and education. This is not helpful.

God help the children you're dealing with if you think that because everyones minds don't work in the same way, that we perceive and deal with issues differently that this somehow makes people idiots.

Btw, its Cardiologist.

Velexia
02-19-2010, 07:13 AM
I recently won a +3 Lesser Druidic Heart of Wood in the egg hunt and I afraid to use it.

Originally, I wanted to change my level 17 Cleric into a Level 20 Favored Soul (when she hits 20), but now I have learned that this is nearly impossible (unless I take her last 2 levels as Favored Soul and then buy 5 more +3's... ugh, or True Reincarnate... ugh).

Now I am pondering fixing up some old characters I had turned into banks... I just don't know. It's very unclear how this junk works and from what I have read, easy to screw up because it is programmed terribly.

1. Can I change the class of my first level (with Lesser, Greater?)
2. Will I ever be able to change all 20 levels in one go, without grinding?
3. Who keeps track of when they took what level of a class?!
4. Why isn't there an oops button? (Restart from scratch before finish)
5. Why does it take more XP when you True Reincarnate? I loved this game because of how little the grind was felt. That love is flying away.
6. Do you have to be level 20 to do a Lesser or Greater Reincarnate?

Velexia
02-19-2010, 07:18 AM
Btw, its Cardiologist.

Btw, it's "it's" =P
(lol, negative rep, really... you realize "=P" means I am being playful right...? buncha tightwads =P)

Lorien_the_First_One
02-19-2010, 07:23 AM
1. Can I Change The Class Of My First Level (with Lesser, Greater?) yes, With Either
2. Will I Ever Be Able To Change All 20 Levels In One Go, Without Grinding? doesn't Sound Like It, Only +1/+3 Have Been Discussed By Devs
3. Who Keeps Track Of When They Took What Level Of A Class?!you Don't Need To. It Tells You What You Chose Last Time At Each Level As You Relevel. The People That Say They That It Doesn't Simply Didn't Read Their Screen.
4. Why Isn't There An Oops Button? (restart From Scratch Before Finish)there Should Be, That Is The Main Problem With Lr/gr
5. Why Does It Take More Xp When You True Reincarnate? I Loved This Game Because Of How Little The Grind Was Felt. That Love Is Flying Away.in Theory, Because It Is Slightly More Powerful...i Think It Should Be Less Xp To Tr Than It Is, But In The Lama Forums People Actually Argued It Shoudl Be More...some Players Seem To Think Grind = Good Lol
6. Do You Have To Be Level 20 To Do A Lesser Or Greater Reincarnate?nope, You Can Do It Any Time You Want And As Often As You Want (well, 1 Week Wait In Between Each One) Only Tr Requires L20

:d

Cratecrusher
02-19-2010, 07:35 AM
3. Who keeps track of when they took what level of a class?!
Don't believe blindly what Lorien says. Too many people got screwed over LR for it to be considered "perfectly clear". Sure, being cautious helps, but, well... :(

If your character is recent enough, you may have some useful information on http://my.ddo.com/character/YOURSERVER/YOURCHARACTER/log/ (you'll see a log of everything your character has ever done, and if you filter it by class, you'll then see all the levels you took (from 2 to wherever you are - your very first level is not on it) and in the right order...).


4. Why isn't there an oops button? (Restart from scratch before finish)
Yep why ? :(

Velexia
02-19-2010, 07:35 AM
Thanks Lorien ^_^ I suppose I can start the process on my Cleric to Favored Soul... Although it's totally going to gimp her until I finish -shudder-



If your character is recent enough... Katran, my Cleric is as old as Lhazaar, and older than Gygax's Memorial.

GunboatDiplomat
02-19-2010, 07:38 AM
Btw, it's "it's" =P

Correct but then I'm not the one presenting myself as a medical professional conduscting research in order to insult other members of the community.

oops another typo!

Cratecrusher
02-19-2010, 07:39 AM
Katran, my Cleric is as old as Lhazaar, and older than Gygax's Memorial.
That's what I feared :(

Good luck and tell us how it went ;)

Velexia
02-19-2010, 07:54 AM
Correct but then I'm not the one presenting myself as a medical professional conduscting research in order to insult other members of the community.

oops another typo!

I was only teasing anyway =P (but I don't buy your typo, more of a braino ~_^)


That's what I feared :(

Good luck and tell us how it went ;)


It's alright, she's at least pure (17 Cleric)

Rabbi_Hordo
02-19-2010, 09:47 AM
Well seeing as you've just published this elaborate clinical trial I think its time for a little 'peer-review.' Did you get any of the children to go through the process themselves unaided? Did any of the children actually understand the DDO rules system or were they just following your leading questions?

Methodology of trial: poor
Data collection techniques: poor
Evidence Quality: poor
Clinical Trial Summary Conclusions: Unreliable
Motivations of Researcher: Highly subjective and probably biased towards a positive result.

You and the other trolls on this thread can insult us all you like Mr. Rabbi Hordo (if that is your real name). This doesn't change the fact that the lesser reincarnation presentation is poor enough to confuse a number of people of at least average intelligence and education. This is not helpful.

God help the children you're dealing with if you think that because everyones minds don't work in the same way, that we perceive and deal with issues differently that this somehow makes people idiots.

Btw, its Cardiologist.

Typos aside, but yes, all the children who participated (and now some of their parents are playing DDO!) did the process themselves. They had no problem doing that. My point being not that intelligence has anything to do with the process, but that simply an interest and paying attention goes a long way. There really is, almost categorically, no possibility of messing up the process if one takes ones time and reads the prompts. They were shown the computer and told to hit the reincarnate button (all of the toons involved had a +1Lesser Heart) and go from there. Without exception they noticed the red text indicating that they had a level change available. Some exercised that option early, and other late, but they all noticed it as it was a truly blatant message. It is funny that you actually think that an ad hoc impromptu poll is somewhat to be taken as authoritative and react in the way you did. It was simply showing that in no way is it possible for even the most ignorant and uneducated among us to fail to notice the red text warning of the level change, and of the ease of comprehension and level of elementary knowledge of English is required for properly completing the process.

Rabbi_Hordo
02-19-2010, 09:53 AM
And what about foreign players ? Are you gonna say they should "learn english or go back to where they belong" or some similar sh*t ? :mad:

Plus your example proves nothing, based on such a small number of testers.


Exactly.


Absolutely not.
I fully understand the issue with English as a Second/Third/Etc. language and if that were the issue being discussed then I would certainly support assistance in that case.
I, myself, have problems with several of the languages I read/write and frequently have to refer to dictionaries to make sure I understand what is being said.
The only thing that my example proves is that it really is difficult, if one pays attention, to make an error in the LR+1/+3 process.
As for speakers of a foreign language, I would love to have an option to have text in the game printed in a variety of languages and we could select the one that we understand best. However, since that was not the issue at hand, take it for what you will.

+1 Rep!

GunboatDiplomat
02-19-2010, 10:51 AM
Typos aside, but yes, all the children who participated (and now some of their parents are playing DDO!) did the process themselves. They had no problem doing that. My point being not that intelligence has anything to do with the process, but that simply an interest and paying attention goes a long way. There really is, almost categorically, no possibility of messing up the process if one takes ones time and reads the prompts. They were shown the computer and told to hit the reincarnate button (all of the toons involved had a +1Lesser Heart) and go from there. Without exception they noticed the red text indicating that they had a level change available. Some exercised that option early, and other late, but they all noticed it as it was a truly blatant message. It is funny that you actually think that an ad hoc impromptu poll is somewhat to be taken as authoritative and react in the way you did. It was simply showing that in no way is it possible for even the most ignorant and uneducated among us to fail to notice the red text warning of the level change, and of the ease of comprehension and level of elementary knowledge of English is required for properly completing the process.

Screenshot or it never happened Rabbi Hordo. If that is your real name.

Oh and thanks for the neagative rep, real mature.

Rabbi_Hordo
02-19-2010, 12:17 PM
Screenshot or it never happened Rabbi Hordo. If that is your real name.

Oh and thanks for the neagative rep, real mature.

1. Of course it isn't my real name, and you cannot screenshot RL.
2. I don't think I can neg rep yet...so look elsewhere...

Lorien_the_First_One
02-19-2010, 12:26 PM
Thanks Lorien ^_^ I suppose I can start the process on my Cleric to Favored Soul... Although it's totally going to gimp her until I finish -shudder-

Katran, my Cleric is as old as Lhazaar, and older than Gygax's Memorial.

You are taking her all the way from Cleric to FvS? Might be cheaper/easier to TR or just start a new Vet character lol

I recently TR'd my 28pt 2006 first character cleric/pali into an FvS. She was parked at 16 having been passed by her replacement cleric, but I decided to level her to 20 and try out the TR thing. It's been fun, give you a slight boost... It's a lot more work obviously by 17 levels is a lot of hearts, $, and a lot of time to trade out.

Just read carefully. If she is old I'm assuming she isn't on one of those silly paths. That means you will be offered 4 choices on every level up, one will be what you did before, then three generic options to change (caster/specialist/melee). It's flavor text "I followed the path of war and trained as a fighter" type text, not "I took fighter" but it isn't hard to figure out.

Delacroix21
02-20-2010, 04:55 PM
Not being able to change your race or allignment really limits its usefullness.


DDO Devs, wanna sell more of these?

Allow the player to change their race and allignment (keep +1-3 class rule the same).

Praper
02-20-2010, 09:50 PM
I'll say that I would love a refund of the TP I bought to purchase a +1 lesser heart of wood. I spent $20 cash and ended up with a build that I did not want, and if I do want my character to be at least as useful as it was before I Lesser Reincarnated, I have to wait a level to do so.

The instructions were poor for something that nearly everyone who uses it will be having a "micro"transaction (I don't call $16 bucks or so "micro")

Put a different way, I will end up, due to the poor execution of the Lesser Reincarnation system, having paid $20 for absolutely nothing. I just gave $20 to Turbine and got nothing in return. I feel a bit ripped off in this instance.

I think the reason Turbine has so many customers who feel the same as I do - as evidenced by the quantity of posts in these threads - is the way they chose to execute the process. This is a potential in-game, findable, roleplay-ey type loot and effects your character. Much like the way that Turbine does not give information on quests, walk-thrus, how the Stone of Change works, etc., they did not explain much about the Lesser Reincarnation. The reason for this is pretty standard - it's part of the game, the players need to discover it for themselves. That would be a very valid reason to execute it the way that it was executed - learn by trial and error. HOWEVER - a big however - the only reason this was released was as a profit source for Turbine. Let's be real - based on the loot tables, there's some random probability that the Heart of Wood will drop and be used by players is so small as to make it almost not worth the time to implement so complex a process. However, with it costing about $16 worth of points (purchasable in a $20 "micro"-transaction) they can make a significant amount of money by selling it. It will cost even MORE if people have to find out how to use it by trial-and-error! /Evil cackle and rubbing of hands together greedily. Thunderclap in the background.

It could likely go unstated that the opposite effect is having, and the number of upset players who anticipated being able to fix their character and ending up with a fugged character or the same thing they started with, Turbine will likely lose the opportunity to make as much money off this process as they wanted, and they'll have fewer satisfied customers.

I'm really happy, in general, with DDO. This particular issue is pretty dear to me, as I'm all about value. I would appreciate if DDO would, for value's sake, offer myself and any other player who feels a bit ripped off by this otherwise reputable game some "fix".

Some suggestions:
1) Return the character effected to the state it was before Lesser Reincarnation was used. I'm sure the system logs this in some character folder, c'mon.
1a) Then give the character a choice/one of:
I) Get the TP returned. Unlikely.
II) Get the Heart of wood the Lesser Reincarnation item is called and a link to an actual usage instruction.

Seriously, fix this, you can do it before the problem gets worse. Turn off Lesser Reincarnation, fix the problem, and fix the people messed by the problem. The problem, so there's no misidentification, is just the LACK OF CLARITY OF INSTRUCTIONS on using something that costs alot, via "micro"transaction.

Thanks, Sincerely,
Player of

ARGO:
Kinsi
Xinter

lammbo
02-25-2010, 02:40 PM
Hello, I registered for the forum just to post to this thread. As the new guy, I'm sure some of you more infuriated players will flame what I have to say, but I thought the text was extremely clear EXCEPT at first level. Since I only started playing DDO in Sept 09, I already knew which levels I took and when, so it was fairly straight forward. However, I must agree that if you READ what the choices were, it was telling you which class you took next and offered a choice to change the class selection for that level by NOT CHOOSING "I trained as a XXXXXX", the top choice in the list. Now having said this, let me present why I am unhappy with the process.


This is basically what I sent to DDO In-game support: (Modified slightly because I posted this on my guild's website and copied this from there)

I wanted to make you all aware of a potential bug with +1 Minor Reincarnation.

I recently decided to change my main, Snodgrass, to pure wizard. Since the +3 is not yet available, I decided to use a +1, wait the required 1 week cool down and then do the second. I read the entire posting concerning the process and felt safe in doing so.

I ran through the first time to change my last level from rogue to wizard. It was fairly painless up until it came to the spell selection screen for that level that I changed. It said that I must select 0 spells and there was 1 spell available to select. Well, the reincarnate guide said spellbooks remained unchanged when reincarnating, so I thought nothing about it and finished out the process.

After my 1 week cool down, I ran my second reincarnate to change my 1st level from rogue to wizard. Same process, same results on spell selection. Now, I would like to note here that if I had been pure wizard from the start, I would have been able to select 2 spells every level after 1st. I felt cheated from 4 spells that could not be obtained from scrolls and scribed but was willing to live with being able to go pure wizard with a minor loss.

Except now I just capped XP for 11th level, but when I went to level, much to my dismay, 0 Spells selectable!!! And now that I have access to 6th level arcane, there are 6 spells available that I should be able to choose from. So I canceled the level and put in a ticket to in-game support so they could look at the toon and fix the issue.

EDIT: I do agree there should be a review screen at the end of the process where you can accept changes or start over.
EDIT 2: It's been 3 days since I opened the ticket and I haven't even received an acknowledgment that they are looking into it. I've been an IT guy for almost 20 years and I can honestly say this is the worst support system I have ever seen.

HumanJHawkins
02-25-2010, 03:28 PM
Well, yesterday was clinic day and since I work at a Pediatric Caridiologist I asked several of the patients to check this out.

Your experiment was interesting, but had one flaw... People will often interpret text very differently if they believe they have previous experience with the text.

For example, I have made lvl 4 (veteran status) characters both for myself, and experimentally using the "build paths". I haven't done lesser reincarnate because I was afraid I would waste my +3 heart due to this very issue.

But from what I understand of the text, I might have misinterpreted it to be asking if I wanted to follow a build path, rather than my past life path. It sounds like it uses the same location and wording in the text as that. A fresh pair of eyes would not have this confusion and might be much more likely to succeed.

Lorien makes two valid points. 1, that when people don't follow directions bad things will happen. And 2, that the more warnings you throw up, the more people tune them out. But that does not excuse bad design... It is possible, if one puts them-self in the position and mindset of the different people who will use a product, to predict and resolve many of these kind of issues in advance.

Final point though... Be careful what you ask for. Quality takes time. If you don't want to see anything really cool released until Turbine has spent the time to get it really right and safe, you might not see another update until 2012.

Rabbi_Hordo
02-25-2010, 03:47 PM
Your experiment was interesting, but had one flaw... People will often interpret text very differently if they believe they have previous experience with the text.

For example, I have made lvl 4 (veteran status) characters both for myself, and experimentally using the "build paths". I haven't done lesser reincarnate because I was afraid I would waste my +3 heart due to this very issue.

But from what I understand of the text, I might have misinterpreted it to be asking if I wanted to follow a build path, rather than my past life path. It sounds like it uses the same location and wording in the text as that. A fresh pair of eyes would not have this confusion and might be much more likely to succeed.

Lorien makes two valid points. 1, that when people don't follow directions bad things will happen. And 2, that the more warnings you throw up, the more people tune them out. But that does not excuse bad design... It is possible, if one puts them-self in the position and mindset of the different people who will use a product, to predict and resolve many of these kind of issues in advance.

Final point though... Be careful what you ask for. Quality takes time. If you don't want to see anything really cool released until Turbine has spent the time to get it really right and safe, you might not see another update until 2012.

Oh, you are absolutely correct. Which is why they did the LRs individually and on different toons (good thing I had enough trash toons and TPs to afford this, what with 6 accounts spread out amongst my family). But your final point is mine as well...take your time and read what is said. If you do both of those things, unless as has been pointed out you are not a native English speaker or have fluent proficiency, you cannot make a mistake.

joneb1999
02-28-2010, 03:07 PM
Typos aside, but yes, all the children who participated (and now some of their parents are playing DDO!) did the process themselves. They had no problem doing that. My point being not that intelligence has anything to do with the process, but that simply an interest and paying attention goes a long way. There really is, almost categorically, no possibility of messing up the process if one takes ones time and reads the prompts. They were shown the computer and told to hit the reincarnate button (all of the toons involved had a +1Lesser Heart) and go from there. Without exception they noticed the red text indicating that they had a level change available. Some exercised that option early, and other late, but they all noticed it as it was a truly blatant message. It is funny that you actually think that an ad hoc impromptu poll is somewhat to be taken as authoritative and react in the way you did. It was simply showing that in no way is it possible for even the most ignorant and uneducated among us to fail to notice the red text warning of the level change, and of the ease of comprehension and level of elementary knowledge of English is required for properly completing the process.

How do you expect anyone to believe you? For one you should be doing your job in that time and not doing research ona computer game and if you really are wasting your time that way then you are not to be taken seriously. You should be struck off. More than that what I read doesnt even seem entirely significant to some of the points being debated. I dont have any faith in what you are saying.

joneb1999
02-28-2010, 03:17 PM
Just for the record Turbine or whoever is responsible I am quitting paying money for soemthing that is flawed as it is. Im not going to pay pennies then if i have a problem be told it is as it should be and not get any help to remedy my situation.

Rabbi_Hordo
03-01-2010, 07:46 AM
How do you expect anyone to believe you? For one you should be doing your job in that time and not doing research ona computer game and if you really are wasting your time that way then you are not to be taken seriously. You should be struck off. More than that what I read doesnt even seem entirely significant to some of the points being debated. I dont have any faith in what you are saying.

That's fine. My boss was in on it and we decided to have some fun. Yes, I talk about DDO to my friends and coworkers...yet to convince any of the coworkers to try it yet but there is still time.
As for your not getting the point, it was simply to examine the facility to understand the contextual color-text involved with the LR+1. It was remarkably easy for these children who participated. It was data for take it as you will, really. I took it to show that as long as one were paying attention (which I am certain to do when I spend money or TPs) it is rather difficult to be thrown off course in the course of an LR+1.
Granted, English as one's second, third or more language is excepted of course.
Does this change the fact that some people have had a problem with LR+1? No.
Does this change the fact that some few of those people have complained about it to both Turbine and the community? No.
Does this absolve those people from the responsibility of paying attention to what they are doing long enough to enjoy the easy-button that Turbine has given them for respec of their character in opposition to the old way of a reroll? No.

It seems that the only reason folks are still complaining about this is not the fact that they lost points or money on a ludicrously simple easy-button that they made an error using, but that they won't take responsibility for not paying enough attention in the first place thereby causing their error. If you put coins in a Vending machine and press the Coke button and Coke comes out but you really wanted a Dr. Pepper it is not the fault of the folks whose vending machine it is that you didn't press the Dr. Pepper button, it is your fault. Complain, whine and gnash the teeth all you want, it still comes down to looking in the mirror and admitting one's own faults. If that lesson comes at the expense of a few Turbine Points, so be it. Learn the lesson and don't make the same mistake twice.

Cratecrusher
03-02-2010, 02:26 AM
If that lesson comes at the expense of a few Turbine Points, so be it.
"A few", ok.
But 1200 TP is not "a few".

Greydeath
03-02-2010, 03:09 AM
This is Turbine: they will **** you around to make (or save) a buck.

The more important the feature is worse the UI and less documentation; the more useless the feature is the better it is documented and interfaced - honestly have you not reached the same conclusion yet?!?!? :rolleyes:

The dialogue does properly indicate what was taken even if it is not overly clear. It can take multiple readings to follow it through, but ultimately it is there. This is much like the cake genies and trying to get a +1 WIS tome... the confirmation question was a double negative and ****ed most people right up - while this was utterly unnecessary it did prove their point about being wise :eek:


Of course there should be an undo/reset button – that much is obvious and was reported repeatedly on Lameia, but given that it has taken FOUR (_4_) ****ING YEARS to even get this pathetic respect option, expecting it to be improved anytime soon seems unlikely – especially given that we are STILL waiting for Greaters…

Dendrix
03-02-2010, 03:19 AM
Seriously, fix this, you can do it before the problem gets worse. Turn off Lesser Reincarnation, fix the problem, and fix the people messed by the problem. The problem, so there's no misidentification, is just the LACK OF CLARITY OF INSTRUCTIONS on using something that costs alot, via "micro"transaction.


There is no problem. There is no lack of clarity.

All you have to do it take your time and read what is on the screen.

It's really simple but you have to read the words on the screen and then think for a few moments.

Choice 1: chose what you were before
Choice 2: melee
Choice 3: spellcaster
Choice 4: specialist

Cratecrusher
03-02-2010, 03:55 AM
Choice 1: chose what you were before
Yep... "before" as in "in your previous incarnation" or as in "in your previous level" ? :(

phalaeo
03-02-2010, 04:14 AM
I agree that they could make it a lot clearer for those who don't remember what level they took what.

For anyone who is reading this thread as reference, you can go to MyDDO, look up your character and use the filter to tell you what level you took when.

Lanuric
03-02-2010, 04:22 AM
Here is my post.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2795923&posted=1#post2795923


1. I read all I could on Lesser Reincarnation. I thought I understood the process.
2. I read everything on the screen, did what I believed was the right choice.
3. Still ended up with a broken character.

Granted it was a +3 Heart, not a +1.

It seems, I should have swapped out my monk levels at 17 and 18 for Rogue, then could have used a +1 to change my first level to Rogue a week later. Now its going to take me 3 +3 Hearts of Wood to fix him. I may be able to buy them from store if they cheap enough, but I am lucky to have my VIP subscription. Unless I loot the +3s, I may end up (shudder) having to TR him. And I only just got him to 20. I don't play nearly enough anymore to level to 20 in a month after a TR as some of my friends can/have!

Rabbi_Hordo
03-02-2010, 07:50 AM
"A few", ok.
But 1200 TP is not "a few".


Even more reason to take your time to read it carefully and be patient. If 1200 is not a few points to you and is expensive, then treat the whole thing as you would any other expensive undertaking: with the care due to it.

Cratecrusher
03-02-2010, 09:09 AM
treat the whole thing as you would any other expensive undertaking: with the care due to it.
That I did, and it wasn't enough...

In addition, I didn't have any Veteran character creation experience at the time (as both procedures have things in common) which didn't help :(

Hybro
03-02-2010, 10:19 AM
So, I re-create my character as a Bard 1. Then I speak with the NPC, which gives me the choice of "I went on with bard" or "I chose another class".
How could I know that this "went on with" meant "at first creation I went for Bard 2" instead of "I can chose whatever class at lvl 2 but since Bard was my 1st level, the NPC proposes me to take a second level directly".

Its pretty sad how some people can't see how this could be confusing. I certainly wouldn't want to have to guess what Turbine means by the current language when there is no way to undo a mistake. The way it reads now, if I had no exposure to this process or forum thread, I could figure out what it most likely means, but I wouldn't have been 100% certain about it.

A clear description would be:

"I was a <class> in my previous life at this level." With two choices given: "Keep the same <class> choice as my previous life for this level" or "I want to change to a different class for this level."

Rabbi_Hordo
03-02-2010, 11:48 AM
That I did, and it wasn't enough...

In addition, I didn't have any Veteran character creation experience at the time (as both procedures have things in common) which didn't help :(


Dommage. :(

Better luck next time!

Cratecrusher
03-03-2010, 02:37 AM
And I'm among the lucky ones, as the build I have now is not so bad despite not being whatI wanted.

MRH
03-03-2010, 03:36 AM
Based on what everyone is saying.....seems like instead of a screen with 4 choices 20 times, they should have had one window popup with your lvls listed from 1-20 and a "change" button next to each lvl.

1 - Paladin [change]
2 - Paladin [change]
3 - Rogue [change]

etc..... oh ya and the [Accept] [Restart] [Cancel] buttons.

Then all you would have had to do is click the change button for the lvl you want to change. Do they not brainstorm in their meetings ? LOL

GunboatDiplomat
03-03-2010, 06:29 AM
How do you expect anyone to believe you? For one you should be doing your job in that time and not doing research on a computer game and if you really are wasting your time that way then you are not to be taken seriously. You should be struck off. More than that what I read doesnt even seem entirely significant to some of the points being debated. I dont have any faith in what you are saying.

Its not necessary to disbelieve Rabbi Hordo caried out his so-called 'experiment.' Personally I believe he probably did. It doesn't prove anything though, it still just his opinion that the process is clear and it is user error that is the reason for the mistakes so many have made with the Lesser TR's.

Sure, he tries to dress it up this charade as a medical experiment to lend his opinions authenticity and weight. But for anyone who is the least bit familiar with real clinical trials this was so poorly executed its like a parody of bad science. Lets just say hes not going to get published in the Lancet (http://www.thelancet.com/home) any time soon with this sort of shoddy work.

Rabbi Hordo is entitled to his opinions of course as are we all. Although I'm beginning to suspect this is not his preal name (which adds a further level of suspicion...).

PopeJual
03-03-2010, 07:03 AM
I'm exceptionally happy with Lesser Reincarnation +1.

I started out with a Paladin 15/Rogue 2 with the Rogue levels at 1 and 4. I knew that I was going to Reincarnate, so I took my 18th level as Rogue to make Paladin 15/Rogue 3. I then LR+1ed and changed that 4th level to Paladin.

I'm now the very pleased owner of a Paladin 18/Rogue 2 (I've leveled since then) and I'm delighted to have a character with TWF (couldn't hit the Dex before), appropriate Strength, more skill points, correctly placed skill points and about 75% more DPS than his previously gimped incarnation.

Thanks for giving us a way to fix our screw ups, Turbine!

...and for anyone who re-gimps themselves in the process of reincarnating, just try again next week.

Tarackian
03-03-2010, 12:02 PM
As the leader of an IT team you should have realized by now that it doesn't matter what is right or wrong it is what the CUSTOMER perceives is right or wrong that matters. The customer pays the bills in business, they are the bottom line.



I did it several times on Lama it I TRIED to mess up to test the system. I found it pretty clear.

In my experience leading an IT team, "click without fully reading" is the biggest cause of error and the more warnings you give, the less they are read.

That said, I did go on in my original comments to agree more info and an "undo" would be good additions.

NuclearCoffee
03-03-2010, 05:33 PM
I had a 20 Pal with a level Rog, was able to get rid of the splash that I should have not took. I had no problem what so ever. there was a cancel button didnt you see that??

Cratecrusher
03-04-2010, 03:01 AM
for anyone who re-gimps themselves in the process of reincarnating, just try again next week.
Good for you, but not anyone can afford 1200 TP per week.


I had a 20 Pal with a level Rog, was able to get rid of the splash that I should have not took. I had no problem what so ever. there was a cancel button didnt you see that??
There's a cancel button for the current level not for the whole process.
Plus if you go from X19/Y1 to X20, well, I don't see where you can have a problem...

maxhyde
03-14-2010, 02:51 PM
I also blew my character up and it is more embarrassing than anger-inducing. I will agree it is my fault and hate the fact I will spend 2390 points over the next 2 weeks fixing my mistake. In my position the 2 weeks is more annoying than the point cost.
I also agree until you leave the airship it wouldn't be so bad to have an undo button to reverse all changes since hitting the airship. Something like 'Are you happy with the flight/changes you have made since boarding' as an exit?

Hopefully Turbine realizes that this would eliminate some frustration on the user end. Especially annoying when you only wanted a slight change to build and will have to wait 1 week to put everything back and another week to make your intended changes.

Later

7Seconds
03-21-2010, 08:11 PM
GR'd my 17th lvl wizard toon to upgrade to a 32pt build. Now I no longer get the 2 "free" spells when I level. just made 18th and when you get to the spell selection portion for wizards it reads that I have 0 spell to select. Anyone else have this issue w/ LR or GR?

Cratecrusher
03-22-2010, 03:57 AM
Anyone else have this issue w/ LR or GR?
Sadly yes.
Didn't happen to me but several people have complained about this in the "Reincarnation" forums :(

TechNoFear
03-22-2010, 05:09 AM
I'll second that a final summation with a 'keep / toss-it-all' choice would be nice -- However, I'm betting that each level is saved separately as you go, making that a rough bit of coding to backtrack on.

A total undo would be the best option.

If this is a problem (unable to cache data until confirmed) then just add an extra confirmation screen to the property page used in the leveling process.

Make it a simple 'Confirm Heart of Wood Charge Use' at the start of the leveling process (and only show the new dialog if this level is using a level change 'charge').

Easy to code and would solve many of these complaints.

krud
04-02-2010, 11:40 PM
I just finished a LR+1. After reading this thread I really paid attention to the process. Can't say this is an unbiased opinion since I came in with all this information, but it seemed fairly straightforward to me:

"I trained as a <specific class>"

followed by three options
"I trained as a <general specialty>"

and once you do select a specialty to change a level, you are given the option to cancel at the next screen. If this was my first time thru without any foreknowledge, I could see how things wouldn't appear out of the ordinary when you are first given those options for level 2, and you unintentionally strayed from your original path. The only suggestion I would make is when showing those three options it should state

"I would have liked to train as a <general specialty>"

that should imdicate clearly that this option is different than the path you originally took.

edit - however if they are using the same screen that veterans use to level 4 the wording my seem off color for the veterans purpose.

IronClan
04-13-2010, 06:37 PM
IMO this is just a stupid mechanic in the 1st place and just asking for po'ed customers.

Drag and drop interface, and allow 1 NET class/level change per + with a "finish" button that appears only when the sum total of changes is the same as the + on the heart of wood. with a confirmation dialog showing the results... This isn't rocket science and all this unhappy customer stuff could be totally avoided...

Any reasonable customer who hasn't taken the time to research carefully beyond the shoddy store descriptions might (and maybe should) expect that a +1 LR would allow him or her to effect 1 net change of class... Requiring someone to use two +1 LR's to effect one net change is both deceptive and backward design philosophy. If someone wants to change their 1 monk splash taken at 4th level to a 1 rogue splash taken at 1st level and the only actual change is ONE character class from 1 monk 19 whatever to; 1 rogue 19 whatever then they should be able to do this without needing to buy two +1 LR's to change the 1 monk into the main class, and use the second to change the first level to rogue. As long as they don't come out of it with 1 rogue 1 monk 18 whatever (ranger of course) then only ONE real change has been made...

Arbitrarily enforcing level up order decisions is pointless, needlessly frustrating and in the end doesn't do Turbine or their customers any good... unless Turbine really is trying to milk extra +1 LR store sales with a purposefully outdated and counter-intuitive mechanic.

I wont even get into the folly of trying to do something this expensive and important with a text based interface that has no confirmation or undo... what is this Zork?

Ponza69
04-26-2010, 02:00 PM
Well, I am surprised that no developers or Turbine representatives have chimed in on this. I do not think that a lot of folks that play DDO browse the forums as much as I do myself. I am just lucky that my place of work does not block this site so I can check it out on my lunch hour or catch an episode of DDO Cast or Cocktail Hour.

However, my brother is not so lucky. His work is pretty stringent on web policies and of course once we get home and take care of any tasks we need to do we hope on at the first opportunity to get in a slay some monsters, get favor, complete level ups, etc.

He decided to pull the trigger to swap a 3/15 Rogue / Ranger to a 2/16 Rogue /Ranger and guess what. Yes, he currently, after completing his +1 LR, is now a 4/14 Rogue/Ranger.

Kind of hard to remember what levels you took when - memory tends to go when you get up in years. The excitement of planning out a new build sometimes puts the dampers on reading explicit wording to decipher the meaning or having the knowledge of a computer programmer to know what assumptions to make when following the dialogue.

I am sure that many players have made this mistake already. I am sure that many players have also executed this process correctly. The fixes that have been suggested in this thread and other threads are not hard to implement - basically additional communication as to what one originally took when in their leveling up progression.

My brother is very bummed to say the least. The in game DM he conversed with seemed knowledgeable on the subject but could not off any help during while he was reincarnating. Pretty much said "contact customer support - I cannot help you."

So the static group we play in is off for a week due to not having one of our players. Doesn't want to play until he gets it right. Unfortunately, he is even debating throwing it all away which will throw a big gap in our 3-4 static group. Some of the suggestions would be easy to implement (i.e. undo/redo button before getting off ship) to take care of a fat-fingered miss-click.

Errors in communication - whether it be verbal, written, or read - whether be on the sender or receiver - really should be one of the priorities of maintaining the retention of the customer base. When expectations turn from I payed x to get y turns into i payed 2x or 3x to get y then there in lies the fracture in trust.

IronClan
04-27-2010, 10:26 AM
I agree this really does need a developer to chime in, maybe they've already done so in another thread on this subject... But they should at least acknowledge that there's quite a few people unhappy with the kinda backward counter-intuitive mechanic this has.

If they don't make it a drag and drop process with every + representing a single possible NET change of class regardless of which levels the classes were taken at, then they at least need to add an undo and clearly show everyone what level they took at every level.

Then they need to explain that while switching 1 monk 19 ranger, to 1 rogue 19 ranger is ONLY one real change of class, that you still need more than a +1 heart if you took the monk level at level 2 and you want to take the rogue level at level 1...

The distinction of enforcing changes on a per level basis is needless, arbitrary, counter intuitive, not well explained during the process, and guaranteed to make customers unhappy when they understandably can't recall when they took what class, especially when it shouldn't matter in the slightest...

The biggest reason to change this to be intuitive, is that the current mechanic looks like a money grab, to more casual players who are less likely to read every forum post they can find on the subject.

Chai
04-27-2010, 10:37 AM
At each level the top option is the class you took for that level. If you want to choose a different class, you would choose one of the lower options for category, then specific class.

IronClan
04-27-2010, 12:15 PM
At each level the top option is the class you took for that level. If you want to choose a different class, you would choose one of the lower options for category, then specific class.

Now that's a good tip to know, until they improve it.

maddmatt70
04-27-2010, 12:18 PM
It is pretty obvious what your class level is for each level because that is the option they give at the top. If you could not figure that out or read then that is your problem.

IronClan
04-27-2010, 12:55 PM
It is pretty obvious what your class level is for each level because that is the option they give at the top. If you could not figure that out or read then that is your problem.


Look around, if it was obvious there wouldn't be a half dozen threads about how people screwed up their characters with a LR. I haven't done it, I can however understand why and how people have. Not everyone is so intuitive to think the top text option means that was their class. In fact of the threads I've read on this subject this is the first one where anyone pointed this out... Good to know but far from obvious.

AyumiAmakusa
06-27-2010, 04:01 PM
This is one of my conspiracy theories again but Turbine may want you to keep messing up your lesser/greater reincarnations so that you'll keep buying more....

theboyftw
06-30-2011, 07:53 AM
my 13 wiz 3 monk which was SUPPOSED to be 14 wiz 2 monk is now 12 wiz 4 monk. The wording and execution of the lesser heart of wood is fail. I spent 20 bucks on this and followed the directions to the best of my ability. Turbine really needs to step up and address this with a confirmation screen and the ability to back out and get things the way you want to prevent this from happening.

stoerm
06-30-2011, 08:29 AM
I found the process to be intuitive both the times I've done a reincarnation, but I appreciate that lots of people have had problems. A restart button should be the least they could offer.

Vellrad
06-30-2011, 08:40 AM
Yet another necroed thread.

theboyftw
06-30-2011, 10:57 AM
Yet another necroed thread.

sigh. you just can't please anyone. start a new thread and someone gets haughty with you and points you to a thread that already exists and gripes that you're not searching the forums. post to an existing thread and you get the mandatory 'thread necro' snide comments.

which way would you have it?

I'm just trying to voice my concern about the fact that one of my characters is basically broken to the point that I will either have to spend more CASH to fix him or start him from scratch and spend more cash on replacing the +2 tome of supreme ability that is currently on him and deal with the hassle of re-acquiring all the bound gear.

it shouldn't be that complicated to add a "confirm" or "start over" option.

mournbladereigns
06-30-2011, 11:24 AM
Kind of hard to remember what levels you took when - memory tends to go when you get up in years. The excitement of planning out a new build sometimes puts the dampers on reading explicit wording to decipher the meaning or having the knowledge of a computer programmer to know what assumptions to make when following the dialogue.

I am sure that many players have made this mistake already. I am sure that many players have also executed this process correctly. The fixes that have been suggested in this thread and other threads are not hard to implement - basically additional communication as to what one originally took when in their leveling up progression.

.

A couple comments.

First, yes the LR/GR process could do with better explanations and with do-overs, at least on a level by level basis.
/signed on that.

Next some practical advice, Planning your build out using the DDO character planner, including the leveling order, can help alot. No need to remember build choices, since it is set in the planner. (Just consult the planner when leveling up, which again alleviates the need to remember what you wanted to do.) DDO character design is complex, but that is part of its depth and interest.

The DDO character design/leveling process is currently very unforgiving. The only thing easy to change is AP choices. A single feat choice can be changed easily. Skills and leveling order are set in stone.

Hence, using a planner for all 20 levels really helps. Think about it once, consult often (measure twice, cut once.)

donfilibuster
06-30-2011, 08:25 PM
Reminds me of the days a 'piece of chalk' was a very important part of an adventurer's gear.
A piece of paper with your planned build is just as useful, no point in taking risks.

ceiswyn
07-01-2011, 01:21 AM
Look around, if it was obvious there wouldn't be a half dozen threads about how people screwed up their characters with a LR.

Yes, yes there would. A career in technical authoring provides you with all sorts of examples of how people can screw up the obvious despite clear documentation, warnings, popups, big flashing lights, you name it...

...having said which, this is a kind of sucky interface. It is not obvious anywhere that 'change one level of a class' means 'change one level of a class at the level you originally took it', and I think people can be excused for not realising that changing a 19/1 to a different 19/1 might be two level changes.

It's also not at all clear that the 'I trained as a <specific class>' option is what you took last life, rather than what you took last level of this incarnation (as it is when you're creating a veteran character). And that's a really easy fix, you just say 'in my last life, I trained as a <class>'. Job done.

Trying to use the same text to mean two different things is a crazy plan. Any competent technical writer would have pointed that out; but given the number of issues that would have been fixed by competent technical writing I'm pretty sure Turbine doesn't have any.