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View Full Version : Why are poison and disease items 100%?



jhorn02
02-09-2010, 11:56 AM
This is minor, but something that's bothered me for a while...

Why can the same Disease Immunity item protect me from diseases at level 5 and level 20? Wouldn't higher level diseases (or poisons or fear generating effects) be more dangerous and effective at higher levels?

I'd suggest that poison, disease, and fear items function more like spell resistance, potency, etc. in that you need better items as you level up? It would add a bit more variety in trash loot, especially for new players. Turbine already has the coded ability for saves against these effects...doesn't seem that hard to implement. As it stands,

For example (the same could apply to fear and poison):
Lesser Disease Resistance (+2 to saves against disease)
Disease Resistance (+4 to saves against disease)
Improved Disease Resistance (+6 to saves against disease)
Greater Disease Resistance (+8 to saves against disease)
Superior Disease Resistance (+10 to saves against disease)

Of course, the ML would need to increase with the more effective items as well.

ArichValtrahn
02-09-2010, 12:00 PM
I see the rationale, but I dont want to encourage Turbine to spend their time coding something like this when there is a laundry list of more important things they could spend their time on instead.

Samadhi
02-09-2010, 12:03 PM
If these were implemented as you described them, the simple fact of the matter is no one would even wear them. Most melees have fort saves high enough that, if they are wearing disease immunity, it really is just to cover against rolling a 1. What good is a +10 when in that circumstance?

Gleep_Wurp
02-09-2010, 12:10 PM
neg rep you i would.how about the devs fixing stuff instead of jacking it up more.you dont want poison prot then dont wear the item.and if youre really cool dont ask for a restore or a cure.

Angelus_dead
02-09-2010, 12:35 PM
Why can the same Disease Immunity item protect me from diseases at level 5 and level 20? Wouldn't higher level diseases (or poisons or fear generating effects) be more dangerous and effective at higher levels?
The answer to the question is that the items were copied over from the D&D 3.5 game books without stopping to evaluate if the mechanics were actually good.

Note that the DDO devs are on record as being aware that this was a mistake and something they'd like to fix, but it seems unlikely they'll ever have free time to get around to it. (Poison and disease are low-priority effects anyhow)

Also note that Heavy Fortification items present the same kind of problem, but in a way with a much bigger impact on gameplay results.

Philam
02-09-2010, 12:40 PM
Why is a cow called a cow? It just is! Don't rock the boat that needs no rocking!

Ph

Sweyn
02-09-2010, 12:45 PM
neg rep you i would.how about the devs fixing stuff instead of jacking it up more.you dont want poison prot then dont wear the item.and if youre really cool dont ask for a restore or a cure.

Although I don't aggree with the ideas of the OP, why would you Neg-Rep someone for just sharing their ideas and opinions? Seems to me like you think your opinion is always right and is the only answer, and anyone who disagrees with you deservs punishment.

Isn't that what the forums are for? To discuss things ans share opinions... Maybe be less of a Jerk sometimes?

Lirial
02-09-2010, 02:37 PM
Although I don't aggree with the ideas of the OP, why would you Neg-Rep someone for just sharing their ideas and opinions? Seems to me like you think your opinion is always right and is the only answer, and anyone who disagrees with you deservs punishment.

Isn't that what the forums are for? To discuss things ans share opinions... Maybe be less of a Jerk sometimes?

Because most of the people in these forums with enoughrep to give neg rep love doing it to any post they disagree with,

Secondly if it isnt broken dont fix it , poison proofing and disease immunity works fine leave well enough alone

DSC
02-09-2010, 02:55 PM
The answer to the question is that the items were copied over from the D&D 3.5 game books without stopping to evaluate if the mechanics were actually good.

Note that the DDO devs are on record as being aware that this was a mistake and something they'd like to fix, but it seems unlikely they'll ever have free time to get around to it. (Poison and disease are low-priority effects anyhow)

Also note that Heavy Fortification items present the same kind of problem, but in a way with a much bigger impact on gameplay results.

QFT. The plethora of immunities in DDO cause all kinds of game balance problems (and especially content-design problems), but it seems unlikely they'll be addressed any time soon.

Thailand_Dan
02-09-2010, 07:22 PM
It seems the flavor of posts fall in one of two ways:

1. NO! "That's stupid" camp.
2. Good idea, but the devs will never do that, because it will take too much time OR they have more important things to fix.

Seems sad that even suggesting an idea has someone talking about negative repping someone. Good thing they make you have rep before allowing negative rep to be given.

OP: While I see where you are coming from, from a RP perspective, I hope they don't change it. Presently, there is just too much stuff mobs and the DMs can throw at you:

1) Disease
2) Poison
3) Curse
4) Blindness
5) Stat Damage, Enfeeblement,
6) Fear
7) Insta-kill effect (Deathblock)
8) Level Drain
9) Cripple, Hamstring, etc.
10) Feeblemind
11) Paralysis, Stoning, chaining, etc.
12) Drowning (Waterbreathing)

Most good players carry around things to prevent or deal with these sorts of things. If we had to go hunting for lesser/greater/superior forms of all these, it would end up being an unbelievable grind, not to mention my bank would overflow.

On the other side of the coin, I find it hard to believe a troglodyte in a level 2 quest (Garrisons Missing Pack) has red name immunities, and cannot be insta-killed with Finger of Death. But, I understand that the mechanics work that way to prevent boss fights from lasting 1 second, and I shouldn't be running a lvl 19 sorc through Garrisons.

However, a bigger issue here is saves. Certain builds lend themselves to having high saves, while others do not. Builds with high saves already will be fine, while a CHA based Sorc, or STR-based Barb will be failing no matter what bonus item they have on. Arguments could be made if all classes/races are currently balanced, but a change such as this would definitely shift the balance of power to saves-based builds.

cardmj1
02-09-2010, 07:32 PM
This is minor, but something that's bothered me for a while...

Why can the same Disease Immunity item protect me from diseases at level 5 and level 20? Wouldn't higher level diseases (or poisons or fear generating effects) be more dangerous and effective at higher levels?

It's true that disease immunity protects you from level 5 through 20, but not everything. If the disease is a combination spell like mummy's rot, the immunity is only half the cure. You will see this new disease around level 9-10, usually in the desert. Don't worry, the devs see things like poison protect and disease immunity and will throw a curve ball at you when you least expect it.

jhorn02
02-09-2010, 09:21 PM
If these were implemented as you described them, the simple fact of the matter is no one would even wear them. Most melees have fort saves high enough that, if they are wearing disease immunity, it really is just to cover against rolling a 1. What good is a +10 when in that circumstance?

Yeah, I thought about that. But the simple fact is that disease and poison might as well not be in the game right now. I'm wondering if a few changes could be made to re-integrate them in more interesting ways. Having played since beta, I'd like to see new easy-to-implement elements, even if they add additional challenges. Right now, both are a joke.

Also, to address the melee fort saves, poison and disease should be harder to save against at higher levels.

Right now, we have to deal with physical damage, elemental damage, and a few other effects. But to me, what sets DDO apart from other MMOs is the range of capabilities to dish out and protect against. That's what makes the game engaging and fun. Add more like disease and poison and we get more variety in offensive and defensive tactics.

jhorn02
02-09-2010, 09:22 PM
neg rep you i would.how about the devs fixing stuff instead of jacking it up more.you dont want poison prot then dont wear the item.and if youre really cool dont ask for a restore or a cure.

Well now, that's both mean and poorly articulated. I forgive you.

Shade
02-09-2010, 09:37 PM
Although I don't aggree with the ideas of the OP, why would you Neg-Rep someone for just sharing their ideas and opinions? Seems to me like you think your opinion is always right and is the only answer, and anyone who disagrees with you deservs punishment.

Isn't that what the forums are for? To discuss things ans share opinions... Maybe be less of a Jerk sometimes?

It's the internet.

Any type of popularity system like this one has WILL be abused, there's no preventing it.

Your ideals of how it should work are great, but no matter how many times you reply to people to explain them, you won't change their views on that.

Easiest way to show your distaste for how people use it, is to just disable the stupid system and opt out from ever participating.

Aesop
02-09-2010, 09:42 PM
Well now, that's both mean and poorly articulated. I forgive you.

While I'm not on board with the idea as presented... this response made me chuckle

Aesop

YakoSpiritFist
02-09-2010, 10:02 PM
These items are fine no need to waste time. Not only that but who would wear a 25% protect against disease item when there are better items out there? I just don't see it working out.

Symar-FangofLloth
02-09-2010, 10:21 PM
These items are fine no need to waste time. Not only that but who would wear a 25% protect against disease item when there are better items out there? I just don't see it working out.

When you're level 5, and can't wear the 75% or 100% until level 10 or higher.
:/

I understand the point of the OP, and it would probably have been well to initially implement that way, but I'd guess it's too late now.

Nott
02-10-2010, 06:31 AM
neg rep you i would.how about the devs fixing stuff instead of jacking it up more.you dont want poison prot then dont wear the item.and if youre really cool dont ask for a restore or a cure.The fact that there are more important things the devs can do with their time does not make his idea bad, it just makes it lower priority.

The fact that you would be so willing to quickly neg-rep someone for sharing an idea that you either don't agree with or you think is too low priority (or both) explains the neg rep you've received yourself.

Even if common opinion were that the OP's idea is bad, this in itself is not deserving of negative rep. Being a donkey, however, is.

Anderei
02-10-2010, 06:44 AM
neg rep you i would.how about the devs fixing stuff instead of jacking it up more.you dont want poison prot then dont wear the item.and if youre really cool dont ask for a restore or a cure.

Never judge a suggestion down, because you consider your pet peeve more important. A suggestion is either good or bad. Rate it as such. Turbine does not need you to "manage" their coders. And to neg rep somebody, because of a valid suggestion, just not one of the most important is so kneejerk, I can hardly grasp that.

KillEveryone
02-10-2010, 09:12 AM
These things don't seem to bother too many people anyway. I see people with those symbols over their character all the time, they don't seem to care and just wait for it to wear off.

If these effects actually did something instead of what they currently do then I could see having something like this being changed in the game as the effect would have a real consequense. I don't see any disease/poison/etc effects being increased.

Even still...why bother with items that don't cover 100%?

Poisoned - suck a pot. Poison pots covers you for 6 min.
Cursed - suck a pot.
Diseased - suck a pot.
Blind - suck a pot.

A lot of stuff can be covered with pots. Some things can't and those things actually do something...flesh to stone used to at least.

If you can cast the appropriate cure - suck a pot or whip a wand so you can save your manna for something better.

I think the devs time could be better spent.

Angelus_dead
02-10-2010, 09:27 AM
Even still...why bother with items that don't cover 100%?
1. Because you don't want to stop what you're doing to use potions.
2. Because the potions would also be nerfed not to grant 100% immunity.
3. Because maybe you're raged and can't use the potion.
4. Because the effect might kill you before you can drink a potion.

and most importantly

5. Because if the item was designed properly, using it in combination with other defenses would give you 100% immunity. The point is that the item by itself doesn't provide 100% protection, but not that you can't get full immunity by using it.

For example, the typical suggestion to nerf Poison Immunity items is that they would give you +10 on saving throws against poison, and you'd no longer fail on natural 1s. That would mean that people with a fairly good Fort save would still be 100% immune except to poisons with a super-high DC (like from epic mobs)

Fomori
02-10-2010, 10:58 AM
In 3rd Edition DnD they really dumbed down poison and diseases. No longer are the "Save vs. Poison or DIE!" rolls of earlier editions, sometimes with negative mods for more virulent poisons. Now you make a FORT save or take stat damage after a period of time. Diseases are a little more hindering in their types but are usually only fatal in games where the DM plays less "Monty Haul" than the rules call for.

Since DDO is Monty Hauling to the nth degree is would make sense that poison and disease are only minor annoyances in the grand scheme of quests. Now that you dont die when your con=0, even those types of poisons lost what little ooomph they had.

The disease and poison immunity items are mainly used for lower levels anyways. Most power gamers dont have the slots to run an item that specifically negates an effect. Having an item with that on it, in addition to whatever its primary purpose, is really an unintended bonus.

Having a partial negation would not add anything to game as it is. Players that dont care would just carry around neutralize pots like they do now, to remove it after the fact.

Diarden
02-10-2010, 11:02 AM
Goodness, what a great idea! While we're at it, Turbine can spend time with Warforged. Every level they get gives them +1 dc to poison and disease saves. Wow, why didn't they think of this in the beginning.

Oh, now that I think about it, Druids and Half-Orcs could have the same rationale. Lets give them disease and poison saves that skill up with every level as well. Then, we can implement all of this at the same time!

bobbryan2
02-10-2010, 11:03 AM
Part 4 and 5 of the Shroud would suddenly be a grave yard. +10 to saves against -1000 con is gonna make for a lot more warforged...

hmm..

Great idea! Let's do it!

Angelus_dead
02-10-2010, 12:11 PM
Part 4 and 5 of the Shroud would suddenly be a grave yard. +10 to saves against -1000 con is gonna make for a lot more warforged...
That's actually not much of an obstacle, since it's only the delayed poison effect that is that powerful.

Plus if you have a good base hp, 1000 con damage is actually survivable, even when a Pit Fiend is meleeing on you.

bobbryan2
02-10-2010, 12:19 PM
That's actually not much of an obstacle, since it's only the delayed poison effect that is that powerful.

Plus if you have a good base hp, 1000 con damage is actually survivable, even when a Pit Fiend is meleeing on you.

Heh... I forgot about the con change. Course, you wouldn't be effective until you actually got a heal...

Rydlic
02-10-2010, 12:34 PM
I'll chime in here.

I agree with the thought not the presentation. This has been said many time but to no show of what you would do. My idea:

Immunity items should have charges based on caster level.

Poison pot: caster lvl 7, gives you 7 charges immuntiy, meaning you will shrug off 7 poisons that are thrown agaist you.

Items will be based on total enhancment of item
So a min lvl 5 proof agaist poison belt will have 4 charges as it is a +4 item.

So on and so forth for other items... thoughts?