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View Full Version : Replace Drow SR (and show Elves some love!)



Hellmoob
02-05-2010, 11:30 PM
You may remove the images of hot, steamy Elf-love from your mind now. Really, stop it.

Past the first few levels of having the innate Drow SR, it fades into obsolescence rapidly. Ignoring their status as being 32pt without the extra investment, Drow are currently only the "best choice" for DC-focussed spellcasters who don't care about being squishy. Even then, there is an argument to be made for human (comes up 1 int short and has an extra feat, skill points, etc...) as well as Warforged.

Let's take a look at what the various races get to their advantage:

Halflings make great melee DPS (the best vs. low fort/high AC) and have fantastic saves. Warforged can be considered the best casters (self healing is VERY powerful) and even if one does not concede that, they have all kinds of nice immunities. Humans get one feat, two attrib points, healing amp, skillpoints, and the now-stackable versatility, making them a good choice for pretty much anything but a fighter-heavy build. Dwarves get the saves, the extra CON, the fighter bonuses, the dwarven axe.

Elves are pretty overlooked. They make the best FvS melee and their rapiers + rapier enhancements are nice as an alternative to the default khopesh + human for feat-starved TWF builds (especially in epic, where those two points of to-hit can be 10% of your damage). The advantage that they hold over Drow is freedom with those 4 extra stat points. There aren't many scenarios where I'd choose Elf and put points into both Int and Cha. Rogue I go int, dump cha. Pally/Bard I go cha, dump int. Ranger I dump both! Elves also get the 'Arcane Archer' PrE... Yes, I know, have a good laugh at ranged combat, but Turbine are actually making an effort with it now, in their floundering Turbine way.

Which leaves Drow. Their Faith-line Scorpion-thing and FvS capstone both suck fairly hard, in all honesty. I understand it, but without scaling for the pet it's pretty weak. Unyielding Sovreignty is always, always useful. As for the FvS capstone, bleh, I do not need to cast invis SP-free when I can carry a couple clickies for the very limited number of situations where I use it. Admittedly some of the other capstone spells are pretty questionable as well, but those other races generally have something else sweet going for them. DR15 for warforged, pinnacle melee for Elves.

When it comes to other classes, Drow is just so rarely the best choice when everything is factored in. So very rarely indeed. Anyway, enough whine and comparison. Solutions:

- Give Drow their proper innate SR, 11+Character Level, for free starting at first level.
- Replace the current SR line of enhancements with a way to improve the innate SR by say, 1/2/4 points. This would mean that the Divine buff Spell Resistance would be inferior to a Drow's standing SR. That in turn would mean, my God, it would actually be a useful trait!

I don't feel that's by any stretch an outlandish or unbalancing demand. In case you didn't notice, damaging spells don't even make an SR check in DDO, so you're probably still worse off than a Halfling or Dwarf in most situations.

Elves, well, Elves are trickier. You have to keep everything in line with PnP and how the Devs have expanded on PnP traits such as Halfling Luck and Dwarven Spell Defense to create their enhancement lines. Short of making AA good enough to avoid the universal loathing it now garners (yeah, don't hold your breath) there isn't much you can do for all the Elves. They should, however, have a drastically shortened search timer, since in PnP an Elf is entitled to a Search check for hidden stuff as if they were actively searching, when within 5 feet of said hidden stuff. I'd also advise rethinking their Capstone spell to something that would at least put them firmly at the head of the FvS-melee pile, something like free Divine Power casts.

Thanks for reading, and please feel free to throw in your own suggestions and flames as you like.

-Hellmoob-

Steampunkie
02-06-2010, 01:16 AM
How about giving Elves free Ranged Alacrity? Maybe not anything super-fast, but... Y'know. Something to make them the best archers on the block?

-Rachel-

Oran_Lathor
02-06-2010, 01:22 AM
/signed.

Long overdue, I think.

Mithran
02-06-2010, 01:37 AM
As someone who plays elves/drow almost exclusively, I agree with the sentiment expressed by the OP. Drow GTWF/Evasion/Paladins are hard to beat in their flexibility for UMD/Intimidate, imo, but I agree that the extra Intelligence is mostly wasted.

Elves/drow have the sexiest butts, but they're deserving of some kind of buff from the developers. The lost Constitution is a very high price to pay.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2010, 01:43 AM
How about giving Elves free Ranged Alacrity? Maybe not anything super-fast, but... Y'know. Something to make them the best archers on the block?
Elves already get enhancements which make them the most powerful archers.

noinfo
02-06-2010, 02:39 AM
Drow and elves suffer from lack of dev love.

However as they are one of my favorite races its is always hard to ballance suggestions with game.

Improvements:

Lets look at the strengths and common traits of the race (I am by no means familiar with the drow or ebberon in
general in the rpg setting having played like many 20+ years in other settings)
SR, while when they were introduced it was way overpowered to have their full SR, this has changed, the suggestion
for the enhancements to take this even further is a reasonable one as it does not protect vs damage spells and
would provide only a small advatage at best over some classes.

2 Weapon fighting, Drow since their introduction in DnD have been known for their 2 Weapon fighting ability. My
first thought was to make the tempest prc available as a racial but nightmares of 20th level fighter capstoned
tempested kept me up at night :-)

My suggestion for this is to provide and alternate line for the rapier/shortsword similar to longsword/rapier and
Scimitar for elves as follows:

While weilding 2 weapons instead of a specific weapon drow can unlock the +2/+2 hit damage bonus. This would allow
drow to gain a bonus with any weapon while dual weilding.
As another enhancement line in ballance with the dwarf armour mastery, Drow may unlock a 2 weapon bonus to defense
(thinking +2 at the moment but may be higher) that is a shield bonus, this will then obviously not stack with
tempest defense or sheild wands, but would be very useful in non-ranger two weapon fighting builds.


Spell casting (not sure in Ebberon setting)

Female Drow are known for their powerful clerics, allowing the dwarven cleric sp range for them would not be OP.

Male Drow are known for their powerful wizards, allowing them wizard sp range for them would not be op (or consider
same for a sorc) HOWEVER to ballance the elves which are 2pts behind in int for the drow and make them more of the
favoured casters they should be given an enhancement line for subraces eg Grey Elves that instead of the +2 to dex
from enhancements could be +2 to int (I understand that normal Grey elves also get penalties to str and the racial
+2 to int but I believe this is a nice ballance and easier to implement. But more on elves in a latter post)

Spell-Like Abilities:

Drow can use the following spell-like abilities (1 per rest maybe with optional addtional uses):

dancing lights (Not really applicable in game)
darkness would see this as a variation of Glitterdust
faerie fire (negate blur/Displacement/Invis on 1 target)
levitate (in some cases) (blade barrier casting anmimation for 3 seconds head in the cloud buff)

A variation of the spell like abilites is to add a feat called Drow Noble which works along the lines of Dragon
mark feats opening up the use of the above powers

Finally weapon proficiencies
If there is every a more wasted feat than shuriken I am not sure what it is, this maybe a default feat for ebberon
drow but since day one of PnP drow have been known for hand crossbows, now since these are not in game it would be
nice perhaps to give proficiency in light repeater

Just thoughts/Suggestions

Hellmoob
02-06-2010, 07:15 AM
I like the idea of the Drow bonuses to TWF, kinda like how WF get them for THF.

noinfo
02-06-2010, 09:06 AM
I like the idea of the Drow bonuses to TWF, kinda like how WF get them for THF.

Would help give drow a much needed boost.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2010, 10:37 AM
Here's an old suggestion to improve Drow enhancements: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=203380

Changes
Drow Melee Attack and Ranged Attack enhancements are merged into Drow Weapon Attack, for no additional AP cost.
Drow Melee Damage and Ranged Damage enhancements are merged into Drow Weapon Damage, for no additional AP cost.

Drow SR 1, level 2, 1 AP
You have SR 14, or level + 5, whichever is better.
Drow SR 2, level 6, 2 AP
You have SR 16, or level + 7, whichever is better.
Drow SR 3, level 10, 3 AP
You have SR level + 9.
Drow SR 4, level 14, 4 AP
You have SR level + 11.

White Scorpion Strike, level 4, req Drow Monk, 1 AP
Your unarmed attacks are ghost touch.
White Scorpion Strike 2, level 9, req White Scorpion Strike, 2 AP
Your unarmed attacks are lesser undeadbane.

In addition, note that it has been announced that someday Drow will be getting a race-restricted specialty enhancement to boost melee and stealth abilities.

Hellmoob
02-06-2010, 03:49 PM
Here's an old suggestion to improve Drow enhancements: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=203380

In addition, note that it has been announced that someday Drow will be getting a race-restricted specialty enhancement to boost melee and stealth abilities.

10AP for SR marginally worse than a Cleric buff seems silly at best. Merging the melee/ranged isn't terrible but the fact is most people will only use one of them anyway (hopefully the melee one).

Good to know they will get a racial PrE, though. That's a bright spark of hope for 10 years from now when the PrEs are done.

Angelus_dead
02-06-2010, 04:24 PM
10AP for SR marginally worse than a Cleric buff seems silly at best.
For an accurate evaluation, you'd compare it to the level 13 Monk feature. Remember what happens to the Cleric buff in the face of Greater Dispel Magic?

Currently if a Drow spends 10 AP he gets SR 20, while my suggestion would give him SR 31. That's an enormous upgrade, but giving it to him for free would be silly.

vettkinn
02-06-2010, 04:36 PM
Elves/drow have the sexiest butts...

But I thought the dwarven ones were the best :(

Hellmoob
02-06-2010, 04:39 PM
For an accurate evaluation, you'd compare it to the level 13 Monk feature. Remember what happens to the Cleric buff in the face of Greater Dispel Magic?

Currently if a Drow spends 10 AP he gets SR 20, while my suggestion would give him SR 31. That's an enormous upgrade, but giving it to him for free would be silly.

10AP for an incidental feature of the Monk class is still a big ask when you're also blowing 12 in racial weapon enhancements to try and keep up with a human khopesh user.

SR31 over SR20, yeah, it is a big upgrade numerically, but you have to consider the relative value: How often do you take a greater dispel, or how often can you be expected to make an SR check after resurrection but before you are rebuffed?

As a comparative example, a Halfling, for 6AP, can get +3 to reflex saves. Assuming that doesn't push him beyond the "fail on a 1" threshold for all content, that's a 15% better chance to mitigate 50 to 100% of the majority of direct and AoE damage spells in the game.

SR31 on the other hand, in the very few situations that you don't have Clerical SR buffed, gives a 15% chance to mitigate SR-check spells (when you get down to it, not that many that are in common usage) against a CR28 creature (Suulomades, as an example).

I didn't check the CR of the Beholders in Epic VoN3 the other day, but I'm betting it's high enough that even in that very specific situation (beholder debuffed) you're looking at a near negligible chance to ignore a low proportion of their abilities.

Shassa
02-06-2010, 04:50 PM
/signed

And I know I've seen you around Khyber, Hellmoob, hello!

Angelus_dead
02-06-2010, 04:57 PM
SR31 over SR20, yeah, it is a big upgrade numerically, but you have to consider the relative value: How often do you take a greater dispel, or how often can you be expected to make an SR check after resurrection but before you are rebuffed?
Yes, you do need to consider that, in addition to times when you just don't have a Cleric at all.


As a comparative example, a Halfling, for 6AP, can get +3 to reflex saves. Assuming that doesn't push him beyond the "fail on a 1" threshold for all content, that's a 15% better chance to mitigate 50 to 100% of the majority of direct and AoE damage spells in the game.
That is incorrect math. Many people get confused about when comparisons should be done with division instead of subtraction.


SR31 on the other hand, in the very few situations that you don't have Clerical SR buffed, gives a 15% chance to mitigate SR-check spells (when you get down to it, not that many that are in common usage) against a CR28 creature (Suulomades, as an example).
Are you trying to be funny?


I didn't check the CR of the Beholders in Epic VoN3 the other day, but I'm betting it's high enough that even in that very specific situation (beholder debuffed) you're looking at a near negligible chance to ignore a low proportion of their abilities.
Using Epic mode as a basis for balancing any player character options would be a huge mistake. It would produce results that are comically overpowered in all other content.

Symar-FangofLloth
02-06-2010, 05:18 PM
2 Weapon fighting, Drow since their introduction in DnD have been known for their 2 Weapon fighting ability.

Only cause of that bastard Drizzt.


Spell casting (not sure in Ebberon setting)

There is no difference between male and female drow in Eberron.


Spell-Like Abilities:

Drow can use the following spell-like abilities (1 per rest maybe with optional addtional uses):

dancing lights (Not really applicable in game)
darkness would see this as a variation of Glitterdust
faerie fire (negate blur/Displacement/Invis on 1 target)

Could be nice to see.



If there is every a more wasted feat than shuriken I am not sure what it is, this maybe a default feat for ebberon

I've been told that the shuriken proficiency is instead of the boomerang proficiency that they (and some halflings) should have in the Eberron setting. The boomerangs aren't much better stat-wise anyway.

Hellmoob
02-06-2010, 05:24 PM
Yes, you do need to consider that, in addition to times when you just don't have a Cleric at all.

Are these frequent for you? Or are you suggesting that it's usefulness when solo'ing is a justification for a 10AP investment?

That is incorrect math. Many people get confused about when comparisons should be done with division instead of subtraction.

Then, um, correct it? My reflex save increases by 3, from say 28 to 31, my chance to make a DC35 reflex save has improved by 15% (rolls of 4+ instead of rolls of 7+)

Are you trying to be funny?

If I were, I doubt you'd notice.

Using Epic mode as a basis for balancing any player character options would be a huge mistake. It would produce results that are comically overpowered in all other content.

Such as VoN Epic requiring a Search skill of 80+ to find traps, and thereby a pure trapbuilt character? The introduction of Epic content and Epic items inevitably leads to 'old' content becoming a joke in terms of difficulty for characters that have acquired those items. The time eventually comes to see Shroud/VoD/Hound as stepping stones to their epic counterparts.

But, just for laughs, when is an SR of -any- value "comically overpowered"?

There was no need to be snarky and confrontational, so I can only assume you're incapable of civil discussion and treat you as such.

MrCow
02-06-2010, 05:30 PM
But, just for laughs, when is an SR of -any- value "comically overpowered"?

Korthos Island and The Harbor using a Scarab of Protection (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Item:Scarab_of_Protection).

Hellmoob
02-06-2010, 05:39 PM
Korthos Island and The Harbor using a Scarab of Protection (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Item:Scarab_of_Protection).

Not that those are challeging to begin with, but the only thing that's coming straight to my mind that makes an SR check for Korthos and Harbor is the Hold Person spam from Kobold Shamans. In my experience (yeah, subjective, I know) the scorching ray / shocking grasp (or whichever lightning spell it is) cycling they go through, as well as Melf's Acid Arrow cause me far more grief than Hold.

MrCow
02-06-2010, 05:49 PM
Not that those are challeging to begin with, but the only thing that's coming straight to my mind that makes an SR check for Korthos and Harbor is the Hold Person spam from Kobold Shamans. In my experience (yeah, subjective, I know) the scorching ray / shocking grasp (or whichever lightning spell it is) cycling they go through, as well as Melf's Acid Arrow cause me far more grief than Hold.

Half of those of those are not Kobold Shaman spells (they lack Melf's Acid Arrow and Shocking Grasp).

Normal:

Cause Fear
Acid Splash
Magic Missile


Hard:

Scorching Ray
Hold Person
Obscuring Mist


Elite:

Lightning Bolt
Hold Person
Obscuring Mist
Bestow Curse


I personally find the scarabs to be a huge boon against Command (Hobgoblin Cleric), Ray of Enfeeblement (Hobgoblin Witch Doctor), and Otto's Resistable Dance (Hobgoblin Witch Doctor).

Hellmoob
02-06-2010, 06:06 PM
Half of those of those are not Kobold Shaman spells (they lack Melf's Acid Arrow and Shocking Grasp).

Apologies, I must have been thinking of Lightning Bolt (hence "whichever lightning spell it is")

And upon reflection, I think it was Troglodytes that cast Acid Arrow. I expect I'd know better if I'd spent more than 3 or 4 days play in Korthos/Harbor.

I can see the validity of a good chance to resist Otto's/Enfeeble, at least (I believe prot. from evil grants immunty to Command).

Orratti
02-06-2010, 06:12 PM
I'm pulling for an Elven imp crit range enhancement more than range alacrity. Bow crit range of 20 or 19-20 with imp crit ranging not including DWS and weapon specialization will make even faster ROF not very useful imo although having more attacks provides more chances to crit. Elves are supposed to be the over the top the best archers and as is can be matched in damage and nearly matched in to hit by all other races.

I agree also with the assessment of Drow SR. Being matchable with either item or spell automatically makes it useless as an enhancement. Each race is supposed to be designed with abilities that make them special and distinct from other races. This holds true in Halflings, Dwarves, Warforged somewhat in Humans and is very weak in Elves.

noinfo
02-07-2010, 12:15 AM
Only cause of that bastard Drizzt.




Actually it well predates Drizzt, p 34 of the original Fiend Folio states "Drow are also both intelligent and highly co-ordinated, being able to use eitehr or both ahnds/arms for attack and defence"

Note this predates any common 2 weapon fighting in DnD in general and well before Drizzt (not sure whether Fiend Folio came out before the Giants/Drow modules or after)

And the basis of my suggestion for 2 weapon enhancements

noinfo
02-07-2010, 12:18 AM
10AP for SR marginally worse than a Cleric buff seems silly at best.


I actually do not mind this as I believe that class abilities should be more powerful than racial, particulary at high levels, this does give added strength the the drow at low level.

noinfo
02-07-2010, 12:19 AM
But I thought the dwarven ones were the best :(

Quality not quantity :-p

noinfo
02-07-2010, 12:33 AM
Only cause of that bastard Drizzt.

There is no difference between male and female drow in Eberron.



I find that a real shame, the distinction between genders was one of the best features of drow.

Hellmoob
02-07-2010, 07:18 AM
I actually do not mind this as I believe that class abilities should be more powerful than racial, particulary at high levels, this does give added strength the the drow at low level.

More powerful I don't disagree with, but to negate their value in all but a few situations is excessive.

Most, if not all, of the other racial abilities (saves, versatility, flanking bonus, armor mastery, healing amp) are fully stackable with all the relevant buffs and items that also improve those things. Since SR doesn't stack, the Drow SR needs to be as good as or marginally better than the Cleric buff equivalent to be worth any investment at all.

Lorien_the_First_One
02-07-2010, 07:49 AM
Here's an old suggestion to improve Drow enhancements: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=203380
.

I like your idea for SR, although I think the cost is a bit much. If you made it 3 tiers, 1/2/3 AP, ending where yours does, I think it would be a nice little boost for Drow and still reasonably balanced.

Xeraphim
02-07-2010, 12:49 PM
Elves already get enhancements which make them the most powerful archers.

That aside, their DPS is still lower than most melee classes, and the purpose of which is negated by teleporting monsters nearly entirely(might as well go melee). I'd welcome a boost that brings DDO archers more in line with real combat archers(as D&D combat was based loosely on real physics).

Yes, a sword can be swung 2 times for every 1 arrow fired, but a master archer can fire arrows nearly the same speed as a swordsman can wield a heavy blade at his maximum rate. It makes no sense therefore that an Epic Archer that is born and bred for, and focuses entirely on, bow use literally fires shots like he's hardly ever handled a bow before. If you need more reinforcement for the point, think of a person with literally hundreds of years of experience and intimate knowledge with bows(as elves are notoriously long-lived), then apply that to the design and animations.

Addendum: Therefore I move to request that Rangers are finally forced to decide between Melee and Ranged, for the purposes of proficiencies and granted feats(no more granted TWF line for a Bow ranger, no more granted Rapid Shot, Precise Shot(and Improved) and Bow Strength and the like for Melee rangers), as per the D&D design, for balance reasons. The Bow line would have a comparable if not better(situational) DPS rating with ranged weaponry than a melee character, with dramatic penalties to melee compared to their melee counterparts, and likewise but opposite for the melee version, who would handle a bow as if not initially proficient.

Addendum to addendum: If a Prestige Class: Ranger(Bow/Crossbow) and Prestige Class: Ranger(Melee) would fit, then so be it. I'm only chucking ideas out here anyway. Of course, current rangers might get alienated a bit, but in the interest of game balance that may be necessary.

Xeraphim
02-07-2010, 12:54 PM
For an accurate evaluation, you'd compare it to the level 13 Monk feature. Remember what happens to the Cleric buff in the face of Greater Dispel Magic?

Currently if a Drow spends 10 AP he gets SR 20, while my suggestion would give him SR 31. That's an enormous upgrade, but giving it to him for free would be silly.

Here's the real humdinger: Would Drow and Monk SR Stack? If not, a Drow Monk would be redundant for the sake of SR, and shunned from certain groups because of his racial CON rating.

If they did stack(if even at a rate of MonkSR+[DrowRacialSR/2]), that would be a rather healthy reason to make a Drow Monk.

I support your recommended changes to Racial SR Enhancements for Drow.

gavagai
02-07-2010, 01:36 PM
More powerful I don't disagree with, but to negate their value in all but a few situations is excessive.

This is the major challenge in rebalancing any of the races. Some skills will always be inferior; the goal is to have enough moderately useful skills that the race as a whole is viable.

For instance, one reason why halfling and WF are DPS favorites is because their racial damage boosts (Guile & Power Attack enhancements) stack with the benefits of going Kopesh, while Dwarven and Elven racial benefits are "negated" in all but a few situations (high fort for Dwarf, crit-effects for elf/drow); they are rarely "better," and at best only negligibly worse than Kopesh. But because of other enhancements like Tactics and Armor Mastery, Dwarves are still a solid DPS choice; Elves are more for flavor and giggles.

SR is similar. Monk and Cleric will always provide superior SR; Cleric SR is castable on others, so you don't have to be a cleric to benefit from it. Drow SR will be non-dispellable, but since DDO is a Monty Haul-ish universe where immunities/saves are more achievable and reliable, an SR boost isn't going to "fix" Drow. But it wouldn't be unwelcome as long as Devs don't pretend it is the only thing they need to fix.

What I'd like to see as fixes:
Non-permanent effects. Racial Boosts for elves; and perhaps at-will spell enhancements for Drow. The changes to Human Versatility make me hopeful that stackable racial boosts will become viable for other races.

Fixing Elves
Elven casters are a joke, which really is counter-intuitive. Their racial benefits (casting in armor?) don't scale with the actual utility of armor in the game. Make elves better casters with 20 second stacking boosts to spell DC and/or spell power. You will see elven casters again, I swear it.

Elven melee doesn't need much of a boost: high strength, easy TWF, possible self-discplacement for two feats.

Fixing Drow
Melee boosts or boost-like "poisons." Drow could be the only race with a racial haste boost; or, conversely, a poisonous boost applying slow effects or "shaken" effects to enemies. This would make more people enthusiastic to play drow without overpowering them.

AP-bought at-will spells should be given to drow. They have no Dragonmark, and these powers could give Drow moderate flavor. Emphasize their sneakyness. Perhaps Level 4: Glitterdust, Level 8: ???, Level 12: Blur.

I think these would be better than SR; they create [b]strengths for the race rather than try to patch over their weaknesses.

Angelus_dead
02-07-2010, 01:45 PM
Here's the real humdinger: Would Drow and Monk SR Stack? If not, a Drow Monk would be redundant for the sake of SR, and shunned from certain groups because of his racial CON rating.
No, SR from multiple sources doesn't stack. However, a Drow monk would not be anymore "shunned" than he is already. Note that SR is less valuable for Monks (and Cleric+FVS) than other classes, because high Will and Fort saves mean they're fairly well-protected against those attacks anyway.

An SR boost is most helpful to classes with bad Will saves (Fig,Bab,Ran,Rog).

It could be reasonable to allow Drow characters to get a small (+1 to +3) bonus which stacks with their other SR. They also could be given a 20-second boost for a large stacking SR increase.

Missing_Minds
02-07-2010, 01:50 PM
In addition, note that it has been announced that someday Drow will be getting a race-restricted specialty enhancement to boost melee and stealth abilities.

Was that announced on Lama? I don't recall seeing a live post for it.

TreknaQudane
02-07-2010, 01:55 PM
Was that announced on Lama? I don't recall seeing a live post for it.

The PrE list was modified when Eladrin mentioned it.



Drow: Scorpion Wraith [Counts as Rogue]


http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166967

Angelus_dead
02-07-2010, 01:55 PM
Was that announced on Lama? I don't recall seeing a live post for it.
It's in a holiday enhancement list from around 14 months ago, although the drow skirmisher was inserted in a later edit.

Missing_Minds
02-07-2010, 01:58 PM
The PrE list was modified when Eladrin mentioned it.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166967


It's in a holiday enhancement list from around 14 months ago, although the drow skirmisher was inserted in a later edit.

Oh, ok. Thanks.

Angelus_dead
02-07-2010, 02:19 PM
There was no need to be snarky and confrontational, so I can only assume you're incapable of civil discussion and treat you as such.
That comment is in violation of the forum rules.

For me to pass judgment on your own ability regarding civil conversation would also be a violation. But here's a tip: If you can't handle being contradicted without getting offended, then don't go contradicting other people.

Symar-FangofLloth
02-07-2010, 02:39 PM
Well, Scorpion Wrath should help melee drow out, with 1d10 Con damage Poison, Sudden Strike (preferably implemented as bonus sneak attack damage), Wild Empathy on Scorpions only (lol), Hide and Move Silently bonuses (hmm...), a Blindsight/Listen/Spot clicky (maybe short-term True Seeing in addition to the +10 Listen/Spot?), and the ability to cast Darkness 3/day (wonder how they'd implement this).

Mostly 'cause of the Sudden Strike and the Poison (if that gets implemented better than Rogue Assassin).
Yeah, it's a Rogue-like ability set, but it'd be decent if you can squeeze it in. Here's hoping they're still working on it.



And can't Elven Wizards get a little bit more SP via enhancements then non-elven wizards?

Angelus_dead
02-07-2010, 02:45 PM
Then, um, correct it? My reflex save increases by 3, from say 28 to 31, my chance to make a DC35 reflex save has improved by 15% (rolls of 4+ instead of rolls of 7+)
1. It is bad to insert text inside a quotation box from another person. It is equivalent to saying "I will use the Quote button but I won't let you use it", or "My time is important but yours is not". It can also be construed as "I don't want anyone to quote me"

2. Here's an arithmetic demonstration. The core error is converting to a percentage too soon in the process, and then treating the percentage as if it were just a generic integer instead of a quotient. If I need a 7 to pass a save and then a +3 buff means I only need a 4, then my success rate has improved from (14/20) to (17/20). 17/14 = 1.214, or a 21% improvement.

For the extreme example, if I need a 20 to save and a buff lets me save with a 19, then the improvement was (2/1)-1 = 100% improved. If you're literally surviving an attack twice as much as you were earlier, then that is obviously much more than a 5% overall improvement.

A person might protest:
"But the decision to use multiplicative or additive difference is arbitrary. It is equally correct to divide the numbers as to subtract them"
That would be incorrect, because using additive differences produces results that are unhelpful for overall evaluation of what is going on. The additive interpretation is not what people mean when they say "percent more". If the boss is hitting Alice for 40 damage and Bob is taking 80 damage, then the useful ways to express it is either that Bob is taking 200% of Alice's damage, or that he's taking +100% more damage. To say that the answer is 5% because the boss needs to roll 1 number lower on the d20 is not a useful way to reply.

gavagai
02-07-2010, 02:49 PM
Well, Scorpion Wrath should help melee drow out....

Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing how they implement it. If the Drow Scorp comes out "soon," I'd hope it would integrate a lot of those ideas to make drow competitive. But I think relying on a PrE to balance drow is dangerous, since many AP-tight classes will never benefit.

Even without Juggernaut, every WF benefits from WF; without Jorasco Heir, every Halfling benefits from halfling, etc.


And can't Elven Wizards get a little bit more SP via enhancements then non-elven wizards?

Since humans can get a higher casting stat, more Con, an extra feat (for Mental Toughness or higher DC), there's nothing in DDO that suggests elves are arcane cannons, or even possess above-average arcane capabilities. If it were a matter of numbers alone, I'd roll a Dwarf Wiz before an Elven Wiz. Something's wrong with that, IMO.

Symar-FangofLloth
02-07-2010, 02:59 PM
But I think relying on a PrE to balance drow is dangerous, since many AP-tight classes will never benefit.

Even without Juggernaut, every WF benefits from WF; without Jorasco Heir, every Halfling benefits from halfling, etc.


This is true. Perhaps if the Vulkoor line for Drow Pally/FvS/Cleric were improved as well it would be enough, combined with Wrath, to make Drow viable for certain builds.
And the SR, yeah. That could use a bump, I agree. Even if you max it out it's not worth it.

Hellmoob
02-07-2010, 11:27 PM
1. It is bad to insert text inside a quotation box from another person. It is equivalent to saying "I will use the Quote button but I won't let you use it", or "My time is important but yours is not". It can also be construed as "I don't want anyone to quote me"

To say something is bad is subjective, and since we're speaking subjectively, my time is infinitely more important to me than yours.

2. Here's an arithmetic demonstration. The core error is converting to a percentage too soon in the process... <math> </math>

Ignoring entirely how far from the original discussion you have strayed simply to attempt to be 'technically correct' on one thing... You still have not rendered my statement that a +3 to saves represents a 15% increase to save chances invalid or incorrect. While it is true to state that going from "succeeding on a 20" to "succeeding on a 19 and a 20" represents a 100% increase in frequency of saves (as well as a 100% relative increase in the probability of saving):

a) This relative increase in frequency is itself misleading, since you are still failing 18/20 times, hence a 90% probability of failure overall. Note how I used the word 'chance'.
b) This exists at both ends of the spectrum. If the save DC is only 10 and my base saving throw is higher than 10, then no increase to saves represents a superior chance for me to succeed. The usefulness of saves, much like armor class and other opposed-check values, is highly situational... For the purposes of my comparison of Drow SR to Halfling Save bonuses, I would hope that you realised I was referring to situations where the extra saves would actually make a difference to one's chance to save.

In any case, you're just trolling me within the remit of the forum guidelines. Please stay on-topic.

I'm hoping that the Racial PrE for Drow will add something to bump up their sneak-attack melee (bonus hit/damage when flanking, chance on sneak attacks to deal 1d6 poison damage to an enemy's constitution) and perhaps a reduction to penalties for TWF or a racial haste boost (not on par with the class-based ones).

Of course, that's wishful thinking, it will be a bonus to hide and move silently checks, and the ability to cast camouflage 3 times/day...

EDIT: Apparently I don't proofread at 5.a.m.... Fixed.

Krag
02-16-2010, 01:17 PM
/signed
Drow deserve better treatment. No 32-pb, only one useful racial enhancement and -2Con is too much of a penalty for what they get.