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spitfirek
02-04-2010, 09:56 AM
After reading a lot about Pale Master because I think it would be an awesome build, I am a bit disappointed with all the bugs, nerfs, and lack of synergy with the wizard class that this PrE has. BUT, I still would like to make one just to see if I can make it work. I have two ideas for how to get Pale Master to be a viable option for a build, first is to make a negative energy nuker.

This build gets the Pale Master I enhancement and spell pen/+DC necro from wizard and then goes all the rest into cleric for the negative energy spells. I think the options are to get a couple reincarnations of wizard for the bonus spell pen and/or to get as much from feats as possible to make up the difference in caster levels that this build will have with only 14 cleric. BUT, if you can get passed that deficit it should work fairly well with a bonus 65% damage 12% crit chance and 2.25% crit damage on your negative energy spells(I haven't done the math to see if the 6 levels of cleric would be more or less damage than the Pale Master bonuses for pure damage). This build will also have up to 3rd level arcane spells to use for buffs. I used drow cuz I just like them and they kinda fit what I imagine a Pale Master would look like, I put in 2 reincarnations of wizard for +4 spell pen and the extra ability points.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.18
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(14 Cleric \ 6 Wizard)
Hit Points: 243
Spell Points: 1409
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 6
Will: 22

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 10 10
Dexterity 10 11
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 14 16
Wisdom 18 26
Charisma 10 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 11
Bluff 0 0
Concentration 6 25
Diplomacy 0 0
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 0 0
Heal 4 9
Hide 0 0
Intimidate 0 0
Jump 2 11
Listen 4 10
Move Silently 0 0
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 3
Search 2 5
Spot 4 10
Swim 0 0
Tumble n/a 1
Use Magic Device 2 11

Level 1 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Necromancy
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Inscribe Scroll
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Club
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Dagger
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Heavy Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Light Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Quarterstaff
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Throwing Dagger
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus


Level 2 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy


Level 6 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness


Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I





While working on the build above I started thinking about my old favorite build, the Arcane Psycho, and wondered if I could fit Pale Master into it w/o losing too much and what(if anything) it would add to the build. The Arcane Psycho build that I prefer is 18 wizard / 2 fighter, The character planner I use doesn't have Pale Master in it yet, so I had to use up random APs as placeholders for them which I will edit out manually.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.18
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Wizard)
Hit Points: 194
Spell Points: 1489
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 13
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 17
Dexterity 12 14
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 18 25
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 10 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 3 13
Bluff 0 0
Concentration 5 23
Diplomacy 0 0
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 0 0
Heal -1 -1
Hide 1 2
Intimidate 1 16
Jump 5 23
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 1 2
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 4 7
Search 4 9
Spot -1 1
Swim 5 13
Tumble 2 3
Use Magic Device 2 11

Level 1 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Swim (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Necromancy
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Inscribe Scroll
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Club
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Dagger
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Heavy Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Light Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Quarterstaff
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Throwing Dagger
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 6 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 7 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Enhancement: Summon Skeletal Knight
Enhancement: Summon Skeleton Archer
Enhancement: Summon Skeleton Mage


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III


Level 9 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 10 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity II


Level 11 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements III
Enhancement: Summon Blackbone Knight
Enhancement: Summon Blackbone Archer
Enhancement: Summon Blackbone Mage
Enhancement: Form of the Lich
Enhancement: Form of the Wraith


Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 15 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Improved Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 17 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 18 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 19 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master III
Enhancement: Summon Frostmarrow Knight
Enhancement: Summon Frostmarrow Archer
Enhancement: Summon Frostmarrow Mage


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Intimidate (+8)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II




I think the 2nd build looks cooler although I would like to hear all of your thoughts on both builds before I make go forward with my plan(I usually forget something when building that someone will point out and help me a TON). Thanks in advance.

tihocan
02-04-2010, 11:44 AM
On 2nd build: I'm guessing the feats are not taken in correct order? (I doubt you want spell pen that early).

Why drow? Seems like human would be a better choice (extra feat, con, useful +stat enhancement, and more racial toughness). With 32 pt builds you can start 16/8/14/18/8/8, which costs only -1 UMD (I have no idea why you invested 2 points into Dex in your build?)

spitfirek
02-04-2010, 11:57 AM
Human with 32pt build would be able to get a little better stat distribution with more CON. I went drow for 2 reasons, first is that I like the drow race and second is that I was just using my old arcane psycho build and I needed arcane fluidity in it(I think that I would still prefer having arcane fluidity in this build over an extra feat and 1-2 more CON).

As for the 2 points into dex, it was either +1 AC and reflex saves, +1 will saves, or +1 UMD for the last 2 points... I think its pretty obvious which is best, but that is just my opinion.

If I can get a twilight mithril chain shirt of awesomeness then I think human would be a better race since I can drop the arcane fluidity then... but I am poor and not lucky on loot drops :(

I could move the spell pen down and move toughness, mental toughness up... I was just in the same mindset as the first build when I threw this one together and I put spell pen in first for that one because of the low caster levels.

Carlll
02-04-2010, 01:48 PM
I think the 2nd build looks cooler although I would like to hear all of your thoughts on both builds before I make go forward with my plan(I usually forget something when building that someone will point out and help me a TON). Thanks in advance.
For the first build, i would calculate his potential damage per second, and how long he can keep it up. Then compare to say, a Barb, who hits twice per second, crits every 10. swing for 500 damage plus effects and a good chunk on non-crits. Then compare that to the cutesy "nukes". My guess is that this "nuker" will not look good, at all.

The second build seems to be focussing heavily on melee damage, so why bother with Necrotic Touch. It does as much damage as one hit of your Greataxe... Why break the attack chain for that and waste feats?
Be a WF and you have better self-healing on top of that.

Turbine isnt particularly good at balancing. This is also because the game is rather complex with the multi-classing etc. In simpler MMOs, if they introduce a new class or path, you can bet that it is somewhat balanced and has some uses. Pale Master however isnt and doesnt. In its current form it's useless, and constructing a build around it will weaken the build.
Especially deep multiclasses like the "nuker". The second build could at least "forget" that he has the useless PrE and act like a normal Wizard.

I suggest forgetting about the PrE; it's a bad joke, and a newbie trap.

tihocan
02-05-2010, 08:47 AM
As for the 2 points into dex, it was either +1 AC and reflex saves, +1 will saves, or +1 UMD for the last 2 points... I think its pretty obvious which is best, but that is just my opinion.

If I can get a twilight mithril chain shirt of awesomeness then I think human would be a better race since I can drop the arcane fluidity then... but I am poor and not lucky on loot drops :(
Ah, I understand, you're hoping to get a good AC.
What kind of AC do you think you can maintain at L20? It seems that most likely it will be way below what's needed to be even slightly useful, so that if you're concerned about long-term viability, it'd be best to not invest in it at all.

spitfirek
02-05-2010, 08:55 AM
Ah, I understand, you're hoping to get a good AC.
What kind of AC do you think you can maintain at L20? It seems that most likely it will be way below what's needed to be even slightly useful, so that if you're concerned about long-term viability, it'd be best to not invest in it at all.

I haven't done any math to see what my AC would look like at L20... but so far as of lvl 7 it is around 31 self buffed, with blur and/or displacement on I get hit once in a blue moon. But, I have no idea how it will scale as I lvl up.

tihocan
02-05-2010, 09:19 AM
I haven't done any math to see what my AC would look like at L20... but so far as of lvl 7 it is around 31 self buffed, with blur and/or displacement on I get hit once in a blue moon. But, I have no idea how it will scale as I lvl up.
Well, that could be a problem, since you're making decisions you can't change that will affect your build through his while lifetime. If you don't care about high level optimality, or if you don't mind paying for a lesser reincarnation, it's not such a huge deal, but otherwise, better plan it from the start.
Basically, you want to be able to get at least around 60 AC by yourself at L20 for your AC to be worth something on high level quests on normal difficulty.

LRex
02-07-2010, 08:55 AM
How come your CharPlanner has the PM enhancements and mine doesnt? Just downloaded the same version 3.18 and it doesnt show it for me.

EDIT: Apart from the negative energy/NT being or not weak, are the summons worth it?

spitfirek
02-07-2010, 12:29 PM
How come your CharPlanner has the PM enhancements and mine doesnt? Just downloaded the same version 3.18 and it doesnt show it for me.

EDIT: Apart from the negative energy/NT being or not weak, are the summons worth it?

I just picked random enhancements to use up the APs required for the Pale Master, summons, and forms then when I posted the builds I just edited the random ones out and put in the PM ones.

So far the summons are kinda weaksauce... You can have both a skeletal summon and a regular summon out at the same time though, which I guess is kinda nice. The Touch is only good for when I don't feel like switching to my muckbane for fighting oozes as it doesn't do a lot of damage compared to my melee(or spells). I haven't gotten up to 12 wizard yet to get the forms, I'm hoping that things will look better when I do; but I am afraid that they might not make that big of a difference.

I still put out a lot of damage from my arcane psycho part of the build so its not like my character is horrible, but I'm not really seeing any real advantages yet for getting the PrE.

ka0t1c1sm
02-08-2010, 12:35 AM
My 10th level Wizard already had the pre-req's for PrE so it was just a matter of resetting my enhancements when Update 3 went live. Have not played him much since then so jury is still out, but I have not seen any real advantages to it either. The first batch of skeletons available to summon don't fare very well in the 10th level quests. We'll see. If I don't like it, I just reset my enhancements again and that will just cost me some hard earned plat. No feat swaps at least.