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Oior
02-01-2010, 12:25 AM
So I finally got enough favor to unlock Drow (I'm a casual player so this is a big deal) and am looking for some advice. I've played a cleric/rogue and ranger/rogue and have had a lot of fun soloing and grouping with this combo but want to try Wizard and learn the arcane side of DDO. I am trying to decide between pure Wiz and Wiz/Rogue.

I'm thinking maybe a splash of rogue as I solo as much as I group and like the rogue abilities. I've read in other threads 18/2 is decent combo but would like to roll a character that I'm not going to regret and delete later on down the line b/c is not effective in end game which I am not familiar with, or is not wanted in groups b/c "gimped".

I could use some advice from others that have gone pure vs multiclass.

I'm using Ron's Character Planner to map this out and will post a build for input eventually but have a few questions about starting stats and feat selection.

BTW I don't have any twink gear.
I will probably max INT and use Insightful reflexes.
I want UMD for self healing and would like to use Diplomacy but not sure how much CHA to start
Thinking more CON than STR for HP.
How important is DEX in this combo. How important is second level of rogue & Evasion?

Thinking to start with:
Str10 Dex12 Con12 Int20 Wis8 Cha12

Any advice or suggestions for other first Drow is appreciated.
Thanks,
Oior

AylinIsAwesome
02-01-2010, 09:03 AM
I'd go 20 INT. You're playing a Drow, so you might as well take advantage of that. Then CON as much as you can (14), and I'd throw the rest into STR for carrying stuff.

A high DEX isn't needed if you're going to use Insightful Reflexes, and 10 CHA is more than enough if it's a class skill for you.


The second level of Rogue will help you even up all your skill points, and Evasion is extremely nice. Since you already lose out on the capstone and last bonus feat with a splash, I would say Evasion > 2 more spells.


Now...to be honest, don't play wizzies, so take my advice at that level as well.


It is possibly to max out DD, Search and UMD on a wizzy/rogue. Don't worry abut Open Lock, since you'll have the Knock spell. Just train it at first level, and that should be good enough 'till you get the spell.

Diplomacy is a bit tricky... If you take your first level as rogue, then wizzy 2-15, then rogue, then rest wizzy you can get Diplomacy to 21 trained ranks. I'm unsure of the required DCs to make it stick, but I assume you'll be ok if you were a Diplomacy item on you. Unfortunately, you won't really get this Diplo 'till level 16 this way, so...

If/when you get your tome for 1750 favor, get it for CON. Extra HP is good. :)


But no, you won't be gimp with a wizzy 18/rogue 2. You'll be able to nuke AND take care of their traps for extra XP. The downside is you traded away your +2 INT capstone for it. If the trapskills and Evasion are more important to you than the capstone, then do it. Otherwise, stay pure.

Syldra
02-01-2010, 09:34 AM
you're going to regret not being WF as an arcane, due to how powerful being able to reconstruct yourself is. no way around that, really.

assuming, however, that you don't have access to WF, human are the next best tinkers. the skill boost makes them the best (practical) trapmonkeys in the game.
if you really want to be drow i'd recommend playing to it's strength (highest int possible) and going pure wizard to maximize your DC's.
however, while not completely powergamery optimal, a drow tinker is still a solid build.

on knock/OL: even with only 1 trained rank of OL, OL will be able to hit higher DC's than knock. since you'll have at least 4 trained from the first level as rogue, knock is useless. you don't need to invest any more in OL, but if you do some supposedly "hard" locks become an absolute joke to open.

dump dex competely, you get your reflex from int (due to insighful reflexes) and you can't reasonably get enough AC to matter. send the points over to CON. more hp is always good.

imho, naturally.
Mitzuti, Orien.

Oior
02-01-2010, 11:47 AM
AIA and Syldra, Appreciate the help.

I have read about the advantages of WF wizzies but I went from p2p to f2p and all my TP go to unlocking adventure packs. Guess I also felt like now that I have Drow unlocked I should give it a try.

Why "Don't play wizzies" comment? I've read some of the Sorc vs Wizz discussion and feel that because I know so little about the arcane side of the game Wiz would be the best way to learn ie swapping out spells and inscribing from scrolls. I s this what you are hinting at or do youhave another reason not to play Wiz?

I hadn't thought about Knock vs Open Lock. As a ranger rogue I have been so used to leveling up Spot Search DD and OL that I assumed I would go that route with Wiz/Rog

Definitely going to max INT
Thanks for clearing up what to do with Dex

Gonna take a stab at this build and will post it for comment.
Cheers

binnsr
02-01-2010, 11:54 AM
If you aren't familiar with the arcane side of DDO, I'd say stay pure. You can always do a GR+1 or GR+3 later to retroactively add rogue levels once you have the hang of arcane casting.

I feel your pain visa vie going f2p .. I converted my secondary account to f2p and only thought after the fact about the fact that all 12 characters on the account were either warforged, monk, drow or a combination there-of .. so I had to spend a large chunk of my saved TP just to unlock 6 characters to play :) Then I had to buy TPs to be able to get access to areas for them - and still haven't made the last investment to unlock the rest of the areas (like VoN, Reavers Refuge, all of the Necros, etc.)

AylinIsAwesome
02-01-2010, 12:42 PM
Why "Don't play wizzies" comment? I've read some of the Sorc vs Wizz discussion and feel that because I know so little about the arcane side of the game Wiz would be the best way to learn ie swapping out spells and inscribing from scrolls. I s this what you are hinting at or do youhave another reason not to play Wiz?



GAH! Sorry about the confusion, it's supposed to read, "I don't play wizzies". My keyboard isn't that great, and sometimes letters don't go down all the way. Mostly I play melee, and I'm just now getting into Divine Casters. What I meant was that you should take my advise from the level of someone who doesn't play arcanes herself, but parties with them regularly and has seen what they can do.


Personally, I think that the balance between Wizzies and Sorcs in-game is extremely solid. Sorcs get more mana and faster casting, but you'll be more versatile and have much more synergy with a rogue splash than a sorc would.


Thanks Syldra, I also didn't know about the huge difference between Knock and Open Lock. I will have to remember that.


For the most part, people won't care about your MC as long as you can still buff party members, debuff some stuff as needed (like through Energy Drain) and kill stuff.

LAWPRE
02-01-2010, 05:48 PM
IMO - I do not like negative stats. So, without a good reason, I tend to avoid them. I do not see the extra +1 to Int as reason enough to skimp on Wis as this stat governs Will sv. So, I would have my stats distributed thusly:

Str 14 (6 pts spent)
Dex 14 (4 pts spent)
Con 12 (6 pts spent)
Int 18 (10 points spent)
Wis 10 (2 points spent)
Cha 10 (0 pts spent)


The basic idea here is to AVOID combat but have some fall back when you do. Dex is needed as - especially with Mage Armor and Shield - you will seldom get hit. You CAN wear armor (and negate the need for Dex in order to increase Con) but you will incur some sort of spell failure. Make sure that you take insightful relflexes at 1st level and Extend as your free Wizard Feat or extend spell as quick as possible after that (3rd?). Additionally, you will want Shield, Mage Armor and Magic Missile as you first level spell choices. Nic's Cold Ray does more damage but you have to get closer to use it. Also, you could do it this way and still max out Int:

Str 10 (2 pts spent)
Dex 10 (0 points spent)
Con 14 (10 pts spent)
Int 20 (16 points spent)
Wis 10 (2 pts spent)
Cha 8 (-2 pts spent)

However, with this build Mage Armor and Shield become a MUST (as you have to rely on these spells for your AC). Also, Bull's Str becomes the 2nd level spell of choice as you need it to increase your Str. At this point, Extend becomes your free wizard feat (taken ast 2nd level) and Insightful Reflexes become your 1st level feat. I would take Dodge at 3rd level in order to buff up your AC a little.

binnsr
02-01-2010, 06:18 PM
Normally I try to stay out of this kind of debate, but this is some of the worst advice I've seen in some time..

IMO - I do not like negative stats. So, without a good reason, I tend to avoid them. I do not see the extra +1 to Int as reason enough to skimp on Wis as this stat governs Will sv. So, I would have my stats distributed thusly:

Str 14 (6 pts spent)
Dex 14 (4 pts spent)
Con 12 (6 pts spent)
Int 18 (10 points spent)
Wis 10 (2 points spent)
Cha 10 (0 pts spent)


The basic idea here is to AVOID combat but have some fall back when you do. Dex is needed as - especially with Mage Armor and Shield - you will seldom get hit. You CAN wear armor (and negate the need for Dex in order to increase Con) but you will incur some sort of spell failure. Make sure that you take insightful relflexes at 1st level and Extend as your free Wizard Feat or extend spell as quick as possible after that (3rd?). Additionally, you will want Shield, Mage Armor and Magic Missile as you first level spell choices. Nic's Cold Ray does more damage but you have to get closer to use it.
Using this stat breakdown and assuming that you have infinite resources/time to acquire the 'good' AC gear, here's what you're looking at for AC:


Stndg Sbuff Raid Max
AC 48 52 65
Base 10 10 10
Armor Bracers 8 8 8
Shield Spell 4 4 4
Dex Bonus* 9 9 9
Barkskin Potion 3 5
Recitation 2
Protection Item 5 5 5
Paladin Aura 5
Haste ON 1 1
Chattering Ring 3 3 3
Icy Raiment 4 4 4
Alchemical 1 1 1
Insight Bonus 4 4 4
*(14 base + 3tome +2 Drow Dexterity +9 item = 28DEX / +9 modifier)



A 52 self-buffed AC will require 4 equipment slots - most of which are non-trivial to acquire, as well as +3 exceptional DEX (either on a weapon (impractical) or ToD ring) and 6 action points spent on elven dexterity. Realistically, a 52ac stops being useful about the time you start hitting GiantHold - and by the time you have access to that AC, you're well past GH.
Additionally, this is at a cost of 2 off your max INT (aka 1 DC, 1 Spell Pen, 50 or so spell points and 20 skill points over the life of the character) The primary reason for going drow over warforged would be for the max INT to be able to cap out your Spell Pen checks and spell DCs.
Once you leave Korthos and the Harbor that 14 STR is pretty much worthless - even with Bulls Strength, you'll find yourself whiffing more often than not at the 6+ level range. Assuming a +2 tome and +6 str item (at lvl13), you're only looking at a 22 STR.


Also, you could do it this way and still max out Int:

Str 10 (2 pts spent)
Dex 10 (0 points spent)
Con 14 (10 pts spent)
Int 20 (16 points spent)
Wis 10 (2 pts spent)
Cha 8 (-2 pts spent)

However, with this build Mage Armor and Shield become a MUST (as you have to rely on these spells for your AC). Also, Bull's Str becomes the 2nd level spell of choice as you need it to increase your Str. At this point, Extend becomes your free wizard feat (taken ast 2nd level) and Insightful Reflexes become your 1st level feat. I would take Dodge at 3rd level in order to buff up your AC a little.

This is a better stat breakdown, although it's impossible to have -2 points in Cha -- WIS and CHA would both be 10.
See above for advice regarding your advice .. The only good thing I see there is you recommending Insightful Reflexes.

AylinIsAwesome
02-01-2010, 07:08 PM
IMO - I do not like negative stats. So, without a good reason, I tend to avoid them. I do not see the extra +1 to Int as reason enough to skimp on Wis as this stat governs Will sv. So, I would have my stats distributed thusly:

Str 14 (6 pts spent)
Dex 14 (4 pts spent)
Con 12 (6 pts spent)
Int 18 (10 points spent)
Wis 10 (2 points spent)
Cha 10 (0 pts spent)



The reason you would have max INT would be to take advantage of being Drow (and thus being able to start with 20 INT) because it would increase your spell DCs (important), Spell Penetration (important), Reflex save (important), SP (only slightly but still, important) and being able to get all the relevant rogue skills maxxed (UMD, Search, Disable Device) while still having a good concentration.

As a Wizard, he'd already get a high progression on Will saves anyway, so the WIS is a waste.

The DEX is a waste since Insightful Reflexes will determine your Reflex Save, you won't have an AC that matters, ever, and nothing else it determined by DEX on this character.

14 STR is also a waste, since he can carry pretty much everything he needs with 8 or 10 STR.

Better to spend those points in INT and CON.

Oior
02-01-2010, 08:00 PM
Here is what I have so far. I don't really have a clue about feats & enhancement lines. I tried to keep rogue skills up, diplomacy and concentration. I only raised Int ability stats and enhancement line.
With quicken how important is concentration skill and enhancements?
Well its a rough draft so comments & suggestions?


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.18
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Chaotic Good Drow Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard)
Hit Points: 230
Spell Points: 1363
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 18
Will: 10

Starting Ending
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 10 10
Dexterity 10 10
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 20 25
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 10 10

Starting Ending
Base Skills Base Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 4
Bluff 1 1
Concentration 4 23
Diplomacy 4 15
Disable Device 9 32
Haggle 4 4
Heal -1 -1
Hide 4 4
Intimidate 0 0
Jump 2 2
Listen 3 3
Move Silently 4 4
Open Lock 4 7
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 5 9
Search 9 30
Spot 3 9
Swim 0 0
Tumble 1 1
Use Magic Device 4 23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Improved Spell Resistance I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Heightening I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation II


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Improved Spell Resistance II
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance II


Level 7 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity II


Level 8 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 10 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II


Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III


Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements III


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Improved Spell Resistance III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I


Level 16 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV


Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 19 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I


Level 20 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation IV

AylinIsAwesome
02-01-2010, 10:39 PM
Here is what I have so far. I don't really have a clue about feats & enhancement lines. I tried to keep rogue skills up, diplomacy and concentration. I only raised Int ability stats and enhancement line.
With quicken how important is concentration skill and enhancements?
Well its a rough draft so comments & suggestions?



Keeping concentration trained is pretty important, since that also affects wand and scroll usage (which Quicken won't effect).

You can drop Rogue Haste Boost since you won't be meleeing, and Elven Arcane Fluidity for the same reason. Drop Drow Improved Spell Resistance since it will never get high enough to matter.


Also instead of Spell Penetration, I'd take Spell Focuses. Mental Toughness maybe, since you have enough feats. Though only 1 Toughness feat. The rest really aren't needed.

I'd take a more in-depth look at it, but I'm honestly falling asleep.

EDIT:

The rogue splash gives you UMD. Because of that, there's really no reason not to be True Neutral.

Oior
02-02-2010, 03:21 PM
Keeping concentration trained is pretty important, since that also affects wand and scroll usage (which Quicken won't effect)...

...EDIT:

The rogue splash gives you UMD. Because of that, there's really no reason not to be True Neutral.

Thanks for looking,
I wasn't sure about concentration as a skill and enhancement.
Which spell focus enhancements are the most useful, I don't know what spells I'll be using so I guess that's hard to answer.

Not sure i follow the UMD and True Neutral suggestion. Never really understood alignment in DDO didn't think it really mattered.
Thanks

Edit:
Can any one tell me what levels I should get rogue skills diplomacy and concentration to be effective at higher levels?

AylinIsAwesome
02-02-2010, 03:29 PM
Thanks for looking,
I wasn't sure about concentration as a skill and enhancement.
Which spell focus enhancements are the most useful, I don't know what spells I'll be using so I guess that would be my answer.

Not sure i follow the UMD and True Neutral suggestion. Never really understood alignment in DDO didn't think it really mattered.
Thanks

If you are Good, then you can be damaged by Evil weapons, if you're Chaotic you can be damaged by Lawful weapons and if you're Lawful you can be damaged by Chaotic weapons. If you're True Neutral, then you will be unaffected by all of those.

The main reasons to have a non-TN alignment are to meet the requirements for a class (Paladin and Monk) or to use Pure Good/True Chaos/True Law weapons.

Since you'll have UMD as a skill, you'll be able to use Pure Good/True Chaos/True Law weapons anyway, since they just have a UMD difficulty of 20. So if you get your total score over 20, you can pretty much use any weapon in the game. Though you'll be a wizzy, so that's unimportant to you. :p

Also you won't take a negative level if you use Anarchic weapons to beat down Maruts, or Lawful weapons to beat down (insert Lawful mob here). You'll also be able to use and wear Taint of Evil items without taking a negative level (these are some very powerful items here, like Litany of the Dead).

Oior
02-07-2010, 04:10 PM
Thanks for your help. I posted a revised version of my build in the build section of the forums.
Cheers

LAWPRE
02-08-2010, 12:06 PM
One of the few things that I dislike about DDO is that it seems to encourage power gamers. At the very least, you have to specialize in order to be good. I just found out that you need an 80+ Search in Epic VoN. To me, this makes DDO more like PnP 1. I did not have to carry my chars around for DnD Versions 1 or 2. I could just "borrow" someones char are it would be almost exactly like mine. So, I like a little variety. As such, I tend to build more for utility. This is just me and may not close to what anyone else would do (hence IMO).

Also, I like to tweak as much as the next guy. So, I do like to figure out how to make something work. I realize that build 1 is heavily gear dependent. However, it can still take on MOST challenges. I will give you that the 1 build probably will not have much luck with Epic stuff until (okay maybe ever) they have the absolute latest and best gear. Still, the build is viable but not the "best" one out there.

Next, I will admit that I have deleted, respeced, etc toons because they did not work for me. Still, that does not mean that they will not work - or work better - for someone else. My 21 year old son does just about everything on a computer better than me. I would not feel so bad except that my 7 year old daughter is fastily getting there as well. I tend to avoid build with lots of clickies because I just can't hit the buttons fast enough. My son does not play games [;(] but my daughter is already fairly good with clickies.

The 2 build is based upon what others seem to be doing. Because of RL (Iraq and school), some of the advice may be off. This is the wonderful thing about the forums. Those who DO know, will correct you and those that clearly disagree with you will state so.


I am looking forward to more lively (but civil) discussion in the near future.