PDA

View Full Version : HD limited spells, please can we get them updated to be usable?



Chaosprism
01-29-2010, 06:36 AM
Sleep, Cause fear
Daze Monster, Scare
Deep Slumber
Circle of Death, Undeath to death

(and to a lesser extent, the power word spells, that are hitpoint limited)


All of these spells are limited to particular hit dice, they ALSO require saves.

Now hypnotism in Pnp is ALSO hd limited, so WHY in ddo was the limitation removed? but not for sleep? At the very least the HD should be doubled. And in deep slumber's case it should be removed completely. (or you could follow 4th edition and cause fatigue/slowness on targets that MAKE their save)

I think it's high time they were all modified to still have some use outside of the level range you first get them.


Cause Fear and Scare should cause "shaken/doom" on targets beyond the HD range at least.
Daze monster could cause a lesser duration stun on targets beyond it's HD limit.
(will Saves still need to be failed for the spells to work)



Any thoughts by anyone?

Kaervas
01-29-2010, 06:43 AM
Yes, they need updating.
Those spells you listed at the start are all not worth slotting (or hell, scribing) in their current forms.

If more spells were actually useful, then the wizards vaunted versatility would come into play.
Right now the selection of spells that are actually worth using is very small, and very little choice has to be made on a sorcerer to get most of the good spells (allowing their halved cast times and cooldowns to shine even brighter).

I support any change that brings things one step closer to a fully useful spellbook.

shadosatblackphoenix
01-29-2010, 06:51 AM
The one that always cracks me up is Symbol of Death. Spell that can be obtained at like, level 17, and is only "useful" on stuff 10 levels behind because of HP restriction.

And while you're at it, add the Bigby line of spells. That would be cool.

sephiroth1084
01-29-2010, 06:59 AM
Absolutely agree! It'd be really awesome if all the HD and HP limited spells could get their numbers increased by 50% to 100% so that they'd remain useful for at least a few levels. The HD limit on some spells gets eaten up within a level of obtaining the spell, and they tend to be useless in elite content entirely, and I'm ignoring spells that never have enough HD/HP to effect creatures of the level at which the spell is obtained.

While we're at it, any chance of altering the undead HD ala Pathfinder's rules change? Instead of giving undead tons of d12 HD to make up for not having a Con score, instead give them d8s, add their Cha to their HP, and give the ones you want to be tougher the Toughness feat (and maybe some of the enhancements). That way, maybe a cleric will be able to turn some undead after Delera's. Hell, I took my level 14 paladin into Delera's on elite and couldn't most of the stuff in there!

If we aren't going to get more useful spells added to our suites, how about at least making the ones we do have more than just a waste of space?

Eelpout
01-29-2010, 08:31 AM
I would love it if they reworked the spells to be more effective. I don't think every spell needs to be a world beater, but it would be nice to have more options outside of the big 5 to 10.

Sorry to add an off-topic whine, but while you are fixing spells, if you could amp up Turn Undead, I would really appreciate it. Again, I am not saying that every time I click the tasty skull face that all undead in a 5 mile radius are destroyed, but it would be a refreshing change if a level 12 Cleric with Sacred and Hallowed could at least Turn a CR7 once in a blue moon.

Horrorscope
01-29-2010, 08:35 AM
Without any doubts. Anything worthless has two options. 1. Make it worthwhile 2. Get rid of it. IMO no spell/item/skill should exist that has no tangible benefit. Other then someone throwing the "easy button" at us, there would be a huge applause for actually making more spells useful.

Rasczak
01-29-2010, 08:49 AM
Inflated mobs to keep up with an MMORPG situation yet abiding by DnD pnp rules......UPDATE!!!

Inflation effects everything across the board. Making the spell more hard hitting for mobs and players alike means certai nimmunities come into play again. Elves and WF to be exact. Right now they as useful as a bear on a bicycle.


And if you going to start playing with these spells then start adding in some more of the enchantment school, why does everything have to be charm, dominate and ottos?

aradelothion
01-29-2010, 09:05 AM
slightly related: how do you determine the HD of the mob? is it based on their CR?

Zzevel
01-29-2010, 09:22 AM
/signed

Ask how many of these spells were implemented before there were 20 levels or even before 16 char levels? Before that? Support for higher levels need to reach beyond more equipment, as the creature landscape changes so should the spells to affect them.

EKKM
01-29-2010, 09:27 AM
slightly related: how do you determine the HD of the mob? is it based on their CR?

HD is the numbers of "monster levels" plus class levels. CR is determined by factoring in HD and other special abilities. A Hill giant or ogre (few or no special abilities) will have a CR very similar to its HD while a beholder (ie lots of abilities) will have a CR much higher than its HD.

Some mobs will have more HD than their CR (undead in DDO are a prime example, esp the archers), consequently HD based spells and abilities have much less use against them. Inflated HD on undead in DDO is the prime reason why turn undead is so useless in DDO.

In short - you cant reliably determine HD in DDO withourt a lot of testing and work - or asking MrCow, I'm sure he knows the HD of every mob in the game.

Chaosprism
01-29-2010, 12:29 PM
Even if the mobs that were beyond the HD had a lesser effect on them it'd be useful.

If a creature fails it's appropriate save:

Sleep/Deep Slumber (beyond hd) = Fatigued/Exhausted
Cause Fear/Scare (beyond hd) = Shaken(doom)
Undeath to death (beyond hd) = Lose Half Health
Death circle (beyond hd) - Lose half health
Daze Monster (beyond hd) - very short stun

Rasczak
01-29-2010, 12:33 PM
slightly related: how do you determine the HD of the mob? is it based on their CR?

other way round and not proportionate. CR is based on monster hitdie (which also gives you an idea on their level) and monster abilities.

Horrorscope
01-29-2010, 12:39 PM
Even if the mobs that were beyond the HD had a lesser effect on them it'd be useful.

Sleep (beyond hd) = Fatigue
Fear (beyond hd) = Shaken
Undeath to death (beyond hd) = Lose Half Health
Death circle (beyond hd) - Lose half health
Daze Monster (beyond hd) - very short stun

Yep. What is exciting here is the game is already fun, but there are so many dare I say little things that they can do now each month that can really open up a ton more gaming possibilities and it would be like getting presents for Christmas every month, also if they oops they can correct the following month. I think spirits are higher in Devland now and these things could be coming, but we'll have to wait and see.

aradelothion
01-31-2010, 10:50 AM
other way round and not proportionate. CR is based on monster hitdie (which also gives you an idea on their level) and monster abilities.


HD is the numbers of "monster levels" plus class levels. CR is determined by factoring in HD and other special abilities. A Hill giant or ogre (few or no special abilities) will have a CR very similar to its HD while a beholder (ie lots of abilities) will have a CR much higher than its HD.

Some mobs will have more HD than their CR (undead in DDO are a prime example, esp the archers), consequently HD based spells and abilities have much less use against them. Inflated HD on undead in DDO is the prime reason why turn undead is so useless in DDO.

In short - you cant reliably determine HD in DDO withourt a lot of testing and work - or asking MrCow, I'm sure he knows the HD of every mob in the game.

Thanks for the info!

sephiroth1084
01-31-2010, 11:04 AM
HD are only loosely tied to CR. The mechanics for increasing the HD on a monster in the Monster Manual indicate a corresponding increase in CR based partly on creature type and how certain abilities of the creature improve, but the system really starts to fall apart after bumping HD by more than 2 or 3, as at that point the creature is likely not posing as great a challenge as the rules would imply.

Undead are notorious for being completely separated from HD, as at the high end, they can have close to twice as many HD as their CR. Dragons have the same issue (a CR 26 Greater Wyrm Red Dragon has 40 hit dice). If you were to take an ogre, and bump it's HD up to 40, it would not be anywhere near as challenging as the dragon.

In DDO, this seems to have gotten inflated even more due to the way our damage scales vs. that of PnP.

Chaosprism
01-31-2010, 11:44 AM
Exactly why the HD limitations (and hitpoint limitations for power word spells) need to be rethought. (increased at least or made scalable the higher the caster level is)

A level 1 sleep spell cast by a level 15 wizard should be able to affect maybe (level+3) hd of creatures (so 18 in this case)

So a level 18 creature would have to save vs will or fall asleep. (but only that 1 creature in the area of effect)



Deep slumber might be 2x HD of caster (so when cast by a level 5 wizard (min for this level 3 spell) you'd put 10 hd asleep (as normal)
But a level 15 wizard casting it would put 30 HD asleep (well that much hd of creatures would get a save vs WILL or fall asleep)