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Retort
01-29-2010, 01:30 AM
I'm reading almost everything and write almost never but current situation leave me no choice but to say my opinion about changes that are coming. For those who don’t like idea of making game simple I know what you feel but there is a way to have more fun just play elite I did it and got really huge amounts of favor :).
As it comes to casual difficult in my opinion they should turn off drop of named items and everything will be ok so that nice name loot cannot be farmed. Also I will love idea to improve drop rate of named loot on elite diff.

After 28 replys

Some of you really don’t get my point on this.

1. I’m also newbie I play like 3 months in this game so I got 2 main characters on 2 different servers 14lvl sorcer on Ghallanda and 8lvl Pal/War on Cannith and I really enjoy the way it is now. (f2p with GH/Tangleroot i got tp for vale now)
2. With my Sorc I can solo most of GH quests I got quite skill for that because I have played a lot of others mmo and fps games (not much now child and wife keep me in real world). But quests with the named loot now on normal are hard enough to run them with party not solo I’m worried because I know that I’m lazy and if I see that I can solo everything easy I will do that. Than game will become more grinding than fun (habit from past) and I lose interest in game.

After 92 Replys

Thank you for your opinion this thread Casual = no named loot was named like that because I want to point attention to casual problem and I get that 2000 views in 3 days means that this is important issue for us newbies as well for vets.

From beginning I was supporting lowering drop rate of named items and it seems that majority of us support that Idea the true is that everyone have to earn something with some effort to have both satisfaction and don’t get bored with the game.

When you writing about high lvl players that are farming to get named loot you don’t put attention to the fact that someone who have high lvl is hunting for low lvl loot that will help him only a bit and he cannot farm it for a long time because of ransack.

TO DEV:

It all to prevent for wearing uniforms and keep economy of the game stable.


Soon only F2P will play the game because they have more reasons (getting TP for new adventures, doing all the quests and doing them on elite to get favor, taking more time to lvl, trying to get 32 points build tomes etc.)

Catholicon
01-29-2010, 02:20 AM
So, screw the player over for no reason? I'm glad you're not a dev.

MRH
01-29-2010, 03:01 AM
So its fair if the players that have stuck with this game for say 3 yrs......... and have run N/H/E quests tons and tons of time and still havn't received named loot.... all of a sudden new players runnin casual quests pull named loot with really no effort at all during the quest? Thats fair? Just playing devils advocate.

I say if they are gonna give them the easy button for the quests.............then the drops should reflect that.

again im playing devils advocate.......I am 3 months into this game.......I never had any probs solo'n quests on normal. Not sure why new ppl are having probs.....

Dexol
01-29-2010, 03:07 AM
/not signed

If I want to farm a quest for an item, lets say a muckbane, I'm gonn a run Durks once on hard, once on leet, then solo, solo, solo, solo, solo.......I've done the quest well over 100 times, I just want to get to the chest.

Why make life harder for myself because they change the name to casual and allow an increased party size, doesnt stop me soloing it, and I dont mind if somone else wants to take a party through on casual, it doesnt affect me in any way. Let them play the game their way, an I'll play my way.:)

I for one welcome casual for those quests you need to repeat ad infinitum

Dendrix
01-29-2010, 04:05 AM
So its fair if the players that have stuck with this game for say 3 yrs......... and have run N/H/E quests tons and tons of time and still havn't received named loot.... all of a sudden new players runnin casual quests pull named loot with really no effort at all during the quest? Thats fair? Just playing devils advocate.

when casual is added to the game, both old and new players can run the quest on casual and have exactly the same chances to get the loot. That seems 100% fair to me.

MissErres
01-29-2010, 04:23 AM
I can see it now...

Casual setting... Making s****y player feel uber since Update 3.

uhgungawa
01-29-2010, 04:27 AM
So, screw the player over for no reason? I'm glad you're not a dev.

No real reason? The reason is to not patsy over to people just because they want an easy button. But it shouldn't be all named loot either. Any Harbor/Market place loot is fine, once out of that area yes, Named drops should stop on Casual. There is no reason if you want something you can't step your game up to normal.

cardmj1
01-29-2010, 04:32 AM
Ouch MissErres!

Casual setting should have the reduced drop rate just like it does for xp and favor. If you are going to farm it, then you are going to have to run twice as often at normal. I am not a fan of casual mode but it's here and there is nothing I can do about it now. I just hope my fears of the casual mode will not be met. So I am trusting the devs (oh man!) to keep the spirit of challenge in the game.

cdr
01-29-2010, 04:41 AM
If casual drops the level of the loot, which I recall that it does, named items might not drop anyway as it is.

As far as I know how it works is if a quest is level 4, you would get level 4 (at best) loot. If the named loot in that quest is level 4 and the level of the loot drops on Casual, that named loot would no longer drop.

This is why you have to run Ghola Fan/Shrieking Mines on at least Hard to get the good loot.

uhgungawa
01-29-2010, 04:44 AM
Ouch MissErres!

Casual setting should have the reduced drop rate just like it does for xp and favor. If you are going to farm it, then you are going to have to run twice as often at normal. I am not a fan of casual mode but it's here and there is nothing I can do about it now. I just hope my fears of the casual mode will not be met. So I am trusting the devs (oh man!) to keep the spirit of challenge in the game.

Too late, the poor easy button has been getting quite the workout. :rolleyes:

In truth Turbine needs to find a balance for both high end and peewee gamers. I just hope that they see that having the named loot starting at normal will still let the peewees try it out and get use to it, and the high enders won't just solo it to floos the AH with over price stuff (Yeah, too late on that one)

Therilith
01-29-2010, 05:19 AM
If I want to farm a quest for an item, lets say a muckbane, I'm gonn a run Durks once on hard, once on leet, then solo, solo, solo, solo, solo.......I've done the quest well over 100 times, I just want to get to the chest.

There is a difference between farming a single low level quest for an item that's really only wanted because there are few functional replacements and being able to solo farm every single non-raid quest in the entire game.

I have no problem with the newbs/casuals playing the game their way, but the reward should reflect the risk/challenge.

Kriogen
01-29-2010, 05:32 AM
/not signed

Gercho
01-29-2010, 05:38 AM
if takes half the effort to do it in casual, then half the drop rate sounds fair...

Catholicon
01-29-2010, 05:42 AM
No real reason? The reason is to not patsy over to people just because they want an easy button. But it shouldn't be all named loot either. Any Harbor/Market place loot is fine, once out of that area yes, Named drops should stop on Casual. There is no reason if you want something you can't step your game up to normal.

Sorry, but I only play DDO for fun. There is no reason for these things to NOT be available in every difficulty. If Muck spawns, a Muckbane should be able to spawn too.

Want it to be fair? Then don't have the Rare monsters spawn on Casual difficulty. Oh wait, that WOULDN'T be fair.

I might decide to team up with some friends and only ever play the quests on Casual difficulty, don't start saying we should miss out on stuff just because you only play on hard and elite.

MissErres
01-29-2010, 05:51 AM
Sorry, but I only play DDO for fun. There is no reason for these things to NOT be available in every difficulty. If Muck spawns, a Muckbane should be able to spawn too.

Want it to be fair? Then don't have the Rare monsters spawn on Casual difficulty. Oh wait, that WOULDN'T be fair.

Is it fair that the rest of us have to carry your sorry a$$ thru a quest because you decided to run everything on casual and are not capable of a real challenge? I play DDO for fun too. You know what's NOT fun? A character full of named items, with no skill, charging off into battle because he thinks he's uber and then wasting resources and/or causing a party wipe. If I wanted a mind-numbing, no-brainer I wouldn't be playing this game. I personally find the fun in the challenge... so do many others.

Gercho
01-29-2010, 05:59 AM
Is it fair that the rest of us have to carry your sorry a$$ thru a quest because you decided to run everything on casual and are not capable of a real challenge? I play DDO for fun too. You know what's NOT fun? A character full of named items, with no skill, charging off into battle because he thinks he's uber and then wasting resources and/or causing a party wipe. If I wanted a mind-numbing, no-brainer I wouldn't be playing this game. I personally find the fun in the challenge... so do many others.
Its even a bigger challenge if you have to deal with bad party members :D

ckorik
01-29-2010, 06:06 AM
With all the anger over this - My suggestion is they get rid of elite... because people seem to think that running quests on that mode makes them better than everyone else and is bad for the state of the game.

Perhaps some calmer reactions to something that 99% of the time won't really affect the 'elite/raider' game play experience might be in order.

MissErres
01-29-2010, 06:07 AM
Its even a bigger challenge if you have to deal with bad party members :D

Very true, atleast for the first 2 minutes. Then they're left for dead or in my backpack. ;)

MissErres
01-29-2010, 06:13 AM
Perhaps some calmer reactions to something that 99% of the time won't really affect the 'elite/raider' game play experience might be in order.

See... this right here is what I have a problem with. Eventually, your game experience, or lack there of, effects my game experience. It is inevitable that sooner or later someone that has breezed thru the game on easy mode is going to end up in a group with people that actually know what they are doing. Now I don't mind helping new players at all, as long as they actually want to learn and get better. It's the players that are screaming for the "easy button" that get to me. If you want to be good at this game with all the good stuff.... EARN IT! Rise to the challenge, don't expect the challenge to drop to you.

Nott
01-29-2010, 06:14 AM
In my view, "casual" is just another first time XP bonus... I'll run that mode once per quest if I'm still getting xp for the quest.

Someone implied that removing rare mobs from casual mode would not be fair? On the contrary, that would meet the spirit of the casual difficulty mode. Rares are harder than the rest of the dungeon; if you want a challenge you should not be entering on such an easy setting. If you want a chance for the better loot items a zone offers, you should be required to earn them. Zones were intended to be tuned for 4 person groups on normal or harder; if you want to use the "easier than normal" setting, you should lose the opportunity for the better drops.

Nott
01-29-2010, 06:15 AM
So, screw the player over for no reason? I'm glad you're not a dev."For no reason"? Do you really think "you're running on easy mode... the challenge is as set for a single player but you can take up to 5 others with you" is "no reason"?

Therilith
01-29-2010, 06:16 AM
Sorry, but I only play DDO for fun. There is no reason for these things to NOT be available in every difficulty.

Sorry, but I only play DDO for fun. There is no reason for these things to NOT be available in the Grotto.



I might decide to team up with some friends and only ever play the quests on Casual difficulty, don't start saying we should miss out on stuff just because you only play on hard and elite.

I might decide to team up with some friends and only ever play Bringing the Light, don't start saying we should miss out on stuff just because you play Stealer of Souls instead.


Are you opposed to the reduced XP/random loot on casual too? After all, you're entitled to every piece of equipment in the game, and those evil devs damn well better not take away all the loot you earned by breezing through an absolutely trivial dungeon all by yourself!

ckorik
01-29-2010, 06:21 AM
Eventually, your game experience, or lack there of, effects my game experience

I have to be honest here - being a (new) vip in spite of the attitude people have against newbies to this game - the reverse is also true.

It really sucks running a quest I've never run before with a vet... because I never even get to see what we are killing.

It really sucks running a quest with a vet... I have 3k pp on my lvl 8 toon - and somehow I get insulted because I'm not carrying a *stack* of several types of pots... just a few of which wipe me out.

Thus... get rid of twinking/shared accounts/pp transfers/etc and make the game better for me.

Er.... wait no nevermind - please make the game better for them (the vets) as well - I honestly don't want to ruin others joy at playing a *game* because sometimes it impacts my play experience..

From a newbie.... that runs elite... and likes the game... /shrug

MissErres
01-29-2010, 06:33 AM
I have to be honest here - being a (new) vip in spite of the attitude people have against newbies to this game - the reverse is also true.

It really sucks running a quest I've never run before with a vet... because I never even get to see what we are killing.

It really sucks running a quest with a vet... I have 3k pp on my lvl 8 toon - and somehow I get insulted because I'm not carrying a *stack* of several types of pots... just a few of which wipe me out.

Thus... get rid of twinking/shared accounts/pp transfers/etc and make the game better for me.

Er.... wait no nevermind - please make the game better for them (the vets) as well - I honestly don't want to ruin others joy at playing a *game* because sometimes it impacts my play experience..

From a newbie.... that runs elite... and likes the game... /shrug

I'm sorry that you've run into people that are not understanding of your financial situation. Most of us understand that new players cannot afford a lot.

As far as running with vets and not getting to see what you're killing. Either a) tell them it's your first time and ask them to slow down or b) form your own dungeon crawling group. There are enough people around stating that they want the same thing, so it shouldn't be too difficult.

I am glad to hear that you are enjoying the game on an elite setting. It really is more fun when it is challenging.

You must also understand then, that the rest of us started out exactly where you are now. No money, no experience, and definately no easy button. And we still managed to make it work and get thru it. ;)

katana_one
01-29-2010, 06:35 AM
Eventually, your game experience, or lack there of, effects my game experience. It is inevitable that sooner or later someone that has breezed thru the game on easy mode is going to end up in a group with people that actually know what they are doing.

Come on now, doesn't this happen already? I don't see that changing much just because those players can now play together in Casual mode. If anything, it might (just maybe mind you) help them get a clue about group dynamics before they end up in a Normal or Hard pug.

I know, wishful thinking, right?

What can I say? I can be an idealist at times. :)

MissErres
01-29-2010, 06:44 AM
Come on now, doesn't this happen already? I don't see that changing much just because those players can now play together in Casual mode. If anything, it might (just maybe mind you) help them get a clue about group dynamics before they end up in a Normal or Hard pug.

I know, wishful thinking, right?

What can I say? I can be an idealist at times. :)

You're right Kat, it's already happening. And I fear that the addition of an easier group mode is only going to make it worse. I really don't see pugging getting any better... ever.

Cyiwin
01-29-2010, 07:17 AM
This discussion reminds me of the 32 point build system being sold at the DDO store. People who had to work for the nice items don't like to see someone easily come along and get them too. We had to work for them. They are status symbols. If everyone had this stuff who would look up to us? Our friends and families? Hah! We spent 40-60 hours per week in game alienating them, now your telling me it was for nothing!

Of course I'm being sarcastic ;)

Unlike the good ol days, new players now outnumber the vets. The division of the player base is greater now than ever before. If this helps bridge that gap a little so be it. I don't see how it is going to hurt me.

keithzor
01-29-2010, 07:19 AM
I have to be honest here - being a (new) vip in spite of the attitude people have against newbies to this game - the reverse is also true.

It really sucks running a quest I've never run before with a vet... because I never even get to see what we are killing.

It really sucks running a quest with a vet... I have 3k pp on my lvl 8 toon - and somehow I get insulted because I'm not carrying a *stack* of several types of pots... just a few of which wipe me out.

Thus... get rid of twinking/shared accounts/pp transfers/etc and make the game better for me.

Er.... wait no nevermind - please make the game better for them (the vets) as well - I honestly don't want to ruin others joy at playing a *game* because sometimes it impacts my play experience..

From a newbie.... that runs elite... and likes the game... /shrug

You have to remember that being new means you need to work harder to learn the game and acquire resources. I'm in almost the exact situation as you are, i'm new to this game and my highest PC is 9. but instead of showing up to groups unprepared with no pots and "wishing" i had the money to get them. i spend a good portion of my time going out and getting them. Either grinding low lvl quests to sell loot or playing the AH. If you only focus on grinding levels and getting better items, and just expect that one day you'll have money, your going to be in the same situation at lvl 20: wishing. Its the same as any other game.

As for the casual setting, I don't understand why we would ever need one. I understand the solo option is for people that play the game a bit and don't' have the time to invest into the game, and thats fine. In fact i like that option if i cant find a group or if I am having trouble with a dungeon. Some times i'll go on solo just to "try" a dungeon, then i'll go norm. What i don't understand is that if you have the time to put a group together by sitting around and finding other players, then why cant you do the quest on normal? As i said i'm only level 9 so maybe i'm missing something but when is Normal to hard when you have a group? Solo for the casual player is great; ez mode for people that don't want to hone there skills and get better at the game imo doesn't make much sense. Awarding players that cant get better with the same loot as players that can makes no sense. Even if you think about it in traditional roll playing. experience means you learn and get better at your class. ie. a lvl 10 rogue has more life experience then a lvl 1. why because he has met challenges and overcome hardships to make him a better/stronger rogue. The loot should not bet the same, it should be a direct reflection of the difficulty.

Cyiwin
01-29-2010, 07:23 AM
Is it fair that the rest of us have to carry your sorry a$$ thru a quest because you decided to run everything on casual and are not capable of a real challenge? I play DDO for fun too. You know what's NOT fun? A character full of named items, with no skill, charging off into battle because he thinks he's uber and then wasting resources and/or causing a party wipe. If I wanted a mind-numbing, no-brainer I wouldn't be playing this game. I personally find the fun in the challenge... so do many others.


Personally, if more people had nicer items I can only see it being more useful to me in a group. I would rather play with a well equiped "peewee" gamer than a poorly equiped one. Also if I was concerned about it so much I would avoid the PUGs, then the point would be null.

Jayfunked
01-29-2010, 07:28 AM
Is it fair that the rest of us have to carry your sorry a$$ thru a quest because you decided to run everything on casual and are not capable of a real challenge? I play DDO for fun too. You know what's NOT fun? A character full of named items, with no skill, charging off into battle because he thinks he's uber and then wasting resources and/or causing a party wipe. If I wanted a mind-numbing, no-brainer I wouldn't be playing this game. I personally find the fun in the challenge... so do many others.

Is it fair that the rest of us have to chase your sorry a[dollars] thru a quest because you decided to zerg everything and are not capable of a real challenge as your level 20 Bard bought you a powny? I play DDO for fun too. You know what's NOT fun? A character full of twinked items, with years of skill, charging off into battle because he thinks it's a sprint and then expects us to learn ambushes and traps when they're nullified by the time we get there. If I wanted a mind-numbing chase I wouldn't be playing this game. I personally find the fun in the co-operation and exploration... so do many others.

All the shouts are for more challenge but what is more challenging:

6 experienced toons playing the same dungeon with the same tactics for the billionth time on autopilot.

OR

2-3 twinked toons helping to keep some chaotic inexperienced toons alive through the same quest.

As this mode obviously brings you more challenge (which you like), is casual mode hate really about a percieved difficulty reduction -'Easy button' or is it about a 'We suffered so should they' mentality.

I applaud Turbine for in the space of 6 months they have stretched the game both ways (epic and casual) and in general are making the game more fun rather than more work.

Whichever you like there doesn't really seem to be grounds for complaint.

Que sera sera

Kriogen
01-29-2010, 07:36 AM
Is it fair that the rest of us have to carry your sorry a$$ thru a quest because you decided to run everything on casual and are not capable of a real challenge? I play DDO for fun too. You know what's NOT fun? A character full of named items, with no skill, charging off into battle because he thinks he's uber and then wasting resources and/or causing a party wipe. If I wanted a mind-numbing, no-brainer I wouldn't be playing this game. I personally find the fun in the challenge... so do many others.
Thats the dark side of MMOs. There are other people around. Some are stupid noobs, some are arrogant vets, some are ...

Kreaper
01-29-2010, 07:38 AM
You mean the game hasn't already been made casual and they are gonna make it even easier?

:eek:

biggin
01-29-2010, 07:45 AM
In my opinion, what some of the vets feel is this: if you have 4-6 characters that run a quest at level on normal difficulty and can't finish, you are doing something very wrong. Whether it be from the UI, a bad build, whatever the reason, there is absolutely no reason a group shouldn't be able to finish a quest at level on norm. Now I will admit some quests aren't easy for new players on norm. But I personally hope that casual mode is being implemented as a "tutorial" mode so to speak. You get to learn where traps are. You get to see some mobs. I had trouble when I first started, as did a lot of us. We were tempered by fire. I can honestly say a solo mode would have been nice to tool around a bit just so I could learn the UI. But here's the thing: if quests on normal are too hard, the best thing to hope for is just UI problems.

If the problem is a 8 CON, or you used a main stat as a dump stat, you need to know that from the get go. Do you really want to be stuck in Casual mode for the rest of the time you play the game? We don't hate new players (at least most of us don't). We just want you to join us as part of the community. We want you in our raids, teaching us new tactics. What happens when your playing Casual mode for 3-6 months, building up your character, only to find out that you can't complete a quest on normal? Is that going to be fun? I personally just want you guys to have the option. The option to do quests on any difficulty you want, not to be stuck in Casual for your DDO lifetime. And make no mistake about it, even marginal players with marginal builds should be able to tear through Normal. If you can't, it's probably not the game, no offense. And if you think better gear is the answer, you are truly mistaken. Many of us vets went through a TR without worrying about having twinked gear at every level. All the quests can easily be done on Norm with a little practice. It takes that practice to become a better player.

MissErres
01-29-2010, 08:00 AM
Personally, if more people had nicer items I can only see it being more useful to me in a group. I would rather play with a well equiped "peewee" gamer than a poorly equiped one. Also if I was concerned about it so much I would avoid the PUGs, then the point would be null.

I do avoid Pugs. The only time I ever really group with PuGs is to fill the last few spots of a raid. You know... a raid, where it's very important that people can work together in difficult situations to overcome a challenge. Where all the really good loot/named items are. You know, that stuff they're going to want to be handed to them next.


Is it fair that the rest of us have to chase your sorry a[dollars] thru a quest because you decided to zerg everything and are not capable of a real challenge as your level 20 Bard bought you a powny?

Sorry, my Bard is still only lvl 18. And she only buys pots/wands/scrolls. She doesn't buy weapons or gear. I pull that stuff on my other 18 toons.


I play DDO for fun too. You know what's NOT fun? A character full of twinked items, with years of skill, charging off into battle because he thinks it's a sprint and then expects us to learn ambushes and traps when they're nullified by the time we get there. If I wanted a mind-numbing chase I wouldn't be playing this game. I personally find the fun in the co-operation and exploration... so do many others.

All the shouts are for more challenge but what is more challenging:

6 experienced toons playing the same dungeon with the same tactics for the billionth time on autopilot.

OR

2-3 twinked toons helping to keep some chaotic inexperienced toons alive through the same quest.

I love helping new players thru a quest... as long as they are willing to learn and become better players.


As this mode obviously brings you more challenge (which you like), is casual mode hate really about a percieved difficulty reduction -'Easy button' or is it about a 'We suffered so should they' mentality.

I applaud Turbine for in the space of 6 months they have stretched the game both ways (epic and casual) and in general are making the game more fun rather than more work.

Whichever you like there doesn't really seem to be grounds for complaint.

Que sera sera

It's not about a "we suffered, so should they" mentality. It's about making better players.



Thats the dark side of MMOs. There are other people around. Some are stupid noobs, some are arrogant vets, some are ...

You can say it, it's ok, I know. I'm a b****. But I'm not an arrogant vet. A smarta$$ vet maybe, but not an arrogant one. There are a lot of things I don't know about this game, and don't pretend to, even after 3+ years. But the one thing I do know, is that dumbing down this game is NOT making it better.


You have to remember that being new means you need to work harder to learn the game and acquire resources. I'm in almost the exact situation as you are, i'm new to this game and my highest PC is 9. but instead of showing up to groups unprepared with no pots and "wishing" i had the money to get them. i spend a good portion of my time going out and getting them. Either grinding low lvl quests to sell loot or playing the AH. If you only focus on grinding levels and getting better items, and just expect that one day you'll have money, your going to be in the same situation at lvl 20: wishing. Its the same as any other game.

As for the casual setting, I don't understand why we would ever need one. I understand the solo option is for people that play the game a bit and don't' have the time to invest into the game, and thats fine. In fact i like that option if i cant find a group or if I am having trouble with a dungeon. Some times i'll go on solo just to "try" a dungeon, then i'll go norm. What i don't understand is that if you have the time to put a group together by sitting around and finding other players, then why cant you do the quest on normal? As i said i'm only level 9 so maybe i'm missing something but when is Normal to hard when you have a group? Solo for the casual player is great; ez mode for people that don't want to hone there skills and get better at the game imo doesn't make much sense. Awarding players that cant get better with the same loot as players that can makes no sense. Even if you think about it in traditional roll playing. experience means you learn and get better at your class. ie. a lvl 10 rogue has more life experience then a lvl 1. why because he has met challenges and overcome hardships to make him a better/stronger rogue. The loot should not bet the same, it should be a direct reflection of the difficulty.

Keith, I quoted you because you said it so well. +1.

Kriogen
01-29-2010, 08:20 AM
...You can say it, it's ok, I know. I'm a b****. But I'm not an arrogant vet. A smarta$$ vet maybe, but not an arrogant one. There are a lot of things I don't know about this game, and don't pretend to, even after 3+ years. But the one thing I do know, is that dumbing down this game is NOT making it better.

But it's making it more profitable. I hope people are aware, that since DDO:Unlimited, this game switched into "money mode".

Casual and Epic SoS are a perfect example of this new DDO mode. Get new with easy mode, bribe old with imba epic toys so they don't go away.

Daerius of the Blessed Blades
01-29-2010, 08:22 AM
I applaud Turbine for in the space of 6 months they have stretched the game both ways (epic and casual) and in general are making the game more fun rather than more work.

Epic difficulty gives players the opportunity to obtain Epic level loot that can only be obtained by playing at that challenge level. By that same logic, Casual level should drop lesser loot than the traditional N/H/E levels.

Keeping named loot out of Casual seems to follow the model Turbine already has in place.

Josh
01-29-2010, 08:26 AM
Sorry, but I only play DDO for fun. There is no reason for these things to NOT be available in every difficulty. If Muck spawns, a Muckbane should be able to spawn too.

Want it to be fair? Then don't have the Rare monsters spawn on Casual difficulty. Oh wait, that WOULDN'T be fair.

I might decide to team up with some friends and only ever play the quests on Casual difficulty, don't start saying we should miss out on stuff just because you only play on hard and elite.

So you want all the rewards, but none of the risk? Now THAT'S fair.

krud
01-29-2010, 08:26 AM
if takes half the effort to do it in casual, then half the drop rate sounds fair...
/agreed.

drop rate should go with difficulty. Half xp, half drop rate seems about right. You don't want the casual drop rate so high that powergamers resort to it for farming runs, however, you still want to give the casual player a chance at a lucky pull. Shutting it off completely would be a dumb move.

Catholicon
01-29-2010, 08:30 AM
Maybe we should just ban all the snobs who want to remove Casual from the game just because they never had it when they were new to DDO.

You keep whining about people not learning to play "properly" if they can do Casual but not Normal, well you can say exactly the same thing about people who can play Normal with no trouble but can't survive on Elite.

What's your solution to those players? How about we remove Normal and Hard difficulty and have every single quest in the game as Elite-only? Because if you can't survive on Elite, you shouldn't be playing Normal, right?

You can keep your elitist arrogance and just keep away from those players you deem "not good enough" to be in your uber l33t groups, and we can have fun and take advantage of the more social aspect allowed by having a Casual difficulty without being told we shouldn't be allowed to play casual because you never did when you were learning the game.

Grow up.

Bosco
01-29-2010, 08:32 AM
Although I have not logged onto Lamania as of recent. They already implied that the drop rate goes down on Casual. I imagine the loot drop rate similar to the solo quest in the Inspired Quarters.

MissErres
01-29-2010, 08:33 AM
But it's making it more profitable. I hope people are aware, that since DDO:Unlimited, this game switched into "money mode".

Casual and Epic SoS are a perfect example of this new DDO mode. Get new with easy mode, bribe old with imba epic toys so they don't go away.

Yes, I understand the "money mode". I also see long time players leaving the game out of frustration. Whether rolling up a new lowbie or True Reincarnating an old one it, unfortunately, usually means pugging A LOT in the low to mid levels. The frustration is already there and building quickly. Now Turbine wants to add a way to make bad pugs even worse?? I don't understand how this is good for the population. Casual is not something that is needed, as stated earlier by Keithzor and Biggin. It only promotes the continuation of bad builds and bad play skills. And now they want to be rewarded with named loot drops as well?

Nott
01-29-2010, 08:37 AM
Maybe we should just ban all the snobs who want to remove Casual from the game just because they never had it when they were new to DDO.Which post suggested to you that anyone wants to remove Casual from the game? Perhaps we should instead ban snobs that feel so strongly against people they don't agree with and yet cannot articulate a response based on an actual reading of the posts.

Lots of suggestion to have casual provide adequately diminished returns for the effort, just as normal loot is well below elite loot. No suggestion that I've seen that casual shouldn't even exist.

krud
01-29-2010, 08:41 AM
Yes, I understand the "money mode". I also see long time players leaving the game out of frustration. Whether rolling up a new lowbie or True Reincarnating an old one it, unfortunately, usually means pugging A LOT in the low to mid levels. The frustration is already there and building quickly. Now Turbine wants to add a way to make bad pugs even worse?? I don't understand how this is good for the population. Casual is not something that is needed, as stated earlier by Keithzor and Biggin. It only promotes the continuation of bad builds and bad play skills. And now they want to be rewarded with named loot drops as well?
You mean vets can't handle the random bad pug??? Me thinks they've grown too comfortable and set in their ways with repetitive raiding at end game, that they don't remember the good old days of really bad pugs. I don't see it getting much worse than it was in 2006.

Josh
01-29-2010, 08:41 AM
Is it fair that the rest of us have to chase your sorry a[dollars] thru a quest because you decided to zerg everything and are not capable of a real challenge as your level 20 Bard bought you a powny?

I got some news for you skippy, if someone is *sucessfully* zerging the quest they're way more capable of handling a real challenge than your flower sniffing ass is.

keithzor
01-29-2010, 08:50 AM
Maybe we should just ban all the snobs who want to remove Casual from the game just because they never had it when they were new to DDO.

You keep whining about people not learning to play "properly" if they can do Casual but not Normal, well you can say exactly the same thing about people who can play Normal with no trouble but can't survive on Elite.

What's your solution to those players? How about we remove Normal and Hard difficulty and have every single quest in the game as Elite-only? Because if you can't survive on Elite, you shouldn't be playing Normal, right?

You can keep your elitist arrogance and just keep away from those players you deem "not good enough" to be in your uber l33t groups, and we can have fun and take advantage of the more social aspect allowed by having a Casual difficulty without being told we shouldn't be allowed to play casual because you never did when you were learning the game.

Grow up.

Maybe there is an already established gaming community that have been enjoying this game for, in some cases years. Maybe they don't understand why when a new player comes along instead of learning the game and joining the community they just complain. Devs should be able to focus on taking the game farther, not adhering to new players that cant/wont learn. And as i said earlier I am a new player, i don't expect the game to change for me, get easier so i can catch up. I expect to read up, practice, grind and catch up to a community thats already in place. Furthermore having a casual setting isn't the problem, rewarding players equally for it is.

A. Its not fair to the people that had to work harder.

B. it cheats the newer player into thinking they can accomplish things they cant.

How does it affect the higher level players? Simple: New players running full groups through causal eventually end up as high players looking for raids, and by then they think they know the game, don't want advice and don't understand why they wipe the group.
craw, walk, run.

Casual setting = fine with me; same loot rewards = unfair, both to the established community and to the deceived player that will end up having to learn to play the game the hard way : in a Raid.

Jayfunked
01-29-2010, 08:51 AM
Sorry, my Bard is still only lvl 18. And she only buys pots/wands/scrolls. She doesn't buy weapons or gear. I pull that stuff on my other 18 toons.

in either case - you are starting at level one with a mountain of resources pre-stored for your new toon to burn through the lower levels.

Most new players do not have this luxury.

I love helping new players thru a quest... as long as they are willing to learn and become better players.

This comes across as my way or the highway. A good teacher has more patience. You want them to be as you are now. But without the 3 years experience how can they be.

It's not about a "we suffered, so should they" mentality. It's about making better players.


Of course it is. The concern for these players is what i noticed about you first, not the $$'s you were describing them with.


In red

SoulDecay
01-29-2010, 08:58 AM
Maybe we should just ban all the snobs who want to remove Casual from the game just because they never had it when they were new to DDO.

You keep whining about people not learning to play "properly" if they can do Casual but not Normal, well you can say exactly the same thing about people who can play Normal with no trouble but can't survive on Elite.

What's your solution to those players? How about we remove Normal and Hard difficulty and have every single quest in the game as Elite-only? Because if you can't survive on Elite, you shouldn't be playing Normal, right?

You can keep your elitist arrogance and just keep away from those players you deem "not good enough" to be in your uber l33t groups, and we can have fun and take advantage of the more social aspect allowed by having a Casual difficulty without being told we shouldn't be allowed to play casual because you never did when you were learning the game.

Grow up.

In this post, you use three immediately evident logical fallicies.

The first is the "strawman" - create your opponent's position, then attack it! "You vets just want to remove casual because you never had it! You're snobs, and immature elitists!"

The second is the "Slippery Slope" - If we do This now, surely we'll do That later! "Because if you can't survive on Elite, you shouldn't be playing Normal, right?"

The third is "argumentum ad absurdum" - Taking your opponents arguement, and extending it beyond the boundries of the discussion. "you can say exactly the same thing about people who can play Normal with no trouble but can't survive on Elite."

I'm relatively new. I am a raidleader in my WoW guild. I have a job, a wife, and a 2.5 year old son who's potty training. (Who cares? The point I'm making is that I am not on DDO 24/7. This week, I won't even get to play for more than 30-40 minutes until Sunday, it looks like.)

My agree that casual should have decreased drops. Rare is fine. If it's a 1% chance to drop in casual, it can be like winning the lottery! I got so excited when i pulled my first +1 tome. I STILL haven't pulled a +2. It's fun to get those rare items.

But, c'mon... If I can get everything I need on my own, there's no reason to use the AH. I'm not some uber player, the only high level quests I've solo'd are Eye of the Titan, Finding the Path, and Weapon Shipment. They're all silly easy on normal. I have 1 piece of raid loot (Gauntlets of Eternity from Titan) and *ZERO* greensteel. If I can solo BoP for blood on casual, I'll pretty much never have to group again, outside of raids. I will, because what's the point of a social game you never play in a social context? But it's silly.

So, I'm not some snobby elitist vet (I have yet to meet many of those people, and I've done some of the harder raids with some of the bigger guilds as a PuGgy... and never gotten lecture about how my 28pt cleric is gimp, or my ranger doesn't have sufficently twinked weapons for a level 10.), so it's not that easy.

Unlike Casual.

Memnir
01-29-2010, 09:02 AM
I'm okay with Casual having a reduced drop-rate, even significantly reduced, on named items. But, I would be against outright removal of them from the difficulty setting. Luck, and the chance to roll that amazing roll, has always been a part of D&D - and to take that away completely would be to take away some of the fun of the game.

For the record, I'm against bumping up the odds on Elite. Run on this setting for the challenge, the XP, or the Favor - but to make it a loot run is just as silly to me as the removal of named items on Casual.

Jayfunked
01-29-2010, 09:03 AM
I got some news for you skippy, if someone is *sucessfully* zerging the quest they're way more capable of handling a real challenge than your flower sniffing ass is.

My my you are a bit defensive about it all.

I'm sure you are a very good zerger.

The point being that new players don't get to have an 18th level sugar daddy/mommy/prototype twinking them to the nines.

But in your wrath you missed that bit.

Suddenly I smell a stinkhorn!

I'm still laughing at skippy by the way. +1 rep for that flipper.

MissErres
01-29-2010, 09:06 AM
in either case - you are starting at level one with a mountain of resources pre-stored for your new toon to burn through the lower levels.

Most new players do not have this luxury.

You're right, new players do not have this luxury, and I don't expect them to. But I wouldn't exactly call it a mountain of resources either. I don't really worry about "twinking" my low level characters much, especially since they're raised the quality of starter gear. Yeah, I'll buy pots and dig out an old UWA item or secret door clickie but that's about it. At about lvl 9 tho, that's when they get the gear. ;)


This comes across as my way or the highway. A good teacher has more patience. You want them to be as you are now. But without the 3 years experience how can they be.

No, it's not about "my way or the highway". I've actually learned a thing or two from new players. A fresh set of eyes on the situation is good sometimes. But when it comes down to something as simple as "Stay out of the center of the maze." "STOP!!" "DON'T GO IN THERE!" ... and then they do it anyway because they can't comprehend simple directions, then it's a problem. It doesn't take 3+ years experience to learn that, it take the ability to listen and work as a team.

Of course it is. The concern for these players is what i noticed about you first, not the $$'s you were describing them with.

Actually you musta missed my first post. I believe it was ****. The $$'s were for Catholicon. :p

In green.

Nott
01-29-2010, 09:12 AM
The point being that new players don't get to have an 18th level sugar daddy/mommy/prototype twinking them to the nines.You've made that point a few times now. I think the reason it might get ignored is that your point applies universally. You're right, when I start a new character I have lots to pass down to it, and that makes things incredibly easier for me. But what makes your point universal and not just to one side or another is that I didn't start this way -- almost everyone that ever starts DDO started new and without help or hand-me-downs. Some people did this more than once by starting on a new server. Personally, I started playing on one server, reached a point that I had 3 capped characters (at the level 16 cap), then started fresh on another, without the benefit of my "sugar daddy". And yet I still managed.

On my first server it took considerable time to build my treasure trove. On the next server it took me a few weeks -- not because I knew anyone there, I received no help at all. Because by that time I knew how to play the game a whole lot more than I did the first time around.

My point is you do not need any hand-me-downs to play the game or to have fun. You just need to be willing to go through the same learning curve that everyone has to go through. Teach a man to fish, or set him on fire, or some other pithy cliche.

MissErres
01-29-2010, 09:14 AM
My my you are a bit defensive about it all.

I'm sure you are a very good zerger.

The point being that new players don't get to have an 18th level sugar daddy/mommy/prototype twinking them to the nines.

But in your wrath you missed that bit.

Suddenly I smell a stinkhorn!

I'm still laughing at skippy by the way. +1 rep for that flipper.

Actually, yeah, Josh knows a thing or two about how to zerg *successfully*.

But it's not the gear that makes it possible, it's player skill. The skill comes from challenging yourself. The gear comes from said challenges.

But I guess you missed that bit.

Jayfunked
01-29-2010, 09:16 AM
In green.

Color sprayed into submission.

To be fair my position is rare spawns and rare drops should be about 50%.
Losing them would be silly.

I'm on Cannith since september so bad Pugs is my family. I get upset when people cuss my simple cousin.

He's trying I swear, he just needs nurturing not lecturing.

Cyr
01-29-2010, 09:19 AM
/signed

Remove named loot 100% from casual difficulty loot tables. That would give the proper risk to reward ratio here. You get some lower level random junk loot and some xp for doing something one of those monkey's from Project X could breeze through.

Jayfunked
01-29-2010, 09:19 AM
Actually, yeah, Josh knows a thing or two about how to zerg *successfully*.

But it's not the gear that makes it possible, it's player skill. The skill comes from challenging yourself. The gear comes from said challenges.

But I guess you missed that bit.

Josh didn't say that bit. But it's good to know that gear doesn't affect anything so now it's ok to allow full drops of rares on casual because it doesn't matter.

At least be consistent.

Baahb3
01-29-2010, 09:20 AM
Sorry, but I only play DDO for fun. There is no reason for these things to NOT be available in every difficulty. If Muck spawns, a Muckbane should be able to spawn too.

Want it to be fair? Then don't have the Rare monsters spawn on Casual difficulty. Oh wait, that WOULDN'T be fair.

I might decide to team up with some friends and only ever play the quests on Casual difficulty, don't start saying we should miss out on stuff just because you only play on hard and elite.


But why should you get the same reward for working half as hard? Is this you idea for everything? "I put in half a day today boss but I think I should get paid for the whole day." And don't tell me you are already getting less XP and loot. One level less on the loot tables and quest level does not equate to much.

I am not saying that I agree with the OP...yet, but convince me otherwise. IMO there should be a huge difference in named drop rates on casual. These items are suppose to be special and be worth more, allowing people to gobble them up at the same rate by doing a quest with half the mobs/challenge is not right.

keithzor
01-29-2010, 09:22 AM
My point is you do not need any hand-me-downs to play the game or to have fun. You just need to be willing to go through the same learning curve that everyone has to go through. Teach a man to fish, or set him on fire, or some other pithy cliche.

/agree

I think people have this sense of entitlement. "oh you have a ___ and you only lvl 6? Why don't i get one? No fair!" Never mind the fact that they spent the time getting the item. If i had a bank full of hand me downs i'd use them too. and frankly so would anyone else. People forget that when they see someone with extraordinary gear at lower levels that at some point the "twinks" had to start off the same way.

MissErres
01-29-2010, 09:28 AM
I'm on Cannith since september so bad Pugs is my family. I get upset when people cuss my simple cousin.

He's trying I swear, he just needs nurturing not lecturing.

And I get that. But what you don't understand is that the older players really are not telling you stuff to lecture, we want you to learn... you're simple cousin too. There's a reason some things need to be done the hard way. It's because the game gets harder ... A LOT harder the higher level you get, especially without the uber gear (bound raid gear, not named loot drops on casual). That is why you need the skill to fall back on. With named loot droppin on casual mode, what's the incentive to push yourselves?

I started my own guild to help some old friends that returned to the game, some of them from a 2+ year absence. I gave them time to get their feet wet, showed them a few things, told them about what had changed. Then they got comfortable, TOO comfortable. They hadn't really been challenged yet, and you could tell in their play style. So I took them on a zerg Shroud run with a group that I know runs hard and fast constantly. It was do or die, buff on the run, no stopping, 25 min run. You know what? They made it thru, a little frazzled, but they did it. And they are better players today for it.

Zzevel
01-29-2010, 09:29 AM
So, screw the player over for no reason? I'm glad you're not a dev.

A nice example of an "I suck and it's your fault, make it as easy as possible. I've played WOW and it should all needs to be given to me..." player.

Grow up, if you want the loot they have, play it on normal or hard or elite like they did, there is no easy button in like and the casual difficulty is a joke. If you want to kill everything in one swing, fine, but you shouldn't really expect the same level of loot to drop.

I agree with the poster the easier the difficulty, the less likely (even to 0% on casual) the item should drop. And like a couple other people suggested a higher drop rate the harder difficulty you run.

keithzor
01-29-2010, 09:35 AM
a Nice Example Of An "i Suck And It's Your Fault, Make It As Easy As Possible. I've Played Wow And It Should All Needs To Be Given To Me..." Player.

Grow Up, If You Want The Loot They Have, Play It On Normal Or Hard Or Elite Like They Did, There Is No Easy Button In Like And The Casual Difficulty Is A Joke. If You Want To Kill Everything In One Swing, Fine, But You Shouldn't Really Expect The Same Level Of Loot To Drop.

I Agree With The Poster The Easier The Difficulty, The Less Likely (even To 0% On Casual) The Item Should Drop. And Like A Couple Other People Suggested A Higher Drop Rate The Harder Difficulty You Run.

+1

Baahb3
01-29-2010, 09:44 AM
If the problem is a 8 CON, or you used a main stat as a dump stat, you need to know that from the get go. Do you really want to be stuck in Casual mode for the rest of the time you play the game? We don't hate new players (at least most of us don't). We just want you to join us as part of the community. We want you in our raids, teaching us new tactics. What happens when your playing Casual mode for 3-6 months, building up your character, only to find out that you can't complete a quest on normal? Is that going to be fun? I personally just want you guys to have the option. The option to do quests on any difficulty you want, not to be stuck in Casual for your DDO lifetime. And make no mistake about it, even marginal players with marginal builds should be able to tear through Normal. If you can't, it's probably not the game, no offense. And if you think better gear is the answer, you are truly mistaken. Many of us vets went through a TR without worrying about having twinked gear at every level. All the quests can easily be done on Norm with a little practice. It takes that practice to become a better player.

Very well put. +1 rep

Jayfunked
01-29-2010, 09:51 AM
..you're simple cousin too.


Is that purposely ironic?

Anyway the arrogance that makes you assume I am a poor player because I do not fully agree with your stance is shocking.

It's also amazing that you think people will only run casual until they raid.

No matter what you do there will be leeches who ride the coat tails of better players to get further without any effort.

Then there are players who would like to just chill and enjoy the game at their own pace - these people will no doubt not reach a raid anyway or ever really want to.

Casual is for them.

Taking casual away or removing all rares will only hurt them and not the leeches.

The leeches will still be leeches riding your coat tails on normal/h/e until the raids where they will mess up your run anyway.

You can't make people want to learn or necessarily do it your way.

More options is better. No drops for casual is bad - low drops for casual + low rare spawns is good.

krud
01-29-2010, 10:05 AM
Maybe there is an already established gaming community that have been enjoying this game for, in some cases years. Maybe they don't understand why when a new player comes along instead of learning the game and joining the community they just complain. Devs should be able to focus on taking the game farther, not adhering to new players that cant/wont learn. And as i said earlier I am a new player, i don't expect the game to change for me, get easier so i can catch up. I expect to read up, practice, grind and catch up to a community thats already in place. Furthermore having a casual setting isn't the problem, rewarding players equally for it is.

A. Its not fair to the people that had to work harder.

B. it cheats the newer player into thinking they can accomplish things they cant.

How does it affect the higher level players? Simple: New players running full groups through causal eventually end up as high players looking for raids, and by then they think they know the game, don't want advice and don't understand why they wipe the group.
craw, walk, run.

Casual setting = fine with me; same loot rewards = unfair, both to the established community and to the deceived player that will end up having to learn to play the game the hard way : in a Raid.
I think you are directing your concerns in the wrong direction. You have to think beyond the newb vs vet mentality and see how it affects the game at all levels. The bigger concern with casual setting and rare loot is more with high end loot and the powergamer. Make it more worthwhile to farm quests on casual and it will become the preferred setting for powergamers. People who stick to casual play are people who only have a few hours a week to spend playing DDO. They won't be the ones acquiring gobs of loot with casual play, even if drop rates for casual aren't lowered. It's the people who spend endless hours farming loot that will come out ahead if casual setting becomes the default loot mode.

scale rare drops for casual with the xp (~50% less than normal) and I think you'll avoid turning casual setting into loot mode.

Almerel
01-29-2010, 10:14 AM
I think we all need to take a step back and breath a bit. I propose a night out to let off some steam...

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f141/Almerel/peepshow.jpg

ddaedelus
01-29-2010, 10:17 AM
But, c'mon... If I can get everything I need on my own, there's no reason to use the AH.

I don't really think that is an argument that supports anything. If Turbine wanted to encourage us to use the AH, I would think they'd actually, you know, add a search function or something to it.

I couldn't care less about this discussion (except for its amusement value). I solo. I've only used "solo" setting on the two or three quests that require it. So I don't care what they do with it or how the drop rates work.

However...

As for this notion of someone soloing on "casual" setting exclusively then ruining someone's raid... I just don't see that happening.

I think people will use "casual" setting when they have to grind a quest for an item, or they might use it to get a feel for a quest before trying it on a more difficult setting, or maybe some 8 year old might use it. But the idea that someone will only play on the casual setting and no other, leveling at 1/2 the rate anyone else would, repeating quests twice as often as normal to make up for the lack of xp... sorry, I don't buy it.

Moreover, I also find it difficult to believe that that same person, having soloed to level 18 purely by casual-difficulty questing, will end up in one of Missy's end game raids. In fact I find the idea of that happening laughable. First, someone who solos an entire game on casual is NOT the same kind of person who raids. Second, when you're looking to fill that last raid spot, do you really take *anyone* who asks?

And even if our hypothetical player did somehow decide "hey let's try raiding," at the very worst you would identify that person as a complete idiot within ten seconds of the invite (as soon as he said "share pls" and "where is the entrance") and you would boot him.

Face it: it is *much* more likely that Missy (and other skilled players) will run into one of those run-of-the-mill ranger18/rogue2 clone players who can't tell their *** from a hole in the ground and were carried by their friends through elites all the way to level 20 in less than a month and still have no idea how to play their character.

All this concern about exclusively casual-difficulty players ruining raids... I think it's irrational supposition and misplaced worry at best. There's a hurricane of bad players out there (and always has been) and you all are worried about someone turning on a fan.

My "I'm bored at work" rant for the day. :)

keithzor
01-29-2010, 10:17 AM
I think you are directing your concerns in the wrong direction. You have to think beyond the newb vs vet mentality and see how it affects the game at all levels. The bigger concern with casual setting and rare loot is more with high end loot and the powergamer. Make it more worthwhile to farm quests on casual and it will become the preferred setting for powergamers. People who stick to casual play are people who only have a few hours a week to spend playing DDO. They won't be the ones acquiring gobs of loot with casual play, even if drop rates for casual aren't lowered. It's the people who spend endless hours farming loot that will come out ahead if casual setting becomes the default loot mode.

scale rare drops for casual with the xp (~50% less than normal) and I think you'll avoid turning casual setting into loot mode.

I agree, i think both are valid issues.

Fattiest
01-29-2010, 10:20 AM
After reading most of this post I have to disagree with removing named drops completely from quest. I think that a reduced rate of drop is more appropriate for casual. If they are dropping the XP and the Standard Loot Table, then the named loot rate should see a decrease as well. What’s fair? That’s up for debate but I think an appropriate decrease for 50% from normal would be about right for the effort put forth.

It seems that a lot of the newer players have a problem with this opinion of the “VET’s” on this matter. And that’s understandable because if I were new and seeing a “Vet” player crush dungeons while I struggle to stay alive I would envy them as well. The ability to crush dungeons does not alone come from loot though, most of it has to do with the build, feats selected, playstyle, knowledge of the quest, ect. I could have the best gear in the game but if I don’t have a good grasp of the game, strategy, build/gear optimizing, team play in a difficult situation, all the gear in the world does not mean a thing and I will be a twinked terrible player that is a burden to the group in a group based game.

So I think that my opinion on Casual play and loot is based more upon the character/player not learning the skills that are needed in highend/more difficult quest and being a burden to the group in a Group based game than it is about Entitlement aspect of it. Do I see a lot of Entitlement In this game by newer players,,,, you bet. That’s a different conversation.

As far as people complaining about how a quest is ran. Never join a group and expect them to run it your way. If you want a quest to be ran a certain way ”Zerg or Crawl” make a group or join one that has that listed in the LFM. Period. If you join my Zerg group and complain that were going to fast you will be black balled and dogged the entire quest for being a Dumba$$.

EKKM
01-29-2010, 10:36 AM
My personal opinion is that the drop rate should affect the difficulty. Ie less chance from named loot/ flagging gear as it is less difficult.

From what I understand of the tesing on Lammania that seems to be the case. For instance the drop rate of shards in the dreamin dark area is 50% of the drop rate on other difficulties.

My personal use for casual will be to learn some of the more complicated instances (like crucible for instance) so I dont have to deopend on others to lead them. ALthough I've played for 2-3 years, I have been pretty casual so I dont know all the instances as well as a lot of people.

biggin
01-29-2010, 10:42 AM
I don't really think that is an argument that supports anything. If Turbine wanted to encourage us to use the AH, I would think they'd actually, you know, add a search function or something to it.

I couldn't care less about this discussion (except for its amusement value). I solo. I've only used "solo" setting on the two or three quests that require it. So I don't care what they do with it or how the drop rates work.

However...

As for this notion of someone soloing on "casual" setting exclusively then ruining someone's raid... I just don't see that happening.

I think people will use "casual" setting when they have to grind a quest for an item, or they might use it to get a feel for a quest before trying it on a more difficult setting, or maybe some 8 year old might use it. But the idea that someone will only play on the casual setting and no other, leveling at 1/2 the rate anyone else would, repeating quests twice as often as normal to make up for the lack of xp... sorry, I don't buy it.

Moreover, I also find it difficult to believe that that same person, having soloed to level 18 purely by casual-difficulty questing, will end up in one of Missy's end game raids. In fact I find the idea of that happening laughable. First, someone who solos an entire game on casual is NOT the same kind of person who raids. Second, when you're looking to fill that last raid spot, do you really take *anyone* who asks?

And even if our hypothetical player did somehow decide "hey let's try raiding," at the very worst you would identify that person as a complete idiot within ten seconds of the invite (as soon as he said "share pls" and "where is the entrance") and you would boot him.

Face it: it is *much* more likely that Missy (and other skilled players) will run into one of those run-of-the-mill ranger18/rogue2 clone players who can't tell their *** from a hole in the ground and were carried by their friends through elites all the way to level 20 in less than a month and still have no idea how to play their character.

All this concern about exclusively casual-difficulty players ruining raids... I think it's irrational supposition and misplaced worry at best. There's a hurricane of bad players out there (and always has been) and you all are worried about someone turning on a fan.

My "I'm bored at work" rant for the day. :)

I see your point but have to disagree. In another one of these "casual setting" threads, a new player said he doesn't know why he can't complete a quest solo on his barb without needing to drink 1 pot. I know alot of vets and new players see this as a good opportunity. I see a lot of valid agruements for soloing casual. I think it just makes a lot of us cringe when we read "We have 6 level 4-5's and can't complete a quest on Normal so make it easier." And to be honest, IMO, I think if they removed the ML from greensteel and fitted them out with Min II's they still would have a tough time. While I agree that what other player's have means absolutely nothing to me (I even try to find low clerics new to the game and help fit them out a bit), I think if they have something to strive for it would in turn make them better players.

Josh
01-29-2010, 10:50 AM
My my you are a bit defensive about it all.

I'm sure you are a very good zerger.

The point being that new players don't get to have an 18th level sugar daddy/mommy/prototype twinking them to the nines.

But in your wrath you missed that bit.

Suddenly I smell a stinkhorn!

I'm still laughing at skippy by the way. +1 rep for that flipper.

No, I am perfectly aware that new people don't have a few mules of twink gear. You know what? Neither did I when I first started playing. That's besides the point though.

You implied that it wasn't fair that you had to "chase your sorry a[dollars] thru a quest because you decided to zerg everything and are not capable of a real challenge as your level 20 Bard bought you a powny?". I pointed out that the zergers are more capable of handling a challenge than you are. That's is a fact.

I guess it's not fair that I've played since launch and have twink gear. "Fair" has nothing to do with it actually. Put the time in and earn your own gear.

Gunga
01-29-2010, 10:55 AM
I like this idea.

However, I'd like for them to wait to implement it until after I've acquired 10 of every piece of named loot in the game.

Thank you.

Josh
01-29-2010, 10:58 AM
Josh didn't say that bit. But it's good to know that gear doesn't affect anything so now it's ok to allow full drops of rares on casual because it doesn't matter.

At least be consistent.

I didn't think I needed to say "that bit". Sabbat is well known as zergers on Ghallanda. But perhaps you didn't know that. Sam actually wanted to call it "GOGOGO".

I'll be consistent. No named drops on casual. No risk, no reward. You want good gear, no problem. Earn it.

JOTMON
01-29-2010, 11:07 AM
Casual mode makes sense to me. not everyone plays uber toons and can grind quests for several hours every night.
Casual gives the chance for players who don't have all the best gear or perhaps even quest specific gear.

Permadeath comes to mind - can only get gear that you pull from chests, no Auction house or traders or gifts from other toons. Very few of these players have bane weapons, or power weapons. are usually using some weapon that may be good but not great.

It makes sense to me that ransack scaling and loot drop should scale based on difficulty.
something like....

Casual- faster ransack rate and -% for good/named loot to drop
Normal- Normal% loot
Hard - lower ransack rate / +2x% loot
Elite - much lower ransack rate +4x% loot
Epic - no ransack/guaranteed loot drop

This would pretty quickly limit anyone trying to farm on casual as they would have a low %rate drop and ransack quickly. Casual players typically dont play as often so a true casual player would not be adversely affected by the ransack flag and would not be greatly penalized on loot drops as they would still have a chance to get decent loot. Better chances on harder levels encorage players to try more difficult and challenging quests.

Anyone running epic has a lot invested and every epic run is a costly run so should have benefits to compensate, a guaranteed drop makes it worthwhile.

Josh
01-29-2010, 11:53 AM
Permadeath comes to mind - can only get gear that you pull from chests, no Auction house or traders or gifts from other toons. Very few of these players have bane weapons, or power weapons. are usually using some weapon that may be good but not great.

I can guarantee you that almost ZERO PD'ers are going to run casual difficulty. Why do you think they are PD in the first place? For LESS of a challenge?

bobbryan2
01-29-2010, 11:54 AM
Well, it shouldn't be removed entirely. There's no real reason to keep bad players even worse.

But it should be inefficient. You don't want all the elite raiders running casual to farm stuff.

As long as the drop rate is 1/3 to 1/2 of normal, it'd be fine.

Renvar
01-29-2010, 11:55 AM
Lots of games have difficulty settings. The idea is for new players to be able to learn the game, controls, options, and have some success and reward to encourage futher skill development and continued play at progressively harder difficultly levels.

Casual play is great for that. I don't think many people will play strictly casual setting and level and consider themselves uber. If the do, they are deluded. Most people will start with casual but will want increasing challenges and work their way up. These options to more slowly step up may not have been available 3 years ago and people then may have been thrown into the fire, but the game also lost a lot of players 3 years ago. Hard to say if a more forgiving learning curve might have prevented some of that loss.

Turbine is a business trying to make money. Casual play will help with retention of newer players who will, most likely, transition into regular, paying players on progressively harder difficulties.

Casual play also helps with solo players. Now, I've heard people say this is an MMO, go play another game if you want to solo, but the reality is there are people who like DDO and want to solo, for whatever reason. Turbine should provide a product that serves this market as well and generates revenue. No reason not to. The avid/totally soloist has virtually no impact on the rest of the gaming community (since they choose not to participate in the community aspects).

I make these first two points because I saw a number of posts regarding the existance casual play and negativity regarding it's impact on the community. The reality is that Turbine needs to provide a product that appeals to a wide a range of skill and experience sets as possible so that they can attract and retain new business. The elite/powergamer needs to accept that this part of the marketing is necessary to keep the lights on and content flowing.

That said, I agree that the rewards should scale with the difficulty. This gives reasons to promote players to want to continue to progress up the difficulty scale. There needs to be additonal reward for additional effort and skill. No reason Casual loot/end rewards should yield the same results as even Normal, let alone elite. Turbine's goal is to encourage continued play and that is not served by making everything available at the lowest difficulty setting. Otherwise, players will become bored too easily and move on. It is a delicate balance between making the game too easy and making the game too frustrating. I don't envy the Dev's in this regard, but multiple difficulty setting options with proportionately increasing rewards seems to make a lot of sense to me.

My 2 cp.

JOTMON
01-29-2010, 12:02 PM
I can guarantee you that almost ZERO PD'ers are going to run casual difficulty. Why do you think they are PD in the first place? For LESS of a challenge?

Dont get me wrong, seems to me playing permadeath is a much more challenging way to play. Like starting from scratch with no hand-me-downs or outside help. Reliable teamplay and a more cautious mindset with challenges. It is an interesting play concept, but I play way to reckless for that style so I cant see myself lasting very long.

A lot of unique builds come out of it that would never survive endgame, but the focus is not about endgame, and the build tends to work around gear acquired not gear that can be purchased or farmed.

Casual gives another level to test out a quest and work with party members that are more newbish, getting them into the pattern of the challenge of the quest.

But really deos it matter, as long as we are having fun playing the game and playing with people we have fun with.

Josh
01-29-2010, 12:10 PM
Dont get me wrong, seems to me playing permadeath is a much more challenging way to play. Like starting from scratch with no hand-me-downs or outside help. Reliable teamplay and a more cautious mindset with challenges. It is an interesting play concept, but I play way to reckless for that style so I cant see myself lasting very long.

A lot of unique builds come out of it that would never survive endgame, but the focus is not about endgame, and the build tends to work around gear acquired not gear that can be purchased or farmed.

Casual gives another level to test out a quest and work with party members that are more newbish, getting them into the pattern of the challenge of the quest.

But really deos it matter, as long as we are having fun playing the game and playing with people we have fun with.

Ask Parvo what he thinks about casual.

Nuff said.

ddaedelus
01-29-2010, 12:11 PM
I see your point but have to disagree. In another one of these "casual setting" threads, a new player said he doesn't know why he can't complete a quest solo on his barb without needing to drink 1 pot. I know alot of vets and new players see this as a good opportunity. I see a lot of valid agruements for soloing casual. I think it just makes a lot of us cringe when we read "We have 6 level 4-5's and can't complete a quest on Normal so make it easier." And to be honest, IMO, I think if they removed the ML from greensteel and fitted them out with Min II's they still would have a tough time.

The barb is complaining because he needs one potion to solo a full quest? :eek: I'm sorry, but I can't take that seriously at all. The only reason he might have this complaint is because at low levels potions are ridiculously overpriced (a sign of a poorly thought out game economy, IMO). If he's mid or higher level and still making this complaint, then I really don't know what to think. Maybe he should roll a paladin. Potions clutter my inventory like breeding rabbits. I've healed 200 health with cure light potions without a thought and not one of them bought in a store.

It *should* make you cringe when you see people complain that "We have 6 level 4-5's and can't complete a quest on Normal so make it easier." But my point is that these same people are *not* going to ruin a veteran raider's game experience because those people will rarely (if ever) be in a veteran raider's party.


While I agree that what other player's have means absolutely nothing to me (I even try to find low clerics new to the game and help fit them out a bit), I think if they have something to strive for it would in turn make them better players.

I'm assuming you're talking about drop rates of gear in casual difficulty here.

I think you're being a bit over-optimistic if you think that promises of better loot will make people better players. This is not work, where you might decide to try to improve your skills in order to get a pay raise or an end of year bonus. This is a game. You improve because you enjoy the feeling of having improved.

Josh
01-29-2010, 12:14 PM
But my point is that these same people are *not* going to ruin a veteran raider's game experience because those people will rarely (if ever) be in a veteran raider's party.

They might make it in once. Then, when it becomes apparent how gimp they are they'll make the "friends" list xD.

ddaedelus
01-29-2010, 12:18 PM
Well, it shouldn't be removed entirely. There's no real reason to keep bad players even worse.

But it should be inefficient. You don't want all the elite raiders running casual to farm stuff.

As long as the drop rate is 1/3 to 1/2 of normal, it'd be fine.

Regarding loot drop rates on casual, I'd agree with ^that^.

Though in my experience a bad player with good loot makes a terrible player. ;)


They might make it in once. Then, when it becomes apparent how gimp they are they'll make the "friends" list xD.

Precisely. :D

DnD3
01-29-2010, 12:55 PM
I'll give a stupid suggestion: Make it harder for people to get Named Items the higher level they are with the quest that way farming is next to impossible for higher toons!

See where I'm going with? Hell no leave the drop rate the same on casual. They are doing it to attract more casual players, not alienate them...

SoulDecay
01-29-2010, 01:02 PM
I'll give a stupid suggestion: Make it harder for people to get Named Items the higher level they are with the quest that way farming is next to impossible for higher toons!

See where I'm going with? Hell no leave the drop rate the same on casual. They are doing it to attract more casual players, not alienate them...

So, wait, the casual players will be alienated if they can't skate through non-challenging content in a few minutes, and collect "teh-ubar-lootz" all the time?

Gee, I should tell my boss that it's not fair that he gets paid more for doing a harder job. I should demand that minimum wage be raised to whatever Bill Gates makes an hour - I'm alienated by working "hard" (surfing the DDO forums 6 out of 8 hours a work day) and not getting the same rewards!

(/sarcasm)

ddaedelus
01-29-2010, 01:08 PM
So, wait, the casual players will be alienated if they can't skate through non-challenging content in a few minutes, and collect "teh-ubar-lootz" all the time?

Gee, I should tell my boss that it's not fair that he gets paid more for doing a harder job. I should demand that minimum wage be raised to whatever Bill Gates makes an hour - I'm alienated by working "hard" (surfing the DDO forums 6 out of 8 hours a work day) and not getting the same rewards!

(/sarcasm)

If you really, honestly think that comparisons between gaming and work are valid, you are playing the wrong game. The motivations and goals of work and games are completely, utterly different.

uhgungawa
01-29-2010, 01:09 PM
All you need to be able to do quest on norm is Not completely suck. No need to be uber, just not suck. If you are whining that you need an easier mode because norm is too hard, then yes you really do suck. This is why they came out with .....
http://pixelatedgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/hellokittyonline.png

Go ahead, give it a try. And if you find that too hard for you, just give up and go back to tearing the pages out of your Gold Seal books :rolleyes:

Gunga
01-29-2010, 01:14 PM
If you really, honestly think that comparisons between gaming and work are valid, you are playing the wrong game.

Or he has the wrong job.


The motivations and goals of work and games are completely, utterly different.

Pfft. This is way more subjective than you make it out to be.

SoulDecay
01-29-2010, 01:18 PM
If you really, honestly think that comparisons between gaming and work are valid, you are playing the wrong game. The motivations and goals of work and games are completely, utterly different.

I'm talking about entitlement, not my motivation for playing.

My motivation for playing isn't "I want all the loot handed to me", it's "I want to earn some loot through a combination of good play and good luck.". I do quests/raids where there is 0 loot for me all the time (VoD on a cleric. Yay.) because the quest is fun and challenging, or because I recognize someone in the LFM I want to play with, or to work towards my 20th.

"It's a game" is not justification to have everything. Whether you're playing DDO or Guitar Hero or Final Fantasy or Mario Brothers, you still have to work to get through the game, do the bonus things, and "win" in the end.

And, I like to think that a job where I can spend most of my time surfing the web is a pretty good one. :)

Jayfunked
01-29-2010, 01:54 PM
No, I am perfectly aware that new people don't have a few mules of twink gear. You know what? Neither did I when I first started playing. That's besides the point though.

You implied that it wasn't fair that you had to "chase your sorry a[dollars] thru a quest because you decided to zerg everything and are not capable of a real challenge as your level 20 Bard bought you a powny?". I pointed out that the zergers are more capable of handling a challenge than you are. That's is a fact.

I guess it's not fair that I've played since launch and have twink gear. "Fair" has nothing to do with it actually. Put the time in and earn your own gear.

This is a quite brilliant post.
First you eloquently highlight that it takes years to get where you are and later ask me to put in the time myself....

but let's make it clear this is not a bitter 'I did it so should they argument'.


In between that you somehow felt the need to remind us all - Again - how zergers are better then me. Fact. Very dramatic.
I'm sorry i offended your sense of self. If you like your sword can be bigger then my sword - I'm just not always in a rush to finish prematurely.

As i've stated my position before in this thread i'll state it again - 50% rare drops 50% rare spawns seems about right to me.

Someone else had a commendable point about ransacking rates which was also very good.

In either case insular arguing is not productive so have a great weekend - If I ever role on Ghallanda i'll come race through a dungeon with you. I've got a dex based paladin wuth maxed charisma and shuriken Feat and 1 level of rogue at level 2 for open locks. Nabbed myself a tidy pair of spectral gloves. And you think i can't cut it.... look out for me!

biggin
01-29-2010, 02:00 PM
The barb is complaining because he needs one potion to solo a full quest? :eek: I'm sorry, but I can't take that seriously at all. The only reason he might have this complaint is because at low levels potions are ridiculously overpriced (a sign of a poorly thought out game economy, IMO). If he's mid or higher level and still making this complaint, then I really don't know what to think. Maybe he should roll a paladin. Potions clutter my inventory like breeding rabbits. I've healed 200 health with cure light potions without a thought and not one of them bought in a store.


Yep, went back and tried to find the post but couldn't sift through it all. Lot's of casual play threads. :) But these were 2 examples of posts I read, not extreme theoreticals I made up. I know most new players don't have these problems. There are a lot of new players that have been turning out great. But most of them took the few minutes to read the forums while the game downloaded and figured out a few things.

[/QUOTE]
It *should* make you cringe when you see people complain that "We have 6 level 4-5's and can't complete a quest on Normal so make it easier." But my point is that these same people are *not* going to ruin a veteran raider's game experience because those people will rarely (if ever) be in a veteran raider's party.[/QUOTE]


Before casual play goes live we're having those problems already. Not ruining per se, but no matter how many times you say, "Noone hit the Storm Reaver, let the tank hold the aggro please", without a doubt 3 firewalls pop up right on top of him.....

[/QUOTE]
I think you're being a bit over-optimistic if you think that promises of better loot will make people better players. This is not work, where you might decide to try to improve your skills in order to get a pay raise or an end of year bonus. This is a game. You improve because you enjoy the feeling of having improved.[/QUOTE]

The only reason I think this is from first hand experience. When I TR'd, my guild leader and I threw up a LFM for some GH stuff, had a few new players. While we were waiting for someone to catch up, he pulled out his GS bow to knock out a few slayers. When that lightning strike went off you would have that Jesus came back. "HOLY &^%, WHAT THE (*&( WAS THAT!" We took the few minutes to explain and I'm sure even the wizzy wanted one. ;) I do think that better gear is a good incentive. In my mind, when I started, I had visions of slaying dragons with 10 ft. long swords. I believe that most new players have the same vision and want to be that "Mighty Dragonslayer".

Chai
01-29-2010, 02:00 PM
I'm reading almost everything and write almost never but current situation leave me no choice but to say my opinion about changes that are coming. For those who don’t like idea of making game simple I know what you feel but there is a way to have more fun just play elite I did it and got really huge amounts of favor :).
As it comes to casual difficult in my opinion they should turn off drop of named items and everything will be ok so that nice name loot cannot be farmed. Also I will love idea to improve drop rate of named loot on elite diff.

After 28 replys

Some of you really don’t get my point on this.

1. I’m also newbie I play like 3 months in this game so I got 2 main characters on 2 different servers 14lvl sorcer on Ghallanda and 8lvl Pal/War on Cannith and I really enjoy the way it is now. (f2p with GH/Tangleroot i got tp for vale now)
2. With my Sorc I can solo most of GH quests I got quite skill for that because I have played a lot of others mmo and fps games (not much now child and wife keep me in real world). But quests with the named loot now on normal are hard enough to run them with party not solo I’m worried because I know that I’m lazy and if I see that I can solo everything easy I will do that. Than game will become more grinding than fun (habit from past) and I lose interest in game.

The point isnt to keep new players in casual dungeons forever....

I dont think people will be getting crazy epic rewards for soloing casual difficulty dungeons, but if someone does pull something nice once in a while its still cool in my book. WHen I played around with this on the test server, it looked to me like the quest level was dropped, as well as loot reward and xp, by well over half.

Therilith
01-29-2010, 11:18 PM
From what I understand of the tesing on Lammania that seems to be the case. For instance the drop rate of shards in the dreamin dark area is 50% of the drop rate on other difficulties.

What about raid flagging and "special" drops like adamantine ore and the 50 Draconic Runes you get from completing SoS?

DoctorWhofan
01-30-2010, 12:43 AM
You mean vets can't handle the random bad pug??? Me thinks they've grown too comfortable and set in their ways with repetitive raiding at end game, that they don't remember the good old days of really bad pugs. I don't see it getting much worse than it was in 2006.

I PuG for 4 years.

I am KNOWN fortaking hard quests and difficult groups and leading them to success. Not always, but a good majority of the time.

I am a vet.

I understand that casual is solo with real players, awesome. For the guys who log in once a week.

I understand the money aspect.

There is very fine line between profit and destroying the game. SWG anyone? Giving everyone Jedi and nerfing and/or removing whole classes destroyed that game.

We vets have been with this game for a long time. THis game is still here, because we vets stuck through, thick and thin, and paid our $15 a month.

We asked for the game to be a bit easier. We had a VERY ROUGH time playing the game back in the day, and did not want newer players to feel our torment.

But there is a FINE LINE....

Where isthat line between the easy button and too hard?

Where is just right?

I really cannot aswer that question, and neither can you. My "just right" is differnent than yours.

I think that was the orginal purpose of this thread. To ask that question and receive opinions from all. WHat isthe general consistance of "just Right"

Here is purposal:

Casual is half the difficulty of normal. Loot and XP should drop to half. and named loot, whether it is Bloodknuckle's Loincloth or Maelstrom: THe Precentage drop should be cut in half.

The bottom line is if you do a raid on normal, you on ly have a certain chance of getting loot drop. It goes up with difficulty. THis is a rule Turbine has established from day one. And it makes sense. Therefore, the oppisete should be true. I cannot see justifying giving you the great rewards for not suffering as the party on elite did. THat casual, once a week player doesn't care. He's playing a game. But if you want to be a vet/regular player/new player who likes challenges but don't play like one, then why should you be rewarded as one?

After 4 years, I do not wish to seethis game go like SWG. If you think "vets" are raining on our parade, so be it. I cannot dissrade you or convenience you. But take a long hard look at yourself and ask this question, "AM I looking for jsut right? Or something else?"

ckorik
01-30-2010, 11:35 PM
The bottom line is if you do a raid on normal, you on ly have a certain chance of getting loot drop. It goes up with difficulty. THis is a rule Turbine has established from day one. And it makes sense. Therefore, the oppisete should be true. I cannot see justifying giving you the great rewards for not suffering as the party on elite did. THat casual, once a week player doesn't care. He's playing a game. But if you want to be a vet/regular player/new player who likes challenges but don't play like one, then why should you be rewarded as one?


To the point - I guess from a new players perspective... would it really make any difference?

I don't know all the loot in this game - the examples given (malestrom) can certainly be bought in the AH - I see no shortage of named loot up for sale at any given time - for insane prices for sure.

Looking at it from extremes...

1. All rares spawn in every dungeon - always drop named loot - what are the consequences? Everyone (that bothers) researches the best named loot for their class - and everyone uses the same weapon. What's different from now? Less time spent going after the loot. - Otherwise people can still do this... or just buy what they want.

2. Rares only spawn in elite dungeons - only drop named loot .01% of the time. consequences? Almost no one bothers with the named loot - when it drops 99% of the people will throw it up for sale.

I guess what I'm looking at is - at either end of the extreme there is no difference to game balance. The slider here only adjusts how much you need to farm the same dungeon for a drop you want.

I have no idea what drops what... Being level 8 (almost 9 :) I know muck drops muckbane (and you can casual mode - ooops I mean solo it!) I know that the voice of the master is something I want - and also something I'm having a hard time with (finding a holy weapon - as I'm not good aligned - is not easy).

I'd say outside of muckbane the only thing I use on my character is stuff from end rewards. All that exposition basically boils down to ... taking named out wouldn't really affect me soloing (when I do). Casual = no named loot *still feels* like sour grapes to me though.

I don't understand why you would do that - there are plenty of places in the game where random chance can really smile on you - the gold coins are my biggest example. You could get lucky and get *very* nice stuff - newb or vet - running solo or elite.

So why remove named entirely? Mess with the chance... etc whatever - but keep a chance for stuff to happen for a solo player. That one time they get lucky it might be the best thing that happened to them in game. Stuff like that can make players that stick around.

I for the life of me don't see how it would drastically hurt the game in any way - people who want named loot will still farm it - people who want the easy way will still do it - about the only thing I could think of ... would be that it would tank the AH prices on named loot - if there were more of it. (so instead of 20 malestorm's I'll see 50? Good Grief)

/my 2 cents

Retort
02-01-2010, 02:06 AM
After 92 Replys

Thank you for your opinion this thread Casual = no named loot was named like that because I want to point attention to casual problem and I get that 2000 views in 3 days means that this is important issue for us newbies as well for vets.

From beginning I was supporting lowering drop rate of named items and it seems that majority of us support that Idea the true is that everyone have to earn something with some effort to have both satisfaction and don’t get bored with the game.

When you writing about high lvl players that are farming to get named loot you don’t put attention to the fact that someone who have high lvl is hunting for low lvl loot that will help him only a bit and he cannot farm it for a long time because of ransack.

TO DEV:

It all to prevent for wearing uniforms and keep economy of the game stable.


Soon only F2P will play the game because they have more reasons (getting TP for new adventures, doing all the quests and doing them on elite to get favor, taking more time to lvl, trying to get 32 points build tomes etc.)

Therilith
02-01-2010, 09:21 AM
When you writing about high lvl players that are farming to get named loot you don’t put attention to the fact that someone who have high lvl is hunting for low lvl loot that will help him only a bit and he cannot farm it for a long time because of ransack.

Yeah, but don't forget that with casual, high level players can solo hunt for high level loot.

krud
02-01-2010, 09:37 AM
Here is purposal:

Casual is half the difficulty of normal. Loot and XP should drop to half. and named loot, whether it is Bloodknuckle's Loincloth or Maelstrom: THe Precentage drop should be cut in half.

The bottom line is if you do a raid on normal, you on ly have a certain chance of getting loot drop. It goes up with difficulty. THis is a rule Turbine has established from day one. And it makes sense. Therefore, the oppisete should be true. I cannot see justifying giving you the great rewards for not suffering as the party on elite did. THat casual, once a week player doesn't care. He's playing a game. But if you want to be a vet/regular player/new player who likes challenges but don't play like one, then why should you be rewarded as one?

After 4 years, I do not wish to seethis game go like SWG. If you think "vets" are raining on our parade, so be it. I cannot dissrade you or convenience you. But take a long hard look at yourself and ask this question, "AM I looking for jsut right? Or something else?"
In an earlier reply I did agree with you and others that named drop rate should be lowered on casual difficulty.

/agreed.

drop rate should go with difficulty. Half xp, half drop rate seems about right. You don't want the casual drop rate so high that powergamers resort to it for farming runs, however, you still want to give the casual player a chance at a lucky pull. Shutting it off completely would be a dumb move.

however, my concern is not with casual players. They will never farm quests often enough to make this a problem. This needs to be implemented to thwart powergamers from using casual mode as the main loot farming mode. I also addressed this in an earlier post.

I think you are directing your concerns in the wrong direction. You have to think beyond the newb vs vet mentality and see how it affects the game at all levels. The bigger concern with casual setting and rare loot is more with high end loot and the powergamer. Make it more worthwhile to farm quests on casual and it will become the preferred setting for powergamers. People who stick to casual play are people who only have a few hours a week to spend playing DDO. They won't be the ones acquiring gobs of loot with casual play, even if drop rates for casual aren't lowered. It's the people who spend endless hours farming loot that will come out ahead if casual setting becomes the default loot mode.

scale rare drops for casual with the xp (~50% less than normal) and I think you'll avoid turning casual setting into loot mode.

The main reason for that post you quoted was to address the "casual players are going to ruin all of our raids" mentality. Too many people are focusing on how this all affects the casual newb. They will probably never run into a casual newb to begin with, and most likely it is their fellow non-casual friends and guildies that would take advantage of this more than the casual newb 'boogeyman'.

Horrorscope
02-01-2010, 03:32 PM
So its fair if the players that have stuck with this game for say 3 yrs...

I don't think any successful mmo can dwell on that idea too much. I do believe you pay some homage etc and there are huge perks for being 3 years into the game that a noob will never have.

megathon
02-01-2010, 03:44 PM
Should look at it this way. Most games I've played that had various difficulties. You had very easy where you would beable to finish the game. But to get the better items/ending/whatever you had to finish it on the harder modes. If you want a chance at named loot finish it on normal but at the same time increase the chance of getting named loot slightly as you go up on difficulty. That way you have a better chance at reward for a tougher quest. Just a thought.

Catholicon
02-02-2010, 04:24 AM
I wouldn't mind removing all "named" loot on Casual if and only if it dropped EVERY SINGLE TIME on Elite instead.

Y'know, like Casual = 0%, Normal = 33%, Hard = 66% and Elite = 100%

Therilith
02-02-2010, 04:29 AM
Is there any chance of a dev response to alleviate some concerns regarding the named items?
Update 3 is going live tomorrow, yet we don't know if they actually lowered the drop rate or not.

I guess we could wait and find out for ourselves, but an answer would still be appreciated.

EDIT:

I wouldn't mind removing all "named" loot on Casual if and only if it dropped EVERY SINGLE TIME on Elite instead.

Y'know, like Casual = 0%, Normal = 33%, Hard = 66% and Elite = 100%

I'm not sure if assigning a set drop rate for every unique in the game is a good idea. A bonus/penalty to the base (normal (or, if they don't want people to complain about casual getting a penalty, they could use casual as the base and adjust the drop rates accordingly. Same odds, no whining.)) drop rate would probably be more appropriate.

For example, if an item drops 20% of the time on normal, hard could get a 50% bonus, bumping it up to (0.2*1.50) = 30%.

Chai
02-02-2010, 02:05 PM
There is very fine line between profit and destroying the game. SWG anyone? Giving everyone Jedi and nerfing and/or removing whole classes destroyed that game.

SWG was an excersise in game balancing futility brought on by PVP with some classes being WAY overpowered and some WAY underpowered.

DDO does not focus on PVP so there is no reason to do this. There is also no comparison.

P.S. - I used to hunt Jedi, quite successfully in fact. We formed an Imperial guild solely for that purpose.....

Visty
02-02-2010, 02:07 PM
DDO does not focus on PVP so there is no reason to do this. There is also no comparison.

sadly thats how turbine are going now, improving pvp
just look at heroic surge

Chai
02-02-2010, 03:12 PM
sadly thats how turbine are going now, improving pvp
just look at heroic surge

PVP is still ~1% of the game, and while it may be fun for a few minutes, DDO is not on the scale SWG was or WOW is now where people cry about the power of their class until its changed to suit their PVP desires.

Visty
02-02-2010, 03:15 PM
PVP is still ~1% of the game, and while it may be fun for a few minutes, DDO is not on the scale SWG was or WOW is now where people cry about the power of their class until its changed to suit their PVP desires.

lets see what the future holds

Ironsolid
02-03-2010, 02:02 AM
Hey Guys, Sometimes When I Want To Farm, I Do My Quests Over And Over And Over Again

MissErres
02-03-2010, 02:42 AM
I've had a change of heart. Go ahead and give a chance for named loot drops on casual difficulty, even if it is only half the chance of normal. I'm on medical leave, have tons of time on my hands and 19 toons. I'm sick of runnin slayer when there's nothing going on. With named loot on casual setting I can farm all kinds of stuff... and never ransack all my characters. I can make a ton of money off this!!!

Thank you Turbine for and even EASIER button!!!

KillEveryone
02-03-2010, 03:04 AM
I do think that getting a named item should be non-existant when using the casual mode. Normal is not that difficult even for a toon that isn't twinked or getting plat from a sugar momma. I leveled my bard this way. Normal is not difficult.

I also think that crafting ingrediants shouldn't drop on casual difficulty either.

I can just see some of the lfms...Rainbow in the Dark - Casual difficulty, need to make a bunch of blanks, farming till ransack.

Edit...Disclaimer: I have posted that needed to make a bunch of blanks before. :) Personally I like hard more. It is more fun because of the challenge but people don't seem to like to go on hard difficulty. I'd love to get an elite together just to get the favor but people don't seem to want to do that either.

skolvikings
05-18-2010, 11:40 AM
See... this right here is what I have a problem with. Eventually, your game experience, or lack there of, effects my game experience. It is inevitable that sooner or later someone that has breezed thru the game on easy mode is going to end up in a group with people that actually know what they are doing. Now I don't mind helping new players at all, as long as they actually want to learn and get better. It's the players that are screaming for the "easy button" that get to me. If you want to be good at this game with all the good stuff.... EARN IT! Rise to the challenge, don't expect the challenge to drop to you.

WRONG! If you end up grouping with a bad player, either kick them out of the group, leave yourself, or at least make a note to never play with them again.

DDO is a game that's meant to be fun, and what constitutes fun differs for different people. I never play on casual mode myself, but I can see the attraction. In my case I have a full time job, two small kids, a wife, and a cat. Its hard to play some weeks, so like I said, I see the attraction of casual even if it's not for me personally.

Think of it this way... would you rather have your moral victory with a shrinking player base and have DDO go bye-bye? Or would you rather have the devs take steps to attract and retain new "casual" players, giving them a mode that's playable for them?

Besides, true "casual" players aren't usually going to turn into hardcore RAIDers anyway. If they do, they'll either pick it up and learn, or they won't. Which is no different than every other type of player.