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Vaardalia
01-24-2010, 07:40 PM
So atm I am a lvl 19 ROG w/ a 32 point build picking up stones and items for green weapons I might want to make later on as I hit gain XP for 20. If I go lvl 20 WIZ next time around for a 34 point build by the time I am 36 build will a lvl 10 fighter lvl 10 Mage be valid. I was told the past life WIZ feat helps w/ spell res and maybe I can throw in the ROG past life feat for the sneak attack cool down. I also plan on staying WF as my race.

Looking at an 14 14 16 14 12 12 build at lvl 1 flip floping Fighter one lvl and Wizard the next. Or maybe a def order would work better really wont matter to me. At lvl 20 I plan to have my stats at 18 16 18 18 14 14 (maybe the last point into DEX for dual wield so DEX 15) based off the + 2 to all stats tome I have in the bank and the 36 point build.

I do not know if dual class is frowned on in this game but as with most MMO I would guess it is as most players want you doing one thing really well and not half arsein' two. This is D&D but its also DDO so I figure a Fighter Mage is a thing of the past left for the singal player PC games and the novels. But if its valid I am in 100% as its a lot of fun to play. I do see 18 Wizard 2 Fighter in game a bit, maybe thats the DDO verison of fighter mage?

Guildmaster_Kadish
01-24-2010, 07:42 PM
I'd would strongly recommend against a 10/10 split. There are several excellent builds out there for 18/2 or 16/2/2 splits, however, with WF 16 sorc/2 pal/2 rog being one of the better ones. I'll try to scrounge up a link real quick.

Angelus_dead
01-24-2010, 07:44 PM
This is D&D but its also DDO so I figure a Fighter Mage is a thing of the past left for the singal player PC games and the novels. But if its valid I am in 100% as its a lot of fun to play.
In D&D there are various classes supporting the concept of a Fighter-Mage, most prominently Eldritch Knight, but also many more powerful ones like Abjurant Champion.

DDO includes no features like that, and more than 2-3 warrior levels on a full caster does not make sense.

Guildmaster_Kadish
01-24-2010, 07:45 PM
Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=181901)'s a link to one successful player's build.

Update to level 20 by filling it out with 4 more sorceror levels.

Talamus
01-24-2010, 07:47 PM
I really can't say enough positive things about the 6 ranger/2monk/12 wizard warforged if you are looking for that fighter mage. Tempest evasion caster

Gabrion
01-24-2010, 10:09 PM
10/10 might not be the best split, but if you plan it out beforehand and know exactly what you are in for and how to make it work, then go for it. Just be aware that some builds are easy to play effectively and this isn't one of them - plan, plan, plan! If you aren't dead set on a 10/10 split, look at some of the other gish builds - you can do it a lot of different ways, but a big help in a lot of them is being WF with reconstruct (either 11 wiz or 12 sorc).


In D&D there are various classes supporting the concept of a Fighter-Mage, most prominently Eldritch Knight, but also many more powerful ones like Abjurant Champion.

DDO includes no features like that, and more than 2-3 warrior levels on a full caster does not make sense.

And don't listen to people like this who have too narrow and understanding of the game to be able to work effectively with outside the box ideas.

Kriogen
01-25-2010, 06:12 AM
50/50 split Fighter-Mage was nice by old 2.0 rules. But thats because leveling rules where different.

With 3.0-3.5 rules (DDO is based on 3.5) this is not so. 50/50 split is bad.

One very important thing is, that all classes can 'fight' (as in melee). A well designed Wizard can fight better, yes better, then bad designed Fighter. How to say, game engine does NOT check fighter levels when it calculates if you hit and for how much, it checks Attack Bonus, Strength, special feats, and so on. So a 'primary' Wizard can fight if designed that way.

For 'casting', its different. 'Caster' level counts, because lets say Fireball does 1d6/level damage or Spell Pen check is DC10 + caster level + ... For spells, theres allways some sort of 'caster level' somewhere.

You need to be pure or near pure to be able to hit something with offensive spells. For buffs and heals you don't need to be near pure, but for offensive spells its a must.

Even splits are 'frowned on in this game', because uneven splits work many times better. It's not that your 10/10 would not work, it's just that theres a long list of other 'split's that are better.

For DDO I also have another rule (and not just me, many): Evasion or Capstone.

BurningDownTheHouse
01-25-2010, 06:34 AM
And don't listen to people like this who have too narrow and understanding of the game to be able to work effectively with outside the box ideas.

If by "outside the box ideas" you mean creating builds that are ineffective at end game but fun to play, you are spot on.

On the other hand if you want advice on optimizing a build and considering all the variables while doing so, AD is one of the better choices to turn to.

P.S. and I'm sure that by "narrow understanding" you mean "knows way more about the game than I do, but ruinning my fun in building 'outside the box' toons". :rolleyes:

Gabrion
01-25-2010, 08:30 AM
P.S. and I'm sure that by "narrow understanding" you mean "knows way more about the game than I do, but ruinning my fun in building 'outside the box' toons". :rolleyes:

Right...not like I was there for the only pre-nerf titan kill or anything.

Talking in terms of maximum effectiveness in DDO is just ridiculous. This isn't like real MMOs where you have to strategize that much. Yes there is a baseline functionality your build needs to meet, but battlemages far exceed it.

@OP - to reiterate, 10/10 won't be the best way to pursue this sort of build, but the battlemage concept itself can function well in this game if done right.

BurningDownTheHouse
01-25-2010, 08:41 AM
Right...not like I was there for the only pre-nerf titan kill or anything.

What does that have to do with knowing game mechanics?



Talking in terms of maximum effectiveness in DDO is just ridiculous. This isn't like real MMOs where you have to strategize that much. Yes there is a baseline functionality your build needs to meet, but battlemages far exceed it.

It's true that DDO is much more linient in terms of min/max-ing, it still doesn't make battlemages a usfull addition to a raid group. At best you will be able to perform almost as a good as a pure build in one of your rolls.



@OP - to reiterate, 10/10 won't be the best way to pursue this sort of build, but the battlemage concept itself can function well in this game if done right.

It can function well for soloing and non raid content, as stated above though, it will be a hinderance in a raid group.

Gabrion
01-25-2010, 09:21 AM
What does that have to do with knowing game mechanics?

Srsly?





<snip>

...it will be a hinderance in a raid group.

Right before this you recognize that they are slightly less capable that pure characters at any given role, and then you make a statement like this. A hinderance would be someone who's net contribution to the raid is less than zero. Battlemages can contribute meaningful DPS while also being much more self-sufficient than other melee characters. On the whole they may contribute slightly less than a pure melee DPS in a raid, but saying they are a hinderance is not accurate.

One of the few good things DDO has going for it is that you can be creative with characters builds and still make meaningful party contributions. If you play WoW for instance, there are specific talent specs each class needs to copy to fill a given role. In that game it's not an exaggeration to say a build "isn't viable" when it fails to conform to the cookie-cutter molds.

The more DDO players follow the trend of advertising 3 flavor-of-the-month builds as the only "effective" party members, the more this game loses one of its most valuable qualities.

Angelus_dead
01-25-2010, 09:40 AM
then you make a statement like this. A hinderance would be someone who's net contribution to the raid is less than zero.
A character who is more helpful than an empty slot can still be a hindrance if his contribution is less than could have been provided by someone else invited to the group instead.

Whether or not that turns out to be a concrete drawback depends on how hard the raid is and if the group actually needs effective contributions or not. Many of DDO's raids are quite easy and only a minority of the players actually need to do something towards winning, but that is certainly not a sound defense of building ineffective characters.

Players do not typically find it fun to be successful simply by virtue of having a pulse.

BurningDownTheHouse
01-25-2010, 09:49 AM
Srsly?

Yes, Srsly...
Congratz on "being there", it still doesn't mean you know anything about game mechanics (mind you, I didn't say that you don't, but "being there" is no proof that you know what the hell are you talking about).




Right before this you recognize that they are slightly less capable that pure characters at any given role, and then you make a statement like this. A hinderance would be someone who's net contribution to the raid is less than zero. Battlemages can contribute meaningful DPS while also being much more self-sufficient than other melee characters. On the whole they may contribute slightly less than a pure melee DPS in a raid, but saying they are a hinderance is not accurate.

One of the few good things DDO has going for it is that you can be creative with characters builds and still make meaningful party contributions. If you play WoW for instance, there are specific talent specs each class needs to copy to fill a given role. In that game it's not an exaggeration to say a build "isn't viable" when it fails to conform to the cookie-cutter molds.

The more DDO players follow the trend of advertising 3 flavor-of-the-month builds as the only "effective" party members, the more this game loses one of its most valuable qualities.

Ok, hinderance might be a strong word, sub par will be more acurate i guess.
To be able to be as good as your description, the build will be extremely gear dependet and no mistakes allowed all wraped in a neat package. After all this work you get somthing that can aspire to be average.
Don't get me wrong, i goofed around with the idea myself, but the results were not somthing i would want to inflict on a raid party looking for fast and eficient raiding...

Phidius
01-25-2010, 10:00 AM
...and more than 2-3 warrior levels on a full caster does not make sense.

When it comes to a full caster (utilizing spells with saves and spell pen checks), I totally agree.


I really can't say enough positive things about the 6 ranger/2monk/12 wizard warforged if you are looking for that fighter mage. Tempest evasion caster

I agree with this too :D

Phidius
01-25-2010, 10:02 AM
...Don't get me wrong, i goofed around with the idea myself, but the results were not somthing i would want to inflict on a raid party looking for fast and eficient raiding...

Yeah, my first few battlemages were pretty pathetic too, but I attribute that to not reading the forums, and trying to discover everything the hard way.

I don't recommend that approach.

BurningDownTheHouse
01-25-2010, 10:08 AM
Yeah, my first few battlemages were pretty pathetic too, but I attribute that to not reading the forums, and trying to discover everything the hard way.

I don't recommend that approach.

If I'd have reserched the issue beforehand I woudn't have bothered even trying.
I don't like not getting the best out my builds, but that's a personal taste i guess.

Aaxeyu
01-25-2010, 10:21 AM
I really can't say enough positive things about the 6 ranger/2monk/12 wizard warforged if you are looking for that fighter mage. Tempest evasion caster

Well, the positive things end right after 2monk. 12 wizard levels gimps the character.

Too many free riders around...

Gabrion
01-25-2010, 11:22 AM
If I'd have reserched the issue beforehand I woudn't have bothered even trying.
I don't like not getting the best out my builds, but that's a personal taste i guess.

Wut, 2 hard?

Aaxeyu
01-25-2010, 11:24 AM
Wut, 2 hard?

Not everyone finds it OK to pike.

BurningDownTheHouse
01-25-2010, 12:08 PM
Wut, 2 hard?

2 gimp...

Talamus
01-25-2010, 05:21 PM
Well, the positive things end right after 2monk. 12 wizard levels gimps the character.

Too many free riders around...

Unfortunately, you are mistaken. This is actually an effective build and the 12 wizards allow for it to be both self healing and self buffing. I realize that some people may not be able to pull it off, but a good player can do well with non cookie cutter builds. IF you cannot, blame the player, not the build.

BurningDownTheHouse
01-26-2010, 02:19 AM
Unfortunately, you are mistaken. This is actually an effective build and the 12 wizards allow for it to be both self healing and self buffing. I realize that some people may not be able to pull it off, but a good player can do well with non cookie cutter builds. IF you cannot, blame the player, not the build.

If all you are looking for is self healing and self buffing, go with cleric instead.
Better hp, better buffs, don't have to be a wf to self heal, and heck even have room for blade barier (not to mention better melee capabilities, as you can actually cast an extended divine might).

Sorry, 12 caster = gimp melee.

Aaxeyu
01-26-2010, 07:12 AM
Unfortunately, you are mistaken. This is actually an effective build and the 12 wizards allow for it to be both self healing and self buffing. I realize that some people may not be able to pull it off, but a good player can do well with non cookie cutter builds. IF you cannot, blame the player, not the build.

If it had another 12 ranger levels it would also be self healing and self buffing, and then it wouldn't have crappy DPS.

Taking 12 levels of caster just to get self haste and self healing is self gimpage. It's a purely flavour build, defending it's effectiveness is ridicolous.

I'm sorry but that build is gimped.

hu-flung-pu
01-30-2010, 12:25 PM
The first thing you should consider is race.

Warforged is the obvious choice. But elves and Drow bring something else to the table as well. Beyond arcane fluidity, it's easier to make a dual wielding elf where as with Warforged they benefit more from two handed fighting. What this means is you can dual wield spell casting enchanted weapons as opposed to the just one for warforged. Warforged get self healing in an Arcane/Melee and typically have higher CON scores and racial toughness enhancements.

The second thing to consider is just how you want to play your Arcane/Melee. Is he a buffer with some damage? Or is he full on caster with the abilty to swing a sword.

Now the hard part, spell and feat selections. What spells have no saves, and what spells are going to be effective?

Cloud spells work wonders. Being able to fight in a cloud kill is awesome. Firewall helps your damage out put.

Enervation is a fantastic spell to use to debuff and wade in to combat. Mindfog makes will save spells a TON easier to use.

Next problem, spell penetration. If you can't land a debuff what good is it? Which brings us to the feat selections, and also to a lesser extent your weapon set.

Heighten Metamagic is a must if you're an offensive caster, in fact I'd recommend it on all casters. Same thing with spell focus and greater spell focus. Pick what spell school you'll use the most. Enchantment for crowd control? Evocation for fireballs and lightening bolts? Conjuration has it's uses as well but not enough to make the investment of a feat worth it in my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Depending on which caster class you pick, you might want to pick up mental toughness and improved mental toughness if you can fit it in.

Weapon focus and weapon specialization feats are almost a must. Your to-hit will be among the worst of the Melee's in your group. Picking up the attack bonus action point will help as well.

Being a D4 hit die class your hit points will be abysmal, don't expect a lot of love from your party healer. You can mitigate this a bit with either class selection (Paladin Lay on Hands and wand use.) Or you can Boost your UMD to wand and heal scroll yourself. Arcane wand and scroll mastery affects UMD'd scrolls as well. Alternatively, you can just roll a Warforged and keep Reconstruct equipped at all times. To mitigate this a bit, take toughness once or twice, and be on the look out for items that give you hit point boosts like false life items and the false life spell giving you instant temporary hit points.

This is possibly the toughest multiclass to play effectively.

You won't have the melée abilities of a full on fighter class, and you're never going to have the casting DC's and spell points of a full on caster.

If you play it poorly, it will feel like playing a toon who has multiple personalities. A caster for buffs before a fight or a fighter who hastes and displaces. When you're playing it well you'll develop a feel for it. You create this synergy between the two classes that makes the sum of the parts an awesome beast that crushes anything in it's path.

Don't get trapped in to the mindset of: Your character only took six melée levels! You're a gimped fighter! It's also equally important to not feel like you made a gimped caster because you chose to be able to melee.

One last point of advice, try to establish your caster feats as early as possible. As they don't have level or BAB requirements like fighter feats do like two-handed/weapon fighting do. Getting your casting feats squared away let's you develop your limitations as a caster. While you feel out melée abilities and what your limitations are there as well.

krud
01-30-2010, 03:18 PM
A character who is more helpful than an empty slot can still be a hindrance if his contribution is less than could have been provided by someone else invited to the group instead.

Whether or not that turns out to be a concrete drawback depends on how hard the raid is and if the group actually needs effective contributions or not. Many of DDO's raids are quite easy and only a minority of the players actually need to do something towards winning, but that is certainly not a sound defense of building ineffective characters.

Players do not typically find it fun to be successful simply by virtue of having a pulse.
Thinking along those lines, below what percent of the top dps would one have to have in order to be considered a hindrance? Or are you saying anyone that is below the top tier dps builds is a hindrance because they can always be replaced by a better dps character? There must be some average dps/character desired in a raid group. Can these out-of-the-box builds hit that average? i would think that they can.