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View Full Version : Permadeath opinions - Is Death Pact considered a Rez



kafrielveddicus
01-24-2010, 10:53 AM
Just want to throw this one out to the permadeath community and get some feed back to make sure this is implemented in a proper manner into our guild rules.

Do you think that the Spell Death PAct should be considered a Death and then a Rez???

Keep in mind our guild rules already have the following consequences for deaths;

You may only have as many Deaths as your Base CON
and
Any Death in a quest requires a full recall from the entire group and the instance must be reset

Would love to gather some opinions on this, please reply!!!

Montrose
01-24-2010, 10:58 AM
Just want to throw this one out to the permadeath community and get some feed back to make sure this is implemented in a proper manner into our guild rules.

Do you think that the Spell Death PAct should be considered a Death and then a Rez???

Keep in mind our guild rules already have the following consequences for deaths;

You may only have as many Deaths as your Base CON
and
Any Death in a quest requires a full recall from the entire group and the instance must be reset

Would love to gather some opinions on this, please reply!!!

Spell description (from compendium, may be slightly different in game):

"The spell allows you to enter a pact with your diety that brings you back to life after you are slain. While under the effects of this spell, your constitution is decreased by two, and cannot be restored until you rest."

Seems like dead to me.

~Zornochio
01-24-2010, 10:59 AM
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck :)

Almerel
01-24-2010, 11:01 AM
I would it should count as a death but not force you out of the instance. Since by it's definition it is meant to keep you going in a fight.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-24-2010, 11:06 AM
Whats the purpose of the recall? Why is it a fail for a cleric to cast a spell that's part of their spell list?

Duncani_Daho
01-24-2010, 02:24 PM
About recalling out after being raised: I think permadeath guilds formulated these kinds of rules because the PnP (not sure if it was 3.5) rules say that the experience of being raised is so draining, the character needs an extended rest to recover the strength to quest further.

So in DDO terms that means recalling out, resetting the instance, and symbolically resting to recover spent powers and mana.

Note: it's not absolutely required that all members of the party must abort the mission and recall out. Only the raised character must do so. The others can go for completion if they think they can handle it, though the fallen party member might be miffed about losing out on the xp and reward. But it's a judgement call. And it might come into play at the end of a very long quest, like Tempests Spine or VON 3, etc.

I think the Death Pact situation certainly counts as a death.

Durion
01-24-2010, 02:37 PM
Whats the purpose of the recall? Why is it a fail for a cleric to cast a spell that's part of their spell list?

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that its because that is the style of play they enjoy using. They have strict guidelines that give action/consequence, and that would be the end result.

That being a part of the cleric's spell list won't have any contribution to this, as Raise/Res/True Res are also all part of a cleric's spell list, but for some perma-death guilds, not allowed to be used at all.

I think the OP was just wanting feedback from other perma-death guilds/players on how their respective guilds view this particular spell as it is in the perma-death forums, not feedback from people who don't use that playstyle nor understand the hard work they put into it.

sirgog
01-24-2010, 05:39 PM
About recalling out after being raised: I think permadeath guilds formulated these kinds of rules because the PnP (not sure if it was 3.5) rules say that the experience of being raised is so draining, the character needs an extended rest to recover the strength to quest further.

So in DDO terms that means recalling out, resetting the instance, and symbolically resting to recover spent powers and mana.

Note: it's not absolutely required that all members of the party must abort the mission and recall out. Only the raised character must do so. The others can go for completion if they think they can handle it, though the fallen party member might be miffed about losing out on the xp and reward. But it's a judgement call. And it might come into play at the end of a very long quest, like Tempests Spine or VON 3, etc.

I think the Death Pact situation certainly counts as a death.

It's probably because in P&P casting Raise Dead takes a significant amount of time, and requires a large amount of diamond powder that P&P characters seldom carry with them.

IMO Death Pact is a death (for your total number of raises) but doesn't have the other effects (as it is instantaneous).

parvo
01-24-2010, 11:10 PM
I'm still waiting for the next generation of rule sets that will eliminate raises completely. We call it permadeath, but until it evolves a bit further, it really isn't. It's more like PnP style play. Having said that, some of the guilds now have rule sets that make death hurt as it should. If you call it permadeath and death is meaningless, you might as well not play it.

Narc, you should do something unique with your rule set. Why not have dead characters delete all their loot or be required to solo a level appropriate series on hard difficulty. Permadeath should have more variety but really a lot of the guilds poping up are same ole same ole. Here's an idea, make that spell cost double against the constitution cap?

-- stay hard

Ninjaofthesea
01-24-2010, 11:29 PM
I'm still waiting for the next generation of rule sets that will eliminate raises completely. We call it permadeath, but until it evolves a bit further, it really isn't. It's more like PnP style play. Having said that, some of the guilds now have rule sets that make death hurt as it should. If you call it permadeath and death is meaningless, you might as well not play it.

Huh? I have to admit you now have me baffled. From your history of posts you seek a more challenging style of game play more akin to PnP.

Now you want you want to have an official rule set where even PnP mechanics are no longer allowed? (Not that Death in PnP is typically all that debilitating unless looking at a party wipe.) Are your PnP DM's masochists or something?

KGWiking
01-25-2010, 06:39 AM
It's a death.

I too like PD style of play (obviously).

Here's a valid question though regarding PNP. From my memories of playing PnP (nearly 30 years ago) I do remember one instance where a party was missing their regular cleric - a death occurred - and the body was carried back to the city (a day's march away) and the slain was raised by one of the clerics (for a hefty price mind you).

I don't advocate this as a practice for DDO PD Guilds- but I wonder if "any" people who play in PD guilds have a similar event in their "PnP experience".

KG

KGWiking
01-25-2010, 09:38 AM
As a followup to the PnP model and trying to follow it - or as I phrase it emulate (to model with some degree of success).

I do believe in utilizing this model - but I find that at best the comparisons are difficult as the games are really vastly different.

I confess I played PnP DDO nearly 30 years ago - and played AD&D so I am NOT familiar with many of the 3.5 and other changes.

While I do agree that in how quests are run - and also like the increased challenge I do have a few questions even though I've played DDO for 2.5 years - and pretty much the whole time PD.

1---- Were/are enhancements part of DnD - I don't recall them in AD&D and if they were not are there any guilds that attempt to model their play here on DDO refuse to allow them in character development?

2 --- Why is there no interest in using the AD&D character restrictions - which were significantly more stringent than those that were employed to the best of my knowledge by later versions.

This would include class level restrictions - level restrictions - minimal stat restrictions etc.

I confess when I came to DDO I was shocked to see Drow as adventurers and when i saw Warforged I had a *** moment...later on seeing Dwaven and DROW Paladins gave me more HUH??? moments.

While I love PD play - and I am second to none in my support of it - it seems to one of its biggest proponents that theew is a good deal of talking out of both sides of the mouth on this issue - and I'm as guilty as heck of it at times.

So perhaps a real variant of PD style could start with not allowing enhancements of any kind - and disallow Warforged, Drow as PC's - multi-classing but for AD&D rules, minimal stat requirements - capping levels to advance if multi class is chosen.

Now, that would be "old school" perhaps more "hard-core" in many ways.

I've actually thought of putting some restrictions as optional limitation rules for a set group - minimal stats and character restrictions would seem to make the most sense. Again, I don't know if the later versions of D&D allowed enhancements - but maybe if this is so that might be the next logical step in PnP style.

Didn't mean to step on any toes - but I hope to hear some feedback.

KG

KGWiking
01-25-2010, 10:02 AM
I think that Parvo has a point in that deaths having to hurt in a PD or PnP emulation model, and agree that a permanent loss of Con would be good.

Perhaps a voluntary refusal to take CON bonuses as enhancements (are they in PnP?) is a step in that direction or toughness feats etc would be a step in that direction.

Regarding a one death and you're out - I'm not sure if that translates well where magic and gods and goddesses were an integral part of the game. I guess the Shroud would forever be out :)

In all candor - and I don't claim to be a great player - I doubt any player could get to high level (16+) content - running quests that are on level - or close to it - without one death/resurrection. I have never seen one that could do so while running quests on or close to level - and I know I could be wrong.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried, but heck, if you want to take out cleric abilities to raise the dead - why not take out a Paladin's ability to Holy Smite or an arcane's ability to throw a dimension door. I can see your point that PD could be a misnomer - but I doubt that any significant amount of people would find your proposal enjoyable unless they relish solely running low and mid level content.

So - here's the question - do any have knowledge of ANY PD player hitting Lvl 16 or higher - with 0 deaths while they ran content solely at or above their level. Don't talk about an adventurer with 0 deaths - and yeah I have them and am glad they haven't died - who are level 13 but have a favor of 1200 or so.... I'm talking 1750 plus 0 deaths. I seriously doubt it has been done - and maybe it is a laudable goal - I'm not sure it will ever be done while running content equal to the ability of the adventurer.

Again, I love PD or PnP emulation --whatever you want to call it.

However, maybe all should just stop kidding ourselves about what it is - what DDO is as compared to D&D AD&D basic D&D version whatever. There are vast differences in these game systems.

I'm all for making the game more challenging for intrinsic reasons while trying to "keep it real".

One the other hand I also start to wonder if most of the postulating is not just an online version of a pi******** contest between middle aged (and younger and older) adolescents arguing about a game :)

KG

Impaqt
01-25-2010, 10:07 AM
Its your guild and your rules. THe only people that should be making decisions on how spells effect your Permadeath Guild is your Permadeath Guild.

mistahnice
01-25-2010, 10:08 AM
question am i really dead once i reach -10 hitpoints or is the game just lying to me

KGWiking
01-25-2010, 12:06 PM
Good point Impaqt.

Variety is the choice of life.

Regarding the wide range of choices in PD play I think it is a very good thing.
All of the newer guilds - and I'll take the liberty that VPDG is now a veteran guild and add so is the Core which formed shortly after we did - added to the older three Sublime, MV and EE.

Each of these five guilds offered noteworthy differences in their rules.

Some fo the guilds which have formed lately are due to personality differences - not to be unexpected - and minute - some could say minutia - differences in the rule-sets. I try to keep up but can't.

However, this does offer a wide berth for people to try on - and hopefully can avoid the I like your guild - but I don't like this rule ---- take your pick because each of the 13 or so PD guilds obviously have strong feelings about some aspect of the game that makes them think "my guild is the best".

Variety is good - not everyone wants to play by VPDG rules ---- MV's Rules ---- Sublime's Rules - The Core's Rules etc.

I remember that there was talk of a PD server in addition to a hard core server. Not at all bad ideas - but superfluous. If the intent is to bring about unanimity - good luck. There would be 20 PD guilds or HC or More HC guilds within a month - each saying one is better than the other.

Maybe, guild leaders should maybe not care so much if there is deviation in a guild's rule set --- have some guts and let you guild play the way you want to play. If someone then says "you're not really playing PD" so what --- more proof that a good amount of the posturing is a pi****** contest and stroking one's ..... ego. :)

KG

Chai
01-25-2010, 12:27 PM
To answer this question I have to get a tad rules lawyerish....

/puts on robe and wizard cap.

Death pact in 3.5e assumes someone has died according to the original definition of the spell. (Located here:)

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Death_Pact_(3.5e_Spell)

The DDO version is defined here: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Death_Pact

Note the specific wording regarding being slain and brought back to life.

The spell allows you to enter a pact with your diety that brings you back to life after you are slain. While under the effects of this spell, your constitution is decreased by two, and cannot be restored until you rest.

My informed answer with a small amount of research is: YES - the character dies and is brought back to life.

parvo
01-25-2010, 06:21 PM
...So - here's the question - do any have knowledge of ANY PD player hitting Lvl 16 or higher - with 0 deaths while they ran content solely at or above their level. Don't talk about an adventurer with 0 deaths - and yeah I have them and am glad they haven't died - who are level 13 but have a favor of 1200 or so.... I'm talking 1750 plus 0 deaths. I seriously doubt it has been done - and maybe it is a laudable goal - I'm not sure it will ever be done while running content equal to the ability of the adventurer...

In Mortal Voyage, we just lost two characters who were bluelining eleven (holding at ten) and close to twelve. VoN III on hard. One of the characters was mine. It was his one and only death. Prior to mod nine, we used a formula for level appropriate. Post mod nine, no questing below level and no normal. All hard or elite. No repeats. The point of all that is to demonstrate what has been done. However, I don't play the game solely to progress a character. I play for adventure and let the cards fall where they may. If I played normal difficulty or chose the easiest level appropriate quests, I'm certain I could reach sixteen or higher. Lots of the folks I play with could. But that's not why we play. Frankly, there are many players who are not challenged by the PD rule sets but rather by their own choosing of very difficult quests. Most PD'ers play more for the adventure and challenge than maximum character progression.

KGWiking
01-25-2010, 08:02 PM
I don't disagree with the reason for the challenge - but after awhile the content gets a bit worn out. I mean -- House quests are house quests are house quests.


I agree if character longevity is the goal you can take a route that will get you there.

KG

kafrielveddicus
01-26-2010, 08:43 AM
To answer this question I have to get a tad rules lawyerish....

/puts on robe and wizard cap.

Death pact in 3.5e assumes someone has died according to the original definition of the spell. (Located here:)

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Death_Pact_(3.5e_Spell)

The DDO version is defined here: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Death_Pact

Note the specific wording regarding being slain and brought back to life.

The spell allows you to enter a pact with your diety that brings you back to life after you are slain. While under the effects of this spell, your constitution is decreased by two, and cannot be restored until you rest.

My informed answer with a small amount of research is: YES - the character dies and is brought back to life.

Thanks Chai, for the response to the original post, hope others will chime in on this, I pretty much was thinking down the same line as this, but wanted to be sure it made the most sense.

Gandalfs_Ghost
01-26-2010, 09:17 AM
It is a death no question.
What Im curious about is if your rules mean that someone who gets rezzed from this spell can help others (raise, heal, etc) or would they have to recall immediately.
ie. If you had others in your party also dead would the Death Pact cleric be permitted to raise them before the party recalls, or do they stay dead and the cleric gets a free pass?

Duncani_Daho
01-26-2010, 10:58 AM
In Mortal Voyage, we just lost two characters who were bluelining eleven (holding at ten) and close to twelve. VoN III on hard. One of the characters was mine. It was his one and only death. Prior to mod nine, we used a formula for level appropriate. Post mod nine, no questing below level and no normal. All hard or elite. No repeats. The point of all that is to demonstrate what has been done. However, I don't play the game solely to progress a character. I play for adventure and let the cards fall where they may. If I played normal difficulty or chose the easiest level appropriate quests, I'm certain I could reach sixteen or higher. Lots of the folks I play with could. But that's not why we play. Frankly, there are many players who are not challenged by the PD rule sets but rather by their own choosing of very difficult quests. Most PD'ers play more for the adventure and challenge than maximum character progression.

Playing for adventure and challenge is in the eye of the beholder. Meaning the player and not the eye-tyrant. Most (not all) of the guys I play with in The Core have milked as much adventure and challenge out of ALL quests level 1-8 as is possible for us. The Sharn Syndicate and The Cerulean Hills quests were really challenging at first. And it was a blast going in there with level 3-4 characters, even if they died. The deaths were worth it. But over time, building familiarity and knowing what's around the corner, they became less and less challenging. Now we can duo them on hard with level 4's.

Running Redwillow on hard with levels 4-5 characters, running Proof is in the Poison elite with level 5-6 characters, running Swiped Signet on hard with four level 4's and getting every bonus, killing every mob, it's not so difficult EVEN WITHOUT shrines. Truthfully, there are certain quests we don't attempt under level, and hesitate to run at the same level of the quest, because we know we will need the shrines others allow themselves to use. The Shadow King, Shadow Lord, Shadow Knight. Von III we wouldn't run at level 10 because it's very long and we can't shrine. Remember this: the LEVEL OF THE QUEST IS AN APPROXIMATION OF DIFFICULTY, AND SHOULDN'T ALWAYS BE TAKEN AS AN ABSOLUTE DETERMINATION OF DIFFICULTY. Example: Von III is a level 10 in hard. It's also ten times more difficult than some of the level 13 Gianthold quests (level 14's on hard). I salute a bunch of level 10's for attempting Von III on hard. That would have been a major accomplishment. The same level 10 characters could have CRUSHED Cabal For One, Feast or Famine, Trial By Fire, and maybe other level 13 Gianthold quests. And if you complete level 13 quests, loot those chests and get those rewards, your character's power just improved greatly. Again, I salute you for attempting VON III on hard

So I am convinced the adventure and challenge we seek will be at the upper levels, where we currently are in The Core, level 10-13, with a lot of cool quests on the horizon which I have no idea of whether or not we will be able to complete them. That uncertainty creates the adventure.

kafrielveddicus
01-26-2010, 11:16 AM
Playing for adventure and challenge is in the eye of the beholder. Meaning the player and not the eye-tyrant. Most (not all) of the guys I play with in The Core have milked as much adventure and challenge out of ALL quests level 1-8 as is possible for us. The Sharn Syndicate and The Cerulean Hills quests were really challenging at first. And it was a blast going in there with level 3-4 characters, even if they died. The deaths were worth it. But over time, building familiarity and knowing what's around the corner, they became less and less challenging. Now we can duo them on hard with level 4's.

Running Redwillow on hard with levels 4-5 characters, running Proof is in the Poison elite with level 5-6 characters, running Swiped Signet on hard with four level 4's and getting every bonus, killing every mob, it's not so difficult EVEN WITHOUT shrines. Truthfully, there are certain quests we don't attempt under level, and hesitate to run at the same level of the quest, because we know we will need the shrines others allow themselves to use. The Shadow King, Shadow Lord, Shadow Knight. Von III we wouldn't run at level 10 because it's very long and we can't shrine. Remember this: the LEVEL OF THE QUEST IS AN APPROXIMATION OF DIFFICULTY, AND SHOULDN'T ALWAYS BE TAKEN AS AN ABSOLUTE DETERMINATION OF DIFFICULTY. Example: Von III is a level 10 in hard. It's also ten times more difficult than some of the level 13 Gianthold quests (level 14's on hard). I salute a bunch of level 10's for attempting Von III on hard. That would have been a major accomplishment. The same level 10 characters could have CRUSHED Cabal For One, Feast or Famine, Trial By Fire, and maybe other level 13 Gianthold quests. And if you complete level 13 quests, loot those chests and get those rewards, your character's power just improved greatly. Again, I salute you for attempting VON III on hard

So I am convinced the adventure and challenge we seek will be at the upper levels, where we currently are in The Core, level 10-13, with a lot of cool quests on the horizon which I have no idea of whether or not we will be able to complete them. That uncertainty creates the adventure.

There is no question that the Core, is the single most challenging Permadeath guild available, If I had not been tied up trying to help a friend build up his guild at the time of the Core's inception, I surely would have joined.

Chai
01-26-2010, 04:56 PM
It is a death no question.
What Im curious about is if your rules mean that someone who gets rezzed from this spell can help others (raise, heal, etc) or would they have to recall immediately.
ie. If you had others in your party also dead would the Death Pact cleric be permitted to raise them before the party recalls, or do they stay dead and the cleric gets a free pass?

It would depend on the guild rules in place.

The way the spell description is written, I think a rez would be allowed by the cleric for other dead players, as the cleric is alive and can take action according to the spell descriptor. It may be more of a true rez and not just a raise dead.

Some guilds have a rule that you can take no action after being rezed other than recalling from the quest. They may decide to apply this to death pact at their discretion. This would mean the other dead toons are dead. Reroll....

Duncani_Daho
01-26-2010, 05:50 PM
There is no question that the Core, is the single most challenging Permadeath guild available, If I had not been tied up trying to help a friend build up his guild at the time of the Core's inception, I surely would have joined.

Well that's a topic for another thread, but I only play in the Core because it's fun. I don't claim anything else for it. People should pursue their own fun-- if one's playstyle isn't fun anymore, why not shake it up a bit?

We should perhaps start a new thread with level 1-10 challenge quests-- quests people will find the most challenging, with a given ruleset, and a certain character level. Like The Swiped Signet on hard, with max level 3 characters. Devils Assault with max level 6's, etc.

What I do know is that TR, Deleras, STK, and the big, big xp quests aren't challenging unless you are very much under level and without a full party. Deleras can be run on hard with level 5's without shrining. TR on hard with level 4's, no shrining. Etc. etc.

It could be a DDO server-wide challenge board. I once posted such an idea on Mortal Voyage but it didn't go anywhere through nobodies fault.

KGWiking
01-30-2010, 01:09 PM
Good idea Duncan, but it won't likely happen. Couldn't even get people to do WW fresh off the boat due to each PD guild having their own deviations.

I think that slayer areas - like a scouting mission may offer a good challenge - try to get a group through - get all explorers and the "least kills wins". Then again, some guilds disallow running slayers or certainly discourage them as it is too easy.

I think that Artraxia, The Desert, GH, The Orchard and Meridia would offer a worthy challenge - of course some think that those areas are too easy.

KG

Knippers
02-06-2010, 01:14 AM
Spell description (from compendium, may be slightly different in game):

"The spell allows you to enter a pact with your diety that brings you back to life after you are slain. While under the effects of this spell, your constitution is decreased by two, and cannot be restored until you rest."

Seems like dead to me.

O.k., I would like to point out that the spell, when cast - say at the entrance during buffing - shows up where you other buffs post on the screen. You will see 3 icons, one is the reduced constitution icon (which by the way instantly reduces your constitution by 2), a "face" icon which tells you "you have recently entered a death pact" and a "parchment" icon that says you will automatically be raised when you die.

IF you are a cleric that has just cast this spell on yourself - you are not dead yet.

When you encounter a monster too big for you PD shoes, and you lose 11 more hit points than you currently have (don't forget you gave to up 2 for you favorite god), you will immediately get an raise dead pop-up window. If you accept, you've just raised yourself. Congratulations! Count THAT as a death. If you refuse your own offer - reroll.

kafrielveddicus
03-10-2010, 11:48 AM
O.k., I would like to point out that the spell, when cast - say at the entrance during buffing - shows up where you other buffs post on the screen. You will see 3 icons, one is the reduced constitution icon (which by the way instantly reduces your constitution by 2), a "face" icon which tells you "you have recently entered a death pact" and a "parchment" icon that says you will automatically be raised when you die.

IF you are a cleric that has just cast this spell on yourself - you are not dead yet.

When you encounter a monster too big for you PD shoes, and you lose 11 more hit points than you currently have (don't forget you gave to up 2 for you favorite god), you will immediately get an raise dead pop-up window. If you accept, you've just raised yourself. Congratulations! Count THAT as a death. If you refuse your own offer - reroll.

Thanks Knippers for your input, we will be counting Death Pact as a death!!!!

Duncani_Daho
07-06-2010, 12:03 AM
There is no question that the Core, is the single most challenging Permadeath guild available, If I had not been tied up trying to help a friend build up his guild at the time of the Core's inception, I surely would have joined.

And then he goes and calls me a toadie :P

/ribbit