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glassesjr
01-23-2010, 01:50 AM
I was wondering how viable this build will be when I get Drow unlocked. I plan on using Rapiers.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.16
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Ranger)
Hit Points: 298
Spell Points: 265
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 19
Will: 6

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 13 13 14
Dexterity 18 23 27
Constitution 14 14 14
Intelligence 10 10 10
Wisdom 11 11 11
Charisma 10 10 10

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 6 18.5 18.5
Bluff 0 0 0
Concentration 2 19 19
Diplomacy 0 0 0
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 0 0 0
Heal 0 0 0
Hide 8 30 30
Intimidate 0 0 0
Jump 5 23 23
Listen 0 0 2
Move Silently 8 30 30
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 0 0 0
Search 2 3 5
Spot 4 21 23
Swim 1 2 2
Tumble 5 9 9
Use Magic Device n/a n/a n/a

Level 1 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I


Level 2 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 5 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+3)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Sunder) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I


Level 6 (Ranger)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility
Spell (1): Camouflage
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Longstrider
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (1): Ram's Might
Spell (1): Resist Energy
Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
Spell (1): Tumble
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 7 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant


Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 9 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Wild Empathy
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I


Level 10 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Spell (2): Barkskin
Spell (2): Bear's Endurance
Spell (2): Cat's Grace
Spell (2): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (2): Hold Animal
Spell (2): Mass Camouflage
Spell (2): Owl's Wisdom
Spell (2): Protection From Energy
Spell (2): Snare
Spell (2): Spike Growth
Spell (2): Summon Nature's Ally II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I


Level 11 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense II


Level 12 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Construct
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III


Level 13 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Precise Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Precise Shot
Spell (3): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (3): Neutralize Poison
Spell (3): Remove Disease
Spell (3): Summon Nature's Ally III
Spell (3): Wild Instincts
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild II


Level 14 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 15 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage IV
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense III


Level 16 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Spell (4): Cure Serious Wounds
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Mass Longstrider
Spell (4): Summon Nature's Ally IV
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II


Level 17 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Lawful Outsider
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost III


Level 18 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost IV


Level 19 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance III


Level 20 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest III
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild III

Angelus_dead
01-23-2010, 01:56 AM
I was wondering how viable this build will be when I get Drow unlocked. I plan on using Rapiers.
Nobody but a Rogue should ever be finesse-based. Ok, maybe certain Monks as well.

ivar415
01-23-2010, 04:49 AM
Nobody but a Rogue should ever be finesse-based. Ok, maybe certain Monks as well.Meh, your opinion.
I find the ability to dodge everything with Evasion and high reflex coupled with the ability to actually hit something with Finesse quite alright.

As to the OP. Your 1st Feat just has to be Dodge. It´s vital for getting that important Tempest prestige early and it´s alright to have in the beginning. Also wait with the 2nd Fighter level AFTER you have Ranger level 6 to get those nifty automatic feats ASAP.

I´d drop that Wis to 10 and have 14 STR out of the box, you´ll not doing any finesse type fighting or even dual wielding for quite some time. And +1/+2 WIS items are easily acquired even for new players. BTW better forget about Power Attack for the early levels (>9) too! You won´t hit shiat with it on anyway, especially if you start dual wielding rapiers or somesuch nonsense(always remember: light weapon 4 tha offhand).


Now for a little trick: Use Fred in House Jorasco to swap out the Toughness you took on lvl3 with Mobility. Ideally just before you get your 3rd feat(Spring Attack; remember Tempest?) at character level 6.

You can use the free Feat exchange token, but I recommend just paying for it and using one of those abundant gold Syberis shards. So hit that quest to get the free feat exchange token only when you actually need it.
Throwing out Toughness will give you a free Enhancement redistribution too, so plan to spend some time on this levelup. :)

So now when you hit that 2nd Fighter level to get back Toughness or finally acquire Finesse, you turn into a veritable blender MUCH earlier than with your build.

ivar415
01-23-2010, 05:13 AM
Oops. Have to revise my advice a bit.
Was having my own build in mind (RangerX/Fighter1/Rogue1).
You´ll actually hit Ranger 6 much earlier and thus play around with the Finesse and 2 weapon fighting earlier too. Just make sure you plan the Enhancements right when you don´t swap out Toughness.

BTW, you can save Enhancement points and use them at a later level, to get that nice bonus right on level-up. Tough the progression requirements can make that tricky sometimes.

Stonen
01-23-2010, 05:56 AM
Try to get improved critical earlier, level 8 or 9. Its a great feat and you want it asap.

glassesjr
01-23-2010, 10:29 AM
Do you need a base Wis of 11 or 14 to get the spells? I'm guessing not, but I figured I'd ask. Whats the easiest way to get 14 Wis? I also am considering taking 1 LV of Rogue at that start. I think not having UMD might hurt me. I also gain Sneak Attack and some nice Rogue skills.

How does Sneak Attack work btw? Do you just need to hit someone from behind?

Nyvn
01-23-2010, 10:44 AM
You need base + tomes + gear/buffs to cast.

Demoyn
01-23-2010, 12:29 PM
Meh, your opinion.


Meh, backed up by mathematics (which doesn't have an opinion and is never wrong).

Samadhi
01-23-2010, 12:42 PM
Nobody ... should ever be finesse-based. ...

Edited for clarity :D

In all seriousness though OP - the only reason to go dex based is if you are going for astronomical AC. Your build has neither the Int (for CE) or the monk splash to attain this AC while TWF. Therefore, it is highly in your interest to go Str based instead of Dex (and it saves you a feat as well).

Samadhi
01-23-2010, 12:47 PM
Do you need a base Wis of 11 or 14 to get the spells? I'm guessing not, but I figured I'd ask. Whats the easiest way to get 14 Wis? I also am considering taking 1 LV of Rogue at that start. I think not having UMD might hurt me. I also gain Sneak Attack and some nice Rogue skills.

How does Sneak Attack work btw? Do you just need to hit someone from behind?

As long as your final Wis is 14 you are fine to cast spells, so assuming no gear slot issues, 14 is usually pretty attainable for any build just by wearing an item.

You get sneak attack damage any time that you do not have aggro (assuming the mob is vulnerable to SA) regardless of the direction they are facing. 1 rogue for UMD is definitely viable - if you are attempting to do more rogue skills than this with a 1 level splash I would rec. looking at an established build versus guessing your way through.

Mockduck
01-23-2010, 12:59 PM
Edited for clarity :D

In all seriousness though OP - the only reason to go dex based is if you are going for astronomical AC. Your build has neither the Int (for CE) or the monk splash to attain this AC while TWF. Therefore, it is highly in your interest to go Str based instead of Dex (and it saves you a feat as well).

I don't agree that it's the ONLY reason, although it is one of the main reasons why people do it. For example, I've made an unusual FvS/Rog build that needed dex for rogue skills and the like, and since creation stat points were taken up by other stats (wisdom, for example), it made sense to do "double duty" with dex by upping it for both Weapon Finesse and Rogue skills.

That said, OP: Why dex-based? What is the reason you are taking dex over strength?

glassesjr
01-23-2010, 11:18 PM
I don't agree that it's the ONLY reason, although it is one of the main reasons why people do it. For example, I've made an unusual FvS/Rog build that needed dex for rogue skills and the like, and since creation stat points were taken up by other stats (wisdom, for example), it made sense to do "double duty" with dex by upping it for both Weapon Finesse and Rogue skills.

That said, OP: Why dex-based? What is the reason you are taking dex over strength?

AC, Reflex, better to hit. Drow benefit from Dex way more than Str. I would feel gimped using a Str build on a Drow. I would be better off with a Str build on a Human or Dwarf for example. I can't do that cause I don't have 32 points and I don't want a gimped 28 build. Str only gives you slightly better damage and to hit. Dex gives the fore mentioned things, and with Power Attack I should do plenty of damage.

Kralgnax
01-25-2010, 09:34 AM
Meh, backed up by mathematics (which doesn't have an opinion and is never wrong).

Well, math doesn't have opinions, but the underlying assumptions for any model are what's of interest. You wouldn't have a link to the actual math and model assumptions, by any chance? I'm guessing it's based on the "Weapon finesse increases to-hit but not damage" premise, with the corollary argument that Dex brings about more defensive benefits (AC) than offensive, which is better served by STR builds, right?

Thanks!

markusthelion
01-25-2010, 03:19 PM
AC, Reflex, better to hit. Drow benefit from Dex way more than Str. I would feel gimped using a Str build on a Drow. I would be better off with a Str build on a Human or Dwarf for example. I can't do that cause I don't have 32 points and I don't want a gimped 28 build. Str only gives you slightly better damage and to hit. Dex gives the fore mentioned things, and with Power Attack I should do plenty of damage.

I wouldn't call a 28pt build, "Gimped", at all. Yes its not the most optimized, but gimped is extremely the wrong word. What makes you think this? I've got a 28pt strenght build, and it does just fine.

grodon9999
01-25-2010, 03:33 PM
I've got a 28pt strenght build, and it does just fine.

Strength builds are just plain easier to get by with. I've got a dex and a Strength ranger, Strength is just easier (don't get me started on my barb . . .).

In PnP D&D the DM could (should) customize the campaign to the characters. In DDO, you need to make your characters fit the campaign. Strength builds just work better in DDO as it's so hard to get a usable AC at higher levels that for the most part you're best off just giving up and going for as much DPS as possible.

EKKM
01-25-2010, 03:41 PM
Firstly, favoured enemies

Lvl 1 - evil outsiders - there are no evil outsiders to fight until level 9, when there are a few but not many (I dont count mephits). best served by taking another one at this level, I suggest undead because there are a lot of them from the start to the end of the game.

Lvl 7 Giant - good - note that this also covers ogres and trolls. Maybe swap this for elementals or contructs after gianthold

Lvl 12 construct - sort of meh on this one, would take evil outsider here as you start ti see a lot more

Lvl 17 Lawful outsider - you have evil outsider so this really only covers lawful good/neutral outsiders, not a lot of those to fight. Elementals or constructs would fit here.

Next:

Well, math doesn't have opinions, but the underlying assumptions for any model are what's of interest. You wouldn't have a link to the actual math and model assumptions, by any chance? I'm guessing it's based on the "Weapon finesse increases to-hit but not damage" premise, with the corollary argument that Dex brings about more defensive benefits (AC) than offensive, which is better served by STR builds, right?

Thanks!

In order to get Ac high enough to be worth dumping strength you need either combat expertise (+5) and/or monk levels (preferably both on a ranger). Combat expertise requires a 13 INT to take and a feat on feat starved class. Your argument about Ac and reflex saves makes sense in PnP, but not in DDO. Mobs to-hit are so high that unless you dedicate a lot to Ac it will not be very effective past level 12. Also - what good is Ac if he can't get aggro?

I'll give you saves but adding reflex save to a elf ranger is likely overkill or of little benefit compared to a higher str.

glassesjr
01-25-2010, 06:24 PM
After doing some thinking I'm going to make a Str based build. I might go Dex on another play through when I get Monk though. Heres mine to LV 10:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.16
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 10 True Neutral Drow Male
(1 Fighter \ 1 Rogue \ 8 Ranger)
Hit Points: 162
Spell Points: 95
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 11
Will: 2

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 10)
Strength 17 19
Dexterity 13 16
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 10 10
Charisma 10 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 10)
Balance 5 16
Bluff 0 0
Concentration 2 2
Diplomacy 0 0
Disable Device 4 4
Haggle 0 0
Heal 0 0
Hide 1 3
Intimidate 4 11
Jump 7 8
Listen 0 2
Move Silently 1 3
Open Lock 5 7
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 2
Spot 4 6
Swim 3 4
Tumble 5 7
Use Magic Device 4 13

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 5 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Sunder) I


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 7 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I


Level 8 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I


Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II


Level 10 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild II

Hadrian
01-26-2010, 03:20 AM
Going weapon finesse on your first melee is probably a bad idea. They are fun to play and quite effective but are less forgiving of a character that is not well equipped.

With a strength build you get the benefits of your extra strength no matter what you're using for gear. With a finesse build, your saves and AC need to reach certain levels before they really can make an argument for being worthy of a trade-off with strength. Those levels require gathering some specific items, and it can take quite a while without the resources of some established characters to fund you.

Don't let the forum troll brigade turn you off of to the idea, though. Despite what they zealously insist, dex-based builds can pull their weight if designed well. You wouldn't neglect strength completely because it's still your damage stat.

The difference in damage via strength is minimal. The real gap comes from weapon choices. The khopesh is the ideal one-handed weapon assuming 0% fortification, but the most damaging weapon that weapon finesse works with is the rapier. Expect to do about 15% less damage as a weapon finesse build. As fortification on the target goes up, the gap decreases a bit.

Angelus_dead
01-26-2010, 04:09 AM
with Power Attack I should do plenty of damage.
That is incorrect. Every melee character will have Power Attack as part of their baseline damage. That's not something that counts as an advantage for your character.


Well, math doesn't have opinions, but the underlying assumptions for any model are what's of interest. You wouldn't have a link to the actual math and model assumptions, by any chance?
Seriously, the model assumption is that the player wants a character that will be effective in DDO. Weapon finesse on a non-rogue/non-monk does not contribute to that goal: it leads to a character who can hit his enemies, but why bother?

Hadrian
01-26-2010, 01:49 PM
There is no doubt that the khopesh's critical hit profile increases the difference to about a 15% gap in damage assuming about 8-10 strength more on the strength-based build.

Trash still dies quickly because it's trash. High end weapons like lightning 2 and radiance 2 can allow you to kill trash so quickly that you can't tell if someone is strength or dexterity based.

(Radiance is worth making on this build assuming the rogue splash and Tharne's Goggles because your sneak attack damage is higher than the lightning bolt damage averages out across all swings. It's also much more reliable on targets that die too quickly to expect a bolt every time.)

Most huge HP bosses have some level of fortification to lower the gap some.

I wouldn't suggest making a weapon finesse build that doesn't put 6 points into strength to buy up all of the 1:1 attribute purchases.