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Tin_Dragon
01-17-2010, 11:33 PM
Ok, so since Recovering the lost scrolls quest, from Mr Goodblade, I had an issue with puzzles.

Small ones I can do, the Von 5, Shroud pt 3, and Monastary, and others, just stupid.

The thing, this game is fantasy, I r not dum. but i aint no jeenis eider.

Really, there are people who not only have problems with puzzles, they cant, dont, wont try to use a solver either. This means we have to drag em through content, or fail because they randomly screw up.


Instead of 'puzzles' why not Stat runes, similar to those we find in other places, keyed to a stat, and on a longer usage time, like a lever, you can be interrupted while working it, but say if the base time is 10 seconds, you add/subtract 1 second for every 2 pts (or +/- mod) above/below the Base score of that rune. With a minimum requirement for Raids, or complex puzzles.

So you in Von 5, instead of just any old person looking at a puzzle map they googled, some character with a high Int has to press a series of stat runes with a base 20 second timer, with a min req 18 Int (on normal) - say 1 rune for each of the force doors currently there. and of course, the WF drones, still spawn.

This gets away from the skill of googleFu and into your characters more, and, no more having 1 person stand there doing puzzle and turning to smite, finger, slay, etc... the nearly worthless wf. Since every time they stop working the rune, they have to start over.

So in cases like this, we get CLOSER to multiple DnD qualities, character vs player skills, AND TEAM WORK!!

Oh my.


Take this to the Reaver.

forget your solver, just thow 3 stat runes in there, Int, Wis, Chr. All need to be completed in the above method, and within time frame already used, AND they have to be done within a couple seconds of each other!! so if 1 person gets interrupted, all 3 have to restart, so the TEAMWORK comes into play.


Monastery.... Shroud, generic runes, or random runes with NO minimum stat req, or a moderate one, so it just takes them a little longer do to the time modified by the stat mod.

You could even randomize what STAT rune people end up in, similar to how we port there now, and then 8 int fighters have to get a rogue, caster to get them out of the int run room, and a proper stat character needs to get in there.


I dunno, I am just tired of the puzzles that can be googled by those of us who CAN duel screen/window solvers carrying those who can't, and don't want to solve puzzles through these quests/raids.

Its VERY BAD DMing to force PLAYER knowledge over Character knowledge, always has been, Meta gaming = bad.

HOLY COW, I just realized you Turbine got it pretty close to this at least once!! Fleshmakers Orchard quest, the air ele room at the end, now just do there "raid" puzzles like that, with more stat keyed runes, and you got it. Guarding the "smarties" from the mobs while they work....

And there is ALWAYS room to UMD them too!!!!

(Bring on the artificer!)

MissErres
01-17-2010, 11:45 PM
Ok, I get that not everyone is into puzzles, but seriously, you just want to replace them with runes??

There's not a puzzle in the game that can't be solved quite easily w/o a solver once you understand the mechanics of it. And there are a multitude of sources for solvers if you don't want to delve into the challenge of one.

If you don't want to just stand around while someone else does the puzzle, ask them to walk you thru it, pay attention and maybe, oh I dunno... learn something?

/not signed

BurningDownTheHouse
01-17-2010, 11:52 PM
This might be an interesting idea for new content, I'm personally against revising old content to this for two reasons:

1. Not worth the dev time.
2. Dumbing down old content doesn't contribute to the games health. And yes, it IS dumbing down. Face it, like them (I don't), hate them (I do), puzzles are one of the best ways to allow players to manifest their skills in the MMO inviroment. Finishing an Abbot raid feels like much more of an accomplishment than finishing a ToD...
Look around, too many complaints about "easy buttons" already.

Jay203
01-17-2010, 11:57 PM
if you thought VoN 5 was bad...
wait till you play with Ghost of a Chance :D:D:D:D

Tin_Dragon
01-18-2010, 12:01 AM
Ok, I get that not everyone is into puzzles, but seriously, you just want to replace them with runes??

There's not a puzzle in the game that can't be solved quite easily w/o a solver once you understand the mechanics of it. And there are a multitude of sources for solvers if you don't want to delve into the challenge of one.

If you don't want to just stand around while someone else does the puzzle, ask them to walk you thru it, pay attention and maybe, oh I dunno... learn something?

/not signed

I understand that, and I use solvers much of the time, I get through quests, I learn ways to do them.

I am TIRED of having people REFUSE to do the same, even though I understand why. To this day if I dont specifically say in my LFM for shrouds to KNOW YOUR PUZZLE, and sometimes even then, get people who just get the door opened and RUN out.

DDO puzzles have 0 to do with anything DnD the way they are currently implemented, any class, without any thought to character skill can do any puzzle just as well as the next person.

That is Meta Gaming. That is poor DMing.

BurningDownTheHouse
01-18-2010, 12:04 AM
That is Meta Gaming. That is poor DMing.

True, but it's a good thing for an MMO, especially an MMORPG.
Like it or not MMOs are all about metagaming.

Tin_Dragon
01-18-2010, 12:05 AM
This might be an interesting idea for new content, I'm personally against revising old content to this for two reasons:

1. Not worth the dev time.
2. Dumbing down old content doesn't contribute to the games health. And yes, it IS dumbing down. Face it, like them (I don't), hate them (I do), puzzles are one of the best ways to allow players to manifest their skills in the MMO inviroment. Finishing an Abbot raid feels like much more of an accomplishment than finishing a ToD...
Look around, too many complaints about "easy buttons" already.

I do NOT want to see DDO dumbed down either, you know that. Like I said, if you look at how Fleshmakers is, that would be a better system than the Von 5 puzzle, especially if one or 2 of those runes was geared to Int/Wis.

Sure, dont spend time on redoing OLD content, I am not a fan of that at all. I was using the old puzzles, as a comparison point of what might have been...

Again, Character stat/skills/feats VS meta gamed
AND
more teamwork enviornments.

I think that would NOT dumb down the game, but make better players of those who want to be, and weed out the n00bs/pileons/pikers even more.

MissErres
01-18-2010, 12:08 AM
I am TIRED of having people REFUSE to do the same, even though I understand why. To this day if I dont specifically say in my LFM for shrouds to KNOW YOUR PUZZLE, and sometimes even then, get people who just get the door opened and RUN out.

Then the puzzles are not the problem, the people you are grouping with are. I don't expect everyone in any of my Shroud groups know how to do their puzzles, and it has never been an issue. As long as there's someone along who can open a lock it's all good. Hell, have even been in a few w/o a lock picker and still get them done just by giving directions. And if you're grouping with people who are just flat out ignoring puzzles all together, then again... I'd say it's the players, not the puzzles.

BurningDownTheHouse
01-18-2010, 12:19 AM
I do NOT want to see DDO dumbed down either, you know that. Like I said, if you look at how Fleshmakers is, that would be a better system than the Von 5 puzzle, especially if one or 2 of those runes was geared to Int/Wis.

Sure, dont spend time on redoing OLD content, I am not a fan of that at all. I was using the old puzzles, as a comparison point of what might have been...

Again, Character stat/skills/feats VS meta gamed
AND
more teamwork enviornments.

I think that would NOT dumb down the game, but make better players of those who want to be, and weed out the n00bs/pileons/pikers even more.

As I've said, I'm not against the idea for new content.
You probably still wouldn't want to get rid of the puzzles completely, some people really do like them.
Maybe use them as an alternative to a hard fight, or a complicated team work mechanic. :D

Lithic
01-18-2010, 12:34 AM
if you thought VoN 5 was bad...
wait till you play with Ghost of a Chance :D:D:D:D

Ghost of a chance looks complicated due to the 3-D nature and sheer length of the puzzle, but it is actually very simple. The lack of splitters, and the ability to see which runes are trapped with any rogue, makes this puzzle barely more complicated than the noob warehouse quest.

Jay203
01-18-2010, 12:37 AM
Ghost of a chance looks complicated due to the 3-D nature and sheer length of the puzzle, but it is actually very simple. The lack of splitters, and the ability to see which runes are trapped with any rogue, makes this puzzle barely more complicated than the noob warehouse quest.

shhhhhh
yell out spoiler alert next time! :(

MissErres
01-18-2010, 12:38 AM
shhhhhh
yell out spoiler alert next time! :(

I probably shouldn't mention then that the trapped tiles are static... so one really doesn't even need a rogue after doing it once or twice. :p

Jay203
01-18-2010, 12:39 AM
I probably shouldn't mention then that the trapped tiles are static... so one really doesn't even need a rogue after doing it once or twice. :p

>___<
~locks Erres in the ancient cage~

MissErres
01-18-2010, 12:46 AM
>___<
~locks Erres in the ancient cage~

With handcuffs on?? :eek::p:rolleyes:

Jay203
01-18-2010, 12:50 AM
With handcuffs on?? :eek::p:rolleyes:

i guess you like it "secure":rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

MissErres
01-18-2010, 12:52 AM
i guess you like it "secure":rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Hehehe... thought the other was Sig worthy Jay. Thx bunches!

kaidendager
01-18-2010, 12:59 AM
If you don't like the meta-gaming aspect I would reccomend trying an RP group. I enjoy the puzzles present in DDO. When I tried WoW out I couldn't stand the aspect of simply watching the game be played for me. I (and I'd wager a large population of the DDO community) prefer a game where there is a cooperative aspect of the player behind the keyboard and the character solving the game world symbiotically.

I don't mean to sound like a troll and I hope you don't read this as any method but helpful, you may be more akin to the RP crowd; it's worth a shot.

If you are finding the puzzles too challenging and cannot alt+tab or dual screen, there are many practice tools available on the forums. Additionally, soloing a quest will allow you ample time to read the given clues and figure out the puzzles at your own pace.

Edit: here (http://www.axiomfiles.com/Files/320262/monastery.html) is an excellent solver/practice tool for the Monastery puzzle systems.

And here (http://globalsoftware-inc.com/harncw/Reaver%20Trainer%20DDO/Reaver%20Trainer%20DDO.html) is the link I used to practice the reaver/mastermind puzzle.

Jay203
01-18-2010, 01:08 AM
Hehehe... thought the other was Sig worthy Jay. Thx bunches!

lol, anytime
i guess :confused::confused::confused:

Bunker
01-18-2010, 01:19 AM
If anything, we need more quests with a puzzle here and there.

One thing that makes a good game like DDO is not being all the same. Having puzzles and riddles every so often keeps the game fresh and fun. I personally enjoy having alternative ways to complete a quest then always having to beat down another monster at the end.

What is also great about DDO is that this is a team game. If puzzles aren't your thing, not big deal there. I'm sure one of the other 5, or other 11 players in your group can help.

Again, if a dev is scrolling thru reading the suggestion box, add more puzzles. Active puzzles like the Abbot, and thinking puzzles like Reaver.

chaos_master
01-18-2010, 01:36 AM
Let's look at this from a PnP perspective:

Puzzle: A Shroud part 3 puzzle in a random dungeon
DM: Smartie (wizard) and WiseGuy (monk) can start working on the puzzle. Smash (fighter) and Bash (barbarian), you guys keep quiet and go get yourselves a juice or a beer, because your characters are too stupid to solve it.

Really?

I, for one, love puzzles as it let's you do more than expand the limits of your click speed and twitch skills. It actually let's YOU as the man/woman behind the character learn something and apply your knowledge in the game. I always love it when we have someone who can do the Reaver's puzzle without a solver.

Rasczak
01-18-2010, 02:02 AM
I spot someone who just wants a slog fest with monsters.

Luckily DDO is not only about that :D

stromburg
01-18-2010, 02:14 AM
Personally I enjoy the puzzles. Even in pen and paper when I'm DMing I sometimes throw a puzzle at the party so I have time to enjoy a smoke while I plot how to get them back on track with the main quest.

Maldavenous
01-18-2010, 02:30 AM
The OP sounds a lot like someone I know. They think that personal skill/knowledge should not come into play in RP (mostly for PnP in his case).

What makes DDO more interesting than other MMOs is that it has things like puzzles.

Personally I like puzzles as long as they do not occur at the same time as combat. For instance I think the puzzle at the end of Monastery is fairly bad, but at least if you drag the boss away you can use the puzzle to kill him and it's fairly simple to solve. If you couldn't drag him away trying to solve that puzzle while fighting him would simply be annoying.

Also if a puzzle is larger than a certain size it should be optional and not required. Like the puzzle in Ghost of a Chance. There's really little to no reason to solve that puzzle, which is good because without a write up it takes at least 30 minutes (I've never tried to look for a write up but I'm sure there's one out there).

Puzzles in the Shroud work well because there's an extra reward for finishing them (2 more chests) but you can simply break the crystals and not bother with the chests. Also you have the option of letting a player into the puzzle rooms to solve the puzzles for you (which is a much better option than breaking the crystals).

VoN 5 mostly breaks my rule on No Combat During Puzzles but it's not too bad seeing it gives the players standing around waiting for it to be solved something to do. The major issue with this puzzle is actually how difficult it is to solve, there are a lot of paths that will look right but be wrong later on and require major reworking of your tile facings.

The maze puzzle in Crucible is somewhat difficult but the good part is with a full group you can just leave people on valves and run around until you get everything you need. I really like this one myself but don't have it memorized, never had much of an issue getting it solved.

Prove Your Worth has a fairly difficult puzzle to decipher. However the quest really doesn't have much combat to worry about.

Over all I appreciate all the experiences I listed above, if I said I liked them or not, more than I would having a simple stat rune to click on.

Worse than that stat runes require certain character builds and start to force grouping unless they're painfully simple to complete. They'd actually make it impossible to solo many quests and would require groups to look for players with certain ability scores.

Anderei
01-18-2010, 02:34 AM
Puzzles are the things I like on DDO, and why I prefer it over other MMOG, really back when trying it on F2P and on Korthos came upon the puzzle with the ice-spider, I thought, wow, thats a cool game. I still *love* puzzle up today. Most of the time I like them more when not doing em under pressure, like in the monestary. Believe it or not, when you want to go to the tormented I actually like it! (given a blade barrier is coming with the group, without its even for me a little too distrubing, to run 5 rats or so through the final maze). Same with that puzzle in three-barrel-cove, I actually soloed it a few times to get a hang on these cubes!

If its too tough for you, seek a MMOG for dummies :-) like no I wont mention WoW ;-)