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Valiance
01-11-2010, 10:38 PM
The xp required for the first but even moreso the 2nd true reincarnate needs to be toned down considerably.

There is always a balance between grind and reward. Get that balance right and you can keep people hooked on a game for a long, long time. The Shroud is a perfect example of a part of the game that kept people going for a long, long time doing the same thing because the reward was balanced correctly.

I had decided to take one of my characters and double reincarnate him to make a very capable battlemage. I am only level 14 of the first reincarnate and never have I been more bored with this game. Now I read that the final xp required on the 2nd reincarnate is like 9 million? Ridiculous.

The XP required should be like 3 mill on first one and maybe 4.5 mill on second reincarnate. This is still the total xp required to level almost 4 regular characters. During the entire time you are 1) not spending time with all of your high level friends and 2) not accumulating raid loot that would make your character as powerful if not more powerful than the meager reward for reincarnating.

Anyways I needed to state my piece. Everytime I log onto my reincarnate I end up playing Dragon Age Origins.

V

bobbryan2
01-11-2010, 10:44 PM
I really really enjoyed the first reincarnation. By the time I capped, I had 2500ish favor, and just had a very pleasant 3 weeks capping, hitting every single raid and quest in the game.

However... I think the xp required for the 2nd is right out. There's not enough xp in the end game to support it.

Eladrin
01-11-2010, 10:49 PM
The XP required should be like 3 mill on first one and maybe 4.5 mill on second reincarnate.
The XP required is 3,139,250 on the first one, and 4,378,500 on the second.

rest
01-11-2010, 10:55 PM
The XP required is 3,139,250 on the first one, and 4,378,500 on the second.

lol pwnt.

I also head the 9 million figure.. for BOTH reincarnates. ;)

QuantumFX
01-11-2010, 11:18 PM
I really really enjoyed the first reincarnation. By the time I capped, I had 2500ish favor, and just had a very pleasant 3 weeks capping, hitting every single raid and quest in the game.

However... I think the xp required for the 2nd is right out. There's not enough xp in the end game to support it.

I have yet to do a 36pt reincarnation but I have to say that my experience with the 34pt reincarnation is very similar to what Bobbryan is describing.

I think most of the people who get “burnt out” on the reincarnation process are trying to sprint to the level cap. If you need to think of it as a race then think of it as a marathon, not a 100 meter dash and plan accordingly. For a reincarnation I highly recommend not XP ransacking quests. Instead make it a favor hunt, drag some newbies through a quest you can solo, and go visit some of the wilderness zones. Do something other than banging your head on a wall!

This discussion also has the same vibe as the old “1750 is too much favor” discussions. More quests are coming. When this happens you’ll have more places to visit than Korthos, Waterworks, STK, Tangleroot, Delaras, Stormcleave, Gianthold, Vale and Shavarath.

BLAKROC
01-11-2010, 11:22 PM
lol pwnt.

I also head the 9 million figure.. for BOTH reincarnates. ;)

i look at is as 1st cap 1.9 mill. 2nd 3.1 mil 3rd 4.4 mill =9.4 mill so 9 mill is not far off the mark. ( still ridiculous)

Valiance
01-11-2010, 11:30 PM
The XP required is 3,139,250 on the first one, and 4,378,500 on the second.


Definitely pwned by Eladrin on that one. I had seriously miss read the other thread about xp.

Seriously though even though the reality is close to my original suggestion I still feel it is a little high. When I first read about reincarnates I figured it would be 5% increase each time. Seriously.

It just is so disheartening when you look down and you have 1.9mill xp and you know you would be capped on a regular character and you're not even halfway there.

Brutal. A slight tone down would make a ton of sense in my opinion. I know it would certainly get more people to reincarnate which has to have a hugely positive effect on the longevity of the game.

Thanks for the info E.

V

bobbryan2
01-11-2010, 11:37 PM
My actual suggestions would be closer to 2.7 mil for 1st, 3.6 mil for the 2nd.

And every additional TR would be 2.7.

ripperj
01-12-2010, 12:01 AM
My actual suggestions would be closer to 2.7 mil for 1st, 3.6 mil for the 2nd.

And every additional TR would be 2.7.

i think you hit it on the nail there

Valiance
01-12-2010, 12:16 AM
My actual suggestions would be closer to 2.7 mil for 1st, 3.6 mil for the 2nd.

And every additional TR would be 2.7.

/signed

That would at least let me see the light at the end of the tunnel.

V

jkm
01-12-2010, 12:21 AM
i tihnk the biggest problem is that the biggest XP chunks in the game are raids. the odds of getting 12 level appropriate characters to get those XP chunks is slim outside of the dragon (and even then, its either wait 30+ minutes or sit around and wait for one to form).

dragonofsteel
01-12-2010, 01:45 AM
The xp needs to be lowered i do agree with that, 2.7xp 3.6 then 2.7xp would be improvement. Way to much of grind could never see doing all classes one toon with the xp at 4.378 as is now. Though if made 2.7 could see people going for it.

vVAnjilaVv
01-12-2010, 06:00 AM
What I am wondering about all these people claiming that the 2nd TR's XP needed is to high, is are they capping out slayers, doing strategic things like using thier small ebberon shards they get and using them at key points?

I'm actually looking forward to the fact that instead of having to do so many quests for just favor that I will actually be getting xp from them as well.

Pyromaniac
01-12-2010, 06:05 AM
The benefits are too strong from the grind of reincarnation to make it too easy. Not signed, time to buy some XP pots...

Personally I think reincarnating just makes it clear the end game in DDO is tremendously lacking and what there is (Epic) isn't getting played hardly at all due to design flaws.

uhgungawa
01-12-2010, 06:13 AM
not to worry, next month you'll be able to by a completionest toon for the low low price of 25,000 TP's :D

Clay
01-12-2010, 06:17 AM
you know what....

Eladrin an co. should just give us all the dev God mode. Instant whatclass we want with whateverskills we want, wherever we want. Yes. That is such a good way to keep things interesting and fun.

Capping a TR is a matter of a week of hardcore leveling. A 2xTR is maybe 2 weeks. So if you don't play it hardcore, maybe twice that time.

To the OP. There is a very simple solution to the XP grind. Don't make TR characters. You want all the benefits without paying for it--don't like the investment of time? Don't choose that path. Or you can plan your leveling up process a bit better and find that it is possible to cap a TR without even hitting Amrath quests.

platonicx
01-12-2010, 06:32 AM
So basically you want TR to be an easy accomplishment for everyone... i see that makes sense.

gwlech
01-12-2010, 06:58 AM
There is plenty of exp to cap a second reinc. Just run more content, do slayers, chapter farm certain quest chains. Reincarnation should not have an easy button imo, it's something that you have to work for and accomplish.

It's easy enough on a regular toon to hit cap just by running a small handful of quests, most of which can easily be soloed. Is requiring a seasoned "veteran" toon to have more game experience too much to ask?

Marcus-Hawkeye
01-12-2010, 07:26 AM
I'm a father of a 7mo old baby girl. I don't get a lot of time to play. I haven't done a TR yet. But I decided to do a test. Before TR came out I started a paladin and I ran every single quest on korthos, normal hard elite. I completed the explorer quests and moved to the harbour. I did each quest in the harbour normal hard and elite. I didn't level right away, I got close to capping the xp and then leveled when I had to. I started groups without anyone higher than myself. I did cerulian hills (and three barrel cove) and completed it all. I did searing heights and marketplace quests N H E. Then I moved to completing any level 4 quests that I hadn't done already. Then moved on to level 5... I am now level 10, almost 11 and I haven't completed level 5 quests. Not to mention I've not even done sorrowdusk isle yet...

There is insane amounts of XP in this game. As a VIP I know I will not have a problem leveling my TR when I do it.
Although, you F2P people are probably gonna dislike it a lot. But that's the price you pay (or don't pay) for playing for free, so you can't really complain...

And for the record, the explorer areas have the most amount of XP anywhere. I was doing the vale with a group last night and was in there for 40 minutes with my 14 bard and made 16k xp. I didn't even break 200 kills on either side, found 8 of 21 explores and killed 4 rares. Was a really good run.

Battleworm
01-12-2010, 07:31 AM
The XP required is 3,139,250 on the first one, and 4,378,500 on the second.


Why do all the new quests have garbage xp?

xTethx
01-12-2010, 07:36 AM
/Not signed

Like I've said before the XP is there and you want an easy way out? No way, learn to power lvl or dont do reincarnate its thats simple.

Draccus
01-12-2010, 07:39 AM
I've almost finished my first TR. It has been a joy. I think I enjoyed TR'ing from 1 to 20 more than I enjoyed my first trip from 1 to 20. Reliving all those quests on my main, favorite character has been great.

I've been asked quite a bit if I'm going to do a second TR. My response is absolutely NOT. If the XP penalty was the same for the second as the first, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But the penalty for the second is just too high to make it enjoyable.

Why even make it harder than the first TR? Since the 3rd TR is the same XP as the second, it's not like there's some sort of balance issue. Make all TR's the same XP as the first and you'll have a LOT more people TR'ing a second time.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-12-2010, 07:40 AM
I hate grinds. When TR was all we had to fix characters I agreed with you. But with LR+3 & GR+3 soon to be available TR becomes only a voluntary choice if you wish to make a minor improvement in your char. Would I mind if it was no extra xp on the first TR and 50% extra on the second? Nope, that would be nice. In fact Turbine would make more money that way. But is it a big deal? Naw. The first TR anyway isn't THAT bad, and at least they were wise enough to put most of the grind at higher levels when the chars are fun to play.

Draccus
01-12-2010, 07:44 AM
The first TR anyway isn't THAT bad, and at least they were wise enough to put most of the grind at higher levels when the chars are fun to play.

Very true. I basically stopped "grinding" at level 16. I ran what I wanted to run when I wanted to run it and didn't pay any attention to level or XP or being powerleveled or over-level penalties, etc. I started playing like I would have been playing had I not TR'd.

The XP keeps coming in and I'll cap without even realizing it in a week or so.

Crann
01-12-2010, 07:50 AM
Going back through previous DDO Casts, on one of the November shows, I believe it was a Dev that stated there were 1.7 million xp just in Wilderness areas, without ever setting foot in a dungeon. There was also enough xp to cap a character by doing each quest on normal. I think people who are having trouble with the increased xp requirements need to re-evaluate the purpose of True Reincarnation.

Battleworm
01-12-2010, 07:53 AM
Going back through previous DDO Casts, on one of the November shows, I believe it was a Dev that stated there were 1.7 million xp just in Wilderness areas, without ever setting foot in a dungeon. There was also enough xp to cap a character by doing each quest on normal. I think people who are having trouble with the increased xp requirements need to re-evaluate the purpose of True Reincarnation.


I love people saying stuff like this because i know they don't grasp how long it is to cap slayers in wilderness area...Do you have any idea of how long it takes to get 5000 shavarath and lamannians in meridia?

Lorien_the_First_One
01-12-2010, 07:56 AM
I love people saying stuff like this because i know they don't grasp how long it is to cap slayers in wilderness area...Do you have any idea of how long it takes to get 5000 shavarath and lamannians in meridia?

I hate slayers, I find them boring. However, I do know several people that do cap them out and man they level quickly.

Hendrik
01-12-2010, 08:02 AM
Why do all the new quests have garbage xp?

Extremely short and extremely easy would be my guess.

;)

zealous
01-12-2010, 08:03 AM
you know what....

Eladrin an co. should just give us all the dev God mode. Instant whatclass we want with whateverskills we want, wherever we want. Yes. That is such a good way to keep things interesting and fun.

Capping a TR is a matter of a week of hardcore leveling. A 2xTR is maybe 2 weeks. So if you don't play it hardcore, maybe twice that time.

To the OP. There is a very simple solution to the XP grind. Don't make TR characters. You want all the benefits without paying for it--don't like the investment of time? Don't choose that path. Or you can plan your leveling up process a bit better and find that it is possible to cap a TR without even hitting Amrath quests.
Well I think it would actually be possible to cap a 2xTR in a day, would need 4 really hardcore buddies and some cheesy tactics though.

Josh
01-12-2010, 08:10 AM
Well I think it would actually be possible to cap a 2xTR in a day, would need 4 really hardcore buddies and some cheesy tactics though.

Maths?

Ironforge_Clan
01-12-2010, 08:15 AM
you know what....

Eladrin an co. should just give us all the dev God mode. Instant whatclass we want with whateverskills we want, wherever we want. Yes. That is such a good way to keep things interesting and fun.

Capping a TR is a matter of a week of hardcore leveling. A 2xTR is maybe 2 weeks. So if you don't play it hardcore, maybe twice that time.

To the OP. There is a very simple solution to the XP grind. Don't make TR characters. You want all the benefits without paying for it--don't like the investment of time? Don't choose that path. Or you can plan your leveling up process a bit better and find that it is possible to cap a TR without even hitting Amrath quests.

I disagree with ya on this one Clay. I'm not hardcore by any stretch of the imagination but 2 weeks? I has taken a bit longer for me but if you don't have a life outside of DDO then it might be possible.

Just so were clear, my comment isn't a slap against you or whether you have a life outside this game. I just don't think your experiences are the norm.


Why do all the new quests have garbage xp?

This is by design and we have been told this. It is to make the journey from 16 to 20 last longer than a few days.

Ironforge_Clan
01-12-2010, 08:16 AM
I hate slayers, I find them boring. However, I do know several people that do cap them out and man they level quickly.

I agree...extremely boring but both a great time sink when nothing is going on and do help with the accumulation of xp.

Zenako
01-12-2010, 08:28 AM
As many have pointed out, there IS plenty of EXP available in the course of running the game to support TR, 2XTR and more. That some of it might involve running quests not on the short list is not the developers problem. It is a problem for someone removing a chunk of the game from consideration.

Explorer areas are a part of the game and do generate large amounts of experience. If your sole goal of a TR is to rush to CAP and over and again, you are probably no more bored than you would be doing that same thing with any character. Just enjoy the ride and stuff.

The EXP for the new quests is really in line with the challenges within. They are mostly short and "easy" and as such reflect that with the size of the EXP. I would also recommend someone worried about enough EXP for TR'ing to seriously investigate the optional awards on quests. Many of them are quite sizeable and worth the effort even on a pure EXP/Min basis. They often can be worth more than 50% of the quest EXP itself. (last night in a group doing Madstone, and got ~4500 on the optionals and a tick under 9000 for the quest (no first time bonus on that character left). Those optionals did not add a lot of time.

Thucydides04
01-12-2010, 08:44 AM
Just my $.02, I think some of the upper level quests need to have the amount of xp rewarded for completing revisited. I find it hard to believe that I can net as much xp from a xorian run as I can from devils or PoP. I mean shouldn't level 16 quests give level 16 type xp and level 8 quests level 8 xp. (P.S. Please do not nerf the xp in Xorian or any other quests.)

Battleworm
01-12-2010, 08:50 AM
Just my $.02, I think some of the upper level quests need to have the amount of xp rewarded for completing revisited. I find it hard to believe that I can net as much xp from a xorian run as I can from devils or PoP. I mean shouldn't level 16 quests give level 16 type xp and level 8 quests level 8 xp. (P.S. Please do not nerf the xp in Xorian or any other quests.)



Yup.I said in another thread that it's ******** a lvl 8 quest (shadow crypt) is the best xp in the whole game.

Zenako
01-12-2010, 09:02 AM
Rants on quest EXP should be based on facts...

Here is the BASE Normal Setting EXP for quests, sorted by most to least. (Based on recent settings)


Level Base XP Name
11 12100 Twilight Forge
17 11540 The Thirteen Eclipse: The Shroud
10 11500 The Vault of the Night (VON 5)
9 9820 The Shadow Crypt
16 9300 The Coalescence Chamber
17 9252 Stealer of Souls
19 9172 A New Invasion
19 9060 Genesis Point
17 8835 Enter the Kobold
15 8740 Litany of the Dead
16 8433 Rainbow in the Dark
17 8420 Monastery of the Scorpion
14 8380 The Crucible
18 8200 A Vision of Destruction
18 8200 Hound of Xoriat
7 7780 The Pit
16 7433 Ritual Sacrifice
11 7300 Tomb of the Tormented
9 7199 The Jungle of Khyber (VON 3b)
19 7156 Sins of Attrition
16 7099 Running with the Devils
14 6969 Madstone Crator
12 6819 The Cursed Crypt
16 6766 Let Sleeping Dust Lie
14 6540 The Reavers Fate
10 6484 Tempest's Spine
14 6448 Ghosts of Perdition
12 6399 Against the Demon Queen
12 6399 The Chamber of Raiyum
14 6356 Gianthold Tor
17 6340 Prey on the Hunter
14 5896 Inferno of the Damned
12 5699 A Relic of a Sovereign Past
10 5698 Escort the Expedition
14 5344 Desecrated Temple of Vol
14 5344 Flesh Maker's Laboratory
11 5300 An Offering of Blood
11 5300 The Enemy Within
6 5200 The Bloody Crypt
12 5140 Zawabi's Revenge
19 5140 Bastion of Power
13 5086 A Cry for Help
11 4900 Tomb of the Blighted
15 4900 Ascension Chamber
20 4798 The Dreaming Dark
13 4795 Feast or Famine
11 4660 Tomb of the Forbidden
8 4622 Thrall of the Necromancer (DT 4)
7 4558 The Missing Party (DT 2)
8 4520 The Xorian Cipher
12 4468 The Chains of Flame
18 4312 In The Demon's Den
19 4300 Eye of the Titan
12 4299 Invaders!
14 4246 The Prison of the Planes
13 4206 Trial by Fire
8 4180 Tomb of the Shadow King
11 4180 Dreams of Insanity
11 4180 Tomb of the Unhallowed
18 4150 I Dream of Jeets
18 4150 The Shipwrecked Spy
15 4132 Acid Wit
13 4089 Foundation of Discord
9 4079 Haywire Foundry (VON 4)
19 3964 Mining for Ancient Secrets
19 3964 Reclaiming Memories
7 3940 Gwylan's Stand
7 3940 The Tear of Dhakaan
10 3900 Bring Me the Head of Ghola-Fan!
10 3900 Slavers of the Shrieking Mines
15 3844 Delirium
18 3826 Dream Conspiracy
18 3826 Finding the Path
18 3826 The Mindsunder
8 3772 Tomb of the Shadow Guard
8 3772 Tomb of the Shadow Knight
11 3700 The Spawn of Whisperdoom
11 3700 And the Dead Shall Rise…
8 3636 Stormcleave Outpost
13 3620 The Maze of Madness
19 3460 The Weapons Shipment
19 3440 Raiding the Giants Vault (solo)
11 3220 Made to Order
11 3166 Maraud the Mines
8 3160 The Prisoner (VON 2)
10 3140 Reclamation
10 3140 Skyros Jewel
13 3092 A Cabal for One
8 2990 The Rescue
8 2956 Haunted Library
8 2955 Tomb of the Shadow Lord
10 2760 Hiding in Plain Sight (HIPS)
8 2752 Stromvauld's Mine
12 2620 The Titan Awakes
4 2596 Proof is in the Poison
11 2500 Purge the Fallen Shrine
13 2476 Mired in Kobolds
19 2321 Wrath of the Flame
9 2260 Entering the Gate Chamber
10 2152 Secure the Area
7 2148 Free Delera (DT 3)
8 2140 Caverns of Korromar
11 2100 Raid the Vulkoorim
6 2080 Redwillow's Ruins
9 2044 Fane of the Six: Fall of the Prelate (CO6 8)
8 2038 Faithful Departed
10 2038 The Sanctum: Church of the Fury
10 2038 The Sanctum: Quench the Flames
5 2004 Halls of Shan-To-Kor (STK 3)
8 2004 Tharashk Arena (VON 1)
10 2000 Plane of the Night (VON 6)
9 1936 Fane of the Six: Cleansing the Temple (CO6 7)
6 1900 The Devils Assault
4 1867 The Cloven-jaw Scourge: The Caverns of Shaagh (STK 2)
4 1798 Venn's Trail: Clann Tunnelworm
9 1779 The Church and the Cult
4 1764 The Stones Run Red (FC 1)
5 1742 The Mystery of Delera's Tomb (DT 1)
8 1732 The Temple Outpost: The Libram of the Six (CO6 2)
9 1720 The Missing Expedition
11 1700 Desert Caravan
6 1660 Taming the Flames
6 1630 Gladewatch Outpost Defense
9 1612 The Keeper's Sanctuary
6 1600 Dead Girl's Spellbook - Valak's Masuoleum
5 1556 Tomb of the Crimson Heart
5 1556 Tomb of the Immortal Heart
5 1556 Tomb of the Sanguine Heart
4 1504 Irestone Inlet
11 1433 The Chamber of Kourush
8 1426 The Temple Outpost: Captives of the Cult (CO6 1)
2 1420 Misery's Peak
7 1390 Old Grey Garl (GG 2)
7 1380 The Grey Moon's Den: Trollish Scourge (GM 3)
7 1380 The Scoundrel's Run
5 1369 Deadly Package: The Stronghold Key (TR 5)
10 1366 The Chamber of Rahmat
5 1360 Tomb of the Burning Heart
6 1360 Ruined Halls
3 1348 The Kobold's Den: Rescuing Arlos
3 1348 The Swiped Signet
6 1300 The Bounty Hunter
11 1300 From Beyond the Grave
6 1290 Doom of the Witch Doctor: Zulkash Herlad of Woe (TR 8)
7 1252 The Last Move: Yarkuch's Last Stand (TR 10)
2 1244 The Kobold's New Ringleader
3 1244 The Sacred Helm (STK SQ)
5 1220 Ghost of a Chance
5 1220 The Legend of Two Toed Tobias
6 1220 Doom of the Witch Doctor: The Way to Zullash (TR 7)
7 1220 The Grey Moon's Den: Extermination (GM 4)
4 1209 Whisperdoom's Spawn (TR 4)
2 1148 Walk the Butcher's Path
3 1140 The Cloven-jaw Scourge: Blockade (STK 1)
7 1124 The Graverobber
6 1090 Forgotten Caverns
6 1090 The Troglodytes' Get (GG 1)
4 1070 Yarkuch's War Plans (TR 3)
3 1068 The Crypt of Gerard Dryden (CC 4)
3 1060 The Kobold's Den: Clan Gnashtooth
4 1036 Rest for the Restless
5 1024 Brood of Flame (FC 2)
4 1001 Freshen the Air
3 996 Return to the Sanctuary (CC 2)
5 996 The Lair of Summoning
2 980 Information is Key
2 972 Stealthy Repossesion
4 966 The Bookbinder Rescue
3 932 Where There's Smoke
5 921 Prove Your Worth
3 916 Setting the Wards: The Patriarchs' Crypt (CC 6)
9 916 The Library of Threnal
2 906 Durk's Got a Secret
4 888 Venn's Trail: Venn's Fate
5 884 The Chamber of Insanity
6 880 The Iron Mines: Justice for Grust (GM 2)
3 868 The Captives
2 862 Recovering the Lost Tome
5 856 The Depths of Discord
5 846 Deadly Package: Agent of the Darguul (TR 6)
3 820 Setting the Wards: Lower Cathedral (CC 5)
3 820 The Hobgoblins' Captives (TR 2)
3 820 The Old Archives (CC 3)
6 820 Caged Trolls
4 802 The Depths of Darkness
4 793 Come Out and Slay
4 793 Reposession
4 793 Dirty Laundry
4 793 Stand Your Ground
4 793 The Stormreaver Fresco
10 784 Hold for Reinforcements
8 780 In Need of Supplies
3 772 First Strike (TR 1)
5 772 Archer Point Defense
5 772 The Depths of Doom
6 760 Mirra's Sleepless Nights
2 759 Garrison's Missing Pack
3 748 Redfang the Unruled
3 740 Kobold Assault
1 699 The Collaborator (Taking Stock)
2 694 The Smuggler's Warehouse
8 689 The Path to Madness
6 650 Dead Predators
6 650 Purge the Heretics
4 645 The Depths of Despair
2 628 Retrieve the Stolen Goods
9 624 Gateway to Khyber (VON 3a)
10 620 The Gate Chamber
7 612 The Last Move: The Way to Yarkuch (TR 9)
3 580 Endgame: Marguerite (CC 7)
5 548 Guard Duty
1 540 Redemption (Steal the Healing Elixir)
1 540 Sacrifices (Sewer Rescue)
1 540 Stopping the Sahuagin (Survive the Low Road)
6 520 The Iron Mines: Freeing Achka (GM 1)
3 516 The Friar's Niece (CC 1)
2 510 Missing in Action
2 496 The Sunken Sewer
2 408 Protect Baudry's Interests
2 364 Stop Hazadill's Shipment
1 320 Necromancer's Doom (The Missing Ward)
1 313 Heytons Rest (Quest for the Ancient Daggers)
2 298 Bringing the Light
2 273 The Miller's Debt
1 260 The Storehouse's Secret (Search for the Rare Scrolls)
1 220 The Cannith Crystal (A Matter of Protection)
3 220 An Explosive Situation
1 183 Thwarting the Threat
3 182 Home Sweet Sewer
2 173 Arachnophobia
2 155 Defend Haverdasher
4 104 Endgame: Archbishop's Fate (CC 8)


Experience earned in DDO and D&D is not absolute but relative to the challenge faced. That is why you have the over level penalties, the 18th character faces no real challenge in the Shadow Crypt and would actually get 0. But a group of 9th level character can be severely challenged in that quest. The End quests in the Necro are all high EXP (the Bloody Crypt for example) and all tend to be fairly long to complete.

Shaamis
01-12-2010, 09:03 AM
I am having a ton of fun, and a new purpose in playing while I am leveling Shaamis through his first TR.

I am leading more guild runs, meeting new players, having fun planning how I will progress through on the available wilderness/quests at each level, so I dont get in a bad situation when I get to higher levels. I'll have plenty of reps on all of the raids when I get to the appropriate level for them.

And I share sentiment that there is a ton of XP to be had if you do the quests you normally dont do, such as house Jorasco quests OTHER than Delera's, House D quests OTHER than Depths/Stormcleave, and House P quests (ALL).

Shaamis has already reached 9th level, and I have yet to do Threnal, Co6, Stormcleave, Gwylan's Stand, OR Delera's. I am purposely avoiding all of the major XP runs, so I can always hit them when I need the XP later.

If you are grinding for TR XP, of course you are going to complain about the additional XP required, but if you really enjoy playing your capped mains, like I do, then it's just a more scenic trip, which isnt all that bad......

I do plan on TR'ing a second, third, or fourth time, and not against increased XP costs, as long as it's possible to attain that XP in one characters lifetime.

The rewards should also fit the task. The scenic route is fun, but if the reward isnt worth it, then it starts to feel like you are carrying a large boulder on your back, for no reason.

Zenako
01-12-2010, 09:06 AM
Following on...

A table with the EXP/Level of Quest, sorted from most to least



Level Base XP Base/Lvl Name
10 11500 1150 The Vault of the Night (VON 5)
7 7780 1111 The Pit
11 12100 1100 Twilight Forge
9 9820 1091 The Shadow Crypt
6 5200 867 The Bloody Crypt
9 7199 800 The Jungle of Khyber (VON 3b)
2 1420 710 Misery's Peak
1 699 699 The Collaborator (Taking Stock)
17 11540 679 The Thirteen Eclipse: The Shroud
11 7300 664 Tomb of the Tormented
7 4558 651 The Missing Party (DT 2)
4 2596 649 Proof is in the Poison
10 6484 648 Tempest's Spine
2 1244 622 The Kobold's New Ringleader
14 8380 599 The Crucible
15 8740 583 Litany of the Dead
16 9300 581 The Coalescence Chamber
8 4622 578 Thrall of the Necromancer (DT 4)
2 1148 574 Walk the Butcher's Path
10 5698 570 Escort the Expedition
12 6819 568 The Cursed Crypt
8 4520 565 The Xorian Cipher
7 3940 563 Gwylan's Stand
7 3940 563 The Tear of Dhakaan
17 9252 544 Stealer of Souls
1 540 540 Redemption (Steal the Healing Elixir)
1 540 540 Sacrifices (Sewer Rescue)
1 540 540 Stopping the Sahuagin (Survive the Low Road)
12 6399 533 Against the Demon Queen
12 6399 533 The Chamber of Raiyum
16 8433 527 Rainbow in the Dark
8 4180 523 Tomb of the Shadow King
17 8835 520 Enter the Kobold
14 6969 498 Madstone Crator
17 8420 495 Monastery of the Scorpion
2 980 490 Information is Key
2 972 486 Stealthy Repossesion
19 9172 483 A New Invasion
11 5300 482 An Offering of Blood
11 5300 482 The Enemy Within
19 9060 477 Genesis Point
12 5699 475 A Relic of a Sovereign Past
8 3772 472 Tomb of the Shadow Guard
8 3772 472 Tomb of the Shadow Knight
14 6540 467 The Reavers Fate
4 1867 467 The Cloven-jaw Scourge: The Caverns of Shaagh (STK 2)
16 7433 465 Ritual Sacrifice
14 6448 461 Ghosts of Perdition
18 8200 456 A Vision of Destruction
18 8200 456 Hound of Xoriat
8 3636 455 Stormcleave Outpost
14 6356 454 Gianthold Tor
9 4079 453 Haywire Foundry (VON 4)
2 906 453 Durk's Got a Secret
4 1798 450 Venn's Trail: Clann Tunnelworm
3 1348 449 The Kobold's Den: Rescuing Arlos
3 1348 449 The Swiped Signet
11 4900 445 Tomb of the Blighted
16 7099 444 Running with the Devils
4 1764 441 The Stones Run Red (FC 1)
2 862 431 Recovering the Lost Tome
12 5140 428 Zawabi's Revenge
11 4660 424 Tomb of the Forbidden
16 6766 423 Let Sleeping Dust Lie
14 5896 421 Inferno of the Damned
3 1244 415 The Sacred Helm (STK SQ)
5 2004 401 Halls of Shan-To-Kor (STK 3)
8 3160 395 The Prisoner (VON 2)
13 5086 391 A Cry for Help
10 3900 390 Bring Me the Head of Ghola-Fan!
10 3900 390 Slavers of the Shrieking Mines
14 5344 382 Desecrated Temple of Vol
14 5344 382 Flesh Maker's Laboratory
3 1140 380 The Cloven-jaw Scourge: Blockade (STK 1)
11 4180 380 Dreams of Insanity
11 4180 380 Tomb of the Unhallowed
2 759 380 Garrison's Missing Pack
19 7156 377 Sins of Attrition
4 1504 376 Irestone Inlet
8 2990 374 The Rescue
17 6340 373 Prey on the Hunter
12 4468 372 The Chains of Flame
8 2956 370 Haunted Library
8 2955 369 Tomb of the Shadow Lord
13 4795 369 Feast or Famine
12 4299 358 Invaders!
3 1068 356 The Crypt of Gerard Dryden (CC 4)
3 1060 353 The Kobold's Den: Clan Gnashtooth
5 1742 348 The Mystery of Delera's Tomb (DT 1)
2 694 347 The Smuggler's Warehouse
6 2080 347 Redwillow's Ruins
8 2752 344 Stromvauld's Mine
11 3700 336 The Spawn of Whisperdoom
11 3700 336 And the Dead Shall Rise…
3 996 332 Return to the Sanctuary (CC 2)
15 4900 327 Ascension Chamber
13 4206 324 Trial by Fire
1 320 320 Necromancer's Doom (The Missing Ward)
6 1900 317 The Devils Assault
13 4089 315 Foundation of Discord
2 628 314 Retrieve the Stolen Goods
10 3140 314 Reclamation
10 3140 314 Skyros Jewel
1 313 313 Heytons Rest (Quest for the Ancient Daggers)
5 1556 311 Tomb of the Crimson Heart
5 1556 311 Tomb of the Immortal Heart
5 1556 311 Tomb of the Sanguine Heart
3 932 311 Where There's Smoke
7 2148 307 Free Delera (DT 3)
3 916 305 Setting the Wards: The Patriarchs' Crypt (CC 6)
14 4246 303 The Prison of the Planes
4 1209 302 Whisperdoom's Spawn (TR 4)
11 3220 293 Made to Order
3 868 289 The Captives
11 3166 288 Maraud the Mines
13 3620 278 The Maze of Madness
6 1660 277 Taming the Flames
10 2760 276 Hiding in Plain Sight (HIPS)
15 4132 275 Acid Wit
5 1369 274 Deadly Package: The Stronghold Key (TR 5)
3 820 273 Setting the Wards: Lower Cathedral (CC 5)
3 820 273 The Hobgoblins' Captives (TR 2)
3 820 273 The Old Archives (CC 3)
5 1360 272 Tomb of the Burning Heart
6 1630 272 Gladewatch Outpost Defense
19 5140 271 Bastion of Power
4 1070 268 Yarkuch's War Plans (TR 3)
8 2140 268 Caverns of Korromar
6 1600 267 Dead Girl's Spellbook - Valak's Masuoleum
1 260 260 The Storehouse's Secret (Search for the Rare Scrolls)
4 1036 259 Rest for the Restless
3 772 257 First Strike (TR 1)
15 3844 256 Delirium
2 510 255 Missing in Action
8 2038 255 Faithful Departed
9 2260 251 Entering the Gate Chamber
8 2004 251 Tharashk Arena (VON 1)
4 1001 250 Freshen the Air
3 748 249 Redfang the Unruled
2 496 248 The Sunken Sewer
3 740 247 Kobold Assault
5 1220 244 Ghost of a Chance
5 1220 244 The Legend of Two Toed Tobias
4 966 242 The Bookbinder Rescue
20 4798 240 The Dreaming Dark
18 4312 240 In The Demon's Den
13 3092 238 A Cabal for One
18 4150 231 I Dream of Jeets
18 4150 231 The Shipwrecked Spy
11 2500 227 Purge the Fallen Shrine
9 2044 227 Fane of the Six: Fall of the Prelate (CO6 8)
6 1360 227 Ruined Halls
19 4300 226 Eye of the Titan
4 888 222 Venn's Trail: Venn's Fate
1 220 220 The Cannith Crystal (A Matter of Protection)
12 2620 218 The Titan Awakes
6 1300 217 The Bounty Hunter
8 1732 217 The Temple Outpost: The Libram of the Six (CO6 2)
10 2152 215 Secure the Area
9 1936 215 Fane of the Six: Cleansing the Temple (CO6 7)
6 1290 215 Doom of the Witch Doctor: Zulkash Herlad of Woe (TR 8)
18 3826 213 Dream Conspiracy
18 3826 213 Finding the Path
18 3826 213 The Mindsunder
19 3964 209 Mining for Ancient Secrets
19 3964 209 Reclaiming Memories
5 1024 205 Brood of Flame (FC 2)
2 408 204 Protect Baudry's Interests
10 2038 204 The Sanctum: Church of the Fury
10 2038 204 The Sanctum: Quench the Flames
6 1220 203 Doom of the Witch Doctor: The Way to Zullash (TR 7)
4 802 201 The Depths of Darkness
10 2000 200 Plane of the Night (VON 6)
5 996 199 The Lair of Summoning
7 1390 199 Old Grey Garl (GG 2)
4 793 198 Come Out and Slay
4 793 198 Reposession
4 793 198 Dirty Laundry
4 793 198 Stand Your Ground
4 793 198 The Stormreaver Fresco
9 1779 198 The Church and the Cult
7 1380 197 The Grey Moon's Den: Trollish Scourge (GM 3)
7 1380 197 The Scoundrel's Run
3 580 193 Endgame: Marguerite (CC 7)
9 1720 191 The Missing Expedition
11 2100 191 Raid the Vulkoorim
13 2476 190 Mired in Kobolds
5 921 184 Prove Your Worth
1 183 183 Thwarting the Threat
19 3460 182 The Weapons Shipment
2 364 182 Stop Hazadill's Shipment
6 1090 182 Forgotten Caverns
6 1090 182 The Troglodytes' Get (GG 1)
19 3440 181 Raiding the Giants Vault (solo)
9 1612 179 The Keeper's Sanctuary
7 1252 179 The Last Move: Yarkuch's Last Stand (TR 10)
8 1426 178 The Temple Outpost: Captives of the Cult (CO6 1)
5 884 177 The Chamber of Insanity
7 1220 174 The Grey Moon's Den: Extermination (GM 4)
3 516 172 The Friar's Niece (CC 1)
5 856 171 The Depths of Discord
5 846 169 Deadly Package: Agent of the Darguul (TR 6)
4 645 161 The Depths of Despair
7 1124 161 The Graverobber
11 1700 155 Desert Caravan
5 772 154 Archer Point Defense
5 772 154 The Depths of Doom
2 298 149 Bringing the Light
6 880 147 The Iron Mines: Justice for Grust (GM 2)
6 820 137 Caged Trolls
10 1366 137 The Chamber of Rahmat
2 273 137 The Miller's Debt
11 1433 130 The Chamber of Kourush
6 760 127 Mirra's Sleepless Nights
19 2321 122 Wrath of the Flame
11 1300 118 From Beyond the Grave
5 548 110 Guard Duty
6 650 108 Dead Predators
6 650 108 Purge the Heretics
9 916 102 The Library of Threnal
8 780 98 In Need of Supplies
7 612 87 The Last Move: The Way to Yarkuch (TR 9)
6 520 87 The Iron Mines: Freeing Achka (GM 1)
2 173 87 Arachnophobia
8 689 86 The Path to Madness
10 784 78 Hold for Reinforcements
2 155 78 Defend Haverdasher
3 220 73 An Explosive Situation
9 624 69 Gateway to Khyber (VON 3a)
10 620 62 The Gate Chamber
3 182 61 Home Sweet Sewer
4 104 26 Endgame: Archbishop's Fate (CC 8)


Interesting to see how there are quests of all levels spread thru out the list

zealous
01-12-2010, 09:07 AM
Maths?

id Really Like To Know How He Leveled Then. Because I Prepped A Ftp Account With 3 Sorcs At Levels 8,12,16 So I Can Blaze Through Levels 4-16 With Firewall. Be Interesting To See How To Improve Upon 348,000 Xp Per Day.

+



Also, (and This Is A Chronotrigger Secret) If You Have Two Characters Of The Same Level And You Are Entering A Quest On Elite Multiple Times, There Is A Trade-off Available. The Quest May Be Very Easy With A Caster Or Fighter Barreling Through Heedlessly. A Fast Tactic Is To Log The Sorc/wiz Of The Same Level (or Group Level) In And Blaze Through The First 6.5 Mins Killing As Fast As Possible. Then, Log Out And Relog The Character Meant For Completion. The Character Can Enter And Gain Full Xp By The End Of The 13-15 Min Quest. This Works Particularly Well In Quests Like Stormcleave, Thrall Of The Necromancer, Gwylans, Etc. This Also Gives An Edge To Quests That Are Ridiculously Hard At Elite (currently) Under The New Dungeon Alerts And Erroneous Scaling System On The Elite Setting.


+



First, There Are A Few Tactics To Consider And Your Own Abilities. If You And Say A Friend Are Both Equally Capable Of Soloing Elite Quests Like Information Is Key & Leading A Group Of 5 Through The Kobold's New Ringleader, You Can Use A Chronotrigger Initiative (a Guide Reserved For My Guild And Its Alliances) To Reap Xp On Specific Characters. A Party Of 3 Can Be Running The Slow Content (bonebite Ie The Kobold's Ringleader) On Elite Using The Short-cut (jump Over The Initial Boxes After You've Cleared The Kobolds - Do Not Smash The Breakables As You Need Them To Complete The Jump For Some Characters!). Meanwhile, Another Party Of 3 Can Be Running Information Is Key On Elite As Fast As Possible (fast = 4-5 Mins). By The Time Completion Is Achieved In Info, The Kobold's New Ringleaderr Group Should Be 2 Mins Out From Completion. Run To The Bonebite Hideout And Jump In (after Leader Party-invites) And Run To The End To Dispatch The Ogre & Complete The Quest. In 8 Mins You've Achieved 4-5k Xp On 3 Characters And 2-3k Xp On 3 Characters. Repeat As Fast As Possible On Elite. Do This Until Characters Begin Suffering -50% On Quests. Then Revert To Hard For A Bonus 25% And Then Again On Normal Ffor Another Bonus 25%. This Same Tactic With Kobold's New Ringleader Can Be Used With The Smuggler's Warehouse And Bringing The Light. You Can Also Swop Bringing With Info And Smuggler's With Bonebite. These Combinations Will Allow 3 Characters To Reach 50k Xp In 1 Hour 30-40 Mins And Another Set Of Characters To Achieve 30k Xp In 1 Hour 30 Mins Without Ever Leaving 4 Quests. Repetitive? Yes. Fastest Way Possible? I'd Bet My Life On It Because Now You've Got Other Quests Reserved For 1st Time Completion Xp To See You Through The Rest Of The Way.


+



So Assuming You Have 5 Veteran Players Running Two Accounts You Could Theoretically:
Prep 1q Each On The "prepping" Account
Roll New Chars On The "tp" Account And Run To 1stq, Enter; Player Having Prepped Quest Finishes With Prepper, All Exit Tp Chars And Run To Next Q, The One Having Prepped Swaps Char On "prepping" Account
Once All 5 Are Done Everyone Prepps The Next Set Of Qs
Complete Those, Wash Rince And Repeat

#TP swarming can be applied to XP swarming, need a different kinda runner and juss farming different instances of the same q insteado runnin around willy nilly
=


that's The Old Old Old Version Of The Levelling Guide... ;) Try 14 Hours.

I Created A New "slightly Scandalous" Version That Allows Levelling At 7k/xp Every 2 Mins... Yeah... I'm Not Joking.

?

-----
Wether it's a good thing that the quickest way to level is like this I leave to the devs...same as going invis and zerging to objectives, skipping optionals or splitting part of the party to handle optionals, apparently is the way they want the game to be played by those primarily interested in xp. ;)

Personally I think it'd be nice if there where more optionals, optionals being more difficult than the rest of the quest and getting optional based +% xp would go some way to make taking the time and exploring a bit more "advantageous".

Vengenance
01-12-2010, 09:10 AM
I didn't see it posted here, but here is a good link of the xp required for per level.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=93137%5DExperience

Lithic
01-12-2010, 09:11 AM
Following on...
Interesting to see how there are quests of all levels spread thru out the list

That chart doesnt take into account time, nor optionals. Tomb of the shadowknight is better exp/min than shadowcrypt if you have a rogue. Wizking is probably the best exp if you have 6 people who know the quest and can split up.

Zenako
01-12-2010, 09:16 AM
That chart doesnt take into account time, nor optionals. Tomb of the shadowknight is better exp/min than shadowcrypt if you have a rogue. Wizking is probably the best exp if you have 6 people who know the quest and can split up.

Granted, but time for completion is a huge variable depending on lots of factors (Skill of players, gear of toons, class of toons, etc.) The numbers are the raw base EXP on Normal. Obviously everything scales up on Hard and Elite (and you soon might be able to toss in a first time casual run as well which will actually even with a base 50% lower end up worthwhile with bonuses tossed in). For example, good groups could knock off the PIT in 30 minutes or so, a slow group could take 2 hours. But that same slow group is probably going to do every quest slower, and that good group is going to do every quest faster, so the relative values are still largely in place.

There are truely only a handful of quests that take substantially longer to complete once someone knows the quest.

Also up until recently, it was widely accepted that the time spent on optionals was not a good EXP/min decision. HOWEVER, based on recent changes, that is clearly no longer as universally true. However getting all that data is a lot harder to do. Checking the base EXP on normal for 200 quests is fairly easy. Many times you do not get info on optionals and how much they give until you trigger them, meaning you have to actually run all those quests and trigger the optionals. Lots of work.

Battleworm
01-12-2010, 09:25 AM
Rants on quest EXP should be based on facts...

Here is the BASE Normal Setting EXP for quests, sorted by most to least. (Based on recent settings)


Level Base XP Name
11 12100 Twilight Forge
17 11540 The Thirteen Eclipse: The Shroud
10 11500 The Vault of the Night (VON 5)
9 9820 The Shadow Crypt
16 9300 The Coalescence Chamber
17 9252 Stealer of Souls
19 9172 A New Invasion
19 9060 Genesis Point
17 8835 Enter the Kobold
15 8740 Litany of the Dead
16 8433 Rainbow in the Dark
17 8420 Monastery of the Scorpion
14 8380 The Crucible
18 8200 A Vision of Destruction
18 8200 Hound of Xoriat
7 7780 The Pit
16 7433 Ritual Sacrifice
11 7300 Tomb of the Tormented
9 7199 The Jungle of Khyber (VON 3b)
19 7156 Sins of Attrition
16 7099 Running with the Devils
14 6969 Madstone Crator
12 6819 The Cursed Crypt
16 6766 Let Sleeping Dust Lie
14 6540 The Reavers Fate
10 6484 Tempest's Spine
14 6448 Ghosts of Perdition
12 6399 Against the Demon Queen
12 6399 The Chamber of Raiyum
14 6356 Gianthold Tor
17 6340 Prey on the Hunter
14 5896 Inferno of the Damned
12 5699 A Relic of a Sovereign Past
10 5698 Escort the Expedition
14 5344 Desecrated Temple of Vol
14 5344 Flesh Maker's Laboratory
11 5300 An Offering of Blood
11 5300 The Enemy Within
6 5200 The Bloody Crypt
12 5140 Zawabi's Revenge
19 5140 Bastion of Power
13 5086 A Cry for Help
11 4900 Tomb of the Blighted
15 4900 Ascension Chamber
20 4798 The Dreaming Dark
13 4795 Feast or Famine
11 4660 Tomb of the Forbidden
8 4622 Thrall of the Necromancer (DT 4)
7 4558 The Missing Party (DT 2)
8 4520 The Xorian Cipher
12 4468 The Chains of Flame
18 4312 In The Demon's Den
19 4300 Eye of the Titan
12 4299 Invaders!
14 4246 The Prison of the Planes
13 4206 Trial by Fire
8 4180 Tomb of the Shadow King
11 4180 Dreams of Insanity
11 4180 Tomb of the Unhallowed
18 4150 I Dream of Jeets
18 4150 The Shipwrecked Spy
15 4132 Acid Wit
13 4089 Foundation of Discord
9 4079 Haywire Foundry (VON 4)
19 3964 Mining for Ancient Secrets
19 3964 Reclaiming Memories
7 3940 Gwylan's Stand
7 3940 The Tear of Dhakaan
10 3900 Bring Me the Head of Ghola-Fan!
10 3900 Slavers of the Shrieking Mines
15 3844 Delirium
18 3826 Dream Conspiracy
18 3826 Finding the Path
18 3826 The Mindsunder
8 3772 Tomb of the Shadow Guard
8 3772 Tomb of the Shadow Knight
11 3700 The Spawn of Whisperdoom
11 3700 And the Dead Shall Rise…
8 3636 Stormcleave Outpost
13 3620 The Maze of Madness
19 3460 The Weapons Shipment
19 3440 Raiding the Giants Vault (solo)
11 3220 Made to Order
11 3166 Maraud the Mines
8 3160 The Prisoner (VON 2)
10 3140 Reclamation
10 3140 Skyros Jewel
13 3092 A Cabal for One
8 2990 The Rescue
8 2956 Haunted Library
8 2955 Tomb of the Shadow Lord
10 2760 Hiding in Plain Sight (HIPS)
8 2752 Stromvauld's Mine
12 2620 The Titan Awakes
4 2596 Proof is in the Poison
11 2500 Purge the Fallen Shrine
13 2476 Mired in Kobolds
19 2321 Wrath of the Flame
9 2260 Entering the Gate Chamber
10 2152 Secure the Area
7 2148 Free Delera (DT 3)
8 2140 Caverns of Korromar
11 2100 Raid the Vulkoorim
6 2080 Redwillow's Ruins
9 2044 Fane of the Six: Fall of the Prelate (CO6 8)
8 2038 Faithful Departed
10 2038 The Sanctum: Church of the Fury
10 2038 The Sanctum: Quench the Flames
5 2004 Halls of Shan-To-Kor (STK 3)
8 2004 Tharashk Arena (VON 1)
10 2000 Plane of the Night (VON 6)
9 1936 Fane of the Six: Cleansing the Temple (CO6 7)
6 1900 The Devils Assault
4 1867 The Cloven-jaw Scourge: The Caverns of Shaagh (STK 2)
4 1798 Venn's Trail: Clann Tunnelworm
9 1779 The Church and the Cult
4 1764 The Stones Run Red (FC 1)
5 1742 The Mystery of Delera's Tomb (DT 1)
8 1732 The Temple Outpost: The Libram of the Six (CO6 2)
9 1720 The Missing Expedition
11 1700 Desert Caravan
6 1660 Taming the Flames
6 1630 Gladewatch Outpost Defense
9 1612 The Keeper's Sanctuary
6 1600 Dead Girl's Spellbook - Valak's Masuoleum
5 1556 Tomb of the Crimson Heart
5 1556 Tomb of the Immortal Heart
5 1556 Tomb of the Sanguine Heart
4 1504 Irestone Inlet
11 1433 The Chamber of Kourush
8 1426 The Temple Outpost: Captives of the Cult (CO6 1)
2 1420 Misery's Peak
7 1390 Old Grey Garl (GG 2)
7 1380 The Grey Moon's Den: Trollish Scourge (GM 3)
7 1380 The Scoundrel's Run
5 1369 Deadly Package: The Stronghold Key (TR 5)
10 1366 The Chamber of Rahmat
5 1360 Tomb of the Burning Heart
6 1360 Ruined Halls
3 1348 The Kobold's Den: Rescuing Arlos
3 1348 The Swiped Signet
6 1300 The Bounty Hunter
11 1300 From Beyond the Grave
6 1290 Doom of the Witch Doctor: Zulkash Herlad of Woe (TR 8)
7 1252 The Last Move: Yarkuch's Last Stand (TR 10)
2 1244 The Kobold's New Ringleader
3 1244 The Sacred Helm (STK SQ)
5 1220 Ghost of a Chance
5 1220 The Legend of Two Toed Tobias
6 1220 Doom of the Witch Doctor: The Way to Zullash (TR 7)
7 1220 The Grey Moon's Den: Extermination (GM 4)
4 1209 Whisperdoom's Spawn (TR 4)
2 1148 Walk the Butcher's Path
3 1140 The Cloven-jaw Scourge: Blockade (STK 1)
7 1124 The Graverobber
6 1090 Forgotten Caverns
6 1090 The Troglodytes' Get (GG 1)
4 1070 Yarkuch's War Plans (TR 3)
3 1068 The Crypt of Gerard Dryden (CC 4)
3 1060 The Kobold's Den: Clan Gnashtooth
4 1036 Rest for the Restless
5 1024 Brood of Flame (FC 2)
4 1001 Freshen the Air
3 996 Return to the Sanctuary (CC 2)
5 996 The Lair of Summoning
2 980 Information is Key
2 972 Stealthy Repossesion
4 966 The Bookbinder Rescue
3 932 Where There's Smoke
5 921 Prove Your Worth
3 916 Setting the Wards: The Patriarchs' Crypt (CC 6)
9 916 The Library of Threnal
2 906 Durk's Got a Secret
4 888 Venn's Trail: Venn's Fate
5 884 The Chamber of Insanity
6 880 The Iron Mines: Justice for Grust (GM 2)
3 868 The Captives
2 862 Recovering the Lost Tome
5 856 The Depths of Discord
5 846 Deadly Package: Agent of the Darguul (TR 6)
3 820 Setting the Wards: Lower Cathedral (CC 5)
3 820 The Hobgoblins' Captives (TR 2)
3 820 The Old Archives (CC 3)
6 820 Caged Trolls
4 802 The Depths of Darkness
4 793 Come Out and Slay
4 793 Reposession
4 793 Dirty Laundry
4 793 Stand Your Ground
4 793 The Stormreaver Fresco
10 784 Hold for Reinforcements
8 780 In Need of Supplies
3 772 First Strike (TR 1)
5 772 Archer Point Defense
5 772 The Depths of Doom
6 760 Mirra's Sleepless Nights
2 759 Garrison's Missing Pack
3 748 Redfang the Unruled
3 740 Kobold Assault
1 699 The Collaborator (Taking Stock)
2 694 The Smuggler's Warehouse
8 689 The Path to Madness
6 650 Dead Predators
6 650 Purge the Heretics
4 645 The Depths of Despair
2 628 Retrieve the Stolen Goods
9 624 Gateway to Khyber (VON 3a)
10 620 The Gate Chamber
7 612 The Last Move: The Way to Yarkuch (TR 9)
3 580 Endgame: Marguerite (CC 7)
5 548 Guard Duty
1 540 Redemption (Steal the Healing Elixir)
1 540 Sacrifices (Sewer Rescue)
1 540 Stopping the Sahuagin (Survive the Low Road)
6 520 The Iron Mines: Freeing Achka (GM 1)
3 516 The Friar's Niece (CC 1)
2 510 Missing in Action
2 496 The Sunken Sewer
2 408 Protect Baudry's Interests
2 364 Stop Hazadill's Shipment
1 320 Necromancer's Doom (The Missing Ward)
1 313 Heytons Rest (Quest for the Ancient Daggers)
2 298 Bringing the Light
2 273 The Miller's Debt
1 260 The Storehouse's Secret (Search for the Rare Scrolls)
1 220 The Cannith Crystal (A Matter of Protection)
3 220 An Explosive Situation
1 183 Thwarting the Threat
3 182 Home Sweet Sewer
2 173 Arachnophobia
2 155 Defend Haverdasher
4 104 Endgame: Archbishop's Fate (CC 8)


Experience earned in DDO and D&D is not absolute but relative to the challenge faced. That is why you have the over level penalties, the 18th character faces no real challenge in the Shadow Crypt and would actually get 0. But a group of 9th level character can be severely challenged in that quest. The End quests in the Necro are all high EXP (the Bloody Crypt for example) and all tend to be fairly long to complete.

Thanks for proving my point,the only quests with more xp than shadow crypt are raids or pre raids.It also gives more xp than any quest in the game.Including GH,Vale.And shadow crypt for any arcane with firewall is hardly a challenge.

pumagirl418
01-12-2010, 09:34 AM
I have to agree there is not enough high level quests right now, to warrant over 4 million xp. On top of that with all the tweaks to XP, it now makes no sense. midlevel you get way more xp than high level. Some quests are a joke on xp for the effort , no matter the level.

i am not asking for further scale backs to xp, but turbine needs to rethink how much xp high levels are getting. some of the amrath quests are worth less than level 7 quests. on level.

oh and what are returning free players to do, if they are not pay to play or can't buy points. i had an old guildie come back, there was nothing he could play (a great lvl 16 cleric)... he went back to another mmo :(

Zenako
01-12-2010, 09:36 AM
Thanks for proving my point,the only quests with more xp than shadow crypt are raids or pre raids.It also gives more xp than any quest in the game.Including GH,Vale.And shadow crypt for any arcane with firewall is hardly a challenge.

Well if mob behavior observed on Lamannia carries over, that might not be so true soon. The AI seems more reluctant to immolate themselves, at least for some mobs.

It can also take some time to get to the End of Shadow Crypt. Often see parties end up backtracking a lot. One could make much the same case for the PIT and its Experience, but for some reason not many groups run the PIT to ransack...:confused:

BangsLiekWhoa
01-12-2010, 09:41 AM
That chart doesnt take into account time, nor optionals. Tomb of the shadowknight is better exp/min than shadowcrypt if you have a rogue. Wizking is probably the best exp if you have 6 people who know the quest and can split up.

Actually, my friend and I can consistently do Shadow Crypt at level in 17minutes. If you know how to do it right, you can repeat it over and over until you ransack its XP. But wait, There's more! Most of the XP in there comes from optionals, so you still get a ton of XP at level. Sure it only gives ~9.8K base, but tack on all the super easy optionals and you have an easy 20-25K.

Zenako
01-12-2010, 09:43 AM
I have to agree there is not enough high level quests right now, to warrant over 4 million xp. On top of that with all the tweaks to XP, it now makes no sense. midlevel you get way more xp than high level. Some quests are a joke on xp for the effort , no matter the level.

There a lots of ways to boost EXP. 5% from Delaras or Threnal is an easy start. First time awards, conquest, ransack, don't die, don't reenter, etc, etc, etc, You can get EXP boost pots from the store or from collectible turnins. In many quests during actual gameplay it is not that hard to end up with double or close to triple the base EXP by the time you finish the quest (base bonuses plus optionals many of which happen without even trying.)



i am not asking for further scale backs to xp, but turbine needs to rethink how much xp high levels are getting. some of the amrath quests are worth less than level 7 quests. on level.

That is only true in the context of character of those levels. The relative challenges faced by the characters of the quest level target is what determines the size of the EXP award. High level easy quests, give easy quest experience. High level hard quests give hard experience, just like low or mid level hard quests give hard experience.



oh and what are returning free players to do, if they are not pay to play or can't buy points. i had an old guildie come back, there was nothing he could play (a great lvl 16 cleric)... he went back to another mmo :(

Sorry but not a lot of symapthy. Turbine is in the business to make money, not just provide a free service. They have made it so you can choose how much to pay and how much to play. Pay ZERO and you have limited options.

Vuedoo
01-12-2010, 09:46 AM
You Can Also Hold On Taking Levels Throughout The 2nd Reincarnation Growth When You Find Some Lvls that Have Extreme amounts of Xp by Milking out a Number of Quests over an over at Certain Stages of Your Growth in Lvls.

BangsLiekWhoa
01-12-2010, 09:50 AM
You Can Also Hold On Taking Levels Throughout The 2nd Reincarnation Growth When You Find Some Lvls that Have Extreme amounts of Xp by Milking out a Number of Quests over an over at Certain Stages of Your Growth in Lvls.

Yep.

The game lets you gain XP past the point of that required to level within 1XP of being able to level twice. Doing this keeps your level lower and as such, lets you get more XP from quests since you aren't taking -%XP for being over level. This is something you should take advantage of as much as possible.

EDIT: Off topic, but I just noticed you play a lawful good and have the naughty avatar... Kind of amusing to me. lol.

Vuedoo
01-12-2010, 09:55 AM
EDIT: Off topic, but I just noticed you play a lawful good and have the naughty avatar... Kind of amusing to me. lol.

Haha.. No It Was Only A reference of what I personally received from Mr. Jester This Year

Angar
01-12-2010, 09:56 AM
I have not TR'd a character yet, as I don't have a 20 to TR yet - I only came back to the game about 3 months ago. In that time, I have played 10 characters to level 10+, and 3 above 15, so my comments here are based on that experience.

From 1-10, you can't do all quests for full xp, even if you only do each one on hard one time. After 10, it slows a bit to 15, but you still can get to 15 with zero repeats and not run all content. After 15 (highest is 18 so far, so experience is more limited), as a PUG only player, I find it difficult to make much headway. Once you are in the 17-18 range, trying to find players to do the good quests for xp is rare. I only shudder to think how bad it was a couple months ago when there weren't all the TR's running around looking for xp. As it sits, I might run five quests with my 18 sorc before I get any xp at all. Slayers are great, but get boring fast, and once you have knocked out the first 750 in each area, the xp slows down a lot.

I am sure if a very active guild were involved, you can power through the 17-20 range quickly, but from my limited experience, this level range is lacking in xp. Furthermore, powering through these quests requires great expense for clerics and casters in the form of SP pots and scrolls.

I rolled a rogue a little while back, as a veteran, so I started at 4. I played about 6 hours per day, but because it was almost all PUGs, I got perhaps 4 hours of good quest time in. I never zerged anything, even though most quests were all too familiar, and I seldom repeated anything. I did do delaras pt 2 until the xp hit was large, as well as a few pt 4 runs, and I ran some of the better quests on both hard and elite, but aside from that, I didn't really repeat much of anything. I have maybe done 60% of the content from 1-15 (only did one quest in necropolis, still not done with GH or Desert, don't even have enough house K for extra bank slot, and barely have house P buffs, etc). It took 7 days and I was level 15. I don't see myself as hardcore, just addicted to playing at the moment. Some would disagree, calling me a hardcore player, and some would see me as average, but either way, I think the first time through, at least to 15, is too easy. From 15+, it slows down, and I hear complaints in game from TR's all the time about how bad it is, and these are mostly guilded power players.

Personally, I think capping a TR even one time should be an accomplishment that not everyone has the patience/time/money/dedication to make. Doing it twice should make you want to poke your eyes out with a dull spoon, and anything more than that should be akin to torture, requiring you to spend your first week in Kothos doing all quests until you don't get a single point of experience.

Then again, what would be the point? There is not much challenge in this game for a well built 32 pt character as it is, so why go through that for a slightly better build? TR is a way to keep veteran players in the game until a level increase and more content can happen. In a month or two, the novelty will wear off and these people will realize they are still playing the same game they have been playing for 3 years, only it's more boring now. I can't see myself submitting myself to the torture of waterworks any more, so I am banking on the idea that the later game content will keep my interest. I give kudos to anyone who rolls a TR, but if the grind isn't for you, then it isn't for you.

The_Phenx
01-12-2010, 10:04 AM
My actual suggestions would be closer to 2.7 mil for 1st, 3.6 mil for the 2nd.

And every additional TR would be 2.7.

Shrug a couple guildies capped their first TR in 84 hours of total play time.

Zenako
01-12-2010, 10:06 AM
Slayers are great, but get boring fast, and once you have knocked out the first 750 in each area, the xp slows down a lot.

I am sure if a very active guild were involved, you can power through the 17-20 range quickly, but from my limited experience, this level range is lacking in xp. Furthermore, powering through these quests requires great expense for clerics and casters in the form of SP pots and scrolls.
.

Got to comment and clarify a couple of points you raised. The actual rate of EXP from slayers is pretty constant, the only thing that changes is the interval at which you get the awards. If you look at the math and size of the awards this becomes clearer. Yes going from 750 to 1500 takes a while, but the award at 1500 is close to the sum of all the awards before it for those first 750 kills. Players have presented good cases for making the intervals smaller and spreading out the EXP awards proportionately.

As to the later point, the experience of many is that once you are "high level" 16+, that getting EXP is no longer really an issue. That during normal play, you shoot up levels pretty consistently. Yes, most of that time it might be playing with friends or a guild, but even solo it is not that hard to level. The level range is not lacking in EXP, but you are having trouble finding players to run it with, and that is another story. Usually by the time players have reached the end game levels, they have hooked up with some others in the game to establish gaming friendships or the like. If you are still solo, then that is a serious part of the problem.

pumagirl418
01-12-2010, 10:09 AM
You know what, they are a business. duh!
why wouldn't they want returning high level players to have something to play to get wrapped back up in the game? no, seems like they only want NEW players. if i had, hmm let's say, 4 quests i could run with my guildies, perhaps get them back into the game... then maybe they could find the cash to play. considering he left turbine for turbine to start with, ddo to lotro... and from there... well now he is on another mmo w/ another company. Multiple guildies have come back, log on, and log off, i can't run with them, im normally too high a level and there is nothing they can run on higher toons.
so as a business, you don't think turbine might want to lure more money in. you seem to have taken my request out of context and thought i wanted all the high level quests free or something. no i don't. but how can a business make more money if it only looks at the smaller picture (new players). i lost most of my guild to lotro back in the day... they don't play lotro, they don't log on lotro, but they do come here. perhaps they would spend money here if turbine could give them a little taste of what they left.


so in order to get xp in higher levels i am forced to buy pots? i think not. xp is extremely out of wack, and continues to be. whatever model xp turbine started with, they need to rethink it. and considering quests now count how many times you run them total (normal, hard, & elite). yes they always counted them before cap... but not all the runs for all the difficulties to together. to further explain if i ran a quest 2 times on normal and 2 on elite, before each normal counted singularly and each elite counted singularly. now i step in the same quest and i am told i have ran the quest 4 times, regardless of difficulty (unless it is the first time bonus for hard).

and as for difficulty of the dungeon factoring into xp. well then when i get in a 'bad' group there be should more xp, right? because it is more difficult because ofh sub par players... hmm... i see more problems in high level quests than mid level quests. mid level you run without a healer for 'blanks'sake. oh and if the dungeon is harder, say more people in party and thus scales to more difficult, according to your argument, i should get more xp. you can't have it both ways.
xp is all over the field, because of all the changes they have made to it. a new model needs to be implimented. i can almost guarantee, if they did i wouldn't be happy. but it still needs to be done, in a way that makes more sense across the board from newb on korthos to multicapped toon.

Clay
01-12-2010, 10:22 AM
Well I think it would actually be possible to cap a 2xTR in a day, would need 4 really hardcore buddies and some cheesy tactics though.

I realize that there are ways to gain xp with preppers and have done so... but I find it boring and it feels more like "work" than play. There was a neat idea in your 2nd post of a guy running in clearing, getting alert and then DCing out... never thought of that one. I was referring more to regular people playing hard. It is not unreasonable for anyone with a bunch of game time, to level a TR in a week.

IronForge, I think that if you have the right partner and can pair up consistently for 2 weeks, that you would be able to do the same thing. One only needs to think ahead and not always take the level just when you reach it.

ahpook
01-12-2010, 10:28 AM
My experience is similar to Draccus, in that I have had a blast levelling my TR. I have been running all kinds of quests and enjoying the variety.

As for XP i haven't seen a problem. For most of his levelling he has been holding back on levelling because there are a lot of quests that he hadn't run. My Tr'ed dude has almost enough XP for 18 but is currently only at level 16. He has just finished up with GH questing (to get argo favor) and has done all of 1 orchard quest and 1 vale quest. I ma having trouble exhasting the quest options before being forced to level.

However, he won't be doing TRx2. While the XP for the first TR is fine, I don't really want to try to do it again with another 1.3 Million XP needed. Especially when that XP is mostly needed at the 16-20 level range. That doesn't prove that it is too high. Only that it is too high for me. If the XP was similar to the first TR I might go it again.

pumagirl418
01-12-2010, 10:32 AM
the first tr is okay, at least you get high enough to run with the big boys before the levels start crawling by. granted i banked mine at 4, until the 20% came out.

its that second tr... got a guildie that will be undertaking it very soon... somehow i think the back channel is going to be full of saractic comments when he does. rotfl

ahpook
01-12-2010, 10:33 AM
You know what, they are a business. duh!
why wouldn't they want returning high level players to have something to play to get wrapped back up in the game? no, seems like they only want NEW players. if i had, hmm let's say, 4 quests i could run with my guildies, perhaps get them back into the game... then maybe they could find the cash to play. considering he left turbine for turbine to start with, ddo to lotro... and from there... well now he is on another mmo w/ another company. Multiple guildies have come back, log on, and log off, i can't run with them, im normally too high a level and there is nothing they can run on higher toons.
so as a business, you don't think turbine might want to lure more money in. you seem to have taken my request out of context and thought i wanted all the high level quests free or something. no i don't. but how can a business make more money if it only looks at the smaller picture (new players). i lost most of my guild to lotro back in the day... they don't play lotro, they don't log on lotro, but they do come here. perhaps they would spend money here if turbine could give them a little taste of what they left.



You do know that update 3 has some high level quests that are F2P, right? I believe they are level 13, 15, 15 and 18.

BrianTheHun
01-12-2010, 10:45 AM
I TR'd my main, a rogue I've been playing since drow were available in '06. He's armed to the teeth with Greensteel and raid loot. Levels 9-13 are huge as far as getting gear and weapons if your toon is set with all that equipment. At level 11, I was wearing 7 fingered gloves and my existential stalemate helm, and I had a UMD of 38. GS weapons at lvl 12 made the Gianthold and Vale a breeze. Seriously, with all the gear I had, it goes way beyond the standard level of twinking for a regular vet of that level.

So considering that, I can see the extra xp being a necessity. It took me about 3 weeks of hardcore xp grinding to get back to level 20, but using that gear would have got me to cap much faster than usual if I only needed the regular 1.9 million. I think there does need to be more xp earned than usual, but I don't know if it needs to be quite as much. IMO, I think that 1.5 times the standard amount for the first TR (2.85mil), and double the standard for the second (3.8mil) would be fair.

gwlech
01-12-2010, 10:59 AM
That chart doesnt take into account time, nor optionals. Tomb of the shadowknight is better exp/min than shadowcrypt if you have a rogue. Wizking is probably the best exp if you have 6 people who know the quest and can split up.

Heck, Wiz King can be one of the most unforgiving quests for it's level. I guarantee that pretty much any toon of same lvl can solo it in under 30 mins (clearing all optionals) IF you just take along a few key essential items/consumables.

Just that quest alone can get a non xp potted toon 2 lvls or so at least.

Nahual
01-12-2010, 11:18 AM
Now I now TR is out there for everyone and yes some people have pointed out before that it is very easy to cap a lvl 20 char.

I want to make a point that most of the people TRing are veterans that have also the equipment to do it. Once you hit lvl 11 and 12 you get your shroud items back and most of your raid loot and beeing that decked out at those levels xping come a lot easier.

Which means you also need to think ahead if you char has the right gear to do it. TR is not for everyone and especially not to people that just hit cap and dont even have 20 completions on reaver.

Im just saying that TR is not like rerolling a toon. Ive been lvling 2 toons(not true ressed) with TRssed friends and its fun to see how they are going to manage the xp and were to go next.

But my point is you need to plan with items and quests.

Bunker
01-12-2010, 11:32 AM
I have to agree there is not enough high level quests right now, to warrant over 4 million xp. On top of that with all the tweaks to XP, it now makes no sense. midlevel you get way more xp than high level. Some quests are a joke on xp for the effort , no matter the level.

i am not asking for further scale backs to xp, but turbine needs to rethink how much xp high levels are getting. some of the amrath quests are worth less than level 7 quests. on level.

oh and what are returning free players to do, if they are not pay to play or can't buy points. i had an old guildie come back, there was nothing he could play (a great lvl 16 cleric)... he went back to another mmo :(

I'm really responding to many posts on this thread, but using yours Puma.

Question on the Table: Is there enough XP in the game?
Answer: Yes.

I once leveled a character (no TR) by doing each quest in game only once on normal difficulty. No hard or elite, very minimal slayer/explorer. So yes, here is enough xp in the game.

Are there some great Mid Level Quests that get overlooked?
Answer: Yes

The desert is a prime example. Soooo much XP to be gained out in the desert. I say a good time to run it is lvl 9-13, and anywhere in there. Wizard King alone you can net 25-35k the first time. A lot of players run the standard house quests, maybe vons and threnals, and jump right into Gianthold. Well no wonder they run out, they are in the Vale so quick that by time they do all the lvl 17 and up quests, they sure are out. Skipping half the compendium and no getting nothing being too high lvl.

Do some Mid Level quests give more xp then High Level quests?
Answer: Yes.

Of course that is true. But you need to look closer and see the big picture. If you are searching for good xp, then you need to look at time spent in a quest. Some quests take quite a whle, sure they give a lot of XP, but they might take 30-60 minutes. Take the Mining quest on he new island. I dont' know what it is called. Any group, 1-6 players can complete that in under 3 minutes. 4-6k xp each time. Not all quests are like that but many out there are.

Set a goal: Target XP per minute - per hour
Aim for 1000xp per minute. Now that is an average. There will be quests that you can achieve that. There will be others to raise the average and others to lower it.

1,000xp/minute
60,000xp/hour
4.3 million(tr2)/60,000 = 71 hours and 40 minutes

Assume for a moment that you spend just as much time out of a quest as you do in. So double the time seeing as you are running from quest to quest, quest giver, shops, AH, ect......

That means for a TR #2 to cap, you need to play just over 143 hours. Average power gamer probably puts in a full work week of 40 hours gaming. So figure they can cap a TR #2 in just over 3 weeks. Some will do it much faster, cutting out the time out of quest, or perhaps logging more hours.

A few things I believe:
There is enough xp.
The xp needed for TR 1 and 2 are close to accurate.
The xp needed to cap is a fair value to the benifits of TR.

Thrudh
01-12-2010, 11:57 AM
I really really enjoyed the first reincarnation. By the time I capped, I had 2500ish favor, and just had a very pleasant 3 weeks capping, hitting every single raid and quest in the game.

However... I think the xp required for the 2nd is right out. There's not enough xp in the end game to support it.

I agree with this... First re-incarnate is okay, plenty of quests and experience in the game to support it... second re-incarnate requires way too much

Thrudh
01-12-2010, 12:01 PM
Capping a TR is a matter of a week of hardcore leveling. A 2xTR is maybe 2 weeks. So if you don't play it hardcore, maybe twice that time.


FYI... The difference between hardcore and not hardcore is not 50%... I've been playing my first TR almost exclusively, and I'm 16th level after 5 weeks... Probably take me a full 2 months to cap my TR... I do plan on reincarnating him again... and it will probably take me 3-4 months to cap him again...

So it's not

Hardcore: 1 week
Not Hardcore: 2 weeks

It's...

Hardcore: 1 week
Not Harcore: 2 months.

You hardcore players need to understand this.

bobbryan2
01-12-2010, 12:19 PM
Rants on quest EXP should be based on facts...

Here is the BASE Normal Setting EXP for quests, sorted by most to least. (Based on recent settings)


Level Base XP Name

17 11540 The Thirteen Eclipse: The Shroud
16 9300 The Coalescence Chamber
17 9252 Stealer of Souls
19 9172 A New Invasion
19 9060 Genesis Point
17 8835 Enter the Kobold
15 8740 Litany of the Dead
16 8433 Rainbow in the Dark
17 8420 Monastery of the Scorpion
18 8200 A Vision of Destruction
18 8200 Hound of Xoriat
16 7433 Ritual Sacrifice
19 7156 Sins of Attrition
16 7099 Running with the Devils
16 6766 Let Sleeping Dust Lie
17 6340 Prey on the Hunter
19 5140 Bastion of Power
15 4900 Ascension Chamber
20 4798 The Dreaming Dark
18 4312 In The Demon's Den
19 4300 Eye of the Titan
18 4150 I Dream of Jeets
18 4150 The Shipwrecked Spy
15 4132 Acid Wit
19 3964 Mining for Ancient Secrets
19 3964 Reclaiming Memories
15 3844 Delirium
18 3826 Dream Conspiracy
18 3826 Finding the Path
18 3826 The Mindsunder
19 3460 The Weapons Shipment
19 3440 Raiding the Giants Vault (solo)
19 2321 Wrath of the Flame




Just to illustrate the actual problem, instead of covering it up in with irrelevant facts. No one cares about the first 14 levels of a TR. The hurt comes in the final 4-5 levels. And like I said, there is plenty of quests currently to support the first TR... easily even.

The second TR hurts a little bit. That problem will be ameliorated with future updates, and will become less and less of an issue, but for right now, it's a lot. You have about 2,000,000 xp to get off of these quests alone.

jkm
01-12-2010, 12:31 PM
for anyone who has TR'd, the problem is that DDO's XP is MID loaded while the TR's XP is END loaded. most of the best XP in the game is in the level 7-10 range so you end up doing these quests until you are level 12 or 13 even at a penalty because there just isn't a lot of XP in the latter quests.

Renvar
01-12-2010, 12:34 PM
Well, that' chart's not exactly true. You are running elite Gianthold walkups at level 16 with no XP penalty for level. You can easily run level 13 quests on elite, 14 on hard, and 15 on norm at level 16. You can still get level 15 quests up to level 18 with no penalty for level. And it's only -10 for being two levels over the quest level. So all of Gianthold and Necro 4 play well into the 16-20 range. That adds a lot of XP. And you also need to consider the vale, reavers refuge, and Savarath wilderness areas. There is a lot of XP available there, even if only going to 1500 on the slayers.

I'm not saying its not a terrible grind and I'm not saying there isn't an XP deficit at the top levels, but there is more there than just level 15-20 quests. It's really 13-20 + wilderness areas to get that last 2 million. And since that adds some very good XP quests to the list it does have a dramatic impact. Keeping XP pots on also helps. You are shaving 400k of XP off with that alone.

Spiffyspiffy
01-12-2010, 01:41 PM
11 12100 Twilight Forge
17 11540 The Thirteen Eclipse: The Shroud
10 11500 The Vault of the Night (VON 5)
9 9820 The Shadow Crypt


i.e. the top three xp are raids, which will never be run without higher levels destroying the xp, and the fourth is the level 9 quest everybody knows is the best xp in the game.



That is why you have the over level penalties, the 18th character faces no real challenge in the Shadow Crypt and would actually get 0. But a group of 9th level character can be severely challenged in that quest.A level 8 sorcerer can solo Shadow Crypt on normal while 5 other people sit afk at the zone in, and get the optional chest. With no deaths. I have done this. I suspect a level 7 wizard could manage it.

Bunker
01-12-2010, 03:53 PM
i.e. the top three xp are raids, which will never be run without higher levels destroying the xp, and the fourth is the level 9 quest everybody knows is the best xp in the game.


A level 8 sorcerer can solo Shadow Crypt on normal while 5 other people sit afk at the zone in, and get the optional chest. With no deaths. I have done this. I suspect a level 7 wizard could manage it.

Not the best, but certainly up there. Especially since it requires 1 player while the rest chill out.

---------------

For those saying there isn't enough xp. Don't level up right away all the time. Run quests to get xp, move on. But you can wait an entire lvl before moving up. It helps with not out leveling the content you may have overlooked and missed.

Ganak
01-12-2010, 04:41 PM
Keep in mind TR'ing will be even better down the road as more upper level quests are added.

Angar
01-12-2010, 06:14 PM
Got to comment and clarify a couple of points you raised. The actual rate of EXP from slayers is pretty constant, the only thing that changes is the interval at which you get the awards. If you look at the math and size of the awards this becomes clearer. Yes going from 750 to 1500 takes a while, but the award at 1500 is close to the sum of all the awards before it for those first 750 kills. Players have presented good cases for making the intervals smaller and spreading out the EXP awards proportionately.
I guess I wasn't clear enough that the point was it turns into a grind after the 750 mark.. If you take a slayer to 7500 you probably average fairly consistent over the whole course, but after a few hours grinding the same run over and over, even with a group, is just as boring as running waterworks for the thousandth time. When I hit 5000 solo kills in the orchard, I vowed never to return, ever. Unfortunately, 3 more characters means I needed more taps, and now my sorc is almost to 7500 there.. I can do it in my sleep, but who wants to? You are correct though, slayer is good xp as long as you are in the level range.


As to the later point, the experience of many is that once you are "high level" 16+, that getting EXP is no longer really an issue. That during normal play, you shoot up levels pretty consistently. Yes, most of that time it might be playing with friends or a guild, but even solo it is not that hard to level. The level range is not lacking in EXP, but you are having trouble finding players to run it with, and that is another story. Usually by the time players have reached the end game levels, they have hooked up with some others in the game to establish gaming friendships or the like. If you are still solo, then that is a serious part of the problem.
Yes, part of the problem is running without a guild after level 16. However, if you just count the "uptime", or in other words, the time in actual quests and raids, the xp return is much slower, especially compared to the amount needed to level up. I dinged 18, and after about 14 hours of play including some slayer in the desert for relics for other characters, 3 vale quests, a hound raid, tor, and 2 quests in the new area, I have a little over a rank of xp. That is on a regular toon, not a TR. It was mentioned that time is the critical factor, and after about 15, it starts taking much more time to get the same amount of xp. Yes, it is far more of a hit when doing those quests as PUGs because the failure rate is higher, takes longer to get a group together, and quests tend to take longer, particularly when half the group is new to the quests. I think the fact remains that there isn't as much xp at higher levels, and the spread isn't nearly as linear as it is from 1-15.

I think your point is very valid - xp isn't really an issue at high levels because you level up so you can play at those levels. HOWEVER, with a TR, the goal isn't to get to the high end content, you have already done that, probably multiple times if you are a long time veteran. The point of a TR is to get to the cap so you can do it again. There are two types of players: The ones who TR'd so they could achieve a capped TR or even a second TR, and the ones who TR'd so they could play back through everything with their favorite toon, doing things just a little different this time, and of course, twinked to the hilt.

Let me put it this way: The reward for capping a TR is a slightly more powerful 20th level toon in a world where you don't need a slightly more powerful toon. There isn't anything in this game that can't be accomplished *without* a capped TR. If there is no real reward other than the achievement of completing it, what point is there to it, other than to play the game from the beginning again? If you take away the challenge of achievement by lowering the amount of xp required, which is really the only challenge here, then you remove the only reward left for having a TR to begin with. If anything, it should be harder to level a TR, with progressively greater rewards, and something to show that you accomplished what not every player had the time/patience/money/etc to do.

Riggs
01-12-2010, 06:53 PM
Set a goal: Target XP per minute - per hour
Aim for 1000xp per minute. Now that is an average. There will be quests that you can achieve that. There will be others to raise the average and others to lower it.

1,000xp/minute
60,000xp/hour
4.3 million(tr2)/60,000 = 71 hours and 40 minutes


Yeah, good luck on ever seeing those kind of numbers.

Maybe on a capped sorc zerging the nuts out of quests. Maybe. Not possible with level appropriate characters outside of a couple 'good' quests.

20k per hour in really good quests maybe. But the game is full of 'not so good' quests you still have to run.

So...71 hours is completely way off.

Valiance
01-12-2010, 07:02 PM
Yeah, good luck on ever seeing those kind of numbers.

Maybe on a capped sorc zerging the nuts out of quests. Maybe. Not possible with level appropriate characters outside of a couple 'good' quests.

20k per hour in really good quests maybe. But the game is full of 'not so good' quests you still have to run.

So...71 hours is completely way off.

Ya totally 20k xp an hour is what I shoot for as well. So 4.3 mill divided by 20k is 215 hours. That counts no "down time" which is really going to push it up to about 300 hours.

I play about 3 hours a day so...if I did nothing but solely focus on leveling it would take me about 100 days to do just my 2nd TR.

I was getting bored with the game and thought that TR would be a nice refreshing change of pace but numbers like that keep making me ask what's the point to any of it?

Edit: Remember this is 100 days that I would be collecting no raid loot, and thus would actually be falling behind the power curve of my friends in the guild who were to spend those 300 hours just hitting the raids over and over. If we say a raid is about an hour on average (generous considering DQ and reaver are incredibly short), then they would wrack up 300 raid completions in the same amoumt of time it will take me to level.

Let's see what's more powerful a 36 point build with let's say plus 2 spell pen and plus 10 hp or the same build that is 32 pts and has wracked up about 60 pices of raid gear. (Dividing the 300 completions by 1/5th the supposed loot drop on hard to take an average.) This doesn't even include the 15 raid loot end reward lists that you would get which would include several plus 3 if not plus 4 tomes.

Finally, for those of you who argue that you have to "pay" to get the big reward of TR'ing I point you to the raid loot numbers above. Also remember that you also have to acquire the true heart of wood (which 95% of people pay actual money for by using TPs).

V

V

Aeneas
01-12-2010, 07:09 PM
I think powerleveling and level penalties should be removed from raids.


It's seriously hard to find a raid that doesn't have a level 20 in it destroying your xp.

Riggs
01-12-2010, 07:13 PM
XP is way off whack for TR.

Long and short?

1. Lower the xp penalty, and assuming you do it more than twice - there should be little to no penalty for the next ones (your not getting more build points are you? then why are you getting the xp hit?)

2. Higher level quests should be worth way more xp than they are now. Seriously - 3800(most of the new quests are worth less than the Shavarath ones, and the Shavarath ones are worth the same, or less than stuff 4-6 levels lower)?

3. Respec reincarnation. Not 3 levels, not 1 level - just a full on respec. Will pay for it, since paying something for it is worth a LOT more than grinding out months worth of xp.

First off, assuming your using TR to 'respec' as many people are doing - since there is no, and appears there will be no plans to have a real respec despite years of requests for it - that means your taking an old 'gimp', and knowingly running him/her from 16 to 20 (assuming you capped in the long wait for Mod 9).

Grinding out xp to level 20 in LOW xp level 18 quests (seriously 3-4k quests for level 18-20?), just to finally get to pay 3 months worth of Turbine points so you can start all over again at a 60% penalty - for 2 build points and a +1 to something somewhere. If TR GAVE you a extra feat rather than requiring you SPEND a feat to get anything good....maybe.

As the XP chart shows, and anyone who has played the game past level 16 knows - there is a ton of xp at mid levels, good xp a bit higher up - and pretty much all the high level quests are worth - on average - nearly half the xp that LOWER level quests are worth - which is really, really absurd.

The problem with TR isnt mid levels. It is the 1-2 million XP (esp. on TR 2) you need to grind out from quests with a base xp of say ...3800. That is a completely absurd number for a level 18-20 quest.

Burnout. Most people enjoy playing more than one character in a year. TR basically says to you "Ok now that you have 'tweaked' your character, and got 2 points out of it - now spend the next several months running all the quests you had already done on the guy over again, 5 times each, and dont even think about playing other characters you actually enjoy playing until you finally get back up again. Because if you just play the guy once in a while playing other characters too - your going to take 8 months to get it capped again."

yeah thats fun eh? So far everyone I know that has TR (and one that is on the second), are varying from grumbling to being actively unhappy over how much work goes into getting back to level 20.

Also keep in mind at least half of the people TR now would pay, and be happy not having the 2 build points if there was a respec mechanism (like say Greater Reincarnation +20 not +3....).

"Is there enough xp to level?" Yeah sure. Is all that xp FUN. Heck no.

Slayers can be good xp. Sure. Then after 1500 say you go back and spend hours on end just to get the next level. Many quests are annoying, which is why most people skip them - but when your dinged with a xp hit, you pretty much have to run everything in the game multiple times if you want to level before next year.

Cyr
01-13-2010, 09:16 AM
Indeed the xp penalty for TR is pretty harsh. I think for the first two times it is fairly bad, but acceptable due to the extra build points. After that I think the xp to level should be at the normal non-TR rate. That is unless there is going to be some extremely powerful benefit for TR's after two that has not yet been released...and no completionist is not it. I am talking about something that actually makes the 3+ TR much better each time you TR justifying the large xp penalty.

smatt
01-13-2010, 10:48 AM
I really really enjoyed the first reincarnation. By the time I capped, I had 2500ish favor, and just had a very pleasant 3 weeks capping, hitting every single raid and quest in the game.

However... I think the xp required for the 2nd is right out. There's not enough xp in the end game to support it.


There isn't? Really are you sure?

Battleworm
01-13-2010, 10:57 AM
There isn't? Really are you sure?

well technically there is.The reality is lvl 16 to 20 takes 100 times longer than 0-16 for the fact all the quests have the craptacular base xp of about 4000 if you exclude the vale (5 quests) and shavarath ( 5 quests) which leaves you the very desirable and time friendly option of capping slayers or run those gems in inspired quarter (joke of a name if there is one) or dreaming dark.Great options.Also,Every raid has a lvl 20 in it.

So,grind 300000 xp from 18 to 19 in those 3000xp quests and let us know how it goes.

smatt
01-13-2010, 11:00 AM
There is a very easy way to solve this problem... Don't TR or don't TR the 2nd time....

The benefits for a 2nd TR are onyl for the true powergamer desperate to bit jsut a little better than the next power gamer... It's like running a 13.25 quarter mile instead of a 13.30 quarter. It would certainly appeal to a few.... IMO, the first TR at 3.139 mil is about right... It should be more the 2nd time around.... And if you pay attention to WHAT quests you run, don't take levels to fast it's seems pretty easy to hit that mark with little effort other than 50% more time to cap in the first place....


ORRRRRR, they could just say OK you want a capped level 20 toon.... Here have it... you watn boots here ahve them... You win DDO

***, ever happened to working for an earning things? The better the things, in general the longer or harder you have to work. Welcome to the world.... If it's too hard don't do it ;)

While I understand a lto fo peopel felt screwed over by game changes, and that resurrection was needed... I still think that MANY of the people that were crying should've known better. I'm still not all for resurection.. It cheapened DDO.... They bent and wilted to entitled crowd.......

But hey I'll use it...

jkm
01-13-2010, 11:01 AM
I think powerleveling and level penalties should be removed from raids.


It's seriously hard to find a raid that doesn't have a level 20 in it destroying your xp.

+1

especially titan

smatt
01-13-2010, 11:07 AM
well technically there is.The reality is lvl 16 to 20 takes 100 times longer than 0-16 for the fact all the quests have the craptacular base xp of about 4000 if you exclude the vale (5 quests) and shavarath ( 5 quests) which leaves you the very desirable and time friendly option of capping slayers or run those gems in inspired quarter (joke of a name if there is one) or dreaming dark.Great options.Also,Every raid has a lvl 20 in it.

So,grind 300000 xp from 18 to 19 in those 3000xp quests and let us know how it goes.

Reavers Refuge.... And I will starting Friday have seen A LOT of people do it.... No big deal.. It should be time consuming and harder than the first time around.... Reember par tof the reason they put it in is to give people soemthing to do.. If you don't want to do it level a new toon and don't do it.... Everybody wants to simply have it done for them....... That's what this world in general is coming to.. Pure and simple laziness... :cool: I'm lazy as heck now... But man....

Maybe if they made it easy and offerred XP sigils in the store 1 mil XP for 5,000 TPs.... Then the easy crowd could buy their way a bit further... Oh wait then they might have to work to pay for it... Nevermind :D

Strakeln
01-13-2010, 11:12 AM
The XP required is 3,139,250 on the first one, and 4,378,500 on the second.

ROFL!

Total pwnage :D

bruha118
01-13-2010, 11:15 AM
i must say i agree wil OP the xp needed is kinda silly...i have a TR toon and hes been collecting dust after hitting 12 lev...that kind of grind sux...i ended up just rolling up a new toon to play...now GR when it gets here should be cool

Angar
01-13-2010, 11:17 AM
Yeah, good luck on ever seeing those kind of numbers.

Maybe on a capped sorc zerging the nuts out of quests. Maybe. Not possible with level appropriate characters outside of a couple 'good' quests.

20k per hour in really good quests maybe. But the game is full of 'not so good' quests you still have to run.

So...71 hours is completely way off.


Bah.. you can run Delaras and easily hit 60k per hour.. part 2 is worth about 17k the first time through on normal and hard with a 20% potion and a voice IF you do the optionals, which only take an extra 4 minutes tops.. a halfway decent 4 man can do part 1 in about 7-10 mins, then do part 2 3 times in a row, on normal, hard, then elite in about an hour and you will get an easy 60k.. and if you repeat part 2 and part 4 6 times each, you can net well over 150k xp in about 3 hours total time. During the holiday xp bonus I netted close to 200k xp doing this.. and even with down time and all it took me about 5 hours total. There are some areas you can do this sort of thing (threnal, necropolis, delaras to name a few), and burn through level 6-13 in very short order.

The problem is still post 15, where you no longer have a 15 minute quest that can net 15k xp.. I have seen TRs go to 15 in a few days, and heard about TRs that hit cap in a week, but it is work, not play. It is not a question of possible, but whether it's worth it.

Raiderone
01-13-2010, 11:30 AM
I've almost finished my first TR. It has been a joy. I think I enjoyed TR'ing from 1 to 20 more than I enjoyed my first trip from 1 to 20. Reliving all those quests on my main, favorite character has been great.

I've been asked quite a bit if I'm going to do a second TR. My response is absolutely NOT. If the XP penalty was the same for the second as the first, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But the penalty for the second is just too high to make it enjoyable.

Why even make it harder than the first TR? Since the 3rd TR is the same XP as the second, it's not like there's some sort of balance issue. Make all TR's the same XP as the first and you'll have a LOT more people TR'ing a second time.

/Signed. I've chatted with a few 2nd TR's, they feel the same way. I won't do the 2nd TR, so far the 1st is hard enough.

36 point build isnt worth it. Used too many tomes on 1st TR.

MrCow
01-13-2010, 11:37 AM
Yeah, good luck on ever seeing those kind of numbers.

Maybe on a capped sorc zerging the nuts out of quests. Maybe. Not possible with level appropriate characters outside of a couple 'good' quests.

If you include worthwhile optionals to hit then there are quite a few quests that can hit the 1000 EXP per minute marker. Some include:


Kobold's New Ringleader
Repossession (make sure to steal all 9 items and hit the pack master's room)
Halls of Shan-to-Kor
Ghost of a Chance (with solving the puzzle)
Ruined Halls (Hit Bram near the lever too)
Mirra's Sleepless Nights
Tangleroot parts 5a, 5b, and 6a
The Bounty Hunter
The Haunted Library (especially if you can pick the lock on the door, about a 3-5 minute quest then)
Tomb of the Shadow Knight
Necromancer's Lair
Shadow Crypt
Jungles of Khyber
Parts 2-5 of Cult of the Six
And the Dead Shall Rise
Chamber of Rahmat
Chamber of Kourush
Maraud the Mines
Dreams of Insanity
An Offering of Blood
Invaders
The Chamber of Raiyum
Trial by Fire
Feast or Famine
The Crucible
Desecrated Temple of Vol
Litany of the Dead
Rainbow in the Dark
Monastery of the Scorpion (primarily if you can sneak through)
Enter the Kobold (if you can take the heat at the end)
The Shipwrecked Spy
Mining for Ancient Secrets
Raiding the Giant's Vault
Reclaiming Memories
Sins of Attrition (for builds that can run to the exit and survive)


It is not likely that someone can maintain a 1000 EXP per minute ratio based on quest time, there are large sections of your EXP where it can be done with that amount of alacrity.

smatt
01-13-2010, 11:40 AM
Bah.. you can run Delaras and easily hit 60k per hour.. part 2 is worth about 17k the first time through on normal and hard with a 20% potion and a voice IF you do the optionals, which only take an extra 4 minutes tops.. a halfway decent 4 man can do part 1 in about 7-10 mins, then do part 2 3 times in a row, on normal, hard, then elite in about an hour and you will get an easy 60k.. and if you repeat part 2 and part 4 6 times each, you can net well over 150k xp in about 3 hours total time. During the holiday xp bonus I netted close to 200k xp doing this.. and even with down time and all it took me about 5 hours total. There are some areas you can do this sort of thing (threnal, necropolis, delaras to name a few), and burn through level 6-13 in very short order.

The problem is still post 15, where you no longer have a 15 minute quest that can net 15k xp.. I have seen TRs go to 15 in a few days, and heard about TRs that hit cap in a week, but it is work, not play. It is not a question of possible, but whether it's worth it.

There you hit it Riggs, is it really worth it? To a few maybe, I hate leveling toons... Jus tnot what I like to do, but I'd say for an old 28 poitn decked out toon like my main.. Sure it's well worth it the first time. And for SOME new builds sure it will really make them a lot better.. The 2nd time around.. I'd say that would only fit into a small catagory of desperate to be uber powergamers.... And I'm not saying that in a bad way either.... I see multiple TR's as only for that 2,3, or 5% of the population.... Setting the bar too low would create to large of a % of the population into more powerful characters and lead the inevitable over powering of mobs again... Then the non-multi TR'd toosn would struggle....

MrCow
01-13-2010, 01:43 PM
well technically there is.The reality is lvl 16 to 20 takes 100 times longer than 0-16

On my last True Reincarnation (12 Fighter/7 Rogue/1 Monk, mostly solo) the trek from 16-20 took me 50% of the time it took me to go 1-16. There are some marvelous quests for EXP in this range including Litany of the Dead, Rainbow in the Dark, Monastery of the Scorpion, and Enter the Kobold.


for the fact all the quests have the craptacular base xp of about 4000 if you exclude the vale (5 quests) and shavarath ( 5 quests) which leaves you the very desirable and time friendly option of capping slayers or run those gems in inspired quarter (joke of a name if there is one) or dreaming dark.

If you exclude all the level 14-17 quests that you can still get rather nice EXP from that is your decision, but you aren't limited to Inspired Quarters, Amrath, and Dreaming Dark. Even then, quests like Shipwrecked Spy, Dream Conspiracy, Mining for Ancient Secrets, Eye of the Titan, Sins of Attrition, Raiding the Giant's Vault, and Reclaiming Memories are in the ballpark of 700-1000 EXP per minute and soloable (or hireling in tow) by quite a few builds.


So,grind 300000 xp from 18 to 19 in those 3000xp quests and let us know how it goes.

I didn't find it too horrid, but I did 13 Monasteries and 5 or so Kobolds to net about half of the EXP for this part of the leveling (which was fine with me, I enjoy those quests quite a bit).

Spisey
01-14-2010, 04:10 AM
not To Worry, Next Month You'll Be Able To By A Completionest Toon For The Low Low Price Of 25,000 Tp's :d


In! ;):d

dragonofsteel
01-14-2010, 07:02 AM
"On my last True Reincarnation (12 Fighter/7 Rogue/1 Monk, mostly solo) the trek from 16-20 took me 50% of the time it took me to go 1-16. There are some marvelous quests for EXP in this range including Litany of the Dead, Rainbow in the Dark, Monastery of the Scorpion, and Enter the Kobold."

Makes my point just a grind everyone that wants to get the leveling done, will just do the same quest again and again. Do couple TR's in a row and be running the same quest again and again to max your xp per minute. Second choose to do all the quest add lot time to your leveling time. Is there good quest to do the xp, yes I can find enough. Does it still fill like a dumb grind "yes". Would I ever choose to do this with all classes for a the little extra benefit, "Hell no". Would it change it from a grind if they made the xp less, "no". Would I TR more if they lower the xp, giving them more income, "YES". To me comes down to this, yes some think the xp fine love it being little more time to do it, others like me think just another pointless time consuming grind that does not prove nothing. Oh wait it proves u spend countless hours leveling your guy, great skill in that :}.

Could I lvl TR in about 2 weeks for first time, yes but that is playing lot time on that one toon and having good players with me to make it happen. Could I lvl second TR in about 3 weeks the answer again is yes, but same as above. Lets say I do not have the players to make leveling go as quick as possible add another week to first TR, add another 1week or 2 for the second TR. Say your real life is busy add another 4 weeks for 1st TR, add another 5 weeks for second TR. Now talking about 4 to 6 months for both TR's. Lets say want to keep couple your high lvl toons raiding, add another couple months for the TR's it just becoming more and more of grind sorry.

Even at 1k per minute it would take u 51 to 52 hours game play for first TR and 71 to 72 hours for second TR. Realistic must will run at half this xp per minute because down time between quest and bad periods. 500 xp per minute to me is good, counting down time and other mishaps. so now its 102 to 104 hours for first TR and 142 to 144 for second. So if counting on xp pots to do this would be 17 pots for first and 24 for the second, bought from the store would be a nice 12095 points bought single use ones or 9700 to 9800 if buy the 5 use ones. So now basically add about 100 bucks for them potions to lvl.

Yes I have done the TR's without buying pots on the second TR on one toon almost done and the first with the other. Does the grind turn me off from doing this more often with toons, hell yes. So in turn something I might spent more on for the benefit is not going to happen, because rather just make new toon, because of the grind.

Now if you like this grind MrCow good for you, but do not try to convince me it is nothing but a dumb grind. Second I think the Tribune would benefit more by lowering the grind a little with more TR's but that up to them, they have to try keep from being to easy of grind to keep going good income and not to hard to keep peeps using it. This of course a balancing act and me and you just guessing were that needs to be.

Anderei
01-14-2010, 07:11 AM
If reducing the time for the second TR (which I think is a good idea), what about the players that done it already, wouldn't they feel betrayed?

Solution: Hand out XP tomes for the ones capped a 2nd TR already, Tomes of say 100k XP each they can apply to other toons or for their next reincarnation

Atenhotep
01-14-2010, 07:13 AM
Quick! Somebody call a whaaaaaambulance!!!

Bunker
01-14-2010, 07:24 AM
I might get in big trouble for revealing this, however.....Turbine and Logitech are currently working on a new USB Keyboard. They are going to add 1 additional button. Should come out sometime around the Holidays.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff288/bunkist2007/XP.jpg

Cripey
01-14-2010, 07:31 AM
I don't have issue with XP requirements for first and second TR. That being said, I don't think each consecutive TR after the 2nd should require the same XP amount as the 2nd TR.


I also don't think it should ever be set back to an non TR toon xp requirement. A happy medium would be nice.

Battleworm
01-14-2010, 07:33 AM
I don't have issue with XP requirements for first and second TR. That being said, I don't think each consecutive TR after the 2nd should require the same XP amount as the 2nd TR.


I also don't think it should ever be set back to an non TR toon xp requirement. A happy medium would be nice.



I have no problem with the xp required and never asked for an easy button.Maybe adjust the xp so that a lvl 20 quest actually gives more xp than a level 3 quest?How fun is it to hold back on levels and grind the same quest 10 times before moving on...and for each quest or just about.

zealous
01-14-2010, 07:57 AM
"On my last True Reincarnation (12 Fighter/7 Rogue/1 Monk, mostly solo) the trek from 16-20 took me 50% of the time it took me to go 1-16. There are some marvelous quests for EXP in this range including Litany of the Dead, Rainbow in the Dark, Monastery of the Scorpion, and Enter the Kobold."

Makes my point just a grind everyone that wants to get the leveling done, will just do the same quest again and again. Do couple TR's in a row and be running the same quest again and again to max your xp per minute. Second choose to do all the quest add lot time to your leveling time. Is there good quest to do the xp, yes I can find enough. Does it still fill like a dumb grind "yes". Would I ever choose to do this with all classes for a the little extra benefit, "Hell no". Would it change it from a grind if they made the xp less, "no". Would I TR more if they lower the xp, giving them more income, "YES". To me comes down to this, yes some think the xp fine love it being little more time to do it, others like me think just another pointless time consuming grind that does not prove nothing. Oh wait it proves u spend countless hours leveling your guy, great skill in that :}.

Could I lvl TR in about 2 weeks for first time, yes but that is playing lot time on that one toon and having good players with me to make it happen. Could I lvl second TR in about 3 weeks the answer again is yes, but same as above. Lets say I do not have the players to make leveling go as quick as possible add another week to first TR, add another 1week or 2 for the second TR. Say your real life is busy add another 4 weeks for 1st TR, add another 5 weeks for second TR. Now talking about 4 to 6 months for both TR's. Lets say want to keep couple your high lvl toons raiding, add another couple months for the TR's it just becoming more and more of grind sorry.

Even at 1k per minute it would take u 51 to 52 hours game play for first TR and 71 to 72 hours for second TR. Realistic must will run at half this xp per minute because down time between quest and bad periods. 500 xp per minute to me is good, counting down time and other mishaps. so now its 102 to 104 hours for first TR and 142 to 144 for second. So if counting on xp pots to do this would be 17 pots for first and 24 for the second, bought from the store would be a nice 12095 points bought single use ones or 9700 to 9800 if buy the 5 use ones. So now basically add about 100 bucks for them potions to lvl.

Yes I have done the TR's without buying pots on the second TR on one toon almost done and the first with the other. Does the grind turn me off from doing this more often with toons, hell yes. So in turn something I might spent more on for the benefit is not going to happen, because rather just make new toon, because of the grind.

Now if you like this grind MrCow good for you, but do not try to convince me it is nothing but a dumb grind. Second I think the Tribune would benefit more by lowering the grind a little with more TR's but that up to them, they have to try keep from being to easy of grind to keep going good income and not to hard to keep peeps using it. This of course a balancing act and me and you just guessing were that needs to be.
And if just want to get it over quickly you can have it done in a day/TR.

Your choice to do it, your choice how to do it.

It will always be a grind for someone, and if it isn't aboot zse grind then it's about the moolah.

If the cost, time and effort wasn't sufficiently large, more people would do it. If more people would do it more times the discrepancies between vets and newbs would increase further. The discrepancies are large enough as it is imo and the effects not "healthy" for content development, i.e. compare inspired to the epics, how many people really really like both, how many doesn't like any of them? :) (well/there/are/other/issues/too/but/well/...)

zealous
01-14-2010, 08:02 AM
If reducing the time for the second TR (which I think is a good idea), what about the players that done it already, wouldn't they feel betrayed?

Solution: Hand out XP tomes for the ones capped a 2nd TR already, Tomes of say 100k XP each they can apply to other toons or for their next reincarnation
Or...make those XP tomes possible to purchase with epic completion tokens or something similar, BTA. That way those who primarily wants to play with their friends at cap, who find releveling a TR a painful grind as opposed to having the pleasure to level at a slower pace, can have a alternative way for releveling TRs.

Halock
01-14-2010, 10:27 AM
The problem with the second reinc is the 15-> 20 area, xp in goes down, and exp needed skyrockets.

You need more xp to get from 15 to 20 (2.3ish million )than a regular character needs to get from 1 to 20 (1.9ish Million ), yet you have less than a quarter of the quests available to you.

I think the second reinc is too much xp personally, or, if their hellbent on keeping it at that level, allow people on their second and subsequent reincs to reinc before capping, maybe level 18 ( thats as much xp as a first reinc needs to cap ) that way if they want to cap the character it takes the full 4.3 mil, if their just leveling the character for past life bonuses it takes the edge off a little.

I have no plans for completionist, but there are alot of past lifes i would like to have, whereas i think 4.3 mil xp is too much, 3.1mil seems reasonable.

Just my 2c

HeavenlyCloud
01-14-2010, 10:50 AM
The problem is not the 4.3 million for second TR, the problem is 2.3 million needed from 15-20.

Battleworm
01-14-2010, 02:00 PM
The problem is not the 4.3 million for second TR, the problem is 2.3 million needed from 15-20.

And the little amount of quests to get that from.

Anderei
01-14-2010, 02:18 PM
I think they got it, lets suppose/hope the next level pack will be lvl 16-19 and with decent XP not 3000something.

MystDragon
01-14-2010, 02:42 PM
This thread brought up an interesting question for me....

Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen any threads that are a tip guide for powerleveling/maxing XP?

bobbryan2
01-14-2010, 06:29 PM
This thread brought up an interesting question for me....

Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen any threads that are a tip guide for powerleveling/maxing XP?

Run Normal/n/n/n/n/n/n/n/n/n/h/e if you want to maximize xp. That's part of the problem with true reincarnates and how DDO works. If you run hard or elite before you've run normal into the ground, you're wasting xp.

Other than that, just make sure you're 1 level above the quest level, no more, no less.

ryingar
01-14-2010, 09:36 PM
Why do all the new quests have garbage xp?

Actually all the new quests have great exp when compared to the amount of time to complete them.

Gimpinator
01-15-2010, 06:00 AM
I couldn't even stomach reading all this CRUD before finally devoting some time to becoming a registered forum user. Thank god you whiners were never early EQ players!

On an opinionated, mostly related note; Why would you TR a toon who hasn't even obtained a "useful" amount of end-game gear, or, thought out and planned your future grind by picking up some items you might not have? If you're planning to instantly "TR" a character (again), why would you make him a solid strength build? You're going to run three shrouds and jump right back into it like every other person out there.. Make it easier on yourself and plan a toon that might be more solo-friendly, and zerg those damn quests like a champ! Chug a POT and make it efficient.

I won't be responding.

Efficient: Performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort; Having and using requisite knowledge, skill and industry. Competent. Capable. Reliable.

Edited for friendly viewing. :-)

Bunker
01-15-2010, 06:19 AM
Run Normal/n/n/n/n/n/n/n/n/n/h/e if you want to maximize xp. That's part of the problem with true reincarnates and how DDO works. If you run hard or elite before you've run normal into the ground, you're wasting xp.

Other than that, just make sure you're 1 level above the quest level, no more, no less.

This is not required of most if not all quests to cap. There is plenty of xp in the game.

TheJusticar
01-15-2010, 10:16 AM
i look at is as 1st cap 1.9 mill. 2nd 3.1 mil 3rd 4.4 mill =9.4 mill so 9 mill is not far off the mark. ( still ridiculous)

I think it would be much better if they would've put an XP penalty on the overall XP (pro-rata) as opposed to on a per-level stacking basis.

For instance, first TR Normal XP + 25% (2,375,000 XP or so) and then second TR and all after that XP for first TR + 50% (3,562,500 XP) Now those numbers are still pretty big, but are much more reasonable.

Godspeed.

Battleworm
01-15-2010, 10:18 AM
I couldn't even stomach reading all this CRUD before finally devoting some time to becoming a registered forum user. Thank god you whiners were never early EQ players!

On an opinionated, mostly related note; Why would you TR a toon who hasn't even obtained a "useful" amount of end-game gear, or, thought out and planned your future grind by picking up some items you might not have? If you're planning to instantly "TR" a character (again), why would you make him a solid strength build? You're going to run three shrouds and jump right back into it like every other person out there.. Make it easier on yourself and plan a toon that might be more solo-friendly, and zerg those damn quests like a champ! Chug a POT and make it efficient.

I won't be responding.

Efficient: Performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort; Having and using requisite knowledge, skill and industry. Competent. Capable. Reliable.

Edited for friendly viewing. :-)

Have you ever leveled out of the harbor?You have no clue what you are talking about.

TheJusticar
01-15-2010, 10:39 AM
Have you ever leveled out of the harbor?You have no clue what you are talking about.

I'm usually weary of people who post and then say they won't be responding. It usually means the person either has an indefensible opinion or just a troll flame-baiting.

Godspeed.

Shaamis
01-15-2010, 11:12 AM
The problem is not the 4.3 million for second TR, the problem is 2.3 million needed from 15-20.


I have found out that a little due diligence is going a long way for Shaamis.

I have been doing the quests at my level and below, up to elite, and I'm 10th level , and barely got out of the Marketplace.

I still have never done a Tempest Spine Run, havent done Co6,on hard or elite yet, havent touched Threnal, havent even done Gwyland's Stand at all yet...

I've donr Von 1-3 on normal.

I have a TON to do before I even consider stepping into Gianthold.

I think that if due diligence is done, you can save all of the higher level "XP runs" until you have run out of lower level quests to run.

HumanJHawkins
01-15-2010, 04:33 PM
Capping a TR is a matter of a week of hardcore leveling. A 2xTR is maybe 2 weeks. So if you don't play it hardcore, maybe twice that time.

Care to put that in play-hours rather than weeks? Or, a better question: How much fun play time does it take (in hours) where you are enjoying what you are doing (including if you enjoy zerging, etc, but not including if you are bored but just need to run it one more time before moving on to the next quest to maximize XP gain)?

Shaamis
01-19-2010, 06:11 AM
Care to put that in play-hours rather than weeks? Or, a better question: How much fun play time does it take (in hours) where you are enjoying what you are doing (including if you enjoy zerging, etc, but not including if you are bored but just need to run it one more time before moving on to the next quest to maximize XP gain)?

I play for the fun, and I play with our new guild mates we have found since mod 9.

I TR'ed in december, so it's been a month, and I'm only getting close to level 12, I must not be hardcore

In defense of Clay (not that he needs any :p) however, definition of hardcore leveling in my mind is: plan of which adventure, when, with full guild resources available, and standing by to assist. As soon as you level up, handing off old gear, and getting new gear appropriate to level, and getting right back into it. No AH, no favor, just Pure XP running.

If you had a whole guild assisting you with which quest to run, at what time, gear to swap in/out when you leveled, and assistance with zerging each quest, you can do it in the time stated.

Just make sure you look up to see if you still have a wife/GF/job every once in a while.

TheJusticar
01-19-2010, 08:47 AM
If you had a whole guild assisting you with which quest to run, at what time, gear to swap in/out when you leveled, and assistance with zerging each quest, you can do it in the time stated.

Just make sure you look up to see if you still have a wife/GF/job every once in a while.

Therein the problem. And a big problem at that. Not everyone belongs to a guild. Many of us who have been unguilded for years but have created in-game network it still hard. My Pally 1st TR is at lvl11 right now. And it's hard to find willing, knowledgeable groups reliably. I don't foresee capping this toon until sometime early summer (that's @ 3 hours/night most of which is spent finding groups/getting groups together).

Godspeed.

Shaamis
01-19-2010, 09:55 AM
Therein the problem. And a big problem at that. Not everyone belongs to a guild. Many of us who have been unguilded for years but have created in-game network it still hard. My Pally 1st TR is at lvl11 right now. And it's hard to find willing, knowledgeable groups reliably. I don't foresee capping this toon until sometime early summer (that's @ 3 hours/night most of which is spent finding groups/getting groups together).

Godspeed.

Well, I am level 11.3 right now, plan on doing Threnal up to elite tonight, you are welcome to join. I might even be able to get east-3 on elite.

Tin_Dragon
01-20-2010, 06:45 AM
The xp required for the first but even moreso the 2nd true reincarnate needs to be toned down considerably.

There is always a balance between grind and reward. Get that balance right and you can keep people hooked on a game for a long, long time. The Shroud is a perfect example of a part of the game that kept people going for a long, long time doing the same thing because the reward was balanced correctly.

I had decided to take one of my characters and double reincarnate him to make a very capable battlemage. I am only level 14 of the first reincarnate and never have I been more bored with this game. Now I read that the final xp required on the 2nd reincarnate is like 9 million? Ridiculous.

The XP required should be like 3 mill on first one and maybe 4.5 mill on second reincarnate. This is still the total xp required to level almost 4 regular characters. During the entire time you are 1) not spending time with all of your high level friends and 2) not accumulating raid loot that would make your character as powerful if not more powerful than the meager reward for reincarnating.

Anyways I needed to state my piece. Everytime I log onto my reincarnate I end up playing Dragon Age Origins.

V

my knee jerk reaction is to agree.

But even I, after 3+ seconds of thought, must say, no, its fine.

I have had fun running my TRd toon, I look forward to completionist (some day) the fact that you cant simply do the same old grind, and see more content leveling up, that I normally ignore, is kind of fun.

YEs, its a LONGER slower grind, but hey. My guildies are starting to TR now too, so we are having a bit of fun, doing some of the quests we ignored at earlier levels. I have to say, this was NOT Turbines worst idea, its among the better

cheever77
01-20-2010, 07:54 AM
I have just leveled my first TR to 17. The "grind" was boring to a point. I havent run alot of quests, but i did burn out xp in a lot of quests. deleras, tear, gwylans, stormcleave. You get the idea.... I did say @ about level 12 that I wouldn't do it again.. Well I was wrong. I am now working my fighter to level 20, not to mention 20 raid completions. Can't wait to start over. Got into a great guild(was in one and joined another)who are doing multiple Tr's. Aiming to have 5-6 ppl Tring at the same time. Are we power/hardcore levelers?? Well to some extent. Our leader uses pots instead of shrines, I have got to that point at times too. Will I do a second TR?? Not on a healer type but as a tank maybe.

smatt
01-20-2010, 01:57 PM
I love people saying stuff like this because i know they don't grasp how long it is to cap slayers in wilderness area...Do you have any idea of how long it takes to get 5000 shavarath and lamannians in meridia?


Well there's around 220 of each depending on the bat and spider nest spawns per instance so.....

TheJusticar
01-20-2010, 02:04 PM
Well there's around 220 of each depending on the bat and spider nest spawns per instance so.....

Well it takes about 20-30 minutes to clean the whole zone duoing (with casters) -- which is the easiest and fastest way due to Dungeon Scaling. You could perhaps do it in 15 minutes with a good trio. 15 minutes x 25 runs you're talking about 5.5 hours of play time (not counting bio/afk breaks). That's about 3 grindy days for a person logging for 2-3 hours/night. Doable but extremely annoying.

Bunker
01-20-2010, 02:33 PM
......I have reached just over 2.3 million xp on Mothergoose. He is a 2 time TR going to the 4.3 (and change) mil. mark.

My original thought still stands, that there is plenty of XP in the game to reach cap on a 2x TR. There is no need to bleed every quest 10+ times on normal to reach the neccessary xp for each level. To say whether it is faster or slower, I will leave to each induvidual.

Mothergoose is currently lvl 15. I have enough xp to go to 16 but am holding back leveling till I have to. As most of you know, you are capable of gaining xp up to 2 levels, but as you reach that second level, you must go to the trainer. As I have noticed, there is a great deal of quests in the 8-12 lvl range that give a wonderous amount of xp. IMO, almost better then the group of quests from 13-20. Perhaps it has to do with the narrow gap leveling up a character at mid levels as compared to 17-20 gaps of around 500k.

At this point, Goose has done all but 5 or 6 quests thru level 12 on Elite. I ran 3 lvl 13 quests once on normal. And I'm just over 2.3 million xp. That leaves most of lvl 13 and everything else up to the lvl 20 raid which includes:

Gianthold - including Tor & Reaver
Orchard - including LotD & AC
Vale - including Shroud
Subterrane
Reaver Refuge
Amrath
Inspiration Quarter & Dreaming Dark
plus all the slayer/explorer/rares in those areas

Will that be enough for the other 2 million I need to cap? That is, will that be enough to reach cap without having to run each quest more then once on N/H/E?

I personally am not having any issues with leveling Mothergoose. I do feel that it is a lot of XP. Is it too much? IMO, I'm not sure it is. I can see where the average gamer would agree that it is TOO MUCH. For those that venture to play more then 20 hours a week, it doesn't seem all that bad. I cannot say what it will be like for those that wish to reach Completionist. I have no plans to ever TR Goose again. Perhaps a lesser or greater pending future PrE requirements, but as for TR, not at this time.

I will say one thing for certain, if you wish to TR, do it with at least 1 friend/guildie. The journey no matter how long or short, should be traveled together.

Battleworm
01-20-2010, 02:45 PM
......I have reached just over 2.3 million xp on Mothergoose. He is a 2 time TR going to the 4.3 (and change) mil. mark.

My original thought still stands, that there is plenty of XP in the game to reach cap on a 2x TR. There is no need to bleed every quest 10+ times on normal to reach the neccessary xp for each level. To say whether it is faster or slower, I will leave to each induvidual.

Mothergoose is currently lvl 15. I have enough xp to go to 16 but am holding back leveling till I have to. As most of you know, you are capable of gaining xp up to 2 levels, but as you reach that second level, you must go to the trainer. As I have noticed, there is a great deal of quests in the 8-12 lvl range that give a wonderous amount of xp. IMO, almost better then the group of quests from 13-20. Perhaps it has to do with the narrow gap leveling up a character at mid levels as compared to 17-20 gaps of around 500k.

At this point, Goose has done all but 5 or 6 quests thru level 12 on Elite. I ran 3 lvl 13 quests once on normal. And I'm just over 2.3 million xp. That leaves most of lvl 13 and everything else up to the lvl 20 raid which includes:

Gianthold - including Tor & Reaver
Orchard - including LotD & AC
Vale - including Shroud
Subterrane
Reaver Refuge
Amrath
Inspiration Quarter & Dreaming Dark
plus all the slayer/explorer/rares in those areas

Will that be enough for the other 2 million I need to cap? That is, will that be enough to reach cap without having to run each quest more then once on N/H/E?

I personally am not having any issues with leveling Mothergoose. I do feel that it is a lot of XP. Is it too much? IMO, I'm not sure it is. I can see where the average gamer would agree that it is TOO MUCH. For those that venture to play more then 20 hours a week, it doesn't seem all that bad. I cannot say what it will be like for those that wish to reach Completionist. I have no plans to ever TR Goose again. Perhaps a lesser or greater pending future PrE requirements, but as for TR, not at this time.

I will say one thing for certain, if you wish to TR, do it with at least 1 friend/guildie. The journey no matter how long or short, should be traveled together.

because friends don't let friends solo :D

Daigaioh
01-20-2010, 07:44 PM
Yup.I said in another thread that it's ******** a lvl 8 quest (shadow crypt) is the best xp in the whole game.



VON 3 would take that award.

Bunker
01-20-2010, 10:42 PM
VON 3 would take that award.

Wizard King! (aside from it not being lvl 8)

reading comp /fail