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View Full Version : Feature Request: Detect Secret Door Nerf.



Bogenbroom
01-11-2010, 03:44 PM
Okay, I am sure this won't be popular, but it has always struck me as wrong that a first level spell, readily available on clickies the world over, makes a basic core function of the rogue and ranger classes obsolete.

Beyond making the need to search for secret doors obsolete, it is actually significantly more effective and quick than actually searching. Pet peeve of mine, sitting there, searching with my rogue and some damned bard whips his DSD wand and spots it. Don't know why it bugs me, but it does. Probably the same reason it annoys melees when they pound something down to 5% and a sorc polar rays it dead.

I would suggest having Detect Secret Doors (and True Seeing for that matter) function like like Find Traps, and give a bonus to the search skill when searching for secret doors.

WeaselKing
01-11-2010, 03:48 PM
I would rather just see rogues be able to detect the door with their spot skill assuming it is maybe 5 more than the required search skill to find it, I would want this to be a rogue class feature only though.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-11-2010, 03:48 PM
No, that's how the spell is supposed to work. There are more clickies than you would expect in D&D but there are more of every clickie.

As for "core function". If you think that's a core function of either a rogue or ranger you don't understand the function of a rogue or ranger.

Laith
01-11-2010, 03:48 PM
personally, i think secret door detection should just be sped up for rogues... or even made passive at high levels (passivity or search time could depend on rogue search/spot skill vs. door DC).

Samadhi
01-11-2010, 03:49 PM
While I can see your point, I think a better solution would be to just remove/shorten the rather lengthy search animation, maybe even make it automatic like spot (but not if this would cause lag!!)

Cedwin
01-11-2010, 03:49 PM
I would suggest having Detect Secret Doors (and True Seeing for that matter) function like like Find Traps, and give a bonus to the search skill when searching for secret doors.

Or modify secret doors to show up according to your search (spot maybe?) skill.. or just make the stupid search faster, I don't need to look around for 10 seconds when I can just use a clicky and instantly find it.

Bogenbroom
01-11-2010, 03:55 PM
No, that's how the spell is supposed to work. There are more clickies than you would expect in D&D but there are more of every clickie.

As for "core function". If you think that's a core function of either a rogue or ranger you don't understand the function of a rogue or ranger.

Of course that's how the spell is *supposed* to work but it is out of whack with the game, in the same was invisibility was out of whack so they made the same basic change to it.

And I am not sure how you could possibly say that the ability to detect hidden things is *not* a core function of either a rogue or a ranger. In different environments it is one of the basic concepts of the class... the ability to find dangers in dungeons/wilderness. Yes that is what spot is for in game, and I like WeaselKing's idea, but to say rogues and rangers aren't supposed to be finding things is, well, odd...

Lorien_the_First_One
01-11-2010, 03:59 PM
Of course that's how the spell is *supposed* to work but it is out of whack with the game, in the same was invisibility was out of whack so they made the same basic change to it.

And I am not sure how you could possibly say that the ability to detect hidden things is *not* a core function of either a rogue or a ranger. In different environments it is one of the basic concepts of the class... the ability to find dangers in dungeons/wilderness. Yes that is what spot is for in game, and I like WeaselKing's idea, but to say rogues and rangers aren't supposed to be finding things is, well, odd...

Lots of classes can get a high spot and search, no big deal.

Finding secret doors can be done by multiple people, its only disabling that is unique to rogues. Even then, it is not the most important thing they do by a long shot. Their core ability is killing things.

Thriand
01-11-2010, 04:03 PM
class skill does not equal core function

Laith
01-11-2010, 04:03 PM
Finding secret doors can be done by multiple people, its only disabling that is unique to rogues. Even then, it is not the most important thing they do by a long shot. Their core ability is killing things.even then, it's only unique to anyone with 1 level of rogue.

IMO, people need to stop defining classes by abilities they get in the first 2-3 levels. Any ability granted early on can easily be utilized by other classes.

of course, "absolute" protection/success spells have been a problem with D&D since its inception (and clickies make the situation worse). As far as DDO is concerned though, i figure rogue slowness is the real problem that needs fixing.

Impaqt
01-11-2010, 04:13 PM
Okay, I am sure this won't be popular, but it has always struck me as wrong that a first level spell, readily available on clickies the world over, makes a basic core function of the rogue and ranger classes obsolete.

Beyond making the need to search for secret doors obsolete, it is actually significantly more effective and quick than actually searching. Pet peeve of mine, sitting there, searching with my rogue and some damned bard whips his DSD wand and spots it. Don't know why it bugs me, but it does. Probably the same reason it annoys melees when they pound something down to 5% and a sorc polar rays it dead.

I would suggest having Detect Secret Doors (and True Seeing for that matter) function like like Find Traps, and give a bonus to the search skill when searching for secret doors.

if you think finding secret doors is a core function of a rogue, your doing it wrong.

muffinlad
01-11-2010, 04:20 PM
Okay, I am sure this won't be popular, but it has always struck me as wrong that a first level spell, readily available on clickies the world over, makes a basic core function of the rogue and ranger classes obsolete.

Beyond making the need to search for secret doors obsolete, it is actually significantly more effective and quick than actually searching. Pet peeve of mine, sitting there, searching with my rogue and some damned bard whips his DSD wand and spots it. Don't know why it bugs me, but it does. Probably the same reason it annoys melees when they pound something down to 5% and a sorc polar rays it dead.

I would suggest having Detect Secret Doors (and True Seeing for that matter) function like like Find Traps, and give a bonus to the search skill when searching for secret doors.

Don't make existing items worse, make existing poor abilites better.

As suggested by others, make the Spot skill simply reveal the doors if they hit a number. Further, have it work for trap boxes as well. Speed of animation for search is too slow/takes too long, etc. Reward the rogue for their investment, don't reduce the investment or luck of others.

muffinrogue

Draccus
01-11-2010, 04:21 PM
Today we salute you, Mr. Hypersensitive Trap-focused Rogue!

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=190355

Steveem
01-11-2010, 04:22 PM
no.

cdbd3rd
01-11-2010, 04:28 PM
Gotta join the admendments team and suggest a shortened Search animation rather than killing a stabile WAI spell.
Disagree on auto-detect, but certainly shorten the wait.

Quikster
01-11-2010, 04:34 PM
Okay, I am sure this won't be popular, but it has always struck me as wrong that a first level spell, readily available on clickies the world over, makes a basic core function of the rogue and ranger classes obsolete.

Beyond making the need to search for secret doors obsolete, it is actually significantly more effective and quick than actually searching. Pet peeve of mine, sitting there, searching with my rogue and some damned bard whips his DSD wand and spots it. Don't know why it bugs me, but it does. Probably the same reason it annoys melees when they pound something down to 5% and a sorc polar rays it dead.

I would suggest having Detect Secret Doors (and True Seeing for that matter) function like like Find Traps, and give a bonus to the search skill when searching for secret doors.


A better solution would be to start carrying detect secret door clickies on your rogue :)

Anderei
01-11-2010, 05:17 PM
I would rather just see rogues be able to detect the door with their spot skill assuming it is maybe 5 more than the required search skill to find it, I would want this to be a rogue class feature only though.

This! Actually I think its okay if spot hits the required search skill, as search is something you'd much more maximize out as rogue.

Alternative Idea, make it so when the search skill hits the door +5 it auto-detects without hitting the search button / animation.

Hakushi
01-11-2010, 07:42 PM
I understand the concerns of the OP, it always bugged me too that while searching with my rogue, anyone could use a DST clicky and find the door, and I wasn't finished searching. The real problem is not the spell but the desperately slow animation of search especially for finding doors. I go with what a lot already posted, if your Search/Spot is 5 points or higher than the door, it should pop automaticaly. The search animation duration should also be reduced because enev when searching for traps, it just takes forever and everyone else is waiting. This is another reason why people regularly run through traps and ignore them, or the rogue ends up alone far behind the party disabling traps. A shortened animation would be a good thing.

Mhykke
01-11-2010, 08:19 PM
nah

Talon_Moonshadow
01-12-2010, 06:50 AM
My Rogue uses a wand of Detect Secret Doors. :cool:




(Actually she now has Tharne's Goggles.)

Bogenbroom
01-12-2010, 07:32 AM
if you think finding secret doors is a core function of a rogue, your doing it wrong.

I mean in fantasy lore/PnP, not in DDO. Obviously that is not the case since a first level arcane spell does it better than any rogue.

Several people have mentioned things/ways to address this discrepancy from the other end... speeding up the search animation, auto detect on a spot significantly over the search difficulty of the door, etc. All very good ideas. On that line, auto-rolling a search on a successful spot, sans animation, might be a good way to go. Heck, maybe make it a free feat for rogues/rangers (say level 4/8) to auto-search on successful spot. All of that would be fine for pumping up the detectors to match the clickie/spell/wand users. Additionally, it would be more in line with the speed of the game than what I suggested.

Re: the spell, though... it has been suggested that it is working properly. That isn't the case. Using detect secret doors it is supposed to take you at least three rounds to figure out how to open a secret door. Initially you are supposed to be able to identify the existence of secret doors in the direction you are facing... while standing still and concentrating. During the second round you can identify the location of each secret door, again, in the direction you are facing only. Not until the third round of continued concentration can you figure out how to actually *open* the door. And even then, only 1 door per round. So, based on the 3.5 description I can find, the DDO interpretation is *significantly* more effective than its source material. While I have no huge urge to turn up the speed of the game any more than it already is, I certainly wouldn't want to slow it down that much.

What I originally suggested was with a desire to avoid pumping up one thing to compensate for another thing that is too powerful... and largely a reaction to the game continuing to get easier and easier. Probably not the way to go though.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-12-2010, 07:35 AM
As suggested by others, make the Spot skill simply reveal the doors if they hit a number.

Per D&D rules, spot should be able to auto-spot secret doors and traps without a search if they hit hte DC (for example traps should have both a search DC and a spot one). This would indeed make spot more useful to rogues, and every other class that takes spot.

The search animation should also be make MUCH quicker


A better solution would be to start carrying detect secret door clickies on your rogue :)

I do :D

Battleworm
01-12-2010, 07:36 AM
Okay, I am sure this won't be popular, but it has always struck me as wrong that a first level spell, readily available on clickies the world over, makes a basic core function of the rogue and ranger classes obsolete.

Beyond making the need to search for secret doors obsolete, it is actually significantly more effective and quick than actually searching. Pet peeve of mine, sitting there, searching with my rogue and some damned bard whips his DSD wand and spots it. Don't know why it bugs me, but it does. Probably the same reason it annoys melees when they pound something down to 5% and a sorc polar rays it dead.

I would suggest having Detect Secret Doors (and True Seeing for that matter) function like like Find Traps, and give a bonus to the search skill when searching for secret doors.

They should just remove every wall at this point right?

Shade
01-12-2010, 07:42 AM
I think the duration could be severely reduced or removed entirely and made an instant spell..

I mean in PnP it's not some kinda permanent buff like it tends to be in DDO. You have to spend several rounds of effort to make it work..

So a duration nerf to something like 6 seconds + 1 per caster level could work. Or no duration and just be instant to reveal a door once your somewhat certain of the location.

Just shouldn't work as a automatic 40minuit buff of negate spot skill like it is now. Trueseeing being a much higher lvl spell gets that ability, a lvl1 spell shouldn't.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-12-2010, 07:47 AM
I mean in fantasy lore/PnP, not in DDO. Obviously that is not the case since a first level arcane spell does it better than any rogue.

You are wrong in D&D too. In D&D/PnP a rogue's primary job is killing, opening stuff is a bonus. Most locks in D&D can be smashed into, doors broken down, etc. Unless on a stealth mission, your barbarian can be your lockpick in a pinch. In addition, in D&D the level 1 knock is more powerful than ANY rogue as it can open any lock or seal, including ones rogues can't. You must be thinking back to first edition where they were "thieves" not rogues (and of course even back then Monk's could do 100% of a theive's theifing job).



Re: the spell, though... it has been suggested that it is working properly. That isn't the case. Using detect secret doors it is supposed to take you at least three rounds to figure out how to open a secret door. .

Everything is faster in DDO. For exaple, a rogue should take 1 full round to search a 5x5 space. In that full round in this game we get a good 30 ft radius, and can search through walls. So if you are arguing to go by the book for timing, we need to massively slow the rogue search skill and only detect things you are standing exactly next to/on top of.

KKDragonLord
01-12-2010, 07:55 AM
Use a Detect door clickie on your Rogue/Ranger, its faster, you'll like it.

Solved.

The idea is finding the door, doesn't matter who does it or how.

making it slower is a bad thing not a good one.

Letrii
01-12-2010, 08:00 AM
In D&D, any class can find secret doors/traps and disable traps. The only caveat is only classes with trapfinding ability can disable traps with DC above 20.

Therilith
01-12-2010, 08:27 AM
I agree.

It always bothered me that a 1st level spell was better at finding secret doors than a level 20 rogue with max ranks in search.

Also, saying a suggestion is bad because "DON'T WANNA!" is not exactly a great argument. Being opposed to something that makes your character weaker or your characters opponents stronger is perfectly reasonable, but if every change made players stronger and monsters weaker because all other ideas were rejected as "making things more difficult; therefore bad" pretty soon we wouldn't have any game left.

Bogenbroom
01-12-2010, 09:53 AM
You are wrong in D&D too. In D&D/PnP a rogue's primary job is killing, opening stuff is a bonus. Most locks in D&D can be smashed into, doors broken down, etc. Unless on a stealth mission, your barbarian can be your lockpick in a pinch. In addition, in D&D the level 1 knock is more powerful than ANY rogue as it can open any lock or seal, including ones rogues can't. You must be thinking back to first edition where they were "thieves" not rogues (and of course even back then Monk's could do 100% of a theive's theifing job).

That is probably spot on. My PnP experience is all first edition, so yes, I fully admit I come at it with that perspective of a rogue/thief. Regarding Knock, though... that is the same thing I am saying with DSD. In DDO Knock was modified in a way that prevented rogue's abilities in that area from becoming moot. I would be thrilled if DSD worked exactly the same way as Knock. Not at all what I was suggesting, but I think it would be a fine way to go.


Everything is faster in DDO. For example, a rogue should take 1 full round to search a 5x5 space. In that full round in this game we get a good 30 ft radius, and can search through walls. So if you are arguing to go by the book for timing, we need to massively slow the rogue search skill and only detect things you are standing exactly next to/on top of.

See, that is half of what I was getting at... the timing on one is instantaneous, whereas on the other is more or less accurate. The range on both is pooched.

Frankly, in the end, I don't really care how it was approached, I would just like to see something done so secret doors, and the ability to detect them, were not so out of whack.

hcarr
01-12-2010, 09:57 AM
On my rogue I just skip the stupid door and go kill something or do something else let the piker with the pack of clickies get it. Let them feal useful.

Gadget2775
01-12-2010, 10:20 AM
I like the idea of a auto Spot/Search combo (A Listen/Search combo would also make sense...). Wouldn't think it'd take to much to modify the current implementation. Spot already does most of what's needed by telling us where/when to look for hidden objects. Script a single shot animation free search whenever the Spot goes off and yer set. If they miss it the Search item goes on and the can manually trigger the search again.

Anderei
01-12-2010, 03:16 PM
I like the idea of a auto Spot/Search combo (A Listen/Search combo would also make sense...). Wouldn't think it'd take to much to modify the current implementation. Spot already does most of what's needed by telling us where/when to look for hidden objects. Script a single shot animation free search whenever the Spot goes off and yer set. If they miss it the Search item goes on and the can manually trigger the search again.

Yup, good idea. whenever spot goes off a search skill check should be done at the same time (without animation!), when successful doors&traps become visible (and you get a message, your fine senses discovered a secret door/trap), if not you get the message "your fine senses make you feel there is something hidden here, but you cannot make it out". If spot does not go off, you can still hit the search key, get that animation, and uncover doors/traps. Or if search failed, and you switch your spoit item with your search item, then hit search.

KKDragonLord
01-12-2010, 03:18 PM
Yup, good idea. whenever spot goes off a search skill check should be done at the same time (without animation!), when successful doors&traps become visible (and you get a message, your fine senses discovered a secret door/trap), if not you get the message "your fine senses make you feel there is something hidden here, but you cannot make it out". If spot does not go off, you can still hit the search key, get that animation, and uncover doors/traps. Or if search failed, and you switch your spoit item with your search item, then hit search.

Now there is a suggestion i can get behind.

/signed

I wouldnt even mind limiting Detect Secret doors by caster level, as it is with Knock.

JOTMON
01-12-2010, 03:23 PM
The search function for findinng secret doors does take too long.
It wasnt long before i just got myself a clickie on my rogue of detect secret doors.
Then I got the Intricate Field Optics( automatic sectet door detection).
Now I run with Tharnes.

I am a believer that The search function takes too long, and that If you are 5 or 10 points over on the ability to findi it, It should pop up without searching), same with finding traps.

Superspeed_Hi5
01-12-2010, 03:52 PM
To the OP - Thats just magic for you. It makes everything better, like casting GH on a Rogue so they can actually disable the device you just found.

In the end it doesnt matter who finds the secret door, and apparently you dont even need to open them to get the bonus xp just find them.

To me this just sounds like professional jealousy. OMG that wizard is so much better than me I hates him must make sure he cant find useless secret doors. Seriously dude grow up. In PnP it takes forever to search a hallway to make it clear. Is that how you want it to function? Where if you arent standing exactly where you need to be you cant find the box? Or do you want to get your loot, xp, and move on to the next challenge. I vote XP & loot please.

Solostoran
01-12-2010, 03:55 PM
A better solution would be to start carrying detect secret door clickies on your rogue :)

Done and done :)

Kalari
01-12-2010, 04:09 PM
I agree with Lorien if it was a "core" feature they would not offer it to every class even at a point limit (via cross class). I think the ability to spot a secret door is something that benefits any class and if they work on it with the spell, bother to carry a clickie or even put points into spot should benefit from finding hidden doors. In pen and paper if you bothered with spot you got to roll a spot check no matter what the class you were at least in games I partook in. So I dont feel this change is needed but this is just my opinion.

Giraffie
01-13-2010, 12:07 AM
Lots of classes can get a high spot and search, no big deal.

Finding secret doors can be done by multiple people, its only disabling that is unique to rogues. Even then, it is not the most important thing they do by a long shot. Their core ability is killing things.


I get really annoyed when I invite a Rogue to the group and, upon getting into an instance and reaching the first hidden door/trap, hearing them say, "Uh, I don't have high enough search/lock picking/disable device." I'd rather bring in a rogue that did wimpy DPS and could disable a trap than have just another DPSer.