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View Full Version : Forget Kill count, I want a DPS meter



CheapToad1
01-09-2010, 07:17 PM
You can be a terrible dps'er and just manage to get the last hit. I feel Kill count is missleading. I want to know who has high dps when I make my group.

If DDO had a DPS meter then the stats can be posted on the forums per server (braging rights).

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 07:50 PM
/signed

Either that, or remove it all together.
I only have a problem with it because some people end up playing weird. I can get the killing blow almost whenever I want by doing smite evil at the right moment, but that's not how I play. Why would I waste a smite evil or SP on a trash mob that has 5% HP left? That's just not an effective use of my dps.

In many cases I get him down to about 5% with just one of my slow hits, then someone comes along and takes the killing blow :p
The mobs around my level always have slightly more HP than I can crit for.

Shade
01-09-2010, 07:53 PM
The game doesn't need the meter, the fans can easily create one..

The devs just need to add a very simple option to the game.. Ability to dump the combat log to a text file in realtime.

Then fans could create a parser to show us the DPS.

Almost every mmo has an option like this, yet nearly 4 years later ddo still doesn't.

Gunga
01-09-2010, 07:55 PM
Wouldn't it suck if the meter verified that everyone getting the kills were actually the most effective?

Phidius
01-09-2010, 07:55 PM
I think you're half right... forget the Kill Count.

I'd have no problem with dumping data to a text file.

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 08:04 PM
Wouldn't it suck if the meter verified that everyone getting the kills were actually the most effective?
For some it would probably suck.

But I remember the first time I encountered the giant ambush in the beginning of Gianthold Tor.
It was just me and one monk.
I engaged every giant with either smite evil for 50-80% of his hp, with a low chance of getting the killing blow.
Or divine sacrifice for 30-60% and then a medium chance of getting the killing blow.

The monk got 30 something killing blows and I think I got 15, during that ambush.

In that case it was just good combo-teamwork and I don't see any better way to use our DPS during that fight.
That way we killed each giant in about 2-3 seconds.
Should I wait for the monk to hit the giant for 5 seconds and then smite it for the killing blow? :confused:

That's how people with high kbs make the party wipe.

mediocresurgeon
01-09-2010, 08:15 PM
I don't think a DPS meter would really help gameplay, since monsters don't aggro based on DPS. Only the total damage dealt by an individual matters.

Example: Sorcerer crits on a maximized quickened empowered Polar Ray with full Glacial set, max enhancements, etc vs a fire elemental that was hit with a monk's -10% cold vulnerability attack. Sorcerer deals ~2,500 damage in under 1 second. The fighter deals ~10,000 damage over the next few minutes.

Option 1: The sorcerer has aggro until someone else can do more than ~2,500 damage in under 1 second

Option 2: The fighter is able to recover aggro from the sorcerer because it eventually does more damage to the fire elemental than the sorcerer did, even if it takes a minute or two.


This game is pretty non-competitive, so there's really no point in besting your allies in kill-counts or DPS contests. But it would help to know how much aggro your allies are generating, so that you might work together more effectively.

wiglin
01-09-2010, 08:20 PM
I would like to see the following stats:

Total Damage Dealt
Total Damage Received
Total Healing Per Character

Marcus-Hawkeye
01-09-2010, 08:21 PM
The devs just need to add a very simple option to the game.. Ability to dump the combat log to a text file in realtime.

Yes, they really need to do this. They had one in their other game, Asherons Call 2. Someone made a really nice parser for it and you could easily tell how much damage you were doing. I'm really surprised they don't have that ability in this game...

Atenhotep
01-09-2010, 08:29 PM
/signed


I want to see this:

Damage dealt out AND Damage Received.

The Kill Count is among the most annoying, ridiculous things in DDO - a measure of nothing.

I'll repeat ..

At the end of each quest I want to see : Damage dealt out AND Damage Received.

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 08:50 PM
I'm not sure if a DPS meter would improve gameplay, but I'm pretty sure that a kill count meter makes some people not use their DPS to the best of their ability, and is thus NOT improving gameplay.

Phidius
01-09-2010, 08:58 PM
I would like to see the following stats:

Total Damage Dealt
Total Damage Received
Total Healing Per Character

What about

Total Damage Avoided Due To Well Placed Crowd Control

and

Total Damage Avoided Due To Good Strategy

Personally, I don't think we'll ever have a meter that will tell us who are good players and who aren't - it's a judgement call, and I'm happy with that.

Creeper
01-09-2010, 09:11 PM
Wouldn't it suck if the meter verified that everyone getting the kills were actually the most effective?

That's crazy talk! Why would the person doing the most damage have the most kills????

Tin_Dragon
01-10-2010, 08:04 PM
You can be a terrible dps'er and just manage to get the last hit. I feel Kill count is missleading. I want to know who has high dps when I make my group.

If DDO had a DPS meter then the stats can be posted on the forums per server (braging rights).

Just remove Kill Count.

Giraffie
01-12-2010, 11:46 PM
I sort of hated it when they implemented damage/healing meters into other games I played, because then it became solely about how much damage you were putting out. People focused less and less on crowd control and other useful things one could do in the party because, when at one time they were praised for CCing and following directions, they started getting scoffed at for not doing a ton of damage. It became more of a competition to be the top DPSer and less about working well with your party members.

Uska
01-13-2010, 12:10 AM
No this is the last thing we need and change to the kill counter to just a total that should stop some of the arguements about who is the best.

Marcus-Hawkeye
01-13-2010, 09:21 AM
I sort of hated it when they implemented damage/healing meters into other games I played, because then it became solely about how much damage you were putting out. People focused less and less on crowd control and other useful things one could do in the party because, when at one time they were praised for CCing and following directions, they started getting scoffed at for not doing a ton of damage. It became more of a competition to be the top DPSer and less about working well with your party members.

It's always been about DPS... I've been playing MMOs for almost a decade and that is what most people gear towards. I remember in Asheron's Call 2, whoever did the most damage to a mob, would be the one who got the kill and if they weren't in your party, they would be the one able to loot the corpse. I kind of liked that idea.

Talamare2k4
01-13-2010, 09:30 AM
What about changing the kill counter so that it works on who did the highest % of damage to the mob instead of who did the last hit

Iaga
01-13-2010, 09:31 AM
I have to admit to being shocked at most of these replies.

In a game that is based largely around group/team play the fact that so many are obsessed with kill counts says a lot.

If you wonder why so many PUGs crash and burn, the obsession with seeing your name at the top of the board is likely a large part of the reason.

Pity more players don't consider buffing, healing and crowd control to be as important a contribution ...

Lleren
01-13-2010, 09:41 AM
The game doesn't need the meter, the fans can easily create one..

The devs just need to add a very simple option to the game.. Ability to dump the combat log to a text file in realtime.

Then fans could create a parser to show us the DPS.

Almost every mmo has an option like this, yet nearly 4 years later ddo still doesn't.

This would work.
I luvs my ACT in EQ2

hermespan
01-13-2010, 09:45 AM
I have to admit to being shocked at most of these replies.

In a game that is based largely around group/team play the fact that so many are obsessed with kill counts says a lot.

If you wonder why so many PUGs crash and burn, the obsession with seeing your name at the top of the board is likely a large part of the reason.

Pity more players don't consider buffing, healing and crowd control to be as important a contribution ...

I want to see 12 Tempest Kensais/offensive casters beat Hound of Xoriat Elite with nothing but damage.

When that happens, I'll care about DPS more.

Mandinga
01-13-2010, 09:46 AM
Wow...I didn't know anyone actually obsessed about the kill count any more. I would only approve of a DPS meter if it is only viewable by the character dealing the damage and not everyone.


Mandinga

Creeper
01-13-2010, 09:47 AM
If you wonder why so many PUGs crash and burn, the obsession with seeing your name at the top of the board is likely a large part of the reason.


In my limited experience; not enough DPS has always been the biggest fail-factor of a pug.

I have never been in a PUG that has failed and blamed the kill count. I have never heard anyone else blame their failure on having a kill count feature either. So I disagree that it is a large reason that "so many PUGs crash and burn".



Pity more players don't consider buffing, healing and crowd control to be as important a contribution ...

I don't consider buffing, healing, and crowd control to be as important as DPS. Sorry if this is so shocking. It really shouldn't be.

P.S. My favorite crowd control spell is haste. :D

MystDragon
01-13-2010, 09:54 AM
Personally, whether I was on my DPS characters or support characters, I wouldn't want to team up with anyone who used anything like this as a basis of their leadership to determine if someone was a valuable member of the team or not.

That being said - It would have value to a DPS character to be able to see first hand the immediate effects of changing their gear. You have multiple weapons that are close and unsure of which one is working better for you? You would have the information very handy to compare different gear layouts vs. different types of creatures.

This would be useful as a tool for their own build, practically useless to evaluate the rest of the party.

There can not, and will not ever be an instant indicator capable of saying - "Oh this guy is better." You need your own experience playing the game for that. And you cannot compare Apples and Oranges. This Barbarian may out DPS everyone - but how much DPS would he do as a stone in someone's pack? That's where he would have been without the buffs, the healing, the TEAMWORK.

My 2 cents.

Phidius
01-13-2010, 09:56 AM
It's always been about DPS... I've been playing MMOs for almost a decade and that is what most people gear towards. I remember in Asheron's Call 2, whoever did the most damage to a mob, would be the one who got the kill and if they weren't in your party, they would be the one able to loot the corpse. I kind of liked that idea.

Surely there's room for healing, crowd control, buffing, etc...? Focusing on DPS excludes those other "roles"... at least, that's how it appears to the people who are keeping the DPS'ers on their feet.

I don't know about Asheron's Call 2, but in DDO, DPS doesn't last long on it's own.

Creeper
01-13-2010, 09:58 AM
There can not, and will not ever be an instant indicator capable of saying - "Oh this guy is better." You need your own experience playing the game for that. And you cannot compare Apples and Oranges.


It's not an indicator that says who is better, it is an indicator for who killed the most ****.



This Barbarian may out DPS everyone - but how much DPS would he do as a stone in someone's pack? That's where he would have been without the buffs, the healing, the TEAMWORK.


Answer: He would do no DPS as a soulstone, and his kill count would suck. See how that works? :D

Gercho
01-13-2010, 10:02 AM
While you are learning the game, kill count serves as a metric to see if you are doing well with your char, if your role is dps and you are well behind on kill count consistently, then most probably you are doing something wrong.

For example, last night i was doing Deleras with a party, i was using my pala with a board and a battle hammer for the skeletons (got the HOTD pre to do deleras repeatedly) and there was particularly one WF ranger that seemed to be doing lots of damage (at least lot of attacks and really fast with shiny weapons that i would think where holy) so i thought that my dps should be really poor in comparision, but on every quest i got a little ahead in kill count, while i used my lay on hands to heal others (including the WF) cause i didnt got much damage myself, that in someway reassured me that i was right with my build.

I guess that when i switch to TWF i will be able to keep comparing my dps against others, and i think that unless someone is waiting to do the last hit, in general kill count correlates with dps, so no need to change the metric.

Renvar
01-13-2010, 10:35 AM
I don't think a DPS meter is necessary, nor would it be beneficial to the player base. It would just be another way to pump your e-peen.

I do think kill counts should be swtiched to give credit to the character that dealt the most damage to the mob, not the one that handed out the killing blow. That would be fine and would be a better gauge of which players were contributing most to DPS.

All this talk about tracking healing, cc, and buffing to value everyone's contribution is also unnecessary. The quest window shows kills because you get an XP bonus for killing certain percentages of the mobs in the dungeon. You don't get XP for a certain number of heals, buffs, or CC's. The screen's purpose is to show the groups progress toward the tangible XP goals of the quest. Not to pat every player on the back and make sure their ego is massaged as the best healer, CC'er, intimidator, UMD'er, buffer, etc. All these things play into success of the party and any solid player knows that. And any solid player can tell who is getting the job done and who isnt.

You don't need a counter on the screen to tell you that. You just need one to tell you how much XP you will be getting and how you are progressing towards those goals.

That's my opinion.

Phidius
01-13-2010, 10:48 AM
...I do think kill counts should be swtiched to give credit to the character that dealt the most damage to the mob, not the one that handed out the killing blow. That would be fine and would be a better gauge of which players were contributing most to DPS.



What about when one person is using DPS, and the other is using vorpals on high HP mobs?


...The quest window shows kills because you get an XP bonus for killing certain percentages of the mobs in the dungeon. You don't get XP for a certain number of heals, buffs, or CC's. The screen's purpose is to show the groups progress toward the tangible XP goals of the quest...

If that were so, then it would show the entire parties kill count, not individual kill counts.

We do get XP for heals, buffs, and CC's - it's the 10% for no one dying.

And the 10% for no-deaths is far more difficult to achieve than Conquest in many quests - if we're going to enhance the feedback tools, why not give some credit to the folks who made this 10% possible?


...And any solid player can tell who is getting the job done and who isnt...

Agreed - to be honest, I don't want Turbine to spend any resources on creating heal/buff/cc meters - just threw that out for those who think DPS is the end-all-be-all. It's important, yes, but not at the expense of the other aspects of the game.

I'd rather the kill count got changed to a party total, and an option created to dump the combat log to a text file (preferably in an easy to consume format).

noneill
01-13-2010, 11:00 AM
The game doesn't need the meter, the fans can easily create one..

The devs just need to add a very simple option to the game.. Ability to dump the combat log to a text file in realtime.

Then fans could create a parser to show us the DPS.

Almost every mmo has an option like this, yet nearly 4 years later ddo still doesn't.

I like this idea, and I really wouldn't care about seeing other people's logs, jsut my own.
Most times, it is to chaotic in battles to see what is really going on, especially the hard ones. So after playing just being able to read the combat log would be a huge bonus. For instance playing the Baldurs Gate games back in the day I would pause after a battle and read the logs to really see what I had done. You can't pause an MMO and can't really stop and read while the other party members are running off to the next fight. So being able to read the combat log offline would be great for me.

Thurgrim
01-13-2010, 03:08 PM
Personally, I have never seen a need for a DPS meter. Games with ratings like that inadvertantly create bias towards specific builds, and unfortunately, as this latest generation of DDO players arrives because of the FTP feature, I have noticed more and more resistance to allowing certain builds joining certain quests, even in brand spanking new lfm requests.

One of the things I have always found appealing about DDO is the variety of builds/classes and the nearly infinite variety of combinations that can make up a party. I would be against anything that would allow other players to publicly "judge" another player based upon one specific statistic.

Although I would not be against, perhaps, a personal (private) indicator displaying such information to assist those looking to tweak everything possible out of a toon. I would even be in favor of leaving a Total Team Kill count in and doing away with individual counts (my son likes to brag on his kill count from time to time...until I stop healing him and show him that the game requires team play, not individual kudos)

Someone hit it right on the head earlier: any player that pays attention to those in the party can get a feel for who is pulling their weight and who isn't.

The best gauge I have always used is simple: did we survive while having fun and would I group with these people again.

Peace!

MsEricka
01-13-2010, 04:15 PM
Yup, lets add a DPS meter so that monks and rogues never get into parties because we never do damage.

The rogue has assassinate, little damage but instant kill
The monk has quivering palm, little damage but instant kill

Lets not single out classes just because some tool doesn't understand them and only reads some scale. As far as damage and kill count, what a DPS scale would look like is that the monk or rogue was kill stealing.

Fenrisulven6
01-14-2010, 12:37 AM
You can be a terrible dps'er and just manage to get the last hit. I feel Kill count is missleading. I want to know who has high dps when I make my group.

If DDO had a DPS meter then the stats can be posted on the forums per server (braging rights).

No.

While kill count is not meant to be used as an indicator for "bragging rights". Neither are DPS stats. How would you account for all the time toons spend out of combat - handling traps, running stones back to shrine, UMDing cc clickies, breaking off melee to wand heal the cleric, using tactical weapon effects like cursespew para disrupt destruction, rogue working SA under your aggro, etc

And I've seen the players obsessed with their count. They cant stand to be "outperformed" by a "lesser" players. They wind up rushing the quest to pad their count and run the party into a brick wall party wipe. Or they focus on trash mobs while the red named is nawing on the cleric's leg.

/not signed

Fenrisulven6
01-14-2010, 12:48 AM
I have never heard anyone else blame their failure on having a kill count feature either. So I disagree that it is a large reason that "so many PUGs crash and burn".

Most PUGs crash and burn because of one guy: he left PVP games because he kept getting his tail kicked, he plays DDO so he can show off in front of 5 other players, usually by rushing ahead and trying to solo every encounter. Its sad but true - his entire self-worth is based around his kill count. The newer players go into lemming mode and just try to keep up, the not-so-wise vets attempt to rescue him, and everyone gets sucked into a DA mob and party wipes. Don't be that guy.




I don't consider buffing, healing, and crowd control to be as important as DPS.

I don't consider blocking to be as important as passing yards....

GeneralDiomedes
01-14-2010, 12:52 AM
solving instakill would be easy .. you just get the remaining hp as damage.

Twerpp
01-14-2010, 12:55 AM
Wouldn't it suck if the meter verified that everyone getting the kills were actually the most effective?

It would... in a "the truth hurts" kinda way.

Uska
01-14-2010, 12:57 AM
While you are learning the game, kill count serves as a metric to see if you are doing well with your char, if your role is dps and you are well behind on kill count consistently, then most probably you are doing something wrong.

For example, last night i was doing Deleras with a party, i was using my pala with a board and a battle hammer for the skeletons (got the HOTD pre to do deleras repeatedly) and there was particularly one WF ranger that seemed to be doing lots of damage (at least lot of attacks and really fast with shiny weapons that i would think where holy) so i thought that my dps should be really poor in comparision, but on every quest i got a little ahead in kill count, while i used my lay on hands to heal others (including the WF) cause i didnt got much damage myself, that in someway reassured me that i was right with my build.

I guess that when i switch to TWF i will be able to keep comparing my dps against others, and i think that unless someone is waiting to do the last hit, in general kill count correlates with dps, so no need to change the metric.

Kill count means nothing, was doing TR and I was pounding on mobs and right before I would kill most this little halfing would jump in and do a quick strike most of the time he would stand back until I had the mobs on the way to the grave, so I ran in agrro'd a bunch of them and teleported out of the quest and watched his life bar drop to zero, I had decided I could have more fun soloing the thing instead of duoing it with that rogue.

chaos_master
01-14-2010, 01:04 AM
Killcount, DPS meter and stuff like that are highly based on the situation and anyone reading them without taking this into account might as well drop me from his group, because he has little to no idea what's going on.

In Amrath, I usually lead the killcount because I dual-wield vorpals with Tempest PrC, Jorgundal's Collar and Haste Boost IV, but if it weren't for the tank with the intimidate skill, I'd have my squishy butt splattered over the floor. The fact is, few builds can do enough damage to bring a mob down before I vorpal it, especially on higher diffs. But once we get to the death warded mobs ...

On the other end, when I'm in Gianthold, I take out my cursespewer and paralyzer and with the mentioned attack speed, my sole job is immobilizing stuff so others can safely bash it. I don't get killcount, since agro is predominantly on me, and I don't do much damage either, but I save the healer a lot of sp or make quests possible without having one.

The above aside, I enjoy bragging about killcount when I have it, but only to people I know aren't taking me seriously :)

shenthing
01-14-2010, 01:12 AM
The problem with a DPS meter is that if you need it, it's still misleading. Rogues can out DPS most anyone as long as they get BS damage all the time. The person using a banisher will miss out on DPS since he losses rounds of combat or gets more DPS if it is given to them by the calculator.
Really, kill count and DPS meters should not factor into anything but the ****ing contest that it actually is, a good party is a successful one. Now, I am not saying that DPS is not important.. every team needs DPS and calculators are great for figuring out non-conditional DPS.
Besides, there is already a DPS meter... the combat log.

Lleren
01-14-2010, 01:16 AM
Data, I want parsable data.

Damage Done/DPS is only a part of the data I want

HPS is right up there as well, though total healing done may be more important

hit %, hopefully not including "air swings"
Damage taken
% the mobs missed me!

I want a seperate counter for "insta-kills" and regular kills!
I want a counter for mobs Crowd Controlled!

Subjective impressions are just that, subjective... give me hard data.

-- I probobly shouldn't analyze it when this sleep deprived though --

QuantumFX
01-14-2010, 01:20 AM
DDO needs an ego stroking meter.

lugoman
01-14-2010, 01:26 AM
I don't think a DPS meter is necessary, nor would it be beneficial to the player base. It would just be another way to pump your e-peen.



Why is that so wrong? People put in a lot of work getting their toons to do a lot of damage. What is so wrong with showing off a little?

Fenrisulven6
01-14-2010, 01:28 AM
nm.....

Uska
01-14-2010, 01:32 AM
Why is that so wrong? People put in a lot of work getting their toons to do a lot of damage. What is so wrong with showing off a little?

Because people act like jerks while showing off and there would never be enough information for the compelete story.

bobbryan2
01-14-2010, 01:33 AM
Because people act like jerks while showing off and there would never be enough information for the compelete story.

Sure, there are negatives. Anyone would agree. But don't ignore the positives.

Fenrisulven6
01-14-2010, 01:38 AM
Sure, there are negatives. Anyone would agree. But don't ignore the positives.

Well for starters, the people that would corrupt this feature are already corrupting the kill count stats, so the negatives wouldn't increase much beyond their current level of annoyance.

I think its silly and only shows that they don't understand basic concepts of the game, but hell, if they want it that bad, let them have it.

/un-unsigned. can i do that?

Uska
01-14-2010, 01:46 AM
Sure, there are negatives. Anyone would agree. But don't ignore the positives.

I see none that out weigh the negatives.

Lleren
01-14-2010, 01:51 AM
Why folks so scared of the e-peen... is it one of those homophobia things?

If the numbers give them more to crow about, or perhaps act like a bleep, then you simply have another thing to squeltch them over and get them out of your percieved game world.

If you think a little dps comparison talk between folks is a serious and hatefilled business, then perhaps you should remeber we can't strangle each other about it, only use words. If our words are deemed to be excessively harsh, then we can /report or be /reported, and you can do this in our stead.

Subjective is bad, hard data is good.
Subjective data reinforces your beliefs nearly every time in most peoples...look how many folks believe in luck, whether they belive thiers is bad or good. Other examples of this effect abound.

bobbryan2
01-14-2010, 01:59 AM
Well for starters, the people that would corrupt this feature are already corrupting the kill count stats, so the negatives wouldn't increase much beyond their current level of annoyance.

I think its silly and only shows that they don't understand basic concepts of the game, but hell, if they want it that bad, let them have it.

/un-unsigned. can i do that?

Basic concepts of the game? Yeah, obviously I don't know how to play this game.

It all comes back to feedback.

More info > Less info.

Anyone who is scared of information and feedback isn't someone I want to group with anyway. If you're scared of feedback, it means you know you might not be helping, and don't want confirmation of that fact.

GeneralDiomedes
01-14-2010, 02:05 AM
More info > Less info.


I bet I could give you an example of too much info.

Creeper
01-14-2010, 03:30 AM
Most PUGs crash and burn because of one guy: he left PVP games because he kept getting his tail kicked, he plays DDO so he can show off in front of 5 other players, usually by rushing ahead and trying to solo every encounter. Its sad but true - his entire self-worth is based around his kill count. The newer players go into lemming mode and just try to keep up, the not-so-wise vets attempt to rescue him, and everyone gets sucked into a DA mob and party wipes. Don't be that guy.


Do you email surveys to the members of your PUGs after a failure? That's a pretty specific psychological profile there.

What is it that he is showing off? If he left other games because he sucked then came here and single-handedly caused his PUGs to fail, you would think that he would have the same luck showing off in front of the other five players—failure.

-Satureon-
01-14-2010, 03:46 AM
/Signed!!!

Kill count just stupid, because the fact of kill-stealing.
A DPS meter could be useful for the party leader or party decisions about sharing roles... (f.e. dps/debuffer/insta kill things, not the same cathegory but all useful for a party when need to fight)

Fenrisulven6
01-14-2010, 04:24 AM
Basic concepts of the game? Yeah, obviously I don't know how to play this game.

What makes you think I'm talking about you? A lil insecure, yes?


Anyone who is scared of information and feedback isn't someone I want to group with anyway. If you're scared of feedback, it means you know you might not be helping, and don't want confirmation of that fact.

Keep stroking that strawman...

Pyromaniac
01-14-2010, 05:56 AM
/signed but I'd also like the following stats, as a full picture of performance would be much more interesting...

Damage taken
Healing given
Buffs given
Mobs crowd controlled

Gercho
01-14-2010, 08:34 AM
I think any extra stat will be usefull, and any extra stat could be used wrong, that doesnt means that the stats are wrong.
I think that opposing to extra stats cause some people could use them wrong makes no sense. In the end they will give us some objetive measures to help discuss certain points, that are actually being discussed but with more subjetive basis.

ghettoGenius
01-14-2010, 08:40 AM
I'm all for it. But I'm warning you, peoples lives are going to be shattered when they see that rogues have the best dps.

KKDragonLord
01-14-2010, 08:47 AM
Wow...I didn't know anyone actually obsessed about the kill count any more. I would only approve of a DPS meter if it is only viewable by the character dealing the damage and not everyone.


Mandinga

This could work.

Duskslayer
01-14-2010, 02:50 PM
While it would be "nifty" to know who stands where - this would bring to DDO the gear-centric "WoW-mentality" which would not focus on teamplay - but rather on who has uber gear.

Over the years no one has bothered to see who has what gear when we PUG. All we have seen over the years is.... how the team works together to achieve common goals. No matter how rag-tag equipped we were.

Bringing such "gadgetry" to our world would only ruin the experience.

/NOT signed.

Bogenbroom
01-14-2010, 03:31 PM
Basic concepts of the game? Yeah, obviously I don't know how to play this game.

It all comes back to feedback.

More info > Less info.

Anyone who is scared of information and feedback isn't someone I want to group with anyway. If you're scared of feedback, it means you know you might not be helping, and don't want confirmation of that fact.

I am not at all convinced More Info > Less Info. Information skews the way the game is approached. Is it better or worse for the game that I know my fighter has a 32 strength instead of a 31? It is possible that receiving less 'data' type information would lead to a more immersive game. I am not saying that is definitely the case, but it is possible.

Personally I am a stat freak and if the data is made available to me, I'll make use of it. I am not sure Kill Count is a terrible metric in-game, simply because it is a reasonable thing for characters in-game to know. Bif the Fighter would *know* that he killed 43 Orcs during that last adventure. He would not know that he produced 54 hp/sec of damaged while engaged.

If you start getting into the dps and other stats, there are certainly many that could/should be looked at. Stats are not a good thing to do half-assed.

bobbryan2
01-14-2010, 06:27 PM
I am not at all convinced More Info > Less Info. Information skews the way the game is approached. Is it better or worse for the game that I know my fighter has a 32 strength instead of a 31? It is possible that receiving less 'data' type information would lead to a more immersive game. I am not saying that is definitely the case, but it is possible.

Personally I am a stat freak and if the data is made available to me, I'll make use of it. I am not sure Kill Count is a terrible metric in-game, simply because it is a reasonable thing for characters in-game to know. Bif the Fighter would *know* that he killed 43 Orcs during that last adventure. He would not know that he produced 54 hp/sec of damaged while engaged.

If you start getting into the dps and other stats, there are certainly many that could/should be looked at. Stats are not a good thing to do half-assed.

It's actually a fair point. It's the reason that devs in online games hide the true mechanics in so many cases. A little mystery causes people to get bored less often.

However, this is not one of those cases. We already see how much damage we do. We know the mechanics of everything involved (fortification, crits, attack rate, base damage, etc etc) There is nothing we don't know.. we simply don't have a counter.

zooble
01-14-2010, 06:45 PM
I'm not sure if a DPS meter would improve gameplay, but I'm pretty sure that a kill count meter makes some people not use their DPS to the best of their ability, and is thus NOT improving gameplay.

and everyone will suddenly have a blatend disregard for survivability to keep their dps up helping gameplay how?

people low on the kill count are generally healers and hybrids (vorpals exception). people low on dps meters are generally healers and hybrids. there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

from this thread the only people that want a dps meter are the people who's kills are getting stolen. /lol at your neediness

bobbryan2
01-14-2010, 06:50 PM
and everyone will suddenly have a blatend disregard for survivability to keep their dps up helping gameplay how?

people low on the kill count are generally healers and hybrids (vorpals exception). people low on dps meters are generally healers and hybrids. there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

from this thread the only people that want a dps meter are the people who's kills are getting stolen. /lol at your neediness

Apparantly, you're not good at dissecting why people ask.

For the record... no one gets their kills 'stolen' in this game. It's a stupid, lame excuse to cover up bad play. I'm so sick of hearing the anecdotal, "I did 200 damage, and the rogue just got the last hit in."

Hjarki
01-14-2010, 07:11 PM
First of all, an inherent dps meter is a bad idea because analysis of the logs is not a trivial task. Anything that Turbine came up with would almost necessarily be a poor substitute for simply being able to save your logs and use an off-line analysis tool.

However, my suspicion is that if Turbine hasn't done this yet, it's probably because they never will. While parsing logs would reveal dps, it would also reveal the precise numbers for mechanics like mob saves/AC/etc. - and it appears that Turbine really wants this information to remain obscured.

Second of all, more information reduces the "dps obsession" rather than increasing it. This occurs because more precise information allows people to focus more accurately on non-damage tasks that positively impact the group's success. Lacking the information provided by parsers/meters, it's all too easy for people to delude themselves into thinking that swinging their weapons is more important than all the other abilities they bring to the table (obviously, for builds where "swinging your weapons" is pretty much all you bring to the table in the first place, a parser/meter is just a way to more effectively do so).

Thurgrim
01-14-2010, 07:18 PM
It's actually a fair point. It's the reason that devs in online games hide the true mechanics in so many cases. A little mystery causes people to get bored less often.

However, this is not one of those cases. We already see how much damage we do. We know the mechanics of everything involved (fortification, crits, attack rate, base damage, etc etc) There is nothing we don't know.. we simply don't have a counter.

Forgive me, because I don't disagree with the idea of additonal statistics be made available, but I don't see the need to advertise how much player A did this or that of over player B. Knowing what successes you have personally achieved is great, knowing what someone else did doesn't do squat for you. It works in other games because they have no variety. Example:

I mostly play healing classes these days because my two sons are now old enough to join my wife and I, and while we have fun, they do keep me busy!! We (my wife and I) started playing back in the beta period and were amazed at how versitile we could make characters.

Sure, as in every game, there are groups that will form preferential builds and preach that this is the only way a class should be played. I used to get that all the time on my first Cleric back on the now deceased Fernia server. Clerics heal....that's your job...stay back. Boy, that mantra got old. Even after I was a member of a 12 cleric Tempest Spine raid when level 10 was the cap. Even after being part of a 12 Cleric Vellah raid on Elite and dancing on her corpse. It's a shame all us clerics can do is heal.
Pity really.

The popularity and success of games such as WoW has brain washed many in the gaming realm into thinking it is the only way. It's success can't be denied, but, Wow and other games of it's ilk had very myopic routes to build chars. Fighters fought or held aggro, healers healed, etc. In the end, groups started forming with selections based upon "is that the best gear you have? You aren't going to hit hard enough to help...sorry"

That's sad. Deny someone game experience simply because they may not have as much time/resources to farm to get super,duper, uber gear to make YOUR gaming time a challenge free experience. And that is what it boils down to: this ME FIRST mentality. You aren't good enough...I can see that and take screenies to back it up when I tell everyone you suck and they shouldn't waste their time grouping with you.

Again, I have NO issue with a DPS meter, if each player's stats are made available to themselves at the end of each quest (or even privately during the quest if someone feels the need to alter their own playstyle to become more efficient). Also include a bevy of other useful stats for players that don't thrive on DPS...rouge skills, healing, spell penetration success rate, whatever. More stats will help each player set and achieve their own goals.

But, petition to make personal stats public, and you better send me your name and address so I can have all my electric bills, car payments, mortage, etc sent directly to you (not you personally Bobbryan...I just quoted you because of the two lines I bolded looked kinda ironic :) ).

Because only when you start paying my bills will I give a **** what you think of my builds, or how effective you perceive them to be in making your gaming experience a sleep walk.

Fenrisulven6
01-15-2010, 03:04 AM
Well said, Thurgrim.

Docta_PoPo
01-17-2010, 01:37 AM
Kill count is highly representative of the highest dpser...

For example... A Ranger and Barbarian are both swinging at the same mob and the ranger is hitting for 30 a swing while the barbarian is hitting for 50 a swing the barb has a much higher chance of landing the killing blow. This is because the last swing of the barb would kill a mob with 50 or less hp while if the ranger hits it with 50 or less hitpoints he will bring him closer to 0 hp and the barb will be next to swing and get the kill.

If your argument is people are using there smite evils to take the kill then you can just observe them and realize they are idiots and move on.

calvinklien
01-17-2010, 02:03 AM
In a game that is based largely around group/team play the fact that so many are obsessed with kill counts says a lot. If you wonder why so many PUGs crash and burn, the obsession with seeing your name at the top of the board is likely a large part of the reason. Pity more players don't consider buffing, healing and crowd control to be as important a contribution ...

and frankly i dont expect a trapmonkey/lockpicker to get the most kills but if they get all the traps and chests we take less damage and get more xp which is cool. dude that went ape$h*t crushing every barrel/crate pumps xp, give him props.

it should be kindof obvious who did what during a quest and who didn't pull thier weight without some silly counters and billboards at the end. sometimes my archer isn't dealing a ton of dmg but is priming everything for the party using destruction/cursespewing/puncturing which helps the party but i don't expect it to show up on a billboard. i just tell 'em "i'm using destruction." so they know they're getting more hits 'cuz i'm butterin' 'em up.

but who cares, if people want dps meters let 'em have them. people don't invite others just because of DPS. infact, they'll not invite a DPS braggart. i ran w/a certain monk the other night, he did good damage *nodnod* but i'll never run w/him again.

CheapToad1
02-04-2010, 11:17 AM
I just basically want something that will help my char better help the group. If I had a dps meter and it helped me make my char better, why not have it.

For other chars that do not have a need for this maybe in the "new" scorecard they can have a variety of new stats ie: heals given, heals recieved, damage taken, damage given, etc...

So when I say DPS meter I guess I mean something that would help every member of the group.

TommyBoy
02-04-2010, 11:22 AM
You can be a terrible dps'er and just manage to get the last hit. I feel Kill count is missleading. I want to know who has high dps when I make my group.


me too so when i have those 5 to 8 crit chains and someone else gets my kill we'll know who really did the work

ArichValtrahn
02-04-2010, 11:30 AM
I would like to see the following stats:

Total Damage Dealt
Total Damage Received
Total Healing Per Character

This would be very nice. Logging the sp sponges would be great. Id like to see damage dealt as well.

CheapToad1
02-04-2010, 01:01 PM
How's this?

Assuming they do add different stats, how about an option to export the numbers to a spreadsheet?

nice?

Comboii
02-04-2010, 11:01 PM
Your DPS can already be calculated using simple math. There is a bunch of DPS numbers in the character builds forums.

You guys can keep arguing about DPS meter, but at least you all agree the kill count meter is misleading and unwanted. So start a new thread about removing individual kill counts. The party kill count will still be on there.

Bosco
02-04-2010, 11:24 PM
You can be a terrible dps'er and just manage to get the last hit. I feel Kill count is missleading. I want to know who has high dps when I make my group.

If DDO had a DPS meter then the stats can be posted on the forums per server (braging rights).

Anyone can get lucky by getting the last hit. But to consistently get the last hit the majority of the time through luck. OP trust me, you do not want anything other then a kill count. No reason to start facing reality this late in the game.

Kemoc
02-04-2010, 11:35 PM
You can be a terrible dps'er and just manage to get the last hit. I feel Kill count is missleading. I want to know who has high dps when I make my group.

If DDO had a DPS meter then the stats can be posted on the forums per server (braging rights).

Been there and done that in World of Warcraft, I am here now because the game is different and goes beyond the simple minded dps tank healer mechanic. DDO is a team effort. Builds are much more unconstrained in this game and contribution to the game effort goes beyond simple dps. Not only that but I found dps metering to be very inaccurate in World of Warcraft compared to combat log dumps.

Lleren
02-05-2010, 12:11 AM
Your DPS can already be calculated using simple math. There is a bunch of DPS numbers in the character builds forums.

You guys can keep arguing about DPS meter, but at least you all agree the kill count meter is misleading and unwanted. So start a new thread about removing individual kill counts. The party kill count will still be on there.

I both agree and disagree

Your maximum possible dps for a build can be calculated, also your dps with varying degrees of effectiveness.

What cannot be calculated though is where in the range of player ability you are. That can be guessed at by the kill count you garner in group instances, but is a poor tool to use, and more of a guessing game. Even with ranged combat being a poor choice, some players with a parser or kill count may find that they themselves put out more dps as a ranged build due to reaction speed, moving between mobs, and other reasons.

Will most players find themselves better off with a ranged build, probobly not, some will though. A parser would help prove that. A parser would also show where the more normal range for dps is in our groups. We do not have this data currently, and can't calculate it. I would find this data very interesting, and do in other games such as EQ2.

Kill count, while it may tend to show who is doing more dps within a group, cannot be compared between groups with any degree of accuracy.

PurdueDave
02-05-2010, 12:20 AM
Wouldn't it suck if the meter verified that everyone getting the kills were actually the most effective?

Wouldn't that be a shocking concept, eh?

LyrandarMemory
02-05-2010, 11:02 AM
It has already been mentioned.

How are you going to measure stuff like instant killing (e.g. vorpal effects, phantasmal force, turn undead, etc.). The remaining hp will not be counted.

How are you going to measure crowd control? Succesful crowd control means people will need lesser healing. That will lower the HPS (healing per second) score for the healer.

In some quests certain tactics are useful (e.g. firewalling undeads and have a tank intimidate the undead which can be intimidated). In others you can use doors and block melee mobs (no need for intimidation) and have them fried by the wizard. The numbers will all go into the DPS/HPS scores and total sums. But does it mean someone is a good player for relying on such tactics? Such tactics rely on reamwork and require that one or two skip on dishing out damage for the overall good of the party. These are only a few examples. But there are quite more viable tactics. And the success and applicability is situational.

You can count all possible variables. But the key aspect is the ability to analyse the data. You also have to bear in mind which consequence a tactic has on the numbers. And I doubt that someone will be capable to make a sound analysis without knowing the basics of the game. Will such a meter really help someone who jumps from game to game and only relies on such means to rate his skill?

Another gripe I have with DPS meters is that if available it will not be exclusively used for raids. It will be used on everyday quests too. Just as eample: "ww elite. high dpser needed". It's easier and less nerve shaking to duo such a quest with a hireling than with such a group (at least from my experience).

Ziffnabb
10-09-2010, 01:47 PM
Personally I have no desire to have an in-game active dps meter but having the ablity to parse at least ones own log has alot of benifit for improving your own build. With the current combat log all you see is your own numbers not everyones so many of the downfalls of parsing would be moot. As for many of the benifits we have none without it.

Battlehawke
10-09-2010, 01:54 PM
I think it would be great if a few things were tracked on each server, and you could see a comparison of the top ten..... things such as:

1) Kill Count
2) Highest Heal
3) Highest One Shot Melee Damage
4) Highest One Shot Ranged Damage
5) Highest One Shot Spell Damage
6) Highest Prestige/Faction
7) Highest AC
8) Most HP
9) Most Raids
10) Well...you get the idea

Battlehawke

Mr_Ed7
10-09-2010, 02:03 PM
How about a heal meter while we are at it to see who healed the most,
or who had to be healed the most.

A fighter once fabricated a comeptition of who got the most kills he or my Paladin?
I asked who healed more, for I must have healed over 500hp of damage...

A barbarian had gotten far more kills then my fighter-rogue...yet he needed a constant nanny-cleric while I...did not.

Boromirs
10-09-2010, 02:11 PM
ALL these things will only lead to tears... and a MASSIVE headache on Turbine's part (not because of adding the DPS meter..that would be very easy to do)... but because of what that meter might reveal about certain classes/builds.

Consumer
10-09-2010, 02:19 PM
ALL these things will only lead to tears... and a MASSIVE headache on Turbine's part (not because of adding the DPS meter..that would be very easy to do)... but because of what that meter might reveal about certain classes/builds.

We already know the DPS of every build, there's nothing to reveal.

It would in fact tell you your personal DPS rather than your builds max or optimized DPS.



Also stop Necroing threads, its not difficult, if someone hasn't posted in it for a couple months just avoid it.

DevilButcher
10-09-2010, 02:22 PM
LOL if you want a DPS meter, I demand a DTPS meter too (damage taken per second meter) just to who is the sap using up all the cleric's sp...

domeks18
10-09-2010, 02:22 PM
/signed
I want to see my true dps in real-time.
If someone doesn't, he will disable this thingy.

It's working good in wow and other mmo's.

maddmatt70
10-09-2010, 02:25 PM
There is no reason not to have a dps meter and it is backwards that Turbine does not or at least allow for the players to make one.

Tobril
10-09-2010, 02:38 PM
We already know the DPS of every build, there's nothing to reveal.

It would in fact tell you your personal DPS rather than your builds max or optimized DPS.



Also stop Necroing threads, its not difficult, if someone hasn't posted in it for a couple months just avoid it.


I would be interested in a calculator that factored in monk strikes, as I have not seen one yet.

Also, what does it matter if someone brings up an old conversation? Will the world end if they do so?

sirdanile
10-09-2010, 02:43 PM
No.

While kill count is not meant to be used as an indicator for "bragging rights". Neither are DPS stats. How would you account for all the time toons spend out of combat - handling traps, running stones back to shrine, UMDing cc clickies, breaking off melee to wand heal the cleric, using tactical weapon effects like cursespew para disrupt destruction, rogue working SA under your aggro, etc

And I've seen the players obsessed with their count. They cant stand to be "outperformed" by a "lesser" players. They wind up rushing the quest to pad their count and run the party into a brick wall party wipe. Or they focus on trash mobs while the red named is nawing on the cleric's leg.

/not signed

Now I agree some people can be complete jerks...

Occasionally i'll half jokingly mention the kill count ("Whoa the Crowd Controlling caster has 13 more kills than the barbarian in prey on the hunter!")

Occasionally i'll run ahead or solo half of a dungeon while the group does the other half if thats fine with them. (Lowbie example: durks, highbie example sleeping dust while searching for the journal or clearing the original ogres)

And in a boss fight here are my priorites: Dangerous trash (Casters generally, wolves or other dangerous melee enemy), boss, less dangerous trash (Things that don't go PEW PEW PEW at me with sparkly lazers.)

I'm an advocate of the allowance for the players to parse the data themselves to come up with a dps meter for themselves. This would work with healing or even crowd control/instakill if you parse the data right and would allow players to hone their builds to perfection, and we could get a true comparison between popular builds like the monster, a pure fighter kensai, and a pure frenzied berserker barbarian.

FlyingTurtle
10-09-2010, 02:46 PM
Tl;DR 5 pages of posts...

Everything would be solved if they'd just take out the kill count display.

You easily can tell if your DPS is lower than the other guy if you just pay attention. This DPS stuff is just for the numbers geeks (of which, YES I am one, just during the build process, not WHILE I AM PLAYING). They need to sell it in the DDO Store as a special item: 1000TP: DPS Meter Maid. The magical fairy tells you how much damage you're outputting, and sends you flowers in the mail if you're outdamaging everyone else in your party!

EatSmart
10-09-2010, 03:12 PM
/not signed

The ranger dual weilding banishing rapiers deserves their insanely high kill count in coalescence chamber.

Yes i can see your point that people can pad their kill counts by doing semi-shadey things with timing their special attacks. But lets put it another way, do you think someone who melees a mob that is going to die to a death effect deserves to have that damage recorded when they could have spent that time damaging a portal?

DPS meters are nice and all, but they still wont give a good indication of effective play. Having both would be nice, but I'm not convinced its worth the development time vs more content.

lugoman
10-09-2010, 03:15 PM
I don't think a DPS meter would really help gameplay, since monsters don't aggro based on DPS. Only the total damage dealt by an individual matters.


This game is pretty non-competitive, so there's really no point in besting your allies in kill-counts or DPS contests. But it would help to know how much aggro your allies are generating, so that you might work together more effectively.

It would help me in determining which setup is the most effective. It isnt about competing with someone but helping me maximize my gear to do the most damage.

EatSmart
10-09-2010, 03:19 PM
*points to the airship training dummy*

you can use a buff as a counter for determining the time it took you to kill it.

Camarde
10-09-2010, 03:24 PM
/not signed

Forget dps, just have fun and variety in game.

dormetheus
10-09-2010, 04:53 PM
Wow. If they introduce DPS meter, they better introduce SEVERAL other meters/measurements:

Player x TOTAL damage:
Player x Instant Kills (banish/vorpal/FoD/etc.):
Player x Stuns, Trips, Sunders successes/fails:
Player x HP/Heals received:
Caster x SR checks/successes:
Caster x DC successes/fails:
Caster x Total heals:

Etc. etc. etc.

domeks18
10-09-2010, 04:58 PM
Wow. If they introduce DPS meter, they better introduce SEVERAL other meters/measurements:

Player x TOTAL damage:
Player x Instant Kills (banish/vorpal/FoD/etc.):
Player x Stuns, Trips, Sunders successes/fails:
Player x HP/Heals received:
Caster x SR checks/successes:
Caster x DC successes/fails:
Caster x Total heals:

Etc. etc. etc.

Great idea, + for tanks hate per second(damage+ all threat bonuses).

Maybe:
Dps per Second
Heals per Second
Heals Received
Threat per Second
Total action per Second(mashin the keyboard for monks/paladins/clerics/fvs/angry people, cheers!)

Insta kills.

More ideas?
Ofc only those who want will be able to see those informations.
It works great in other mmo's, you can compare your true dps and your perfect calculator dps ;)
Who is better than you and how big is difference, for me it is great.
Is it a lot of work?
Devs?

khaldan
10-09-2010, 05:23 PM
*points to the airship training dummy*

you can use a buff as a counter for determining the time it took you to kill it.

If you could change the fort on it, sure. 100% fort on the other hand completely screws rogues, and makes everyone else lose quite a bit of dps.

Stillwaters
10-09-2010, 05:33 PM
Dummy is a construct you can use wrack on it if im not mistaken, and all the flash new fort reducing toys in u7.

To OP

Dps means stuff-all by itself : if i get a crit for 200 damage when the mob only had 1 hp left, my dps is technically only 1

that being said, i would love to see a true MOB HP TAKEN tracker as well as a PLAYER HP GIVEN tracker (again cause getting a 1000 hp heal is meaningless when i only need 100 hp).

Remove the PLAYER kill tracker is the best option imo, in a lot of quests with easy trash (coal chamber bats for eg) you can rack up a huge kill tally doing almost nothing!

redoubt
10-09-2010, 05:36 PM
I would like to see the following stats:

Total Damage Dealt
Total Damage Received
Total Healing Per Character

This is the way to look at it. It either needs to be very comprehensive of just forget about it.

And don't forget about:

Total monster immobilized for xxx seconds
--create a way to show the affect of CC
Neg levels removed.
Stat damage healed.
Damage negated (i.e. damage not received due to resist, protection, stoneskin, barkskin, DW etc credited to the caster of the spell.)

One stat I'd like to see is:
Damage dealt - damage received + hp healed to others + hp healed to self (Over healing and over killing doesn't count. Insta kills get credit for whatever hp was left.) I think this would be an interesting stat to look at overall value added to the group.

khaldan
10-09-2010, 05:57 PM
Or, instead of having turbine make all of these mechanics, just have turbine make a combat log and then only the people who want to can see their dps and all those other figures.

Something for everyone, there.

DevilButcher
10-09-2010, 06:19 PM
Or, instead of having turbine make all of these mechanics, just have turbine make a combat log and then only the people who want to can see their dps and all those other figures.

Something for everyone, there.

100% agreed, they should improve the exsisting cobat log to show more optional texts to choose from. would save us from needing to go to PvP areas testing bugs for the DEVs... sorry but that does kinda peeve me, since I BET they have a program on there closed server they test such things.

Uska
10-09-2010, 06:35 PM
NO and the kill count should just be a total killed we dont need to know who killed it.

Max2000
10-09-2010, 07:18 PM
Blizzard stated the information from dps meter in wow is often misinterpreted by community, and such feature will not be supported in their future titles.

The dps meter is an awesome feature, but only when used correctly.

/not signed

khaldan
10-09-2010, 07:50 PM
Blizzard stated the information from dps meter in wow is often misinterpreted by community, and such feature will not be supported in their future titles.

The dps meter is an awesome feature, but only when used correctly.

/not signed

While true, I haven't heard anything from blizz on the subject in the time I was playing (Patch 3.1-just before Halion came out, about a year and half of game time.) Yes, the information is sometimes misinterpreted, it doesn't always happen. Heck, most of the people I dealt with actually knew what they were doing with dps numbers and how to compare them to eachother.

Of course, I don't play WoW anymore for multiple reasons(the community, inability for a few people to not stand in fire), but misinterpretation of dps didn't happen too often.

We might be talking about different types of misinterpretation though, so just to make sure, what do you mean by it?

CaptainCameo
10-09-2010, 08:05 PM
I just look at the kill count to play. I once got in a killing competition with a rogue in VoD. We were both pretty even in the end (11 kills for me, 13 kills for him) but the king of kills ended up being the wizard who made a bunch of bats explode (jumped to 17 kills at the end.)

So yeah, kill count doesn't mean that much. It's more or less just to play with. Imo, it's the same as people putting what raid bosses they've killed in their bios. I just don't care. It might seem great to you, but I'll bet you didn't solo kill the beast did you?

maddmatt70
10-09-2010, 08:09 PM
Let me reiterate why a DPS meter is necessary. We need some transparency when it comes to builds and classes.

Example 1: There was just a 44k viewed post on the nerf to the Monk touch of death ability what it featured was rampant speculation with very little facts if we had the data to back this up one way or the other one of the two sides would be satisfied.

Second example is archery over and over I read and hear how archers are gimped, but nobody factors in the ever ellusive improved precise shot damage it would be very nice if we had an accurate dps meter for a quest.

Example number 3 rogues and fortification we see all the time lfms which do not want rogues, but rogue lovers claim rogues do the highest or great dps so lets see who is right with numbers/data to back claims up.

Example 4: thf are less effective then twf alot of people claim, but nobody can really say for sure how much glancing blows matters with a high degree of certainy and in fact I feel the developers are not sure one way or the other. So lets get some actual data so if the developers need to tweak thf they can and they do it well.

There are many more examples. A dps meter would make DDO a better game and more transparent. Transparency is something that as a customer I think a product should have.

Xeraphim
10-09-2010, 08:10 PM
You can be a terrible dps'er and just manage to get the last hit. I feel Kill count is missleading. I want to know who has high dps when I make my group.

If DDO had a DPS meter then the stats can be posted on the forums per server (braging rights).

If we get DPS meters, I want DPS intake meters.

That barb dealing 10 damage per second more than I am? I want everyone to see that he is taking 160x the damage I am.

Kill counts are pretty ok, DPS meters are for the mentally sick.

RTN
10-09-2010, 08:31 PM
Meh, just ignore the relatively meaningless kill count. Who cares, anyway.

We don't need a DPS meter, either. Why reduce this all to numbers? Then the ridiculous screening and e-peen measuring will reach new heights of absurdity. It's already relatively easy to figure out who does decent DPS vs poor DPS. That is all that really matters.

khaldan
10-09-2010, 08:35 PM
Meh, just ignore the relatively meaningless kill count. Who cares, anyway.

We don't need a DPS meter, either. Why reduce this all to numbers? Then the ridiculous screening and e-peen measuring will reach new heights of absurdity. It's already relatively easy to figure out who does decent DPS vs poor DPS. That is all that really matters.

It already is just numbers. I'd just like to know what they are.

krud
10-09-2010, 08:36 PM
As the dps meter gets higher our muscles should bulge and our veins should pop out. If we redline it, maybe our eyes will pop out and steam will spurt out our ears like it does in the cartoons.

Jaid314
10-10-2010, 02:04 AM
i dunno. i'd love to have the current combat log, as is, readable by an outside program. just the stuff our player can see, and it only goes to the individual player so they know how to read it (in theory, someone could devise some sort of peer-to-peer communication system that ranks everyone, but since you'd have to be downloading the tool and using it to be ranked, it would be entirely optional... and as something external, i bet a lot of people wouldn't use it)

then let the community build the tools. clerics can see how many times people needed to be healed, dps can see how often they hit in epics (and therefore get an idea of whether or not their bonus to hit is high enough). casters and trip/stun melees can see how often they're getting saved against, rogues can see what mobs their diplo works on, etc.

now granted, someone will have to write a program that looks for certain strings and can use that information to build a tool that actually makes sense of it all before i'd really want to use it, but i bet something would be out within a week or two, with steadily more sophisticated tools becoming available over time. why would i want this, you ask? well, sometimes i've got 5 or 6 numbers popping up each hit, sometimes i get several hits at once, and it's really hard to keep track of how many times a mass-targeted effect is actually landing sometimes.

now granted, the tool could be more accurate if it had everyone's information. but just being able to test it yourself would be advantageous, imo. hard data is a lot more reliable than rough estimates, and i'd love to be able to see how well my various characters do in different situations.

(as far as showing it to all in the group, i don't see a particular need for that. typically, my biggest test of whether someone is contributing tends to be "how often do they die", personally. if they die once in a quest, they probably have a sufficiently good concept of what they're doing that they're contributing. if they die 10 times, odds are good they don't know what they're doing, and are probably not contributing (though there are occasional exceptions)

whitepawn
10-10-2010, 12:09 PM
I for one, as a rogue, am sick to death of being told I have lower dps than the monk in party, based on a difference of 3 killing blows. If it's right, fantastic, but I have too much science training. SHOW ME THE DATA.

When it is ALL the hard data people have, it's ALL they can use to make an interpretation.

Some of the zergers I've met zerg just to stack the kill count....if they get there first after all....

Ran into a tempest ranger in TS many levels ago whom everyone believed was a god of dps based on kill count. I stood an the backside of the line in more than one group of mobs, watching him. He did NOTHING until the health bar dropped, then he would swing a kopesh and take the killing blow. But, numbers don't lie, after all, so he was top dps (insert sarcasm...)...how effective is that when you hit the actual boss?

Dumping the entire combat log into a mob would be usefull. Vorpals, pks, banish (spell and weapon)....would all be counted ALONGSIDE actual dps numbers. And damage taken. And healing given. And healing received. And so on. Let's face it, a lot of the tricks you can use on trash are utterly ineffective on a boss. There can be an amazing amount of difference between "dps" parsed by entire mission (trash) and just the boss(es).

There have been mods in other games that have done just that. There was even one that included an activity meter. Amount of time spent DOING SOMETHING....i.e. hitting buttons, movement, etc...in an encounter, again parsable by entire mission vs. just the boss.


Would a dps meter be abused? YES. Would it be an improvement on the current system? YES.

/signed.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-10-2010, 12:22 PM
The game doesn't need the meter, the fans can easily create one..

The devs just need to add a very simple option to the game.. Ability to dump the combat log to a text file in realtime.

Then fans could create a parser to show us the DPS.

Almost every mmo has an option like this, yet nearly 4 years later ddo still doesn't.

+1

This is in fact we need. We don't need a way to epeen compare in quests, or discourage supportive play such as a wiz casting mass hold instead of fingering, we need a clear and easy way for people to judge and measure their own builds in a meaningful way.

And it goes way beyond DPS, it would let us capture things like average rolls on skill checks over time, damage taken, actual rate of crits on spells cast, etc.

SiliconShadow
10-10-2010, 12:38 PM
In turbines other game they have chat logging, this allows you to do whatever you want with your dps logs etc.

I would put this as an option to have, then you can do anything you want with the data, it would also help a lot of us with some of the statistics which we try and collate about the game.

RTN
10-10-2010, 01:29 PM
This is in fact we need. We don't need a way to epeen compare in quests, or discourage supportive play such as a wiz casting mass hold instead of fingering, we need a clear and easy way for people to judge and measure their own builds in a meaningful way.


Except it would be used for little besides comparing e-peens or demanding that people follow the precise path to the absolute best statistical DPS build. People would start demanding that people post or share the DPS stats so that they could exclude (and I come from a raid/epic heavy guild). Viability isn't how it would end up being used, but rather demanding we all follow the same Min/Max cookie cutter build (or possible couple builds).

There are a few parameters that are useful (CON isn't a dump stat, for example, or getting DR breakers), but beyond that is gets into what are ultimately e-peen measuring contests. Adding hard DPS stats won't change that.

SiliconShadow
10-10-2010, 01:50 PM
Except it would be used for little besides comparing e-peens or demanding that people follow the precise path to the absolute best statistical DPS build. People would start demanding that people post or share the DPS stats so that they could exclude (and I come from a raid/epic heavy guild). Viability isn't how it would end up being used, but rather demanding we all follow the same Min/Max cookie cutter build (or possible couple builds).

There are a few parameters that are useful (CON isn't a dump stat, for example, or getting DR breakers), but beyond that is gets into what are ultimately e-peen measuring contests. Adding hard DPS stats won't change that.

I helped to build and maintain a dps application in LOTRO using the log file dumping, the exodus log file dumper with rise.

Now this was never used for the such, it just allowed each individual who wanted to tweak thier items and find the best advantages, disadvantages in a situation that they could.

If someone wants to know the information for thier own use why stop them? DDO is to varied for a cookie cutter contest it is extremely rare for two builds to be identical ever and it will remain that way, however it may change whether someone wears one armour in a situation over another, or one weapon over another? Or even find out that a certain piece of equipment is useless and they can find something else.

It is more of a helper tool than a e-*****, at the end of the day each class should have a balanced advantage and we will clearly be able to get the game rebalanced for a start if this information is freely pooring in from statistics.

Some people like that in a MMO, turbine provide this in other MMOs it would be awesome to see it here, not for e-***** but more of less hearsay and a more transparent view.

Beerina
04-23-2011, 09:24 PM
The problem with DPS meters is people will try to go nuts with it. As mentioned, you can cause your cleric, and by extension, the entire group heartaches.

Been running the Shroud runups for ingredients, and use my paralyzers. It helps a lot. But I lose compared to people going pure DPS. I don't have to, I choose to. My +5 holy of pure goods do very nicely, thanks.


Worse, in a crowd, I paralyze something, then move on to paralyze the next, more of a CC than even damaging. Thus even at that I fail to get the kills when I otherwise would!


So my kill count suffers over using my +5 holy of pure goods (one swapped out for my tier 1 green steel, which beats it by a hair!)

Having said that, I've acquired paralyzers of pure good for a little extra dps, but it still isn't the end-all to damage.



If someone creates a dynamic DPS meter, PLEASE INCLUDE DPS divided by MY SORRY ASS GETS HEALED BY CLERIC ratio on the display, too. Then we can see who's getting the most bang for the buck, DPS-per-cleric-heal-wise, too.


Ya wanna brag? Ya can be embarrassed, too! All it takes is 1 wipe to eat up all the zerg time savings of 10 or 20 fast runs.

sweez
04-23-2011, 09:39 PM
This game is pretty non-competitive

Well that made me laugh

Bladedge
04-23-2011, 10:00 PM
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i208/bladedge/Misc/Thread_Necromancy.jpg.

Uska
04-23-2011, 10:54 PM
dps meter hell no! change kill count to a total for the party only hell yes

Uska
04-23-2011, 10:56 PM
I helped to build and maintain a dps application in LOTRO using the log file dumping, the exodus log file dumper with rise.

Now this was never used for the such, it just allowed each individual who wanted to tweak thier items and find the best advantages, disadvantages in a situation that they could.

If someone wants to know the information for thier own use why stop them? DDO is to varied for a cookie cutter contest it is extremely rare for two builds to be identical ever and it will remain that way, however it may change whether someone wears one armour in a situation over another, or one weapon over another? Or even find out that a certain piece of equipment is useless and they can find something else.

It is more of a helper tool than a e-*****, at the end of the day each class should have a balanced advantage and we will clearly be able to get the game rebalanced for a start if this information is freely pooring in from statistics.

Some people like that in a MMO, turbine provide this in other MMOs it would be awesome to see it here, not for e-***** but more of less hearsay and a more transparent view.

I think your wrong I have never not seen a dps meter not used to cause problems by some people it always creates more problems then it solves.

skunk
04-24-2011, 12:25 AM
You can be a terrible dps'er and just manage to get the last hit. I feel Kill count is missleading. I want to know who has high dps when I make my group.

If DDO had a DPS meter then the stats can be posted on the forums per server (braging rights).

/not signed.
Go back to wow.

norman_quickfinger
04-24-2011, 12:31 AM
DPS meter = griefing.
We have enough of that going on in the game as it is.

/not signed

Deathlos
04-24-2011, 01:07 AM
Necro!

And /signed I think a Dps meter would be a interesting thing to have. Like shade said, allow the combat logs to be dumped into a program that does it, aint like itd be all that hard. and since you dont have the combat logs from other people, or the fact that not everyone will download it. it becomes more of a tool for builders. some E-peens contests will happen, but thats going to happen anyhow.
But this compared to killcount.

Killcount contributes nothing towards your char, doesnt mean anything except you got the kill, which there are several ways to do even with a 50/dps at lvl 20.

Now dps meters, tells you how much damage your doing, you can post it along with your build for more information. when you tr and reach 20 agin you can tell if your new choices significantly improved your build or not. and you can compare with other similar builds to make the best dps possible that you can do via that build.
You can compare LIT II or MIN II on bosses to find out which is truly the best dps possible. or a +5 holy Kophesh of greater evil outsider bane and see if it makes up for not having the silver bypasses. I believe that the dps meeter will help ppl fine tune their chars. while not significantly increasing the Epeen contests.

and this comes from a monk that stuns the non controlled mobs rather then trying to stay around and get max kills/dps.

wax_on_wax_off
04-24-2011, 01:39 AM
I'd prefer a personal DPS meter. I can get the argument that a DPS meter would be bad because it would allow people to easily discriminate against other people. However, a personal DPS meter for your own benefit, that you can share with others (truthfully or not) would be a good way to do it I think.

When questing, DPS is more about playstyle than pure numbers. Being fast, aggressive and not dying are the quickest ways to a good amount of DPS/kills. Raids are a different matter obviously as they are closer to the vacuum that we all use to determine our DPS numbers.

Yokido
04-24-2011, 01:52 AM
Damage dealt and received, yes.. But put it in a non-copy-able format so people can't brag without a screen'shot, I'd rather not be bugged half through a raid about how much somebody's doing with formidable evidence of them doing it.

/signed ^

Doxmaster
04-24-2011, 02:04 AM
What about changing the kill counter so that it works on who did the highest % of damage to the mob instead of who did the last hit

Well...this would produce the opposite of what people have complained about: one guy would charge ahead and beat everything to less then half, but move on instead of finishing it so he can 'get more kills'. Everyone else has to clean up after him. He would probably soak up the most healing, but his kill count would be insane high. As would the repair bills and scroll bills.

I'm 100% in favor of 'Damage done' trackers...along with 'Amount of healing done' and 'damage taken'. That would, unfortunately, break the suspension of disbelief...perhaps it could be included as an optional setting.

Uska
04-24-2011, 02:04 AM
Let me reiterate why a DPS meter is necessary. We need some transparency when it comes to builds and classes.

Example 1: There was just a 44k viewed post on the nerf to the Monk touch of death ability what it featured was rampant speculation with very little facts if we had the data to back this up one way or the other one of the two sides would be satisfied.

Second example is archery over and over I read and hear how archers are gimped, but nobody factors in the ever ellusive improved precise shot damage it would be very nice if we had an accurate dps meter for a quest.

Example number 3 rogues and fortification we see all the time lfms which do not want rogues, but rogue lovers claim rogues do the highest or great dps so lets see who is right with numbers/data to back claims up.

Example 4: thf are less effective then twf alot of people claim, but nobody can really say for sure how much glancing blows matters with a high degree of certainy and in fact I feel the developers are not sure one way or the other. So lets get some actual data so if the developers need to tweak thf they can and they do it well.

There are many more examples. A dps meter would make DDO a better game and more transparent. Transparency is something that as a customer I think a product should have.

I disagree it would be a large step toward ruining the game period

Blank_Zero
04-24-2011, 02:13 AM
I say the Export option.

Parsing is more effective.

It would also add an easier option for macroing/user add-ons.

PinkDragonJr
04-24-2011, 03:18 AM
/signed.
i like this idea.
As a THF fighter i am sick of taking an opponent down to 5% of his health bar only so that some monk of rogue or *shudder* firewall to get that last strike in with their faster attack rate and get the kill score. Switching to a DPS counter would not only be a more accurate recording method but help shut up all those arrogant self-absorbed rogues/monks that like to cry how l33t they are based on the kill counter.

PS - Still keep the overall kill counter for XP bonus reasons. or have 'Kills - Total Damage' listing for each player instead of just kills.

HallowedOne
04-24-2011, 03:27 AM
"Sorry, I won't accept you. According to my spreadsheet, last time I accepted you your DPS was lower than 1337.811110. Go back to Harbor, noob"

licho
04-24-2011, 03:48 AM
/not signed

Such ideas only support those who thinks that their individual killcount/dps/whatever matters, or anyone care about it.
Its enought fun with players posting their: killcount, weapons, crits in party chat.

Also its not Turbine duty to fight "bad habbits" of community, like kill hunting, if you recognize you do not like somebody's playstyle, just dont group with him, or ignore him, and play with folks you like.

On the other side, some kind of combat log in output would be handy for some, if they care for detailed analyze what happens. So this is decent idea.

phum
04-24-2011, 05:07 AM
Except it would be used for little besides comparing e-peens or demanding that people follow the precise path to the absolute best statistical DPS build. People would start demanding that people post or share the DPS stats so that they could exclude (and I come from a raid/epic heavy guild). Viability isn't how it would end up being used, but rather demanding we all follow the same Min/Max cookie cutter build (or possible couple builds).

There are a few parameters that are useful (CON isn't a dump stat, for example, or getting DR breakers), but beyond that is gets into what are ultimately e-peen measuring contests. Adding hard DPS stats won't change that.

Adding the stats will only make it worse. It will intensify how new players view dps and the chorus of dps is everything will only get stronger. For some1 who enjoys making builds, the worst case scenario is pretty much a nightmare. If the dps barriers to raids are introduced, my maybe a bit exaggerated guess is about 80% of viable and fun builds are flushed down the toilet as they are not fun, if eventually no raid accepts them. No added WoW mentality pls..

If a meter is added, every1 knows their own dps, and it will begin to be asked when applying for raid even if the dps numbers will not show to all. I believe it would eventually affect game play and I see nothing good about the effect.

Best solution (repeated many times in this thread): remove kill count

phum
04-24-2011, 05:08 AM
Except it would be used for little besides comparing e-peens or demanding that people follow the precise path to the absolute best statistical DPS build. People would start demanding that people post or share the DPS stats so that they could exclude (and I come from a raid/epic heavy guild). Viability isn't how it would end up being used, but rather demanding we all follow the same Min/Max cookie cutter build (or possible couple builds).

There are a few parameters that are useful (CON isn't a dump stat, for example, or getting DR breakers), but beyond that is gets into what are ultimately e-peen measuring contests. Adding hard DPS stats won't change that.

Adding the stats will only make it worse. It will intensify how new players view dps and the chorus of dps is everything will only get stronger. For some1 who enjoys making builds, the worst case scenario is pretty much a nightmare. If the dps barriers to raids are introduced, my maybe a bit exaggerated guess is about 80% of viable and fun builds are flushed down the toilet as they are not fun, if eventually no raid accepts them. No added WoW mentality pls..

If a meter is added, every1 knows their own dps, and it will begin to be asked when applying for raid even if the dps numbers will not show to all. I believe it would eventually affect game play and I see nothing good about the effect.

Best solution (repeated many times in this thread): remove kill count

edit: nice necro:D

dogonovo
04-24-2011, 05:10 AM
IBUTD (In Before Undeath To Death)

So besides having a tool that people use to judge others based not on their playing but rather on their pixels (MyDDO), some people want yet another tool that judges something that cant be judged by a machine, which is the quality of the player behind the said pixels. For every squishy rogue that dies because of their 150 HPs and no Fort, there is a 1256152612 HPs Barbarian that dies because of lack of skill. For every top DPS build that is played poorly there is a non-optimal DPS build that is played brilliantly.

No, just... No...


/absolutely, totally unsigned

Fensen
04-25-2011, 08:57 PM
Keep the overall kill count for purposes of the in-quest xp bonus.

Drop the individual kill count as it is completely meaningless.

Do not add damage/heal/other counters as they too are meaningless. In a group what matters is each person doing their part. If the group succeeds, then you know each person is doing what they need to. If the group fails, having the ability to do a performance evaluation is meaningless because, honestly, who would stick around to go through it anyway.

Quarterling
04-25-2011, 10:00 PM
Switching to a DPS counter would not only be a more accurate recording method but help shut up all those arrogant self-absorbed rogues/monks that like to cry how l33t they are based on the kill counter.

Are you saying rogues aren't dps? :D

PinkDragonJr
04-26-2011, 12:54 AM
Are you saying rogues aren't dps? :D

they never have been. leave them to their traps. :)

furbyoats
04-26-2011, 02:38 AM
I would like to have one, if not for a group window...at least an option to switch it on for personal use.

I think it would be useful (in the personal setting) to help optimize gear...if it were split into types or what the origin was it could also shine light on exactly how effective some guards are.

/signed

sure why not :D

PwnHammer40K
04-29-2011, 07:45 PM
/signed

Long overdue.

Cetus
04-29-2011, 07:55 PM
I think friendly competition is tons of fun and it would add tons of flavor to the game. Absolutely signed.

baletraeger
04-29-2011, 08:00 PM
Just my opinion of course, but the reason why we all love this game over any other MMO is that things are different here, like focusing on teamwork and tactics as opposed to DPS and HPS (heals per second) rates.

Gnorbert
04-29-2011, 08:55 PM
If someone so much as MENTIONS "gear score" in a group I will black list every person they have ever known... ever.

svinja
04-30-2011, 11:52 AM
Just my opinion of course, but the reason why we all love this game over any other MMO is that things are different here, like focusing on teamwork and tactics as opposed to DPS and HPS (heals per second) rates.

This is not true, anyone who's ever done progression raiding in WoW will tell you that DDO has very little teamwork and tactics. The reason I love the game is the variety and creativity the character building system allows, the ability to approach quests in different ways, the fact that not every class needs to be equal in every respect, and stuff like that. I enjoy this game a lot but it's ridiculous how many people flaunt even its weaknesses as its strengths. :D

For similar reasons I don't think a DPS meter would help in this game, although I wouldn't mind it. I would like to have a tool like Recount for all the information it provides, not so much DPS numbers.

curiousgis
04-30-2011, 11:59 AM
/signed Ability to dump the combat log to a text file in realtime and location info

kmau
05-01-2011, 10:48 AM
/not signed

DDO should stay D&D, not eSports like WoW.

vcntmnd
05-01-2011, 10:57 AM
There's too many posts in this thread to more than skim over, but have any of you voting for a DPS meter considered how much damage that will do to the game? I think it will utterly destroy it.

Ravoc-DDO
05-01-2011, 10:59 AM
I'd rather see more party role versatility & strategic play than the dumb zerging with the only determining factor being dps...

sly_1
05-01-2011, 11:13 AM
I guess my question is, who should get credit for what?

the 15% extra dps the melee gets because the bard or wiz or sorc caste haste, shouldn't the caster get credit for that?

the +8 or 9 per blow extra damage each melee gets because a bard sang inspire courage... shouldn't the bard get credit for that?

the +1 per blow from a divine casting prayer, shouldn't the divine get credit for that?

Caster fod's an epic mob with 2500 hp, he gets credit for all 2500 hp, right?

etc.

If it truly broke down who contributed what to the actual party dps, the results of the dps'ometer would be surprising. I doubt you'd see very many melees at the top of the rankings, it would all be necro specced casters and haste bot bards.

thegreatneil
05-01-2011, 11:54 AM
A DPS meter, or (god forbid) A program such as A.C.T. is not needed for DDO.
This isn't that type of gameplay.
HERE there is CC insta kills and tactical play (such as ducking around a corner,trip, casting invis, charm spells....)
It's not (usually) "OK, tank against the wall, taunt the mob so we call all poke it in the back-side, healers on the tank."
I'm sure there are a few raids like this, but for average questing, it's not the norm.

**I'm an old eq2 player: i used a.c.t. and raided ALOT (like 12+ hours 5 days a week). Now it listed everything, damage (incoming and outgoing), heals, % of total damage was what attacks, and more. Problem was it listed EVERYONE. So you dps isnt that good? cant get your spell order right? good luck getting groups & raids.