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Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 04:39 PM
I think you should get more XP for soloing a quest or doing it with fewer people. Just like in PnP, exp for an encounter is divided to all the characters.

Just disable it in quests that are known to be too buggy or easy for some classes to solo and impossible for others.

Take into consideration the casual player who logs on his lvl 15-20 toon and there are no groups to join for several hours. I've been in this situation several times, no groups to join and nobody joining if I make one; which I rarely do because I don't know the dungeons so I can't lead.

So to get anything done I end up soloing a quest, sometimes spending several hours and only getting 5k exp or so. The achievement feels rewarding but the xp doesn't, and I think I deserve 25k xp for being the entire party.

Some additional crazy suggestions:
Also to make it more fair for various soloers, the game could calculate your characters challenge rating or effective level based on what gear you have and then give you xp based on that.
For example a level 14 with the most expensive gear would be more like a lvl 17-20 casual player and can finish the quest quicker.

cardmj1
01-09-2010, 04:41 PM
nvm...

Lorien_the_First_One
01-09-2010, 04:43 PM
I think you should get more XP for soloing a quest or doing it with fewer people. Just like in PnP, exp for an encounter is divided to all the characters..

The difficulty is reduced if you are in a smaller party, so it already works out pretty much the same (lower EL should be lower XP and it isn't thus offseting the lack of division of xp)

Thriand
01-09-2010, 04:44 PM
I think I should get more xp for those rare times that I have the patience to drag 5 other useless people through the quest.... especially since dungeon scaling just makes it easier to solo it anyway.

Lithic
01-09-2010, 04:48 PM
I think I should get 5000exp every time I find the patience to round up a group of 6, and manage to get all 6 into the quest without a few getting lost, or being unflagged, or anything else.

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 04:50 PM
A casual player would have a lower CR and it would be an epic encounter to solo some of these quest. You leetsters with greensteel etc. should not get any xp at all :p

I'm just talking about making it possible for casual players to log on and get something done.

Some other crazy suggestions:
How about if I can't afford 500 cure serious wounds pots to solo whatever I want? It would feel rewarding to know that I would have lost 10xp for each pot I chugged anyway and managed to do it with no pots.

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 04:56 PM
The difficulty is reduced if you are in a smaller party, so it already works out pretty much the same (lower EL should be lower XP and it isn't thus offseting the lack of division of xp)

I didn't know that but I have noticed that it seems a bit easier to kill the mobs.
But it still takes a very very long time for some of the quests and the XP is way below what you should have got.

Calebro
01-09-2010, 04:58 PM
Rather than implementing a scaling of the XP for different numbers of party members, DDO has dungeon scaling for the difficulty of the quest itself for differing numbers of party members.
It basically equates to the same thing in the long run.

Thriand
01-09-2010, 04:59 PM
A casual player would have a lower CR and it would be an epic encounter to solo some of these quest. You leetsters with greensteel etc. should not get any xp at all :p

I'm just talking about making it possible for casual players to log on and get something done.

Some other crazy suggestions:
How about if I can't afford 500 cure serious wounds pots to solo whatever I want? It would feel rewarding to know that I would have lost 10xp for each pot I chugged anyway and managed to do it with no pots.

How about turbine already made it ridiculously easy to solo with dungeon scaling and are now offering the "casual" difficulty, if someone can't handle those options then I guess they can always resort to finding a group, I mean soling isn't mandatory and this is an MMO.

boldarblood
01-09-2010, 05:01 PM
The game should not give extra XP for solo, why encourage solo play in a MMO.

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 05:05 PM
It basically equates to the same thing in the long run.
No it doesn't.


How about turbine already made it ridiculously easy to solo with dungeon scaling and are now offering the "casual" difficulty, if someone can't handle those options then I guess they can always resort to finding a group, I mean soling isn't mandatory and this is an MMO.
No matter how "easy" it is, it still takes a long time because no casual player has the DPS to finish quests in 5 minutes.

And yes it is an MMO but what are you supposed to do in those cases when there are no groups? Dividing XP the real way is the only way you can get anything done if you have 2 hours to play and there are no groups.

BLAKROC
01-09-2010, 05:08 PM
A casual player would have a lower CR and it would be an epic encounter to solo some of these quest. You leetsters with greensteel etc. should not get any xp at all :p

I'm just talking about making it possible for casual players to log on and get something done.

Some other crazy suggestions:
How about if I can't afford 500 cure serious wounds pots to solo whatever I want? It would feel rewarding to know that I would have lost 10xp for each pot I chugged anyway and managed to do it with no pots.

your not talking, your whining, You want all the xp then do em on elite.:D

your idea is whack. that is all.........................

Junts
01-09-2010, 05:10 PM
No it doesn't.


No matter how "easy" it is, it still takes a long time because no casual player has the DPS to finish quests in 5 minutes.

And yes it is an MMO but what are you supposed to do in those cases when there are no groups? Dividing XP the real way is the only way you can get anything done if you have 2 hours to play and there are no groups.

Hp scales too, foo.

Pretty massively. I can go walk into a level 19 quest on normal and the mobs will have 650-800 hit points when I'm alone.

If I get 5 more people to walk into the instance, that same mob will have ~1600-2000 hit points. And hit 5 times harder (for 40-50 per attack, instead of 10-15).

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 05:11 PM
your not talking, your whining, You want all the xp then do em on elite.:D

your idea is whack. that is all.........................
And your spelling is whack, what's your point?

Please tell me why this is a whack idea, it would only add to the game, not take anything away from it.
Can you come up with a better idea to get something done in this game when you have 2hrs to play and there are no groups?

Calebro
01-09-2010, 05:13 PM
No it doesn't.

Hp scales too, foo.

Pretty massively. I can go walk into a level 19 quest on normal and the mobs will have 650-800 hit points when I'm alone.

If I get 5 more people to walk into the instance, that same mob will have ~1600-2000 hit points. And hit 5 times harder (for 40-50 per attack, instead of 10-15).

Thus substantially increasing the "actual" (if not the quoted) challenge rating of the mob, which would have significantly raised the XP, which then got divided among the party equally, leaving you with approximately what you would have had if you were alone.

In short: Yes it does.

Junts
01-09-2010, 05:14 PM
And your spelling is whack, what's your point?

Please tell me why this is a whack idea, it would only add to the game, not take anything away from it.
Can you come up with a better idea to get something done in this game when you have 2hrs to play and there are no groups?

Because then every experienced player would solo because quests are not 6x faster for them with a full group.

Even if you undid scaling, twinked characters can solo pretty much all the way to the level cap, and quite easily.

Thriand
01-09-2010, 05:16 PM
No matter how "easy" it is, it still takes a long time because no casual player has the DPS to finish quests in 5 minutes.


You made the choice to go in solo, the quests are already easier, get better and complete them faster or make a group.



And yes it is an MMO but what are you supposed to do in those cases when there are no groups?
Step 1: Make your own group
Step 2: ??????
Step 3: Profit


Dividing XP the real way is the only way you can get anything done if you have 2 hours to play and there are no groups.

2 hours to play is plenty of time to get a casual gaming group together and get something done. Causing the xp to be "split" only gives more cause for people to not group and only hurts casual gamers in the long run.

BLAKROC
01-09-2010, 05:17 PM
And your spelling is whack, what's your point?

Please tell me why this is a whack idea, it would only add to the game, not take anything away from it.
Can you come up with a better idea to get something done in this game when you have 2hrs to play and there are no groups?

make friends, that tend to log on at the same time as you do.......................


and your idea would add nothing to the game except allow YOU to get mass xp for doing easy mode .................where is the win in that??

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 05:18 PM
Hp scales too, foo.

Pretty massively. I can go walk into a level 19 quest on normal and the mobs will have 650-800 hit points when I'm alone.

If I get 5 more people to walk into the instance, that same mob will have ~1600-2000 hit points. And hit 5 times harder (for 40-50 per attack, instead of 10-15).
Well it's definitely not five times harder. Not only because the mobs don't have five times more hit points in your rough example, but also you (your party) gets flanking bonus, your aura gives everyone boosts and so do buffs.
The 2000 HP mob will go down way quicker.

The point is I don't have the data to demonstrate it, but I'm 99% certain that there is no way a casual player can get good XP for soloing or running small groups (in the beginning at least). It WILL take much longer to bring the mobs down and the XP for that encounter is not as it should be.

Ironforge_Clan
01-09-2010, 05:19 PM
Please tell me why this is a whack idea, it would only add to the game, not take anything away from it.

I'm a casual player and I think these new ideas and changes are disgusting! What turbine is doing is making this game too easy! I've been playing for 3 years now and had to grind my way for every achievement I've earned. Now you f2p noobs get everything handed to you on a silver platter with an easy button.

Please stop this insane dumbing down of this game!

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 05:22 PM
Yes I'm sorry I'm whining but I get frustrated when I log on and there's nothing to do, so I spend and hour or two soloing something to get 5k exp.

Then I look in my DM Guide to see what I "should" have got from those encounters.
I know it doesn't work the same in a videogame but there HAS to be a way to divide it better :eek:

Thailand_Dan
01-09-2010, 05:22 PM
This has been discussed many times in the past, and the typical opinion is that this will actually encourage soloing/short-manning quests...a bad thing for a MMO. The current system makes it a bit easier on the player who just wants to solo, but does not reward them for doing it. If this was implemented, finding a group would be even harder. Why invite 9 strangers to do Reaver (especially since +3 tomes in any stat are now kept for TR), when you can 3-man it (EDIT: For 4 times the XP)? Think about it.

toughguyjoe
01-09-2010, 05:23 PM
No matter how "easy" it is, it still takes a long time because no casual player has the DPS to finish quests in 5 minutes.

Even a casual player can make a Cleric, take Maximize, and solo to level eleven. Load blade barrier. Never look back. Oh by the way, with your mana for healing, you don't have to chug 500 cure serious pots. Imagine that.




And yes it is an MMO but what are you supposed to do in those cases when there are no groups? Dividing XP the real way is the only way you can get anything done if you have 2 hours to play and there are no groups.

I've rarely had trouble finding groups. I see you play on Khyber (which i have only limited low level experience with) and Argonessen (been playing there since I started)

In my experience I find gorups quite easily on Argonessen, and I nomrally join pugs on my low and mid level rolls. Most of my slots are taken up by level 14+ toons, but bringing them all up I had very little trouble.

Maybe you come on at an odd time, I don't know.

You personally not being able to get a group to run quests does not mean they should give you quintiple XP for completing a quest on solo.

If this became the case all veteran players would primarily solo unti they hit level 10-14. This would kill the immersion of veterans in lower end groups, and further divide the froobs and vets.

We need to come together, so the froobs can learn. Not sequester ourselves in solo quests.

Hokiewa
01-09-2010, 05:24 PM
The point is I don't have the data to demonstrate it, but I'm 99% certain that there is no way a casual player can get good XP for soloing or running small groups (in the beginning at least). It WILL take much longer to bring the mobs down and the XP for that encounter is not as it should be.

Hence the term......casual......:rolleyes:

Junts
01-09-2010, 05:24 PM
Well it's definitely not five times harder. Not only because the mobs doesn't have five times more hit points in your rough example, but also you (your party) gets flanking bonus, your aura gives everyone boosts and so do buffs.
The 2000 HP mob will go down way quicker.

The point is I don't have the data to demonstrate it, but I'm 99% certain that there is no way a casual player can get good XP for soloing or running small groups (in the beginning at least). It WILL take much longer to bring the mobs down and the XP for that encounter is not as it should be.

But what you are neglecting is the limiting factor of defense.

Against the full strength mob, stoneskin is 20-25% damage reduction. A dr/3 item, like the golden greaves, is around 7%. This means that a -lot- of healing gets needed if you get hit a lot.

On the other hand, against the down-scaled mob, stoneskin is 66-100% reduction, and the golden greaves themselves are 30-33%. This means that through simple buffs or just static items, you can massively increase your endurance. While, say, a barbarian in the first situation may need constant heals because he loses 40ish hp per attack from 5-6 mobs in the pack (200-250 hp every time they all attack), that same barbarian, by hiself, is losing only 1-6 hp per attack (due to his barbarian dr). This means he can simply cruise through with little actual risk to himself. In practice, it takes nearly the same time because all 6 people in the above situation are not dealing damage, they are healing and buffing and doing other things that the player by himself never needs to, because the mobs are so very much less threatening, because the size of heals, and defensive abilities, does not scale.

This applies to everything from dr effects to elemental resistances, and it just massively nerfs incoming damage if you are remotely compentent at taking advantage of it. This makes the soloing easier and, in practice, often faster. You'll even skip shrines because you never have to do them, never have to stop and rebuff, etc, etc.

Calebro
01-09-2010, 05:24 PM
.... and the XP for that encounter is not as it should be.

You're right, it's not. Not if you're going by D&D's standards.
Take Kobold's New Ringleader as the perfect example.
You run in, jump a blockade, kill a hand full of kobolds and possibly a hobgoblin. Then you run down the hall, kill another handful of kobolds and possibly two more hobgoblins. Then you run down the hall, kill another handful of kobolds and an ogre.

So maybe 2-3 dozen kobolds, 1-3 hobgoblins, and an ogre.
For ~1200 xp
Look in your Monstrous Manual and see how much that would have been worth if the exact rules from D&D had been followed.
Then stop complaining.

toughguyjoe
01-09-2010, 05:25 PM
Yes I'm sorry I'm whining but I get frustrated when I log on and there's nothing to do, so I spend and hour or two soloing something to get 5k exp.

Then I look in my DM Guide to see what I "should" have got from those encounters.
I know it doesn't work the same in a videogame but there HAS to be a way to divide it better :eek:

Tip:

Run explorer areas. They tend be less deadly than quests, making them easier to solo. Also ranged has great advantage there and two hours in say, Searing Heights(i see you have a lvel 8 toon) would easily get him a good 15k XP. Run around, shoot things at range, collect rares and explorers when you can.

Thailand_Dan
01-09-2010, 05:40 PM
Just a suggestion here, but maybe you should roll another toon. I have no idea how many you already have, but having toons at different levels (or even different servers) often solves the mid-level blues, when it's hard to find groups. If there are no 10 - 12 groups, there may be some 6 - 9 groups. Clerics are needed at all levels, usually. Almost everyone needs a Haggle Bard to buy pots/scrolls for their other toons.

Once you hit high levels, you can usually find groups, and even if you can't, you can solo many things to get rare drops, or do loot runs.

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 06:17 PM
You're right, it's not. Not if you're going by D&D's standards.
Take Kobold's New Ringleader as the perfect example.
You run in, jump a blockade, kill a hand full of kobolds and possibly a hobgoblin. Then you run down the hall, kill another handful of kobolds and possibly two more hobgoblins. Then you run down the hall, kill another handful of kobolds and an ogre.

So maybe 2-3 dozen kobolds, 1-3 hobgoblins, and an ogre.
For ~1200 xp
Look in your Monstrous Manual and see how much that would have been worth if the exact rules from D&D had been followed.
Then stop complaining.

I don't remember that quest but I don't think they are 1hd (1/4 CR) Kobolds? because I haven't seen any mobs with that low CR.

But even if they are, 5 CR 0.25 Kobolds and one CR 0.5 Hobgoblin =
Approximately 600 Exp for a full lvl 1-3 group.

Then 5 Kobolds and 2 Hobgoblins about 750 xp

Then 5 Kobolds and one CR 3 Ogre about 1400 XP

For a total of 2750 to a lvl 1-3 player (I would give slightly more to a Lvl 1 than a lvl 3 just because I'm a nice DM)
Or divided by six = 558 XP each for some pretty easy encounters.

But those kobolds probably have warrior levels added to them and are higher than CR 0.25?

D&D is not a solo game, but if a single player got ambushed by those mobs and killed them all I would give HIM at least 3000xp

Bradik_Losdar
01-09-2010, 06:30 PM
Another great way to push a terrific grouping game into a grave....

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 06:39 PM
Another great way to push a terrific grouping game into a grave....
There is a way to balance it so that you're not higly rewarded by soloing, but still get the XP you deserve.
That's why I mentioned that it would only work for certain quests and also suggested that a characters effective level can be calculated by his gear/value.

Newbies being forced to group for quickest XP is "fine" except when you log in and there are no groups.

And soloing for max XP should not be the way to go either, that's not what I'm saying.
Just that when I solo I get about 25% of the XP per hour that I would have got if I was in a group. Of course I shouldn't get the same XP per hour, but at least 75% or something would be fair.
How the heck would that ruin the game or make everyone want to solo?

And yes.. I know that with some (a lot of) effort I can probably (get geared to) up to 75% of the XP per hour. And by knowing the quests by heart etc.

Calebro
01-09-2010, 06:42 PM
I don't remember that quest but I don't think they are 1hd (1/4 CR) Kobolds? because I haven't seen any mobs with that low CR.

But even if they are, 5 CR 0.25 Kobolds and one CR 0.5 Hobgoblin =
Approximately 600 Exp for a full lvl 1-3 group.

Then 5 Kobolds and 2 Hobgoblins about 750 xp

Then 5 Kobolds and one CR 3 Ogre about 1400 XP

For a total of 2750 to a lvl 1-3 player (I would give slightly more to a Lvl 1 than a lvl 3 just because I'm a nice DM)
Or divided by six = 558 XP each for some pretty easy encounters.

But those kobolds probably have warrior levels added to them and are higher than CR 0.25?

D&D is not a solo game, but if a single player got ambushed by those mobs and killed them all I would give HIM at least 3000xp

Or, you could try using the actual values instead. ;)

15 (by your numbers) kobolds @ 0.25 cr each = 15x300/4 = 1125
2 hobgoblins @ 0.5 cr each = 2x300/2 = 300
1 ogre @ cr 3 = 900
1125 + 300 + 900 = 2325
6 party members means 2325/6 = 387.5 each

You get 4 times this (instead of 6), so as I said, it's a fairly good way to do it rather than change the entire XP system.
In the long run, it's all about the same.

And yes, these are some pretty easy encounters, as you said. But in PnP these are a lot more dangerous as you have less hit points, spell slots instead of mana, less attacks, etc.
So in the easier version of the two (DDO vs. D&D = DDO easier) you actually gain MORE xp for an EASIER encounter.
In a group of 6, you gain ~3.5 more times the xp for the easier encounter.
In a solo setting, it's much closer to where it would have been in PnP.

I don't understand what you have to complain about.

Anderei
01-09-2010, 06:43 PM
The *casual* player doesn't care if he gets less XP/hour gaming or taking longer to level 20, why should he want to get there anyway, so he tops of to have to do raids? He just goes throw a dungeon and has fun. And before the dungeons in his level range are boring he gets easily to the next level range, without any XP enhancements you suggest.

You really take it from the wrong site, you're a powergamer who just can't powergame :)

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 06:53 PM
Or, you could try using the actual values instead. ;)
you actually gain MORE xp for an EASIER encounter.
In a group of 6, you gain ~3.5 more times the xp for the easier encounter.
In a solo setting, it's much closer to where it would have been in PnP.

I don't understand what you have to complain about.
You still don't understand? I'm talking about when you DON'T have a group of six and you still get the same amount of XP (which is too low XP for the encounter.)
You're just pointing out how DDO gives you too much XP for being in a group with super-easy encounters, and yes I agree.

Calebro
01-09-2010, 06:54 PM
Look at it this way:
This is a group game. You shouldn't get an extra reward for doing it alone. That's counter to the way the game was designed. If anything, you should get an extra reward for doing it with the group.
Oh, wait.... the extra xp *IS* like an extra reward....

Looks like it's working as intended.

Calebro
01-09-2010, 06:58 PM
OK, how about this then:

The game gives you extra xp if you play it the way it was *designed* to be played.
But also does *not* penalize you for playing it in any fashion you'd like.

Does that make more sense to you?

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 07:01 PM
I'm not overly excited about getting too much xp for being in groups with easy encounters.
And I'm not too ****ed off about getting too little XP for smaller groups, BUT I think it could be scaled slightly better.

I never said anything about getting rewarded for soloing.

Calebro
01-09-2010, 07:03 PM
I'm not overly excited about getting too much xp for being in groups with easy encounters.
And I'm not too ****ed off about getting too little XP for smaller groups, BUT I think it could be scaled slightly better.

I never said anything about getting rewarded for soloing.

Didn't you?
That was the first line of the OP.

I think you should get more XP for soloing a quest or doing it with fewer people. Just like in PnP, exp for an encounter is divided to all the characters.

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 07:07 PM
Sigh.. yeah more XP meaning more than you currently do.

I never said anything about getting extra rewards for soloing

You should get rewarded the XP you deserve. Everyone seems to jump to the assumption that I'm talking about 200% XP boosts per hour for soloing.

I don't see what the problems is, but still I had to make a bunch of posts to clarify a simple thing.

dunklezhan
01-09-2010, 07:08 PM
Hi. Casual player here. Casual new player. 2 hrs a night. Most nights, true. And I do play with a static group on most of them, which makes me fortunate.

On the nights when I don't play with a static group, I run alts. And I solo lots. And I don't see a problem. Most quests in my experience at least up to L6 where I am now on my non-static alts can be run at level, on normal - take the right hireling and you can do them on hard without too much difficulty. If I want to run through fast quests I do short ones. Or ones slightly below level - which gives me an XP penalty, true, but I can do more of them, so it evens out.

On 'normal' or above I get the same XP as I would in a group, and that's just fine, and certainly very fair. Its actually only marginally faster with a group if you're at level because of the scaling anyway, at least based on my experience with our 3-man static group, and we obviously are used to each other's playstyles, have complementary characters and so on. And of course, the dungeon has scaled to 3 players. We still have the occasional wipe - its not necessarily easy.

It is faster, for the reasons you gave earlier, but its not that much faster.

That they even thought to build in a solo setting for quests that used to require groups to even have a shot at them is outstanding. They even scale based on the number of people in your party to try to give you roughly the same challenge level.

This is a very good thing, and is more than fair. Why on earth should a solo player in an MMO advance faster than a player who uses their social skills to team up with other players - as is intended as it is an MMO? This just makes no sense.

So should you get more XP for soloing? No. Not at all. Even though I wipe more when playing at normal difficulty but on my own rather than in a group. Even though this is technically more challenging. This is supposed to be played in a group. If you're playing on your own that's a risk you choose to take. Your XP is personal - you get better faster, hopefully, not your character. Your character gets better just like anyone else's doing those quests at that difficulty setting.

Simple answer to your issue - want to get more XP for soloing? Run quests on hard and elite, not normal or solo.

Other than that, I really think it would be detrimental to the game to make it more 'profitable' to play alone. I really do.

For reference - I hardly ever PuG. I find it hard to play with strangers because I'm very self conscious because I don't know the game well enough, and I concentrate way too much on not letting the side down and not enough on getting the job done. But it is my choice not to PuG. The few times I've tried I've had no problems finding a group, and as I'm based in the UK I'm not exactly online during peak times. I do not feel the game designers owe me any further compensation for my own social inadequacies, when they already give me a solo mode for the vast majority of content.

EDIT - I do however think they need a tick box on the difficulty selection screen: 'turn off scaling'. This could be applied to all difficulty levels - including solo. This should not award more XP when short manning, but should offer better loot.

EDIT EDIT - I should point out that being based in the UK I'm typing this at 1am. It may not be as coherent as I'd like. Sorry.

Calebro
01-09-2010, 07:10 PM
When things like SP vs. slots, or the extra HP and extra attacks are taken into account, your effective ECL is going to raise.
This is going to lower the xp you'd get from any given encounter.
You *are* getting what you're supposed to get, you're just not forced to split it if you play with a group.

Eelpout
01-09-2010, 07:14 PM
Sigh.. yeah more XP meaning more than you currently do.

I never said anything about getting extra rewards for soloing

You should get rewarded the XP you deserve. Everyone seems to jump to the assumption that I'm talking about 200% XP boosts per hour for soloing.

I don't see what the problems is, but still I had to make a bunch of posts to clarify a simple thing.

Whether you agree with it or not, Dungeon Scaling has already done a form of what you are asking. If a dungeon is made easier with less players and still offers the same XP, the XP to effort quotiant seems to be just fine. Right or wrong you are more than likely not going to get any sympathy from people who have been here for 3+ years and were getting the same XP you are with no dungeon scaling while soloing or short manning.

Any extra xp/time boost given to players for short manning dungeons does take away from grouping and will continue to expand the issue of finding groups.

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 07:26 PM
Whether you agree with it or not, Dungeon Scaling has already done a form of what you are asking. If a dungeon is made easier with less players and still offers the same XP, the XP to effort quotiant seems to be just fine. Right or wrong you are more than likely not going to get any sympathy from people who have been here for 3+ years and were getting the same XP you are with no dungeon scaling while soloing or short manning.

Any extra xp/time boost given to players for short manning dungeons does take away from grouping and will continue to expand the issue of finding groups.

The XP to effort quotient probably gets better after years of gaming, but I still doubt it will get much higher than say 75%. If it does then the game already has a balancing problem (seeing as some of the players here claim they finish quests faster by soloing).

What would be the big deal with soloing for 75% of the XP/hour you could have got from grouping? You really think that would lower the amount of LFGs overall?

Like I said, I haven't done the numbers but I estimate I get about 25% of the XP per hour from soloing. Maybe 50% in quests I already know or have done with alts.
It could just be because I suck or am a newb, but I don't think it's just that.

I guess I'm the only one that has a problem with this. Oh well, if I play the game for 3 more years and know every single dungeon I'll probably figure out how to get faster exp from soloing than grouping, like some of you guys claim.

BLAKROC
01-09-2010, 07:27 PM
I'm a casual player and I think these new ideas and changes are disgusting! What turbine is doing is making this game too easy! I've been playing for 3 years now and had to grind my way for every achievement I've earned. Now you f2p noobs get everything handed to you on a silver platter with an easy button.

Please stop this insane dumbing down of this game!

/applause

Emili
01-09-2010, 07:34 PM
I get no xp now the way it is. :p

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 07:36 PM
This is kinda off topic but what silver platter are you talking about?
When I returned to the game as f2p I had to start with a 28 pt build and find sigils to level up.

Also there are less LFGs because I don't have all the quests in the game.
Also very little bank slots, limited auctions and a bunch of other stuff I have to grind for before I can even pay the gold for it.

What do I have that you had to grind for? :confused:

I should get epic rewards for soloing as a 28pt build with no turbine points (relax, I'm kidding).

SheaHalley
01-09-2010, 07:59 PM
Well you do realize even if you move at a casual pace eventually you can get more bank space, 32 point build, and free mods just by playing and accruing Turbine points and favor? This garbage of its not fair I have to spend the FREE points Turbine gives me for new content is the most moronic thing I have ever heard. This is a grouping game you are running a quest SOLO its the easiest setting the game has to offer why should you get more for it? It is your choice to run alone, I am on Khyber there are LFMs of every level at all times of the day, I am looking at 31, yes 31, right now. You are level 17 things should understandably get harder as the game progresses, so if you go at it alone then you suffer the consequences, it is your choice. Either expand your friends list or join a guild that suits your playstyle. But this crying that the game needs to be more solo friendly needs to stop they have done more than enough to cater to a play style that is the exact opposite of the Dungeons and Dragons spirit of grouping.

Steampunkie
01-09-2010, 08:19 PM
Well you do realize even if you move at a casual pace eventually you can get more bank space, 32 point build, and free mods just by playing and accruing Turbine points and favor? This garbage of its not fair I have to spend the FREE points Turbine gives me for new content is the most moronic thing I have ever heard. This is a grouping game you are running a quest SOLO its the easiest setting the game has to offer why should you get more for it? It is your choice to run alone, I am on Khyber there are LFMs of every level at all times of the day, I am looking at 31, yes 31, right now. You are level 17 things should understandably get harder as the game progresses, so if you go at it alone then you suffer the consequences, it is your choice. Either expand your friends list or join a guild that suits your playstyle. But this crying that the game needs to be more solo friendly needs to stop they have done more than enough to cater to a play style that is the exact opposite of the Dungeons and Dragons spirit of grouping.

This.

What you're suggesting (Division of XP/Solo XP alterations) is a Bad Idea. A "Standard" D&D team is Warrior, Thief, Priest, and Mage. That could be Paladin, Rogue, Druid, and Sorceror or some combination of the other classes. This Quartet is the basis of a D&D Group ("Five guys and a bag of dice it's Friday Night's game.") Suggesting that XP scale based on group size (I.E. Division) would either reward Solo players immensely (as they take on challenges built for 4-man groups which would inevitably become the "Baseline" XP) and Punish 5 or 6 man team by short-changing them XP.

I don't want to be punished for having several guildies online at once, or being a popular player. Heck! I play with my Boyfriend all the time in a DPS Fighter/Tank Paladin duo with pocket Cleric hirelings. Whenever guildies log in we immediately try to recruit a full team of 6 for the fun of it. Should we get LESS XP for being outgoing and interactive with our friends? It's counter-intuitive to the spirit of the game.

What about Hirelings? In standard D&D they get a cut of the XP (depending on DM anything from a full share to 1/2 share each) Would they count against the XP rewards of a team or not?

By requesting this change you either marginalize the big-teams or over-reward the small teams or both. And if a 4-man group is the "Baseline" XP total for quest completion... Well think of all the bards you just put out on the sidewalk to play with their instrument cases open, hoping for a few copper.

-Rachel-

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 08:36 PM
Well you do realize even if you move at a casual pace eventually you can get more bank space, 32 point build, and free mods just by playing and accruing Turbine points and favor? This garbage of its not fair I have to spend the FREE points Turbine gives me for new content is the most moronic thing I have ever heard.


Well I was just responding to someone who said f2p players get things on a silver platter.
I didn't mention anything about fairness. Wow you people love to find something to argue about, don't you?



This is a grouping game you are running a quest SOLO its the easiest setting the game has to offer why should you get more for it?

I wasn't talking about the solo setting that is available on only a few quests.
That's a whole other subject I'm not interested in.



It is your choice to run alone, I am on Khyber there are LFMs of every level at all times of the day, I am looking at 31, yes 31, right now.

Last time I was on there were maybe 20 something LFMs, but still no groups eligible for my Paladin, even when I looked at content I don't own.
I only have 4 character slots and logged in on my FvS (that I had to pay for, let's start an argument about that now...) And it took about 15 minutes before there was a group available for her without repeating a quest.

It's not always like that, but often enough to suggest that the servers don't have enough people? For an instanced based game?
Maybe if some servers merged there would be more players and groups available? But I'm sure you would find an argument against why more players would be a bad idea.



You are level 17 things should understandably get harder as the game progresses, so if you go at it alone then you suffer the consequences, it is your choice.

Well, I die less than I did at lower levels, raid groups in particular are way too easy.




Either expand your friends list or join a guild that suits your playstyle. But this crying that the game needs to be more solo friendly needs to stop they have done more than enough to cater to a play style that is the exact opposite of the Dungeons and Dragons spirit of grouping

Having more people on each server would probably fix everything, but if that's impossible then it needs to be slightly more solo friendly. Just slightly.
I can look at the who list and pretend every single player is my friend, and sometimes still find out that there aren't enough people who need the same quest I don't get 0XP for repeating.
Well that's a bit exaggerated, but someone will often get lower XP for repeating and is not happy about it.

Since this is a topic about XP, besides just grouping for the fun of it; out of 20 people on my friends list, an average of 3 might be on at any given moment and in rare cases maybe 1 of them can join for full XP in a quest we're not repeating.

The WHO list isn't really that big, so I CAN pretend the list is my friend list and spend 10-30 minutes to get a group together for full XP, or maybe 5-10 minutes if two or more servers would merge?



Dungeons and Dragons spirit of grouping.
In the Dungeons and Dragons spirit, if a player runs off from the group for some reason, the DM can't say "no you can't do that".
As a DM I can try to punish him in the form of ambushes etc. but if he kills them all he will get the XP he deserves.

SheaHalley
01-09-2010, 08:48 PM
Don't complain if there are no groups for high level free content because that does not really exist sorry. If you don't want to spend money that is your decision but ALL the content can not be free and at the same time can be earned for free with a little work. And it makes common business sense for the higher level content to be acquired either by money or points accrued thru favor. the whole game cant be free and yes most high level content that is run by people are paid packs.
And no server merges will not make a big difference because there are still NO HIGH LEVEL FREE quests for you to run. I hate to tell you but we all have to repeat quest in order to level there simply is not enough xp to hit cap without repition so that arguement is invalid. As far as the silver platter you brought up the bank space and 28 point build which can now be bought rather than grinded out like it used to be, so yes it was a huge pain.

Steampunkie
01-09-2010, 08:48 PM
In the Dungeons and Dragons spirit, if a player runs off from the group for some reason, the DM can't say "no you can't do that".
As a DM I can try to punish him in the form of ambushes etc. but if he kills them all he will get the XP he deserves.

Gonna respond to this really quickly....

That's -your- DMing method. In mine if a character decides he's going to be anti-social and run off? He's in for a world of hurt. Whether it be from Ambushes (Very rarely "Add" anything just to mess up my players) or he's going to get in -other- trouble. Like collapsing floors, triggered alarms, cave-ins. Lots of different things. If he's lucky enough to survive -without- the aid of his allies I won't give him any XP. Why? Because he was incredibly lucky, not good. He left the group for anti-social reasons.

Now if he had a good and solid In-character reason for leaving the group which overrode his need for a party and self-preservation; THEN He'd get XP for defeating the challenges.

However you're also referring to a wholly different situation. Not a character leaves the group to fight some monsters and get treasure on his own, but entire quests centered around him and him alone. As a DM I would wind up creating custom encounters for such a side-quest. Scaled to a challenge a solo character could handle. Thus the XP would be about 1/4 of the XP his normal 4 man team would get. Not full XP for a full team granted to one character.

-Rachel-

Memnir
01-09-2010, 08:57 PM
No.

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 09:02 PM
That's a weird way to divide it.
If 4 players encounters a CR 1 mob they get 300xp divided by 4, if one player encounters it he gets 300xp divided by one.

I look at experience as "what the character experienced".
You're saying if one player encounters a CR 1 mob you'd give him 75 XP?
That makes no sense to me.

I've never seen a player who separates from the group for the rest of the campaign, but they sometimes have to split up to do several things at once. And it doesn't make it antisocial since I have no problem running two tables and two encounters at once.
Each player is still in the room and has to wait for the same amount of rounds before it's his PC's turn.

They might be punished for splitting from the group but it would not be in the form of gimping the game mechanics that much.

Steampunkie
01-09-2010, 09:09 PM
No.

Where four players would encounter a CR 1 Monster at level 1 the solo player instead encounters a CR 1/4.

Basically something easier and worth less XP. He doesn't get to kill a Dragon Solo. He gets a Wyrmling.

-Rachel-

Linenoise2
01-09-2010, 09:15 PM
Then I look in my DM Guide to see what I "should" have got from those encounters.
I know it doesn't work the same in a videogame but there HAS to be a way to divide it better :eek:

When you look in the PHb how much XP does it say I need for 5th level? I got a 4th level character with 50k XP. :)

Let's put the PnP books away. They are only good as sources of inspiration for DDO. The numbers are entirely different fruits.

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 09:19 PM
Well that's how I would do it too, and the single player would spend about the same amount of time killing the 1/4 CR mob as the group would on the CR 1 mob. And in the end they get about the same amount of XP, the solo might get slightly less for that encounter for experiencing less.

But not 4 times less XP. If when they meet up again he's more than 25% behind (or ahead) it means I wasn't able to keep up enough balanced encounters while running two stories at once.
Maybe because I'm not a computer. It would be easier if I was.

I don't see what the problem is by giving him just slightly less XP. Or what the point is in penalizing him with one CR1/4 encounter and then telling him to "hold on, nothing more happens", or "no you can't go there" so he can't get more XP.

GeneralDiomedes
01-09-2010, 09:29 PM
I guess I'm the only one that has a problem with this. Oh well, if I play the game for 3 more years and know every single dungeon I'll probably figure out how to get faster exp from soloing than grouping, like some of you guys claim.

Its not about a solo player being able to do the dungeon faster, it's the effort putting a group together and dealing with AFKs. Often it's just faster to just run the damn thing yourself. Also, the more people who join, the greater the odds of there being a time drag like a newb who doesn't want spoilers, somebody who wants to do the optionals, etc.

The rest of your idea is a waste of your typing and our reading - it will never happen. Turbine does not make design decisions which increase the rewards for soloing.

Steampunkie
01-09-2010, 09:32 PM
Either you're being intentionally obtuse or you simply can't see a point beyond your own nose...

A) Spend money on the game. Expand your options. Have fun.

B) Limit yourself and complain at the limitations.

C) Limit yourself, complain about the limitations, demand global change which hinders other players and rewards anti-social behavior due to your inability to lift your own limitations while claiming it's for some "Greater Good" or to be closer to the source material.

You've chosen C. C is a poor choice.

-Rachel-

Calebro
01-09-2010, 09:32 PM
Turbine does not made design decisions which discourage grouping.

They already have. It's called Dungeon Scaling.
But that's just my 2cp

GeneralDiomedes
01-09-2010, 09:34 PM
They already have. It's called Dungeon Scaling.
But that's just my 2cp

Sorry, I worded it wrong (post edited) - they don't encourage soloing.

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 10:08 PM
When you look in the PHb how much XP does it say I need for 5th level? I got a 4th level character with 50k XP. :)

Let's put the PnP books away. They are only good as sources of inspiration for DDO. The numbers are entirely different fruits.
The XP needed to level in DDO is about 10 times more than in the PHB at higher levels and 5 times higher at lower levels. I think I know why they used one digit higher number but it doesn't make it that much more difficult to calculate for balancing purposes.

In the Kobold Ringleader example from earlier you encounter "2-3 dozen kobolds, 1-3 hobgoblins, and an ogre." for 1200xp. For a lvl 1 DDO character that would be about 1/5 on the way to leveling.

For a lvl 1 pnp character that would be like getting 120XP out of 1000 needed to level.
When by pnp rules he should be halfway to leveling.

Of course because this encounter would take much longer in PnP with everyone waiting for their turns etc, so it would be annoying to only be 10% on the way to level 2 at the end of it.

So when I say "I look in the DM Guide to see how much I should have got from those encounters" I do take into consideration that I need 5-10 times more encounters in DDO.

So it's only for encounter vs. encounter not for the actual number.
Out all of these posts, nobody has mentioned any implications of dividing the XP per character more like it should be. You would still get less from soloing and still get more from groups, it would just be more balanced.

Aiwendel
01-09-2010, 10:14 PM
Either you're being intentionally obtuse or you simply can't see a point beyond your own nose...

A) Spend money on the game. Expand your options. Have fun.

B) Limit yourself and complain at the limitations.

C) Limit yourself, complain about the limitations, demand global change which hinders other players and rewards anti-social behavior due to your inability to lift your own limitations while claiming it's for some "Greater Good" or to be closer to the source material.

You've chosen C. C is a poor choice.

-Rachel-
I never complained about the limitations of being f2p. That was just an off topic discussion for the people who love to argue about other off-topic pointless things.
I just wanted to prove them wrong about the silver platter thing.

I can pretty much do everything in this game that a p2p can, now.
I have 32 pt build, enough bank slots and Vale+Gianthold. I didn't get it on a silver platter but it was easy enough.

And when I uncheck the little "hide content I don't own" thing, I rarely see anything I don't have.
I mean I do every now and then, but that's not the main reason there aren't enough groups at my level.

quickgrif
01-09-2010, 10:25 PM
This game is easy enough to solo with all the mechanics they put in of late. I could solo before the new mechanics in place but it was much more of a challenge. The point is I can earn more xp now soloing then puging with a group with the current system. If you implement a system as you speak of I would earn drastically more xp soloing then ever grouping... no thank.

The problem is scaling prevents soloing from having any meaning to it like it once did. I mean this in the aspect of a challenge and the reward of conquering something normaly groups achieve. This achievment no longer has the same meaning as it use to.

I honestly think both scaling and casual level is overkill and if they implement casual I think they should remove scaling.

SheaHalley
01-09-2010, 10:31 PM
So your main problem is percieved lack of population? The reason you aren't seeing a lot of LFM's up are because most people are running in guild groups, static groups, or soloing. So you cant find groups now yet you want them to make it more lucrative to solo or short man by rewarding more xp, what sense does that make? You are facilitating the exact reason you can't find a group.
Another question is if you are confident enough to tackle these quests solo why would you not think you can lead a PUG thru? I think you probably have alot more skill than most people throwing up these Elite "enter quest here" Need opener!

gavagai
01-09-2010, 10:45 PM
I think the disconnect arises in thinking of DDO as a per-creature XP system. It isn't, though. It is objective based, and everyone who completes that objective gets the same XP.

The pacificist bard can solo a quest with a single kill and a pack of marauding warriors can hack til the blood stains their moutashes; but they complete the same objective, and get the same base experience. It's really quite a nice feature. Even with the "Slayer" quests there is no connect between XP and creature killed; a mini-boss and a mere drone give you the same +1 to the kill count. At a certain stage a player learns to worry less about killing and ransacking, and focus more on accomplishing the quest objectives and having FUN.

It's not about "Such-and-such XP divided by x people in the group." It is "We each completed the objective; here's the XP for that objective." That makes it more enticing to group, and also to play the adventure as bloody or as strategic as we feel like.

Think if we did with treasure what the OP suggested with XP: presume that a finite number of treasure from the chests would have to allocated between all the party members, rather than the current method of giving each player individualized chest-loot. We'd wouldn't be as eager to group if we knew we'd have to divvy up the same pool of treasure.

Oreg
01-10-2010, 09:08 PM
I almost didn't read past the first few posts until I saw the OP's join date. You have intrigued me into wondering how much have you been playing over the past 4 years or did you just come back? I am not making fun, I am genuinely curious.

Aiwendel
01-10-2010, 10:48 PM
I was a beta tester for this game and recently returned after finding out it went f2p.

Funny thing is I was posting a lot in the forums during the beta phase, (I think that's why my post count is so high but you can't find any of those threads now?)

One of them was a thread with a list of suggestions and things to add or change.
And the only thing on that list (I think) that hasn't changed so far is the XP balance :p

Not only did I find a bunch of bugs that were fixed during beta but I also suggested things like tavern brawl and pvp zones, open field instances (slayer), ransack penalty and some other stuff.

A lot of people were responding saying DDO will never add such things.

Calebro
01-10-2010, 11:30 PM
I think the disconnect arises in thinking of DDO as a per-creature XP system. It isn't, though. It is objective based, and everyone who completes that objective gets the same XP.

The pacificist bard can solo a quest with a single kill and a pack of marauding warriors can hack til the blood stains their moutashes; but they complete the same objective, and get the same base experience. It's really quite a nice feature. Even with the "Slayer" quests there is no connect between XP and creature killed; a mini-boss and a mere drone give you the same +1 to the kill count. At a certain stage a player learns to worry less about killing and ransacking, and focus more on accomplishing the quest objectives and having FUN.

It's not about "Such-and-such XP divided by x people in the group." It is "We each completed the objective; here's the XP for that objective." That makes it more enticing to group, and also to play the adventure as bloody or as strategic as we feel like.

Think if we did with treasure what the OP suggested with XP: presume that a finite number of treasure from the chests would have to allocated between all the party members, rather than the current method of giving each player individualized chest-loot. We'd wouldn't be as eager to group if we knew we'd have to divvy up the same pool of treasure.

That's the first time I've ever received the flattering "You must spread some reputation around before giving it to XXX again."
Well done.

ChaelaAnne
01-10-2010, 11:38 PM
You still don't understand? I'm talking about when you DON'T have a group of six and you still get the same amount of XP (which is too low XP for the encounter.)
You're just pointing out how DDO gives you too much XP for being in a group with super-easy encounters, and yes I agree.

Man, I wish, when I was playing PnP, my DM would run a whole dungeon just for me, so that I could solo it and get WAY more XP.

Uska
01-10-2010, 11:46 PM
NO they should give more for larger groups to encouarge grouping this is a mmo after all

SquelchHU
01-11-2010, 06:52 AM
If anything remotely similar to this went live, you would never see me grouping outside of a raid.

I already solo up to level 10 because it takes less time to kill everything myself than to get a party to do it, counting the time it takes to form the party, get the party to the quest, and get the party through the quest. If doing this also gave significantly more XP, good game groups.

And the raids? Most of the lower raids at least only require about 4 people to actually do anything anyways, so why not cut to the chase and just hit them all with three guildies? Triple XP for the win. If more than 4 people in the guild wanted to do it, just make more 4 man groups.

Such a change would single handedly assure just about any of the handful of LFMs left were noob groups (as everyone else would be soloing) and would also single handedly assure anyone not already used to grouping would be joining raids without group experience (further contributing to the four man guild only thing).

This is a terrible idea, and you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting it without thinking it through.

Uska
01-11-2010, 07:13 AM
And your spelling is whack, what's your point?

Please tell me why this is a whack idea, it would only add to the game, not take anything away from it.
Can you come up with a better idea to get something done in this game when you have 2hrs to play and there are no groups?

No it encourages solo play and its a group game, turbine already has a better mechanic that works better then your idea you just cant see it.

Uska
01-11-2010, 07:15 AM
Yes I'm sorry I'm whining but I get frustrated when I log on and there's nothing to do, so I spend and hour or two soloing something to get 5k exp.

Then I look in my DM Guide to see what I "should" have got from those encounters.
I know it doesn't work the same in a videogame but there HAS to be a way to divide it better :eek:

I can make a new character and solo quite a bit with no twinking period, I would get quite a bit more then 5k xp at least for the first few levels.

Vanda
01-11-2010, 07:41 AM
I think I should get more xp for those rare times that I have the patience to drag 5 other useless people through the quest.

I think I should get extra XP for role playing a slacker well enough to dupe others into running a quest for me while I sit around tossing back brews.