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Ayrleig
01-08-2010, 06:38 PM
Why are so many of the discussion on this forum about planning for maxing out one's character in one ability set or another (and avoiding the dreaded "gimping out") instead of considering our characters to have a natural progression for their fantasy lives?

This is not about technical competition (though I know you can do that in a saloon). It's about fantasy roleplaying...

...isn't it?

Freeman
01-08-2010, 06:39 PM
No. This is not PnP, this is an MMO based on the D&D ruleset. Roleplaying is entirely optional.

Ayrleig
01-08-2010, 06:41 PM
That's even a technical answer! :->

Lorien_the_First_One
01-08-2010, 06:43 PM
It's about fantasy roleplaying...

...isn't it?

No, it isn't. There are a small number of players who rollplay, but they could do that without the video game. This is a video game and RP in it makes as little sense as rollplaying that you are Mario.

Ayrleig
01-08-2010, 06:46 PM
You seem to have it upside down and backwards.

The way most people play here is like they're Marioizing the whole thing: Crash and Slash and Dash....

This is a computer simulation of D&D scenario adventures and dungeons (hence the name Dungeons and Dragons Online).

The video representation of play is wonderful. Videogamization of the whole thing in play style stinks.

Ghoste
01-08-2010, 06:54 PM
...isn't it?
I don't know, is that what it's about to you?

DasLurch
01-08-2010, 06:56 PM
There are groups of players on every server that like to play the way you are describing. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to play the game. It all comes down to preference. If you like the role-play characteristics of this setting, by all means try to play with those that have simmilar goals in their playtime. If you just want to have some fun and beat on some monsters, you can do that too, just as easily. :)

Ghoste
01-08-2010, 06:56 PM
You seem to have it upside down and backwards from what I'm used to and prefer.

The way most people play here is like they're Marioizing the whole thing: Crash and Slash and Dash....

This is a computer simulation of D&D scenario adventures and dungeons (hence the name Dungeons and Dragons Online).

The video representation of play is wonderful. Videogamization of the whole thing in my personal PnP play style stinks.
Correction highlighted.

There are others who play this game the way you like. Seek them out, leave the others alone.

Angelus_dead
01-08-2010, 07:07 PM
Why are so many of the discussion on this forum about planning for maxing out one's character in one ability set or another (and avoiding the dreaded "gimping out") instead of considering our characters to have a natural progression for their fantasy lives?
If I lived in a magical fantasy continent and had entered a career path involving close combat with zombies, devils, and dragons, then finding ways to get every tiny bit of effectiveness from training and equipment would occupy the majority of my waking hours.

What wouldn't be natural is for a dedicated adventurer to NOT try to maximize his power. Try going to your local military recruiter and ask them if they'll chill out on all the drilling...

Arvess
01-08-2010, 07:11 PM
traditional roleplaying in DDO sucks. Let's say you happen upon a Silver Flame garbed man in a tavern. He wants you to erradicate a den of heathens. You can tell him off and go kill some trolls directed to you by another quest giver. But let's say you want to investigate this foul den of heathens. No matter what character you are, the outcome is the same. Wouldn't a paladin's detect evil alert him to the fact that these are not the villans he is looking for? Can you talk to anybody in the quest? NO they run up and try to kill you. High charisma? High diplomacy? What are the applications of those...COMBAT! yes diplomacy is a combat tactic that gets used infrequently to bypass other combat opportunities and lessening your XP because you were good enough to avoid a fight. So you, a pure good but albeit misguided paladin, is forced to wade knee deep in the blood of the innocent to get to the end fight against more good innocent people who give you no option but to fight.
And then what...you get to do it again on hard and elite! ***!

As a whole, the game scales in such a way that if you don't focus your character, you will be ineffective. This is not even for raids but it the normal game play.

In short the game does not present you with choices. The main choices you get are build and gear...so that's why its most prominently discussed.

Quikster
01-08-2010, 07:22 PM
traditional roleplaying in DDO sucks. Let's say you happen upon a Silver Flame garbed man in a tavern. He wants you to erradicate a den of heathens. You can tell him off and go kill some trolls directed to you by another quest giver. But let's say you want to investigate this foul den of heathens. No matter what character you are, the outcome is the same. Wouldn't a paladin's detect evil alert him to the fact that these are not the villans he is looking for? Can you talk to anybody in the quest? NO they run up and try to kill you. High charisma? High diplomacy? What are the applications of those...COMBAT! yes diplomacy is a combat tactic that gets used infrequently to bypass other combat opportunities and lessening your XP because you were good enough to avoid a fight. So you, a pure good but albeit misguided paladin, is forced to wade knee deep in the blood of the innocent to get to the end fight against more good innocent people who give you no option but to fight.
And then what...you get to do it again on hard and elite! ***!

As a whole, the game scales in such a way that if you don't focus your character, you will be ineffective. This is not even for raids but it the normal game play.

In short the game does not present you with choices. The main choices you get are build and gear...so that's why its most prominently discussed.

There are no innocents. Kill em all and let god sort em out.

Temet
01-08-2010, 07:23 PM
traditional roleplaying in DDO sucks.

This. I never understood RPing in MMOs, they just aren't advanced enough to support it in my opinion.

Also, you forgot to mention the inability to slaughter the NPCs trying to railroad you (what's P&P without wrecking the DMs plot in favor of conquering the world?)

Still, @OP if you want to do it noone is stopping you. Just don't expect the rest of us to do it with you.

kuroi-koibito
01-08-2010, 07:40 PM
That's even a technical answer! :->

Hail goode Ayrleig! Myne gentil sirrah, know thee that the fouleste beastes of faire Eberron, such as the dread greye chikken y-clept Suulomades, are immune to the sylvere tongue of the rogue, the pietie of the righteouseste paladynne, the charmes of the most beauteouse drow (or the stumpieste dwarf, if that be hys thynge). The onlye langage these daemonnes understande is a khopeshe up the asse. Damage per seconde, it is as the Kinge in this lande.

Prithee, good sirrah, savest thou thy role-playinge for Thelanis Thurdayes, and addest thou more bylde poyntes into Stryngth.

Ayrleig
01-08-2010, 07:44 PM
There are groups of players on every server that like to play the way you are describing. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to play the game. It all comes down to preference. If you like the role-play characteristics of this setting, by all means try to play with those that have simmilar goals in their playtime. If you just want to have some fun and beat on some monsters, you can do that too, just as easily. :)

I appreciate and tend to agree with your answer, thanks. And even very roleepoley players (and the characters themselves, if they had a choice) would like to just test their mettle with some big though fakey brawling.

I'd just say it's unfortunate for the video game mentality to dominate so many multiplayer scenarios and that for multiplayer interaction, finding such a single-minded focus on maximizing throw-weight is more for World of Warcraft than a tradition aptly named "Dungeons and Dragons."

I enjoy DDO and I look forward to testing out the d20 online conferencing game that's become widely used, too.

And even better -- I suspect that somewhere, some people are working on taking high fantasy role playing to the next level, in sensory oriented play. This is an excellent step, consistent with D&D rules and factors. It would be nice if those people in their arcane development efforts were D&D people servicing that large market.

Kiralyn2000
01-08-2010, 07:46 PM
Even more than some MMOs, given the complexity of the skill/stat/bonus/combat systems in DDO - min/max seems to be the main focus of the game.

Or at least, that's the impression I get from reading the forums. ("If you're going to do X at high level, you need Skill/Feat/whatever Y completely maxed out. Otherwise, you'll fail." etc, etc, etc.)

Calebro
01-08-2010, 08:03 PM
("If you're going to do X at high level, you need Skill/Feat/whatever Y completely maxed out. Otherwise, you'll fail." etc, etc, etc.)

This is true.
And it isn't.

The fact of the matter is that, while these things will help you do it better, they aren't needed for completion. That horribly tough fight with the red-named-boss will last a few more excruciatingly long seconds if you're not optimized.

What I find funny is the "vets" who complain that the "newbs" aren't properly geared for the quest/raid, but refuse to let them come along to GET geared for the quest/raid.
You don't have a +5 metalline XX of pure good? How do you expect to get through DR? *dropped*
You don't have GS? *dropped*
You don't have a +1736 Intimidate? *dropped*

How can we expect the newer players to ever get up to what we consider par if we don't let them "pike" a bit first?
The fact of the matter is that just because they aren't optimized yet doesn't mean that they'll definitely be piking.
The fact of the matter is that we were ALL piking before. So how did we ever complete these quests to begin with?

Optimization is not needed, it will just speed things up if it's present.

Ingo
01-08-2010, 08:07 PM
Hail goode Ayrleig! Myne gentil sirrah, know thee that the fouleste beastes of faire Eberron, such as the dread greye chikken y-clept Suulomades, are immune to the sylvere tongue of the rogue, the pietie of the righteouseste paladynne, the charmes of the most beauteouse drow (or the stumpieste dwarf, if that be hys thynge). The onlye langage these daemonnes understande is a khopeshe up the asse. Damage per seconde, it is as the Kinge in this lande.

Prithee, good sirrah, savest thou thy role-playinge for Thelanis Thurdayes, and addest thou more bylde poyntes into Stryngth.

I wouldst fain add to thyne reputation, for thys is wondrous gode.

Ayrleig
01-08-2010, 08:16 PM
This is true.

Optimization is not needed, it will just speed things up if it's present.

Good observation!

And I find that the fun is in the challenge, not in bursting in a door, pressing a button and blowing up everyone but the the "good guys."

And, as with many pleasures, letting it last is more enjoyable than ending it quickly.

Calebro
01-08-2010, 08:19 PM
Good observation!

And I find that the fun is in the challenge, not in bursting in a door, pressing a button and blowing up everyone but the the "good guys."

And, as with many pleasures, letting it last is more enjoyable than ending it quickly.

I have these moments as well, and for those moments I log in with my permadeath toons.
Brings a new dimension to the game.
Maybe this is something that you'd enjoy....
Check it out.

Aranticus
01-08-2010, 08:20 PM
This is true.
And it isn't.

The fact of the matter is that, while these things will help you do it better, they aren't needed for completion. That horribly tough fight with the red-named-boss will last a few more excruciatingly long seconds if you're not optimized.

wrong. i've recently failed part 5 shroud 3 times because people were not optimised. factor in this, melees with 10 con, no hp gear, no fiend weapon, no fortification. have enough of them in a group and they will never be able to complete the raid as the healers will be spending precious resources ressing them as its much easier than keeping them alive

What I find funny is the "vets" who complain that the "newbs" aren't properly geared for the quest/raid, but refuse to let them come along to GET geared for the quest/raid.
You don't have a +5 metalline XX of pure good? How do you expect to get through DR? *dropped*

my loan bank for newbies

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc115/Aranticus/bank.jpg

You don't have GS? *dropped*
You don't have a +1736 Intimidate? *dropped*

you are exaggerating too much

How can we expect the newer players to ever get up to what we consider par if we don't let them "pike" a bit first?
The fact of the matter is that just because they aren't optimized yet doesn't mean that they'll definitely be piking.
The fact of the matter is that we were ALL piking before. So how did we ever complete these quests to begin with?

there is a difference when we had no knowledge of the raids and were exploring to improve our tactics and gear. atm, they know what is required

Optimization is not needed, it will just speed things up if it's present.

piking is never in my dictionary. are you going to let them pike their way until they get a min2? instead of letting them pike, why not help them out? you are saying all these stuff, but what have you actually done to improve the situation?

Ayrleig
01-08-2010, 08:20 PM
Correction highlighted.

There are others who play this game the way you like. Seek them out, leave the others alone.

Mario-izing the game/sim/experience for the great bulk of parties and mutual experiences should not be the rule. That's not D&D, with our without any roleplaying.

Ayrleig
01-08-2010, 08:22 PM
Are we getting piqued?

Ghoste
01-08-2010, 08:23 PM
Mario-izing the game/sim/experience for the great bulk of parties and mutual experiences should not be the rule. That's not D&D, with our without any roleplaying.
It's not? Not for you it would seem. Are you trying to tell me what it should be for me? That's certainly what it sounds like.

Calebro
01-08-2010, 08:27 PM
Aranticus: you're right. I was exaggerating, and quite a bit, but my point was that optimization isn't absolutely required for completion. The less people that are optimized, the less likely you are to complete.
No argument.
But that doesn't make it impossible.

bobbryan2
01-08-2010, 08:29 PM
How in the HECK is Marioizing a game meaning min/maxing character development.

That's a bit of a stretch at best... Unless we're talking Mario RPG.

Ghoste
01-08-2010, 08:30 PM
Aranticus: you're right. I was exaggerating, and quite a bit, but my point was that optimization isn't absolutely required for completion. The less people that are optimized, the less likely you are to complete.
No argument.
But that doesn't make it impossible.
This is true. I personally have yet to upgrade a single greensteel item. I have a blank g-axe on my fighter, and that's it. I get bored of grinding the Shroud.
How in the HECK is Marioizing a game meaning min/maxing character development.

That's a bit of a stretch at best... Unless we're talking Mario RPG.I didn't quite get what he meant by that either. Is he saying it's like mario bros where you have a set char to chose from and that's it? Meh, whatever. Just to **** him off, I say, yes. Let's all build identical characters and name them all some variation of "Mario".

Zippo
01-08-2010, 08:32 PM
No, it isn't. There are a small number of players who rollplay, but they could do that without the video game. This is a video game and RP in it makes as little sense as rollplaying that you are Mario.

Not to be too technical about it but wouldn't it be roleplay and roleplaying??




What? Wrong kind of technical? :confused:

Ayrleig
01-08-2010, 08:37 PM
Not to be too technical about it but wouldn't it be roleplay and roleplaying??


It's rollplaying if you use Tumble.

Zippo
01-08-2010, 08:39 PM
It's not? Not for you it would seem. Are you trying to tell me what it should be for me? That's certainly what it sounds like.

see you missed where he offered to pay your sub for you.. oh wait that's embarrassing on my part I guess.... Ahh well

Maybe he will?

bobbryan2
01-08-2010, 08:40 PM
I didn't quite get what he meant by that either. Is he saying it's like mario bros where you have a set char to chose from and that's it? Meh, whatever. Just to **** him off, I say, yes. Let's all build identical characters and name them all some variation of "Mario".

People overplay the 'cookie-cutter' or 'min/maxing' in this game. The truth of the matter is that the character creator in this game is exceedingly complex... and there are a multitude of ways of making very cool, very powerful characters.

But a 'lot' of ways to make awesome characters isn't the same thing as saying any character you make can be awesome. For as many good builds out there, there are 15 ways to totally screw them up.

So while I could name some concept, and ask several good builders to come up with something, I'd probably get as many different builds as there were builders. For instance... I say WF FvS, and you'd get some FvS builds that melee, some that only melee, some that only cast, some that do both, some that take adamantine armor, some that don't take toughness, and so on.

People that pull out the cookie-cutter arguments are the same people that are trying to justify their own stupid build. Like somehow THEY'RE unique build is somehow superior because it performs inferior to other unique builds.

Ayrleig
01-08-2010, 08:42 PM
I'll put it in one sentence:

Focusing strictly upon maximizing one's character's video-game-style, crash, slash, smash and dash throw-weight is Marioizing the concept of D&D.

Now, I understand that people are just having fun and playing the game that's presented to them. The Marioizing of the game is just a direction I'd like to see those who would uphold the name "Dungeons & Dragons" make some workarounds for, somehow. It's unfortunate when that dominates the multiplayer environment.

Ayrleig
01-08-2010, 08:47 PM
I have these moments as well, and for those moments I log in with my permadeath toons.
Brings a new dimension to the game.
Maybe this is something that you'd enjoy....
Check it out.

Thanks, I hope to. I also wonder how LotR Online might pan out and anticipate taking the 30-day trial. I participated in MMORP (get that right?) in Middlearth, for a while, but there wasn't enough action! Also, participating as a normal human character in Middlearth is wierd. It feels like I'm kind of put down racially, in some ways. I'd probably be a hunter in/from the Dale. Not into authoritarianism, including monarchy. ;->

Ghoste
01-08-2010, 08:50 PM
Now, I understand that people are just having fun and playing the game that's presented to them. The Marioizing of the game is just a direction I'd like to see those who would uphold the name "Dungeons & Dragons" make some workarounds for, somehow. It's unfortunate when that dominates the multiplayer environment.So you are telling me how I should be playing not just DDO, but D&D as well. Does that make you feel better now?

bobbryan2
01-08-2010, 08:55 PM
I'll put it in one sentence:

Focusing strictly upon maximizing one's character's video-game-style, crash, slash, smash and dash throw-weight is Marioizing the concept of D&D.

Now, I understand that people are just having fun and playing the game that's presented to them. The Marioizing of the game is just a direction I'd like to see those who would uphold the name "Dungeons & Dragons" make some workarounds for, somehow. It's unfortunate when that dominates the multiplayer environment.

Can I please have the eytomology of the term Marioizing. Because once again, I don't think it means what you think it means. It tends to refer to turning a game into a lot of running and jumping with some difficult jumps, i.e. more like the game Super Mario Brothers.

You can't just cross video game terms and expect it to make sense. Then all of a sudden, zerging is going to mean making boss fights more pixelated...

Freeman
01-08-2010, 08:56 PM
I'll put it in one sentence:

Focusing strictly upon maximizing one's character's video-game-style, crash, slash, smash and dash throw-weight is Marioizing the concept of D&D.

Now, I understand that people are just having fun and playing the game that's presented to them. The Marioizing of the game is just a direction I'd like to see those who would uphold the name "Dungeons & Dragons" make some workarounds for, somehow. It's unfortunate when that dominates the multiplayer environment.

You are under the mistaken assumption that anything with the Dungeons and Dragons name on it must be about roleplaying. That has never been the case, considering all of the movies, TV shows, video games, and other assorted items that have been available over the years. Only Neverwinter Nights has ever really offered any type of ability to actually roleplay in a video game environment, and even in that, many choose to simply play the game instead of roleplaying the character in the game. Here, Turbine is the DM. Do you know what that means, according to the official DM's Guide? That means the DM defines the game. If you don't like the definition, don't play with that DM.

Solostoran
01-08-2010, 09:03 PM
Hail goode Ayrleig! Myne gentil sirrah, know thee that the fouleste beastes of faire Eberron, such as the dread greye chikken y-clept Suulomades, are immune to the sylvere tongue of the rogue, the pietie of the righteouseste paladynne, the charmes of the most beauteouse drow (or the stumpieste dwarf, if that be hys thynge). The onlye langage these daemonnes understande is a khopeshe up the asse. Damage per seconde, it is as the Kinge in this lande.

Prithee, good sirrah, savest thou thy role-playinge for Thelanis Thurdayes, and addest thou more bylde poyntes into Stryngth.

+1 to you good sir

Gremmlynn
01-08-2010, 09:19 PM
You can't just cross video game terms and expect it to make sense. Then all of a sudden, zerging is going to mean making boss fights more pixelated...Bad example. Zerging is often used to describe the strategy of bringing more players to a fight than your opponent in PvP games (generally by the out numbered party).

hydra_ex
01-08-2010, 09:22 PM
Bad example. Zerging is often used to describe the strategy of bringing more players to a fight than your opponent in PvP games (generally by the out numbered party).

And originally it meant swarming your enemies with masses of weak units before they're ready. I still think its kind of a longshot to "run the quest as fast as possible."

Xenus_Paradox
01-08-2010, 09:28 PM
I'd just say it's unfortunate for the video game mentality to dominate so many multiplayer scenarios and that for multiplayer interaction, finding such a single-minded focus on maximizing throw-weight is more for World of Warcraft than a tradition aptly named "Dungeons and Dragons."

D&D players have had a video game mentality since before video games existed.

Gygax and Arneson: The original powergamers.

bobbryan2
01-08-2010, 09:30 PM
And originally it meant swarming your enemies with masses of weak units before they're ready. I still think its kind of a longshot to "run the quest as fast as possible."

Well, at least it fits in as much as you had to rush them with the weak units as fast as possible.

At least you can stretch it.

BLAKROC
01-08-2010, 09:47 PM
There are no innocents. Kill em all and let god sort em out.

after all that killin I need some dinner, pass the bacon wrapped tasty ham please,:D

Lleren
01-08-2010, 09:48 PM
Can I please have the eytomology of the term Marioizing. Because once again, I don't think it means what you think it means. It tends to refer to turning a game into a lot of running and jumping with some difficult jumps, i.e. more like the game Super Mario Brothers.

You can't just cross video game terms and expect it to make sense. Then all of a sudden, zerging is going to mean making boss fights more pixelated...

Bob can't make those odd jumps. Bob is mario-impaired.

Robin is great at avoiding traps by jumping past them. Robin is mario skilled.
-----------

Seems to me that Mariozation of a game would be to tune the game so that more of what Robin is good at and Bob is poor at is present.

Mario skills in general have almost nothing to do with base character abilities, or min-maxing. I do not see how the originator of the thread is connecting the two. We jump the same with a skill of 10 and buffs, we fall the same with feather fall, and I have yet to see a min/maxed "uber build" with an innately ( no buffs ) high jump or tumble score.

Nearly all mmo's involve a lot of running around. It is called a timesink, and in most mmo's they get mounts or runspeed to get past part of that tedium. Time spent between fights is time wasted in my experiences from otehr games, not just this one.

Sebiale
01-08-2010, 11:20 PM
This is an MMO. Also, while it may have D&D in the title, it's specificially about Eberron.
Digital D&D is something else entirely. I remember seeing an interview with the developers of that a few months back....wonder how that's coming along.

TreknaQudane
01-08-2010, 11:23 PM
No. This is not PnP, this is an MMO based on the D&D ruleset. Roleplaying is entirely optional.


I disagree.


Roleplaying is entirely optional in PnP as well.

DnD is just a game system to build from. The amount of story involved in it will be determined by the DM and players, not the base rules.

Atenhotep
01-08-2010, 11:30 PM
No, it isn't. There are a small number of players who rollplay, but they could do that without the video game. This is a video game and RP in it makes as little sense as rollplaying that you are Mario.

I am MARIO!!!!!

Xenus_Paradox
01-08-2010, 11:35 PM
I am MARIO!!!!!

Good effort, but your Mario needs some work before you can call yourself a real roleplayer.

Repeat after me... "EEt's-a MEE, MAR-io!"

eonfreon
01-08-2010, 11:38 PM
Why are so many of the discussion on this forum about planning for maxing out one's character in one ability set or another (and avoiding the dreaded "gimping out") instead of considering our characters to have a natural progression for their fantasy lives?

This is not about technical competition (though I know you can do that in a saloon). It's about fantasy roleplaying...

...isn't it?

Mainly because most people come to the forums for technical advice, llike which Feats to choose, which spells, which skills, which class make-ups, etc.

What would we have to discuss on the forums roleplaying-wise?
Are you thinking the forums need a section for us to put our character bio's in?

My characters have their own "history". Some are more fleshed out then others and even follow certain themes.

So what? I truly doubt many people want to know how my Paladin strayed from his path and followed the ways of war until a group of Monks soothed his soul and brought him back to the light (my roleplaying justification for my Paladin's Fighter and Monk levels).

I can go into even more minutia of biographical detail if you like. But not on the forums. I'll even roll eyes at myself if I write the whole thing.

KKDragonLord
01-08-2010, 11:43 PM
I appreciate and tend to agree with your answer, thanks. And even very roleepoley players (and the characters themselves, if they had a choice) would like to just test their mettle with some big though fakey brawling.

I'd just say it's unfortunate for the video game mentality to dominate so many multiplayer scenarios and that for multiplayer interaction, finding such a single-minded focus on maximizing throw-weight is more for World of Warcraft than a tradition aptly named "Dungeons and Dragons."

I enjoy DDO and I look forward to testing out the d20 online conferencing game that's become widely used, too.

And even better -- I suspect that somewhere, some people are working on taking high fantasy role playing to the next level, in sensory oriented play. This is an excellent step, consistent with D&D rules and factors. It would be nice if those people in their arcane development efforts were D&D people servicing that large market.

Ayrleig, you are either being dense or naive.

Computer RPGs are Video Games, there is no other mentality for them and there cannot be, roleplaying with your friends work because of the social contract involved inherently in it. Roleplaying with strangers require the same contract to be made, i.e. joining a guild or a group of roleplayers. Everyone else cannot be expected to act according to your expectations.

Obviously, the more people there are in a game, the more unlikely it is to establish a social contract that determines a roleplaying pattern of behavior. And games are made to be sold to, and played by, as much people as possible. Therefore, you will not see any game that requires people to act "in character" ever being made for a big audience.

But, there are certainly people who think like you do, and there always were, since the age of MUDs, chat rooms, now MMOs, and virtual reality graphical layers sometime in the future perhaps. All you need to do is to find them.

I suggest you seek out this project http://www.alandfaraway.org/. They have been trying to accomplish precisely what you want for a long time. Roleplaying is required and DMs go around creating campaings for unwitting adventurers, very few people manage to fit in there, but the experiences are quite positive with the ones that do.

But if you insist that Dungeons and Dragons is the place where Video Gamization shouldnt ever happen, i advise you to take a look at 4 edition D&D, its even more "Video Gamized" than DDO in a lot of things.

FunkyGoose
01-09-2010, 04:24 AM
there is a difference when we had no knowledge of the raids and were exploring to improve our tactics and gear. atm, they know what is required

This is the reason i prefer grouping with noobs/newbs/greenies, whatever you want to call them (and i admit, i group myself in with them). these people have no idea of a quest outside of what a quest giver tells them, whereas vets assume that all players know the same things as they do, and shun new players for not having 'UBER AWESOME BUILDS!!!!11!!!!1!!ONE!!!, or epic greensteel weapons, or spouting stuff like (true quote) "Casters, all you should do is haste me". The best group i have ever played in was a pug of VON 3 with 5 guys who had never been in the quest before, sure we took loger than a group of "UBER" vets who had memorized the quest and finish in 5 minites, sure, only one of us got out of the place becase we didnt know the door shut, so the rest of us got blown up (he was lauhing as we died by the way :D )... but that, (for me), is part of the fun, all we knew about the quest was that there were some constructs, so the rog prepped wrack and the wizzie dropped charm, we (amazingly enough!) actually figured out the puzzles, rather than looking on google for the answer. I enjoy playing this game by figuring out what to do AS A TEAM, rather than just following the 'uber vet' around.
Thank You
[/rant]

...So sayeth the Funk...

Kiralyn2000
01-09-2010, 07:23 AM
("If you're going to do X at high level, you need Skill/Feat/whatever Y completely maxed out. Otherwise, you'll fail." etc, etc, etc.)

Hmm, I see where this can be read multiple ways. I'd meant more along the lines of "If you want to Disarm / UMD / actually use AC at high levels, you need that skill completely maxed out, otherwise it doesn't make the DCs and is utterly useless" rather than "If you want to run Shroud/elite Whatever at high levels, you need to be min/maxed."

:)


Can I please have the eytomology of the term Marioizing. Because once again, I don't think it means what you think it means. It tends to refer to turning a game into a lot of running and jumping with some difficult jumps, i.e. more like the game Super Mario Brothers.

And here I read "Marioizing" as kiddy-fying the game - i.e, making it like an easy Nintendo game. Simplifying, dumbing down. Pretty much the opposite of min/max. Interesting how language works. :D



People overplay the 'cookie-cutter' or 'min/maxing' in this game. The truth of the matter is that the character creator in this game is exceedingly complex... and there are a multitude of ways of making very cool, very powerful characters.

But a 'lot' of ways to make awesome characters isn't the same thing as saying any character you make can be awesome. For as many good builds out there, there are 15 ways to totally screw them up.

Which may be another reason for the technical focus of the forum discussions. DDO seems rather unique among MMOs, in that the character creation system will actually *allow* you to choose things that will utterly destroy your character. Make it 110% useless at high level. And without (until the recent addition of the various reincarnate options) a respec system. Whereas in most MMOs, the only stat choice after picking your class is making sure the gear you pick up has the stats you need. And the only choice in skills is whether or not you went to the skill trainer to learn your new ones.

(Example. Take a char with 10 Str, 10 Cha, 10 Dex. Multiclass it Ftr/Rogue/Sorc. Wear Heavy Armor. Put stat gains in Wisdom. Take inapplicable Feats. Congrats, it's a nigh-useless character! Another example is how common it is to hear the question "Why does it keep saying I can't cast spells?" "What's your <casting stat>?" "10." Show me another MMO where you can create a spell-caster who can't actually cast his spells.)

Ayrleig
01-15-2010, 07:50 PM
Ayrleig, you are either being dense or naive.

/ snip /

But if you insist that Dungeons and Dragons is the place where Video Gamization shouldnt ever happen, i advise you to take a look at 4 edition D&D, its even more "Video Gamized" than DDO in a lot of things.

Some good information there, KKDL -- especially the part that I snipped, I mean. As for this though, I guess ad hominem goes with overcharacterizing someone's comments.

Sure, DDO is at its essence, a video game. But it tries, with some success, to be more than a video game -- and treating the *bulk* of multi-player parties like Mario-blasting games is clearly unfortunate for a game with the title of Dungeons and Dragons. So is a great focus simply on one's own character "builds," as opposed to cooperative, tactical, and even strategic play.

BTW, for the other poster, I was not aware of any etymology of "Marioizing." The idea to use that iconic reference just came to mind.

Cedwin
01-15-2010, 07:59 PM
DDO really isn't setup for role-playing. There isn't enough "fluff", it's not an open world like other MMOs, and it's really easy to mess up a build if you don't roll it right; which can hamper your game-play.

If they included more things like housing, live events, outfit customization, more emotes, etc., then I could see it being more RP friendly.

Turbines other MMO, LOTRO, makes for a much more suitable RP environment.