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Angelus_dead
01-06-2010, 04:28 AM
Tower of Despair is getting to be an old raid, so the time to expect the loot to be fixed has pretty much passed. But there's the chance that the addition of new specialty enhancements in the next update will create an opportunity to improve them, so I'll repeat some of the suggestions that have been observed. The main problem is that too few of the sets are attractive, leading to most characters being in contention for just a few rings, or just not trying to get a set bonus at all. (It is monk and barb rings that are heavily desired not only by those classes, but also most other melee combatants)

It can be assumed that new abilities will be added whenever a new specialty enhancement becomes available (like Pale Master in the next patch), but more changes would be helpful.

1. Reduce the requirement to activate expanded set bonuses from tier 3 of a specialty enhancement to tier 1. The large majority of characters will take tier 3 of their specialty regardless, and there is no reason to punish nonstandard builds by denying them item effects. The current version seems to be saying: "Screw you, anyone who multiclassed more than 2 levels!"

2. No eating charges. Item effects which give you an increase to the daily uses of some ability (like boosts, dodges, or turns) should not use up charges if you switch the item in and out. Fixing this is not difficult programming: it just requires a tiny bit of cleverness, which is actually mandated by the D&D rulebooks.

3. Stacking Sneak Attack. The Assassin and Ninja sets provide a bonus to Sneak Attack damage, but it doesn't stack with Sneak Attack from other items. They could either be changed to stack with other items, or increased to not be less than the Tharne's Goggles bonus. Alternatively it could provide two bonuses to Sneak Attack, one stacking and one not.

4. Stacking spellcrit. The Sorcerer and Archmage set bonuses provide improvements to spell critical hit chances, but they don't stack with the better items you can already have. They could be fixed either to stack, or at least not be less than other items, or to partially stack. Or some of the items could become a different kind of bonus, such as -X% spellpoint costs on matching spells.

5. Hunter of the Dead. Wearing the set could provide a damage bonus against undead, which increases with the matching specialty. (The current bonus of damaging undead who hit you is weak even when you are fighting undead, and useless otherwise). This would make the items situationally attractive for a wide range of characters, which is good because basically nobody trains HOTD.

6. Mechanic. Wearing the set could provide a damage bonus against constructs, which increases with the matching specialty. This would make the items situationally attractive for a wide range of characters, which is good because basically nobody trains Mechanic.

7. Acrobat. That "Unbalancing" debuff could also provide the kind of "Unbalancing" as the monk6 ability, which is much preferable for Rogues. (Maybe it could have both debuffs at separate proc rates)

8. Tempest vs DR. The damage from on the Tempest set is slashing, but it doesn't inherit the properties of your weapon, meaning it beats almost no DR (except zombies). The damage should either use the type of your weapon (like Sneak Attack does), or be like Blade Barrier and ignore all DR.

9. Scaled SR. Some sets give SR 22, which is pathetically less than the SR 32 a Cleric can toss from a mass spell. Sure, it shouldn't be as good as the dispellable buff, but -10 below it is worthless. It might be interesting if the provided SR was +8 above your level (meaning it floats to -4 below whatever a same-level Cleric could cast)

10. Double boost to main stat? Wizards get int-int, but Fighters, Clerics/FVS, and Sorcerer can't get str-str, wis-wis, or cha-cha. That's a bit unfortunate.

11. Improve the numbers for Sorcerer set bonuses. The Sorcerer sets provide the same spell crit bonuses as does the Archmage wizard set, but they are restricted to only one energy type, making them much worse in use. (And that's on top of giving fewer spellpoints)

12. Real bonuses on Cleric sets. I won't be really specific, except to say that turning undead is not a priority ability, and not all Clerics have other uses for Turns. Since FVS do not have their own rings, these bonuses should probably be useful to them as well.

13. Bonuses for the Favored Soul specialties could be added to existing items. For example, the Warpriest set could provide one bonus if you have Warpriest, and another if you have Divine Avenger. This would add support for FVS characters, without diluting the loot table. Some of the Cleric and Paladin sets could get this addition, depending on which specialties seem most similar to each other.

14. Add Improved or Regular False Life. Some of the belts have Greater False Life and some have other effects, and those with GFL are often much preferred. Adding a lesser amount of False Life to some others could help balance them. (Mechanic and HOTD are two belts that could use an improvement like that)

15. Make attack bonus more meaningful in the game. Many of the TOD sets provide attack bonuses (or AC debuffs), which are often unattractive because the characters rarely have trouble hitting. Some alterations to the general game rules could change this, and also be helpful in general:
a. Allow Power Attack to be used at the same time as either Combat Expertise or Defensive Fighting. (Not both)
b. Nerf (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2369767&postcount=11) Fortification (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1906521&postcount=4), so that more attack bonus is needed to oppose the confirmation penalty.




In addition, here are three mistakes about TOD sets that it is far too late to change now:

1. Making them based on specialty enhancements. This led to the designers trying to make 30 different good bonuses, which is too many. If they had tried to make 10-15 sets then the effort wouldn't have been as diluted. The items could then have varied on other axes, such as having non-caster items that aren't con6.

2. Making the set bonuses for a class either all-belt or all-necklace. If a cleric or ranger wants to keep his old necklace, then no class bonus for him!

3. Spellpoints on belts. Most of the belts have constitution 6, while others have spellpoints. But while constitution is something you want to keep on continuously, the spellpoint bonuses stop being meaningful after you've cast your first bunch of spells (often just buffing after a rest). So they're not really attractive to come with elements of a set bonus. Making it worse is that a few of the belts give more sp than the others, meaning that for better results you'll use one while resting, then swap after buffs. That's not a fun way to differentiate the items.

Aranticus
01-06-2010, 04:38 AM
i would like to see expanded bonuses depending on what is your prestige level, ie +1 damage for tier I, +2 for tier II, +4 for tier III

Angelus_dead
01-06-2010, 04:56 AM
I didn't mention them above, so here are a few words about Bard sets:
The Warchanter set is moderately popular, but it's no more attractive to Bards than other kinds of casters. In fact, a Warchanter Bard is rather likely to not have Maximize, because of the heavy cost in melee feats to enter his specialty. It is Spellsinger Bards who can actually use the Maximize feat as part of qualifying, but their set bonus doesn't benefit any metamagic.

Mudcnd
01-06-2010, 10:53 AM
OMG you used the bad word in your post !







"NERF"

AestorTheKnight
01-06-2010, 06:13 PM
I completely agree with every single point Angelus_Dead made. I dont see why the turbine devs were so unimagintive and lacking in common sense to make the items the way they are at the moment. But certainly all of the proposed changes by the OP are good, and DDO Devs should listen to his suggestions and apply them, in my oppimon. Thanks for posting Angelus_Dead, kudos to you for saying what we have all been thinking. :)

Strakeln
01-06-2010, 09:54 PM
Good points.

TechNoFear
01-06-2010, 10:25 PM
1. Reduce the requirement to activate expanded set bonuses from tier 3 of a specialty enhancement to tier 1. The large majority of characters will take tier 3 of their specialty regardless, and there is no reason to punish nonstandard builds by denying them item effects. The current version seems to be saying: "Screw you, anyone who multiclassed more than 2 levels!"


This would give a huge advantage to multi-class builds with 2 PrEs, who can then wear two sets getting full bonuses for both, while most classes can only get bonuses from one set.

IMO tier 2 would be a much better idea.

assamite
01-06-2010, 10:31 PM
1. Reduce the requirement to activate expanded set bonuses from tier 3 of a specialty enhancement to tier 1. The large majority of characters will take tier 3 of their specialty regardless, and there is no reason to punish nonstandard builds by denying them item effects. The current version seems to be saying: "Screw you, anyone who multiclassed more than 2 levels!".

Only thing i gotta dissagree on :/. I think they should even add an exclusive capstone bonus to the item sets that says "Screw you, anyone who multiclassed more than 0 lvl's :D. Just gotta weigh the pros and cons

Borror0
01-06-2010, 11:20 PM
1. Reduce the requirement to activate expanded set bonuses from tier 3 of a specialty enhancement to tier 1. The large majority of characters will take tier 3 of their specialty regardless, and there is no reason to punish nonstandard builds by denying them item effects. The current version seems to be saying: "Screw you, anyone who multiclassed more than 2 levels!"
Another way to solve this issue would be to scale the bonus depending on how far in the PrE the character has gotten. For example, the Tempest set could give a +1 bonus for each tier instead of a +3 bonus for reaching the third tier.

arminius
01-06-2010, 11:25 PM
People still run TOD? You could have fooled me.

_

Aesop
01-06-2010, 11:32 PM
Another way to solve this issue would be to scale the bonus depending on how far in the PrE the character has gotten. For example, the Tempest set could give a +1 bonus for each tier instead of a +3 bonus for reaching the third tier.

Yeah I'd like a tiered effect too.

A_D

good ideas all around.

Aesop

Auran82
01-07-2010, 12:04 AM
I would have personally like to have seen:
6 x Named +6 Stat rings as raid loot
6 x +1 Exceptional stat shards to add +1 exceptional stat to ring (maybe need 3 shards of a type? Combine on altar)
Either have shards drop which you combine with the ring to add a 'set' to it, or you put the ring into the altar with the set belt to give it the set.
Imbued Greater shards + trophys as now for the final tier.

Might have been a bit too customisable though, not sure.

Would have been good to also see both belt and necklace versions of the other stat items, but that would mean you would have to make sure you couldn't just wear a belt and necklace of a set to get the bonus, same could happen I guess with 2 rings, but that might also be something you could use.

Cyr
01-07-2010, 09:48 AM
Only thing i gotta dissagree on :/. I think they should even add an exclusive capstone bonus to the item sets that says "Screw you, anyone who multiclassed more than 0 lvl's :D. Just gotta weigh the pros and cons

That's already in the game in the form of capstones. Adding character build requirements to items only makes more less desired items. I think we have enough of those already.

Aranticus
01-07-2010, 10:04 AM
Another way to solve this issue would be to scale the bonus depending on how far in the PrE the character has gotten. For example, the Tempest set could give a +1 bonus for each tier instead of a +3 bonus for reaching the third tier.

meh! idea stealer! go get the wiki up already.....




















i missed it ;)

Baahb3
01-07-2010, 10:12 AM
Another way to solve this issue would be to scale the bonus depending on how far in the PrE the character has gotten. For example, the Tempest set could give a +1 bonus for each tier instead of a +3 bonus for reaching the third tier.

I like the idea of having to have the 3rd tier of a PrE to fully unlock an item set but if they do change it it should be either 2nd tier or a scaled one like Borror0 mentions here.

Riggs
03-02-2010, 09:55 PM
Yes

Delacroix21
03-03-2010, 02:09 AM
I like everything you listed, and especially what Borrow listed about scaling set bonuses for lower tiers of the PrE. The most unique feature of DDO is custom character creation, and if you buff up pure classes to much this will be less and less enticing.


I disagree about attack bonuses not being usefull in DDO though, as they are darn useful to monks who are severly multi stat dependant, usally use +1 not +5 handwraps, and run with PA or CE on 100%. In epic content this becomes a big issue, while most other meele have much higher to-hits.


Like the idea of the fortification nerf, yet hope much "ac bonus" at levels 5,10,15,and 20 adds some %fortification since they cant use shields.

noinfo
03-03-2010, 03:02 AM
Another way to solve this issue would be to scale the bonus depending on how far in the PrE the character has gotten. For example, the Tempest set could give a +1 bonus for each tier instead of a +3 bonus for reaching the third tier.

The scaling is a nice logical progression, however they already have the pre bonus for each teir and probably the capstone so now they get the highest bonus from current end game raid as well? That is about as equitable/ballanced as those items giving up to tier 3 pre effects but only on those who do not have the pre, better than what we have now but not what I would like to see.

Aspenor
03-03-2010, 08:24 AM
I would like to see many of these changes, too. FWIW, I wear the Archmage set on my sorcerer, because in combination with a Greater Arcane Lore item it gives Major Arcane Lore. However, wearing two items for +.25 to spell crit damage is a bit much. I do it only because of owning a good dragontouched robe.

Make them stack, please.

Angelus_dead
03-03-2010, 11:09 AM
I disagree about attack bonuses not being usefull in DDO though, as they are darn useful to monks who are severly multi stat dependant, usally use +1 not +5 handwraps, and run with PA or CE on 100%. In epic content this becomes a big issue
I didn't say they're not useful; just that they're not useful enough of the time. A close look at what I wrote will reveal phrases like "more meaningful", "often unattractive", and "rarely have trouble hitting". Naturally, I wrote it that way to account for the fact that there do exist epic dungeons where attack bonus is important, but that they are just a minority of the game, and a section some players don't use (due to the huge gap between epic and nonepic dungeon modes).

Nyvn
03-03-2010, 11:20 AM
All great ideas, but after seeing Reaver's Refuge get ignored other than to fix an exploit I seriously doubt any of these changes will make it in game.

Ulf
03-03-2010, 11:36 AM
1. Making them based on specialty enhancements. This led to the designers trying to make 30 different good bonuses, which is too many. If they had tried to make 10-15 sets then the effort wouldn't have been as diluted. The items could then have varied on other axes, such as having non-caster items that aren't con6.
Agree, that trying to make speciality enhancements for so many combos was a mistake. However, just making the sets more powerful is not the way to fix it. I would much rather see the set bonuses removed entirely. I mean the rings would still be semi-customizable +9 stat items and belts/necklaces would still be better than most non-raid named items.

Pyromaniac
03-04-2010, 05:17 AM
I'd like them to make the loot sets more viable for casters. Change the arcane sets to be stacking. Melee have decent options in there.

Its not an old raid, its the most recent raid Turbine introduced (I don't count epic rehashes to be new raids). Wait a sec, yep its an old raid...we haven't seen a new one in a long time.

Nyvn
03-05-2010, 12:29 PM
Hmm stacking damage like the melee sets can provide? Mmmm that sounds good.

sephiroth1084
06-10-2010, 04:00 AM
Yet another set of excellent ideas from A_D.

Aranticus's idea was also pretty solid--that of replacing tier III bonus effects with scaled bonuses based on how many tiers of a PrE you have.

The SR on the items should at least be equal to the SR you'd gain from casting Spell Resistance or Mass Spell Resistance off of a scroll.

Maybe add +6 Con to the caster sets, since they need Con too, and it would make the entire bundle more worth wearing.

Valindria
11-23-2010, 09:56 AM
Necro:

Spell Singer (Brd)
◦Shiona's Pendant - Necklace: Superior Potency VI, Wizardry VI [A New Invasion]
◦Shiona's Seal - Ring: Charisma +6, Exceptional Dexterity +1, Incredible Potential
◦Set Bonus: 2 additional Bard songs per rest

I see lots of issues with the bard ToD sets, but really if you look at this set bonus: 2 more songs for the two items compared to +1 song regen every 5 minute it's an easy choice (Anthem Eylds Edge). The ring should be +6 Charisma +1 Exceptional Charisma. The set bonus should be something helpful to a SS.


The whole sets should be looked at. All of the bard necklaces are identical. The set bonuses are a little lackluster but SS is especially bad.


Virtuoso (Brd)
◦Smedgar's Necklace - Necklace: Superior Potency VI, Wizardry VI [Bastion of Power]
◦Smedgar's Ring - Ring: Charisma +6, Exceptional Dexterity +1, Incredible Potential
◦Set Bonus: Additional Bard Song per rest, Extend Spell 2 Spell Points less

Additonal songs to a Virtuoso is wasted, My level 20 Virt II has 31 songs and they regen. Extend costing 2 less points is nice but not enough overall. One could argue for Exceptional Dexterity on a Virtuoso however I think Con, Str, or Cha would also make more sense. I would say WC= STR, SS= CHA, Virt = CON would keep the sets slightly different and be helpful.


Warchanter (Brd)
◦Torin's Choker - Necklace: Superior Potency VI, Wizardry VI [Sins of Attrition]
◦Warchanter's Band - Ring: Charisma +6, Exceptional Strength +1, Incredible Potential
◦Set Bonus: Additional Bard Songs after resting, Maximize Spell costs 4 Spell Points less, Extend Spell costs 1 Spell Point less

The warchanter set bonus should give either a damage or health boost. 10 extra hit points, or damage like some of the other sets.


Overall ideas:
- Add Anthem as a set bonus or to necklace
- Add +15 perform to necklaces
- Add Sonic Damage on hit (set bonus)
- Greater Enchant Focus (SS)
- Hit points
- UMD or Command

DethTrip
12-02-2010, 01:13 PM
How bout +6 cha and +1 exc str or con on the warchanter's band and set bonus gives an additional +1 to attack and +2 to damage of your inspire courage songs? That seems a lot more in line with warchanter if you ask me. And only a bard would benefit from it. What is a warchanter going to use maximize spell for anyway? Healing potency? How many warchanters have that many spellpoints?

Also would like to see something worth while for the ninja spy PRE. Invisibility? Shadow fade covers that. How bout something like an additional 1d6 sneak attack damage? That's not too overpowering. Bonus to hit and sneak attack is ok I suppose. What is the bonus tho?

I could go on and on as many of us could come up with some much better versions of what's available now.

TOD isn't a tremendously hard quest but it's still quite a grind to get the rings you want and the reward isn't as good as it should be. Hell, just getting a full party can take an hour. The grind of making your boots is quite a price to pay too. MAKE THE SETS BETTER!

/signed

Alavatar
12-02-2010, 02:07 PM
Can we get the old Pale Master set bonus back, please? :) :) :)

Jaid314
12-02-2010, 10:19 PM
How bout +6 cha and +1 exc str or con on the warchanter's band and set bonus gives an additional +1 to attack and +2 to damage of your inspire courage songs? That seems a lot more in line with warchanter if you ask me. And only a bard would benefit from it. What is a warchanter going to use maximize spell for anyway? Healing potency? How many warchanters have that many spellpoints?

Also would like to see something worth while for the ninja spy PRE. Invisibility? Shadow fade covers that. How bout something like an additional 1d6 sneak attack damage? That's not too overpowering. Bonus to hit and sneak attack is ok I suppose. What is the bonus tho?

I could go on and on as many of us could come up with some much better versions of what's available now.

TOD isn't a tremendously hard quest but it's still quite a grind to get the rings you want and the reward isn't as good as it should be. Hell, just getting a full party can take an hour. The grind of making your boots is quite a price to pay too. MAKE THE SETS BETTER!

/signed

ninja spy invisibility is for your half-elven companions. if they're invisible, you can't see their faces, plus they're less likely to give away your position by their incompetence at sneaking. it's a win/win situation! (note: may also be useful for the latter use for other races)

Rhowyn
04-15-2011, 01:25 PM
Wiping a tear from my eye...OP had some fantastic ideas. Pity that it's over a year later and those rings remain horribly horribly worthless. We're on the eve of the introduction of the first sorcerer prestige classes, and they're going to alter the rings to enter the new tier 3(still tier 3) bonus. What do you think the programmer thinks as s/he enters the "+2 max spell level" entry next to the non-stacking +5%/+0.5 critical spell set bonus? Does s/he laugh at the poor sorcerers and mages? Does s/he feel sad about it, lacking the authority to fix it? I wonder who has the authority to declare that these rings should stack...

Valindria
04-15-2011, 03:23 PM
Nice bump. I wish the bard items would be changed up as well.

Adding to my list for bards Overall ideas:
- Add Anthem as a set bonus or to necklace
- Add +15 perform to necklaces. Really all of them could get it but I guess Virt or SS make the most sense
- Add Sonic Damage on hit thundering on crit (set bonus for WC or Virt)
- Greater Enchant Focus (SS)
- Hit points - Helpful for all bards but more for the melee d6 bards
- UMD or Command - Could make it pretty popular for some non bards
- Exceptional perform or Song blade
- Chance to dance on hit or crit or vorp roll (like VON 1) - Set bonus for Virt?
- Level drain like assassin set. Seems like it could be fitting in a bard world.
- General exceptional +hit/damage
- Daze, Stun, Hypno on hit or taking damage