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Corebreach
01-01-2010, 06:09 PM
These things are currently wiping the floor with my level 7 Fighter. They take me down in two hits, sometimes three if I'm lucky. Other than getting more anti-bludgeoning DR, which I don't know a good way to do yet with this class, I'm not sure how to stand up longer against these things and their holds. Any suggestions?

Unbuffed stats:
hp: 172
AC: 24 (DPS) / 37 (tanking)
reflex: +5

Kaervas
01-01-2010, 06:19 PM
Bump your reflex save up more.
At your level you can use the Trapblast Goggles (+4 resistance bonus to Reflex saves, from STK end reward).
If you're very fortunate you can get a +4 Dex race-required item at that level as well (or just chug cat's grace potions when you need the dex).

Once you can reliably make the save vs Earthgrab, you can wait until you save against the effect and then close in for a few seconds of unimpeded swinging, then quickly run off before they stand up again.
Rinse and repeat until dead.
Even if you do get earthgrabbed, the damage from it is nothing compared to their melee strikes - just be ready to run away again, if you're quick enough you will never get struck in melee, and only take earthgrab damage whenever you fail the save.



You can also eat a Freedom of Movement cookie (not the best use of a precious consumable though) or get a 7th level cleric to buff you with it, as they have conveniently just gained access to FOM at that level.



You also have access to Hammerblock items at your level, which is as good as it gets for bludgeoning reduction (5 DR). That isn't very useful compared to outright avoiding all their melee swings though.

Draccus
01-01-2010, 06:21 PM
Use the Enervation cookie (Shavarath) you get from copper coins on them. A few negative levels make them super easy.

toughguyjoe
01-01-2010, 06:30 PM
Use the Enervation cookie (Mabar) you get from copper coins on them. A few negative levels make them super easy.


Corrections in Red

bobbryan2
01-01-2010, 06:39 PM
Fighting earth eles one on one is actually very easy once you get basic strategy down. They do an absolute ton of damage at melee, but have a tendency to go for the earth grab if you're at a certain distance when they decide to attack.

To truly exploit this, stand just outside their attack radius... once they try to earthgrab you, run in, swing 3-5 times, and run back out. If you stay in too long, you'll get a nice fist to the back of the head, but after a little practice, you should be able to destroy them at ease.

They, along with some older enemies like ogres, are specifically design to have weakness easy to exploit once you learn how the enemy moves. They got away from design path once the original team left.

Kaervas
01-01-2010, 06:47 PM
Oh, one other thing I forgot to add earlier:

If the elementals are folded up inert on the ground and they aren't ones triggered by moving over a certain area like the ones before the Halokh piece in 3BC Scoundrel's Run, you can simply sneak past and avoid them entirely. Skills permitting of course, so it may not be viable for you as a fighter, but just throwing the method out there. They don't seem too difficult to sneak past, so it may actually be doable if you have a hide and ms item and remove your armor (though if you fail that leaves you in an undesirable situation!).

Twerpp
01-01-2010, 06:50 PM
Fighting earth eles one on one is actually very easy once you get basic strategy down. They do an absolute ton of damage at melee, but have a tendency to go for the earth grab if you're at a certain distance when they decide to attack.

To truly exploit this, stand just outside their attack radius... once they try to earthgrab you, run in, swing 3-5 times, and run back out. If you stay in too long, you'll get a nice fist to the back of the head, but after a little practice, you should be able to destroy them at ease.

They, along with some older enemies like ogres, are specifically design to have weakness easy to exploit once you learn how the enemy moves. They got away from design path once the original team left.

That right there. Dont just stand and trade blows with them, earth eles are chumps.

rpasell
01-01-2010, 07:10 PM
Pull out a bow or a returner.

captain1z
01-01-2010, 07:22 PM
weakening weapons drop thier str making it near immpossible for them to hit you. It works but takes a while, best to have a caster burn em........ but if you dont u can drop thier str to that of a kittens.

elldur
01-01-2010, 07:31 PM
As far as doing as much damage, when you do close in for the kill, I found that picks work best..makes sense since earth elementals are rocklike. But as stated by others, avoiding is easiest, with a returner that pierces (e.g. dagger), you can sneak up close enough to target and then back off out of sight and start launching your range attack.

bobbryan2
01-01-2010, 07:33 PM
As far as doing as much damage, when you do close in for the kill, I found that picks work best..makes sense since earth elementals are rocklike. But as stated by others, avoiding is easiest, with a returner that pierces (e.g. dagger), you can sneak up close enough to target and then back off out of sight and start launching your range attack.

Picks are actually bad against eles. 1d6 base damage is very low, and crits are irrelevant. Longswords, khopeshes, battleaxes, and a few others are all better, but even better than them, are 2 handed weapons.

taurean430
01-01-2010, 07:48 PM
I'm a new player. But I wanted to throw out there that I have had very good luck fighting them when using a paralyzing weapon. You get more swings at them when they don't save. And anyone near the thing can join in on the dps to take it down.

I've also taken notice since level 3 that earth elementals can be hypnotized. It's a level one spell, so any wizzy should have it. Though I don't know if it's a popular spell choice on the sorcerer side of things.

Corebreach
01-01-2010, 07:49 PM
Bump your reflex save up more.
At your level you can use the Trapblast Goggles (+4 resistance bonus to Reflex saves, from STK end reward).
What else is there? I don't have the TP for that right now. I've got a generic +2 res cloak at the moment, which is the highest I can wear at my level.

I should be able to get a +2 Dex item.


You also have access to Hammerblock items at your level, which is as good as it gets for bludgeoning reduction (5 DR).
What items is this found on? The Compendium doesn't say.

Corebreach
01-01-2010, 07:53 PM
Fighting earth eles one on one is actually very easy once you get basic strategy down. They do an absolute ton of damage at melee, but have a tendency to go for the earth grab if you're at a certain distance when they decide to attack.

To truly exploit this, stand just outside their attack radius... once they try to earthgrab you, run in, swing 3-5 times, and run back out. If you stay in too long, you'll get a nice fist to the back of the head, but after a little practice, you should be able to destroy them at ease.
I'll give it a shot. It sounds like it will work solo, but it was hoping for a solution that wasn't liable to get me kicked from teams.

bobbryan2
01-01-2010, 07:55 PM
I'll give it a shot. It sounds like it will work solo, but it was hoping for a solution that wasn't liable to get me kicked from teams.

If you have a party, clerics should be commanding them, or casters should be nuking them.

Kaervas
01-01-2010, 07:56 PM
What else is there? I don't have the TP for that right now. I've got a generic +2 res cloak at the moment, which is the highest I can wear at my level.

I should be able to get a +2 Dex item.


What items is this found on? The Compendium doesn't say.

Regarding the resistance to saves items I don't think anything else grants that much to a single save at level 7. That item can provide more than normal because it is a) a named item and b) only affects Reflex.
You can consider consumables such as heroism potions to boost saves by +2 morale, haste potions for a +1 dodge bonus to reflex saves (and help with the speed of movement and attacks when dancing in and out of the elemental's range).


As for Hammerblock, it's mostly found on body armor (robes, armor, docents).

jingseng
01-01-2010, 07:58 PM
maybe it's me, but that "dps ac" looks really really low too...

and don't neglect your fortification

Corebreach
01-01-2010, 08:46 PM
maybe it's me, but that "dps ac" looks really really low too...
I'm sure it is. He's untwinked and he's going to stay that way since I don't have a higher-level character on the same server.

10 Base
12 +4 Full plate
1 DEX 12
1 Stalwart Defender I
==
24

AH and brokers are dry on Protection gear. I did just pick up a 3/day Shield clicky, so that's 4 more AC in DPS mode for three total minutes, but I wasn't counting buffs anyway.

Corebreach
01-01-2010, 08:51 PM
If you have a party, clerics should be commanding them, or casters should be nuking them.
I have yet to see a cleric command anything. The casters nuke and then die because "the tank isn't holding aggro".

Regardless, I have no control over my teammates' class selections, build choices, or tactics. I'm focusing on what I can affect.

bobbryan2
01-01-2010, 09:32 PM
I have yet to see a cleric command anything. The casters nuke and then die because "the tank isn't holding aggro".

Regardless, I have no control over my teammates' class selections, build choices, or tactics. I'm focusing on what I can affect.

Well, using the tactics I told you, you can fight eles one at a time with almost no damage taken (only a little on a failed earthgrab save).

BlargneyTheSecond
01-01-2010, 09:41 PM
and don't neglect your fortification
That's exactly what I was going to say. Earth ellies hit like trucks, and it's even worse on crits. Fortification gives you a flat % to turn those crits into normal hits. This is particularly important because every hit on you is an auto-crit when you're earthgrabbed.

At the very least you should have light fortification by level 7. Moderate fortification might be a bit more expensive and harder to find at your level, but it's totally worth the money. If your dps AC is extremely low, then good fortification becomes even more important. Look for it on *any* armor, not just fullplate.
-blarg

Jay203
01-01-2010, 09:45 PM
surviving is simply bait it into earthgrabbing instead of melee
attacking is more along the lines of 2 handed fighting if you're a brute and dual element of pure good weapons if you're twf

sirgog
01-01-2010, 11:22 PM
That's exactly what I was going to say. Earth ellies hit like trucks, and it's even worse on crits. Fortification gives you a flat % to turn those crits into normal hits. This is particularly important because every hit on you is an auto-crit when you're earthgrabbed.

At the very least you should have light fortification by level 7. Moderate fortification might be a bit more expensive and harder to find at your level, but it's totally worth the money. If your dps AC is extremely low, then good fortification becomes even more important. Look for it on *any* armor, not just fullplate.
-blarg

On hitting level 8, you might find you ahve better results against earth elementals if you wear a Robe of Heavy Fortification instead of your full plate. (You can switch into the robe rapidly during combat; getting back into the fullplate takes ~5 sec after the fight).

Earth Eles are killers due to the fact that you get automatically critically hit when Earthgrabbed. The robe will drop that damage a lot. (Feel free to substitute Medium Fortification for Heavy, it's not as good but is still pretty solid).

Corebreach
01-02-2010, 02:29 AM
If your dps AC is extremely low, then good fortification becomes even more important. Look for it on *any* armor, not just fullplate.
I'm working on getting AC to 50. Fort can go on the belt; I'll lose about 12 hp, but I think I still come out ahead.

sirgog
01-02-2010, 04:18 AM
I'm working on getting AC to 50. Fort can go on the belt; I'll lose about 12 hp, but I think I still come out ahead.

You'll find that Fortification belts have higher min levels than on robes, which is why I'd look for a robe. Keep the plate equipped all the time, until you encounter an area with lots of Hold effects (such as Earth Eles), then hotswitch. It'll get you through until you hit level 11 and can equip the Ancient Band (a ring you'll love, get it from the AH), or alternately Minos Legens (which you'll use all the way to 20, but requires the Necro 4 adventure pack)

Corebreach
01-02-2010, 04:35 AM
Keep the plate equipped all the time, until you encounter an area with lots of Hold effects (such as Earth Eles), then hotswitch.
Won't that get me killed anyway? Getting held and taking my armor off both mean everything hits me on any roll but 1.

BlargneyTheSecond
01-02-2010, 07:25 AM
Won't that get me killed anyway? Getting held and taking my armor off both mean everything hits me on any roll but 1.
Assuming either of those scenarios means they hit you on anything but a 1:
- getting held means you take double damage if they roll 2-20
- taking your armor off means you take double damage if they roll a 20

I know which one I prefer.
-blarg

ps - Fortification also negates sneak attack. There are tons of rogues in DDO.

PurdueDave
01-02-2010, 12:31 PM
earth elementals are more tactics than gear

You can practice in forgotten caverns (?) in house K. It's around your level. The one downstairs from the tavern. You can fight them one at a time or two at a time and one of the ellies is of the upgraded variety.

Corebreach
01-02-2010, 01:18 PM
earth elementals are more tactics than gear
That's unfortunate, as it will likely result in me shelving this character. Teammates have expectations on both, are quick to disapprove of anything unusual, and can only see the former clearly.

Corebreach
01-02-2010, 01:26 PM
Assuming either of those scenarios means they hit you on anything but a 1:
- getting held means you take double damage if they roll 2-20
- taking your armor off means you take double damage if they roll a 20

I know which one I prefer.
-blarg

ps - Fortification also negates sneak attack. There are tons of rogues in DDO.
I don't believe I can change equipment after I get earthgrabbed. If I go with the hotswapping approach, I have to switch to robes before the fight starts. Yes, I'll take less damage if I'm grabbed, but I'll take more damage before and after.

But that's kind of moot anyway. The comparison being made is between a +4 fullplate / heavy fort robe hotswap and having +4 fullplate and a medium fort belt at all times.

PurdueDave
01-02-2010, 01:30 PM
That's unfortunate, as it will likely result in me shelving this character. Teammates have expectations on both, are quick to disapprove of anything unusual, and can only see the former clearly.

:confused:

Kaervas
01-02-2010, 01:31 PM
That's unfortunate, as it will likely result in me shelving this character. Teammates have expectations on both, are quick to disapprove of anything unusual, and can only see the former clearly.

Tell them to suck it up or tank the bleedin' thing themselves.

Doing the earthgrab dance in and out killing it slowly means you only take minimal damage if any, that can be patched up with a single spell or wandwhip from the resident healer. Casters can save their SP (or pitch in after you've landed some good hits to quicken the entire process).

Additionally, if the cleric is at your level (7th) and they do not cast Freedom of Movement on you in a situation where you will face earth elementals, that is their fault, not yours.
FvS can get away with not having it for a few levels since they pick it up at 8th earliest (and it may not be their first choice for 4th level as it competes with cure critical, divine power, death ward, recitation, etc).

Anyways once you get a few more levels under your belt, a solid heavy fort item that doesn't compromise your AC, and some more hp, you'll be fine going toe to toe with the elementals. They will still attempt to earthgrab you at point blank range, and the few melee swings they throw between earthgrabs won't matter nearly as much. Since you're most likely immune (FoM becoming a pretty much standard buff in those situations) even multiple earth elementals will pose less of a problem as they will all attempt to earthgrab you since you are never currently in an grab.

Eelpout
01-02-2010, 02:14 PM
I'm a new player. But I wanted to throw out there that I have had very good luck fighting them when using a paralyzing weapon. You get more swings at them when they don't save. And anyone near the thing can join in on the dps to take it down.

I've also taken notice since level 3 that earth elementals can be hypnotized. It's a level one spell, so any wizzy should have it. Though I don't know if it's a popular spell choice on the sorcerer side of things.

You can also Command them for some fun times. Sit Ele, sit. Good Ele.

Kaldahr
01-02-2010, 03:57 PM
Lots of good info in here. Has changed my approach to EE combat. I've not tried more than one at a time, but the "avoid grab, dash in, hit a few times, dash out" works really well.

Ranged is not bad either but is, obviously, much slower vs the large and greater EEs.

I've been avoiding running against Landslide for this reason, but I'll try that out when I'm on next to see how it goes. I've had no problem against any of the other rednames EEs running around in the Depths.

edit: ran against the enitre Depths series multiple times tonight on normal. The tactic described here works perfectly. There also appears to be a range on Landslide that he stops following you and just starts to throw off earthgrabs. Hitting with a bow from that range worked really well. I'll need to try this out on harder difficulties (I'm guessing the reflex save DC goes up) to see. Got to get 'em one at a time though - not sure I can handle more than one... yet.

abull74
01-02-2010, 04:37 PM
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