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Stormanne
01-01-2010, 10:22 AM
Who wants one? A DDO version of the Monster Manual. Would be a good resource for both the new players to familiarize themselves with the monsters, and the number crunchers who want the "perfect" builds.

jomonkey527
01-01-2010, 10:37 AM
/ signed

Schwarzie
01-01-2010, 12:40 PM
/signed

Im wondering how many mobs have thoughness 1000 times as racial feat :D

Shade
01-01-2010, 12:43 PM
A player made version already exists:
DDO Catalog (http://75.67.216.212:800/rageclash/ddocatalog/ddocatalog.php)

You just need to help fill it out =)

Stormanne
01-01-2010, 12:47 PM
Thanks for the Neg Rep. Way to go, do so and not even post who you are and why you disagree.

Shade: While that is a start, would like something a little more official from Turbine if possible. Will add what I can to the catalog there, but when I'm in game, I tend to be in game, not worried about what all is going on with the numbers..

Strakeln
01-01-2010, 12:48 PM
On the overall idea of displaying the gross HP inflation:

I really wish they'd found a better way to handle the relationship between constitution and HP (the w/p nerf). And this is coming from the guy whose hands have never touched a w/p rapier.

It seems to me that there were much better ways to handle that problem than completely borking how constitution damage is supposed to work. The proper fix, in my mind, would have been to tie their con score to their HP and scale down the associated bonuses (such as fort save). The idea being, constrain fixes to rules deviations to the problem causing the "exploit" (term used lightly) in the first place.

So in this case, the problem was that they inflated HP to the point that it was much faster to kill with stat damage. They wanted the giants to be hard to kill, but didn't think things all the way through and left the giants with a big Achilles heel. IMO, the proper way to address this is to fix the Achilles heel, not change something else that is WAI.

Stormanne
01-01-2010, 12:52 PM
On the overall idea of displaying the gross HP inflation:

I really wish they'd found a better way to handle the relationship between constitution and HP (the w/p nerf). And this is coming from the guy whose hands have never touched a w/p rapier.

It seems to me that there were much better ways to handle that problem than completely borking how constitution damage is supposed to work. The proper fix, in my mind, would have been to tie their con score to their HP and scale down the associated bonuses (such as fort save). The idea being, constrain fixes to rules deviations to the problem causing the "exploit" (term used lightly) in the first place.

So in this case, the problem was that they inflated HP to the point that it was much faster to kill with stat damage. They wanted the giants to be hard to kill, but didn't think things all the way through and left the giants with a big Achilles heel. IMO, the proper way to address this is to fix the Achilles heel, not change something else that is WAI.

I don't disagree with you one bit about the problems and need for solutions. Just looking for another resource for the game. Would it be high priority for the devs? Hell no, just something to put the clerical interns on when the quests are being tested...

Thailand_Dan
01-01-2010, 01:02 PM
I think your OP is a bit confrontational, the way it is written, implying that Turbine has done something wrong in adapting monsters to suit an online game. Don't get me wrong, I hate the giants in Reaver's Refuge, but you tend to get more flies with honey. This may explain the negative rep.

I think an official MM would be a great resource, and I'd love to see one, but the way the petition was worded stopped me from signing it.

And just to be clear, it wasn't me who gave you the neg.

Good luck

Stormanne
01-01-2010, 01:05 PM
I think your OP is a bit confrontational, the way it is written, implying that Turbine has done something wrong in adapting monsters to suit an online game. Don't get me wrong, I hate the giants in Reaver's Refuge, but you tend to get more flies with honey. This may explain the negative rep.

I think an official MM would be a great resource, and I'd love to see one, but the way the petition was worded stopped me from signing it.

And just to be clear, it wasn't me who gave you the neg.

Good luck

After reading your post, and rereading the OP, you're right. It was more confrontational than intended. Changed it in hopes of seeming less so.

Thailand_Dan
01-01-2010, 01:10 PM
After reading your post, and rereading the OP, you're right. It was more confrontational than intended. Changed it in hopes of seeming less so.

/signed

Happy to sign it now. :)

BlargneyTheSecond
01-01-2010, 01:22 PM
/signed.

I've been looking all over the place for something that gives an indication of monster attack bonuses, and have yet to find anything. An AC guide would be nice as well.
-blarg

Maldavenous
01-01-2010, 01:39 PM
/signed

Borror0
01-01-2010, 10:10 PM
Players don't get to see monster stats in D&D and I don't see why we'd need to in DDO.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to the idea. It's just that, when the arguments in favor of it are so weak, how do you justify the time expenditure?

Seamonkeysix
01-01-2010, 10:14 PM
Players don't get to see monster stats in D&D and I don't see why we'd need to in DDO.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to the idea. It's just that, when the arguments in favor of it are so weak, how do you justify the time expenditure?

They don't? Isn't that what a Monster Manual is for? :confused: Gives you AC, Hit Dice, Alignment, ect...

huflung
01-01-2010, 10:15 PM
look what i found....

http://ddo.mmodb.com/guides/guide-to-ddo-creatures-a-to-g-39.php

http://ddo.mmodb.com/guides/guide-to-ddo-creatures-h-to-p-40.php

http://ddo.mmodb.com/guides/guide-to-creatures-r-to-z-29.php

its a start...

Borror0
01-01-2010, 10:17 PM
They don't? Isn't that what a Monster Manual is for? :confused:
No. That's not what it is for, and not all D&D encounters can be found in the MM or follows it 100%.

Seamonkeysix
01-01-2010, 11:02 PM
No. That's not what it is for, and not all D&D encounters can be found in the MM or follows it 100%.

Ok. I give. If a Monster Manual isn't so that you can know what the different monsters are, their attributes, abilities and so forth...what's it for? Of course a DM uses it, but saying that players don't use it to get familiar with monsters in the game seems pretty unrealistic to me.

I think the OPs idea of having a compendium/monster manual of different mobs and their attributes is decent. I played PnP D&D a long time, so I am familiar with the monsters, but new players who never did could benefit from understanding the differences between giant-class, monsterous humanoid, goblinoids and so forth. Knowing the categories of the different mobs and some information about them could help iron out some of the confusion new players have.

Seamonkeysix
01-01-2010, 11:05 PM
look what i found....

http://ddo.mmodb.com/guides/guide-to-ddo-creatures-a-to-g-39.php

http://ddo.mmodb.com/guides/guide-to-ddo-creatures-h-to-p-40.php

http://ddo.mmodb.com/guides/guide-to-creatures-r-to-z-29.php

its a start...

This is nice and could be very helpful to a new player.

Stormanne
01-01-2010, 11:21 PM
Players don't get to see monster stats in D&D and I don't see why we'd need to in DDO.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to the idea. It's just that, when the arguments in favor of it are so weak, how do you justify the time expenditure?

So, you are saying that, as a D&D player, you never studied up on the MM, even if you were not going to be the DM for a game? You're saying that, if you are not a DM and are never going to be, you still wouldn't want a copy of the MM?

This would be no different. This isn't something that is make or break, this is an aside, after the more important stuff is done. It would be nice, especially for the newbies, to have some more info at hand for them. I'm not talking about an in game MM, I'm talking about something here on the DDO.com website. In game would be asinine, IMO. Maybe I should have been more clear on that matter...

And is it really a weak argument to want the new people to have some more info without having to ask (in game or on the forums) repeatedly. I mean, make up your minds here people, either you want them to have a clue or you don't. Not everyone who is going to be joining DDO will have D&D experience. This opens up DDO for them a bit. I mean really, I see people whine and complain about the new people not knowing whats going on, and then complain about ideas that would help alleviate that problem...unlike what has been done in the past to make the game more accessible, this is not an easy button...it's more like a homework assignment for them.

Borror0
01-02-2010, 12:14 AM
So, you are saying that, as a D&D player, you never studied up on the MM, even if you were not going to be the DM for a game?
My statement didn't imply that. However, if you read 3.x D&D books, you would know that the rules "forbid" that. Afterall, it is a roleplaying game.

But, if you're curious, no I didn't because the group of players I have played with didn't copy the stats from the MM so doing that would have been a waste of my time. The goal was to keep introducing new elements we would knot of from earlier campaigns.

It would be nice, especially for the newbies, to have some more info at hand for them.
To the contrary, it would make the game less friendly to new players by increasing the barrier of entry.

Right now, veteran powergamers make an estimate of what is the best set up based on what they know. Due to being an estimate, it is somewhat imperfect and thus not the penalty of making an error is being lessened. However, if all the information about monsters is being released, it means that there is more stuff to know in order to catch up to the veterans.

And is it really a weak argument to want the new people to have some more info without having to ask (in game or on the forums) repeatedly.
It's a weak argument because you didn't bring up any ways that it would improve the players' gaming experience.

I see people whine and complain about the new people not knowing whats going on, and then complain about ideas that would help alleviate that problem
Your suggestion would not help new players understanding the rules. They would need to understand the rules before finding any use to the information you're asking for, and then would only really get any use out of it if they are trying to powergame (which is not the demographic usually complaining about the lack of information).

GeneralDiomedes
01-02-2010, 12:56 AM
However, if all the information about monsters is being released, it means that there is more stuff to know in order to catch up to the veterans.

Actually, it will probably mean the opposite as it will allow anyone to gain vet knowledge without even playing.

KoboldTrapper
01-02-2010, 01:53 AM
/signed

I used to have a MM for 3.5, sold it to a friend because I only used it to ask for racial options when rolling a character for a campaign.

D&D is a roleplaying game, yes, but it is also a game so heavily dependent on resources that it's ridiculous. Yes, you are able to play with only 3 books, but they produced 25+ books for 3.0 and 3.5 for a reason.

PHB = bones, MM = organs, and DMG = brain. all other supplemental information makes up the rest of the living, breathing organism known as Dungeons and Dragons.

I don't care about your opinion on this, Mr/Mrs Hater, because nothing you can conceivably say or do, aside from say "I'm the CEO in charge of Turbine.", and prove it, can change my mind.

This 'game' lives or dies through it's players, and you just stabbed it in the heart. ~_~

GeneralDiomedes
01-02-2010, 01:59 AM
I don't care about your opinion on this, Mr/Mrs Hater, because nothing you can conceivably say or do, aside from say "I'm Gary Gygax motha' ****er.", and prove it, can change my mind.

This 'game' lives or dies through it's players, and you just stabbed it in the heart. ~_~

Feel free to contribute to the DDO Catalog.

Borror0
01-02-2010, 08:57 AM
Actually, it will probably mean the opposite as it will allow anyone to gain vet knowledge without even playing.
You'd still need to play to gain "veteran skills". It would be impossible to just gain "veteran knowledge" by simply playing, if such information was released. Knowing the rules would not be enough to estimate the best builds; each players looking to optimize would need to do their "homework assignment" (which would involve a lot of math, reading and searching).

Casual gamers don't have that level of commitment to the game and would be left behind.

A few new players might have that level of commitment but it's still more stuff to learn: rules + how to play + numbercrushing of death.

Missing_Minds
01-02-2010, 09:10 AM
Thanks for the Neg Rep. Way to go, do so and not even post who you are and why you disagree.

Shade: While that is a start, would like something a little more official from Turbine if possible. Will add what I can to the catalog there, but when I'm in game, I tend to be in game, not worried about what all is going on with the numbers..

Storm, get over it. The rep is just a high school popularity contest thing.

I doubt there will ever been an IN game catalog. The best you may be able to get out of Turbine is pictures, creature class, possibly alignment, but no real good numbers like HP, ablity stats (to save against their stuff), etc. And that would most certainly be web browsed like the forums.

The link you got above (what I quoted of you) is Mr. Cows catalog, but here is a link that is not IP dependent.

http://rageclash.net/rageclash/ddocatalog/ddocatalog.php

Strakeln
01-02-2010, 12:13 PM
IMO, Turbine could really use some major changes in their web development. I love the idea of more information being available (so long as it's reasonably accurate), but if a DDO monster manual turned into another version of myDDslOw, I think it may just be a waste of time. Here's what I mean: I like the idea of myDDO, but anytime I try to use it, it's so painfully slow that I just abandon it. And this is *after* they sped it up.

That said, this idea of Stormanne's is not new... go look at the Starcraft 2 website, or look in old Starcraft manuals. Here's the thing: in addition to containing information that may help the players play the game, it adds flavor and backstory to a lot of things.

Now, in Turbine's case, a lot of this flavor and backstory already exists (in the form of monster manuals, etc.). So it's not even a matter of coming up with it, it's a matter of compiling and presenting information. Think about it... it wouldn't take much to combine a blurb of text from various PnP books, an in-game picture or artist's concept, and some in-game stats into a webpage. Get the template set and you could burn through all DDO monsters in a week or two.


Players don't get to see other players stats in D&D and I don't see why we'd need to in DDO.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to the idea. It's just that, when the arguments in favor of it are so weak, how do you justify the time expenditure?
Modified to draw an analogy.

GeneralDiomedes
01-02-2010, 12:40 PM
You'd still need to play to gain "veteran skills". It would be impossible to just gain "veteran knowledge" by simply playing, if such information was released.


That much is obvious ..



Knowing the rules would not be enough to estimate the best builds; each players looking to optimize would need to do their "homework assignment" (which would involve a lot of math, reading and searching).


That work is done on a daily basis and posted in the form of builds. There is nothing for the casual to do other than copy the build.

Also, in my experience, the monster stats are most useful for quest specific tactics. i.e. Which spells do I cast; which buffs should I have; should I optimize my equipped gear for saves or AC or DR; which weapon do I need; do I turn off Power Attack, etc.



Casual gamers don't have that level of commitment to the game


I don't know many vets who would have that level of commitment either. Most simply learn through osmosis.



and would be left behind.


Casual gamers are already left behind, but not due to lack of knowledge, rather lack of equipment.



A few new players might have that level of commitment but it's still more stuff to learn: rules + how to play + numbercrushing of death.

It's not more to learn - the information is out there right now.

All I see it doing is allowing one aspect of gameplay - monster statistics - to be obtained other than through gameplay thereby potentially removing one difference between a vet and a non-vet.

dredre9987
01-02-2010, 12:57 PM
/signed

Borror0
01-02-2010, 02:33 PM
I don't know many vets who would have that level of commitment either. Most simply learn through osmosis.
Commitment to an activity that does not yet exist? Interesting.

Cnasual gamers are already left behind, but not due to lack of knowledge, rather lack of equipment.
Casual gamers are already behind both in terms of knowledge and equipment. This does not suffice as a reason to justify increasing the gap.

It's not more to learn - the information is out there right now.
If this was true, you could easily tell me the AC of all the end game red or purple named mobs on Normal, Hard, Elite and Epic. However, you can't. If such information was easily available as the OP requests it to be, that information would be useful in determining the optimum to-hit for end game fights/quest. Those who would not be aware of all those numbers would be left behind in that they would not be set at the optimum value.

However, right now, the numbers are estimated and the real results are not really that important.

MrCow
01-02-2010, 02:38 PM
If this was true, you could easily tell me the AC of all the end game red or purple named mobs on Normal, Hard, Elite and Epic. However, you can't. If such information was easily available as the OP requests it to be, that information would be useful in determining the optimum to-hit for end game fights/quest. Those who would not be aware of all those numbers would be left behind in that they would not be set at the optimum value.

However, right now, the numbers are estimated and the real results are not really that important.

... but monster AC is quantifiable as the dice rolls are visible on the failures and success. That example is not a number that is estimated when properly recorded.

Borror0
01-02-2010, 03:21 PM
... but monster AC is quantifiable as the dice rolls are visible on the failures and success. That example is not a number that is estimated when properly recorded.
When properly recorded is key here. No one ever goes through the work of compiling spell DCs, ACs, HPs, etc. although all of that can easily be measured. Other than you, Angelus_dead, Maels and I, I don't remember players really posting or recording such data which is why I said that it was estimated.

It does not have to be estimated, but it currently is.

Stormanne
01-02-2010, 05:04 PM
While at work, I've been thinking all day about what my replies would be to the things said since my last post. Over and over, a lot of inflammatory things came to mind about attacking peoples integrity(for no reason), calling out shenanigans when I think I see them (whether they existed or not), and the like. That would be completely useless and uncalled for. I know of people in game that have, over mic, referenced the 3.xx MM for finding out about resistances and bypassing DR/. I figure that that happens more often than even the forum heavy-weights that are against this will admit, including themselves at some point or another, past or present.

I think that having information available is never going to be a bad idea. Hell, I'd be thrilled for a DDO version of the PHB. Maybe that will be my next suggestion...
That said, I would not want this to be an in game addition. Just an addition to the DDO.com website. And a low priority addition at that.

Borror0, in all honesty, I thought you of all people, with all the work you've done on the Wiki to bring more information to the players, would be in support of a MM for DDO. It would be good, in the right context, for adding to the gaming experience for the player base by pointing them in the right direction on monster DR/ and weaknesses. Maybe even leave out the big six stats altogether. Just have the basic AC, SR, DR/ for normal encounters and leave the rest to be figured out.

Borror0
01-02-2010, 08:36 PM
[...] a lot of inflammatory things came to mind about attacking peoples integrity(for no reason), calling out shenanigans when I think I see them (whether they existed or not), and the like. That would be completely useless and uncalled for.
+rep

Hell, I'd be thrilled for a DDO version of the PHB. Maybe that will be my next suggestion...
That is long overdue...

Borror0, in all honesty, I thought you of all people, with all the work you've done on the Wiki to bring more information to the players, would be in support of a MM for DDO.
Selfishly, yeah, I'd love it. The numbercruncher and theorycrater in me scream with glee at the thought of such information being available without having to spend loads of time on testing. However, I know that I'm crazy and that very few people suffer from the same mental illness that I do.

Other than entertain crazy people like me, what else would it do? Again, nothing good.

It would be good, in the right context, for adding to the gaming experience for the player base by pointing them in the right direction on monster DR/ and weaknesses.
I'm of the belief that this sort of information (weaknesses) is universally fun to discover: "Yay, I found out how to kill the big bad boss!" Old school video games often rested on that principle, and it still works. That's because endorphins are released in the brain when you find a solution to a problem.

If the learning/complexity curve is off so that a significant part of the playerbase can't figure out the weaknesses of particular mobs (and there is a lot of that in DDO), then it would make more sense to fix the design than to invest in some sort of MM. Not only would you deprive players from the joy of figuring it out themselves but you're also making the bet that those players will tab out of the game and look up the information to progress any further (which is not a bet I would be willing to take) and overlooking an existing flaw in your game.

donfilibuster
01-02-2010, 10:55 PM
One thing that is overlooked even in PnP is that the monsters can be improved using the Monster Manual rules.
It is the DM's choice to use the monsters straight from the book or adjust if the party needs more challenge, such as if the players differ from the intended level or gaming style or to fit the world setting.
Thus it make sense that since eberron is a high magic setting, etc. the monsters would be as buffed as the heroes.
Out-of-character this means that every monster will have a bump up in stats equivalent to adding monster HD and class levels, including all low threat monsters like oozes, spiders, skeletons and zombies.
That the actual hp of monsters may be off scale is still an issue of course.

KoboldTrapper
01-03-2010, 05:51 PM
...Not only would you deprive players from the joy of figuring it out themselves but you're also making the bet that those players will tab out of the game and look up the information to progress any further...

A fair amount of these people that you are 'defending' are coming from other MMOs, and don't give a damn about solving anything, or figuring something out for themselves. Why do you think Game Info websites exist? A free game > a p2p only game. Especially if that f2p game is already superior to their old game.

WoW has incredibly few, if any, that can be called puzzles. Monsters didn't truly have weaknesses, here, they do. Ranged characters were viable, here, not so much.
Inability to adapt, or lack of desire to do so, is a problem since all these players refuse to listen to the more experienced players because "Well I spent 4 years playing WoW with 2 accounts of maxed characters." Also known as the "You can't tell me how to play an MMO, I know what I'm doing!" quickly followed by "You won't party with me because your character sucks." which is followed by "/ragequit." and the forums getting flamed before the moron is banned.

I'm not saying everyone is like this, but other MMOs build habits that are very hard to break one's self of.

Uska
01-03-2010, 06:14 PM
Not me I even liked it better in pnp when I didnt know, but I wouldnt vote against one here for those who wanted it I just would try not read it.

Bolo_Grubb
01-04-2010, 03:06 PM
I just want some basic information on monster types.

Example Kolbold What are they weak too what are they resistant too. What monster class do they belong too? Humanoid? Reptile? Animal?

I do not necessarily need detailed differences between a thrower, sneak and shaman.

SoulDecay
01-04-2010, 03:35 PM
I just want some basic information on monster types.

Example Kolbold What are they weak too what are they resistant too. What monster class do they belong too? Humanoid? Reptile? Animal?

I do not necessarily need detailed differences between a thrower, sneak and shaman.

You can get that in-game. Hard-target them (click on them) and then hit E to examine, and it will tell you the type (Such as Reptilian) and subtype (such as Kobold)

Although that's not always terribly convienent to do in combat.