PDA

View Full Version : Don't buy Threnal Ruins adventure pack



voidholder
01-01-2010, 04:26 AM
I'm so frustrated with Threnal Ruins adventure pack now, I have to voice my opinion on it. It is the first adventure pack I regret buying. Well, Tangleroot was nothing special either, very repetitive, but at least it wasn't a complete waste.

Threnal has a small outdoor area, 3 independent very short quests, and a quest chain where you have to complete a long series of quests for an end reward. The lenght of it makes it a bit difficult to find groups to there. The quests are for levels 8-12 (good luck on level 8 :).

My problem is with the awful quest design in 2 quests in the Threnal East, preventing to complete the chain. I've now wasted 6 hours or so with this one quest which keeps failing, for no exp at all.

SPOILERS on threnal east 2nd/3rd:
In the 2nd quest you need to protect an NPC from dying or you fail. He likes to die in various ways. The quest is very very long and filled with annoying mobs like rust monsters and clay golems. And the end fight is really hard, at least very very hard to prevent the NPC from getting killed in it. I have no clue how the designers expect a casual player to manage it on appropriate level? With an end mob with AC over 34 (EDIT=53) on normal, which is spamming flame strike on a suicidal NPC?

--
EDIT: I realized on page 2 that it was DA (from stationary mobs!) which was boosting the mobs AC so high that it couldn't be hit without rolling 20. That makes me understand that the difficulty, while high, is not absurd. It is instead Dungeon Alert that is ruining this quest line.
--

That said, we nearly made it last night (there are ways to protect the NPC from harm until the end fight, which I guess you learn from trial, error and repetition). But just no way to protect him in the end fight. We actually killed the end boss yesterday, but our NPC died at the same time --> failure and very little interest in trying it again.

To add negatives, I've heard that the next quest in line also includes protecting that npc in an even harder fight! Unavoidable dungeon alert will likely make it near impossible to complete.

Now, I don't mind difficult, but to make an npc protection quest this long and then add an insane end fight to it? And ruining the next quest with dungeon alert? I have heard that Threnal has always been accused of varying quest difficulty, now I know why. These quests should be fixed before I'd ever recommend this quest pack to casual players.

For experienced players: I will finish this quest one day since I paid for it. Any hints other than getting a better group to play with?

toughguyjoe
01-01-2010, 04:31 AM
Well, First off, In Threnal East 2, you can take Coyle to the Library door and park him there, safe from harm. You do not need to take him through the entire quest. You may already know this, just putting it out there.

In the last fight, buff Coyle with Displacement, Fire Resist and Protection, and StoneSkin. If you do not have these buffs he will die much quicker. Also, once Agro is established on a player, try and turn the Reaver So Coyle is in the back beating on him, and then The reavers flame attacks will miss him more often.

One thing is this quest chain is pretty difficult. It has always been a challenge for Pugs, and mostly takes good groups of players who know eachother and work well to get it done. Keep trying and eventually you will succeed.

Arlith
01-01-2010, 04:37 AM
The quest requires you to pay some attention but it is not hard.

For east 2 - Keep Coyle out of harms way. Have whoever he is trailing along behind keep far enough back that he does not agro and rush in to fight. Park him at the library before you run the side tunnels.

You can heal/buff Coyle.

For east three, you can "knock coyle out", though that does have its disadvantages. Weliked it however. Especially those of us who have been running Threnal for years. Last group I was in we spent more time putting Coyle down on the ground than killing mobs. Payabck for past irritations.

Other than that, it is pretty much a beat down.

If east three makes you run from the quest screaming, don't ever run the caravan.

ZeroTakenaka
01-01-2010, 04:42 AM
Have a healer like a Paladin Ranger Bard heal Coyle while buffing him with certain useful buffs
Assuming you have a wizard lvl 10 or 11 then use: Blur, Displacement, MCoE, Invisibility is good assuming he doesn't attack, Resists, Protection from Elements, Heroism(Greater Heroism if you're lvl 11... Temp. HP buff and saves bonus), Stoneskin(Essentially a massive HP buff of 100ish HP if the monsters don't use adamantine)

The big ones here are Displacement, Protection from Elements, and Resists. Displacement gives a 50% miss chance. Resists resist any elemental dmg thrown at him.

No, I do not have Ruins of Threnal but the buffs on the NPCs are in general a good thing to do.

Also, Crowd Control Crowd Control Crowd Control! Webs, hold monster, dominate person, etc.

voidholder
01-01-2010, 05:01 AM
Thanks for the tips. I know how you can manage Coyle up until the last fight, although that did take a couple of retries due to wandering monsters & him getting cursed by a clay golem (learned yesterday that he can also be parked safely inside the first shrine). Was trying to two-man this in the first attempts, and it proved way too hard for that.

We had fire protection and dedicated healers on Coyle in the last fight yesterday, but no displacement or stoneskin. I guess the problem was mostly not able to damage the boss fast enough? AC 35+ is way more than I've encountered in the game so far. I did not think myself as gimped before but suddenly i noticed that I miss on roll 19 with +15 to hit :o

It was my most disheartening moment in the game so far, seeing the thing finally go down, only to be prompted that Coyle has died and thrown out instantly.

It's not the hardness that I find annoying, its that quest design where you have a very good chance of spending a lot of time for something and then end up with nothing for it. Also that this requires an ideal group with correct classes to throw the needed buffs & heals, correct weapons to fight various mobs etc. Not for casual players!

Clay
01-01-2010, 05:18 AM
I admit that I love this series... always have, even before you could heal/buff Coyle.

If you are on Thelanis, I would be happy to help you thru it and show you the strategies.

I might have a couple characters on Sarlona that might be close to level appropriate. Even if you were to make a temporary character on Thelanis...

The series has always been interesteing in terms of Story line. The recent cosmetic changes also improved the "excavation" feel.

Send me a PM if you want to "meet up" in game and I can outline strategies for you.

ZeroTakenaka
01-01-2010, 05:20 AM
Thanks for the tips. I know how you can manage Coyle up until the last fight, although that did take a couple of retries due to wandering monsters & him getting cursed by a clay golem (learned yesterday that he can also be parked safely inside the first shrine). Was trying to two-man this in the first attempts, and it proved way too hard for that.

We had fire protection and dedicated healers on Coyle in the last fight yesterday, but no displacement or stoneskin. I guess the problem was mostly not able to damage the boss fast enough? AC 35+ is way more than I've encountered in the game so far. I did not think myself as gimped before but suddenly i noticed that I miss on roll 19 with +15 to hit :o

It was my most disheartening moment in the game so far, seeing the thing finally go down, only to be prompted that Coyle has died and thrown out instantly.

It's not the hardness that I find annoying, its that quest design where you have a very good chance of spending a lot of time for something and then end up with nothing for it. Also that this requires an ideal group with correct classes to throw the needed buffs & heals, correct weapons to fight various mobs etc. Not for casual players!

+15 to hit?

Hmm

Fighter lvl 10 if you're a full BAB class should have maybe +20 to hit? I don't know. I need a guide on how to get my tohit higher?

voidholder
01-01-2010, 07:13 AM
On Cannith only, appreciate the offer though Clay. I can see the series not being bad if you know what you are doing and don't need to repeat quests for no exp.

True about the strangely low attack bonus... Seems that my attack should have normally been at +18/19 (dual wielding), at least looking at the tooltip in the inventory tab. I don't know why in that fight it only added 15, maybe it debuffed me in some way?

Letrii
01-01-2010, 07:41 AM
Did you switch to a non-proficient weapon by chance?

Lorien_the_First_One
01-01-2010, 08:00 AM
Its a tough quest alright, but it is completable, and it includes lots of favor and xp. Some of the end rewards are nice, including the "Mantle of the Worldshaper" robe which is very valuable.

chubbs99
01-01-2010, 08:02 AM
I love this series, however since it is a premium pack, just like many of the mid range packs they're are slim pickings for groups. And you usually always have to do West & East if your planning to do south cause you know someone will need it making it even less appealing to join pugs beacuse you know you'll be in a multi hour grind to get them done and then still need to do south and before you do south you know someone is going to drop and its just a headache :p

What you need to do is get a group of your friends together and run it as a static group, be prepaired to fail east 3 a few hundred times cause it is tricky even when you know what your doing. It is a great chain for its level, the exp is great (provided you don't die and release to the point you no longer get any exp... just reset at that point :p) and you can get Mantle of the Worldshaper (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Lamannia/MantleoftheWorldshaper.jpg) Which alone may not do you much good, but paired with the Voice of the Master (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Trinkets/VoiceoftheMaster.jpg) gives you DM vision (True Seeing). My almost level 18 monk rarely takes this combo off 'cause being able to hit those blurred mobs without having to worry about their blurr / displacement is great (and I haven't pulled my Bloodstone yet :p), plus all the extra benifits are nice too. Worth the royal pain to get IMO :)

If only Turbine would increase the time the guest pass lasts for this adventure pack... Cause 90 minutes is really a joke, and I doubt anyone is willing to shell out the probably 2-3 guest passes just to run with 1 friend through here. Actually, this is one adventure pack I wouldn't mind see being delisted as preimum and give full acess to F2P just to get groups out there more, cause the new player base is really missing out. The only problem would be how do you compensate those who already bought it, or would they even bother :p

Shade
01-01-2010, 08:03 AM
At lvl10, 34 AC is too high?
Not really.
34 AC is the nerfed versions . years ago it was around 40. Also some other harder quests featured monsters with a 50+ AC at lvl10 heh.

Should be a joke to hit it on a roll of 2 on a proper melee build, with the most basic gear available to anyone, and 1 buff from a friendly wiz/sorc/bard.

Say lvl10 Dwarf Barbarian using a Garzuls Bane (+3 greataxe)
Base: 10
Str: 20 base, +4 item +8 rage +2 rage potion +2 frenzy = 36 +13
Anger Setbonus from Korthos: +2
Dwarven Axe attack +2
GH: +4
Haste: +1
= +35, hit on a roll of 2, confrim crits on a roll of 1
Add bard songs and also hitting on a 2 with power attack on.
Can kill the boss in 2 swings with that weapon also. Commonly available on the auction house for 25-50kpp. Or even just the basic carnifex or a plain old +5 greataxe will suffice to down him within 6 seconds.

So yea +15 to hit at lvl10 is severely gimped. Fix your to-hit value or recruit a proper melee to complete the quest for you.

Tip for that fight tho:
Do right first, save left for after and save the shrine. Hit the left lever opening the door, then go shrine - Coyle doesn't move until you approach him. Do a extend haste at the shrine. then run for the boss. A barbarian, ranger or monk can easily quickly outpace coyle and jump over him to get the initial agro, then pull the boss away from coyle where he can never be hurt.

Tho if you position coyle far enough back you can actaully use plain +20 striders on any slow class and still reach the boss in time.

My recommendation:
Definetely Buy Ruins of Threnal pack. It rocks. It has by far the best xp at that lvl, and best loot. Along with great quests that really make you think and provide a good challenge.

Gleep_Wurp
01-01-2010, 08:18 AM
dance balls and firewalls in part3.have 1 person manage coyle and its a cakewalk.smiters help (lvl6 mace of smiting was my favorite)

dunklezhan
01-01-2010, 08:24 AM
Should be a joke to hit it on a roll of 2 on a proper melee build, with the most basic gear available to anyone, and 1 buff from a friendly wiz/sorc/bard.

Say lvl10 Dwarf Barbarian using a Garzuls Bane (+3 greataxe)
Base: 10
Str: 20 base, +4 item +8 rage +2 rage potion +2 frenzy = 36 +13
Anger Setbonus from Korthos: +2
Dwarven Axe attack +2
GH: +4
Haste: +1
= +35, hit on a roll of 2, confrim crits on a roll of 1
Add bard songs and also hitting on a 2 with power attack on.
Can kill the boss in 2 swings with that weapon also. Commonly available on the auction house for 25-50kpp. Or even just the basic carnifex or a plain old +5 greataxe will suffice to down him within 6 seconds.

So yea +15 to hit at lvl10 is severely gimped. Fix your to-hit value or recruit a proper melee to complete the quest for you.


dude, that's not a joke for a casual player, that's some proper planning and gear acquisition you're talking about there. if you're saying that a plain old +5 greataxe will suffice, how is a named item (Garzul's Bane) remotely 'the most basic gear available to anyone'? You have a very different definition of 'basic' and 'anyone' than I do, that's for sure! Is it a common drop from a wandering rare in an outdoor area? Anything else would presumably mean it can only be obtained as a quest reward which the Premium players in question may not have access to. Presumably its also a (very expensive) buy from the AH. The plain old +5 greataxe may be very easily available, but I'd bet this Garzul's Bane probably isn't, depending on how it is obtained. The other +items/equipment/buffs are also not available to anyone. Most of them are only available to a barbarian and in one case only a dwarf barbarian at that. Unless you also happen to only consider dwarf barbarians to be 'proper' melee builds, your post is unfair to someone who has clearly stated they are a casual player.

Its also a bit passive/aggressive - 'get a proper melee build' implies that the character the player currently has is pointless, which is a veiled insult at best. It may simply be that the build they have needs tweaking, possibly only with the right gear (I have to wonder for example whether the OP needs to swap from dual wielding - I've only been playing a very limited time, but I know that's a biggie for your to hit value!).

Shade - I can see that your join date is '06, clearly you have lots of experience and your tips at the end are very helpful. But I think you may have forgotten what its like to be new to the game, and making out that hitting the AC in question is a 'joke' is tantamount to insulting the OP for not being able to acheive something so mind bogglingly easy in your opinion. And that's just not very nice.

Other than that, which just irked me (sorry Shade, my post isn't meant as a personal attack. Just the way you replied got my back up and I needed to vent. Apologies), this is an interesting thread, and some good points about the problems of something of this difficulty being a premium pack and the consequences for PuGging. I'll bear it in mind when the static group I'm in gets this far - we have a bard, Cleric and human kensai fighter, hopefully the buffs available by then with those classes will be enough.

MrWizard
01-01-2010, 08:45 AM
I remember starting out and a lot of quests like this were tough.

Little knowledge of what DR was made it hard to do damage.
Seriously non-uber weapons made it hard to beat things like renders down when I first met them.

Mobs are hard when you are new. Quests are very hard when you have not run them a 1000 times like most of us.

Not having uber weapons and good knowledge makes it really hard too.

On top of all that, still learning how to build toons and work within a party makes it even more difficult. Add to that casters with little knowledge of crowd control and that dungeon set is very hard the first few times.


Each time you repeat it (and you will repeat it many times) you will get better, gain levels, and get equipment and knowledge that makes it much easier.

Renders and flensers and reavers at level 8 is hard though until you get the gear and toon built very well.

This is a great chain for FAST xp if you get a group that knows how to just push through quickly with good gear.
It will be easier when you are 11th and 12th level too....

voidholder
01-01-2010, 08:56 AM
Say lvl10 Dwarf Barbarian using a Garzuls Bane (+3 greataxe)
Base: 10
Str: 20 base, +4 item +8 rage +2 rage potion +2 frenzy = 36 +13
Anger Setbonus from Korthos: +2
Dwarven Axe attack +2
GH: +4
Haste: +1
= +35, hit on a roll of 2, confrim crits on a roll of 1
Add bard songs and also hitting on a 2 with power attack on.
Can kill the boss in 2 swings with that weapon also. Commonly available on the auction house for 25-50kpp. Or even just the basic carnifex or a plain old +5 greataxe will suffice to down him within 6 seconds.

So yea +15 to hit at lvl10 is severely gimped. Fix your to-hit value or recruit a proper melee to complete the quest for you.

Don't know what that spesific weapon gives, but I surely don't have half a million gold on Cannith when my highest level character just made level 11...

Normally I can get
+3 weapon
+5 str (17 base, +3 item. 28pt build with no tomes)
+1 ram's might
+1 insight item
+2 anger's
+9 BAB
-2 TWF (although might be necessary to drop that in this fight =)

so +18 is the normal attack bonus. Add to that the situational

+1 rage (spell, from item)
+2 from attack boost (yeh getting desperate now)
drop second weapon

So at the highest it is at +23 (level 11). We were lacking an arcane caster so no those bonuses. I am afraid though, that standard casual PUGger is closer to the +15 mentioned. Saying that is trivial to get to +33 attack bonus with basic gear is really pushing the definition of basic gear and average player, imo, even if you count in access to arcane buffs.

Maybe this fight is annoying since it is a lot harder than anything before that, so you really need to get every edge you can, and really have functional divine and arcane casters and melee. Difficult to get that from a PUG, and would be nice to get that reality check on a quest that wasn't in the middle of the chain and taking so long to repeat.

Angelus_dead
01-01-2010, 09:05 AM
+1 ram's might
If you have Ram's Might, you're a Ranger, so there's a Favored Enemy attack bonus as well.


Saying that is trivial to get to +33 attack bonus with basic gear is really pushing the definition of basic gear and average player, imo, even if you count in access to arcane buffs.
That's true, but the battle against that boss is not difficult regardless. The earlier sections of the quest are more difficult, as things like Mephits and even Rust Monsters have a better chance of doing real damage. Once you get down to a single enemy boss it's easier to control the situation.

Kreaper
01-01-2010, 09:13 AM
dude, that's not a joke for a casual player, that's some proper planning and gear acquisition you're talking about there. if you're saying that a plain old +5 greataxe will suffice, how is a named item (Garzul's Bane) remotely 'the most basic gear available to anyone'? You have a very different definition of 'basic' and 'anyone' than I do, that's for sure! Is it a common drop from a wandering rare in an outdoor area? Anything else would presumably mean it can only be obtained as a quest reward which the Premium players in question may not have access to. Presumably its also a (very expensive) buy from the AH. The plain old +5 greataxe may be very easily available, but I'd bet this Garzul's Bane probably isn't, depending on how it is obtained. The other +items/equipment/buffs are also not available to anyone. Most of them are only available to a barbarian and in one case only a dwarf barbarian at that. Unless you also happen to only consider dwarf barbarians to be 'proper' melee builds, your post is unfair to someone who has clearly stated they are a casual player.

Its also a bit passive/aggressive - 'get a proper melee build' implies that the character the player currently has is pointless, which is a veiled insult at best. It may simply be that the build they have needs tweaking, possibly only with the right gear (I have to wonder for example whether the OP needs to swap from dual wielding - I've only been playing a very limited time, but I know that's a biggie for your to hit value!).

Shade - I can see that your join date is '06, clearly you have lots of experience and your tips at the end are very helpful. But I think you may have forgotten what its like to be new to the game, and making out that hitting the AC in question is a 'joke' is tantamount to insulting the OP for not being able to acheive something so mind bogglingly easy in your opinion. And that's just not very nice.

Other than that, which just irked me (sorry Shade, my post isn't meant as a personal attack. Just the way you replied got my back up and I needed to vent. Apologies), this is an interesting thread, and some good points about the problems of something of this difficulty being a premium pack and the consequences for PuGging. I'll bear it in mind when the static group I'm in gets this far - we have a bard, Cleric and human kensai fighter, hopefully the buffs available by then with those classes will be enough.

Dude, settle down. Garzul's Bane drops in Invaders fairly frequently.

Sirea
01-01-2010, 09:22 AM
dude, that's not a joke for a casual player, that's some proper planning and gear acquisition you're talking about there. if you're saying that a plain old +5 greataxe will suffice, how is a named item (Garzul's Bane) remotely 'the most basic gear available to anyone'? You have a very different definition of 'basic' and 'anyone' than I do, that's for sure! Is it a common drop from a wandering rare in an outdoor area? Anything else would presumably mean it can only be obtained as a quest reward which the Premium players in question may not have access to. Presumably its also a (very expensive) buy from the AH. The plain old +5 greataxe may be very easily available, but I'd bet this Garzul's Bane probably isn't, depending on how it is obtained. The other +items/equipment/buffs are also not available to anyone. Most of them are only available to a barbarian and in one case only a dwarf barbarian at that. Unless you also happen to only consider dwarf barbarians to be 'proper' melee builds, your post is unfair to someone who has clearly stated they are a casual player.

Its also a bit passive/aggressive - 'get a proper melee build' implies that the character the player currently has is pointless, which is a veiled insult at best. It may simply be that the build they have needs tweaking, possibly only with the right gear (I have to wonder for example whether the OP needs to swap from dual wielding - I've only been playing a very limited time, but I know that's a biggie for your to hit value!).

Shade - I can see that your join date is '06, clearly you have lots of experience and your tips at the end are very helpful. But I think you may have forgotten what its like to be new to the game, and making out that hitting the AC in question is a 'joke' is tantamount to insulting the OP for not being able to acheive something so mind bogglingly easy in your opinion. And that's just not very nice.

Other than that, which just irked me (sorry Shade, my post isn't meant as a personal attack. Just the way you replied got my back up and I needed to vent. Apologies), this is an interesting thread, and some good points about the problems of something of this difficulty being a premium pack and the consequences for PuGging. I'll bear it in mind when the static group I'm in gets this far - we have a bard, Cleric and human kensai fighter, hopefully the buffs available by then with those classes will be enough.

Actually, Shade's including some very basic things in his breakdown, most of which should be readily available to even the most casual player. A lvl 10 should have come across a +4 stat item by now, if not sometimes you can find then cheap on the AH or even from a broker. The Anger Set he's referring to is a static drop from the Korthos (starter island) quests, which surprisingly a lot of the gear out there is relevant for longer than you'd think. Rage potions can be bought, the rest is in your enhancements, which can easily be reset if they aren't to your liking.

The only thing he mentioned that a new player might not have is the Greataxe; Garzuul's Bane (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Weapon:Garzuul%27s_Bane) is a +3 Holy Cold Iron Greataxe, which I'm sure he was referring to because it'll bypass render DR. It drops from Invaders!, a f2p quest in the Harbor. But you can always shoot for a Carnifex from Delera's, it won't bypass render DR but should still deal some decent damage.

Having GH at level 10 could be tricky too unless you have either a Planar Gird or a level 11 Wizard or level 12 Sorc in your party (or one a couple levels lower if they are willing to use scrolls with a slight failure rate).

So while it seems like there's a lot to his calculation most of it's not really that hard to obtain.

voidholder
01-01-2010, 09:23 AM
If you have Ram's Might, you're a Ranger, so there's a Favored Enemy attack bonus as well.

Yep but not applicable to that particular fight. Might get some more attack bonus from some consumables, have to return the festivult coins and see.



That's true, but the battle against that boss is not difficult regardless. The earlier sections of the quest are more difficult, as things like Mephits and even Rust Monsters have a better chance of doing real damage. Once you get down to a single enemy boss it's easier to control the situation.

Yes the earlier quest has some mobs you need certain weapons to take down, but for example the rust monsters seem easy to me since I can hit them easily (and sneak attack them). Also the major difference is that the end fight has Coyle to worry about :/

Sirea
01-01-2010, 09:29 AM
Yep but not applicable to that particular fight. Might get some more attack bonus from some consumables, have to return the festivult coins and see.

If you have FE: Evil Outsider, then yes, it is applicable in East 3.

bcgone
01-01-2010, 09:44 AM
Void,

I'm sorry to hear about your frustration. Threnal is notoriously hard to get groups for, although the entire chain is worth enormous amounts of favor and xp. The fact that its so hard to keep your toon on the correct chapter etc makes it very frustrating, even for us veterans with access to over 10M plat+ with all of our capped toons. If I take one of my level 20s and post an LFM I would have a very hard time getting any bites. Granted a 20 caster or cleric could solo this stuff. My point is that Threnal is not real popular due to these idiosyncracies and due to the ease of getting thru levels 8-12 via other content (such as gianthold etc).

As an aside, the second series of Necropolis quests can be worth a great deal of favor and xp and a little easier than threnal if you can get yourself the tangleroot deathward clicky or a good cleric.

I hope you stick it out, get a 11-12 caster and cleric and some stick swingers and you will eventually make it. Best of luck.

Tote

Noctus
01-01-2010, 09:44 AM
While Shade´s tips are good, i see how new/casual players will how have the gear he files under "basic".

Those characters have almost no twinking. (Buying ML=character level stuff out of the AH counts as twinking). No Planar Girds, no Garzuul´s Bane, many of them didnt pick the Anger set out of Korthos, dont have +4 stat items with ML 9 on their level 10 characters and so on.

What the OP can do her is buy:
* Bull Strength potions,
* Heroism Potions,
* Haste potions.
* Rage potions,
and run the one Korthos quest to get the insight Googles.

(* ask his Cleric friend for a Recitation)

As well as trying to replace their weapon with a higher + one.

haunter
01-01-2010, 09:46 AM
On Cannith only, appreciate the offer though Clay. I can see the series not being bad if you know what you are doing and don't need to repeat quests for no exp.

True about the strangely low attack bonus... Seems that my attack should have normally been at +18/19 (dual wielding), at least looking at the tooltip in the inventory tab. I don't know why in that fight it only added 15, maybe it debuffed me in some way?

One bit of math that many forget/don't know about, without the spring attack feat, -4 to attacks while moving.

Thailand_Dan
01-01-2010, 09:54 AM
dude, that's not a joke for a casual player, that's some proper planning and gear acquisition you're talking about there. if you're saying that a plain old +5 greataxe will suffice, how is a named item (Garzul's Bane) remotely 'the most basic gear available to anyone'? You have a very different definition of 'basic' and 'anyone' than I do, that's for sure! Is it a common drop from a wandering rare in an outdoor area? Anything else would presumably mean it can only be obtained as a quest reward which the Premium players in question may not have access to. Presumably its also a (very expensive) buy from the AH. The plain old +5 greataxe may be very easily available, but I'd bet this Garzul's Bane probably isn't, depending on how it is obtained. The other +items/equipment/buffs are also not available to anyone. Most of them are only available to a barbarian and in one case only a dwarf barbarian at that. Unless you also happen to only consider dwarf barbarians to be 'proper' melee builds, your post is unfair to someone who has clearly stated they are a casual player.



Garzul's bane is a Holy Cold-Iron Great ax which can drops from Invaders when you get , IIRC, the Ice Render end-boss. As this is a common quest run at lvl 10 - 14, especially for F2Ps, it makes sense to try and farm one at around the same level as Thernal. But, from the PuGs I've run with, most new players wont have a weapon of this quality heading into Thernal. It is a sweet weapon, though, making many quests a lot easier.

I would recommend that new players take advantage of Dragon.Star's loot Thread. When I was a new player and was hitting the wall on a mid level toon, feeling my gear or weapons were sub-par, I'd take a look at this thread to see how I could upgrade. There are many quests which frequently drop very powerful items for their level, as well as, certain turn-ins which are must-haves as you level up:

Durk's - Muckbanes
The Pit - Muck's Doom
Waterworks - Black widow bracers
Tangelroot: +3 Stat Items, Wiz 2, Deathward Clickie
Sharn Syndicate: +1 Elemental Weapons (with pretty useless kickers), including a light weapon, +5 Search/DD items.
Necro IV - Taps Turn in for Minos (Full fort + 20 stackable HPs)
Necro III - Upgraded necklace absorbs Beholder spells
HIPS - Bottle of Air
Sorrowdusk - bat - Feather fall on a trinket, frost sickle (great twink weapon for lowbees, or it was until Sharn Syndicate came out)
Delera's - UMD +3, +5% XP bonus with +1 luck


And MOST of these items show up pretty frequently. Give it a look, see what you could really use, and go run those quests. These aren't high level quests or raids. Several are P2P, but you are going to need to buy packs eventually if you want to get to higher levels. And I think the rarest thing on this list, is a Muck's Doom, and even that seems to be dropping a lot more than in the past.


Link to Loot Thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=121279&highlight=definitive

And if I can throw something out here, to all new players reaching mid levels, get a Planar Gird or be able to UMD Greater Heroism Scrolls. This buff is very important for every character in the game, regardless of class, and helps out in so many ways. Get running Xorian cypher or save up for one on the AH.

Zenako
01-01-2010, 10:12 AM
Just recruit a bard. Almost everything that matters in those fights can be fascinated which stops them in there tracks to be picked off one by one. The whole threnal series (except for the golems and oozes) (and with Song of the Makers can handle the golems too) are very manageable with some songs. This is one of the quest chains where a bard can shine.

At around those levels most bards also get to pick up "Disco Ball" and that can make the end fights an almost boring ten minute fight.

A few points. They have made the fight in threnal east 3 a lot easier with the abillity to tell Coyle to take a nap (and keep out of the way). What makes this battle hard, like all of the timed ones where you have to defend, is that you are not in control of the pace. In most quests, you can pump up for a burst fight, do the fight and then recover before moving on. That makes it a lot easier for groups of less knowledgeable players to manage things. In Thren East 3, you do not have the luxury of downtime to regroup with. Everyone needs to be on the same page and able to handle a certain amount of things themselves. I have seen groups snag a hirelings cleric, park them next to Coyle with instructions to heal and that seems to work ok too.

Bottom line in battles like this is that you need to have one of two things a) effective crowd control (songs, dancing balls, hypnotism, even charms) or b) superior DPS ability so that mobs die fast and you can stay well ahead of them (DPS could be melee types or area of effect spells like Firewall or Blade Barrier). Most common reasons for failure are that groups lack both above and the spawning rate of the mobs is such that instead of a handful of one on one battles with time to recover (drink a pot or whatever) you quickly end up with many on one battles and with characters either dying or having to change focus for a bit and losing control of the situation.

Alas my Cannith toons are only around level 6 ish so unable to effectively help. And seriously, on Cannith and Orien, there is almost certainly a smaller percentage of the gaming population both geared to handle those quests or that knows or owns them, making the potential player pool smaller than you would find on the older servers. while someone on the new server has had 4 or 5 months to gather and improve their loot, lots of the vets on older servers have closer to 40 months of gaming to have gathered and improve their loot. (there are various weapon forms that drop from Invaders besides just the greataxe that support other styles of melee.)

Kaldais
01-01-2010, 11:08 AM
Don't know what that spesific weapon gives, but I surely don't have half a million gold on Cannith when my highest level character just made level 11...

Normally I can get
+3 weapon
+5 str (17 base, +3 item. 28pt build with no tomes)
+1 ram's might
+1 insight item
+2 anger's
+9 BAB
-2 TWF (although might be necessary to drop that in this fight =)

so +18 is the normal attack bonus. Add to that the situational

+1 rage (spell, from item)
+2 from attack boost (yeh getting desperate now)
drop second weapon

So at the highest it is at +23 (level 11). We were lacking an arcane caster so no those bonuses. I am afraid though, that standard casual PUGger is closer to the +15 mentioned. Saying that is trivial to get to +33 attack bonus with basic gear is really pushing the definition of basic gear and average player, imo, even if you count in access to arcane buffs.

Maybe this fight is annoying since it is a lot harder than anything before that, so you really need to get every edge you can, and really have functional divine and arcane casters and melee. Difficult to get that from a PUG, and would be nice to get that reality check on a quest that wasn't in the middle of the chain and taking so long to repeat.

Why do you have +9 BAB as a level 11 ranger?

You can also drink a heroism potion which will give +2 to hit, if you have a cleric in the party, have him cast Recitation, drink a haste potion. Those will boost your to hit by another 5. So with +28 to hit, you should be fine. Make sure you get yourself a +3 cold iron weapon, +3 frost cold iron weapon is even better.

MrWizard
01-01-2010, 11:15 AM
Dude, settle down. Garzul's Bane drops in Invaders fairly frequently.

and it is a 12th level quest...he is talking about 8th and 9th level dungeons in threnal.....

doubt a new character would have that kind of access to what he would term elite gear..much less the AC to go tow to toe with renders two hand fighting.

Talish
01-01-2010, 11:32 AM
+4 stat items drop in the giant's caves which are part of the threnal pack. Many old timers may have forgotten but those caves are excellent loot runs, a very good way to make extra money and score better equipment. Also they can be run fast.

If you want to get your characters better prepared run those three quests in the explorer area until ransacked, Don't simply discount them as useless quests. Heck I've even pulled +1 tomes out of those quests on hard and +4 stat items. Elemental weapons drop there as well.

Each quest has a chest in it and for your level the loot is not bad. At worst you will get lots of items to sell to increase your plat fund. Running each to ransack would give you 30 chests per week. That's a lot of pulls and equipment.

The Threnal chain is a very good one but does need preparation. The 3 giants caves will help you with that preparation and allow you to also equip new characters you may make later on.

Ybbald
01-01-2010, 11:56 AM
My lvl 4 ranger has a much to hit as you do
I've got +16 with my ram's might

Xyfiel
01-01-2010, 12:36 PM
Due to Dungeon Alert being messed up in the actual library area, you will get alert when running in there. In part 2, you must draw the Reaver away from the middle of the room to the door. This will only activate green alert. You can use ranged or spells to get his attention. Regardless of alert, killing him before he has a chance to kill Coyle is the key to success. You can start ranging at him to get aggro and move him once you are in the corridor. Then go in with everything you got.

I have soloed both of these recently, but I knew how to overcome the Alert with tactical play and twinked gear. Also try max/emp searing light, niacs, frost lance, cone of cold, and holy smite.

Shade
01-01-2010, 12:41 PM
Don't know what that spesific weapon gives, but I surely don't have half a million gold on Cannith when my highest level character just made level 11...

Normally I can get
+3 weapon
+5 str (17 base, +3 item. 28pt build with no tomes)
+1 ram's might
+1 insight item
+2 anger's
+9 BAB
-2 TWF (although might be necessary to drop that in this fight =)

so +18 is the normal attack bonus. Add to that the situational

+1 rage (spell, from item)
+2 from attack boost (yeh getting desperate now)
drop second weapon

So at the highest it is at +23 (level 11). We were lacking an arcane caster so no those bonuses. I am afraid though, that standard casual PUGger is closer to the +15 mentioned.
The weapon in question is simply the best one for this situation, and an extremely common item on all of the older servers that a new player could get either by getting lucky to find one, or simply asking an older player to loan them one. I can understand it's difficult to get on cannith, but it is just for example, as it's not nessasry to use a weapon to get thru his DR, as it's only 10 points. A plain +5 weapon would work fine.
Everything listed in my breakdown above is and infact has been attained by numerous new players, as many people who used my build have told me so.

So your fears are misguided. I've done this quest over a hundred times and 95% of those in pugs, I've never seen anyone have trouble hitting the enemies there on normal. I guess it's just more of a matter of preperation. Personally I always have either an arcane or bard in the party or carrying a good stack of heroism and rage potions for longer quest chains like this, not because it's required but because it makes it much faster and easier. I look at all my party members buffs also and give them heroism potions if they don't have it themself, buffs are very important.
Regardless if you can't find an arcane or bard, potions suffice and are cheap enough that you can afford them.

I'm not trying to say your a bad player or anything like that, Just trying to help and understand why your having problems that I don't see other players having.
After seing your numbers listed I do see several major issues with your build and equipment that I can't see how anyone could justify.
A) Strength of 17.. This means you started with 15 base strength and put 2 points into it. This is a serious mistake for a multi classed ranger. You need to start at least 16, and 17 or 18 is highly recommended, even on a 28 point build.
B) +3 str item.. +4 is very easy to get from Deleras, tho it wouldn't help you in this case.. Just noting this incase you didn't know.
C) 9 BAB at lvl11.. I think your just mistaken there. 9 Ranger/2 rogue = 10 BAB.
D) Lack of any racial attack bonuses. Generally TWF rangers go either Dwarf or Elf to help negate the attack penalty by getting Axe/Rapier/Scimitar bonuses.
E) 100% complete lack of buffs and potions. The game is balanced around making use of buffs, thats why they exist. You should expect to have trouble to hit things if you never use rage or heroism potions.
Using TWF, with a +3 weapon?:
Just because your a ranger doesn't mean you should always use TWF. It is not some kind of explicit must have awesome be all ability.. In this case it's a large detriment for a couple reasons:
- Your missing your target
- Your not getting thru the targets DR
You'd kill him much easier with a plain old +5 greataxe, as it's high base damage would get thru the DR and take him down fast. With one your attack bonuses even with your low strength would be sufficient.

Bottom line is your failed the quest because you didn't have proper equipment and zerged ahead with no plan and no buffs and no chance - then imedately tried to put the blame on Turbine rather then trying to learn from your mistakes.

Bring the right equipment, get the right buffs (in this case heroism/greater, rage, rams might and fire resistance) and you will do fine. It's not that difficult of a quest.

East3 can be a difficult quest - you will be needing allot more to put a good contribution into that one.. But part 2.. No... Even your average multiclassed ranger can do fine.

7-day_Trial_Monkey
01-01-2010, 02:22 PM
I solod part 2 on a rogue 4/wiz 7 char. It's not that hard at all.

Angelus_dead
01-01-2010, 02:41 PM
Due to Dungeon Alert being messed up in the actual library area, you will get alert when running in there.
That's an important point. Red Alert gives bosses an AC bonus of well over +20.

voidholder
01-01-2010, 03:14 PM
I'm beginning to think I looked at the numbers wrong, since even unbuffed I have +18/19 to hit it couldn't have been as low as +15. I certainly did not use weapons I was not proficient with, and I do have spring attack so it wasn't a moving penalty. I think it was the dungeon alert that made the AC too high. I should edit the first post to shift more blame to DA itself instead of the too difficult mob. It showed 19 (+34) in the combat log, and I thought it was 34 total, when instead the + to hit might have been 34 with cleric buffs? Would that be logical to assume and could DA still make me miss? If so that is more broken than I thought it was...


I'm not trying to say your a bad player or anything like that, Just trying to help and understand why your having problems that I don't see other players having.
After seing your numbers listed I do see several major issues with your build and equipment that I can't see how anyone could justify.
A) Strength of 17.. This means you started with 15 base strength and put 2 points into it. This is a serious mistake for a multi classed ranger. You need to start at least 16, and 17 or 18 is highly recommended, even on a 28 point build.
...

E) 100% complete lack of buffs and potions. The game is balanced around making use of buffs, thats why they exist. You should expect to have trouble to hit things if you never use rage or heroism potions.
Using TWF, with a +3 weapon?:

I think it is DA that is to blame here and not my build, but I will defend it anyway just so you see that it's not me messing up my char that is causing me have troubles with this adventure.

So i could have two points more strenght now if I'd started with wis 8 and gotten my hands on a +4 strenght item. In which case I would have required also a wis +3 item to even be able to cast, and have one or more points less in my weak spot score than I do now. How come that trade-off is not justified by anyone? Everyone doesn't have tomes, you know?

I'm ranger 6 rogue 5 as the signature reads. =9 bab.
I don't want to play dwarf or elf, and I trust I'm not making a fatal mistake in being able to compete in the game because I draw the min/maxing line somewhere. Difference can't be that huge. And as human I have the skill point and feat more than I'd have otherwise.

I had rage, attack boost and a dozen buffs on me, but I don't have stack of haste potions or such. This was the _first_ target I thought I missed too much so I was not prepared with a two-handed weapon. I noticed now that I should carry a +5 weapon if such a thing happens again.


Bottom line is your failed the quest because you didn't have proper equipment and zerged ahead with no plan and no buffs and no chance - then imedately tried to put the blame on Turbine rather then trying to learn from your mistakes.


Ok I might have caused your misunderstanding by stating my "to hit" wrong, but this is still too rich. I don't zerg and I use whatever clickies and buffs I happen to have, and we were fully cleric buffed but lacked an arcane.
As I said before, I don't complain that is was too hard, I complain that the looong quest is really easy to totally fail by losing the NPC, and the need to re-run it means death for many pugs, which in turn causes the whole long chain to be very hard to finish.

And I said _I don't recommend Threnal Ruins to casual players_ and I stand behind that statement, even though people are trying to explain it must be me who is performing worse than a casual player normally. I don't mind getting advice, but I don't like people calling my build a gimp because I have one less point in strenght than I could have by sacrificing something else.

CrimsonEagle
01-01-2010, 04:46 PM
+4 stat items drop in the giant's caves which are part of the threnal pack. Many old timers may have forgotten but those caves are excellent loot runs, a very good way to make extra money and score better equipment. Also they can be run fast.

If you want to get your characters better prepared run those three quests in the explorer area until ransacked, Don't simply discount them as useless quests. Heck I've even pulled +1 tomes out of those quests on hard and +4 stat items. Elemental weapons drop there as well.

Each quest has a chest in it and for your level the loot is not bad. At worst you will get lots of items to sell to increase your plat fund. Running each to ransack would give you 30 chests per week. That's a lot of pulls and equipment.

The Threnal chain is a very good one but does need preparation. The 3 giants caves will help you with that preparation and allow you to also equip new characters you may make later on.

I think that this is very important, and something that most of the new players do not do. Run quests over and over again simply for the loot.

Loot runs were a very important part for those of us who have been here for awhile. I mean think about all of the time we would sit at whatever the current cap was. What else was there for us to do to keep us occupied? Not much other than loot runs praying for something that was worthwhile.

Yes, we wanted to do straight up loot runs for nothing more than loot, ransacking the giant caves or fbtg, or any other number of quests that were designated as loot runs, but also we really had no choice......there was nowhere else to go.

Can almost look at this as a sort of lost art....at least until the shroud.

The thing is, those loot runs helped us out tremendously though at the time we may not have realized it. Now however I think most of the new people are thinking to themselves...."why run this quest over and over again.....must get to shroud...thats where the good stuff is."

I could be off base on this, but I really dont see very many loot runs posted anymore other than the occasional Xorian for girds.

I know that in my case, I dont bother doing loot runs as I'm bringing up a new build. I already have some higher levels when I want to loot, so I just dont run the giants caves or fbtg anymore unless I am ransacked on my other characters. Just a guess, I would think most vets are in the same boat.

We are teaching them where the "best" loot is, thus they do not have to grind the way we did when there was nothing else to do.

Just some food for thought. I could be way off base.

voidholder
01-01-2010, 05:03 PM
Yes this is nice info for getting some benefit from those small quests in Threnal. They are a bit out of the way but quite easy to do, so I might see myself run those for a few times. At least while waiting a threnal group to fill up =)

Repeating quests is something many people try to avoid, and it works quite well until about Threnal levels. That might also be the cause of not doing such loot runs - people have so many options available that they want to see new places rather than grind the same.

But I think the increasing difficulty in the mid levels will introduce people to the grinding just in order to be able to reach 20.

clanqui
01-01-2010, 06:41 PM
Also remember that threnal itself has some fantastic loot for characters who aren't twinked. OP, on the one hand, I sympathize. It is a pain. OTOH, those of us who ran it at launch are all laughing at you. Because when we ran it there was no put him to sleep option, he wasn't buffable or healable, and several of the mobs were much tougher. You had to box him in with your melees and web the entire room.
And pray.

One of the things I really love about DDO though is that it makes failure a real possibility on some quests. And those tend to be my favorite quests. That a taste thing, there isn't a right or wrong. But luckily, there is enough content out there to cater to different tastes.

Zenako
01-01-2010, 06:51 PM
Also remember that threnal itself has some fantastic loot for characters who aren't twinked. OP, on the one hand, I sympathize. It is a pain. OTOH, those of us who ran it at launch are all laughing at you. Because when we ran it there was no put him to sleep option, he wasn't buffable or healable, and several of the mobs were much tougher. You had to box him in with your melees and web the entire room.
And pray.

One of the things I really love about DDO though is that it makes failure a real possibility on some quests. And those tend to be my favorite quests. That a taste thing, there isn't a right or wrong. But luckily, there is enough content out there to cater to different tastes.

AHHH, those were the days....when we had to push Coyle Uphill to school BOTH ways and the snow was deep, the wind was howling and the flensers never slept!!!:eek::eek:

When it was almost an EPIC undertaking to even consider attempting Threnal East 3 on ELITE. Even mentioning it was cause for panic on much of the server.

Of course, those were also the days when Raid failures were auto broadcast in general CHAT to the entire server to the chagrin of whomever got tossed the star in those failing seconds....:D:eek:

It was also in the days when a Threnal Weapon was about as good as you could get.

When "crafting" with the Smith at the end of Sovereign Host quest to get that +5 Adamantine Armor was about as good as it got too... Heavy Fort necklace, anyone who was anyone was sure to have that. (Still have one or two as keepsake momentos on some characters...)

When the Giant caves in threnal were a 60 second or so loot run for good stealth types, cause giants can't smash thru mushrooms!!

Cyr
01-01-2010, 07:01 PM
I endorse the basic statement made by the OP about not buying Threnal. Do not buy it until they fix DA and even then I would not recommend it to anyone but the hard core player who must run everything. There are just so many better packs out there.

captain1z
01-01-2010, 07:40 PM
I'm so frustrated with Threnal Ruins adventure pack now, I have to voice my opinion on it.

seriously, you guys dont know how good you have it. This quest chain in comparison to what it used to be is a cake walk. Used to be groups of slimes, rust monsters, spiders and earth elementals in the same fight and you would have to carry multiple weapons to run this because you knew your weapon wouldnt last 1-2 encounters.

As for Coyle, LOL, Coyle has gotten buffed by the devs several times over the years. It used to be he was like a 3rd level npc and would run off and attack everything and you "Could Not" heal him at all. You couldnt heal him, you couldnt buff him and he maybe had 50-100 hp's.

We used to split the party in half, body block Coyle anywhere we could stop him and have the other half of the party serve as perimeter gaurds and if a mephit, rust monster or PK hound got past them .....Coyle was dead.

Then we got the ability to heal him, then the devs buffed his Hp's and tweaked his AI a bit. What we have today is a quest with fewer monsters, more bats and a Coyle that if you fight along side him (and dont let him solo the quest) wont die.

There was a time where if u asked someone to run threnal they would give u the virtual finger and walk away.

Mazeratti
01-01-2010, 07:49 PM
So youve met Coyle, THrenal's resident pain in the @$$

He has been the bane of many a past party expedition into Threnal... this quest has been made MUCH easier, it takes time and a group of ppl that work well together as already mentioned to succeed, for that reason it is a good test of party skills.

A part I like about Threnal is the Giant Caves... gr8 quick mid level loot runs.

The explorer area could be added to in the future, that wouldnt hurt and a few more walk up quests, but as is it is still has its merits.

Arculea
01-01-2010, 08:01 PM
I agree,
it is a difficult quest...
our group did it 3days ago with 3 players and 3 hirelings and repeatedly failed it
(because we didn´t find other people who had the Threnal AP).
Then we recruited a human fighter and bought him a guest pass
and accomplished the mission successfully.

I think one of the secret lies within the number of people who have the necessary weapons to defeat the Iron golems (adamantine) and the rust monsters (well, everbright, muckbane, wood or just people who don´t care about the health of their weapons :D )
Our problem was, that only I, a "weak bard" had an adamantine weapon (even the fighter that later joined didn´t have any [and didn´t find an affordable adamantine weapon in AH]) and of course the fact that hirelings don´t act as intelligent as human players.

But well,
with good teamwork and equipment it is solvable and I am sure with 6 human players (2 of them fighters who have adamantine and rust resistant weapons) the quest would have been absolutely no problem.

And considering the XP and loot/rewards we got in Threnal I think buying it wasn´t a mistake ;)