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merk999
12-30-2009, 12:54 AM
I created a paladin with only 10 charisma - is that play-able or should i start over? i dont suppose there's a way to redo stats without starting over?

Uska
12-30-2009, 12:58 AM
At this time you cant redo stats without starting over but all isnt lost you can get tomes to increase your cha paladins also have enhancements and there are items you could use your lvl increases(I wouldnt do that) the one PrE class requires a high base cha but the other two dont you hve hurt yourself minorly but with a +2 tome or better the enhanments and a +6 item you could still have a decent cha.

eonfreon
12-30-2009, 01:07 AM
I created a paladin with only 10 charisma - is that play-able or should i start over? i dont suppose there's a way to redo stats without starting over?

Well it's kind of playable, but it'll certainly hurt. If a min/maxer catches a whiff of your scores somehow (like MyDDO) they are very likely to discriminate against you. They'll likely consider you a detriment to their group, for the most part.

Rerolling will probably be the better option, but that all depends on you.
How far have you leveled the character?

Depending on how far you are into this character (hopefully not too far) it might be better then waiting for the option to redo stats that a lesser/greater reincarnation will (supposedly, eventually, and is very bugged currently) allow.

Another option is to shelve this guy and roll another one. Maybe the respec option will come about before you finish bringing the other guy up to this one's level.

My recommendation if you don't got too much time and bound equipment invested in this guy then reroll.

You don't necessarily have to delete him, depending on how many characters you play. He could be a bank mule even and hope for the ability to change his stats to come soon. A lot of power comes from a Paladin's Charisma and you're perpetually a minimum of -4 to -6 stat points from most Paladin's starting Cha, which translates to being basically eternally -2 to -3 (even -4) to what most endgame Paladin's try to achieve.

Demoyn
12-30-2009, 01:11 AM
If a min/maxer catches a whiff of your scores somehow (like MyDDO) they are very likely to discriminate against you. They'll likely consider you a detriment to their group, for the most part.


Not at all. Us min/maxers start with a MAXIMUM of 14 charisma on a paladin.

eonfreon
12-30-2009, 01:19 AM
Not at all. Us min/maxers start with a MAXIMUM of 14 charisma on a paladin.

HUh, always thought that was the pre-Divine Might enhancements min/max scores.

Personally, 14 is what my main character who's a Paladin started with, but I might have changed it if I had known about the future addition of Divine Might requirements.
So, Demoyn, do you recommend he just keep going and wait for reincarnation/respec or reroll?

Demoyn
12-30-2009, 01:29 AM
I recommend that you just keep going. I personally started with 14 on my paladin, but not having level 3 of divine might is really only 2 damage per swing. There are much more important things than that anyway.

eonfreon
12-30-2009, 01:39 AM
I recommend that you just keep going. I personally started with 14 on my paladin, but not having level 3 of divine might is really only 2 damage per swing. There are much more important things than that anyway.

But a starting 10 Cha won't be able to qualify for any DM until he gets a +4 Tome, unless I'm so tired I'm getting the numbers mixed up.

Isn't the Base thresholds for DM:

Dm1 - Cha 14 + 2 dmg
Dm 2- Cha 16 +4 dmg
Dm 3- Cha 18 + 6 dmg
Dm 4 - Cha 20 + 8 dmg

I trust your opinion, I'm just asking for clarity's sake.

Aranticus
12-30-2009, 01:41 AM
an increase in 2 str brings more dividends than 2 in cha. drows are excluded

mechgouki
12-30-2009, 01:55 AM
For me, I'm a Drow Paladin Dex build. Str is not as worth as Cha to me.

merk999
12-30-2009, 02:03 AM
Thanks for all the advice from everyone.

Right now he's level 3 so not that far in - but i dont feel like re-rolling if i can help it. I picked up a +1 char tome and I have a +1char cloak so I'm at char 12 right now. I can also spend 2ap to get the +1char enhancement. And later on if i want i can get the +2tome.

question on the tomes - does the +1tome and +2tome stack? The item description wasn't entirely clear - made it sound like a +2tome char just wont stack with the +2 tome allstats. If the +1char and +2char tomes stack, that wouldn't be so bad.

My str is at 18 - and so far that's working fairly well with a greatsword or axe.

Uska
12-30-2009, 02:05 AM
Thanks for all the advice from everyone.

Right now he's level 3 so not that far in - but i dont feel like re-rolling if i can help it. I picked up a +1 char tome and I have a +1char cloak so I'm at char 12 right now. I can also spend 2ap to get the +1char enhancement. And later on if i want i can get the +2tome.

question on the tomes - does the +1tome and +2tome stack? The item description wasn't entirely clear - made it sound like a +2tome char just wont stack with the +2 tome allstats. If the +1char and +2char tomes stack, that wouldn't be so bad.

My str is at 18 - and so far that's working fairly well with a greatsword or axe.

Sorry tomes dont stack you only get highest plus.

KillEveryone
12-30-2009, 02:48 AM
I can also spend 2ap to get the +1char enhancement.

I a bit curious about this part.

Would the enhancement from AP work to be able to get DM?

I'm wondering if it is like trying to get TWF and dex enhancements where you cannot use the AP to qualify to allow you to be able to take the TWF feat.

eonfreon
12-30-2009, 02:57 AM
I a bit curious about this part.

Would the enhancement from AP work to be able to get DM?

I'm wondering if it is like trying to get TWF and dex enhancements where you cannot use the AP to qualify to allow you to be able to take the TWF feat.

No, enhancements in Cha don't count towards DM thresholds, just like Dex enhancements don't count towards TWF feats.

Like TWF Feats, your score has to reach the prerequisite values by counting base (start score) + Level ups (every 4 levels can raise one attribute 1 point) + Inherent (tomes).

sephiroth1084
12-30-2009, 03:31 AM
I'd recommend rerolling.

With the low Cha you miss out on Divine Might entirely (barring stat points at levels and big tomes). You don't benefit as much from Divine Grace, Lay On Hands or Smite Evil. You miss out on the possibility of having a very workable UMD and/or Intimidate score (still doable, but much more difficult). And you gain very little in return.

mechgouki
12-30-2009, 04:22 AM
Personally, I say a low charisma Paladin is very much inferior to a Fighter of the same stats.

Charisma is the important defense stat, you need that for high saves, Lay On Hands, etc. Divine Might is not so important, but may make up for a lack of Strength.

Without any of these qualities, you are much better off using a Fighter.

The problem, from my point of view, is that almost all of the 6 ability stats are of use to the Paladin. Str, Dex, Con, these are all beneficial. And Wisdom is required too for casting spells. Int if you need Combat Expertise. With all these in mind, it is very hard to spread the stats out. It is not like a sorcerer, where you focus only on one Cha stat, and some Con.

eonfreon
12-30-2009, 04:46 AM
Personally, I say a low charisma Paladin is very much inferior to a Fighter of the same stats.

Charisma is the important defense stat, you need that for high saves, Lay On Hands, etc. Divine Might is not so important, but may make up for a lack of Strength.

Without any of these qualities, you are much better off using a Fighter.

The problem, from my point of view, is that almost all of the 6 ability stats are of use to the Paladin. Str, Dex, Con, these are all beneficial. And Wisdom is required too for casting spells. Int if you need Combat Expertise. With all these in mind, it is very hard to spread the stats out. It is not like a sorcerer, where you focus only on one Cha stat, and some Con.

While I do for the most part agree, look at it this way. Player who starts with a 10 Base Cha vs one who starts with a 14 Wis vs someone who starts with a 16 Wis.

Now initially a 10 Stat nets you zero benefit (+0) to all multiplicative Cha bonuses. However, all things being equal and assuming equal opportunities for increasing stats that 10 Base will quickly move up, with Enhancements, Items, and eventually Tomes and Raid gear, to higher values which will be relevant.

So, the 10 base vs 14 base wll be -2 to saves, 10 base vs 16 base will be - 3 to saves.
I really don't remember the rest of the number crunching, but I started with a 14 Cha, now I'm at 24 Cha. I really noticed little difference when I went from 22 to 24. An extra +2 to my smite to-hit I think. +1 more to very high saves. ithink I'm at generally 38 Fort, 36 Reflex, 32 Will. I could survive easily with 1 or 2 less saves.

Higher str is something that is "always on" it requires no twitch clicking like most other Pally abilities. Higher str is pretty much a "passive" ability and useful on every single blow.

However, now that I know the OP is only lvl 3 I really highly recommend rerolling. I'll jump over to the Pally forums and find the stats for a decent stat distribution, I'm too tired to do it myself right now.

However, for a first Paladin, not having 32 pt, I do recommend Drow if possible.
Just my opinion. You'll have to bear with me on the stats unless someone else wants to chime in, cuz I'm about to hit the hay, but I'm sure I'll prolly have a moment tomorrow to check in and see if anything advice has panned out.

spyderwolf
12-30-2009, 04:56 AM
look at it like this. 2 points of str is 1 damage. so you can go from 18 str down to 16 str,and bump cha to 14 and have 2 build points left over for something else, possibly cha 15 so a +3 tome will qualify ya for dm 3.

every 2 points of cha beyond 14 base is 2 damage. by dropping 2 str you lose 1 damage but gain 6 damage from dm 3. thats why cha 10 would hurt you.


ir your pure you should build for dm 3-4
if your an 18-2 split you should build for dm 3.
otherwise you should just be a fighter cause you will be hindering alot of your paladins potential.

sephiroth1084
12-30-2009, 04:56 AM
Personally, I say a low charisma Paladin is very much inferior to a Fighter of the same stats.

Charisma is the important defense stat, you need that for high saves, Lay On Hands, etc. Divine Might is not so important, but may make up for a lack of Strength.

Without any of these qualities, you are much better off using a Fighter.

The problem, from my point of view, is that almost all of the 6 ability stats are of use to the Paladin. Str, Dex, Con, these are all beneficial. And Wisdom is required too for casting spells. Int if you need Combat Expertise. With all these in mind, it is very hard to spread the stats out. It is not like a sorcerer, where you focus only on one Cha stat, and some Con.
Paladins don't need Wis--they need Wis items and tomes (only early). Starting with an 8 Wis is advisable.

Hadrian
12-30-2009, 05:49 AM
I would reroll. You're missing out on too much of what makes a paladin worth rolling over a different type of melee.

Aranticus
12-30-2009, 06:05 AM
OP i think you problem is you want to do too much. pallys are already a very stat starved class. by going dex based is going to hurt more

Noctus
12-30-2009, 09:05 AM
Still playable with CHA10. - But you will be forever less than you could have been, if you had started with a 14 CHA.

If that irkes you, reroll. If you just want to get to know the game you can go on. About 95% of all 1st time character are rerolled sooner or later. Either because of build erroes (like here) or because players want to tailor their characters to their playstyle, after they made enough questing experiences.

sephiroth1084
12-30-2009, 09:18 AM
Still playable with CHA10. - But you will be forever less than you could have been, if you had started with a 14 CHA.

If that irkes you, reroll. If you just want to get to know the game you can go on. About 95% of all 1st time character are rerolled sooner or later. Either because of build erroes (like here) or because players want to tailor their characters to their playstyle, after they made enough questing experiences.

I agree with Noctus.

At level 3, it's still early enough to reroll without it hurting too much, but if you want to press on further to see how you play, and then reroll later, that's not a terrible idea, as you'll have a better sense of what you could do with this build and what you want to do.

Varr
12-30-2009, 09:27 AM
Reroll Drow to: (IMO)

16 16 12 10 8 16 for two weapon fighter

16 12 12 10 8 18 for two handed fighter

15 16 12 12 8 16 for sword/board ac attemp

Demoyn
12-30-2009, 11:37 AM
But a starting 10 Cha won't be able to qualify for any DM until he gets a +4 Tome, unless I'm so tired I'm getting the numbers mixed up.

Isn't the Base thresholds for DM:

Dm1 - Cha 14 + 2 dmg
Dm 2- Cha 16 +4 dmg
Dm 3- Cha 18 + 6 dmg
Dm 4 - Cha 20 + 8 dmg

I trust your opinion, I'm just asking for clarity's sake.

I made a mental leap and didn't mention it. I said that paladins start with a MAXIMUM of 14, but most can only afford 12. He can still get up to DM 3 with a +4 tome (theoretically), so he's only losing 2 damage over what he'd have if he started with the average charisma.

Realistically many paladin builds don't even pick up divine might because it's not quite as useful as it looks at first glance. The paladin is already a class that requires a lot of attention. You've got to make sure to keep up divine favor every few minutes, as well as keep up your smite evil progressions, divine sacrifice progressions, and... oh yeah... not die! That's a lot to keep up with, and as such DM will spend a good amount of time turned off in many fights anyway.

Also, I don't actually have DM on my paladin yet, so I'm not positive if it has an attack break in it like all the other short-term attack buffs do (like fighter haste boost). If it does (and I'd imagine it does), then that would make another dent in the end result of its effectiveness.

merk999
12-30-2009, 04:22 PM
does anyone ever get a unanimous answer to a question on here? :)

i spent $5 to buy a +1 char tome. maybe ill buy drow and try that instead. or maybe i'll just stick with something simple and use my sorc :)

i'll check out the drow option when i get home. i'd consider the 32 point build option but for some reason that feels like cheating to me.

sephiroth1084
12-30-2009, 09:56 PM
does anyone ever get a unanimous answer to a question on here? :)

i spent $5 to buy a +1 char tome. maybe ill buy drow and try that instead. or maybe i'll just stick with something simple and use my sorc :)

i'll check out the drow option when i get home. i'd consider the 32 point build option but for some reason that feels like cheating to me.

Don't buy drow, do some favor running until you get 400 favor and unlock it--not long or hard, and that is free. :)

merk999
12-30-2009, 11:53 PM
I think i'd rather buy it - unless I plan on keeping more then 1 character. Doesn't make sense to me to spend the time working on one character just so i can replace it with another character later on.

For now i think i'll switch over to my sorc (also lvl 3) since i think i at least managed not to screw that one up :)

Demoyn
12-31-2009, 12:26 AM
I think i'd rather buy it - unless I plan on keeping more then 1 character. Doesn't make sense to me to spend the time working on one character just so i can replace it with another character later on.


Don't spend money on drow. They really, REALLY suck for almost everything you could want to do.

merk999
12-31-2009, 12:55 AM
My friend just said that about the drow as well - Why are they so bad? With their bonus to int wis and char they seem like an ideal magic class. He suggested warforged but they seem even worse since they have a minus to wisdom and char. Being able to heal myself with a spell is nice - but i can do that already with potions.

ProdigalGuru
12-31-2009, 01:11 AM
Drow get bonuses to DEX, CHA, and INT.

They do not suck.

Play the character you are having fun with.

That being said, my Drow Pally started with a 20 CHA, and people tell me I screwed her up.

I disagree.

My saves are through the roof, I qualify for DM IV, I have a massive LoH, my Smites always seem to hit, I have decent UMD and Intim......

Minor_Threat
12-31-2009, 01:26 AM
Drow get bonuses to DEX, CHA, and INT.

They do not suck.

Play the character you are having fun with.

That being said, my Drow Pally started with a 20 CHA, and people tell me I screwed her up.

I disagree.

My saves are through the roof, I qualify for DM IV, I have a massive LoH, my Smites always seem to hit, I have decent UMD and Intim......

Your LOH probably heals for more than you have HP, in that lies the problem.

ProdigalGuru
12-31-2009, 01:33 AM
Your LOH probably heals for more than you have HP, in that lies the problem.

Not even close.

There is no problem.

Hadrian
12-31-2009, 05:29 AM
That being said, my Drow Pally started with a 20 CHA, and people tell me I screwed her up.

I disagree.

My saves are through the roof, I qualify for DM IV, I have a massive LoH, my Smites always seem to hit, I have decent UMD and Intim......

While it doesn't make a build unplayable, the reason people advise against this is for optimization.

Think about the difference between 18 and 20 starting charisma. You'll need a +2 tome for DM 4, and your charisma modifier would be one less.

You'd still always hit on your smites, and they'd still do great damage and so on. You'd have 1 less to all saves, but still plenty. True, a +2 tome may seem expensive to a new player, but it should be a goal on your important stats and you get a free one at 1750 favor. In return, you have 6 build points to spread around to weaker areas.

It makes good logical sense, but you're certainly not forced to build that way.

Demoyn
12-31-2009, 10:16 AM
My friend just said that about the drow as well - Why are they so bad? With their bonus to int wis and char they seem like an ideal magic class. He suggested warforged but they seem even worse since they have a minus to wisdom and char. Being able to heal myself with a spell is nice - but i can do that already with potions.

Drow can make good sorcerers and wizards, but humans are just as good and warforged are better. In every other class, though (even paladin and ranger), they are completely inferior.

They SEEM like a 32 point build, but they're not. The way their stats are spread it's extremely rare that one of those stats wouldn't be a dump stat on your character. Those are valuable points that could have been spent elsewhere.

Drow have negative 2 constitution. While this is something you can often work around (usually by spending more build points on constitution), it's not something that most 28 point builds want to have to do. When it all comes down to it, hit points are probably the second most important thing in the game (after DPS).

The ability of a warforged caster to heal itself is glorious. I'm sure you think that you can heal yourself with potions, but once things start hitting you for 200-300 damage a hit you'll probably change your mind. You just can't drink potions fast enough to survive.

Demoyn
12-31-2009, 10:17 AM
Not even close.

There is no problem.

Oh yeah? What are your strength and constitution scores?

EddieB_TBC
12-31-2009, 10:27 AM
Do people normally put all the +1 attrib points into CHR when leveling up?
If not can he use that to bring his CHR in line eventually?

(sry for what may seem like an obvious question but I only have 2 toons w/PAL splash so don't really know how to build a really good PAL toon)

Demoyn
12-31-2009, 10:31 AM
Do people normally put all the +1 attrib points into CHR when leveling up?
If not can he use that to bring his CHR in line eventually?

(sry for what may seem like an obvious question but I only have 2 toons w/PAL splash so don't really know how to build a really good PAL toon)

Paladins are DPS characters (at least the ones worth mentioning are). As such they'll want to put all level-up points into strength. Strength is much more valuable than divine might.

EddieB_TBC
12-31-2009, 10:44 AM
Paladins are DPS characters (at least the ones worth mentioning are). As such they'll want to put all level-up points into strength. Strength is much more valuable than divine might.
yeah I would have guessed at that without really knowing, and I thought I read in the thread he started with an 18 STR which is what got me thinking to ask the above question about putting the level up points in CHR. Also considering the 18 STR chewed up a lot of his points when building... ah... I guess I would fall into the re-roll recomendation just because having built sub-par toons an re-rolled them at lvl 10 because I wasn't happy with them, I wish someone back then had just told me to re-roll at lvl 3 when I only had a couple hours into the toon.

Demoyn
12-31-2009, 11:23 AM
yeah I would have guessed at that without really knowing, and I thought I read in the thread he started with an 18 STR which is what got me thinking to ask the above question about putting the level up points in CHR. Also considering the 18 STR chewed up a lot of his points when building... ah... I guess I would fall into the re-roll recomendation just because having built sub-par toons an re-rolled them at lvl 10 because I wasn't happy with them, I wish someone back then had just told me to re-roll at lvl 3 when I only had a couple hours into the toon.

Starting the build with 18 strength was the best thing he could have done, though. Strength is much more important than charisma, even on a paladin.

Hadrian
12-31-2009, 12:49 PM
Starting the build with 18 strength was the best thing he could have done, though. Strength is much more important than charisma, even on a paladin.

Yes, but not at 3 attribute points per strength point when he could be getting 1 for 1 with CHA.

merk999
12-31-2009, 04:11 PM
I'm trying a favored soul right now. although I think i screwed this one up by not putting enough points into str - only 15 str now. I was planning on using a +1tome to bump it to 16 if i keep the toon. I can really notice a difference between him and the paly with 18 str.

i was going to say it's a shame the +2 tomes cant be used until lvl 7 but then again if i keep re-rolling, that would be a lot of wasted turbine points :)

Demoyn
12-31-2009, 05:51 PM
Yes, but not at 3 attribute points per strength point when he could be getting 1 for 1 with CHA.

Yes, even then. There are a few situations where a 16 strength is acceptable because you're strapped for attribute points, but once you meet the "minimum" for a good DPS build everything else should go into strength (followed by constitution). There are some that would say the minimum charisma on a DPS paladin is 8 (I shoot for at least 10 myself for 28 point builds).

sephiroth1084
12-31-2009, 08:30 PM
Yes, even then. There are a few situations where a 16 strength is acceptable because you're strapped for attribute points, but once you meet the "minimum" for a good DPS build everything else should go into strength (followed by constitution). There are some that would say the minimum charisma on a DPS paladin is 8 (I shoot for at least 10 myself for 28 point builds).
That's foolish, and does not accurately reflect the changes made to the paladin in the last few mods.

When you're paying 2 or 3 points for 1 point of Str, which is netting you +1.5 DPS per 4 or 6 points, it really makes sense to start moving points into Cha where 4 points = 2 DPS, a better trade. It may not last for the duration of a quest, but I've found that, even with a 22 Cha (10 turns per rest) I rarely run out of DMs in anything but Epic DQ 1.

The difference between a starting 14 and starting 18 Str is somewhat negligible, but the difference between never qualifying for DM I (starting 8) and picking up DM IV is huge (an extra 2 to 3 damage vs. an extra 8 to 16).

Demoyn
12-31-2009, 10:13 PM
That's foolish, and does not accurately reflect the changes made to the paladin in the last few mods.

When you're paying 2 or 3 points for 1 point of Str, which is netting you +1.5 DPS per 4 or 6 points, it really makes sense to start moving points into Cha where 4 points = 2 DPS, a better trade. It may not last for the duration of a quest, but I've found that, even with a 22 Cha (10 turns per rest) I rarely run out of DMs in anything but Epic DQ 1.

The difference between a starting 14 and starting 18 Str is somewhat negligible, but the difference between never qualifying for DM I (starting 8) and picking up DM IV is huge (an extra 2 to 3 damage vs. an extra 8 to 16).

I'm reflecting the changes just fine. Strength doesn't only give you +1 to damage, but also an extra 5% chance to hit. Paladins don't get favored enemy attack bonuses like rangers, weapon focus feats/enhancements like fighters, or massive strength modifiers like barbarians. They actually need those bonuses to hit.

Go run a quest with Catechist. She'll show you what I'm talking about, since she's built almost exactly like Aelthir.

sephiroth1084
01-01-2010, 04:31 AM
I'm reflecting the changes just fine. Strength doesn't only give you +1 to damage, but also an extra 5% chance to hit. Paladins don't get favored enemy attack bonuses like rangers, weapon focus feats/enhancements like fighters, or massive strength modifiers like barbarians. They actually need those bonuses to hit.

Go run a quest with Catechist. She'll show you what I'm talking about, since she's built almost exactly like Aelthir.

Paladins get Divine Favor, which is worth 6 points of Str, or Weapon Focus and both the Greater and Superior versions, or all (or almost all) of Favored Attack. Hitting with a paladin isn't a problem. And the extra +2 on attacks doesn't stack up favorably against +8 damage per swing (which, by they way, is much better than Str if you're considering TWF).

I honestly can't say that I've ever had any trouble hitting anything late-game on my paladin outside of epic content, and seem to hit with about the same rate as everyone but a maxed out Barbarian in epic and early/mid levels.

Demoyn
01-01-2010, 11:29 AM
Paladins get Divine Favor, which is worth 6 points of Str, or Weapon Focus and both the Greater and Superior versions, or all (or almost all) of Favored Attack. Hitting with a paladin isn't a problem. And the extra +2 on attacks doesn't stack up favorably against +8 damage per swing (which, by they way, is much better than Str if you're considering TWF).

I honestly can't say that I've ever had any trouble hitting anything late-game on my paladin outside of epic content, and seem to hit with about the same rate as everyone but a maxed out Barbarian in epic and early/mid levels.

I might agree if getting 2 strength actually cost me 8 damage. It doesn't, though. On my paladin I started with an 18 strength and I'll still be getting DM III, which means it only cost me 2 damage (this is without 34 points, btw).

Hadrian
01-01-2010, 07:30 PM
Yes, even then. There are a few situations where a 16 strength is acceptable because you're strapped for attribute points, but once you meet the "minimum" for a good DPS build everything else should go into strength (followed by constitution). There are some that would say the minimum charisma on a DPS paladin is 8 (I shoot for at least 10 myself for 28 point builds).

Having one strength mod less than the maximum possible will not cause you to having trouble hitting things. Divine Favor gives the paladin +3 to hit, which is similar to the bonuses other classes get (except for barbarians who also need to counter their enhanced power attack penalties) so it's not true that they're the only class not to get such a bonus.

It's certainly easy to follow the logic as to why someone would prefer to spend 6 points at 1-to-1 in a different stat. If you have ideas about how you'd like your build to be, it doesn't invalidate any other ideas.