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jcoffey
12-27-2009, 07:17 AM
I have watched several Sorcs and Wizards,at level 14 getting normal hits of +100/per tick/per mob on Firewall and other spells. Crits of 1k + in Tempest Spine,no greensteel nothing special but mostly auction bought and end quest reward stuff.(these damage numbers are only going up for them as they level)

How can I, as a melee class, get these consistant high numbers at 13+? Is it even possable?

Yes I use the monsters weakness if possable but with fire and a blunt for example my melee does nowhere near the same damage.

The10man
12-27-2009, 07:35 AM
At low levels melees protect casters, at mid levels casters support melees, at high/epic levels casters tell melees to sit back and relax I got this.

Greensteel weapons + Rages x 4 + Bloodstone and other gear will get you close but casters are and should be better as they trade weak initial levels for the reward later rather than a constant climb from good to great.

You also have to understand this is a group game. Stop looking at the kill counts, as it is only the death blow that is recorded. (even if I do 9999 pts damage on a 10000 HP monster the person who gets that last HP gets the kill) Look rather at was this an easy run that I used little resources in, or a run that failed or was very costly.

And ultimately if you are worried about doing the most damage at upper levels buy a ALOT of pots and roll up a wizzy or sorc.

MrWizard
12-27-2009, 07:45 AM
a firewall does nothing if the mob is not in it.

a good intimidate on a mob while you stand in the firewall is priceless.

group attacks work.

sephiroth1084
12-27-2009, 07:57 AM
A firewall was a tick of damage ~every 2 seconds for around 100 damage. In that same 2 seconds you've probably swung your weapon more than 3 times. If you're hitting for more than 30 damage a swing, you're doing the same damage, albeit to only one target usually. If you're talking about vs. undead, or monsters that are vulnerable to fire, then you need to have more damage per swing, but that's doable, especially later on. Versus a crit firewall it'll be tough to compare, and vs. a crit firewall on undead (or especially against mummies) you won't come close. A Frenzied Berserker at high levels can be dealing around 80-100 damage per hit, non-crit, and upwards of 300 damage on crits (even in the 500 range), which is considerably more DPS than a firewall does.

Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter much--this game is not about who posts the highest kill count, but about completing quests by working together.

taurean430
12-27-2009, 08:13 AM
A firewall was a tick of damage ~every 2 seconds for around 100 damage. In that same 2 seconds you've probably swung your weapon more than 3 times. If you're hitting for more than 30 damage a swing, you're doing the same damage, albeit to only one target usually. If you're talking about vs. undead, or monsters that are vulnerable to fire, then you need to have more damage per swing, but that's doable, especially later on. Versus a crit firewall it'll be tough to compare, and vs. a crit firewall on undead (or especially against mummies) you won't come close. A Frenzied Berserker at high levels can be dealing around 80-100 damage per hit, non-crit, and upwards of 300 damage on crits (even in the 500 range), which is considerably more DPS than a firewall does.

Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter much--this game is not about who posts the highest kill count, but about completing quests by working together.

That's some solid advice right there, and worth repeating. The folks who obsess over kill count numbers will always give you a hard time. But it's a group effort all the way. Just because I placed that wall of fire well, hypnotized a few mobs before they were trouble and followed that up with a killing cone of cold - it means nothing compared to what a group working together can accomplish. Effectively, individual kill counts mean jack smack... everyone in the party did their part to ensure a speedy victory. It's sad how often I have to remind people of this in pugs when they swear they are going to reroll a wizard, and then complain about the squishy factor.

jcoffey
12-27-2009, 09:05 PM
So if a caster hangs in there until he has Displacement he will stand up better against mobs better than a non Tank.

Good to know thank you.

hydra_ex
12-27-2009, 09:40 PM
At low levels melees protect casters, at mid levels casters support melees, at high/epic levels casters tell melees to sit back and relax I got this.


Wrong. At higher levels, casters still support melees. If there are any arguments, go look at party makeup for most quests. (I'll do the work for you: 6 man - 4 melees, 1 cleric, and 1 bard or caster; 12 man - 8 melees, 1 caster, 1 bard, 2 clerics) In many 6 mans, you don't need a caster, thats how much less important they are than a melee, and in a raid, its still one.

What you say is true for pnp, not so much in DDO.

Maxwell1380
12-27-2009, 09:46 PM
Wrong. At higher levels, casters still support melees. If there are any arguments, go look at party makeup for most quests. (I'll do the work for you: 6 man - 4 melees, 1 cleric, and 1 bard or caster; 12 man - 8 melees, 1 caster, 1 bard, 2 clerics) In many 6 mans, you don't need a caster, thats how much less important they are than a melee, and in a raid, its still one.

What you say is true for pnp, not so much in DDO.

it's still one because they can handle the work load, not because they are insignificant

issiana
12-27-2009, 09:50 PM
Wrong. At higher levels, casters still support melees. If there are any arguments, go look at party makeup for most quests. (I'll do the work for you: 6 man - 4 melees, 1 cleric, and 1 bard or caster; 12 man - 8 melees, 1 caster, 1 bard, 2 clerics) In many 6 mans, you don't need a caster, thats how much less important they are than a melee, and in a raid, its still one.

What you say is true for pnp, not so much in DDO.

your kinda right and kinda wrong.

the shroud was a nasty place for casters aka those portals and was really the first "reality" check for us casters. prior to that it was always teh casters who dominated the "solo" achievments even in raids. but i think due to the outcry about casters as gods - quests came in that shifted the balance.

in PnP a high lvl caster was nigh on invincible, but in ddo that was changed by adding in blanket immunities on mobs and giving them zillions of hitpoints. this is why melee are seeing a high lvl comeback. as long as you have some protection (caster for buffs, cleric for heals) you can keep on swinging away

this is a good thing really as it promots the group game play again witha diverse party makeup. that said it is still possible to do any quest with any class - aka the all sorc shroud run :)

jcoffey
12-27-2009, 09:51 PM
Maybe they require less Casters at high levels because 1 great Caster can carry them.

Demon Queen for example,try tanking her.

I watch a Sorc solo the White Dragon easily.

I watch them solo the Giant and wait till they get charged then it becomes even easier.

Finger of Death and FW seem to be King on a lot of mobs PLUS Haste and buffs from casters.

Have you noticed most high level Raids want 2 casters,they even list it when LFM.

hydra_ex
12-27-2009, 09:55 PM
it's still one because they can handle the work load, not because they are insignificant

Exactly my point. I'm not saying they are insignificant (far from that.) I'm saying that they still play a support role to melees. Support is an essential role, but its far from the "Sit back and watch" attitude that permeates much of the mid-game. One caster is needed because doubling up on the support they give is not needed. I was just commenting on the deviance from pnp, where casters were invincible, and in DDO, where they fall back into a support role, which is contrary to the post to which I was responding said.

hydra_ex
12-27-2009, 09:59 PM
Maybe they require less Casters at high levels because 1 great Caster can carry them.

Demon Queen for example,try tanking her.

On epic, thats the way to do it.


I watch a Sorc solo the White Dragon easily.

I watch them solo the Giant and wait till they get charged then it becomes even easier.

Not endgame content


Finger of Death and FW seem to be King on a lot of mobs PLUS Haste and buffs from casters.

FoD looses its edge, and mobs becomes immune, or highly resist FW. Haste is a support role, as I mentioned.



Have you noticed most high level Raids want 2 casters,they even list it when LFM.

Some do, many of the high end players only want 1 (I'll take 2, but optimally, its 1; the exception is reaver, where I'll take as many casters as possible.)

To answer the original question, casters generally play a support role, and should only damage in certain, rarer, scenarios. The rest, they should be sniping with energy drain - FoD, or better yet (IMO,) using Crowd Control.

cardmj1
12-27-2009, 10:11 PM
snip**
To answer the original question, casters generally play a support role, and should only damage in certain, rarer, scenarios. The rest, they should be sniping with energy drain - FoD, or better yet (IMO,) using Crowd Control.

Crowd Control is the keyword. This is why wizards are still viable at end game. The versatilty they have in spell selection and swapping out one for another. Sorcs will always be viable for some crowd control and maintaining damage.

Maintaining damage can be supportive as in haste or damage as in a crit fire wall, a crit cone of cold or even a neg level to throw in. Especially if the mob is regenerating or self healing.

Like everyone has said, kill count is useless. It's a group tactic that completes a quest.

jcoffey
12-27-2009, 11:30 PM
How many people actually reach end game and do end game content?
5%?

I know people that are obcessed with DDO and even they haven't reached it.

And the people I am referring too are doing this damage at lvl 19,how much higher does it go? and then like I asked before how many people actually run it?

hydra_ex
12-27-2009, 11:49 PM
How many people actually reach end game and do end game content?
5%?

I know people that are obcessed with DDO and even they haven't reached it.

And the people I am referring too are doing this damage at lvl 19,how much higher does it go? and then like I asked before how many people actually run it?

About 100% of people I group with do endgame content. I don't know who gave you the impression that this was not an endgame focused game.

If a caster can do 1000 a tick, on a crit (about 500 DPS) then 2 melees should be able to deal way more than that much. One melee, completely geared out, can probably do it. (Note that FW does not stack).

And as I said before; as a melee, your DPS will be high enough that casters are support. Many small numbers often, is better than a few large numbers, every few seconds.

In addition, casters have resources, melees do not.

jcoffey
12-28-2009, 01:22 AM
I got the impression from lack of groups 13-14+ for melee classes like the Ranger for example.

When I check "show groups I am not eligable for" I rarely see any groups for the upper levels.

I figured that is probably from people joining Guilds and then the Guilds only run Guildies.
Besides the fact DDO is very redundant,no reason to run the Shroud 20 plus times for a upgrade imo.

I said what I did about casters because I see them soloing mobs AND instances groups barely do(and sometimes don't) and these casters don't even have any Green Steel items or Epic gear. They get Red Dungeon Alerts, np just keep going. They solo Orchard at level 14 EASILY,like i said no raid gear,reincarnations nada.

I asked another question in another forum about what is better 50ac(would DPS classes like the Ranger and others be able to achieve this AC on normal items like the casters?) or 50% miss chance and most of them went with miss chance so doesn't that nullify the Casters are squishy argument from Turbine?

I guess part of me is just upset with the unbalance of the classes. No class should be able to solo Reavers Raid and several others that easily.

I see videos of Casters doing this on Youtube and have seen several people I know Farm these easily and all the time. I can't play a caster class otherwise I guess I would do it too.

My bad on the 100+ per tick,I was watching 2 people today I know getting 200-400 on a tick average/per mob on non undead,it would drive a Banker insane from all those high numbers.

Okies Ill stop ranting now.

Arlith
12-28-2009, 02:04 AM
Wrong. At higher levels, casters still support melees. If there are any arguments, go look at party makeup for most quests. (I'll do the work for you: 6 man - 4 melees, 1 cleric, and 1 bard or caster; 12 man - 8 melees, 1 caster, 1 bard, 2 clerics) In many 6 mans, you don't need a caster, thats how much less important they are than a melee, and in a raid, its still one.

The game is about working together. In a group that works well together 90% of the time party makeup is irrelevant. 9% requires certain abilites (notice I said abilities, not classes) to perform certain actions. The last 1% is new enough that players are still figuring it out. But it's time will come.

Get over the "Caster does this" or "Melee does that". It doesn't matter if your caster does 1000+ damage on a firewall if they don't understand how to use it properly. It doesn't matter if your tank can do 1000+ damage if they don't understand how to use it properly.

Given a choice between a 1000+ damage per tick firewall caster who thinks he is a god and throws them around without thnking and a 500+ damage per tick firewall caster who thinks about what he is doing before he does it, I will take 500 over a 1000 any day of the week, twice on sunday. Same thing with melee. Nothing worse than idiots (be they ranged, melee, caster or any combination thereof) who consistently grab aggro when they are not supposed to.

As for the OP, if you want your mega firewalls, max out your enhancements for fire/cold. Then shop around for fire lore/combustion items (could use a potency item instead of combustion). But don't think every firewall is going to give you mega numbers. Just think when you use it. A caster with a brain is better than a caster with a 1000+ point firewall epeen.

BurningDownTheHouse
12-28-2009, 03:09 AM
I guess part of me is just upset with the unbalance of the classes. No class should be able to solo Reavers Raid and several others that easily.

I see videos of Casters doing this on Youtube and have seen several people I know Farm these easily and all the time. I can't play a caster class otherwise I guess I would do it too.


The main reason casters are good soloers is that they have easier access to self healing abilities.
A wf wizard or sorcerer and a cleric of any race can both reliably self heal and deal damage, meaning that they basically cover the two most needed aspects of adventuring. Any high dps melee that has acccess to silverflame healing potions (and makes sure to have more than 10 in each stat :D) can perform just as well (solowise, that is).

Angelus_dead
12-28-2009, 03:31 AM
I have watched several Sorcs and Wizards,at level 14 getting normal hits of +100/per tick/per mob on Firewall and other spells.
Be advised that you can hit with weapons many times in the space of one Firewall tick. Don't think you need to see 100+ from each attack to beat the caster's DPS.

bobbryan2
12-28-2009, 03:56 AM
I got the impression from lack of groups 13-14+ for melee classes like the Ranger for example.

When I check "show groups I am not eligable for" I rarely see any groups for the upper levels.

I figured that is probably from people joining Guilds and then the Guilds only run Guildies.
Besides the fact DDO is very redundant,no reason to run the Shroud 20 plus times for a upgrade imo.

I said what I did about casters because I see them soloing mobs AND instances groups barely do(and sometimes don't) and these casters don't even have any Green Steel items or Epic gear. They get Red Dungeon Alerts, np just keep going. They solo Orchard at level 14 EASILY,like i said no raid gear,reincarnations nada.

I asked another question in another forum about what is better 50ac(would DPS classes like the Ranger and others be able to achieve this AC on normal items like the casters?) or 50% miss chance and most of them went with miss chance so doesn't that nullify the Casters are squishy argument from Turbine?

I guess part of me is just upset with the unbalance of the classes. No class should be able to solo Reavers Raid and several others that easily.

I see videos of Casters doing this on Youtube and have seen several people I know Farm these easily and all the time. I can't play a caster class otherwise I guess I would do it too.

My bad on the 100+ per tick,I was watching 2 people today I know getting 200-400 on a tick average/per mob on non undead,it would drive a Banker insane from all those high numbers.

Okies Ill stop ranting now.

My advice? Play a caster. You'll have a much more realistic view on the class.

hydra_ex
12-28-2009, 11:43 AM
The game is about working together. In a group that works well together 90% of the time party makeup is irrelevant. 9% requires certain abilites (notice I said abilities, not classes) to perform certain actions. The last 1% is new enough that players are still figuring it out. But it's time will come.

Get over the "Caster does this" or "Melee does that". It doesn't matter if your caster does 1000+ damage on a firewall if they don't understand how to use it properly. It doesn't matter if your tank can do 1000+ damage if they don't understand how to use it properly.

Given a choice between a 1000+ damage per tick firewall caster who thinks he is a god and throws them around without thnking and a 500+ damage per tick firewall caster who thinks about what he is doing before he does it, I will take 500 over a 1000 any day of the week, twice on sunday. Same thing with melee. Nothing worse than idiots (be they ranged, melee, caster or any combination thereof) who consistently grab aggro when they are not supposed to.

As for the OP, if you want your mega firewalls, max out your enhancements for fire/cold. Then shop around for fire lore/combustion items (could use a potency item instead of combustion). But don't think every firewall is going to give you mega numbers. Just think when you use it. A caster with a brain is better than a caster with a 1000+ point firewall epeen.

I completely agree. However (at the risk of sounding like a troll), I was making my argument assuming that every player knows what they are doing, and is competent. The OP was asking how he can keep up with the caster. The answer is that he already is, because, on the whole, casters play a support role - he is already better DPS than the caster, and, in the perfect group, is a better choice; it suffices to say that optimally, a melee is better than a caster, yet in most situations, it is irrelevant which to pick.